clarification: I did mention a limiter at the very end , that was a section that got cut from the video just showing how all the hard work was already done and now a limiter only makes it sound slightly worse. So just to be clear there is no limiter used. There is no clipper used either. As explained in the first video any export to a file format that is not 32bit floating point will be clipped. (We are already hearing the clipped signal the 'overs' shown in the DAW are estimates and not really happening, see first video)
Hi! Your videos are really informative and straightforward! I have a question.. What about the LUFS at the end. As we know, in today's music industry, "Louder" has won every time. How to reach at least -8 LUFS with this technique? Because even when Ableton shows 6db over 0 in master section, it is still not loud enough. Does it have to do with mixing the right LUFS with Kick+Bass in the very beginning? Thank you!
@hulioonyoumusic the video is about not looking at numbers, I said in the video "notice how I never had to check my lufs" . 6 over zero tells you nothing because those are peak numbers. You might have one track that is 1 over zero and it's -6 lufs and another tracks that's 10 over zero and -9 lufs, the two are not related. We can not make better music looking at numbers. As I said in the video I never have to check the lufs of my track because I've been referencing using my ears. And also as I say in the video lufs doesn't mean much because it can be fooled, two tracks which sound like the same loudness could have different lufs levels because of all kinds of factors, like something as simple as the bass rhythm. Because Longer bass notes can give you higher lufs, so again it's just another number that doesn't equate to music. Loudness does not "win" . Good tracks win. One of the biggest tracks last year was pawsa , sounds terrible by engineering standards but goes off with a crowd because it was so different. People are not signing tracks or putting them in sets because of lufs measurements. Please let go of chasing numbers. You probably can't get to -8 because you're chasing loudness instead of punch and groove., and you're clearly not referencing enough, or you wouldn't have to check the numbers.
I love the 7 (well 8) step summary of how production is "taught". When I attempt the "mastering" step I usually make everything sound worse, and fall into the bah give up stage. Great video, as always, and thanks for the demonstration at the end rather than just speaking the ideas.
Thanks, @Bthelick! You’re awesome! Adjusting my master to 0dB resolved nearly 90% of my issues. I had spent almost 4 years focusing solely on mastering because everywhere you look, they teach that you need -12dB for mastering, which I now see was misleading. Your tip has transformed my workflow and approach. Now, my main challenge is improving my sound design from scratch using VST plugins like Serum, Diva, and Vital.
Seriously, kudos to ur honesty and thank you for demystifying making dance music again. The sheer amount of youtubers telling you what one needs to buy to have this and that sound can be really overwhelming sometimes. It's nice to finally see someone with obvious industry experience telling everyone to chill and get the basics right. Real value here, gonna pass that message on, thank you for that ❤
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Ben is the best teacher ever! Ignore that red meter, focus on your ears and reference, reference, reference! 🙌🙌🙌🙌
@memecoinmafia2732 Just pull a track into your ableton, set it on out, and then throw a span on the audio track with the sing you chose to use as a reference.
@@sebrosamusic Ive been a professional engineer for 30+ years. Ive worked for D&D in NYC, Patchwerk in ATL, and even assisted in instructional courses at Full Sail. This in unequivocally the wrong way to go about a master. While yes, using a reference track is helpful, your ear alone cant detect certain aspects that analyzers can. The KEY to a proper mix to create sound pockets so your eq’s dont wash each other out. There is no shortcut or technique that will magically do it for you. It takes YEARS of practice and an understanding of your equipment’s capabilities and/or limitations. Once you have a solid mix, then take it to the mastering process, which essentially normalizes the format for multiple platforms. Without mastering, your music may sound perfect on Spotify and terrible on Apple. Just keep in mind that mastering isnt designed to fix your mix, it’s designed to enhance it.
The first person ive seen to stop using a limter and have ableton clip it off was that dubstep producer MR Bill. He was ableton certified and had knowledge of the software like no one else. I think he might of been the first person to do this. I did this method on my latest track. Master clipping at about 4-5 db over 0 and the results were amazing. 0 compression or limiting in the track makes everything sound better and more organic to the ears. No more squashing dynamics for loudness. THANK YOU BTHELICK!!! You have transformed my production skills with these vids over the past year and a half.
If i do this method and then also want to send to a mastering engineer for finishing touches, and i want to ensure the mastering engineer keeps the loudness of the kick and bass relatively samey to what i’ve done in the mix, what if i put a utility with -6dB, then a clipper with a ceiling at -6dB right after. My thinking is that then we would still get the clipping happening at the same point it would if we just rendered the mix at 0db master like you’ve done, but now with 6dB of headroom for the mastering engineer to work with
No just let them do their thing or it's pointless. Let them deal with transients or what's the point of using a professional? Just send them your references and also your mixdown then they will at least match that , hopefully with some improvements. If I'm asked to send to a mastering engineer I send them the -10 , my zero mix and the main references and their purposes (track x was the low end reference etc)
This process reminds me of a time about 7 years, a friend asked me why I like using LANDR. I told them when I upload a track, and set it to the highest loudness option, the result shows me what needs fixing in my track ie I can hear it distorting. I’ve realised now I could have been doing this in my own DAW all along! Thanks Bthelick as always, your content is incredibly helpful!
Woah. One of the very, very, very few channels that teach how things actually are. Even paid courses end up making things just much harder and complicated. I love your no BS approach and wealth of knowledge!
I was making music without mastering for years, so when I finally bought Ozone, it was like taking the super soldier serum. I still think Ozone is worth it, even if just for analysing. It's great being able to see the different bands stereo width. The multiband compression lets you get the treble and bass really bright and firm, and orchestral instruments really loud without ruining them with distortion. Orchestra & loudness are both really important for deathstep.
It might sound better to you, but I promise you that's probably because of the loudness makeup. Multiband compression is extremely damaging, especially if you're not used to using it. Your track may sound louder and you think the compression bands help with balance but in reality, you're having to squash bad sound decisions! and if you listen past the level changes or compensate it currently you'll notice the groove has been flattened. It is a very accomplished tool, but you cannot fix things. Tracks that do get mastered should be a 5% difference not night and day. It's not possible to fix A mix at the mastering stage at all.
@@Bthelick I got Ozone because I heard what a difference (with it's multiband compression) it made to Virtual Riot's "Studio Time S2 EP3 Track From Scratch." He's a headliner at festivals and even his Ozone added a lot. I can't remember what part of the video, but at some point, he adds Ozone to the master early in the writing process to make it loud on playback, and then masters it in more detail at the end. Teninite is one of my favourite music artists of all time and in a stream with Dylan Tallchief he says he starts every song with a master chain that he knows works, and composes straight into it. My tracks are actually quieter with Ozone. When I wasn't using it, I was regularly hitting -2LUFS with just a softclipper on the master, but now I hit -7 to -4, but quiet sounds sound clearer under louder sounds, which is more like my references like Evilwave - Wakanda. The quiet strings in the background of the drop sound very clear under the leads.
@spynasaurus5194 Of course it will make a big difference, but that's the problem. It shouldn't make such a difference if the original sound was in shape , Which is a massive red flag in my opinion . Yes that artist has made it work , probably after many years of bashing their head against a wall (A literal audio wall ) I'm not saying it can't be done. It's just a very unnecessary process. if it's working for you in real world performance i can't argue, but that's the complete opposite of what I do. I ain't a headliner but I have several hundred million streams across myself and the clients I ghost producer for this is the only reason I recommend anything. I used to work that way and I hate fighting against a master processor because it stops you being able to judge sounds at the most important stage of the music making process , sound selection. It's always going to be an unnecessary amount of guesswork If you have to pick a sound and then find out how it's changed by the permanent master processor you have living there. My whole philosophy revolves around having full control over the sound way before that stage. If the sound is right it shouldn't have to be altered so drastically. It's just so much extra work. Then again, you're talking to a guy that releases 3 to 5 tracks a week!
If you want to be a good dance producer, you should watch this video and then watch it again and again until you can recite every word from memory. You could also print it out and put it somewhere that will be seen by you often. I normally put printed stuff like this on the back of the bathroom door so I have something to read while on the throne. I learnt the circle of fifths this way. See you in the morning sir. Thank you.
Maybe it will make some a better dance engineer, this video doesn't have much to do with production. I think another essential lesson is knowing that difference (if you want to do this for a living that is). Many of the best producers in the world don't touch the mixing or mastering side of things.
@Bthelick with so many artists starting to 'produce' their own work over the last few years, one very common misconception amongst the ones struggling i found is that producers and engineers are one in the same
@Bthelick lol I've gotten to wear it just tell them produce your work if you want but my goodness let an engineer give it love it deserves lol I will definitely go scope that video tho lol will be nice hear someone else rant about it 🤣🫂
Great video and information. I work a lot with live music and share the same approach, except sidechain compression (which hardly ever sound good with live instruments). I avoid any processing on the masterbus until the very end of the mixing process. The limiter I use only in true peak mode to get rid of short spikes and pump up the level a bit. All the loudness and energy in the mix comes from the processing on individual channels and buses. Most of the time live sounds need quite a lot of healthy compression to sound good in a dence mix. This is the only way to make live music sound loud and proud, if needed. I don't believe that heavy compression destroys the modern music, as many people say. The bad and uneducated decisions about sound processing in general do make music sound bad and uninteresting.
Yes it's always an ear training issue. I don't think it sounds 'bad' when done correctly but it's just rarely needed. And as there's so much misinformation out there plus much of my audience doesn't have the ear training I just tend to advise against it in general. "No compression" is just the shocking news some need to wake up and start actively listening for dynamics.
Great video! It just shows you don't need a massive Master Chain if your sound selection & mix are making all of the moves. I recommend adding a Saturator set to 'Digital Clip' on your Master (with High Quality mode, Color, and Soft Clip turned off). When enabled you can get a real-time idea of how your track will sound clipped at 24-bit or 16-bit before even exporting it. Cheers mate!
