I was the Product Development Manager at MSR when an inventor came to us with the heat exchanger, which we developed and sold. I personally did hundreds of boil-tests on the device and I believe the 20-25% number is valid. One key consideration is that running a stove on a benchtop in still air doesn't show as much relative gain as when there is almost any sideways wind at all. This is when most stoves crap out, but the MSR stove's windscreen, and the heat exchanger maintain high efficiency. The best results I ever got was from a heat-blackened 1 liter stsinless pot onto which I had silver-soldered a corrugated brass wind screen I made on the MSR heat exchanger's corrugation tooling. I cut some small notches where the windscreen hung below the pot so it would fit either Whisperlite or XGK stove pan wires. You can see the vertical line of bubbles in the water where each corrugation solders to the pot. It is necessary that the exchanger sit half to 3/4- inch below the pot bottom, to capture the stove' s heat and conduct into the pot. I got sometimes 80% of the fuel's available heat into the water in still-air, and 70% in my 20mph wind tunnel. It IS worth it, in the field. -Jim Fife MSR 1985-1995.
Thanks Jim, when I contacted MSR they didn't mention the 3/4" adjustment, in fact they told me not to do that. I have had several comments saying I should lower the heat exchanger. I'll have to give that a try in another test. Thanks.
Hi @@KevinOutdoors We hope you do an update by lowering the exchanger so that it serves as a wind shield. In addition, you should also try it with the aluminum and titanium pots I think that logically the result should be significantly better adding these changes
Year ago purchased Boulin 3500 with 11/2 ltr pot,around 40$.Am very happy with speed of water boil,and regulates low for other cooking chores.Currently around 50$,I think is very fair price.
I've seen a lot of videos comparing a lot of things and quite honestly this is one of the best try-it-out comparison videos I've ever seen. It gets right to the point and the graphs are clear as a bell. Nice job! 😎👍
Kevin Outdoors sorry for my bad english (i’m french) i have a eat exchanger for almost 15 years. didnt cost me a lot at the time.... but i use it in 2 ways for the eat and for the wind, since my pot is not always full i can lower it down to protect the flame from the wind... dont know if it as a positive effect ? 🤪 got to say too that i’m on bike travel so weight of a couple gram more not to important for me
Excellent video Kevin. You put to rest the myth of heat exchangers. I have never used one and now I can say I never will. Thanks for taking the time to do this video.
Thanks Rodney. I am going to contact both Primus and MSR and ask how they calculated their efficiencies. Both respectable companies that make good gear but you are right, heat exchangers are a myth.
You've positioned the heat exchanger to the pot improperly: the exchanger needs to extend below the bottom of the pot so it captures and channels the maximum amount of heat up the sides of the pot. With the heat exchange above the bottom edge of the pot, half of the heat that spills around the edge of the pot is lost. When used properly, the exchanger also doubles as a bit of a windscreen. In addition, maximizing efficiency of the exchanger may require a lower burn rate - perhaps also true for a pot without the exchanger too, but the difference is liable to be larger - but I think you'd find the difference in fuel savings may be larger at a lower temperature.
I may give it a try comparing more variables like cold weather. Some have suggested it performs better when melting snow. But really for $50 it should provide more clear results and you shouldn't have to struggle to find conditions where it performs well. I do have the heat exchanger installed correctly for this kind of stove. I went to the MSR website and it describes the following... "Multi-Use: When used with liquid fuel stoves, or remote-burner canister stoves like the WindPro™ II, it can act as a wind block by extending below the pot." On an LPG canister stoves it should not extend below the edge of the pot. You don't want to generate too much heat on the canister.
@@KevinOutdoors True for the canister stove. I have the Dragonfly and when used with the pot below the edge, the boil time at full blast is faster. I didn’t measure the fuel use but the stove was used for less time. Even having said that, I still rarely use it.
Imho if you have the folding aluminum windscreen nestled around your pot it is old school yet serves to not only block the wind but also retains heat to warm the bottom of the pot. So could that old school windscreen be the original heat exchanger??
Wind can be the biggest 'heat thief' of any stove system. Windscreens can be very effective at keeping your stove running efficiently. Just remember not to contain the heat around your canister which can be a problem with many LPG canister stoves that mount above the canister.
Another great review. Your channel has been very helpful when it comes to helping me decide on some new cookware. Seems like almost every question I have, you have a video that covers it excellently. You really do have some of the most detailed reviews for camping products that I have seen.
THanks Capt'Wes. When I started these stove and pot videos I had the objective to do something different. There are lots of heat to head boil test videos out there (usually different pots on different stoves) but not a lot of actual fair comparisons. The best guy out there is Hiram Cook who brings a controlled environment to his tests. But Hiram never got into the data and analysis and he focused mainly on alcohol stoves. That is where I saw the opportunity. I appreciate your comments!
Excellent review ... thanks. Your results align nicely with my experiential assumptions. I've used 'heat exchanger' pots in a variety of different circumstances, including in the depths of winter, and found no appreciable difference in either boil speed or fuel consumption. But, I hadn't bothered to sit down and actually do some tests. Great video!
You brought up an interesting point in terms of efficiciency relating to a cannister with less pressure vs. a canister with more pressure. It would be interesting to see how a regulated cannister stove compares to non-regulated cannister stove. Is it gimmick or does the regulated stove save fuel?
Thanks MRo. My stove is the 'Soto micro-regulator'. I use it for these tests because it is supposed to keep a constant pressure. It does seem to maintain constant pressure up until the canister is nearly finished. Since I had a canister that was nearly finished I thought I would add it to the tests it was interesting to see that the heat exchangers performed slightly better under low pressure conditions. That is to say they conserved more fuel even though they took longer to boil. In my communication with Primus since the video they have informed me that they now had a new canister stove that also regulates pressure. I may have to get it and do some more tests.
@@KevinOutdoors It sounds like you would then have two pressure regulated stoves. I wonder if there is way good way to determine the most efficient non-regulated stove and put that up against a micro-regulated stove by running two nearly empty (by weight) cannisters and transfer the heat into a large volume of water. You can bleed off excess fuel (with the right apparatus) in one cannister, to get the cannisters to be equal weight. Be sure to use all the fuel but not boil the water. See which stove raises the temperature the highest. Of course this will only compare the two stoves but would be interesting non-the-less. No heat exchanger required with this test idea. Aside: I used to have spreadsheets full of stove systems tests with each configuration yielding an efficiency rating. The most efficient I came up with for the weight, was using a pot nested inside a Titanium cone with a remote fuel cannister/bottle outside the cone. There was only a 5% difference in efficiency between a 1.1 Liter Titanium pot and a 900 Liter aluminum pot with heat exchanger but ouf course the heat exchanger pot was much heavier. I had equal water weight ( about 700 mL) and temperature in the pots when conducting the tests. Some of the weight benefit was lost due to the added weight of a stove with a remote fuel source. For safety reasons, this was essential. For winter trips, warming the fuel source with body heat is always more efficient.
Great test. It answers a question I've had for ages about the heat exchanger pots. With your in-pot cooking, any boil-over would be a PITA to clean up with the exchangers so there's another negative.
Hi Kevin My go to stove it the Primus OmniFuel 2. I love the fact of using various fuels. It is bomb proof and has seen me through some long camps. Yes it is heavy and big. I have never broke it or had any problem with it. In Scotland i use poundland shops for the pots and frying pan. They are a £1 or £2 a pot. I assume like a dollar store type $1 or $2 a pot. I cut the handles off and use a pot gripper. I have to say they are as good as any so called named brands on the camping market. At the price they are at i don't worry if they get damaged. I have been camping for almost forty years and just because a item has a name don't mean it is good. Keep up the good work Cheers
Best test so far. With The integrated heat exchanger, the thing I found is (and you saw with a low pressure canister), is that they are significantly more efficient vs regular pot at medium heat. So if you want to save fuel, turn it down and chill. You should do a test with your favourite regular pot a low, medium and full heat and see how much more fuel efficient it is. Ps the msr heat exchanger has the disadvantage of being very hard to clean any spills (think bear bait) so probably best for snow.
Thanks Réal, Great suggestion. I actually did that test a few years ago. It doesn't have a great title so probably doesn't get found very often. Enjoy! ruclips.net/video/SIjgdcZGUWw/видео.html
It would be interesting to see a shootout between just aluminum heat exchanger pots of similar size but with a quality alcohol burner like the Toaks siphon burner. Not everyone appreciates the noise and bulk of the canister type stoves. Thanks for a well done video on this subject.
