Brilliant video, very informative. I think the biggest difference is time, Rahm, for example, has probably been hitting Callaway regularly with his fitter for several months, trying and retrying different specs of club heads, shafts, balls, putters and grips. Unless we regular golfers have loads of money to spend on a dozen sessions with a fitter, we can't expect to get as good a fit as a pro. Most companies do a full bag fit in 3-4 hours, Rahm may have spent 3-4 hours over a couple weeks trying different Lob Wedges.
I've spent the past year trying out half a dozen iron sets/shafts and three or four options for pretty much everything in the bag after taking off about 4 years. It's been interesting, expensive and at times grueling process but well worth it now that I look back. My game is better than it's ever been and I have a greater appreciation of all of the components of my bag. My biggest surprises were going from regular to jumbo grips, going back to steel wedge shafts from graphite and going from a 44 1/2 " 40g S flex driver shaft to a 46" 50g X flex choked up 3/4". Golf has truly become an art now. Some of the time, lol.
Very good commentary here and no doubt some gear is proprietary to the player/manufacturer. Understandable for sponsored athletes. Some however have become a haven for collectors. Scotty Cameron puts out all sorts of items labeled “For Tour Use Only” which bring a hefty price tag for those willing to part with their money.
Excellent video and well explained. Spot on for the most part . There are always some exceptions but not many. I play a set of TM R9 TP Tour issue C heads which are smaller than the retail version. I also played a set of R9 Tour issue B heads which were smaller than my C heads. So there can be some differences. The main difference was these look better at address to me than the retail version which looked quite large. Now these are older irons but I haven't found anything I like any better. Irons are the one part of equipment where newer doesn't have as large of effect versus older. You still have to learn to play golf correctly and both physically and mentally. There are no short cuts in this game.
I have a little experience in this area. Around 2005, I purchased a retail version of a driver (a well-known brand) at a golf store. I liked it okay. Some months later I found a 'tour issue' of the same club on eBay. It was stamped with a tour serial number and was used by a professional. It had a premium, upgraded shaft. I thought the shaft alone was worth the offer price so I bought it. The clubheads were definitely different. The retail version had a slightly closed clubface whereas the tour version was square. The tour issue club also had a different sound and feel. It was more solid. I hit the tour issue club a level better than I hit the retail version. So yeah, I have to believe there are differences, at least sometimes.
I think the special sauce of "Tour Issue" really applied to equipment back in the day maybe 30 years ago or so. You can occasionally find tour issue irons from the 80's that are really different then what was available to the general public. I think with that in mind take into account the manufacturing abilities back then. They are nothing like they are now. In todays world a company can pump out copies pretty easily, take Adam Scott for example. He loved the old Titleist 620 blades so much Titleist went ahead and made more just for him. It wasn't so easy back then. I think manufacturers have taken advantage of that with marketing equipment as Tour Issue because of that mystique around the term tour issue. Great explanation of the modern tour issue stuff
it isnt like hockey where the pros are getting the next year's sticks with way better tech custom made and skinned as the current year's, or on the flip side, Quick's leg pads that vaughn still have to make with the old V2 leg channels in for him
Tour issue isn't going to help your game equipment wise. The absolute best thing you can do for your game equipment wise is to get professionally fitted for clubs. Period. Love the content! Keep it up
I've always thought that the biggest difference between the clubs in a tour player's bag and those off the shelf is tolerance. Similar to the Winchester 1 of 100 or 1 of 1000 rifles, the club heads used by the top pros are measured to much tighter tolerances (weight, loft, etc.)..
When it comes to the woods, it's not that they are sorted with tighter tolerances, just that they are spec measured for everything (loft, lie, dimensions, CT, face angle). Iron heads might be weight sorted tighter, but again each iron head will have been weighed also. Shafts and grips can be sorted to tighter tolerances. That does happen at the factory.
Had a few TM heads that were "Tour" - an R540XD Tour TP purported to be from the van and one of Todd Hamilton's spares. Not sure how it was hot melted but it was impossible to hit anything but a fade😂 Had an R7 "shallow" that the face caved on - which bummed me as I loved it - but then TM brought out the R7 HT and I gamed that. Oh - and a couple of early "double dot" Y cutter RAC wedges - before they went into production. Still have one brand new and unbuilt (the FeO2 black raw). Great video - folks should spend their $$$ getting fit first 🤷♂️
Great stuff again. Just subscribed! Really liked your video on the adjustable hosel, you and Tom Wishon from Wishon golf are the only ones that seem to really understand this stuff. I used to follow trottie golf from taylormade tour truck and even he doesn't seem to grasp some of the basic clubmaking fundamentals.
Hot melt ports are also worth mentioning, my tour issue Taylormade M5 3 wood has a hot melt port with the melt closer to the face and it's sitting at the loft of a 4 wood.
tour issue clubs issued used by a tour player vs my clubs used by me? It reminds me of something once said about Bear Bryant, "He can take his and beat yours and he can take yours and beat his"
Nice timing for this popping up. I just saw some tour issue irons on eBay and wondered what the difference is. Apparently not much so I won't be spending extra on them
I think the fundamental difference with “Tour issue” is it’s custom built for the player to very specific criteria. I was fitted last year for a Ping G410 and the fitter advised that any heads that are non standard loft don’t make retail quality control and often end up on the tour vans as some players might want something with a loft that’s different from standard.
Good video, I would add that some rare sets of irons have different offsets, and also iron soles and wedge soles are custom ground to players standards which may not suit you. Customization like hot melting, tour sleeves for loft an lies, loft adjustments make player clubs unique. That level of custom fitting is the real equipment advantage.
All true. Very few are actually different leaving the factory. Changes take place after with input from the player. If you have a good club maker, anyone can get the grinds, hot melt etc changed. Zero offset and other specs like that are completely custom for certain players so I don't like to count that in the tour issue category.
Also the guys on tour have the tour vans adjust any head for their specific sw they like, maybe sound for hot melt to be added and either fade or draw biased hot melt positioning. They have more access to multiple upgraded shafts that we usually don’t get access to for testing but usually can buy. However they get to try everything first and usually we are left to purchase and hope if not fitted by a company that has a lot of choices.
That's all true, however the "tour issue" heads you buy off eBay or similar have not had any of those modifications done to them in most cases. They are just the same heads with measured specs. Like you said, you can have all the same adjustments made to them, you just have to pay for it.
@@EFGMC Taylormade has tour versions of fairway woods with deeper faces, open face angle and low cg that you can't get on their website. I also tried to order one from GolfTown and they said they couldn't order it. The 2017 M2, M4 are notable examples.
@@Mackie17 They have had B versions and sometimes C and D versions also for many of their heads for a while. But I again for this video would group those into a different category. Just like Callaway with the diamond versions of drivers. Now those will often be referred to as tour issue but not always. My main point was there are also plenty of stock design heads labeled as tour issue and that is just a matter of spec measuring.
Question??? The pros hit there irons so often . How do they continue to use the same equipment for years ? Do they remill the grooves? Sand blast the heads and rechrome? By sending them back to the factory ? Or have several several back up sets ?
They usually have several sets when they find one they really like. Of course the big name players can basically get whatever they want even if long discontinued.
Thank you👍 But some Player have a special grind, on there (stock)irons. See Nick Faldo in Mizuno film. Or people says, that Tigers Nike Irons, was forged by Miura with Nike stamp.... What ever🤷🏻♂️ i'm happy with my fitted Mizuno MP18 and the Nippon shafts....🏌️♂️😎
Those are true cases, but individual cases. Most PGA pros aren't using secret forged irons or irons with their name on them. I don't count those types of clubs are tour issue, those are one of a kind.
Great video 👍 A few fine points though.. Justin Thomas actually has his irons nearly at zero offset. Titleist presses/ bends it out some way. Can’t get Titleist to do that for the public. There are a few tour issue grips, they make lightly corded tour velvet cord grip, midsize tour velvet cord, all sizes in a z cord grip ( not options at retail ) Plus access to discontinued grips. Also, just a theory of mine. A lot of the tour issue heads on eBay/online for sale are actually the rejects that never made it onto the tour van. I’ve seen heads on a tour van and all the CT’s were marked between 250 and 253. I’m nitpicking though, awesome video and folks could save a lot of money listening to this video 👍
Good stuff. Thanks for the heads up. Had no idea about the light cord. The others I have seen but not that one, or didn't realize it? Still seems dangerous to have a 253 CT head on tour knowing the number can creep up over time.
@@EFGMC Xander Schaufelle ( don’t know if I spelled that right ) had a hot driver over the limit I believe at a euro event last year ? I think it happens from time to time. Aside from the penalty the player has to endure, the oem probably just shrugs it off.. I need to correct myself though, most heads I saw were right at 250 ct. A few were 253. Some at 245 +/- a few.. The funny thing is I think people are buying the reject tour issue stuff on eBay, etc.. a lot of the time. At the end of the day... better going retail, unless like you said you find exactly what your are looking for specifically.
Love the video...over the years of talking to PGA caddies and asking these exact questions the answers I've heard are a little different than this video...besides the model name you see for the camera , the irons are customized for that player... now this all depends on contracts and where the player is on the world ranking Yada Yada yada..I have played with a former number 1 and we played the same manufacturer his 7 iron was haft inch longer and was made not bent to an 8 iron loft...I did not know there's no rules or regulations on club length besides driver. You can't buy phil mickelson's iron off the shelf yes they are MBs but completely made for phil only.. hense prototype...thats where I think the confusion comes in and when tiger and Taylormade released Tigers clubs that didn't help...lol..Jordan Spaeth wouldn't walk into golf galaxy grab a set of AP2s and play the masters..he spent days with Titleist getting his grinds, lofts ,lies and lengths just right so he could stay on tv...how many sets of AP2s do you think they sold when he was at the top ? I'm a new subscriber and love your content !!!!
Good points. And you're right about Jordan Speith not walking into Golf Galaxy. He gets all his clubs custom fit from Club Champion, or so I've been led to believe from tv!
I appreciate it. I often wonder what makes someone hit the thumbs down button?? Really don't know. Luckily I am not the kind of person who worries about the one unhappy person in the crowd if the majority are happy. If I am helping people and get more good response than bad, I am set! Thanks for your support.
@@EFGMC Quote Einstein. "Stay away from negative people. They find a way to ruin every good plan" Or something along those lines. Keep up the good work.
Kisner uses an older set of irons- will a manufacturer hold sets/heads/shafts in reserve for a player for future use? Or is that up to the player? I can see a manufacturer keeping reserves for the short term, but Kisner might be on his 7th set (or more) in 2021.
They will hold some I think for a big name player but only a few it seems. Daniel Berger has been using the 2011 Taylormade irons and at this point is buying sets off the web to keep as backups.
I agree with everything you said. But I would add this: tour professionals especially the top pros, have a much more extensive fitting process than what an average amateur can get unless they travel to a company’s HQs where testing is accomplished. Tour pros get the desired lie angles measured, lofts adjusted on irons, shafts tipped or hard/soft stepped, length measured exactly to fit the players desire, weighted precisely to a player’s desire, and the grip installed with optimal thickness and layers of tape that may vary from top of the grip to bottom of grip. With that level of customization yes, the tour pros get a completely custom set of clubs compared to the average amateur. I have had several fittings. No fitter has been as thorough and complete as what a tour pro gets…and the tour pro gets it free, while the average amateur pays for it. I’ve been to Club Champion, Sea Island, a top 100 fitter, and various local fitters. None go into the depth that tour pros get unless of course you go to the Callaway HQs in Cali and pay the $3k for the all day fitting. Even then it’s questionable that they would make the same effort as a touring professional.