You're already hearing your sound clipped though! Those 'overs' you see in the master channel are estimations, they didn't exist in the real world sound output that leaves the DAW. You are hearing the converted audio from your audio interface which by nature can't be a floating point signal, so you're hearing the fixed signal , ergo clipped. I explain the science in the first video. Soft clipping doesn't work for this method as the threshold catches more than transients leading to far more audible distortion l.
@@Bthelick Fair point. I figured if you are just letting your DAW clip, then what you're actually hearing is your DAC clipping while you work, which seemed dubious. Digital Clip (with everything OFF) on the Saturator is exactly how the DAW would clip to a fixed-point according to Ableton Support. I believe it wouldn't introduce anymore more distortion than simply letting the DAW clip since it would be only clipping peaks in the same way.
This has also been my method of finishing my music since seeing Mr Bill do this some time ago. I master other peoples music but not my own anymore. Everyone making dance music should learn this trick. Great video as always!
Another great video my man! Funnily enough just had a conversation about this with Rob over at polarity music, as noticed he always mixes his music to like -0.3 db and mixes as he goes. So now I have two sources saying the same thing. Time to change my workflow I think! Seems a whole lot quicker too. And I had actually been thi king that old school methods had come over unnecessarily into the digital realm from analogue studios. Cheers mate!
The more you learn the more you learn you nearly need it absolutely correct at source! Once you add processing, EQ etc it’s always possible to make it worse. Especially in the production phase. Really insightful video tbh as I’ve always noticed behind the scenes projects end up being super simple
For example, instead of saturating your subs single bands, if you’ve synthesised one you can add harmonics or adapt the waveform in the synth. Cleaner without unnecessary artefacts. then instead of compressing you change the ADSR
Yes, people believe digital is perfect, but every single process causes mathematical rounding errors forever changing the sound. So the less processing we need the better!
So, I made a comment before, which I have now deleted due to me doing some testing in the studio. I said that I thought daws use 32bit float internally, which would mean that you couldn't hear any clipping before exporting. I tested it out, and holy crap, it was audibly clipping. Since I always got my monitors cranked up all the way while mixing, I never noticed because I had way to much headroom, but yea... you are right in every aspect here. I will still mix and master the way I'm used to thought. meaning, I mix with a ton of headroom and just increase the volume at the very end using a limiter till I am just barely hitting the threshold. On that note, I actually stopped using any processing (except limiting) on my master a while ago and focused on getting the mix exactly the way I want it instead, leading to way better results. Why I still prefer limiting: About 5 years ago, I uploaded a song for a client and failed to set a proper ceiling. It sounded fine, even after exporting, but once uploaded, the entire song had nasty clipping artefacts. I looked into it and found out that certain streaming services de/encode your wav file into all sorts of files. Some of them lack the bit depth to go above even -1. Instead of "mastering" for each scenario individually, I now make one universal master that peaks at -1 with a loudness that feels right but usually lands at around -13lufs since I like my stuff dynamic
Did you watch the first video? I explain all this in that one. The artifacts you're hearing post mixdown are interpolation distortion. After conversion into a continuous voltage for analog playback new peaks may be created. This also happens after lossy conversion like streaming / mp3. But monitoring at zero I find gives you plenty of warning as you are already listening to the analog conversion via fixed bit output 'on the edge' The only way to truly predict this ahead is to use a true peak limiter. But those also catch far too much that affects groove for my tastes. You're hearing problems post master because you didn't prepare for those problems early enough as you left the level raising until the last minute. Even mastering at that stage doesn't guarantee any protection because the mix itself is not prepared as well as it could be. That's why your having to limit to such conservative levels, not the other way around. I've not had any problem with streaming services or conversion doing it this way for many many years, but then again I am actually very sensitive to clipping so I don't push things. Dropbox playback once did weird things on a very hot drum n bass track but that's literally the only problem I've encountered in a long time
Yes. Yes. Yes. I mix and master for a living, and this is fantastic information. The limiting factor (pun not intended) audio engineering is ear training and good sounding rooms. And modern budget full range speaker and stock plugins from any DAW are more than sufficient to make chart topping mixes from production to master. Good sound selection, arrangement, simple tools and taste make good mixes, all the hardware and shiny plugins in the world will not make any difference AT ALL!
@GingerDrums have you tried using Ollo headphones for mastering? They are game changers. No need for speakers and room treatment that cost a kidney. Changed my life.
I found part 1 perfectly clear and was impressed with the quote you shared "The best mixes don't need mastering" - Bob Katz. That was what really helped me understand the overall message you were educating us on. This was a great follow up video which helped me better understand how the exported audio file does not exceed 0db when the master output fader in the project is redlining. Cheers!
Your videos are always so humbling. It's so refreshing to hear someone argue against so many of the "standard" production practices with rational arguments and their own experience working as a professional. Congrats on the 50k and thank you for sharing your talent and experience with people looking to learn. Also , I really, really liked your single Save Me
Ive been producing for 6 yrs and your tutorials are sigle handedly reaponsible for helping me thru a progression plateau. Ur a legend truly. Would love a breakdown on lobster telephone by peggy gou and how to make more modern interpretations of 90s techno/house/electro
Hi thanks for the great vid. I think a lot of people when they start use this approach because it aounds good and start to change when they try to get a more polished sound and turn to a million and one youtube videos who post daily to make a profit with the same information that turns out you dont need. This then affects your music and work flow in a bad way then you look for more videos to fix that and the loop goes on. I wasted a good 2 or 3 years doing this and its always best to stay simple with a solid mix. Thanks again for the video upload.
completely changed how ive been looking at music creation within the past 30 minutes with both videos, thank you! also, just an aside: steve duda and deadmau5 are both producers *and* engineers - they've been working together for decades and share a really similar outlook on engineering and production because of that (though admittedly one's much clearer at explaining their thoughts!)
Starting with the sub and the kick makes so much sense. I gotta give this a go. I dont really make edm, but this still might be applicable for me. Thank you 👊
Yeah give it a go. it's not just EDM. I've done metal / punk mixes and hip hop. (As I said in the last video I started this theory when mixing a hiphop track whilst researching Dre Dre.
Revisiting one of my mixes I was struggling with and applying this method and now the whole track sounds so much better than before! I was killing my mix by chasing loudness and pushing plugins to their limits which was degrading the audio quality (transients in particular) massively.
A major part of my ongoing education is UN-learning irrelevant, and many times harmful, information that affects my mixes. I always wondered why everything would sound amazing in my mix, but sound like complete caca when bounced to a stereo file - this clarified why like nothing else EVER has! I have RUINED good mixes by over processing and believing my eyes rather than my ears! Honestly, I mixed better BEFORE I was taught to overthink it. - this (and the previous video) exposed SO many habits that I need to change ASAP. THANK YOU!! 😲
Only being able to use headphones due to my living arrangements a little while back I started producing with a master chain active from early on in a project to get some gain into my cans, I can't get a feel for EDM unless there's some headrattling going on... And since I've adopted this technique it's not only making things fit together much better from the get go but also saving me all the rejigging later on once the format of a track is finished and it's time to finalise.
Depends on the limiter and how it deals with complex signals involving high sub content mixed in with higher stuff. 3db is a lot, that is a 50% reduction in level, but the amount is not the entire issue, it's in how it handles the recovery. The most transparent limiters are intelligently clipping behind the scenes now anyway, but they still struggle sometimes with 'digital spikes'. A 10db transient spike that we can't hear getting clipped is infinitely more transparent than how a limiter would try to deal with that. Limiters are certainly cleaner for sustained overs and I use them on non-groove based genres , but they are always worse for transients in my experience. Just A/B on a good mix you should be able to hear it.
Not usually. Their job is to reduce it after all. I know you're referring to slow attack applications trying to add transients but that still reduces overall dynamic range. And the effect can be done far better with transient modulators or even just EQ. The only type of compressors that can add dynamic range are the ones with negative ratio ability (also known as an expander)
Just stumbled upon yout channel and it is pure gold. For a long time, I've felt that I am producing way too complicated. This really opens my eyes. Very cool and it gives energy. Let's gooooooooo! 🔥🔥🔥
Best short and straight to the point explanation of mastering since its beginning till now, thanks I'm finally having a good time watching an useful and honest youtube explanation
been binging your content... Tried this, no compression, volume mixing only with a lot of referencing for levels and stereo position with only the BX Glue Compressor in the Master. Pushed into the Compressor and got 6.8 Lufs! Mix sounds great... I went to the next level today!
Nice! My only question is why the glue? That will make the clipping more obvious, and rob the groove away, (pay attention especially to the kick punch) .
@@Bthelick my 'educated' guess was... very low ratio, slow attack to let all the transients thru, quickish release, use a 'colour/saturation' mode in the BX. My anchor Kick was 10db, I had to turn up the BX output to push into the channel master. I could have turned off the compression completely and just used the 'colour' of the BX.
@@MrBrownAlliance yeah try without. Including without the colour. Even good analog saturation can unnecessarily lengthen kicks & shave transients, both the Nemesis of dance music and worse for this method. Brainworks however have proven to me product after product they cannot do 'good' analog modeling I personally don't like their products. The Neve and the shadowhills was a bloody disaster! As for compression , Even low ration compression without saturation colour is still just lowering the crest factor (dynamic range) leaving less transients to pass through and transparently clip. It directly works against what I'm promoting this method.
@@MrBrownAlliance indeed yes. Well I don't really work like anyone else like I say this was just where I ended up after years of work. As I said in the first video I'm not saying it's the 'best way' and I it still requires good ear training to pull off but my advice in this thread purely pertains to if you want to try what I explain in the video then I think a no compression approach yields better results.
I have just tried it..... MY ENTYRE LIFE IS A LIE!!!!! :D Honestly, I am clipping 5 dB into the red on the Masterchannel and the result sounds better than my previous "master" that I did with expensive plugins. Less harsh, more punch, more details. Dafuq...... After adjusting the Kick level a bit I now even have the same perceived loudness as my so called master from before.... unbelievable.