I haven't tested it but it certainly would. Wind can be the biggest heat thief of any system. Check out my most recent video - I revisit the MSR heat exchanger and find out it can be more efficient if it is lowered on the pot. In that new configuration it also acts as a windscreen.
A HUGE thank you! Then i will bring only a regular pot on longer trips bc. weight. Btw, do you recomend using the smaller pot with exchanger for alcohol stoves like Triangia? Thinking of cleaning sot under and between lamells.
Thank you for posting a very comprehensive test, I’m presently waiting for a heat exchanger kettle to arrive fir a specific 3 day walk where we may to to filter and boil most of our water so 2 people 3l each a day rounded to 20ltrs It’s going to come down to weather we need to carry 2 or 3 canisters I had assumed that the exchanger would be significantly more efficient than you showed Thank you
Good work. I'd be interested to see the difference boiling with the lid and without the lid. This might be a challenge to measure the temp, as the lid would have to be fully closed. But I expect more savings than with the heat exchanger.
Thanks for the video and the great data. When these 1st came out, I thought it was a bad idea even though Backpacker Magazine gave it their product of the year award. Heat travels from a hotter surface to a cooler surface. I always thought that in colder temps that you would pull heat OUT of the pot, especially after you turn off the flame. Several years ago I saw a review where it caused longer boil times than without the exchanger. All that being said I couldn't justify the expence or added weight. I want to experiment with an Outback Oven hood at capturing heat that would normally wrap around the pot and into the atmosphere. Thanks again for your video.
Living in the dark ages, as I do, my real world experience is very good with heat exchanger kettles. I use the same style of penny stove that I first made decades ago and with the limited heat output these things really work. I have happily fed three of us for ten days just boiling water for tea (yes I'm British) and for rehydrating hot food. I've done various bench tests and I was getting about 30% improvement in efficiency. You do have to mess with the kettle height to get the best from them as they are designed to capture heat that otherwise escapes up the sides of the kettle and I think the less intense heat from an alcohol stove suits these really well. I wish I could find one that had a more squat design as I think this would improve things even more. Interesting video.
Interesting, thanks for the comment. I have found that when the LPG canister is almost empty (and lower pressure) I get more efficiency with a heat exchanger. I'll have to give that some thought and perhaps do these tests again with an alcohol stove which has less heat than the LPG.
@@KevinOutdoors That makes sense as on full blast your turbo gas powered welding torch flame thrower thingy will fire out way more heat than an old penny stove but most of it will be wasted as it pours up the sides of your pot. Especially as you guys all seem to want tall thin pots, where as i have proved over the years that wide and shallow is the way to go. If you have a temperature probe stick it by the side of your pot and you'll soon see what I'm on about. The beauty of a heat exchanger is it captures some of that heat and puts it to good use rather than letting waft away on the breeze. As I said I'm old and set in my ways but I get the level of efficiency I need from an alcohol stove fashioned by me and if it takes 2mins more to boil my water that's more time to enjoy the view!
Have you tested these with an alcohol burner like Triangia? Maby they are great for that use since the flame spread more up against the sides than an gas stove?
Chefs are looking over the fence to save on their gas bills. I wonder if this helps performance better with parabolic solar cookers as I can see issues with uneven heating of food, unlike a distributed flame.
Nice vid! The defuser is designed for long winter expeditions. -Not looking to reduce boil time, -trying to not run out of fuel. We use a heat exchangers on long mountaineering trips where melting snow for water requires GALLONS of fuel. It really adds up over time! 😁
Thanks BestBackpacker, I suppose altitude may change things. Although I measured boil times it was the fuel consumption I was most interested in. The MSR website advertises a 25% efficiency gain. I'm not seeing it.
@@KevinOutdoors haha.. msr put 25%?!?! 😜That's hilarious. Kevin, THANK YOU FOR THE VIDEO, you have inspired me to make a vid about my winter expedition setup ... I use the defuser as a part of it, but I don't think my whole, elaborate system can boast 25%!!!! 🤣😂 Heck, at 25%, you could use four of them and you wouldn't have to bring ANY fuel at all!!!
Well done review and test. But, it looks as though you missed the point with the MSR. It should hang down 3/4 to 1" below the bottom of the pot in order to capture the heat from the stove, channel it up around the pot and help block the wind a little. I noticed the other one you tested did extend down past the bottom of the pot. I'm curious to know if there would be any difference with the MSR if you tested this way. Cheers, Happy Camping.
Great observation. I did a follow-up video with the MSR heat exchanger at various measures below the bottom of the pot. 1" is about the extreme and then the exchanger fall off. The exchanger works better but still doesn't save enough fuel to justify the weight of the exchanger itself, unless you are on a very long trip.
@@KevinOutdoors hi Kevin thanks. After watching this one I discovered your other video. Well done . Thanks. My comment there was, it may not always be just about the weight and cost since I've been on extended backcountry trips where we ran out of fuel. I'm wondering if the fuel savings would justify carrying one of these or to just bring more fuel. 🤔 Anyway, I have a sheet metal shop and plan on making some of these out of aluminum scraps for weight saving and no cost. Aluminum conducts nearly as well as copper yet is alot lighter. I'll test them using your methods. Thanks.
@@atstancioff That is an interesting idea and I would love to hear the results. I mention the cost ($) in the video but for most backpackers the real cost is weight. In both tests the heat exchangers work it is just that they provide so little advantage that the trip would need to be very very long before you realized that advantage. Normally folks would resupply. I like the idea of testing other metals. The MSR looks like copper but it is actually brass. Please let me know how the tests work out. Or if you need me to test a few for you :)
Hey - great video. But you are fitting the MSR heat exchanger incorrectly. It looks like you have it flush with the bottom of the pot. It is supposed to hang over the bottom of the pot at least 1/2 inch (I do more). Think of aligning it like the bottom of the Eta Express pot. I would love to see a retest on that one - I have definitely observed bubbles forming on the side of the pot with the MSR heat exchanger and have always wondered whether it was worth the weight.
Thanks Richard, I have had that comment a few times. I checked with MSR and they said it should be flush with the pot. I may do another test but that slight adjustment would have to really improve the situation before it made up for the weight of the exchanger.
@@KevinOutdoors They told you flush? Wow - I have had mine since the 90s and I definitely remember being directed to let it hang. Well, whatevs. I think you are right on the weight cost/benefit (I was using it on 40-day backpacking trips with 10 day resupplies, which might have justified it). I also liked the reduced wait times for hot drinks and mac and cheese ;-). Great channel!
@@rickhimes I suspect they changed their direction for safety. Anything that retains heat lower than the burner can be dangerous for LPG stoves. I think that is why the Outback Oven no longer exists. It wasn't meant for top mounted LPG stoves but once the product is out you have no control on how it gets used. If MSR recommended letting the lip hang down somebody somewhere would take it too far and there would eventually be an explosion.
@@KevinOutdoors Ahh litigation....down here in the lower 48 it's a way of life! Totally forgot about the outback oven. I think I might still have a bake-packer somewhere...
Interesting test thanks In the UK we have a company called OEX their HE aluminium pot is an ideal diameter for the Pocket Rocket and at £19 somewhat less expensive than the titanium pots of the same capacity. Imho the heat exchanger based pots seem to stop heat loss sideways more than actually exchanging any heat.
Another balanced and technical review, Kevin, thanks. I guess you would also lose versatility in places where you could use an open fire instead of a stove, by comparison to a regular pot. 👍🙂
I am very pleased with my Optimus Crux Weekend he system, in particular for my solo need and typical 6 day trips. I have been on group trips where the MSR Reactor boiled larger quantities of water in extremely fast time. (Just don't try to simmer with it!)
Thanks for the review. I bought a small Titanium (off brand) and was planning a time test compared to my Optimus with heat exchanger (bigger and HEAVIER). Because my impression is the Optimus boils much much quicker. I just don't want the size and weight in my pack!
Exactly, even when these things do operate at the efficiency they claim they still weigh a lot. They have to be very efficient to save you enough fuel to matter if overall weight of the system is what you are concerned with.
Thank you for a very thorough review. I think that those heat exchangers, for your pots, also acts as a wind screen. If you do another review, can you have them next to a fan and see it that makes any difference with boil times and fuel consumption. Have a great day. Cheers
Thanks Gil, The heat exchangers I have don't function as a windscreen. Both exchangers sit above the burner. Wind would probably make them work even less poorly.