Came across this topic and video today. In the case of drivers, pros do not use retail because the head would wear out to quickly, obviously the face. Recently Rory was just on the legal limit for the face thickness of his Driver. This pro hits probably 100 drives in practice per day! Face thickness gets thinner the more you hit it, hence drivers can go dead. Pros use drivers where face thickness is thicker than what us mere mortals can buy. If we had their equipment distance of our drives would drop off as less spring. But with an average pro swinging at between 115 - 130 mph distance doesnt drop off to the extent of what we would experience. The older the face the bigger distance they get. Hence why someone can buy a new driver and get the face shaved to thinner making it non conforming but creating more spring off the face equating to bigger distances
Great video. I would think that tour issue clubs just have a higher level of quality control. I think it’s pretty well known that even the best club makers have certain “manufacturers tolerances” that they allow to get through inspection and onto the shelf. Wether it’s stated loft or lie or both on the clubs I think it’s a little difficult for a manufacturer to make 10,000 driver heads that are all exactly 10.5 degrees with a lie of 58.5. Tour Issue and Tour Van clubs are really specked out to what the player wants and tour pros are most likely not using “made for” shafts.
Not so much spec'ed out as sorted for the players I think. They measure a whole bunch of heads and then have the specs to match up to a certain golfers. Iron heads are just sorted to where they should be as far as weight, loft and lie. And as you said, aftermarket shafts in all their clubs.
I've been trying to get my hands on a Taylormade 16.5 degree tour head. I have an Aeroburner and I LOVE how easy it is to hit, but I HATE how closed it sits at address. It would be my dream fairway wood if I could get it to sit neutral.
@@danscanlon4208 It sits closed as well. The Sim and Sim 2 16.5's only come in the D-Type(Draw Bias) in their off the rack offerings. All their 16.5 degree heads sit closed unless they're tour issue. Taylormade is kind of the exception to this video. Their tour issue heads have low and forward centre of gravity for less spin, smaller heads with deeper faces and they sit more neutral or open than their off the rack stuff.
@@Mackie17 Taylormade’s website shows Sim2 Max Fairway (regular, not D-type) in 3HL 16.5 degree. Not sure if it’s stocked in stores, but you can order it through their website. You are correct it is not available in the Sim2 Titanium fairway wood. That only comes in the 15 degree and 13.5 “rocket” version.
That head I believe has some forward shaft lean that makes it fall closed. This is more advanced club building, but you could pull the shaft and shim the front side of the hosel to move the shaft into a more neutral position. May also require shaving down the back side of the shaft tip to get it to fit correctly. If the closed face really bothers you, this could work. Full disclosure, it could also ruin the shaft so might be more of a last result deal. Could also just add some lead tape to the rear toe side and see if that cancels any of the face closure.
@@EFGMC Yeah the shaft I have is a $500 shaft so I don't think I want to mess with it to that extent, but I just got some lead tape today so hopefully that will help!
I have a pair of Taylormade SLDR drivers one standard one Tour, my Tour issue is 430 instead of 460, the Tour issue is more workable,( I assume that is face roll), but also way less forgiving, when my swing is on it's great , when not I bag the 460cc standard and play straight shots, as with blades as compared to game improvement irons ,unless you want to shape shots there is no advantage to tour model drivers or blades, but if you want to play draws, fades and stingers you want the clubs you can work!
One other tidbit of info on tour issue heads. They are the “b” stock heads. Off the rack heads have to be as close as possible to being identical to each other so 2 of the same club are exactly the same. The tour issue heads are off spec by loft, weight center or gravity, lie etc. a pro needs specific specs that are often not the stock spec. Like a 9 deg at 8.1 with a heavier head for higher swing weight or to better balance a shorter length. A seeet spot that’s higher on the face for a lower spin launch. Tour issue heads are spec rejects.
Yes, perfectly said. The problem is I think most consumers think the opposite and believe that the Tour Issue ones are more spec exact without understanding this.
@@EFGMC , loved your video. Very informative for the average consumer. Regular people often don’t believe us when we try to tell them this information. I work in retail clubfitting and sales. Been fitting since the late 90’s. We get tours of the big companies Tour departments since we’re near Carlsbad, Ca. where they all are. We get great behind the scenes information while doing product training when the new equipment comes in. Keep up the good work.
Great video. Thx The only true tour issue clubs are putters and Henrik Stensons grips. Been trying to get golf pride to answer my emails requesting his full cord tour wraps unsuccessfully now for about 5 years. No I don’t want to play your crappy multi compound grips golf pride :)
They do keep old stock of some grips for the tour guys I wish we could get our hands on. I miss the old half cord tour wrap! And agree, don't like the MMC grips at all.
A few things to note, the material used in Scotty Cameron tour putters are different than your ordinary off the rack Scotty Cameron. The tour players use gss which is German stainless steel and the off the rack putters use a less expensive stainless steel. Have never tried a gss but from what I understand it has a softer feel and offers a little more feedback. Also yes you can get upgraded shafts in your driver but there are differences. Say you wanted an upgraded project x shaft in your driver, they offer mass produced project x shafts for more money and they offer the same shaft that is hand crafted for even more money. The hand crafted is the same shaft but built with higher tolerances for a more consistent shaft. Also before the Taylor made m6 driver the tolerances in driver building were not the same. One driver might have a cor of 1.5 while others might have one of 1.46. The company’s would test drivers out and only give the tour pros the ones with the highest cor so they were as close to the legal limit as possible. That’s why the m6 was so good because not every driver they produce was right at the legal limit. As for what material irons are made out of I am not too sure, they could be using more exotic metals like the Scotty Cameron gss does for example but I’m not too sure
Thanks for the comment. The Tour Only Scottys are not all GSS as only certain ones actually use that material vs 303 Stainless or other. The Tour Only putters do come out of the Scotty studio vs the retail heads that are mass produced as you stated. Shafts get extremely tricky when discussing differences. Anyone can get the same shafts as the tour pros use in 9 out of 10 cases. If you custom order a club, the OEM will have numerous high end shaft options. They won't have everything, but you will usually be able to get the most popular stuff on tour. So if you want a Fuji Ventus w/ Velocore, you can pay the $350 uncharge and get it. It gets confusing because Fuji also makes a non-Velocore version which is much cheaper. As far as driver limits go, you can go on eBay and find M1, M2, M3 etc heads (though harder to find them at this point) that all show the exact same range of CT scores as the most current Sim2 heads. This idea that these heads are hotter now is marketing. Now some newer heads may have a larger hi CT face area vs older heads but it won't be by much and the max remains the same.
btw, some of the irons are very much different as well. tour issue irons are with completely pressed out offsets (Apex pro players do that a lot as stock option has too much offset for tour guys. Thats why they have Apex pro “dot“ versions. Similar is true for other manufacturers).
True. Less offset, more grooves, different sole grinds are all options. That doesn't make them better or worse though, just different. Also I did a build a month or so back with some Apex Pro tour issue heads. These heads however were not the dot or double dot, just the standard retail style head. So in this case you had "tour issue" in name only. Assuming the specs were all right on for loft and lie though I didn't check them. The weights were all exact.
scotty putters have ones which are tour issue only and are mega expensive! Balls are different though, was able to get some off a pro and the skin was different on the outer layer from what I could tell.. the balls where callaway ++ balls. Am open to be told otherwise cheers.
Scotty tour putters are made in the Scotty studio where as the retails are made in a factory somewhere else. Some of them use different materials (ie GSS which are the super expensive ones). Not sure about the balls. Will need to do some research into that.
@@EFGMC Is that what makes them unique to tour players as well as cost? I have a scotty myself and love it. As for the balls that's only what I found from getting them off a pro but that doesn't prove anything. I also got some of the defective ones which they produced.. they went everywhere! P.S new Sub
@@willo283 The ones with the circle T logo are made in the studio and cost more for that reason. The GSS putters are even more because of the material. Thanks for the support!
Well some clubs have hot melts and shafts that aren't for sale to the general public that have more exotic materials used. You never touched base on that. Obviously certain putters from Cameron and such use better grade grade stainless steels that for sure aren't offered to the public. Hefty price tags as well.
I think the idea is that, with the measurements specified on those stickers, you know exactly what you’re getting as opposed to the variations in the OEM’s tolerances (which is a bit disconcerting). I would also think that the “tour issue” designation might mean the club is far less likely to be a counterfeit.
I would just say that from the measurements I have done on off the rack drivers, the specs have come out to be very consistent overall. The idea that they aren't is something pushed by people trying to sell Tour Issue or "high end fitter/builders" who want you to believe they are giving you a better end product.
The fujikura motore f1 is not an older shaft but a recent offering from fujikura. At least the one Kisner uses is the latest iteration of the motore f1.
You're right. These are the Motore X which are current. My mind jumps back to the old versions from 10 years ago always. I still see those often, less of the new ones. Good catch.
Great video! I’ve purchased tour issue clubs before but once I discovered it really was only about the specs I realized it’s just not worth it. A quick note on the Tours measuring COR, I’ve read that they only measure drivers so some guys have hotter fairway woods. Perhaps that why so many guys on tour stick with 3 woods for a decade.
Thanks. Yeah, I'm not sure if and how many fairway woods get checked for conformity. I think it's also the case that the OEMs aren't strongly recommending switching 3 woods every season like they do with the drivers. If it wasn't written into contracts, not sure the pros would be changing drivers nearly as often either.
That makes sense. Scott Fawcett recently tested his 20 year old Callaway Big Bertha vs his newer Mavrik and the difference in distance was insignificant. I guess marketing dollars drive r&d and profits obviously.
@@diogeneslantern18 I’m not surprised. I’ve heard club fitters say when they see someone coming in with TM Burners they know they won’t be able I beat it. Surprised TM hasn’t brought that face under a new name.
@@arthurford829 it's truly a titan of the 2000s. They are "relatively" common for an "old" club in that I've seen 3 other players with one in the bag, and all 3 of those players (and I suppose myself included, if I do say so myself) were pretty serious players. If it works, it works...
I realize this is an older video and this is off topic but I want to get into club building I have researched it for quite some time now but wanted to ask what are the first tools you would invest in first what is absolutely necessary. And to comment ont he video thanks for making it btw doesnt a face get hotter the more you play it i know thats not exactly what you were getting at but just a thought I had while listening if so a pro plays so much every day i would imagine over time the face of their clubs wearing thin would make them hotter. idk maybe thats rediculous to think
I need to do a video about what you need to start building clubs. Second question, yes the faces to flex more over time and can becoming non conforming.
First, Pros get the most spec conforming Tour Edition line heads. These are very hard to find but MUST by the rules of the USGA and R&A be made available to the general public. Off-the-shelf woods can have their loft off by as much as 1*. When I purchase Tom Wishon woods I get “hand selected” ones. This way the spec matches what I want. Secondarily, Pro’s are fitted for the exact shaft for their swing. We’re talking $300+ shafts vs. the $50 OEM ones. Lastly the wood heads are hot glued to specifically balance them to exactly fit their swing. Yes every part is technically available on the retail market but the Pro’s finished club cost is 3-4 times the cost of an off-the-rack club. Pros clubs are custom in every way.
Don't disagree with anything you said. I said the tour issue heads are available in different places but not at your local golf shop, and that if you order an aftermarket upgrade shaft in the same model, with the same specs for flex and weight, it will also be the same. Hotmelt is something anyone can have done for $10-$15 by a knowledgable club maker. I realize I didn't get into custom grinds on irons but was trying to keep the video at a reasonable length.
@@EFGMC I am a custom club maker. A few years ago I was receiving Tour Edge Exotic woods that were played on the PGA Tour. The average shaft was $400-$500. As far as hot melt you need head mapping to install it corrected and that info is not public knowledge. As far as irons go custom grinds plus Loft & Lie adjustments are readily available to everyone. As with woods the shaft selection and setup is key.
@@briansgolfworks4991 Yes, some of the shafts can be more expensive, but my point is if you want a Fujikura Ventus just like everyone and their cousin is playing on tour right now, you can get that exact shaft either from any OEM or any number of golf component retailers.