Incredible powerfull vidéo ! Thx for teaching us the right way of doing Electronic music ! Ive noticed myself that the -12db before going to the mastering section was useless and struggling as fuck ! And this thing with the limiter and compresor are tighten the sound more than making the mixe better. I understand why now and will continue using my ears more than follow bad RUclips tutoriels mastering technics ! Thx for making it clear much love
You said not to worry about the transients, those split second frequencies we hear, but those play a role in how loud your music can go. When those transients hit the limit of the overall song, it limits everything else as well. There's an awesome video that explains it all, I'll post a link below. This is where the difference between Volume and Loudness come into play. You could be hindering yourself.
No, that's not the case at all. There's no limit on over clipping. I said the split second ones we CAN'T hear. the digital spikes that could send a limiter trying to deal with 10db for no reason. Everything you say there is only true when using a limiter. It's the opposite for clipping. It's the sustained signal that is the limiting factor (regarding audible distortion) when leaving the matter channel alone. Did you watch the first video? Or even watch all of this one? Trust me I understand the science, I've been dealing in digital audio science for over 20 years and professional for 15! I know the difference between volume and loudness. The aim of this method is not even to push loudness! I think you have misunderstood.
@Bthelick I watched the video, not the previous though to be honest. But regardless of the fact, not taking those transients into account with the leveling of the song overall does have an effect on the loudness. I as well have been producing for about 15 years now, and this one piece of information held me back for years, and I couldn't figure out why my mixes were so much quieter than others, these frequencies that we cannot hear do effect the overall song and it's fullness. The perceived loudness changes dramatically, maybe there is something I'm misunderstanding, but in the grand scheme of it all, even though we cannot here these peaks, they effect the perceived loudness of all mixes. Now, this may not be a problem for you specifically, but I can see how this video could lead someone right into that mistake. I have nothing against being in the red, but being in the red for the wrong reason is what I'm trying to help others avoid.
@Bthelick also, I don't mean to say you're wrong or take away anything from your video, this is all good advice. I just wanted to bring this piece of information to the fore so it can be discussed for all to see.
Thanks! It will join the release queue soon. . I think my manager wants the more summer-y sounding tracks out first so it will be after those . Keep an eye on my Spotify
@@Sachifu I don't yet. I don't think it's any less evil anyway these days. Behringer own bandcamp now. 🤦♂️. Spotify pays a good chunk of my living so....
This is vindicating in that I've always been pretty light on my mastering chain, maybe a compressor, maybe a limiter and keeping the master at 0. That said, this clarified a major point about the low end frequencies and I'm definitely going to be a bit more surgical with my auto ducking (if I ever decide to change kick drums from my trusty default)
Amazing, so i followed your advice, compressor only to sidechain elements to the kick, then i isolated kick and bass to tune out any distortion and make it sound groovy for those in the bathroom and now i can turn the limiter to the max without getting any distortion the same way i used to get before. Sounds squashed obviously because im overdoing it but it still sounds ok. Which probably means the limiter isnt working as much as before.
i gotta say i totally understand your approach, but i still often appreciate running the full mix through a multiband compressor. it often adds a character to the music that you can't reach just with mixing and sounddesign. but i'm not making purely dance-related music, more like synthpop and stuff, where it's not about getting the kick to punch as nice as possible but more like getting juicy midrange frequencies to articulate the story
Thanks so much for all you videos. You have opened many of our eyes. I will be using your techniques from now on. Can I just ask, Did you eq out the sub frequencies on the kick in this example? (time 13:58) cheers
Thanks your welcome. there's no EQ on the kick as a main sound, those 2 are bypassed. They are high pass and low pass filters for turning on in the breaks. The last plugin is to measure the bass sidechain.
What a tutorial definitely was lost in that YT do this and that world and got super confused i always had a tought something like this. Never felt quite right with that first perspective. Btw bomb track we need that for reference 😲🙏🏽 awesome video!
I also learned my own way of mastering whike looking for a lot of tutorials, and main thing i discovered was kick and bass actually take a lot of damn headroom , so i route my sub (clean sub with slight fx only in serum like gain ) and kick directly to the master channel so it doesnt affect much by procesing at my other elements and can lower it a bit down so my master limiter dont start distorting when it hits the kick bass ..it got me way louder and cleaner results
Sorry for spamming with questions but I was wondering why you export at 16 rather than just 24bit? Also I noticed my exported track was still clipping when I dragged it into a new project, but I realized in my settings the In/Out sample rate was 48000Hz and when I switched it to 41000Hz the clipping stopped, why is that? I had it at 48000Hz because of my MOTU Interfaces. When I bounced my song it rendered at 48000Hz and downsampled to 41000HZ and i'm not sure if that could cause issues..
Unfortunately the Internal Mac processing does not show you the true picture. There seems to be some internal protections that limit the output from clipping so you are not hearing the true signal. This can only be judged using the audio driver of a dedicated audio interface like your motu there. Regarding bit depth 16 is just habit from the cd days. Although this kind of music doesn't really benefit from the 24. That is only really necessary on highly dynamic material like classical / acoustic recordings. There is a tiny side benefit of 16bit to my ears in that the higher level dither helps reverb tails survive lossy format conversions ever so slightly better at consumer listening levels. But that's getting into the realms of audiophile nerdery that really doesn't matter to real world performance.
@@Bthelick got it. I also read that Ableton could be resampling the 44.1kHz file up to 48kHz in real time which could have caused the master fader in the new project to show clipping but not sure how accurate that is. And yeah I watched Dan Worrall’s video on dithering earlier today I’ll be honest, It made sense but I didn’t understand how to apply it. I’ll stick with 16bit pow-r 3 for now lol.
@SvintMvrcus if the source file is not recorded at 48k yet you are playing it back at a 48k rate then yes it will be re sampled by any daw, it's not an Ableton specific thing. This is why many papers have been written on higher sample rates showing both cons and pros. Because if the file / recording is not natively at that higher rate then it is possible that the losses induced in the conversation stages is not worth the reduction of processing artifacts. Any post process will usually result in a change in the file. Be it MP3 conversion or sample rates change (only exactly half like 88 to 44 is invisible afaik) . You would have to be working with a lot of detailed and dynamic information near Nyquist to benefit from the higher sample rate for the errors introduced in resampling twice for every file to be worth it Imo. If you are hearing vast differences of playback at 44 versus 48 I would question the dac in your audio interface first. The filter in a good dac should not be audible at either sample rate, certainly not in modern low dynamic electronic music, especially so in a genre that celebrates 'nasty' distortion flavours like the deliberately aliasing of bitcrushers! If you were making music in an audiophile genre, or if you needed to adhere to certain broadcast standards I can understand the 48k. Outside of those reasons though I wouldn't deem it necessary.
@@Bthelick that all makes sense. I think the reason I had it at 48kHz was because at 44.1 my MOTU 828 had some pretty bad latency issues until I set it there for whatever reason. That’s what I read on gearslutz and when I changed it to 48 the latency reduced greatly. Maybe that’s something I can change within its native app. Where would be a good place to read those papers?
Pretty interesting stuff! I imagine the more physical nature of using the interface as the clipping medium is what leads to that slightly more transparent sound (or is it still a completely digital clip? Just in the interface drivers as opposed to software). I was comparing directly with having Voxengo Elephant on the master just set to 0 and there really was quite a big difference. Even while referencing though i still find my self thinking 'damn that sounds bloody great' and struggle a bit to find a path to that sound, but i think mainly it really just is samples.. i need better samples for trancey stuff basically as ive been making jungle for a while! Going to try adopt this workflow a bit more though.. have far too much stuff i havent released or sent out to anyone, for one reason or another. Recently discovered your channel and you're refreshingly to the point!
As I mentioned in the first video, it should be inference's driver clipping , not the hardware. As far as I'm aware anyway. But I do certainly find it ever so slightly better sounding than using a clip plugin, even one that oversamples like free clip. In theory there should be no difference.
Man.. there was someone on reddit the other day asking about mastering and i really wanted to say all of these thing particularly that mastering was an important job in the industry and now is just being justified by a bunch of people that have invested money in gear to be a "mastering engineers". Well said and well done
Love this approach and my father (high class Psy trance producer) told me a Very simmilar approach where you mix your kick (when loudest) and bass into a good clipper and mix everything under that . If you hear distortion - fix it. What he also told me is to clip every not audible transients in every signal to get even louder. What do think about that ? Big thanks for everything you share and much love from Berlin ❤
It sounds similar but pre-clipping doesn't work. People think pre-clipping sounds will save 'work' at the master , but The physics doesn't line up. When you clip a sound at zero, as soon as it gets added to any other sound It goes back over zero. So you end up clipping sounds I already clipped. Creating exponentially more aliasing distortion. I don't like the sound of it, it's far less transparent and it doesn't help with final level that much.
The 'brighter' the genre, the more 'transparent' this is, as some of the clipping is inevitably masked by high frequencies. So this works mostly as is for the heavier side of rock like metal and punk. But acoustic genres with 'natural' top end probably won't get away with leaving the master channel empty. Clipping sounds extremely obvious on natural sounds as It is a digital artifact. The overall principles are applicable , like working at zero, getting the low end right first, and fixing any causes of distortion you hear as it happens . But getting that right on real instruments is far harder though , certainly don't take my advice on removing all compression haha. Luckily bass guitars aren't that strong in the sub region, The most audible part is usually the first harmonic not the fundamental So there is less fighting in the sub-region against the kick (usually) so there's that at least. I think All genres benefit from sidechaining, especially in the low end, not just dance, so utilize that. That will save any limiter at the end A lot of work.
This principle is so straight forward Trusting your ears with good headphones I have never thought of Ignoring the red in the digital realm Now that you’ve explained it, it seems obvious lol Gonna give this a go 🙏❤️
This is fascinating. 👍Having just about finished my first track in 20 years in FL which has taken far too long, I can see where I have gone wrong along the way and made my life somewhat more difficult. I will certainly try this in Ableton for my 2nd attempt.
Hi, very interesting video for sure. I just stumbled across it and your channel. When I get chance to spend some quality time in my man cave I'll sit down and give it a go. I'm using Ableton, sometimes Reaper. I've also noticed I need to really down down on the Reverb and learn how to use it correctly and on what. I'm definitely using it too much. Anyways, I enjoyed watching, subscribed to your channel and looking forward to watching. Best wishes.