The MSR heat exchanger is anodized aluminum with a stainless steel band, the product of punching out pieces of the Whisperlite stove. It's original purpose was saving fuel in extreme winter conditions on long expeditions. A good, close-fitting windscreen helps more with efficiency and weighs far less than this clever, but ill-conceived, relatively heavy exchanger. Titanium foil is what I use for my homemade alcohol stove. Rolls up to the size of a pencil and weighs just a few grams. With resupply on America's long trails being a few days to a week apart, the weight savings in fuel are non-existent, since the fancy aluminum pot weighs more than a titanium pot of the same size. I boil water in all seasons with my alcohol stove. It doesn't produce the btu that other fuels do, but it's reliable, the fuel container can be as light as a disposable water bottle (I prefer something sturdier), and, in the winter, I use the alcohol as a fire starter, boil water by the fire, use the hot water in a stainless steel bottle in my sleeping bag to stay warm, and begin the morning boil with warm water from the night's hot water bottle, saving time and fuel. Sleeping with fuel of any type makes your stove more efficient in the morning.
That was great info. Thank you brother, I was about to buy some heat exchanger stuff but I will pass on it because of this. You saved me a buch of time and disapointment, I'll stay with my toaks stuff for now I guess, I was just looking for something new. I've had a lot of experiance with real heat exchangers and they are amazing but now that you've pointed this out I can see that these are a little cheezy in this application. open air may be part of why they don't work and I don't think a wind screen would capture enough heat. the real ones in other applications are machanical and capture heat better to transfer the heat a little more "force" I guess you could say, for lack of better words. either way that was valuable info.
Thanks, unfortunately I think a lot of people buy into the concept. "if it costs $50 it must work, and if I spent the money I believe it more." This is one of the things I find fun about RUclips, it is a great place to test misconceptions.
Thanks for doing the tests. I'd be interested to learn how much the environment temperature influences boil-time and fuel consumption. I would assume that it makes a big difference if its -10c, 0c, or +10c.
Good question Alexander, I have done a test like that and the ambient temperature doesn't matter at all. Well at least I can't detect it. I know counter intuitive. Fuel will burn at a constant temperature no matter what the ambient temperature. When the stove turns on the air under the pot is instantly the temperature of the burning fuel. There is probably a bit of a delay in heating the pot but thin pots heat up fast. ruclips.net/video/9dbf1zBueLU/видео.html
Kevin Outdoors Thanks for the link! Yes, the result is counter intuitive! Unrelated to my comment above: I've also observed with my alcohol burner, that a wind screen is a must. With the screen in place my little titanium toaks can boil the stanley adventure kit pot in under five minutes, without the screen it hardly manages to provide hot water!
Yes, windscreens are key. I also did a wind screen test and what I have learned from all these tests is that wind is the single largest factor in reducing stove efficiency. That is why I started doing these tests inside my garage so that I get more consistent results.
The key with heat exchangers is for trips where melting snow/ice is your only source of water. There is important techniques for heat exchanger usage, particularly, when melting snow, always put water in the bottom of the pot to sort of "prime" the snow melting process. That single step can save you a ton of time and fuel...
Awesome channel! I’ve noticed that those fuel canisters can get covered with water condensation after a long heating, especially when nearly empty. Did you wipe off any condensate before weighing?
I use the Jetboil 1.5L Ceramic FluxRing Cook Pot with the MSR Whisperlite International Stove. The pot sits correctly on the Whisperlite Stove. It boils water really quick even in sub zero conditions and the Whisperlite sits well inside the pot (with a soft cloth to protect the ceramic coating). As for the weight, not an issue! The combination is unchallenged in my humble opinion!
Coming back to this video I'vre read on a related issue: Carbon monoxide emission, which can really be quite dangerous if you use it inside a tent. Especially if it's poorly ventilated. It sems heat exchanger pots can cool down the flame so quick the gas doesn't have time to burn properly. This doesn't just make for iniffiient use of fuel, but it can be dangerous if you breathe in enough of the fumes.
Are you sure about these calculations? Using a standard 230g gas canister for the Primus ETA pot, you will boil 2 cups of water about 38 times and for a titanium pot almost 29 times. So to boil this amount of water 38 times in a titanium pot, you would need a canister that holds about 75 g of gas more. Some brands offer 300g gas cartridges, which weigh about 500g in total (a 230g cartridge is about 360-380g in total). So if you take a titanium pot with you and a cartridge about 130g heavier, you will get the same effect as in the case of the ETA pot and the 230g gas cartridge. Am I wrong? I'm just not sure if 300g gas cartridges are available in the US.
Hey Kevin. Very thorough and interesting. Not worth it as you said. I'm pretty low tech, a fancy Feast stove with a Toaks 750 mug and I'm good to go😁 Thanks a lot for the demo🍻
Try a diffuser and note the fuel consumption. Exchangers IMHO are for cold to below freezing. Diffuser thru conduction transfers heat from source to pot evenly. 😉
The best way to save fuel is to use a proper wind screen. After doing lots of tests, I have come to the conclusion that 'heat sink' or heat exchanger options aren't really worth the extra cost and weight of the system.
I've read all the replies up till now. Here are the details of my comparison tests: I rec'd my Fire-Maple 1L Aluminum heat exchanger pot this afternoon. I ran 3 complete comparison tests between the new heat exchanger pot & the one I've been using which is a 750ml Titanium Toaks. I have & used my Soto Windmaster stove. For all tests, I turned the stove's heat output control wide open. Yes, I added the same volume of water (24oz) that was the same temperature to both pots in all 3 comparison tests. Boil times & fuel consumption between the 2 pots were infinitesimally inconsequential. I'm planning to return the new heat exchanger pot to amazon tomorrow. Not what I was expecting. Curiously, Soto hasn't marketed any Heat Exchanger type of pots. Considering that Soto is THE company that first introduced fuel-efficient stoves with "Regulators" you'd think if heat exchanger pots actually resulted in lower boil times & significant fuel savings they would have been one of the first companies to introduce heat exchangers on their pots. Just a thought/observation. I'm hoping others will compare the pot they've been using with an aftermarket Heat Exchanger type of pot. I eagerly look forward to their test results. Yes, I've just subscribed & rang the notification bell.
For the MSR heat exchanger I understood that it was designed to be used with 1/2 of it below the bottom of the pot. This way it captures the heat flowing off the bottom of the pot and channeling it up along the sides. This would mimic more closely the way the new integrated pots are designed. This should help reduce the boil times but likely not enough unless it is a long trip or there is snow melting involved.
That would probably be more efficient but it is a common misconception that it is intended to be used like that. I have had that comment before and did some research with MSR. They clearly do not recommend using the heat exchanger in that manner.
@@Kid0West I contacted them directly. It doesn't matter what stove you have they don't recommend it. I think that is because people aren't mindful of the type of stove that they have and it can be dangerous with a stove mounted on an LPG canister.
@@KevinOutdoors I think it does. Was your question specifically about LPG canister directly attached to the burner or a generic question about its use? They state on their website that liquid fuelled stove and remote-burner stoves can be used this way. These designs separate the fuel from the burner assembly so the possible increased heat from the exchanger cannot affect the fuel canister. The configuration you tested has the canister directly attached to the burner this puts the canister in a possible situation where it could become too hot. Ironically this can be useful especially in cold winter conditions where the fuel in the canister won't vaporize although this becomes tricky as what is "too hot". To your point, they may simply feel is is easier to give one simplified answer. I would be curios to read the instructions that come with it, mine have long disappeared but they did instruct you to have it below.
the msr heat exchanger is not supposed to be flush with the bottom of the pot, you're supposed to have it 1-2 inches down below the bottom of the pot for it to work properly. also, it works better on the msr aluminum pots, not so well on the stainless ones due to the poor heat conductivity of stainless.
This isn't the first comment like this that I have received. You will not find any official MSR information online that would suggest that the exchanger should extend below the bottom of the pot. I even contacted MSR about this and have e-mails from them which clearly state that the exchanger should be flush with the pot and not extend below. I have no doubt that the exchanger will work better like this, and this may have been the original intent, but I can see how this may be a health and safety liability for the company if a fuel bottle ever over heated because it the exchanger was mounted too low. I will have to do a test at about 1/2" lower top measure the difference in efficiency. Once you start going lower someone is going to go 3" lower and then you will have an exploding canister.
@@KevinOutdoors the heat exchanger was designed before msr made canister-top stoves, at that time all of their stoves had remote-mounted fuel sources so canister heating was not an issue so the older instructions stated how to use the heat exchanger properly. i understand why msr would have changed the instructions for legal reasons but really they should state on the package that the heat exchanger is only to be used with a remote-mounted fuel source.. an interesting tidbit of info is the outer stainless steel band riveted to the orange aluminum inner, it's actually a waste product from stamping out whisperlite priming pans which is why you see unused rivet holes at all 4 corners around the circle.