@@EFGMC That’s not always true. Many OEM’s spec their shafts from suppliers. They may say Ventis but they’re TaylorMade’s spec for the Ventis. Usually this is a cost factor. Manufacturers are not installing a $100 cost shaft ($200 retail) into a $400 club. OEM shafts are generally not the same quality as the after market version.
@@briansgolfworks4991 There are different versions of some shafts in some cases and the shaft makers and OEMs may make them difficult to distinguish between the two, but if you order a Ventus w/ VeloCore from an OEM, you are getting the "real" shaft. If you weren't, the OEMs would be getting calls from the BBB. It is important for consumers to understand this so that they aren't confused by a Fuji Ventus vs. Ventus VeloCore, or Mitsu Tensei AV vs. CK vs. CK Pro.
Before seeing the video, I think they do. That is the tools of the trade. If anything makes a difference, it may be the tolerances when building for pros than building for a weekend warrior.
Face angle is a serious variable on tour issue wood heads. Some iron sets are forged but stamped as non forged retail edition! Generally, tour issue wood heads are not good for everyone. Like taylormade TW iron set is definitely not for everyone, it was individually designed for Tiger Woods
Thank you for the video, it’s clear and perfectly explained. But a lot of players have special irons or putters, built with different materials or by a specific manufacturer. For example, some Apex MB are built by Miura, so we don’t really have the same feeling and quality. There is also Scotty Cameron with GSS putter
Thanks for watching. Totally agree. But I wouldn't put a German Stainless Scotty in the Tour Issue category or Miura blades made for other OEMs. I feel like those are individual pieces and should be counted likewise. I am mainly talking about eBay or other online retailer heads labeled Tour Issue and commanding a premium price because of it, not because those clubs are different or better but just because they are technically Tour Issue.
That was going around a few years ago that all the pros were using 44 1/2 or less. Some were. At this point though, most are at least 45 and just trying to max it out, less worried about accuracy b/c the stats show distance is most important.
I know a player that has played on the European tour this year (he has no club contract but access to the tour vans) He has just been on e bay to buy two TM M2 heads as he cannot get any better numbers off any newer clubs he wants a couple of spares
Those Circle T stamp Scotty's are actually made in a different location (Scotty Studio) than the standard retail versions. What difference that makes, probably hard to say.
Hey AJ, Can you add a bit on your loft sleeve adjustment videos. I am interested in what using a right hand adapter in a left handed club does. In particular with the ping adapters is flat still flat or does that now become standard and the standard become flat?
And is also actually a neutral face, where the off the rack head is 2 degrees closed even though it says neutral, to help the average golfer who usually slices
From what I can tell the real difference is that the pros have their clubs specked to fit their swing style. So a guy like you would analyze their swing and design them a club that would fit them perfectly. My clubs for instance are probably a bit longer than they need to be considering I'm a bit on the short side of what your typical club is designed for lengthwise that is.
Having them spec'd out on the tour van lets them find what they need faster. Certain player likes x loft with y face angle etc, they can pull those heads for them and be built up quickly.
Here’s what I want to know. My driver has a $100 projectX smoke shaft in it . An Aldila rogue silver shaft costs $425 bucks. How much difference can a premium priced shaft like that make for a guy that drives a ball 250 -260 ?
If the shaft fits you and you get good distance and dispersion with it, then probably little or none, maybe worse. Just because a shaft is expensive, does not mean it's better and definitely doesn't mean it's better for you. The key is knowing what specs work for you and finding shafts with those specs. As to that specific shaft your referring to, the Rogue Silver that's $425 is really not going to show any benefits unless you swing very hard as the extra money is from high price materials stabilizing the shaft.
@@EFGMC thanks so much for responding. When I got fitted for my driver , the only shafts I got to try were the stock shafts for the Epic drivers . It’s my fault for not asking if they had others though. I’ve just always wondered, what if . lol
@@lakedog3616 I understand. Best advise I can give is, if it ain't broke, don't fix. You see many PGA guys switch out their gamer shaft all the time for the hot new shaft only to end up back with their old faithful within a few weeks. Take note.
I’m a golf tech junkie. To me the sleeves that adjusted the loft are different. Irons are mostly raw steel or the hollow constructed irons are not. The pros don’t need the distance. Some pros don’t like the adjustable hosel and will request standard feral shafts.
There are a few who use a bonded hosel design. Tiger held out for a long time while with Nike. At this point most of the pros are using the adjustable hosel, though like you said some are using a "tour" sleeve with less angle in it. Mainly think of Taylor Made because they use a 2 degree adapter and the tour is 1 I think. Callaway has the green dot adapters though that is really just a LH adapter going into the RH head. Just switch the writing on it.
At this point anyone can get whatever shaft they want in a driver so if you want the shaft used by player X on tour, you can usually get it. Only a couple exceptions usually based on heavier graphite shafts. Frequency you can get done on your own. Spine I don't worry about. Important thing is getting shafts with good overall radial consistency (aka bends the same regardless of which way it's orientated). That is one thing you are paying for in theory with aftermarket shafts.
golf is one of those sports where theres not really like idk, a massive range of performance improvements in gear, in other sorts like hockey youll see pro level stuff being super customised, modified to be more protective or better, normally actually the next year's model skinned as the current year's, or whatever, golf gear now is pretty much already at the limit of what's legal, so what they make for the public and what they make for the pros is basically the same thing, just goes through better QA
I can tell you that I made the mistake of buying a set of TaylorMade r9 tp irons a few years back, and found that the TP's had higher lofts. I lost a club in distance. Clearly a tour player's higher swing speeds allow for more loft.
TP stuff in general was for the lower handicap higher speed players though some was more marketing than actual tour specs. You might have had a mis spec-ed set as the lofts were pretty standard for that style of head and that model year.
Tour players forged irons( regardless of manufacturer) are forged by endo. Retail clubs are not, other than a few jdm brands, and those that are forged by endo, are forged in their Thailand plant. Tour clubs, forged by endo in their japan plant in Niigata.
Tennis pros all use "paint job" pro stock racquets, racquets painted to look like the latest retail offerings. After this became publicized, the racquet companies had to change their marketing claims from "used by Pro X" to "endorsed by Pro X". The pro stock racquets are made at special low volume facilities different from the Chinese mass production. While this video claims that the golf club differences are mainly in terms of weight specs and tightness to the spec, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that pros are getting better and higher quality clubs. Wasn't it an open secret that Tigers Nike clubs were made by a specialty forge in Japan, and not available to the public or anyone else for that matter?
He’s also ignoring the fact that tour pros get better shafts, better fittings, and tour heads. Bryson had Cobra making him a driver for the Masters, obviously this is not available to retail. For Callaway, you get Red and Green dot lie angle adapters, the Diamond heads for Power Fades and smaller driver heads. To take one club and go “Nope, not different!” is dishonest. Bridgestone used to make specialty formulas for Tiger Wood’s ball because Nike didn’t make golf balls.
I think overall you’re right but there is a big difference in calling something “tour issued” circle T putters for example vs. tour level custom fit. Pros do get access to club fitting and club options that the average and even better player doesn’t, and they get access to club specs that normal golfers don’t. Titleist is not going to make me a set of clubs with a specific toe grind or custom profile with the specific CG weighting that I want because I’m not a top level pro, but, they sure will for guys on tour. Just because Titleist’s 620mb irons are stamped on the club for JT doesn’t mean they are the same as what you can get through a retailer off the rack. The clubs conceptually aren’t really any different, it’s just the customization options are much more detailed vs, length, lie angle, loft and shaft. What I described above is literally how all the wedge grind options became available. (Back in the 90s and 2000s ) these options were tour issue only unless you really knew what you were doing as a club maker and player.
I agree with all of that. I choose to put some of that stuff into a different category since it's not even tour issue as much as just plain custom for an individual golfer. I also wonder how far down the money list you can be and still ask Titleist to make you a set of clubs from ground up. Guessing there are only a handful of big name recognition players who could actually get everything they want.
Tour pros get hand selected equipment, access to prototypes, and lots of times the "whats in your bag" that you see on Golf WRX or similar, does actually have the right information. Prototype shafts hidden with common graphics are a very common thing on tour. Rickie fowler uses a "standard" cobra driver but it has its own CG characteristics... so its not actually the same driver. And its not available for normal people to buy. So yes PGA Tour Players use better equipment. because they get more specific eqiupment or in many cases... equipment specifically made for them and then hidden with normal or common graphics so people cant really see that they have something different.
Well they are better FOR the tour pro. Reason why would be that they have tour trucks that can literally perfect the club exactly to the spec a tour player wants. You cannot get that same treatment of your clubs unless you get a special invite or are a tour professional.
Interesting AJ, good info. I'm interested in what tolerances the OEM's use for lofts mostly in their off the shelf clubs. I had my 716 Titleist irons loft checked by my Pro recently and only had 1 club which was exactly what Titleist said it should be, 48°, the others were as much as 2.5° out. OK, I know that I had been using them for a while, and they could have gone out of "spec", but it got me wondering how close to stated lofts they were when I bought them new. All the lies were wrong too, and I had them custom fitted to 1° upright, so maybe it's a con? I've not long bought a Ping G410 driver and fairway wood, can I easily measure the lofts without the equipment you have? Maybe a video showing how if it's possible please, thanks 👍
Hard to say on the irons since you had been hitting them. Have never been able to spec check new irons out of the box. Hoping the channel gets big enough where OEMs will start sending me equipment to test. They do spec check iron and wedge heads on tour vans but you don't usually see them sold online since they are all individual and not in sets. As far as measuring goes, I did a video about using my iPhone to measure loft, lie and length. The loft and lie were pretty close on a 3 wood I did. Woods and especially drivers are really tricky to measure however because of the face roll. 1/4 inch up or down the face can change loft 1.5 degrees so it's really difficult to say what the exact loft is. If you haven't watched, here is the iPhone vid and a vid about impact height on driver. ruclips.net/video/r9SAU9zNBFk/видео.html ruclips.net/video/mw1SHxqZEBY/видео.html
@@EFGMC Thanks for replying, I did watch those videos when you put them out. I don't have an iphone, and I'm not sure whether the accuracy would be worth it anyway. I have a home made club "vice", L shape, which I can clamp the driver into and get the shaft square to the face, ( not leaning backwards or forwards), and have tried an adjustable spirit level with angles on, but it relies on getting the bubble exact. I need some kind of protractor or angle finder of some sort I think.
@@paulmilsom1346 I have one of these I use sometimes, and I can bring it to the course. Can also find on Amazon pretty sure. www.golfworks.com/golf-club-loft-and-lie-protractor/p/gwpro/
To me the real difference is the fit and understanding what works best for the individual. They have the ability to get perfectly fit for their clubs for their swings , game etc. Its like a suit off the racks fit ( still can look very good if you look for awhile and try on till you find that nice perfect fit ) against a taylor made suit fitted to a T just for you that day ( you look as good as possible with this ability ) this is difference. So don't buy tour issue either take your time trying clubs or spend that money getting fit if you play enough and consider it worth it for your game
@@paulmcgee1867 Correct. All that stuff is altered after. Custom grinds will sometimes be done during manufacturing of irons. Lofts and lies on irons can be changed at any time so you don't need to know the exact specs out the factory door, unlike a driver where you can't go and bend it around except for the adjustable hosel changes you can make.
The difference is the pros are playing clubs that are weighted for their swing. Most on tour play clubs that are heavier in weight and swing weight than what you can just buy in the store or order. I guarantee they are not playing D2 drivers off the shelf. They may play D4 or D5 but also the head is heavier to match heavier shaft and probably a plug to add weight by grip end. When you have a heavier club you swing smoother and hit sweet spot more often. The players on tour are chasing speed, but they are chasing it with the heavier clubs, not buy buying a 40 gram shaft.