Ah good question, saturation shaves of transients and peaks so any clipping on the master becomes a lot more obvious and this doesn't really work. It very much depends on why and how you are using saturation. I would advise to be careful what you saturate, maybe leave it off transient drums or run it in parallel. The good news is as with all distortion you are trading low frequencies for high (at equal volume), so at equal volume you should have less sub problems! the bad news is you will have a lot more low mid problems and also that no-one runs saturation at equal volume 🤣. My advice would be run at zero with an empty master still, just so you can hear when saturation is causing you problems and you can make adjustments.
@@Bthelickthanks for the detailed response! As a fan of the more distorted genres this will make my mastering tricky and require more research, I will definitely be referring back to this comment as well as these videos.
@@RoppongiTV having said that, brighter sounds in more aggressive genres Will tend to mask some clipping more so you'll have to experiment. All about listening. Just keep an ear out if you are ruining your punch and groove for the sake of loudness that's always the issue. My clipping is not pushing for extreme loudness, it's more about the transparent handling of groove.
Interesting Vid will probably save me a lot of head scratching & chasing my tail, I have a mix I thought was as good as I could get it at the present time, and to save me working with so many clips I decided to export each group as a track & mix them, and to include the full mix print for some parallel power(still yet to discover if I get any cancellation happening or other issues) & so I can simplify the project & apply some other FX to the group prints, and introduce new synth parts as I've freed up some cpu/processing, for live dub type alterations, but I've been exporting 24bit no dither perhaps I need to do it again. I also wonder if I am creating more issues doing it this way, as for example some tracks/groups duck other tracks, but I'm soloing the groups and exporting, so they may not be being ducked or sidechained as I had them, so I'm in the process of checking those issues out and perhaps re doing the sidechaining on the new track prints. (RU Dan.W? you sound the same)
It sounds like you're doing a similar thing to stem mastering, but with a parallel element. I can't comment , as you can see I keep it mega simple I would find that kind of process stage completely unnecessary. My track is already sounding like the refs after sound selection and minimal creative effects so I barely mix anything after that point beyond distortion problem solving. I usually finish a track in under 4 hours! Sounds fun to play around with but mixing is the least important part of the whole thing so anything that stops me getting lost at that stage and keeps me making more of the actual music the better! (Imo) Haha no I'm not Dan, I'm trying to do my best impression of him though, I like his cadence. Or maybe it's just also English 🤣
@@Bthelick Well you deffo doing a good job sounding just like his delivery, I'm in the UK too Just over the water from Liverpool, I will be trying to keep things much simpler in the future, it's only really my second track which has turned into 1hr30 on the timeline, which has taken a few months but doesnt have enough in it at the moment, I'm just trying to reduce the stems/clutter & start a new project with the core 1hr30 and just add some new bits to finish it off, not working in 32bit only 44.1, after watching this I will be pushing the stems/tracks a little hotter,
@@Bthelick Surely most of the stems you are working with in your project where already produced/mastered to correct/good levels and already exported with dither?
I'm not working with stems. Sorry I'm confused, Is there a misunderstanding? Nothing is already produced or mastered that sounds like it would be a disaster. I'm making parts from scratch except drums in which I'm selecting individual samples. I would never want anything already mastered that means you have no control over the sound. No stems involved in my workflow at all.
yooooo, new learnings here!!! I've somewhat tried to mix like this and I've actually noticed you can have a decent mix even with redlining but my struggle was the exporting because i only wanted it to clip to 0 db and here i found your video!
It already is clipping at zero. (See the first video if you want to know why) Only if you export at the full quality of 32bit float will it stay 'over'. What you are listening to is clipped (your audio interface is not 32 bit float) So the overs you see in three DAW do not exist in the 'real world'. If you export at any fixed bit format you will see it is already clipped at zero. Fixed bit audio can not go past zero
Im happy to have seen this video, I have been thinking about this concept for a long time. As I've been producing more and more music, the less mastering I've needed... I did wonder if there was a way to do without it while retaining loudness. I'll be trying this out and checking out your other videos too.
🔥 Thanks, man. i can't wait to try this out.. My last comment sounds a bit mean 😂😅😅 but I'm not at all. I just wanna understand mixing and mastering 🙏💚
Can’t remember who it was, but years ago I read about a well known producer who said he didn’t compress or master anything and did everything adjusting volumes and eq by ear
Once again you've proved why your video's are the best on RUclips.......it's always a " I can't click on it fast enough moment " when i see a new video drop from Bthelick, top tutorial as per usual...... 🔥🔥
Good video, with lots of good tips! For this track you're working on here, I think a bit less energy around 200hz in the kick would make sense, shifting the weight of the track a bit further down, increasing the energy below 100hz. I get what you say about headroom, but since there's not a set LUFS you have to reach, just lower the LUFS appropriately, or counter act it with adding more energy to the midrange of the mix. (Observations done subjectively in a fully treated studio on PSI A23/RME ADI 2 Pro-FS, before I get flamed)
Thanks. This is why a 2nd pair of ears is useful 🙏 Having said that I made this at home for the video in about an hour haha. I didn't plan on spending any more time on it apart from arrangement for the Spotify and tik-tok edits , it's fine to go out imo. I've not had any translation problems for a while. I mean when you've seen PAWSA - room service go off in a club , it's clear all this nitpicking is just exactly that isn't it 🤣
Thank you for always securing the foundation in your videos first and foremost, your approach is always the best lesson of the video. With that being said could you do a video on how you approach sampling? Perhaps something that samples drums and leads/vocals from the same track, would just love to know your process thanks!
No clip to zero doesn't work. It's simple physics of sound , if you clip individual tracks to zero, then combine just 2 of them you get +6 again. So the clipping doesn't prevent anything , it just causes more distortion, of the worst kind. It's far more transparent sounding to just clip the once at the end and only the drum transients. Clipping before clipping doesn't 'save' any level / headroom, it just creates clipping of the clipping!
Thanks, that makes sense! When you say clip once at the end, that's the master channel going into the red right? You dont put a clipper on it or or the drum channel?
Thank the lord of youtube algorithm for recommending this. thank you so much. By the way, is there a way to download the free afterlife sample pack? when I go on the website, it says that this store is unable to make orders. Can you help out? Thanks!
I've heard it's broken. I'm not associated with it at all sorry. I couldn't even find any contact info to nudge them guess I'll have to make to my own.
In the previous video you mentioned that you listen for distortion and then work to get it away. Guess that was too subtle of an answer. But this video drives that point. Thanks for the awesome videos!
as always very insightful ! I will have to mix my kick and bass right to where the distortion would start in order for this technique to work ? Thanks for your help :)
Basically yeah. It's more that you need to find your sounds and set their levels to the reference. Which you'll find is usually on the edge of distortion. The subs use up the most energy so they will be right at the top.
a master limiter solves all the problems then you don't even have to think about the sub bass interacting, just choose a better sounding (or real) bass and never think about it. Just make it sound great as you work out the track. What I think about is that if it was a live improvised performance, then there would be no way to duck the bass, or do fancy tricks. So if you can make it sound like it came together on a live stage, you can make it sound amazing. Just think about those specific sounds melding in real life and make it sound like that . . boom instant good!
No a master limiter does not solve all problems. It prevents clipping, which only one type of problem, and introduces it's own problems in doing so which in my opinion are worse than clipping. Because the way I do this results in invisible clipping of micro transients. I haven't heard a limiter yet which can deal with dance music levels of low end and transients and keep both. That's why I stop using them. Because the low end reaches the limit to first, the low end is the hardest bit for a limiter to deal with without audible distortion or time-related issues, and in a genre where groove is Paramount that is far less transparent than clipping transients.
Another great video! Just to note, i think the -14 lufs measurment for Spotify has more to do with their "Auto levelling" option in the app settings on some, but not all, platforms (my built in car app doesn't have it for example),in my tetsting this is usually on by default.
To quote spotify "Loudness normalization means we don't always play your track at the level it's mastered. Target the loudness level of your master at -14dB integrated LUFS and keep it below -1dB TP (True Peak) max." Note "we don't always" .....
Yes, it's what they are supposed to auto level with. But once my manager made an edit of one of my tracks and exported it himself (there's usually no problem because I don't have anything on the master bus and I use 99% freeware so he can usually just load the Ableton session in tact) but for whatever reason, this track was exported very quietly. He didn't spot it and uploaded it for release. It remains on Spotify at that low level. It was never Auto leveled. That's what I meant when I said we had evidence they aren't using the standard.
Im glad I went with an unmastered approach to music, sure my early releases sucked, hearing hihats or kicks that were way too loud, drowning everything, but I think I've finally narrowed it down
Having mixed and mastered my own tracks and released on some.of house musics biggest labels, this really interests me. Couple of quick questions for clarification if I may ? - what starting point volume wise do you use for kick and bass? Do you pull fader of kick track down to say -10 or anything as a start point? - if using saturators for example or tape emulation to add weight and warmth to a track, this is usually placed on the master bus, how would you accommodate this if master is to have no processing on? Thanks 👍🏼
Name a label I've released on it too. (Not under this name, in my ghost work) This method has never had me rejected, in fact quite the opposite as some labels have previously insisted their own contractors mastered the track, but none of their masters were preferred over my mix. No I don't reduce any faders or certainly not by that amount. again it's all about the reference. most kick samples that get close to the references are around the zero mark already, there may need a db here or there. (Remember if triggering via midi to turn off or compensate for velocity sensitivity so the sample plays back at its original volume) the point is for you to match the reference as the reference already is, at it's released level. Obviously it initially seems like it would be impossible to match a 'mastered' reference without mastering, but it turns out it's actually easier this way (imo). Saturation can be dangerous, it entirely depends on the source it's applied to. For example I hate tape saturation on drums because the head bump and hysteresis tends to lengthen kick drums beyond what I initially intended , Even though psychoacoustically it appears to give you more fatness, when working at zero, you realize what this costs you at the master stage. Again, another great benefit of this method. No enhancement is free, thus why It's just easier to get the sounds right in the first place. Saturation also deletes transients, So anything passed to the master bus makes any clipping is far more obvious. I tend to only use saturation on non-transient material like certain basses. when working at this 'already mastered' kind of level there can be gain staging concerns with some non-linear processors like saturators, especially ones with no internal calibration, as some consider -12dbfs etc to be 'normal' input. something to keep an ear out for.