Heat exchangers are 100% worth it. I can boil 2 cups of water in 1 minute 15 seconds with my msr pocket Felix stove with my olicamp heat exchange pot. In another pot it took 1 minute 50 seconds. Much more efficient on fuel and time. Sorry but it’s worth it for me.
Right, it is certainly faster and likely more efficient but how does that weight efficiency compare to the added weight of the exchanger that you are carrying?
So I think the advantage of the MSR, is more of an issue when being out in the cold. Like people said in the forums, it's best when winter camping. With no direct heat, and no insulation, those thin pots will just bleed heat away like crazy especially on a cold day, and with a breeze. But would I deal with the weight and bulk? Maybe now with the carbon tax it'd be worth it. As for the other one, isn't that just basically a really efficient wind screen? Isn't the point to just capture as much heat as possible, especially on a breezy day.? For that reason it could be worth it, but then you're limited to canister stoves like yours. I believe the burner has to fit inside that ring, and most non canister stoves won't, and certainly not my stick stoves. So I would be unlikely to buy those either. Those jet boil things are, from what I hear, a set up only for boiling. There's no simmer. So for me personally, I don't even know why someone would even want one. You can't cook on one, just boil shit. I could be wrong, but why not get something that takes a whole minute longer, but can actually cook?
Hi Jim, I have done boil tests at different air temperatures. It is counter intuitive but air temperature makes no difference on fuel efficiency (at least I can't measure it). ruclips.net/video/9dbf1zBueLU/видео.html So adding a heat exchanger won't improve the situation. On the MSR website they claim 25% fuel efficiency so I should have realized more savings even with only two cups of water. The Eta Express specifically says on the side of the pot to not put the stove into the hole on the bottom. The Eta Express comes with an additional wind screen so the heat exchanger isn't for wind. It actually does work it just isn't as efficient as advertised either.
Great test... When I hear people saying oh yeh jetboil only 7g fuel instead of 10g.... Im thinking yes for kit that's twice the price and you can't throw it on a fire... I think maybe a jetboil style might be worth it in your car if you are boiling brews daily...or long trips on snow melting duties.. But other than that a big bulky expensive gimmick
Yes, I would love to test out a Jet Boil. I still can't bring myself to make that expense just for a video. These things clearly save a bit of fuel but the overall weight (and cost) of the systems don't justify it.
Kevin Outdoors I always suspected that they’d give real benefits, but over time, with no cancelling external factors. A nice thorough test which will probably mean Primus has a hit out on you. I’ve enjoyed your company my friend and I hope Witness Protection puts you somewhere nice. Take care.
LOL, now you have me worried. I like both Primus and MSR very much but I will be contacting them and will be asking how they calculate their efficiencies. Most disappointed was my wife who got the MSR heat exchanger more than 20 years ago when it came with a stove she bought. She carried that exchanger all over New Zealand in her younger days thinking it was the way to go. :)
My jet boil has a heat exchanger and acts as a wind gaurd and kills my other burners in the wind, rain or snow. The worse the weather the more I appreciate it. On a regular sunny day any burner is fine. I love my brs but not in adverse conditions.
For backpacking the big bulky space-taking MSR heat exchanger was a turn off, before the results were even in. As a mom, I could see all those little ruffled spaces as a nightmare to clean, especially if any food got bubbled down into them-and food you can’t clean out means dealing with more rodents. No thank-you for that image. I guess if you were winter camping and bringing supplies in on a sled and trying to keep water hotter longer and not as much rodent action-it could be ok for that.
I've used one of those pots with the integrated heat exchanger on my Optimus Polaris stove burning gasoline and it was the fastest boil I've ever seen in my life. Boiled a liter in a little over a minute. I think it might depend on the output of the stove. Smaller butane stoves don't output much heat compared to larger gas/white gas stoves, so the heat exchanger captures a lot of the otherwise wasted heat flowing up around the sides of the pot. If the stove isn't that large (i.e., butane) then it won't make a huge difference. Just my 2 cents (which rounds down to $0 now, anyway)
Have you tested it though? Just because the boil is fast it doesn't mean it is fast enough to justify the weight saving. You could have a flame thrower vapourise the water, it's irrellevant fella
I think the best thing you can buy for your stove is a good windshield, in reality the additional weight of the exchanges versus the extra gas you might use is probably not worth the cost. Of course these all go out the window when your 8000 feet up in thick snow..... _I still think the best thing you can buy is a decent windshield and keep the heat in. the other thing to remember is in the winter use propane and not butane. or better still use a good old fashioned Paraffin Primus or Optimus stove.
You're welcome! I did an update video on the MSR exchanger. Lowering the exchanger below the bottom of the pot allows you to squeeze out a lot more efficiency but you would still need to do a lot of boiling on a trip to offset the weight of the fuel you save.
I do not have a dog in this but you incorrectly installed the MSR exchanger. Directions note to install it with 1/2" below the bottom of the pot. That significantly changes its effect.
Great comment and this is one that I have had many times before. I am doing some tests at different heights right now for another video. I believe this was the recommendation from many years ago as I can't find that info now in any current instructions. I believe MSR switched because they didn't want people with LPG canister overheating the canisters below the stove. I am getting better results but 'significant' is a pretty strong word. The video up in a week or so.
If you're boiling snow for water, it's defiantly worth it. Especially for more than one person. Faster snow melting in cold conditions. More efficient use of fuel and quicker boiling times fot fill water bottles faster. You don't want to dick around boiling water wasting day light on a climb. For the average backpacker it's not worth it. But in cold weather, you get your food that much faster.
That is a fair response. I tried it that way and found that it did improve performance but that the heat exchanger still wasn't really worth it. ruclips.net/video/-h2NRomweuc/видео.html
I was wondering if the MSR heat exchanger would be more efficient if you moved it down on the pot to help trap the heat coming around the bottom of the pot. You may have more heat capture than with it flush. That may not follow the manufactures directions.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
I was the Product Development Manager at MSR when an inventor came to us with the heat exchanger, which we developed and sold. I personally did hundreds of boil-tests on the device and I believe the 20-25% number is valid. One key consideration is that running a stove on a benchtop in still air doesn't show as much relative gain as when there is almost any sideways wind at all. This is when most stoves crap out, but the MSR stove's windscreen, and the heat exchanger maintain high efficiency. The best results I ever got was from a heat-blackened 1 liter stsinless pot onto which I had silver-soldered a corrugated brass wind screen I made on the MSR heat exchanger's corrugation tooling. I cut some small notches where the windscreen hung below the pot so it would fit either Whisperlite or XGK stove pan wires. You can see the vertical line of bubbles in the water where each corrugation solders to the pot. It is necessary that the exchanger sit half to 3/4- inch below the pot bottom, to capture the stove' s heat and conduct into the pot. I got sometimes 80% of the fuel's available heat into the water in still-air, and 70% in my 20mph wind tunnel. It IS worth it, in the field. -Jim Fife MSR 1985-1995.
Thanks Jim, when I contacted MSR they didn't mention the 3/4" adjustment, in fact they told me not to do that. I have had several comments saying I should lower the heat exchanger. I'll have to give that a try in another test. Thanks.
Hi @@KevinOutdoors We hope you do an update by lowering the exchanger so that it serves as a wind shield. In addition, you should also try it with the aluminum and titanium pots I think that logically the result should be significantly better adding these changes
Year ago purchased Boulin 3500 with 11/2 ltr pot,around 40$.Am very happy with speed of water boil,and regulates low for other cooking chores.Currently around 50$,I think is very fair price.
I've seen a lot of videos comparing a lot of things and quite honestly this is one of the best try-it-out comparison videos I've ever seen. It gets right to the point and the graphs are clear as a bell. Nice job! 😎👍
Thanks Peter! Much appreciated!
Thanks for saving me $40 on the MSR heat exchanger!
You're welcome Glenn!
Kevin Outdoors sorry for my bad english (i’m french) i have a eat exchanger for almost 15 years. didnt cost me a lot at the time.... but i use it in 2 ways for the eat and for the wind, since my pot is not always full i can lower it down to protect the flame from the wind... dont know if it as a positive effect ? 🤪 got to say too that i’m on bike travel so weight of a couple gram more not to important for me
Excellent video Kevin. You put to rest the myth of heat exchangers. I have never used one and now I can say I never will. Thanks for taking the time to do this video.
Thanks Rodney. I am going to contact both Primus and MSR and ask how they calculated their efficiencies. Both respectable companies that make good gear but you are right, heat exchangers are a myth.