Taylormade has a "tour" hosel that I believe is set at 1 degree instead of 2. Callaway has the green dot adapter which is just a left handed adapter relabeled with RH designations. This allows you to loft down 2 degrees and up 1, the opposite of the standard version. Not sure who else makes one.
Hitting a near exact spec can be important. I have a Callaway 816 Alpha DBD Driver and Fairways. Admittedly that is an older model. GolfWrx did a driver center of gravity test on almost every brand made in various years ( mygolfspy.com/2019-driver-center-of-gravity-and-moi-report/ ). Every one of the 2016 Callaway drivers marked 9.0 was measured to be 10.4 degrees of loft when in the neutral position. Whether Callaway hand-picked these for Golfwrx I don't know. In any case, I wanted 10.5 degrees so I ordered the 9.0 marked driver from Callaway Pre-owned and it works great with my swing and specs. For that reason using Tour Issue heads can be helpful. 9.0 to 10.4 is a significant variance. I would be hitting my drives too low if it really were 9 degrees of loft. I dusagree with your statement that retail issue club actual specs vary little from the marked specs. I used to work for a Golf Digest rated Top 100 custom club fitter named Leith Anderson. We would measure the heads. In one case years ago I found a TaylorMade 12.5 degree marked driver head that was really over 17 degrees of loft - more than a 3wood! I thought that couldn't be right so I got Leith to measure it. He agreed that 17 degrees was impossible - until he measured it and verified what I found. That amount of difference is a rarity, but any significant difference can cause issues.
Most Tour issue clubs are generally blueprinted, and the tolerances are much tighter that the mass produced. There is a little cheating on tour and that' custom clubs from another manufacturer stamped with the brand they are being paid to play. Thats why sometimes they look weird
True. So many different types of heads out there, hard to quantify them all. Also so much misinformation. My main tip is just don't go paying extra for something just because the words tour issue show up in the description.
Hate to say yes they do 100%, perhaps not limits (how hot the driver face is for example) but wedges/putters certainly the customisation options they have just aren't available to the general public, on wedges unique bounce/grind options just aren't available to the public
Most of that work is done after the initial manufacturing. So if you find a knowledgable club maker or know what you're doing, you can get any grind you want.
@@EFGMC yes and no, any work you do yourself/aftermarket voids any warranty so it better to get done from the manufacturer which isn't available to most people, vokey offer wedge works which is common tour player grind options but still not 100% adjustable, that's where the difference lies
Let's never forget that tour pros are a little more than traveling salesman for the golf industry. The golf industry wants to make sure that the tour pros do as well as they can with the products that the golf industry provides them.
Little more than traveling salesmen? Name a salesman of any kind that is professional in the use of the product he sells. Those guys aren't selling anything but entertainment. If you buy something they use with the idea that it will make you play like them, that's on you but to diminish their level of skill by calling them traveling salesmen is just ridiculous.
Erik Anders Lang asked this question when he visited the Miura factory. Basically, some Titleist custom orders were fulfilled by Miura. Check EAL’s adventures in golf video out for the details.
Nice video. I used to play some high level competitive golf and got tour issue shafts because the spec is more exact than standard issue shafts. It's just slight differences in manufacturing like you said, and tour issue shafts are measured to be super close to the ideal spec and some are spot on. There is just super minuscule differences in weight that can sometimes be felt. I've also read some weird things about Tour drivers. There's a good chance some of them are much hotter than retail drivers. Here's an article www.pgatour.com/equipmentreport/2019/07/24/justin-thomas-speaks-driver-ct-testing-calls-frequent-tests-by-manufacturers-equipment-clubs-xander-schauffele.html where they talk about the testing and how faces thin out over time and get "hot". And also the CT tolerance is +- 18 which sounds a bit much to me lol. They also say their driver faces start to crack. How long are they playing these things, one season maximum? I'd say the face was probably a little thinner at the start compared to retail because they don't want everyones faces breaking after that little play. Just my thoughts, but when I see the trackman ball speeds these days I don't really buy that they are just strong or whatever, hot faces. But its a win win for the golf industry, long drives with the shiny new driver = more sales so why wouldn't they give their pros something a little hotter?
I personally think the club head speeds are under measured on PGA tour as the smash factor numbers for the top guys are all over 1.50 which is not mathematically possible unless they all have non-conforming heads. I think all the tour guys have heads that are over the 238 limit but under the 257 tolerance. The real difference between the two numbers is very small in terms of yardage. If we are being honest, the club itself has the least to do with distance. Modern golf ball is big difference.
@@EFGMC Right on with the golf ball. They are too stable in the wind, too long, and don't curve enough. I remember watching all the guys at the US Open at pebble and everyone hit the ball dead straight, I think we've lost a lot of the artistry in golf. I've noticed particularly the Tp5's are really stable. I also think the shafts, particularly in woods can make a huge difference. Tour pros being able to choose the exact shafts to achieve optimum launch and spin also contributes to the huge carry numbers. I think in the next 10 years we will see a change in regulations to limit distance. It's sad how many golf courses are becoming too short for competitive players. Back to the balata! (or a ball like it) I think the easiest way to "fix" the game on the tour is a ball change. But of course there's no reason to limit amateur balls and I don't advocate for any change in recreational golf.
Go back and look at the John Rahm video. Where he was breaking down his driver swing and how he hits a fade. And the efficiency popped up…. 1.51. Look it up you will find it. CONSPIRACY! But who really knows.
Just want to add one comment here…I have 3 different tour issue R1 driver head….These days, the serial numbers are same as retail. But some old heads have tour issue serial numbers, like TD2xxx or TD8xxx. Retail R1 driver is more like oval shape head and somehow tour players didn’t like it. So tour issue R1 head is more traditional head shape and smaller size. I have TD3xxx, TD2xxx and TD8xx. I believe TD3 serial is higher loft and TD2 is standard 9 to 10 degree and TD8 serial is much smaller head, 410cc head. TD2 and TD3 is 440cc. What I heard was that TD8 is designed for Sergio Garcia because he liked smaller head. I still have them and honestly…I don’t see any difference, I don’t hit any further than retail. I collect them because it has different shape than retail. But these days, they look exactly same. Retail, tour issue…no difference…just fancy title and bunch of spec numbers…
They don't usually get heads more than a month or two before retail unless it's a prototype, in which case that's not Tour Issue. You can see when a head goes onto the USGA / R&A conforming list right at the start of the year, retail usually released in Feb.
I value the rich information in your video. But I do not agree that the Pros play with the same with what we ordinary public. Of course, I know very little to nothing compared to your knowledge as a professional club maker. But let me state the fact some years ago upon receiving a can of Slazenger tennis balls from ATP Tennis evens & found that the balls were absolutely superior in terms of quality & playability. In this connection, the Pros in whatever sports will be given different treatments/equipment compared to the general public.
Some tour issue driver heads use a different metal that is harder so they don't crack the face. TM tour issue heads are lighter to allow for hot melt adjustments while keeping swing weight to spec. COR is probably at or close to max on tour. The reason you don't see them on eBay is because they are being used on tour. Hard to find a tour issue head on eBay with a high COR. There's a reason for that. Tour issue irons if blades tend to be forged away from China and with a softer metal. Finally - Tour Issue shafts for woods have a much tighter variance to flex strength. At least back in 201*s. An X flex retail is not an X flex tour issue. And that's probably the most important aspect fitting wise - Making sure your driver and woods get the right kick due to correct frequency. But upgraded shafts these days are probably just as good as tour issue these days. Technology has gotten better in the manufacture process.
The irons are less often referred to as tour issue because for them it's just a matter of loft, lie, and weight and all those things can be adjusted where as the starting loft or lie on a driver can't really be changed other than with the hosel adjustments.
@@EFGMC I'm thinking in those tour players who plays hardly modified lofts and lies like Bryson (strong) and Tiger (weak) even this zero offset heads from Ricky Fowler for instance. Correct me if Im wrong but in theory you can't bent a retail head even if forged +/- 2º lofts and lies so understand some tour players plays made to order maybe even in different grade of carbon steel to allow such resilience. Thanks for your answers!
@@amgpuma A cast head you can't usually get more than 1-2 degrees from, but a forged head or carbon steel cast wedge like a Vokey will usually go 3-4 degrees no problem. Now you do run into other issues when bending lofts that far with bounce and offset but it can be done. And you can always get things bent or ordered from a factory where they can get more out of them.
@@EFGMC Yep, good thing about Ping is sure they are cast but can be adjusted like a forged thanks to that hosel notch and tool they made with their dot color system
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Brilliant video, very informative.
I think the biggest difference is time, Rahm, for example, has probably been hitting Callaway regularly with his fitter for several months, trying and retrying different specs of club heads, shafts, balls, putters and grips.
Unless we regular golfers have loads of money to spend on a dozen sessions with a fitter, we can't expect to get as good a fit as a pro. Most companies do a full bag fit in 3-4 hours, Rahm may have spent 3-4 hours over a couple weeks trying different Lob Wedges.
Unlimited time and resources are always helpful!
I've spent the past year trying out half a dozen iron sets/shafts and three or four options for pretty much everything in the bag after taking off about 4 years. It's been interesting, expensive and at times grueling process but well worth it now that I look back. My game is better than it's ever been and I have a greater appreciation of all of the components of my bag. My biggest surprises were going from regular to jumbo grips, going back to steel wedge shafts from graphite and going from a 44 1/2 " 40g S flex driver shaft to a 46" 50g X flex choked up 3/4". Golf has truly become an art now. Some of the time, lol.
Very good commentary here and no doubt some gear is proprietary to the player/manufacturer. Understandable for sponsored athletes. Some however have become a haven for collectors. Scotty Cameron puts out all sorts of items labeled “For Tour Use Only” which bring a hefty price tag for those willing to part with their money.
Excellent video and well explained. Spot on for the most part . There are always some exceptions but not many. I play a set of TM R9 TP Tour issue C heads which are smaller than the retail version. I also played a set of R9 Tour issue B heads which were smaller than my C heads. So there can be some differences. The main difference was these look better at address to me than the retail version which looked quite large. Now these are older irons but I haven't found anything I like any better. Irons are the one part of equipment where newer doesn't have as large of effect versus older. You still have to learn to play golf correctly and both physically and mentally. There are no short cuts in this game.
I have a little experience in this area. Around 2005, I purchased a retail version of a driver (a well-known brand) at a golf store. I liked it okay. Some months later I found a 'tour issue' of the same club on eBay. It was stamped with a tour serial number and was used by a professional. It had a premium, upgraded shaft. I thought the shaft alone was worth the offer price so I bought it. The clubheads were definitely different. The retail version had a slightly closed clubface whereas the tour version was square. The tour issue club also had a different sound and feel. It was more solid. I hit the tour issue club a level better than I hit the retail version. So yeah, I have to believe there are differences, at least sometimes.
Wonder where they put the extra weight..
The sound was probably due to the shaft.
It is possible the face and lie angles were different though.
GREAT HEARING YOU and your sensible approach to clubs. I subscribed and am looking over your other vids. Thanks
Thanks for the support!
I had to turn it all the way up to 11
I think the special sauce of "Tour Issue" really applied to equipment back in the day maybe 30 years ago or so. You can occasionally find tour issue irons from the 80's that are really different then what was available to the general public. I think with that in mind take into account the manufacturing abilities back then. They are nothing like they are now. In todays world a company can pump out copies pretty easily, take Adam Scott for example. He loved the old Titleist 620 blades so much Titleist went ahead and made more just for him. It wasn't so easy back then. I think manufacturers have taken advantage of that with marketing equipment as Tour Issue because of that mystique around the term tour issue. Great explanation of the modern tour issue stuff
it isnt like hockey where the pros are getting the next year's sticks with way better tech custom made and skinned as the current year's, or on the flip side, Quick's leg pads that vaughn still have to make with the old V2 leg channels in for him
Tour issue isn't going to help your game equipment wise. The absolute best thing you can do for your game equipment wise is to get professionally fitted for clubs. Period. Love the content! Keep it up
I've always thought that the biggest difference between the clubs in a tour player's bag and those off the shelf is tolerance. Similar to the Winchester 1 of 100 or 1 of 1000 rifles, the club heads used by the top pros are measured to much tighter tolerances (weight, loft, etc.)..