@Bthelick appreciate the reply mate, and the detailed analysis. Have a project on the go. Ow that I'm going to apply this method too. I feel people get bogged down with mastering thinking they need all sorts on it, when more often than not it just takes away the clarity.
Very good! Have you seen the Baphometrix clip to zero method? Very similar to this but goes a little futher. I use this all the time and it's second nature now. Loud clear dynamic mixes, that always hit - 6lufs. But you know what, even after al that i still send for mastering. I'll tell you why. Because a good mastering engineer can most deffinately add a little polish. When i check between my master rendered file and the one back from mastering there's always a little more weight, a little more umph in the bass. Also after working on a track for so long a fresh set of ears can pick out things that sometimes i don't hear and so the feedback is very helpful. All the methods you show are used in the clip to zero method but it goes deeper and takes about 50 hours to go through the whole thing, which i did, and i'm glad because now it's burnt into my frontal cortex! Thanks for the video :-)
Yup there's always room for improvement. I still send to mastering engineers when the client requests. Usually because we've never had more than 1 day on it. Baphomatrix's clip to zero involves pre clipping at channel and bus levels which only makes things worse imo (also in terms of digital sound science doesn't actually work as adding 2 clipped signals together = +6 which just creates more clipping)
@@Bthelick interesting, i shall, have to look into what you say, as i'm not so knowledgeable in the science dept. I'll do some research on this. Thanks for the reply.
ok so i'm trying to grasp a hold of what you say about that you think it's worse. Yes the process does take place at each channel and indeed group busses too, but only as passives, same with the master bus, not doing anything but just sitting there. I also use psyscope pro, amazing tool, for visual rep to see whats clashing and to make sure side chains are doing their correct job. So when i'm looking at my wave form on the master, there's plenty of dynamics, loud, very loud, and crystal clear. Like you said, listen. And when i listen i hear no problems. Then once rendered out i have great looking wave form that sounds great. Before it goes to mastering, i use a master vcr to bring the level down by about 2-3 db for the mastering, as was shown in the clip to zero method. The mastering house hear no problems in th audio, and beleive me they tell when there's a problem. So could you tell me how you think this is not a great method to loud clear dynamic mixes. I'm genuine by the way. If your method does what it says on the tin then i ought to try it our and see. IN fact i have a new loop going that i have just used the CTZ method on. I culd disable all that and try yours. Then compare. I could even send to you, with out letting you know which is which and see you can spot any differences? Thanks
It's simply the fact that he uses clipping on the channels and buses before reaching master. That's not how digital audio works, it doesn't 'save' any headroom in the long run and only creates more problems at the master buss stage and more aliased clipping down stream. If it's working for you then great don't worry, I'm only saying the science doesn't add up because his fundamental theory is flawed. But if you're confident in your ear training and you like the sound then go for it. I'm not about to enter a me vs x technical method battle with people sending me tracks haha. I've been releasing music for 10 years like this professionally to hundreds of millions of streams across accounts and it's literally paying the bills , I'm not seeking change because there's no problem right now. This video is not for comparing methods, it's to help those that are struggling . (And to clear up some misinformation) If you still have problems , i.e you don't trust your ear training yet and your releases aren't getting any plays then obviously start seeking changes sure you can definitely try my method it's a LOT less steps but only if there's a problem. Be careful off this academic back and forth of technical matters 'on paper', I see it everyday on gear space / Reddit and it's 99% hobbyists that have got obsessed with numbers instead of music , and usually don't actually release any music for a living.
@@Bthelick Hey thanks for the reply. NO i don't get caught up back and forth stuff, never have. My music has had over 50 mil streams, bbc music introduing plays and signed to labels. Still not making bugger all from it though lol. So something is working. Wow im very suprised you say this is a flawed method. Until i got this ctz method under my belt i just couldn't get my mixes loud or dynamic enough at the same time. I do enjoy the technical side of things a lot, but my knowledge in the actual science is something i'm still learning. Well i am going to try your way and see how it goes. As far as the CTZ setting up, i have a template so all plugins clippers are all loaded from the offset from a blank project, so it's easy to get going and because i use it all thie time, i can do it at speed. So it's not slow to get going. Right well i'm going to go over your video again, learn your way and give it a go and see how i get on. :-)
Instead of the toilet test, I made an FL patcher preset for the "Lost Lands on a phone video" test. I even compose in it sometimes, so playback doesn't desensitise me to my music by making me think it's worse than it really is. When I turn it off, it's like hearing it for the first time, the way someone would actually experience a first listen.
This is brilliant! Love the simplicity of it. Just to make sure I understand - you essentially begin with your kick peaking at 0, and then everything else is balanced to it, right? In the case of EQing a kick of changing the envelope (which might therefore affect the final volume a little) - would you compensate with additional gain to bring it back up to 0? Thanks again!!!
Well you're still working to the reference, that's always your go to. If that means the kick has to be at peaking zero so be it. You'll usually find it's around there. , but remember as I said in the first video the peak of a signal and that number mean nothing so don't go using it as a benchmark. 2 kicks peaking at zero on a digital peak meter means one can still sound double the volume of the other so never use the numbers, use your ears and reference.
Great video! But, what about a situation where, let's say, the kick pattern changes. Like at the end of a loop there are multiple kicks, like a kick fill/roll. Then that will create a huge spike in loudness and introduce distortion. Now wouldn't this be a great place to group the bass and the kick tracks and put a limiter on that group instead of volume automation or something else. Idea would be that the limiter's treshold only picks up the busy kick part. Or what is your approach? Even with a reference track this problem would still occur I think.
Yes of course it will cause it will cause problems , but it's a problem regardless, for a limiter too, or any other process. The laws of physics dictates you can't have that many long waveforms overlapping. So you still have to make steps to arrange that section. Be it removing the sub at that point or automating levels. I certainly have reached for a limiter in occasional circumstances where the groove damage doesn't matter, and I just automate them on for that section.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
clarification: I did mention a limiter at the very end , that was a section that got cut from the video just showing how all the hard work was already done and now a limiter only makes it sound slightly worse. So just to be clear there is no limiter used.
There is no clipper used either. As explained in the first video any export to a file format that is not 32bit floating point will be clipped.
(We are already hearing the clipped signal the 'overs' shown in the DAW are estimates and not really happening, see first video)
This actually works🤘🏻😮🤘🏻I'm yet to render and put it to some real test. Appreciate the time and you've taken to clarify🙏
Do you use any clippers on busses or individual tracks?
@@Karl_Hogarth no, that makes any subsequent clipping much worse
Hi! Your videos are really informative and straightforward!
I have a question.. What about the LUFS at the end. As we know, in today's music industry, "Louder" has won every time. How to reach at least -8 LUFS with this technique? Because even when Ableton shows 6db over 0 in master section, it is still not loud enough. Does it have to do with mixing the right LUFS with Kick+Bass in the very beginning? Thank you!
@hulioonyoumusic the video is about not looking at numbers, I said in the video "notice how I never had to check my lufs" .
6 over zero tells you nothing because those are peak numbers.
You might have one track that is 1 over zero and it's -6 lufs and another tracks that's 10 over zero and -9 lufs, the two are not related.
We can not make better music looking at numbers.
As I said in the video I never have to check the lufs of my track because I've been referencing using my ears.
And also as I say in the video lufs doesn't mean much because it can be fooled, two tracks which sound like the same loudness could have different lufs levels because of all kinds of factors, like something as simple as the bass rhythm. Because Longer bass notes can give you higher lufs, so again it's just another number that doesn't equate to music.
Loudness does not "win" . Good tracks win. One of the biggest tracks last year was pawsa , sounds terrible by engineering standards but goes off with a crowd because it was so different.
People are not signing tracks or putting them in sets because of lufs measurements. Please let go of chasing numbers.
You probably can't get to -8 because you're chasing loudness instead of punch and groove., and you're clearly not referencing enough, or you wouldn't have to check the numbers.
I love the 7 (well 8) step summary of how production is "taught". When I attempt the "mastering" step I usually make everything sound worse, and fall into the bah give up stage. Great video, as always, and thanks for the demonstration at the end rather than just speaking the ideas.
Thanks, @Bthelick! You’re awesome! Adjusting my master to 0dB resolved nearly 90% of my issues. I had spent almost 4 years focusing solely on mastering because everywhere you look, they teach that you need -12dB for mastering, which I now see was misleading. Your tip has transformed my workflow and approach. Now, my main challenge is improving my sound design from scratch using VST plugins like Serum, Diva, and Vital.
@@nuke_code i dont understand whats the difference
that's why I was making better mixes before I learned about LUFS, "set your kick to -6db", "the new best mastering limiter" etc
This
I also got lost in 5-6 LUFS madness... :/
I feel like you pulled my pants down and revealed all my mixing secrets 😂
Seriously, kudos to ur honesty and thank you for demystifying making dance music again. The sheer amount of youtubers telling you what one needs to buy to have this and that sound can be really overwhelming sometimes. It's nice to finally see someone with obvious industry experience telling everyone to chill and get the basics right. Real value here, gonna pass that message on, thank you for that ❤
This couldn´t have come at a better time, it's just what I needed! Thank you!
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Ben is the best teacher ever! Ignore that red meter, focus on your ears and reference, reference, reference! 🙌🙌🙌🙌
wheres the vid that shows how to do the referencing thing ?
@@memecoinmafia2732search for Bthelick “The 3 R's: 3 Simple Rules For Better Tracks” 🤟
@memecoinmafia2732 Just pull a track into your ableton, set it on out, and then throw a span on the audio track with the sing you chose to use as a reference.