You've positioned the heat exchanger to the pot improperly: the exchanger needs to extend below the bottom of the pot so it captures and channels the maximum amount of heat up the sides of the pot. With the heat exchange above the bottom edge of the pot, half of the heat that spills around the edge of the pot is lost. When used properly, the exchanger also doubles as a bit of a windscreen.
In addition, maximizing efficiency of the exchanger may require a lower burn rate - perhaps also true for a pot without the exchanger too, but the difference is liable to be larger - but I think you'd find the difference in fuel savings may be larger at a lower temperature.
I may give it a try comparing more variables like cold weather. Some have suggested it performs better when melting snow. But really for $50 it should provide more clear results and you shouldn't have to struggle to find conditions where it performs well.
I do have the heat exchanger installed correctly for this kind of stove. I went to the MSR website and it describes the following... "Multi-Use: When used with liquid fuel stoves, or remote-burner canister stoves like the WindPro™ II, it can act as a wind block by extending below the pot." On an LPG canister stoves it should not extend below the edge of the pot. You don't want to generate too much heat on the canister.
@@KevinOutdoors True for the canister stove. I have the Dragonfly and when used with the pot below the edge, the boil time at full blast is faster. I didn’t measure the fuel use but the stove was used for less time. Even having said that, I still rarely use it.
Imho if you have the folding aluminum windscreen nestled around your pot it is old school yet serves to not only block the wind but also retains heat to warm the bottom of the pot. So could that old school windscreen be the original heat exchanger??
Wind can be the biggest 'heat thief' of any stove system. Windscreens can be very effective at keeping your stove running efficiently. Just remember not to contain the heat around your canister which can be a problem with many LPG canister stoves that mount above the canister.
Another great review. Your channel has been very helpful when it comes to helping me decide on some new cookware. Seems like almost every question I have, you have a video that covers it excellently. You really do have some of the most detailed reviews for camping products that I have seen.
THanks Capt'Wes. When I started these stove and pot videos I had the objective to do something different. There are lots of heat to head boil test videos out there (usually different pots on different stoves) but not a lot of actual fair comparisons. The best guy out there is Hiram Cook who brings a controlled environment to his tests. But Hiram never got into the data and analysis and he focused mainly on alcohol stoves. That is where I saw the opportunity. I appreciate your comments!
Excellent review ... thanks. Your results align nicely with my experiential assumptions. I've used 'heat exchanger' pots in a variety of different circumstances, including in the depths of winter, and found no appreciable difference in either boil speed or fuel consumption. But, I hadn't bothered to sit down and actually do some tests. Great video!
Thanks for sharing, I am getting savings in fuel consumption just not enough to compensate for the extra weight of the exchanger.
I like your data logger. I agree, heat exchanger nah. Wind shield and homemade pot cozy when I want to conserve fuel.
Thanks for watching Mama! Yes I am going to stick with my pot cozy method too.
Great info Kevin!
Thanks Erik!
Interesting comparison. Thanks for the information. Happy Easter!!
Thanks Marie! Happy Easter!
You brought up an interesting point in terms of efficiciency relating to a cannister with less pressure vs. a canister with more pressure. It would be interesting to see how a regulated cannister stove compares to non-regulated cannister stove. Is it gimmick or does the regulated stove save fuel?
Thanks MRo. My stove is the 'Soto micro-regulator'. I use it for these tests because it is supposed to keep a constant pressure. It does seem to maintain constant pressure up until the canister is nearly finished. Since I had a canister that was nearly finished I thought I would add it to the tests it was interesting to see that the heat exchangers performed slightly better under low pressure conditions. That is to say they conserved more fuel even though they took longer to boil. In my communication with Primus since the video they have informed me that they now had a new canister stove that also regulates pressure. I may have to get it and do some more tests.
@@KevinOutdoors It sounds like you would then have two pressure regulated stoves. I wonder if there is way good way to determine the most efficient non-regulated stove and put that up against a micro-regulated stove by running two nearly empty (by weight) cannisters and transfer the heat into a large volume of water. You can bleed off excess fuel (with the right apparatus) in one cannister, to get the cannisters to be equal weight. Be sure to use all the fuel but not boil the water. See which stove raises the temperature the highest. Of course this will only compare the two stoves but would be interesting non-the-less. No heat exchanger required with this test idea. Aside: I used to have spreadsheets full of stove systems tests with each configuration yielding an efficiency rating. The most efficient I came up with for the weight, was using a pot nested inside a Titanium cone with a remote fuel cannister/bottle outside the cone. There was only a 5% difference in efficiency between a 1.1 Liter Titanium pot and a 900 Liter aluminum pot with heat exchanger but ouf course the heat exchanger pot was much heavier. I had equal water weight ( about 700 mL) and temperature in the pots when conducting the tests. Some of the weight benefit was lost due to the added weight of a stove with a remote fuel source. For safety reasons, this was essential. For winter trips, warming the fuel source with body heat is always more efficient.
Great testing and great information on which to base decisions.
Glad you liked it!
Very helpful. You've got a new follower in Scotland!
Hey thanks, and welcome!
Great test. It answers a question I've had for ages about the heat exchanger pots. With your in-pot cooking, any boil-over would be a PITA to clean up with the exchangers so there's another negative.
Yes absolutely a boil over would be difficult to deal with.
Hi Kevin My go to stove it the Primus OmniFuel 2. I love the fact of using various fuels. It is bomb proof and has seen me through some long camps. Yes it is heavy and big. I have never broke it or had any problem with it. In Scotland i use poundland shops for the pots and frying pan. They are a £1 or £2 a pot. I assume like a dollar store type $1 or $2 a pot. I cut the handles off and use a pot gripper. I have to say they are as good as any so called named brands on the camping market. At the price they are at i don't worry if they get damaged. I have been camping for almost forty years and just because a item has a name don't mean it is good. Keep up the good work Cheers
Thanks for the report Alan. I love hearing how people go about assembling a system that works for them!
Best test so far. With The integrated heat exchanger, the thing I found is (and you saw with a low pressure canister), is that they are significantly more efficient vs regular pot at medium heat. So if you want to save fuel, turn it down and chill. You should do a test with your favourite regular pot a low, medium and full heat and see how much more fuel efficient it is.
Ps the msr heat exchanger has the disadvantage of being very hard to clean any spills (think bear bait) so probably best for snow.
Thanks Réal, Great suggestion. I actually did that test a few years ago. It doesn't have a great title so probably doesn't get found very often. Enjoy! ruclips.net/video/SIjgdcZGUWw/видео.html
It would be interesting to see a shootout between just aluminum heat exchanger pots of similar size but with a quality alcohol burner like the Toaks siphon burner. Not everyone appreciates the noise and bulk of the canister type stoves. Thanks for a well done video on this subject.
Thanks for the suggestion, I may do something like that.
It would be interesting to do the test in a windy situation and see if the exchangers help with the wind
I haven't tested it but it certainly would. Wind can be the biggest heat thief of any system. Check out my most recent video - I revisit the MSR heat exchanger and find out it can be more efficient if it is lowered on the pot. In that new configuration it also acts as a windscreen.
A HUGE thank you! Then i will bring only a regular pot on longer trips bc. weight. Btw, do you recomend using the smaller pot with exchanger for alcohol stoves like Triangia? Thinking of cleaning sot under and between lamells.
Thank you for posting a very comprehensive test, I’m presently waiting for a heat exchanger kettle to arrive fir a specific 3 day walk where we may to to filter and boil most of our water so 2 people 3l each a day rounded to 20ltrs
It’s going to come down to weather we need to carry 2 or 3 canisters
I had assumed that the exchanger would be significantly more efficient than you showed
Thank you
I intend to continue testing these things but in my opinion they are mostly hype.
@@KevinOutdoors I will do my test but I’m now expecting to find that I revert back to my titanium pot and save 120g, thanks again.
Cool. Wonder how many of those get shipped off the trail and end up in a closet or yard sale. 🤔
Good question! :)
good testing - much better testing than most reviews!
Thanks, I may try this again when there is some snow to melt.
Thanks for Your experimentation and knowledge
My pleasure.
Good work. I'd be interested to see the difference boiling with the lid and without the lid. This might be a challenge to measure the temp, as the lid would have to be fully closed. But I expect more savings than with the heat exchanger.
Yes I have seen videos like that. The lid does make a big difference.