When it comes to the woods, it's not that they are sorted with tighter tolerances, just that they are spec measured for everything (loft, lie, dimensions, CT, face angle). Iron heads might be weight sorted tighter, but again each iron head will have been weighed also.
Shafts and grips can be sorted to tighter tolerances. That does happen at the factory.
Like a x100 tour verse reg x100...is only tolerance....nothing else.
Had a few TM heads that were "Tour" - an R540XD Tour TP purported to be from the van and one of Todd Hamilton's spares. Not sure how it was hot melted but it was impossible to hit anything but a fade😂
Had an R7 "shallow" that the face caved on - which bummed me as I loved it - but then TM brought out the R7 HT and I gamed that.
Oh - and a couple of early "double dot" Y cutter RAC wedges - before they went into production. Still have one brand new and unbuilt (the FeO2 black raw).
Great video - folks should spend their $$$ getting fit first 🤷♂️
Lot of classic stuff there. Takes me back!
Great stuff again. Just subscribed! Really liked your video on the adjustable hosel, you and Tom Wishon from Wishon golf are the only ones that seem to really understand this stuff. I used to follow trottie golf from taylormade tour truck and even he doesn't seem to grasp some of the basic clubmaking fundamentals.
It's pretty surprising how many people who are in the golf equipment business don't know some of this stuff.
Thanks for the support!
@@EFGMC for sure. I mean it definitely isn't super straightforward and the OEMs marketing pamphlets don't help much with the confusion.
@@kourt2469 Maybe I can convince the OEMs to just put a link to my youtube video on all their stuff. 😀
Hot melt ports are also worth mentioning, my tour issue Taylormade M5 3 wood has a hot melt port with the melt closer to the face and it's sitting at the loft of a 4 wood.
I have seen "Tour Issue" clubs sold with open weight ports. That would also be something to be aware of if looking at a tour issue head.
@@EFGMC Absolutely, if it had been previously used with melt in the port it could be a very wrong fit!
tour issue clubs issued used by a tour player vs my clubs used by me? It reminds me of something once said about Bear Bryant, "He can take his and beat yours and he can take yours and beat his"
Thanks AJ! Very informative and thanks for educating us.
Nice timing for this popping up. I just saw some tour issue irons on eBay and wondered what the difference is. Apparently not much so I won't be spending extra on them
I think the fundamental difference with “Tour issue” is it’s custom built for the player to very specific criteria. I was fitted last year for a Ping G410 and the fitter advised that any heads that are non standard loft don’t make retail quality control and often end up on the tour vans as some players might want something with a loft that’s different from standard.
Your fitter is just guessing. My 9 degree tour issue is 8.9. I’m sure that would meet retail quality control.
Good video, I would add that some rare sets of irons have different offsets, and also iron soles and wedge soles are custom ground to players standards which may not suit you. Customization like hot melting, tour sleeves for loft an lies, loft adjustments make player clubs unique. That level of custom fitting is the real equipment advantage.
All true. Very few are actually different leaving the factory. Changes take place after with input from the player. If you have a good club maker, anyone can get the grinds, hot melt etc changed. Zero offset and other specs like that are completely custom for certain players so I don't like to count that in the tour issue category.
Are you a member of GolfWRX? You're speaking our language..🤣👍
Good job. You have a very accurate understanding of this subject matter.
Thanks for the support.
Really insightful Video, answered a few of the questions i had, Thanks.
Thanks for watching!
Also the guys on tour have the tour vans adjust any head for their specific sw they like, maybe sound for hot melt to be added and either fade or draw biased hot melt positioning. They have more access to multiple upgraded shafts that we usually don’t get access to for testing but usually can buy. However they get to try everything first and usually we are left to purchase and hope if not fitted by a company that has a lot of choices.
That's all true, however the "tour issue" heads you buy off eBay or similar have not had any of those modifications done to them in most cases. They are just the same heads with measured specs.
Like you said, you can have all the same adjustments made to them, you just have to pay for it.
@@EFGMC Taylormade has tour versions of fairway woods with deeper faces, open face angle and low cg that you can't get on their website. I also tried to order one from GolfTown and they said they couldn't order it. The 2017 M2, M4 are notable examples.
@@Mackie17 They have had B versions and sometimes C and D versions also for many of their heads for a while. But I again for this video would group those into a different category. Just like Callaway with the diamond versions of drivers. Now those will often be referred to as tour issue but not always. My main point was there are also plenty of stock design heads labeled as tour issue and that is just a matter of spec measuring.
Question??? The pros hit there irons so often . How do they continue to use the same equipment for years ? Do they remill the grooves? Sand blast the heads and rechrome? By sending them back to the factory ? Or have several several back up sets ?
They usually have several sets when they find one they really like. Of course the big name players can basically get whatever they want even if long discontinued.
Thank you👍
But some Player have a special grind, on there (stock)irons.
See Nick Faldo in Mizuno film.
Or people says, that Tigers Nike Irons, was forged by Miura with Nike stamp....
What ever🤷🏻♂️ i'm happy with my fitted Mizuno MP18 and the Nippon shafts....🏌️♂️😎
Those are true cases, but individual cases. Most PGA pros aren't using secret forged irons or irons with their name on them. I don't count those types of clubs are tour issue, those are one of a kind.
I saw a video recently in which Bryson shot even par over 6 holes using a junior’s set from Walmart. So it looks more like the operator than the tool.
I have a TI Stealth (non +) head it’s amazing. Hotmelt 251 CT 2* open. Things much hotter than my off the rack Stealth +
Great video 👍 A few fine points though..
Justin Thomas actually has his irons nearly at zero offset. Titleist presses/ bends it out some way. Can’t get Titleist to do that for the public.
There are a few tour issue grips, they make lightly corded tour velvet cord grip, midsize tour velvet cord, all sizes in a z cord grip ( not options at retail ) Plus access to discontinued grips.
Also, just a theory of mine. A lot of the tour issue heads on eBay/online for sale are actually the rejects that never made it onto the tour van. I’ve seen heads on a tour van and all the CT’s were marked between 250 and 253.
I’m nitpicking though, awesome video and folks could save a lot of money listening to this video 👍
Good stuff. Thanks for the heads up. Had no idea about the light cord. The others I have seen but not that one, or didn't realize it?
Still seems dangerous to have a 253 CT head on tour knowing the number can creep up over time.
@@EFGMC Xander Schaufelle ( don’t know if I spelled that right ) had a hot driver over the limit I believe at a euro event last year ? I think it happens from time to time. Aside from the penalty the player has to endure, the oem probably just shrugs it off.. I need to correct myself though, most heads I saw were right at 250 ct. A few were 253. Some at 245 +/- a few.. The funny thing is I think people are buying the reject tour issue stuff on eBay, etc.. a lot of the time. At the end of the day... better going retail, unless like you said you find exactly what your are looking for specifically.
Love the video...over the years of talking to PGA caddies and asking these exact questions the answers I've heard are a little different than this video...besides the model name you see for the camera , the irons are customized for that player... now this all depends on contracts and where the player is on the world ranking Yada Yada yada..I have played with a former number 1 and we played the same manufacturer his 7 iron was haft inch longer and was made not bent to an 8 iron loft...I did not know there's no rules or regulations on club length besides driver. You can't buy phil mickelson's iron off the shelf yes they are MBs but completely made for phil only.. hense prototype...thats where I think the confusion comes in and when tiger and Taylormade released Tigers clubs that didn't help...lol..Jordan Spaeth wouldn't walk into golf galaxy grab a set of AP2s and play the masters..he spent days with Titleist getting his grinds, lofts ,lies and lengths just right so he could stay on tv...how many sets of AP2s do you think they sold when he was at the top ? I'm a new subscriber and love your content !!!!
Good points. And you're right about Jordan Speith not walking into Golf Galaxy. He gets all his clubs custom fit from Club Champion, or so I've been led to believe from tv!
Who the f gives thumbs down? Answerings questions alot of golfers think of is great🙂 Thanks mate. God bless you and your beloved ones.
I appreciate it. I often wonder what makes someone hit the thumbs down button?? Really don't know. Luckily I am not the kind of person who worries about the one unhappy person in the crowd if the majority are happy. If I am helping people and get more good response than bad, I am set!
Thanks for your support.
@@EFGMC Quote Einstein. "Stay away from negative people. They find a way to ruin every good plan" Or something along those lines. Keep up the good work.
Kisner uses an older set of irons- will a manufacturer hold sets/heads/shafts in reserve for a player for future use? Or is that up to the player? I can see a manufacturer keeping reserves for the short term, but Kisner might be on his 7th set (or more) in 2021.
They will hold some I think for a big name player but only a few it seems. Daniel Berger has been using the 2011 Taylormade irons and at this point is buying sets off the web to keep as backups.
I agree with everything you said. But I would add this: tour professionals especially the top pros, have a much more extensive fitting process than what an average amateur can get unless they travel to a company’s HQs where testing is accomplished. Tour pros get the desired lie angles measured, lofts adjusted on irons, shafts tipped or hard/soft stepped, length measured exactly to fit the players desire, weighted precisely to a player’s desire, and the grip installed with optimal thickness and layers of tape that may vary from top of the grip to bottom of grip.
With that level of customization yes, the tour pros get a completely custom set of clubs compared to the average amateur. I have had several fittings. No fitter has been as thorough and complete as what a tour pro gets…and the tour pro gets it free, while the average amateur pays for it. I’ve been to Club Champion, Sea Island, a top 100 fitter, and various local fitters. None go into the depth that tour pros get unless of course you go to the Callaway HQs in Cali and pay the $3k for the all day fitting. Even then it’s questionable that they would make the same effort as a touring professional.
"It isn't the club, Mr. Falstaff," she said, softly, "It's the man swinging it."
Best comment I've ever seen on RUclips.
What she said is the golden rule !
Came across this topic and video today. In the case of drivers, pros do not use retail because the head would wear out to quickly, obviously the face. Recently Rory was just on the legal limit for the face thickness of his Driver. This pro hits probably 100 drives in practice per day! Face thickness gets thinner the more you hit it, hence drivers can go dead. Pros use drivers where face thickness is thicker than what us mere mortals can buy. If we had their equipment distance of our drives would drop off as less spring. But with an average pro swinging at between 115 - 130 mph distance doesnt drop off to the extent of what we would experience. The older the face the bigger distance they get. Hence why someone can buy a new driver and get the face shaved to thinner making it non conforming but creating more spring off the face equating to bigger distances
Great video. I would think that tour issue clubs just have a higher level of quality control. I think it’s pretty well known that even the best club makers have certain “manufacturers tolerances” that they allow to get through inspection and onto the shelf. Wether it’s stated loft or lie or both on the clubs I think it’s a little difficult for a manufacturer to make 10,000 driver heads that are all exactly 10.5 degrees with a lie of 58.5.
Tour Issue and Tour Van clubs are really specked out to what the player wants and tour pros are most likely not using “made for” shafts.
Not so much spec'ed out as sorted for the players I think. They measure a whole bunch of heads and then have the specs to match up to a certain golfers. Iron heads are just sorted to where they should be as far as weight, loft and lie.
And as you said, aftermarket shafts in all their clubs.
I've been trying to get my hands on a Taylormade 16.5 degree tour head. I have an Aeroburner and I LOVE how easy it is to hit, but I HATE how closed it sits at address. It would be my dream fairway wood if I could get it to sit neutral.