Cap
@@sebrosamusic Ive been a professional engineer for 30+ years. Ive worked for D&D in NYC, Patchwerk in ATL, and even assisted in instructional courses at Full Sail. This in unequivocally the wrong way to go about a master. While yes, using a reference track is helpful, your ear alone cant detect certain aspects that analyzers can. The KEY to a proper mix to create sound pockets so your eq’s dont wash each other out. There is no shortcut or technique that will magically do it for you. It takes YEARS of practice and an understanding of your equipment’s capabilities and/or limitations. Once you have a solid mix, then take it to the mastering process, which essentially normalizes the format for multiple platforms. Without mastering, your music may sound perfect on Spotify and terrible on Apple. Just keep in mind that mastering isnt designed to fix your mix, it’s designed to enhance it.
The first person ive seen to stop using a limter and have ableton clip it off was that dubstep producer MR Bill. He was ableton certified and had knowledge of the software like no one else. I think he might of been the first person to do this. I did this method on my latest track. Master clipping at about 4-5 db over 0 and the results were amazing. 0 compression or limiting in the track makes everything sound better and more organic to the ears. No more squashing dynamics for loudness. THANK YOU BTHELICK!!! You have transformed my production skills with these vids over the past year and a half.
If i do this method and then also want to send to a mastering engineer for finishing touches, and i want to ensure the mastering engineer keeps the loudness of the kick and bass relatively samey to what i’ve done in the mix, what if i put a utility with -6dB, then a clipper with a ceiling at -6dB right after.
My thinking is that then we would still get the clipping happening at the same point it would if we just rendered the mix at 0db master like you’ve done, but now with 6dB of headroom for the mastering engineer to work with
No just let them do their thing or it's pointless. Let them deal with transients or what's the point of using a professional?
Just send them your references and also your mixdown then they will at least match that , hopefully with some improvements.
If I'm asked to send to a mastering engineer I send them the -10 , my zero mix and the main references and their purposes (track x was the low end reference etc)
@@Bthelick love this so much, thanks brotha!! 🤍🫶
This process reminds me of a time about 7 years, a friend asked me why I like using LANDR. I told them when I upload a track, and set it to the highest loudness option, the result shows me what needs fixing in my track ie I can hear it distorting. I’ve realised now I could have been doing this in my own DAW all along! Thanks Bthelick as always, your content is incredibly helpful!
Woah. One of the very, very, very few channels that teach how things actually are. Even paid courses end up making things just much harder and complicated. I love your no BS approach and wealth of knowledge!
I was making music without mastering for years, so when I finally bought Ozone, it was like taking the super soldier serum. I still think Ozone is worth it, even if just for analysing. It's great being able to see the different bands stereo width. The multiband compression lets you get the treble and bass really bright and firm, and orchestral instruments really loud without ruining them with distortion. Orchestra & loudness are both really important for deathstep.
It might sound better to you, but I promise you that's probably because of the loudness makeup. Multiband compression is extremely damaging, especially if you're not used to using it. Your track may sound louder and you think the compression bands help with balance but in reality, you're having to squash bad sound decisions! and if you listen past the level changes or compensate it currently you'll notice the groove has been flattened.
It is a very accomplished tool, but you cannot fix things.
Tracks that do get mastered should be a 5% difference not night and day. It's not possible to fix A mix at the mastering stage at all.
@@Bthelick I got Ozone because I heard what a difference (with it's multiband compression) it made to Virtual Riot's "Studio Time S2 EP3 Track From Scratch." He's a headliner at festivals and even his Ozone added a lot. I can't remember what part of the video, but at some point, he adds Ozone to the master early in the writing process to make it loud on playback, and then masters it in more detail at the end.
Teninite is one of my favourite music artists of all time and in a stream with Dylan Tallchief he says he starts every song with a master chain that he knows works, and composes straight into it.
My tracks are actually quieter with Ozone. When I wasn't using it, I was regularly hitting -2LUFS with just a softclipper on the master, but now I hit -7 to -4, but quiet sounds sound clearer under louder sounds, which is more like my references like Evilwave - Wakanda. The quiet strings in the background of the drop sound very clear under the leads.
@spynasaurus5194 Of course it will make a big difference, but that's the problem. It shouldn't make such a difference if the original sound was in shape , Which is a massive red flag in my opinion . Yes that artist has made it work , probably after many years of bashing their head against a wall (A literal audio wall ) I'm not saying it can't be done. It's just a very unnecessary process. if it's working for you in real world performance i can't argue, but that's the complete opposite of what I do. I ain't a headliner but I have several hundred million streams across myself and the clients I ghost producer for this is the only reason I recommend anything.
I used to work that way and I hate fighting against a master processor because it stops you being able to judge sounds at the most important stage of the music making process , sound selection. It's always going to be an unnecessary amount of guesswork If you have to pick a sound and then find out how it's changed by the permanent master processor you have living there.
My whole philosophy revolves around having full control over the sound way before that stage.
If the sound is right it shouldn't have to be altered so drastically. It's just so much extra work.
Then again, you're talking to a guy that releases 3 to 5 tracks a week!
Absolutely top content in both technicality and friendly communication. Subbed !
If you want to be a good dance producer, you should watch this video and then watch it again and again until you can recite every word from memory. You could also print it out and put it somewhere that will be seen by you often. I normally put printed stuff like this on the back of the bathroom door so I have something to read while on the throne. I learnt the circle of fifths this way. See you in the morning sir. Thank you.
Maybe it will make some a better dance engineer, this video doesn't have much to do with production. I think another essential lesson is knowing that difference (if you want to do this for a living that is).
Many of the best producers in the world don't touch the mixing or mastering side of things.
@Bthelick with so many artists starting to 'produce' their own work over the last few years, one very common misconception amongst the ones struggling i found is that producers and engineers are one in the same
Absolutely. I made a video rant on that very subject called "you are not a producer" haha.
A lot of people don't actually know what a producer does.
@Bthelick lol I've gotten to wear it just tell them produce your work if you want but my goodness let an engineer give it love it deserves lol
I will definitely go scope that video tho lol will be nice hear someone else rant about it 🤣🫂
Great video and information. I work a lot with live music and share the same approach, except sidechain compression (which hardly ever sound good with live instruments). I avoid any processing on the masterbus until the very end of the mixing process. The limiter I use only in true peak mode to get rid of short spikes and pump up the level a bit. All the loudness and energy in the mix comes from the processing on individual channels and buses. Most of the time live sounds need quite a lot of healthy compression to sound good in a dence mix. This is the only way to make live music sound loud and proud, if needed. I don't believe that heavy compression destroys the modern music, as many people say. The bad and uneducated decisions about sound processing in general do make music sound bad and uninteresting.
Yes it's always an ear training issue. I don't think it sounds 'bad' when done correctly but it's just rarely needed. And as there's so much misinformation out there plus much of my audience doesn't have the ear training I just tend to advise against it in general.
"No compression" is just the shocking news some need to wake up and start actively listening for dynamics.
Great video! It just shows you don't need a massive Master Chain if your sound selection & mix are making all of the moves. I recommend adding a Saturator set to 'Digital Clip' on your Master (with High Quality mode, Color, and Soft Clip turned off). When enabled you can get a real-time idea of how your track will sound clipped at 24-bit or 16-bit before even exporting it. Cheers mate!
You're already hearing your sound clipped though! Those 'overs' you see in the master channel are estimations, they didn't exist in the real world sound output that leaves the DAW. You are hearing the converted audio from your audio interface which by nature can't be a floating point signal, so you're hearing the fixed signal , ergo clipped. I explain the science in the first video.
Soft clipping doesn't work for this method as the threshold catches more than transients leading to far more audible distortion l.
@@Bthelick Fair point. I figured if you are just letting your DAW clip, then what you're actually hearing is your DAC clipping while you work, which seemed dubious. Digital Clip (with everything OFF) on the Saturator is exactly how the DAW would clip to a fixed-point according to Ableton Support. I believe it wouldn't introduce anymore more distortion than simply letting the DAW clip since it would be only clipping peaks in the same way.
This has also been my method of finishing my music since seeing Mr Bill do this some time ago. I master other peoples music but not my own anymore. Everyone making dance music should learn this trick. Great video as always!
Another great video my man! Funnily enough just had a conversation about this with Rob over at polarity music, as noticed he always mixes his music to like -0.3 db and mixes as he goes. So now I have two sources saying the same thing. Time to change my workflow I think! Seems a whole lot quicker too. And I had actually been thi king that old school methods had come over unnecessarily into the digital realm from analogue studios. Cheers mate!
The more you learn the more you learn you nearly need it absolutely correct at source! Once you add processing, EQ etc it’s always possible to make it worse. Especially in the production phase. Really insightful video tbh as I’ve always noticed behind the scenes projects end up being super simple
For example, instead of saturating your subs single bands, if you’ve synthesised one you can add harmonics or adapt the waveform in the synth. Cleaner without unnecessary artefacts. then instead of compressing you change the ADSR
Yes, people believe digital is perfect, but every single process causes mathematical rounding errors forever changing the sound.
So the less processing we need the better!
You were pretty clear in your last video. I understood what you meant.
So, I made a comment before, which I have now deleted due to me doing some testing in the studio.
I said that I thought daws use 32bit float internally, which would mean that you couldn't hear any clipping before exporting.
I tested it out, and holy crap, it was audibly clipping. Since I always got my monitors cranked up all the way while mixing, I never noticed because I had way to much headroom, but yea... you are right in every aspect here.
I will still mix and master the way I'm used to thought. meaning, I mix with a ton of headroom and just increase the volume at the very end using a limiter till I am just barely hitting the threshold.
On that note, I actually stopped using any processing (except limiting) on my master a while ago and focused on getting the mix exactly the way I want it instead, leading to way better results.
Why I still prefer limiting:
About 5 years ago, I uploaded a song for a client and failed to set a proper ceiling. It sounded fine, even after exporting, but once uploaded, the entire song had nasty clipping artefacts. I looked into it and found out that certain streaming services de/encode your wav file into all sorts of files. Some of them lack the bit depth to go above even -1.