Thanks for the video and the great data. When these 1st came out, I thought it was a bad idea even though Backpacker Magazine gave it their product of the year award. Heat travels from a hotter surface to a cooler surface. I always thought that in colder temps that you would pull heat OUT of the pot, especially after you turn off the flame. Several years ago I saw a review where it caused longer boil times than without the exchanger. All that being said I couldn't justify the expence or added weight. I want to experiment with an Outback Oven hood at capturing heat that would normally wrap around the pot and into the atmosphere. Thanks again for your video.
Thanks J&B, I appreciate the comments!
I would be interested in seeing how they compare when melting ice or snow.
I may have to do that this year now that there is some snow on the ground.
Living in the dark ages, as I do, my real world experience is very good with heat exchanger kettles.
I use the same style of penny stove that I first made decades ago and with the limited heat output these things really work. I have happily fed three of us for ten days just boiling water for tea (yes I'm British) and for rehydrating hot food.
I've done various bench tests and I was getting about 30% improvement in efficiency. You do have to mess with the kettle height to get the best from them as they are designed to capture heat that otherwise escapes up the sides of the kettle and I think the less intense heat from an alcohol stove suits these really well. I wish I could find one that had a more squat design as I think this would improve things even more.
Interesting video.
Interesting, thanks for the comment. I have found that when the LPG canister is almost empty (and lower pressure) I get more efficiency with a heat exchanger. I'll have to give that some thought and perhaps do these tests again with an alcohol stove which has less heat than the LPG.
@@KevinOutdoors That makes sense as on full blast your turbo gas powered welding torch flame thrower thingy will fire out way more heat than an old penny stove but most of it will be wasted as it pours up the sides of your pot. Especially as you guys all seem to want tall thin pots, where as i have proved over the years that wide and shallow is the way to go. If you have a temperature probe stick it by the side of your pot and you'll soon see what I'm on about. The beauty of a heat exchanger is it captures some of that heat and puts it to good use rather than letting waft away on the breeze.
As I said I'm old and set in my ways but I get the level of efficiency I need from an alcohol stove fashioned by me and if it takes 2mins more to boil my water that's more time to enjoy the view!
Have you tested these with an alcohol burner like Triangia? Maby they are great for that use since the flame spread more up against the sides than an gas stove?
Chefs are looking over the fence to save on their gas bills. I wonder if this helps performance better with parabolic solar cookers as I can see issues with uneven heating of food, unlike a distributed flame.
Awesome testing. Thanks for sharing
Thanks Martin!
Nice vid!
The defuser is designed for long winter expeditions. -Not looking to reduce boil time, -trying to not run out of fuel. We use a heat exchangers on long mountaineering trips where melting snow for water requires GALLONS of fuel. It really adds up over time! 😁
Thanks BestBackpacker, I suppose altitude may change things. Although I measured boil times it was the fuel consumption I was most interested in. The MSR website advertises a 25% efficiency gain. I'm not seeing it.
@@KevinOutdoors haha.. msr put 25%?!?! 😜That's hilarious. Kevin, THANK YOU FOR THE VIDEO, you have inspired me to make a vid about my winter expedition setup ... I use the defuser as a part of it, but I don't think my whole, elaborate system can boast 25%!!!!
🤣😂
Heck, at 25%, you could use four of them and you wouldn't have to bring ANY fuel at all!!!
Well done review and test. But, it looks as though you missed the point with the MSR. It should hang down 3/4 to 1" below the bottom of the pot in order to capture the heat from the stove, channel it up around the pot and help block the wind a little.
I noticed the other one you tested did extend down past the bottom of the pot. I'm curious to know if there would be any difference with the MSR if you tested this way. Cheers, Happy Camping.
Great observation. I did a follow-up video with the MSR heat exchanger at various measures below the bottom of the pot. 1" is about the extreme and then the exchanger fall off. The exchanger works better but still doesn't save enough fuel to justify the weight of the exchanger itself, unless you are on a very long trip.
@@KevinOutdoors hi Kevin thanks. After watching this one I discovered your other video. Well done . Thanks. My comment there was, it may not always be just about the weight and cost since I've been on extended backcountry trips where we ran out of fuel. I'm wondering if the fuel savings would justify carrying one of these or to just bring more fuel. 🤔 Anyway, I have a sheet metal shop and plan on making some of these out of aluminum scraps for weight saving and no cost. Aluminum conducts nearly as well as copper yet is alot lighter. I'll test them using your methods. Thanks.
@@atstancioff That is an interesting idea and I would love to hear the results. I mention the cost ($) in the video but for most backpackers the real cost is weight. In both tests the heat exchangers work it is just that they provide so little advantage that the trip would need to be very very long before you realized that advantage. Normally folks would resupply. I like the idea of testing other metals. The MSR looks like copper but it is actually brass. Please let me know how the tests work out. Or if you need me to test a few for you :)
Hey - great video. But you are fitting the MSR heat exchanger incorrectly. It looks like you have it flush with the bottom of the pot. It is supposed to hang over the bottom of the pot at least 1/2 inch (I do more). Think of aligning it like the bottom of the Eta Express pot. I would love to see a retest on that one - I have definitely observed bubbles forming on the side of the pot with the MSR heat exchanger and have always wondered whether it was worth the weight.
Thanks Richard, I have had that comment a few times. I checked with MSR and they said it should be flush with the pot. I may do another test but that slight adjustment would have to really improve the situation before it made up for the weight of the exchanger.
@@KevinOutdoors They told you flush? Wow - I have had mine since the 90s and I definitely remember being directed to let it hang. Well, whatevs. I think you are right on the weight cost/benefit (I was using it on 40-day backpacking trips with 10 day resupplies, which might have justified it). I also liked the reduced wait times for hot drinks and mac and cheese ;-). Great channel!
@@rickhimes I suspect they changed their direction for safety. Anything that retains heat lower than the burner can be dangerous for LPG stoves. I think that is why the Outback Oven no longer exists. It wasn't meant for top mounted LPG stoves but once the product is out you have no control on how it gets used.
If MSR recommended letting the lip hang down somebody somewhere would take it too far and there would eventually be an explosion.
@@KevinOutdoors Ahh litigation....down here in the lower 48 it's a way of life! Totally forgot about the outback oven. I think I might still have a bake-packer somewhere...
Good comparison Kevin! 😎
Thanks Randi!
Great test...excellent !!!
Hey, glad you liked it Gilbert!
Hi Kevin Nice Video. Can you tell me what is the exact height of the exchanger?
Hi José, the height is 3 3/4-inches.
@@KevinOutdoors Thank you Kevin!
Excellent video! I love tests like this.
Thanks, they are fun to do!
Interesting test thanks
In the UK we have a company called OEX their HE aluminium pot is an ideal diameter for the Pocket Rocket and at £19 somewhat less expensive than the titanium pots of the same capacity.
Imho the heat exchanger based pots seem to stop heat loss sideways more than actually exchanging any heat.
Thanks Lee, that is how I feel about them. I will be doing some more tests on the subject but so far I don't see any use for them.
Cool Video thanks for the info 👍
Thanks Earl!
Another balanced and technical review, Kevin, thanks. I guess you would also lose versatility in places where you could use an open fire instead of a stove, by comparison to a regular pot. 👍🙂
Thanks Mike, yes you do lose some versatility. Althugh, the MSR heat exchanger is removable and I have used that pot on the fire many times.
Excellent informative review
Glad you liked it
I am very pleased with my Optimus Crux Weekend he system, in particular for my solo need and typical 6 day trips. I have been on group trips where the MSR Reactor boiled larger quantities of water in extremely fast time. (Just don't try to simmer with it!)
Thanks for the comment defcoord! I'll look into those products.
Thanks for the review. I bought a small Titanium (off brand) and was planning a time test compared to my Optimus with heat exchanger (bigger and HEAVIER). Because my impression is the Optimus boils much much quicker. I just don't want the size and weight in my pack!
Exactly, even when these things do operate at the efficiency they claim they still weigh a lot. They have to be very efficient to save you enough fuel to matter if overall weight of the system is what you are concerned with.
Thank you for a very thorough review. I think that those heat exchangers, for your pots, also acts as a wind screen. If you do another review, can you have them next to a fan and see it that makes any difference with boil times and fuel consumption. Have a great day. Cheers
Thanks Gil, The heat exchangers I have don't function as a windscreen. Both exchangers sit above the burner. Wind would probably make them work even less poorly.
Thanks, Kevin!
You are welcome.