Sim 2 max came out with a 16.5 degree 3HL (3 high launch). Not sure if they sent many to the stores, but they were released on 2/19
@@danscanlon4208 It sits closed as well. The Sim and Sim 2 16.5's only come in the D-Type(Draw Bias) in their off the rack offerings. All their 16.5 degree heads sit closed unless they're tour issue. Taylormade is kind of the exception to this video. Their tour issue heads have low and forward centre of gravity for less spin, smaller heads with deeper faces and they sit more neutral or open than their off the rack stuff.
@@Mackie17 Taylormade’s website shows Sim2 Max Fairway (regular, not D-type) in 3HL 16.5 degree. Not sure if it’s stocked in stores, but you can order it through their website. You are correct it is not available in the Sim2 Titanium fairway wood. That only comes in the 15 degree and 13.5 “rocket” version.
That head I believe has some forward shaft lean that makes it fall closed. This is more advanced club building, but you could pull the shaft and shim the front side of the hosel to move the shaft into a more neutral position. May also require shaving down the back side of the shaft tip to get it to fit correctly. If the closed face really bothers you, this could work. Full disclosure, it could also ruin the shaft so might be more of a last result deal. Could also just add some lead tape to the rear toe side and see if that cancels any of the face closure.
@@EFGMC Yeah the shaft I have is a $500 shaft so I don't think I want to mess with it to that extent, but I just got some lead tape today so hopefully that will help!
Excellent video. Lots of good information.
a tour pro can can shoot below par with a fan rake.... unless you shoot scratch i wouldnt worry about what your status symbol golf bag looks like
"That don't impress me much" - Shania Twain
You’d be surprised how much a tour player would struggled using off the rack equipment and playing a course they’re not familiar with…
Thanks for cleaning that up for me, always wondered. 👍
Thanks for watching!
I like learning from your channel great info thanks for making these videos
I have a pair of Taylormade SLDR drivers one standard one Tour, my Tour issue is 430 instead of 460, the Tour issue is more workable,( I assume that is face roll), but also way less forgiving, when my swing is on it's great , when not I bag the 460cc standard and play straight shots, as with blades as compared to game improvement irons ,unless you want to shape shots there is no advantage to tour model drivers or blades, but if you want to play draws, fades and stingers you want the clubs you can work!
That 430 head was one of the hardest clubs to hit made in the last 20 years.
@@EFGMC So I've heard, like blades , it's a shotmakers club
One other tidbit of info on tour issue heads. They are the “b” stock heads. Off the rack heads have to be as close as possible to being identical to each other so 2 of the same club are exactly the same. The tour issue heads are off spec by loft, weight center or gravity, lie etc. a pro needs specific specs that are often not the stock spec. Like a 9 deg at 8.1 with a heavier head for higher swing weight or to better balance a shorter length. A seeet spot that’s higher on the face for a lower spin launch. Tour issue heads are spec rejects.
Yes, perfectly said. The problem is I think most consumers think the opposite and believe that the Tour Issue ones are more spec exact without understanding this.
@@EFGMC , loved your video. Very informative for the average consumer. Regular people often don’t believe us when we try to tell them this information. I work in retail clubfitting and sales. Been fitting since the late 90’s. We get tours of the big companies Tour departments since we’re near Carlsbad, Ca. where they all are. We get great behind the scenes information while doing product training when the new equipment comes in.
Keep up the good work.
@@danwhitehurst9592 Thanks Dan.
Great video. Thx
The only true tour issue clubs are putters and Henrik Stensons grips. Been trying to get golf pride to answer my emails requesting his full cord tour wraps unsuccessfully now for about 5 years. No I don’t want to play your crappy multi compound grips golf pride :)
They do keep old stock of some grips for the tour guys I wish we could get our hands on. I miss the old half cord tour wrap! And agree, don't like the MMC grips at all.
A few things to note, the material used in Scotty Cameron tour putters are different than your ordinary off the rack Scotty Cameron. The tour players use gss which is German stainless steel and the off the rack putters use a less expensive stainless steel. Have never tried a gss but from what I understand it has a softer feel and offers a little more feedback. Also yes you can get upgraded shafts in your driver but there are differences. Say you wanted an upgraded project x shaft in your driver, they offer mass produced project x shafts for more money and they offer the same shaft that is hand crafted for even more money. The hand crafted is the same shaft but built with higher tolerances for a more consistent shaft. Also before the Taylor made m6 driver the tolerances in driver building were not the same. One driver might have a cor of 1.5 while others might have one of 1.46. The company’s would test drivers out and only give the tour pros the ones with the highest cor so they were as close to the legal limit as possible. That’s why the m6 was so good because not every driver they produce was right at the legal limit. As for what material irons are made out of I am not too sure, they could be using more exotic metals like the Scotty Cameron gss does for example but I’m not too sure
Thanks for the comment. The Tour Only Scottys are not all GSS as only certain ones actually use that material vs 303 Stainless or other. The Tour Only putters do come out of the Scotty studio vs the retail heads that are mass produced as you stated.
Shafts get extremely tricky when discussing differences. Anyone can get the same shafts as the tour pros use in 9 out of 10 cases. If you custom order a club, the OEM will have numerous high end shaft options. They won't have everything, but you will usually be able to get the most popular stuff on tour. So if you want a Fuji Ventus w/ Velocore, you can pay the $350 uncharge and get it. It gets confusing because Fuji also makes a non-Velocore version which is much cheaper.
As far as driver limits go, you can go on eBay and find M1, M2, M3 etc heads (though harder to find them at this point) that all show the exact same range of CT scores as the most current Sim2 heads. This idea that these heads are hotter now is marketing. Now some newer heads may have a larger hi CT face area vs older heads but it won't be by much and the max remains the same.
do tour issue drivers have a higher CT?
btw, some of the irons are very much different as well. tour issue irons are with completely pressed out offsets (Apex pro players do that a lot as stock option has too much offset for tour guys. Thats why they have Apex pro “dot“ versions. Similar is true for other manufacturers).
True. Less offset, more grooves, different sole grinds are all options. That doesn't make them better or worse though, just different.
Also I did a build a month or so back with some Apex Pro tour issue heads. These heads however were not the dot or double dot, just the standard retail style head. So in this case you had "tour issue" in name only. Assuming the specs were all right on for loft and lie though I didn't check them. The weights were all exact.
scotty putters have ones which are tour issue only and are mega expensive! Balls are different though, was able to get some off a pro and the skin was different on the outer layer from what I could tell.. the balls where callaway ++ balls. Am open to be told otherwise cheers.
Scotty tour putters are made in the Scotty studio where as the retails are made in a factory somewhere else. Some of them use different materials (ie GSS which are the super expensive ones). Not sure about the balls. Will need to do some research into that.
@@EFGMC Is that what makes them unique to tour players as well as cost? I have a scotty myself and love it. As for the balls that's only what I found from getting them off a pro but that doesn't prove anything. I also got some of the defective ones which they produced.. they went everywhere! P.S new Sub
@@willo283 The ones with the circle T logo are made in the studio and cost more for that reason. The GSS putters are even more because of the material. Thanks for the support!
Well some clubs have hot melts and shafts that aren't for sale to the general public that have more exotic materials used. You never touched base on that. Obviously certain putters from Cameron and such use better grade grade stainless steels that for sure aren't offered to the public. Hefty price tags as well.
I think the idea is that, with the measurements specified on those stickers, you know exactly what you’re getting as opposed to the variations in the OEM’s tolerances (which is a bit disconcerting). I would also think that the “tour issue” designation might mean the club is far less likely to be a counterfeit.
I would just say that from the measurements I have done on off the rack drivers, the specs have come out to be very consistent overall. The idea that they aren't is something pushed by people trying to sell Tour Issue or "high end fitter/builders" who want you to believe they are giving you a better end product.
The fujikura motore f1 is not an older shaft but a recent offering from fujikura. At least the one Kisner uses is the latest iteration of the motore f1.
You're right. These are the Motore X which are current. My mind jumps back to the old versions from 10 years ago always. I still see those often, less of the new ones. Good catch.
Thanks Aj ,always wanted to know what tour issue was , 👌
Thanks for watching. Glad it helped.
Great video! I’ve purchased tour issue clubs before but once I discovered it really was only about the specs I realized it’s just not worth it. A quick note on the Tours measuring COR, I’ve read that they only measure drivers so some guys have hotter fairway woods. Perhaps that why so many guys on tour stick with 3 woods for a decade.
Thanks. Yeah, I'm not sure if and how many fairway woods get checked for conformity. I think it's also the case that the OEMs aren't strongly recommending switching 3 woods every season like they do with the drivers. If it wasn't written into contracts, not sure the pros would be changing drivers nearly as often either.
That makes sense. Scott Fawcett recently tested his 20 year old Callaway Big Bertha vs his newer Mavrik and the difference in distance was insignificant. I guess marketing dollars drive r&d and profits obviously.
It's serendipitous to see your comment as I was thinking of this during the week. My 2008 Burner 3w has a way hotter face than my 917f2.
@@diogeneslantern18 I’m not surprised. I’ve heard club fitters say when they see someone coming in with TM Burners they know they won’t be able I beat it. Surprised TM hasn’t brought that face under a new name.
@@arthurford829 it's truly a titan of the 2000s. They are "relatively" common for an "old" club in that I've seen 3 other players with one in the bag, and all 3 of those players (and I suppose myself included, if I do say so myself) were pretty serious players. If it works, it works...
I realize this is an older video and this is off topic but I want to get into club building I have researched it for quite some time now but wanted to ask what are the first tools you would invest in first what is absolutely necessary. And to comment ont he video thanks for making it btw doesnt a face get hotter the more you play it i know thats not exactly what you were getting at but just a thought I had while listening if so a pro plays so much every day i would imagine over time the face of their clubs wearing thin would make them hotter. idk maybe thats rediculous to think
I need to do a video about what you need to start building clubs.
Second question, yes the faces to flex more over time and can becoming non conforming.
First, Pros get the most spec conforming Tour Edition line heads. These are very hard to find but MUST by the rules of the USGA and R&A be made available to the general public. Off-the-shelf woods can have their loft off by as much as 1*. When I purchase Tom Wishon woods I get “hand selected” ones. This way the spec matches what I want. Secondarily, Pro’s are fitted for the exact shaft for their swing. We’re talking $300+ shafts vs. the $50 OEM ones. Lastly the wood heads are hot glued to specifically balance them to exactly fit their swing. Yes every part is technically available on the retail market but the Pro’s finished club cost is 3-4 times the cost of an off-the-rack club. Pros clubs are custom in every way.
Don't disagree with anything you said. I said the tour issue heads are available in different places but not at your local golf shop, and that if you order an aftermarket upgrade shaft in the same model, with the same specs for flex and weight, it will also be the same. Hotmelt is something anyone can have done for $10-$15 by a knowledgable club maker.
I realize I didn't get into custom grinds on irons but was trying to keep the video at a reasonable length.
@@EFGMC
I am a custom club maker. A few years ago I was receiving Tour Edge Exotic woods that were played on the PGA Tour. The average shaft was $400-$500. As far as hot melt you need head mapping to install it corrected and that info is not public knowledge. As far as irons go custom grinds plus Loft & Lie adjustments are readily available to everyone. As with woods the shaft selection and setup is key.
@@briansgolfworks4991 Yes, some of the shafts can be more expensive, but my point is if you want a Fujikura Ventus just like everyone and their cousin is playing on tour right now, you can get that exact shaft either from any OEM or any number of golf component retailers.
@@EFGMC
That’s not always true. Many OEM’s spec their shafts from suppliers. They may say Ventis but they’re TaylorMade’s spec for the Ventis. Usually this is a cost factor. Manufacturers are not installing a $100 cost shaft ($200 retail) into a $400 club. OEM shafts are generally not the same quality as the after market version.
@@briansgolfworks4991 There are different versions of some shafts in some cases and the shaft makers and OEMs may make them difficult to distinguish between the two, but if you order a Ventus w/ VeloCore from an OEM, you are getting the "real" shaft. If you weren't, the OEMs would be getting calls from the BBB.