Instead of "mastering" for each scenario individually, I now make one universal master that peaks at -1 with a loudness that feels right but usually lands at around -13lufs since I like my stuff dynamic
Did you watch the first video? I explain all this in that one.
The artifacts you're hearing post mixdown are interpolation distortion.
After conversion into a continuous voltage for analog playback new peaks may be created.
This also happens after lossy conversion like streaming / mp3.
But monitoring at zero I find gives you plenty of warning as you are already listening to the analog conversion via fixed bit output 'on the edge'
The only way to truly predict this ahead is to use a true peak limiter. But those also catch far too much that affects groove for my tastes.
You're hearing problems post master because you didn't prepare for those problems early enough as you left the level raising until the last minute. Even mastering at that stage doesn't guarantee any protection because the mix itself is not prepared as well as it could be. That's why your having to limit to such conservative levels, not the other way around.
I've not had any problem with streaming services or conversion doing it this way for many many years, but then again I am actually very sensitive to clipping so I don't push things.
Dropbox playback once did weird things on a very hot drum n bass track but that's literally the only problem I've encountered in a long time
Yes. Yes. Yes. I mix and master for a living, and this is fantastic information. The limiting factor (pun not intended) audio engineering is ear training and good sounding rooms. And modern budget full range speaker and stock plugins from any DAW are more than sufficient to make chart topping mixes from production to master. Good sound selection, arrangement, simple tools and taste make good mixes, all the hardware and shiny plugins in the world will not make any difference AT ALL!
@GingerDrums have you tried using Ollo headphones for mastering? They are game changers. No need for speakers and room treatment that cost a kidney.
Changed my life.
Exactly "mixing is a listening skill not an operational skill" - Robert Scovill
@@Inzzide-R I use Audeze LDC-X headphones and Kii-Three speakers. I dont use any of my hardware since a while :)
@@Bthelick 25 likes on this comment of mine, but hundreds of millions of dollars a year spent chasing gear that makes no difference XD
@@GingerDrums stopped spending on monitoring hardware after I bought my VSX. Never looked back
I found part 1 perfectly clear and was impressed with the quote you shared "The best mixes don't need mastering" - Bob Katz. That was what really helped me understand the overall message you were educating us on. This was a great follow up video which helped me better understand how the exported audio file does not exceed 0db when the master output fader in the project is redlining. Cheers!
Your videos are always so humbling. It's so refreshing to hear someone argue against so many of the "standard" production practices with rational arguments and their own experience working as a professional. Congrats on the 50k and thank you for sharing your talent and experience with people looking to learn.
Also , I really, really liked your single Save Me
Thankyou!
Ive been producing for 6 yrs and your tutorials are sigle handedly reaponsible for helping me thru a progression plateau. Ur a legend truly.
Would love a breakdown on lobster telephone by peggy gou and how to make more modern interpretations of 90s techno/house/electro
Hi thanks for the great vid. I think a lot of people when they start use this approach because it aounds good and start to change when they try to get a more polished sound and turn to a million and one youtube videos who post daily to make a profit with the same information that turns out you dont need. This then affects your music and work flow in a bad way then you look for more videos to fix that and the loop goes on. I wasted a good 2 or 3 years doing this and its always best to stay simple with a solid mix. Thanks again for the video upload.
completely changed how ive been looking at music creation within the past 30 minutes with both videos, thank you!
also, just an aside: steve duda and deadmau5 are both producers *and* engineers - they've been working together for decades and share a really similar outlook on engineering and production because of that (though admittedly one's much clearer at explaining their thoughts!)
Starting with the sub and the kick makes so much sense. I gotta give this a go. I dont really make edm, but this still might be applicable for me. Thank you 👊
Yeah give it a go. it's not just EDM. I've done metal / punk mixes and hip hop. (As I said in the last video I started this theory when mixing a hiphop track whilst researching Dre Dre.
This process is not strange at all. DnB producers have been doing this for ages. Part1 was super clear. Love your videos
Revisiting one of my mixes I was struggling with and applying this method and now the whole track sounds so much better than before! I was killing my mix by chasing loudness and pushing plugins to their limits which was degrading the audio quality (transients in particular) massively.
Great to hear pm. Glad it's helping 👊 .
Thanks for attending the live stream yesterday too 🙏
A major part of my ongoing education is UN-learning irrelevant, and many times harmful, information that affects my mixes. I always wondered why everything would sound amazing in my mix, but sound like complete caca when bounced to a stereo file - this clarified why like nothing else EVER has! I have RUINED good mixes by over processing and believing my eyes rather than my ears! Honestly, I mixed better BEFORE I was taught to overthink it. - this (and the previous video) exposed SO many habits that I need to change ASAP. THANK YOU!! 😲
Same! I've literally just moded my template>Master chain to reflect these last two videos, thanks Ben
Only being able to use headphones due to my living arrangements a little while back I started producing with a master chain active from early on in a project to get some gain into my cans,
I can't get a feel for EDM unless there's some headrattling going on...
And since I've adopted this technique it's not only making things fit together much better from the get go but also saving me all the rejigging later on once the format of a track is finished and it's time to finalise.
Just use a limiter with no more than 3db gain reduction, anything else will potentially alter your mix too much
Depends on the limiter and how it deals with complex signals involving high sub content mixed in with higher stuff.
3db is a lot, that is a 50% reduction in level, but the amount is not the entire issue, it's in how it handles the recovery. The most transparent limiters are intelligently clipping behind the scenes now anyway, but they still struggle sometimes with 'digital spikes'. A 10db transient spike that we can't hear getting clipped is infinitely more transparent than how a limiter would try to deal with that.
Limiters are certainly cleaner for sustained overs and I use them on non-groove based genres , but they are always worse for transients in my experience.
Just A/B on a good mix you should be able to hear it.
21:03 Wouldn't compressors be adding dynamic range if and when used correctly? Or is that a misconception?
Not usually. Their job is to reduce it after all. I know you're referring to slow attack applications trying to add transients but that still reduces overall dynamic range. And the effect can be done far better with transient modulators or even just EQ.
The only type of compressors that can add dynamic range are the ones with negative ratio ability (also known as an expander)
@@Bthelick got it thanks for the reply and thanks for the great content
Just stumbled upon yout channel and it is pure gold. For a long time, I've felt that I am producing way too complicated. This really opens my eyes. Very cool and it gives energy. Let's gooooooooo! 🔥🔥🔥
This is the advice I needed to hear at 9:30 Indeed if the master is at -12 or has a limiter or something you wont hear the problems and can't mix.
Best short and straight to the point explanation of mastering since its beginning till now, thanks I'm finally having a good time watching an useful and honest youtube explanation
been binging your content... Tried this, no compression, volume mixing only with a lot of referencing for levels and stereo position with only the BX Glue Compressor in the Master. Pushed into the Compressor and got 6.8 Lufs! Mix sounds great... I went to the next level today!
Nice! My only question is why the glue? That will make the clipping more obvious, and rob the groove away, (pay attention especially to the kick punch) .
@@Bthelick my 'educated' guess was... very low ratio, slow attack to let all the transients thru, quickish release, use a 'colour/saturation' mode in the BX. My anchor Kick was 10db, I had to turn up the BX output to push into the channel master. I could have turned off the compression completely and just used the 'colour' of the BX.
@@MrBrownAlliance yeah try without. Including without the colour. Even good analog saturation can unnecessarily lengthen kicks & shave transients, both the Nemesis of dance music and worse for this method. Brainworks however have proven to me product after product they cannot do 'good' analog modeling I personally don't like their products. The Neve and the shadowhills was a bloody disaster!
As for compression , Even low ration compression without saturation colour is still just lowering the crest factor (dynamic range) leaving less transients to pass through and transparently clip. It directly works against what I'm promoting this method.
@@Bthelick this thread perfectly illustrates the minefield of different opinions etc. I am going to try without the BX Glue...
@@MrBrownAlliance indeed yes. Well I don't really work like anyone else like I say this was just where I ended up after years of work.
As I said in the first video I'm not saying it's the 'best way' and I it still requires good ear training to pull off but my advice in this thread purely pertains to if you want to try what I explain in the video then I think a no compression approach yields better results.
I have just tried it..... MY ENTYRE LIFE IS A LIE!!!!! :D Honestly, I am clipping 5 dB into the red on the Masterchannel and the result sounds better than my previous "master" that I did with expensive plugins. Less harsh, more punch, more details. Dafuq...... After adjusting the Kick level a bit I now even have the same perceived loudness as my so called master from before.... unbelievable.
So excited to try this out!!!
Incredible powerfull vidéo ! Thx for teaching us the right way of doing Electronic music ! Ive noticed myself that the -12db before going to the mastering section was useless and struggling as fuck ! And this thing with the limiter and compresor are tighten the sound more than making the mixe better. I understand why now and will continue using my ears more than follow bad RUclips tutoriels mastering technics ! Thx for making it clear much love
You said not to worry about the transients, those split second frequencies we hear, but those play a role in how loud your music can go. When those transients hit the limit of the overall song, it limits everything else as well. There's an awesome video that explains it all, I'll post a link below. This is where the difference between Volume and Loudness come into play. You could be hindering yourself.
No, that's not the case at all. There's no limit on over clipping.
I said the split second ones we CAN'T hear.
the digital spikes that could send a limiter trying to deal with 10db for no reason.
Everything you say there is only true when using a limiter.
It's the opposite for clipping. It's the sustained signal that is the limiting factor (regarding audible distortion) when leaving the matter channel alone.
Did you watch the first video? Or even watch all of this one?
Trust me I understand the science, I've been dealing in digital audio science for over 20 years and professional for 15!
I know the difference between volume and loudness. The aim of this method is not even to push loudness! I think you have misunderstood.
@Bthelick I watched the video, not the previous though to be honest. But regardless of the fact, not taking those transients into account with the leveling of the song overall does have an effect on the loudness. I as well have been producing for about 15 years now, and this one piece of information held me back for years, and I couldn't figure out why my mixes were so much quieter than others, these frequencies that we cannot hear do effect the overall song and it's fullness. The perceived loudness changes dramatically, maybe there is something I'm misunderstanding, but in the grand scheme of it all, even though we cannot here these peaks, they effect the perceived loudness of all mixes. Now, this may not be a problem for you specifically, but I can see how this video could lead someone right into that mistake. I have nothing against being in the red, but being in the red for the wrong reason is what I'm trying to help others avoid.