The MSR heat exchanger is anodized aluminum with a stainless steel band, the product of punching out pieces of the Whisperlite stove. It's original purpose was saving fuel in extreme winter conditions on long expeditions. A good, close-fitting windscreen helps more with efficiency and weighs far less than this clever, but ill-conceived, relatively heavy exchanger. Titanium foil is what I use for my homemade alcohol stove. Rolls up to the size of a pencil and weighs just a few grams. With resupply on America's long trails being a few days to a week apart, the weight savings in fuel are non-existent, since the fancy aluminum pot weighs more than a titanium pot of the same size. I boil water in all seasons with my alcohol stove. It doesn't produce the btu that other fuels do, but it's reliable, the fuel container can be as light as a disposable water bottle (I prefer something sturdier), and, in the winter, I use the alcohol as a fire starter, boil water by the fire, use the hot water in a stainless steel bottle in my sleeping bag to stay warm, and begin the morning boil with warm water from the night's hot water bottle, saving time and fuel. Sleeping with fuel of any type makes your stove more efficient in the morning.
Thanks for the comments and insight Daniel!
hi kevin been a fan a long time love ur videos 🔥👍🏾
Thanks Kunfu! Much appreciated!
That was great info. Thank you brother, I was about to buy some heat exchanger stuff but I will pass on it because of this. You saved me a buch of time and disapointment, I'll stay with my toaks stuff for now I guess, I was just looking for something new. I've had a lot of experiance with real heat exchangers and they are amazing but now that you've pointed this out I can see that these are a little cheezy in this application. open air may be part of why they don't work and I don't think a wind screen would capture enough heat. the real ones in other applications are machanical and capture heat better to transfer the heat a little more "force" I guess you could say, for lack of better words. either way that was valuable info.
Thanks, unfortunately I think a lot of people buy into the concept. "if it costs $50 it must work, and if I spent the money I believe it more." This is one of the things I find fun about RUclips, it is a great place to test misconceptions.
Thanks for doing the tests.
I'd be interested to learn how much the environment temperature influences boil-time and fuel consumption.
I would assume that it makes a big difference if its -10c, 0c, or +10c.
Good question Alexander, I have done a test like that and the ambient temperature doesn't matter at all. Well at least I can't detect it. I know counter intuitive. Fuel will burn at a constant temperature no matter what the ambient temperature. When the stove turns on the air under the pot is instantly the temperature of the burning fuel. There is probably a bit of a delay in heating the pot but thin pots heat up fast.
ruclips.net/video/9dbf1zBueLU/видео.html
Kevin Outdoors Thanks for the link! Yes, the result is counter intuitive!
Unrelated to my comment above: I've also observed with my alcohol burner, that a wind screen is a must. With the screen in place my little titanium toaks can boil the stanley adventure kit pot in under five minutes, without the screen it hardly manages to provide hot water!
Yes, windscreens are key. I also did a wind screen test and what I have learned from all these tests is that wind is the single largest factor in reducing stove efficiency. That is why I started doing these tests inside my garage so that I get more consistent results.
The key with heat exchangers is for trips where melting snow/ice is your only source of water. There is important techniques for heat exchanger usage, particularly, when melting snow, always put water in the bottom of the pot to sort of "prime" the snow melting process. That single step can save you a ton of time and fuel...
Yes, and it prevents your pot from burning too.
Awesome channel! I’ve noticed that those fuel canisters can get covered with water condensation after a long heating, especially when nearly empty. Did you wipe off any condensate before weighing?
Good suggestion Andy, no I didn't wipe the canister off. But there was no condensation. I have noticed that before but not this time.
Great comparison!
Thanks, I have a follow up video on the MSR heat exchanger in the works. It will be out sometime this week.
I use the Jetboil 1.5L Ceramic FluxRing Cook Pot with the MSR Whisperlite International Stove. The pot sits correctly on the Whisperlite Stove. It boils water really quick even in sub zero conditions and the Whisperlite sits well inside the pot (with a soft cloth to protect the ceramic coating). As for the weight, not an issue! The combination is unchallenged in my humble opinion!
I may have to give that one a try. I have been interested in testing a Jetboil for a long time.
Coming back to this video I'vre read on a related issue: Carbon monoxide emission, which can really be quite dangerous if you use it inside a tent. Especially if it's poorly ventilated.
It sems heat exchanger pots can cool down the flame so quick the gas doesn't have time to burn properly. This doesn't just make for iniffiient use of fuel, but it can be dangerous if you breathe in enough of the fumes.
Thanks for the comment. Yes., I would never use a stove inside a tent or inside any space that isn't ventilated.
Are you sure about these calculations? Using a standard 230g gas canister for the Primus ETA pot, you will boil 2 cups of water about 38 times and for a titanium pot almost 29 times. So to boil this amount of water 38 times in a titanium pot, you would need a canister that holds about 75 g of gas more. Some brands offer 300g gas cartridges, which weigh about 500g in total (a 230g cartridge is about 360-380g in total). So if you take a titanium pot with you and a cartridge about 130g heavier, you will get the same effect as in the case of the ETA pot and the 230g gas cartridge. Am I wrong?
I'm just not sure if 300g gas cartridges are available in the US.
Hey Kevin. Very thorough and interesting. Not worth it as you said. I'm pretty low tech, a fancy Feast stove with a Toaks 750 mug and I'm good to go😁 Thanks a lot for the demo🍻
Thanks Wade, yes I gotta play with my alcohol stoves more :)
Try a diffuser and note the fuel consumption. Exchangers IMHO are for cold to below freezing. Diffuser thru conduction transfers heat from source to pot evenly. 😉
Thanks Travis, I have done tests in cold weather and don't get much difference either.
@travis banks (This is not "your humble opinion," it's fact!) 👍👍👍
Happy Easter 🐣 your almost at 10 k
Thanks Devin, Happy Easter to you and everyone in NH!
Great video, very informative. I think I'll pass on the heat exchangers for now.
Thanks Joe!
I was thinking about adding some coins or metal pieces to the bottom of the pot to catch in a better way the source of heat maybe..
The best way to save fuel is to use a proper wind screen. After doing lots of tests, I have come to the conclusion that 'heat sink' or heat exchanger options aren't really worth the extra cost and weight of the system.
I've read all the replies up till now. Here are the details of my comparison tests:
I rec'd my Fire-Maple 1L Aluminum heat exchanger pot this afternoon.
I ran 3 complete comparison tests between the new heat exchanger pot & the one I've been using which is a 750ml Titanium Toaks.
I have & used my Soto Windmaster stove. For all tests, I turned the stove's heat output control wide open. Yes, I added the same volume of water (24oz) that was the same temperature to both pots in all 3 comparison tests.
Boil times & fuel consumption between the 2 pots were infinitesimally inconsequential.
I'm planning to return the new heat exchanger pot to amazon tomorrow.
Not what I was expecting.
Curiously, Soto hasn't marketed any Heat Exchanger type of pots. Considering that Soto is THE company that first introduced fuel-efficient stoves with "Regulators" you'd think if heat exchanger pots actually resulted in lower boil times & significant fuel savings they would have been one of the first companies to introduce heat exchangers on their pots. Just a thought/observation.
I'm hoping others will compare the pot they've been using with an aftermarket Heat Exchanger type of pot. I eagerly look forward to their test results.
Yes, I've just subscribed & rang the notification bell.
Thanks for subscribing, you are just in time for my follow up video on the subject, just released.
For the MSR heat exchanger I understood that it was designed to be used with 1/2 of it below the bottom of the pot. This way it captures the heat flowing off the bottom of the pot and channeling it up along the sides. This would mimic more closely the way the new integrated pots are designed. This should help reduce the boil times but likely not enough unless it is a long trip or there is snow melting involved.
That would probably be more efficient but it is a common misconception that it is intended to be used like that. I have had that comment before and did some research with MSR. They clearly do not recommend using the heat exchanger in that manner.
They do recommend it to be used that way with the liquid fuelled stoves or remote-burner canister stoves but not your setup.
@@Kid0West I contacted them directly. It doesn't matter what stove you have they don't recommend it. I think that is because people aren't mindful of the type of stove that they have and it can be dangerous with a stove mounted on an LPG canister.
@@KevinOutdoors I think it does. Was your question specifically about LPG canister directly attached to the burner or a generic question about its use? They state on their website that liquid fuelled stove and remote-burner stoves can be used this way. These designs separate the fuel from the burner assembly so the possible increased heat from the exchanger cannot affect the fuel canister. The configuration you tested has the canister directly attached to the burner this puts the canister in a possible situation where it could become too hot. Ironically this can be useful especially in cold winter conditions where the fuel in the canister won't vaporize although this becomes tricky as what is "too hot".