It is important for consumers to understand this so that they aren't confused by a Fuji Ventus vs. Ventus VeloCore, or Mitsu Tensei AV vs. CK vs. CK Pro.
Just curious what kind of weight are they adding.
Before seeing the video, I think they do. That is the tools of the trade. If anything makes a difference, it may be the tolerances when building for pros than building for a weekend warrior.
Face angle is a serious variable on tour issue wood heads. Some iron sets are forged but stamped as non forged retail edition! Generally, tour issue wood heads are not good for everyone. Like taylormade TW iron set is definitely not for everyone, it was individually designed for Tiger Woods
Thank you for the video, it’s clear and perfectly explained. But a lot of players have special irons or putters, built with different materials or by a specific manufacturer. For example, some Apex MB are built by Miura, so we don’t really have the same feeling and quality. There is also Scotty Cameron with GSS putter
Thanks for watching. Totally agree. But I wouldn't put a German Stainless Scotty in the Tour Issue category or Miura blades made for other OEMs. I feel like those are individual pieces and should be counted likewise.
I am mainly talking about eBay or other online retailer heads labeled Tour Issue and commanding a premium price because of it, not because those clubs are different or better but just because they are technically Tour Issue.
@@EFGMC thanks for your reply ! So I understand. Very interesting topic and perfectly answered 💯
What about driver shaft lengths? Most drivers sold are 45.5 inches and heard pro's use 44.5 inches.
That was going around a few years ago that all the pros were using 44 1/2 or less. Some were. At this point though, most are at least 45 and just trying to max it out, less worried about accuracy b/c the stats show distance is most important.
I know a player that has played on the European tour this year (he has no club contract but access to the tour vans) He has just been on e bay to buy two TM M2 heads as he cannot get any better numbers off any newer clubs he wants a couple of spares
That M2 is a monster and still considered by many the greatest driver ever.
Hendrickson ？
True, those golf club heads sent to Tour Van have nothing different than retail clubs. But I like my putters with Circle T stamp.
Those Circle T stamp Scotty's are actually made in a different location (Scotty Studio) than the standard retail versions. What difference that makes, probably hard to say.
Hey AJ,
Can you add a bit on your loft sleeve adjustment videos. I am interested in what using a right hand adapter in a left handed club does. In particular with the ping adapters is flat still flat or does that now become standard and the standard become flat?
The lie angles will not change for Ping. They will still get flatter with any adjustment from starting position. Lofts will go in opposite direction.
Tolerance is a lot of the issue but my T serial number head is 40 cc smaller than the Same driver off the rack.
And is also actually a neutral face, where the off the rack head is 2 degrees closed even though it says neutral, to help the average golfer who usually slices
From what I can tell the real difference is that the pros have their clubs specked to fit their swing style. So a guy like you would analyze their swing and design them a club that would fit them perfectly. My clubs for instance are probably a bit longer than they need to be considering I'm a bit on the short side of what your typical club is designed for lengthwise that is.
Having them spec'd out on the tour van lets them find what they need faster. Certain player likes x loft with y face angle etc, they can pull those heads for them and be built up quickly.
Super interesting video. I guess it really is the years of practice and professional coaches that make the tour guys that good lol.
Yeah. Pretty sure Tiger could have played a set of off the rack Big Bertha irons and still run circles around everyone else.
Here’s what I want to know. My driver has a $100 projectX smoke shaft in it . An Aldila rogue silver shaft
costs $425 bucks. How much difference can a premium priced shaft like that make for a guy that drives a ball 250 -260 ?
If the shaft fits you and you get good distance and dispersion with it, then probably little or none, maybe worse. Just because a shaft is expensive, does not mean it's better and definitely doesn't mean it's better for you. The key is knowing what specs work for you and finding shafts with those specs.
As to that specific shaft your referring to, the Rogue Silver that's $425 is really not going to show any benefits unless you swing very hard as the extra money is from high price materials stabilizing the shaft.
@@EFGMC thanks so much for responding. When I got fitted for my driver , the only shafts I got to try were the stock shafts for the Epic drivers . It’s my fault for not asking if they had others though. I’ve just always wondered, what if . lol
@@lakedog3616 I understand. Best advise I can give is, if it ain't broke, don't fix.
You see many PGA guys switch out their gamer shaft all the time for the hot new shaft only to end up back with their old faithful within a few weeks. Take note.
I’m a golf tech junkie. To me the sleeves that adjusted the loft are different. Irons are mostly raw steel or the hollow constructed irons are not. The pros don’t need the distance. Some pros don’t like the adjustable hosel and will request standard feral shafts.
There are a few who use a bonded hosel design. Tiger held out for a long time while with Nike. At this point most of the pros are using the adjustable hosel, though like you said some are using a "tour" sleeve with less angle in it. Mainly think of Taylor Made because they use a 2 degree adapter and the tour is 1 I think. Callaway has the green dot adapters though that is really just a LH adapter going into the RH head. Just switch the writing on it.
Outstanding video and great information. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
How about shafts, weight? frequency? spine? kick points?
At this point anyone can get whatever shaft they want in a driver so if you want the shaft used by player X on tour, you can usually get it. Only a couple exceptions usually based on heavier graphite shafts. Frequency you can get done on your own. Spine I don't worry about. Important thing is getting shafts with good overall radial consistency (aka bends the same regardless of which way it's orientated). That is one thing you are paying for in theory with aftermarket shafts.
golf is one of those sports where theres not really like idk, a massive range of performance improvements in gear, in other sorts like hockey youll see pro level stuff being super customised, modified to be more protective or better, normally actually the next year's model skinned as the current year's, or whatever,
golf gear now is pretty much already at the limit of what's legal, so what they make for the public and what they make for the pros is basically the same thing, just goes through better QA
I can tell you that I made the mistake of buying a set of TaylorMade r9 tp irons a few years back, and found that the TP's had higher lofts. I lost a club in distance. Clearly a tour player's higher swing speeds allow for more loft.
TP stuff in general was for the lower handicap higher speed players though some was more marketing than actual tour specs. You might have had a mis spec-ed set as the lofts were pretty standard for that style of head and that model year.
Tour players forged irons( regardless of manufacturer) are forged by endo. Retail clubs are not, other than a few jdm brands, and those that are forged by endo, are forged in their Thailand plant. Tour clubs, forged by endo in their japan plant in Niigata.
Endo Thailand make fantastic quality clubs.
Tennis pros all use "paint job" pro stock racquets, racquets painted to look like the latest retail offerings. After this became publicized, the racquet companies had to change their marketing claims from "used by Pro X" to "endorsed by Pro X". The pro stock racquets are made at special low volume facilities different from the Chinese mass production. While this video claims that the golf club differences are mainly in terms of weight specs and tightness to the spec, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that pros are getting better and higher quality clubs. Wasn't it an open secret that Tigers Nike clubs were made by a specialty forge in Japan, and not available to the public or anyone else for that matter?
exactly, and that kind of meticulous craftsmanship can't be mass produced.
Yes, Tiger was widely rumoured to use ‘Nike’ irons forged by Miura
Even now .. his tm iron is cut above the rest
Yep, in tennis they call it Rembrandting. Paint an older model frame in the color scheme of the new product.
He’s also ignoring the fact that tour pros get better shafts, better fittings, and tour heads. Bryson had Cobra making him a driver for the Masters, obviously this is not available to retail.
For Callaway, you get Red and Green dot lie angle adapters, the Diamond heads for Power Fades and smaller driver heads.
To take one club and go “Nope, not different!” is dishonest. Bridgestone used to make specialty formulas for Tiger Wood’s ball because Nike didn’t make golf balls.
I think overall you’re right but there is a big difference in calling something “tour issued” circle T putters for example vs. tour level custom fit. Pros do get access to club fitting and club options that the average and even better player doesn’t, and they get access to club specs that normal golfers don’t. Titleist is not going to make me a set of clubs with a specific toe grind or custom profile with the specific CG weighting that I want because I’m not a top level pro, but, they sure will for guys on tour. Just because Titleist’s 620mb irons are stamped on the club for JT doesn’t mean they are the same as what you can get through a retailer off the rack. The clubs conceptually aren’t really any different, it’s just the customization options are much more detailed vs, length, lie angle, loft and shaft. What I described above is literally how all the wedge grind options became available. (Back in the 90s and 2000s ) these options were tour issue only unless you really knew what you were doing as a club maker and player.
I agree with all of that. I choose to put some of that stuff into a different category since it's not even tour issue as much as just plain custom for an individual golfer. I also wonder how far down the money list you can be and still ask Titleist to make you a set of clubs from ground up. Guessing there are only a handful of big name recognition players who could actually get everything they want.
It's the fit , feel, and build done specifically for the pros that separates tour spec verse jo blo
Tour pros get hand selected equipment, access to prototypes, and lots of times the "whats in your bag" that you see on Golf WRX or similar, does actually have the right information. Prototype shafts hidden with common graphics are a very common thing on tour. Rickie fowler uses a "standard" cobra driver but it has its own CG characteristics... so its not actually the same driver. And its not available for normal people to buy. So yes PGA Tour Players use better equipment. because they get more specific eqiupment or in many cases... equipment specifically made for them and then hidden with normal or common graphics so people cant really see that they have something different.
Gday AJ could you do a video on shaft puring or spine alignment. Keep the videos coming
Got one in the works covering my beliefs on the subject. Hope to have it ready in a couple weeks. Thanks for the support!
@@EFGMC 👍🏽
Well they are better FOR the tour pro. Reason why would be that they have tour trucks that can literally perfect the club exactly to the spec a tour player wants. You cannot get that same treatment of your clubs unless you get a special invite or are a tour professional.
Interesting AJ, good info.
I'm interested in what tolerances the OEM's use for lofts mostly in their off the shelf clubs.
I had my 716 Titleist irons loft checked by my Pro recently and only had 1 club which was exactly what Titleist said it should be, 48°, the others were as much as 2.5° out. OK, I know that I had been using them for a while, and they could have gone out of "spec", but it got me wondering how close to stated lofts they were when I bought them new. All the lies were wrong too, and I had them custom fitted to 1° upright, so maybe it's a con?
I've not long bought a Ping G410 driver and fairway wood, can I easily measure the lofts without the equipment you have?
Maybe a video showing how if it's possible please, thanks 👍
Hard to say on the irons since you had been hitting them. Have never been able to spec check new irons out of the box. Hoping the channel gets big enough where OEMs will start sending me equipment to test. They do spec check iron and wedge heads on tour vans but you don't usually see them sold online since they are all individual and not in sets.
As far as measuring goes, I did a video about using my iPhone to measure loft, lie and length. The loft and lie were pretty close on a 3 wood I did. Woods and especially drivers are really tricky to measure however because of the face roll. 1/4 inch up or down the face can change loft 1.5 degrees so it's really difficult to say what the exact loft is. If you haven't watched, here is the iPhone vid and a vid about impact height on driver.
ruclips.net/video/r9SAU9zNBFk/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/mw1SHxqZEBY/видео.html
@@EFGMC Thanks for replying, I did watch those videos when you put them out. I don't have an iphone, and I'm not sure whether the accuracy would be worth it anyway. I have a home made club "vice", L shape, which I can clamp the driver into and get the shaft square to the face, ( not leaning backwards or forwards), and have tried an adjustable spirit level with angles on, but it relies on getting the bubble exact. I need some kind of protractor or angle finder of some sort I think.
@@paulmilsom1346 I have one of these I use sometimes, and I can bring it to the course.
Can also find on Amazon pretty sure.
www.golfworks.com/golf-club-loft-and-lie-protractor/p/gwpro/
To me the real difference is the fit and understanding what works best for the individual.
They have the ability to get perfectly fit for their clubs for their swings , game etc.
Its like a suit off the racks fit ( still can look very good if you look for awhile and try on till you find that nice perfect fit ) against a taylor made suit fitted to a T just for you that day ( you look as good as possible with this ability ) this is difference.
So don't buy tour issue either take your time trying clubs or spend that money getting fit if you play enough and consider it worth it for your game
Agreed.
I got a M2 gen2 tour from my coach from the european tour and it doesn't even looks like a M2
Tour pros use some clubs but they have specific specs they want done to it for the use of the clubs.
True. But anything done for the pros can also be done for any amateur who desires it. Just need a good club builder or have the knowledge themself.
Grinds, lofts , lie angles I guess individually adjusted
@@paulmcgee1867 Correct. All that stuff is altered after. Custom grinds will sometimes be done during manufacturing of irons.
Lofts and lies on irons can be changed at any time so you don't need to know the exact specs out the factory door, unlike a driver where you can't go and bend it around except for the adjustable hosel changes you can make.
Would be great if you did a video on Uni-Fit adapters (ie Club Conex)...The advantages, disadvantages, etc.
Are you just thinking about them for fittings, or for personal use?
@@EFGMC personal use... Multiple shafts fitting multiple driver heads...
@@chrisb6865 I will look into it for a future video. Thanks.
The difference is the pros are playing clubs that are weighted for their swing. Most on tour play clubs that are heavier in weight and swing weight than what you can just buy in the store or order.
I guarantee they are not playing D2 drivers off the shelf. They may play D4 or D5 but also the head is heavier to match heavier shaft and probably a plug to add weight by grip end. When you have a heavier club you swing smoother and hit sweet spot more often. The players on tour are chasing speed, but they are chasing it with the heavier clubs, not buy buying a 40 gram shaft.
Very insightful
Thanks for watching.
But aren‘t there different hosels for drivers and fairway woods, that you just cannot buy?
Taylormade has a "tour" hosel that I believe is set at 1 degree instead of 2. Callaway has the green dot adapter which is just a left handed adapter relabeled with RH designations. This allows you to loft down 2 degrees and up 1, the opposite of the standard version. Not sure who else makes one.
Very informative, as usual. I love your videos. Keep em coming! Thank you
Thanks for your support!
Hitting a near exact spec can be important. I have a Callaway 816 Alpha DBD Driver and Fairways. Admittedly that is an older model. GolfWrx did a driver center of gravity test on almost every brand made in various years ( mygolfspy.com/2019-driver-center-of-gravity-and-moi-report/ ). Every one of the 2016 Callaway drivers marked 9.0 was measured to be 10.4 degrees of loft when in the neutral position. Whether Callaway hand-picked these for Golfwrx I don't know. In any case, I wanted 10.5 degrees so I ordered the 9.0 marked driver from Callaway Pre-owned and it works great with my swing and specs. For that reason using Tour Issue heads can be helpful. 9.0 to 10.4 is a significant variance. I would be hitting my drives too low if it really were 9 degrees of loft.
I dusagree with your statement that retail issue club actual specs vary little from the marked specs. I used to work for a Golf Digest rated Top 100 custom club fitter named Leith Anderson. We would measure the heads. In one case years ago I found a TaylorMade 12.5 degree marked driver head that was really over 17 degrees of loft - more than a 3wood! I thought that couldn't be right so I got Leith to measure it. He agreed that 17 degrees was impossible - until he measured it and verified what I found. That amount of difference is a rarity, but any significant difference can cause issues.
Exactly what I expect him to say...this is pure propaganda to hide the truth :) Great video!!
Most Tour issue clubs are generally blueprinted, and the tolerances are much tighter that the mass produced.
There is a little cheating on tour and that' custom clubs from another manufacturer stamped with the brand they are being paid to play. Thats why sometimes they look weird
True. So many different types of heads out there, hard to quantify them all. Also so much misinformation. My main tip is just don't go paying extra for something just because the words tour issue show up in the description.
How much difference does a 9*5% driver make to a 12% driver. To a club golfer.
Usually 1 degree change = .75 degree launch angle change.
@@EFGMC so what can you suggest for a high handyycapper regarding loft.
@@michaelbritton9778 Usually more loft is going to be less penal than lower loft drivers but it will depend on your speed and dynamic loft at impact.
Hate to say yes they do 100%, perhaps not limits (how hot the driver face is for example) but wedges/putters certainly the customisation options they have just aren't available to the general public, on wedges unique bounce/grind options just aren't available to the public
Most of that work is done after the initial manufacturing. So if you find a knowledgable club maker or know what you're doing, you can get any grind you want.
@@EFGMC yes and no, any work you do yourself/aftermarket voids any warranty so it better to get done from the manufacturer which isn't available to most people, vokey offer wedge works which is common tour player grind options but still not 100% adjustable, that's where the difference lies
Let's never forget that tour pros are a little more than traveling salesman for the golf industry. The golf industry wants to make sure that the tour pros do as well as they can with the products that the golf industry provides them.
Little more than traveling salesmen? Name a salesman of any kind that is professional in the use of the product he sells. Those guys aren't selling anything but entertainment. If you buy something they use with the idea that it will make you play like them, that's on you but to diminish their level of skill by calling them traveling salesmen is just ridiculous.
his 915 fd
5 wood is MOTO ("Made Only to Order") and could not be purchased through a normal shop
Thanks for pointing that out. There are always going to be some unique clubs out there that aren't readily available.
What are your thoughts on the rumor that Miura made tiger woods' nike clubs?
Always seemed reasonable since Nike was so new at that point and some of the equipment was hit or miss early on.
Nike doesn't make anything, everything they sell is shopped out to third world factories.
Erik Anders Lang asked this question when he visited the Miura factory. Basically, some Titleist custom orders were fulfilled by Miura. Check EAL’s adventures in golf video out for the details.
@@thedadgolfer yes Miura-san didn't answer EAL question directly. He just smiled
Very helpful. Thank k you
What does RA1 and RA2 stand for?
I still have not gotten a for sure answer on what those are.
@@EFGMC thanks anyway. no one seems to know…
Nice video. I used to play some high level competitive golf and got tour issue shafts because the spec is more exact than standard issue shafts. It's just slight differences in manufacturing like you said, and tour issue shafts are measured to be super close to the ideal spec and some are spot on. There is just super minuscule differences in weight that can sometimes be felt. I've also read some weird things about Tour drivers. There's a good chance some of them are much hotter than retail drivers. Here's an article www.pgatour.com/equipmentreport/2019/07/24/justin-thomas-speaks-driver-ct-testing-calls-frequent-tests-by-manufacturers-equipment-clubs-xander-schauffele.html
where they talk about the testing and how faces thin out over time and get "hot". And also the CT tolerance is +- 18 which sounds a bit much to me lol. They also say their driver faces start to crack. How long are they playing these things, one season maximum? I'd say the face was probably a little thinner at the start compared to retail because they don't want everyones faces breaking after that little play. Just my thoughts, but when I see the trackman ball speeds these days I don't really buy that they are just strong or whatever, hot faces. But its a win win for the golf industry, long drives with the shiny new driver = more sales so why wouldn't they give their pros something a little hotter?
I personally think the club head speeds are under measured on PGA tour as the smash factor numbers for the top guys are all over 1.50 which is not mathematically possible unless they all have non-conforming heads. I think all the tour guys have heads that are over the 238 limit but under the 257 tolerance. The real difference between the two numbers is very small in terms of yardage.
If we are being honest, the club itself has the least to do with distance. Modern golf ball is big difference.
@@EFGMC Right on with the golf ball. They are too stable in the wind, too long, and don't curve enough. I remember watching all the guys at the US Open at pebble and everyone hit the ball dead straight, I think we've lost a lot of the artistry in golf. I've noticed particularly the Tp5's are really stable. I also think the shafts, particularly in woods can make a huge difference. Tour pros being able to choose the exact shafts to achieve optimum launch and spin also contributes to the huge carry numbers. I think in the next 10 years we will see a change in regulations to limit distance. It's sad how many golf courses are becoming too short for competitive players. Back to the balata! (or a ball like it) I think the easiest way to "fix" the game on the tour is a ball change. But of course there's no reason to limit amateur balls and I don't advocate for any change in recreational golf.
Go back and look at the John Rahm video. Where he was breaking down his driver swing and how he hits a fade. And the efficiency popped up…. 1.51.
Look it up you will find it. CONSPIRACY! But who really knows.
Just want to add one comment here…I have 3 different tour issue R1 driver head….These days, the serial numbers are same as retail. But some old heads have tour issue serial numbers, like TD2xxx or TD8xxx. Retail R1 driver is more like oval shape head and somehow tour players didn’t like it. So tour issue R1 head is more traditional head shape and smaller size. I have TD3xxx, TD2xxx and TD8xx.
I believe TD3 serial is higher loft and TD2 is standard 9 to 10 degree and TD8 serial is much smaller head, 410cc head. TD2 and TD3 is 440cc. What I heard was that TD8 is designed for Sergio Garcia because he liked smaller head. I still have them and honestly…I don’t see any difference, I don’t hit any further than retail. I collect them because it has different shape than retail. But these days, they look exactly same. Retail, tour issue…no difference…just fancy title and bunch of spec numbers…
I had one of those R1 V2s. I remember the small head one also. I think I might have seen a 4th version also but now I can't remember.
Tour issue are much tighter specs. COR, lie, loft, weight. And they get new year products 6-9 months sooner than retail.
They don't usually get heads more than a month or two before retail unless it's a prototype, in which case that's not Tour Issue. You can see when a head goes onto the USGA / R&A conforming list right at the start of the year, retail usually released in Feb.
Think you might of just broken a few ebayers hearts sir........The tour issue clubs are well overpriced on ebay.....Great review 👏
Thanks. I hope so. Just don't like seeing people getting misled with all the marketing and BS out there.
I value the rich information in your video. But I do not agree that the Pros play with the same with what we ordinary public. Of course, I know very little to nothing compared to your knowledge as a professional club maker. But let me state the fact some years ago upon receiving a can of Slazenger tennis balls from ATP Tennis evens & found that the balls were absolutely superior in terms of quality & playability. In this connection, the Pros in whatever sports will be given different treatments/equipment compared to the general public.
Some tour issue driver heads use a different metal that is harder so they don't crack the face. TM tour issue heads are lighter to allow for hot melt adjustments while keeping swing weight to spec. COR is probably at or close to max on tour. The reason you don't see them on eBay is because they are being used on tour. Hard to find a tour issue head on eBay with a high COR. There's a reason for that. Tour issue irons if blades tend to be forged away from China and with a softer metal. Finally - Tour Issue shafts for woods have a much tighter variance to flex strength. At least back in 201*s. An X flex retail is not an X flex tour issue. And that's probably the most important aspect fitting wise - Making sure your driver and woods get the right kick due to correct frequency. But upgraded shafts these days are probably just as good as tour issue these days. Technology has gotten better in the manufacture process.
good stuf. Would be nice you make another video based on tour irons specs
The irons are less often referred to as tour issue because for them it's just a matter of loft, lie, and weight and all those things can be adjusted where as the starting loft or lie on a driver can't really be changed other than with the hosel adjustments.
@@EFGMC I'm thinking in those tour players who plays hardly modified lofts and lies like Bryson (strong) and Tiger (weak) even this zero offset heads from Ricky Fowler for instance. Correct me if Im wrong but in theory you can't bent a retail head even if forged +/- 2º lofts and lies so understand some tour players plays made to order maybe even in different grade of carbon steel to allow such resilience. Thanks for your answers!
@@amgpuma A cast head you can't usually get more than 1-2 degrees from, but a forged head or carbon steel cast wedge like a Vokey will usually go 3-4 degrees no problem. Now you do run into other issues when bending lofts that far with bounce and offset but it can be done. And you can always get things bent or ordered from a factory where they can get more out of them.
@@EFGMC Yep, good thing about Ping is sure they are cast but can be adjusted like a forged thanks to that hosel notch and tool they made with their dot color system