To your point, they may simply feel is is easier to give one simplified answer. I would be curios to read the instructions that come with it, mine have long disappeared but they did instruct you to have it below.
the msr heat exchanger is not supposed to be flush with the bottom of the pot, you're supposed to have it 1-2 inches down below the bottom of the pot for it to work properly. also, it works better on the msr aluminum pots, not so well on the stainless ones due to the poor heat conductivity of stainless.
This isn't the first comment like this that I have received. You will not find any official MSR information online that would suggest that the exchanger should extend below the bottom of the pot. I even contacted MSR about this and have e-mails from them which clearly state that the exchanger should be flush with the pot and not extend below. I have no doubt that the exchanger will work better like this, and this may have been the original intent, but I can see how this may be a health and safety liability for the company if a fuel bottle ever over heated because it the exchanger was mounted too low. I will have to do a test at about 1/2" lower top measure the difference in efficiency. Once you start going lower someone is going to go 3" lower and then you will have an exploding canister.
@@KevinOutdoors the heat exchanger was designed before msr made canister-top stoves, at that time all of their stoves had remote-mounted fuel sources so canister heating was not an issue so the older instructions stated how to use the heat exchanger properly. i understand why msr would have changed the instructions for legal reasons but really they should state on the package that the heat exchanger is only to be used with a remote-mounted fuel source.. an interesting tidbit of info is the outer stainless steel band riveted to the orange aluminum inner, it's actually a waste product from stamping out whisperlite priming pans which is why you see unused rivet holes at all 4 corners around the circle.
Nice work , 👏
Thanks!
Heat exchangers are 100% worth it. I can boil 2 cups of water in 1 minute 15 seconds with my msr pocket Felix stove with my olicamp heat exchange pot. In another pot it took 1 minute 50 seconds. Much more efficient on fuel and time. Sorry but it’s worth it for me.
Right, it is certainly faster and likely more efficient but how does that weight efficiency compare to the added weight of the exchanger that you are carrying?
So I think the advantage of the MSR, is more of an issue when being out in the cold. Like people said in the forums, it's best when winter camping. With no direct heat, and no insulation, those thin pots will just bleed heat away like crazy especially on a cold day, and with a breeze. But would I deal with the weight and bulk? Maybe now with the carbon tax it'd be worth it.
As for the other one, isn't that just basically a really efficient wind screen? Isn't the point to just capture as much heat as possible, especially on a breezy day.? For that reason it could be worth it, but then you're limited to canister stoves like yours. I believe the burner has to fit inside that ring, and most non canister stoves won't, and certainly not my stick stoves. So I would be unlikely to buy those either.
Those jet boil things are, from what I hear, a set up only for boiling. There's no simmer. So for me personally, I don't even know why someone would even want one. You can't cook on one, just boil shit. I could be wrong, but why not get something that takes a whole minute longer, but can actually cook?
Hi Jim, I have done boil tests at different air temperatures. It is counter intuitive but air temperature makes no difference on fuel efficiency (at least I can't measure it). ruclips.net/video/9dbf1zBueLU/видео.html So adding a heat exchanger won't improve the situation. On the MSR website they claim 25% fuel efficiency so I should have realized more savings even with only two cups of water.
The Eta Express specifically says on the side of the pot to not put the stove into the hole on the bottom. The Eta Express comes with an additional wind screen so the heat exchanger isn't for wind. It actually does work it just isn't as efficient as advertised either.
Great test... When I hear people saying oh yeh jetboil only 7g fuel instead of 10g.... Im thinking yes for kit that's twice the price and you can't throw it on a fire... I think maybe a jetboil style might be worth it in your car if you are boiling brews daily...or long trips on snow melting duties.. But other than that a big bulky expensive gimmick
Yes, I would love to test out a Jet Boil. I still can't bring myself to make that expense just for a video. These things clearly save a bit of fuel but the overall weight (and cost) of the systems don't justify it.
Great work Kevin, about time these were exposed.
Thanks Andy! I did expect these to perform a little better than they did.
Kevin Outdoors
I always suspected that they’d give real benefits, but over time, with no cancelling external factors. A nice thorough test which will probably mean Primus has a hit out on you. I’ve enjoyed your company my friend and I hope Witness Protection puts you somewhere nice. Take care.
LOL, now you have me worried. I like both Primus and MSR very much but I will be contacting them and will be asking how they calculate their efficiencies. Most disappointed was my wife who got the MSR heat exchanger more than 20 years ago when it came with a stove she bought. She carried that exchanger all over New Zealand in her younger days thinking it was the way to go. :)
Kevin Outdoors
Forget the contract, it’s your wife that’s going to take out!!!
My jet boil has a heat exchanger and acts as a wind gaurd and kills my other burners in the wind, rain or snow. The worse the weather the more I appreciate it. On a regular sunny day any burner is fine. I love my brs but not in adverse conditions.
I really appreciate that comment Foduro. Gives me some ideas for other videos.
For backpacking the big bulky space-taking MSR heat exchanger was a turn off, before the results were even in. As a mom, I could see all those little ruffled spaces as a nightmare to clean, especially if any food got bubbled down into them-and food you can’t clean out means dealing with more rodents. No thank-you for that image. I guess if you were winter camping and bringing supplies in on a sled and trying to keep water hotter longer and not as much rodent action-it could be ok for that.
Great comment!
I've used one of those pots with the integrated heat exchanger on my Optimus Polaris stove burning gasoline and it was the fastest boil I've ever seen in my life. Boiled a liter in a little over a minute.
I think it might depend on the output of the stove. Smaller butane stoves don't output much heat compared to larger gas/white gas stoves, so the heat exchanger captures a lot of the otherwise wasted heat flowing up around the sides of the pot. If the stove isn't that large (i.e., butane) then it won't make a huge difference.
Just my 2 cents (which rounds down to $0 now, anyway)
Thanks Kurt.
Good point. In the wind too the exchanger would work both ways, letting heat radiate off
Have you tested it though? Just because the boil is fast it doesn't mean it is fast enough to justify the weight saving. You could have a flame thrower vapourise the water, it's irrellevant fella
I think the best thing you can buy for your stove is a good windshield, in reality the additional weight of the exchanges versus the extra gas you might use is probably not worth the cost.
Of course these all go out the window when your 8000 feet up in thick snow..... _I still think the best thing you can buy is a decent windshield and keep the heat in.
the other thing to remember is in the winter use propane and not butane. or better still use a good old fashioned Paraffin Primus or Optimus stove.
Absolutely, wind steals heat from your stove more than any variable.
Thanks so much
You're welcome! I did an update video on the MSR exchanger. Lowering the exchanger below the bottom of the pot allows you to squeeze out a lot more efficiency but you would still need to do a lot of boiling on a trip to offset the weight of the fuel you save.
I do not have a dog in this but you incorrectly installed the MSR exchanger. Directions note to install it with 1/2" below the bottom of the pot. That significantly changes its effect.
Great comment and this is one that I have had many times before. I am doing some tests at different heights right now for another video. I believe this was the recommendation from many years ago as I can't find that info now in any current instructions. I believe MSR switched because they didn't want people with LPG canister overheating the canisters below the stove. I am getting better results but 'significant' is a pretty strong word. The video up in a week or so.
It still comes down to what you are willing to carry with you, efficiency at the cost of weight, you might as well bring more fuel
Exactly Brook, thanks for watching!
Great video! keep it up 💯
Thank You MiaMi!
Jet boil system weighs a lot. Toakes titanium is pretty good
Thanks Sam, that is my conclusion (for now) but I would like to test the Jet boil system just the same.
If you're boiling snow for water, it's defiantly worth it. Especially for more than one person. Faster snow melting in cold conditions. More efficient use of fuel and quicker boiling times fot fill water bottles faster. You don't want to dick around boiling water wasting day light on a climb. For the average backpacker it's not worth it. But in cold weather, you get your food that much faster.
Great comment spicecrop! This winter I will need to do a follow up video.
you need to lower your msr heat exchanger to be effective
That is a fair response. I tried it that way and found that it did improve performance but that the heat exchanger still wasn't really worth it. ruclips.net/video/-h2NRomweuc/видео.html
@@KevinOutdoors Sorry I didn't realise you had another video about this.
boom
Well, fortunately that didn't happen.
Great video. Would definitely never use these items.
Thanks for watching Kimik!
I was wondering if the MSR heat exchanger would be more efficient if you moved it down on the pot to help trap the heat coming around the bottom of the pot. You may have more heat capture than with it flush. That may not follow the manufactures directions.
Dump the heat exchangers! They are a marketing scam.
I am going to do more tests but that is my suspicion.