@Bthelick also, I don't mean to say you're wrong or take away anything from your video, this is all good advice. I just wanted to bring this piece of information to the fore so it can be discussed for all to see.
Hey, post that link. Interested to see what you mean
@@unisonproductions123 the link is posted in this comment thread. I hope it helps!
I love how you're demonstrating concepts as you explain them, it's brilliant
Thanks! It will join the release queue soon. .
I think my manager wants the more summer-y sounding tracks out first so it will be after those .
Keep an eye on my Spotify
@@Bthelick I'm boycotting Spotify, got a bandcamp?
@@Sachifu I don't yet. I don't think it's any less evil anyway these days. Behringer own bandcamp now. 🤦♂️.
Spotify pays a good chunk of my living so....
This is vindicating in that I've always been pretty light on my mastering chain, maybe a compressor, maybe a limiter and keeping the master at 0. That said, this clarified a major point about the low end frequencies and I'm definitely going to be a bit more surgical with my auto ducking (if I ever decide to change kick drums from my trusty default)
Amazing, so i followed your advice, compressor only to sidechain elements to the kick, then i isolated kick and bass to tune out any distortion and make it sound groovy for those in the bathroom and now i can turn the limiter to the max without getting any distortion the same way i used to get before. Sounds squashed obviously because im overdoing it but it still sounds ok. Which probably means the limiter isnt working as much as before.
Great to hear , Try without the limiter, see if you prefer it.
i gotta say i totally understand your approach, but i still often appreciate running the full mix through a multiband compressor. it often adds a character to the music that you can't reach just with mixing and sounddesign. but i'm not making purely dance-related music, more like synthpop and stuff, where it's not about getting the kick to punch as nice as possible but more like getting juicy midrange frequencies to articulate the story
Thanks so much for all you videos. You have opened many of our eyes. I will be using your techniques from now on. Can I just ask, Did you eq out the sub frequencies on the kick in this example? (time 13:58) cheers
Thanks your welcome.
there's no EQ on the kick as a main sound, those 2 are bypassed. They are high pass and low pass filters for turning on in the breaks.
The last plugin is to measure the bass sidechain.
@@Bthelick thanks for the quick response and clarification. All the best
No problem, Oh and I just noticed you donated thank you so much 🙏
Bless you
What a tutorial definitely was lost in that YT do this and that world and got super confused i always had a tought something like this. Never felt quite right with that first perspective. Btw bomb track we need that for reference 😲🙏🏽 awesome video!
I also learned my own way of mastering whike looking for a lot of tutorials, and main thing i discovered was kick and bass actually take a lot of damn headroom , so i route my sub (clean sub with slight fx only in serum like gain ) and kick directly to the master channel so it doesnt affect much by procesing at my other elements and can lower it a bit down so my master limiter dont start distorting when it hits the kick bass ..it got me way louder and cleaner results
Been really enjoying the videos. I definitely learn best by things being broken down molecularly so I appreciate the clarity on your approach!
Sorry for spamming with questions but I was wondering why you export at 16 rather than just 24bit? Also I noticed my exported track was still clipping when I dragged it into a new project, but I realized in my settings the In/Out sample rate was 48000Hz and when I switched it to 41000Hz the clipping stopped, why is that? I had it at 48000Hz because of my MOTU Interfaces. When I bounced my song it rendered at 48000Hz and downsampled to 41000HZ and i'm not sure if that could cause issues..
I should probably add that I'm not using the MOTU interace right now just my Macbook Pro, no sure if that makes a difference in the process.
Unfortunately the Internal Mac processing does not show you the true picture. There seems to be some internal protections that limit the output from clipping so you are not hearing the true signal. This can only be judged using the audio driver of a dedicated audio interface like your motu there.
Regarding bit depth 16 is just habit from the cd days. Although this kind of music doesn't really benefit from the 24. That is only really necessary on highly dynamic material like classical / acoustic recordings.
There is a tiny side benefit of 16bit to my ears in that the higher level dither helps reverb tails survive lossy format conversions ever so slightly better at consumer listening levels. But that's getting into the realms of audiophile nerdery that really doesn't matter to real world performance.
@@Bthelick got it. I also read that Ableton could be resampling the 44.1kHz file up to 48kHz in real time which could have caused the master fader in the new project to show clipping but not sure how accurate that is.
And yeah I watched Dan Worrall’s video on dithering earlier today I’ll be honest, It made sense but I didn’t understand how to apply it. I’ll stick with 16bit pow-r 3 for now lol.
@SvintMvrcus if the source file is not recorded at 48k yet you are playing it back at a 48k rate then yes it will be re sampled by any daw, it's not an Ableton specific thing.
This is why many papers have been written on higher sample rates showing both cons and pros. Because if the file / recording is not natively at that higher rate then it is possible that the losses induced in the conversation stages is not worth the reduction of processing artifacts.
Any post process will usually result in a change in the file. Be it MP3 conversion or sample rates change (only exactly half like 88 to 44 is invisible afaik) .
You would have to be working with a lot of detailed and dynamic information near Nyquist to benefit from the higher sample rate for the errors introduced in resampling twice for every file to be worth it Imo.
If you are hearing vast differences of playback at 44 versus 48 I would question the dac in your audio interface first.
The filter in a good dac should not be audible at either sample rate, certainly not in modern low dynamic electronic music, especially so in a genre that celebrates 'nasty' distortion flavours like the deliberately aliasing of bitcrushers!
If you were making music in an audiophile genre, or if you needed to adhere to certain broadcast standards I can understand the 48k. Outside of those reasons though I wouldn't deem it necessary.
@@Bthelick that all makes sense. I think the reason I had it at 48kHz was because at 44.1 my MOTU 828 had some pretty bad latency issues until I set it there for whatever reason. That’s what I read on gearslutz and when I changed it to 48 the latency reduced greatly. Maybe that’s something I can change within its native app. Where would be a good place to read those papers?
2:30 - 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Great humour, Bthelick!
Pretty interesting stuff! I imagine the more physical nature of using the interface as the clipping medium is what leads to that slightly more transparent sound (or is it still a completely digital clip? Just in the interface drivers as opposed to software). I was comparing directly with having Voxengo Elephant on the master just set to 0 and there really was quite a big difference. Even while referencing though i still find my self thinking 'damn that sounds bloody great' and struggle a bit to find a path to that sound, but i think mainly it really just is samples.. i need better samples for trancey stuff basically as ive been making jungle for a while!
Going to try adopt this workflow a bit more though.. have far too much stuff i havent released or sent out to anyone, for one reason or another. Recently discovered your channel and you're refreshingly to the point!
As I mentioned in the first video, it should be inference's driver clipping , not the hardware. As far as I'm aware anyway.
But I do certainly find it ever so slightly better sounding than using a clip plugin, even one that oversamples like free clip. In theory there should be no difference.
He always delivers. Interesting angle, will be giving this a try.
Man.. there was someone on reddit the other day asking about mastering and i really wanted to say all of these thing particularly that mastering was an important job in the industry and now is just being justified by a bunch of people that have invested money in gear to be a "mastering engineers". Well said and well done
Love this approach and my father (high class Psy trance producer) told me a Very simmilar approach where you mix your kick (when loudest) and bass into a good clipper and mix everything under that . If you hear distortion - fix it.
What he also told me is to clip every not audible transients in every signal to get even louder.
What do think about that ?
Big thanks for everything you share and much love from Berlin ❤
It sounds similar but pre-clipping doesn't work.
People think pre-clipping sounds will save 'work' at the master , but The physics doesn't line up.
When you clip a sound at zero, as soon as it gets added to any other sound It goes back over zero. So you end up clipping sounds I already clipped. Creating exponentially more aliasing distortion.
I don't like the sound of it, it's far less transparent and it doesn't help with final level that much.
I use this approach and only have span on my master.
This is gold. Any advices on the similar content examples in indie folk/rock? Thanks again 🙏
The 'brighter' the genre, the more 'transparent' this is, as some of the clipping is inevitably masked by high frequencies.
So this works mostly as is for the heavier side of rock like metal and punk.
But acoustic genres with 'natural' top end probably won't get away with leaving the master channel empty. Clipping sounds extremely obvious on natural sounds as It is a digital artifact.
The overall principles are applicable , like working at zero, getting the low end right first, and fixing any causes of distortion you hear as it happens . But getting that right on real instruments is far harder though , certainly don't take my advice on removing all compression haha.
Luckily bass guitars aren't that strong in the sub region, The most audible part is usually the first harmonic not the fundamental So there is less fighting in the sub-region against the kick (usually) so there's that at least.
I think All genres benefit from sidechaining, especially in the low end, not just dance, so utilize that. That will save any limiter at the end A lot of work.
This principle is so straight forward
Trusting your ears with good headphones
I have never thought of Ignoring the red in the digital realm
Now that you’ve explained it, it seems obvious lol
Gonna give this a go 🙏❤️
This is fascinating. 👍Having just about finished my first track in 20 years in FL which has taken far too long, I can see where I have gone wrong along the way and made my life somewhat more difficult. I will certainly try this in Ableton for my 2nd attempt.
It's not DAW specific just in case that wasn't clear.
Hi, very interesting video for sure.
I just stumbled across it and your channel.
When I get chance to spend some quality time in my man cave I'll sit down and give it a go. I'm using Ableton, sometimes Reaper.
I've also noticed I need to really down down on the Reverb and learn how to use it correctly and on what. I'm definitely using it too much.
Anyways, I enjoyed watching, subscribed to your channel and looking forward to watching.
Best wishes.
Banging track and videos as always! Any tips for those who like using a lot of saturation with all of this in mind?
Ah good question, saturation shaves of transients and peaks so any clipping on the master becomes a lot more obvious and this doesn't really work.
It very much depends on why and how you are using saturation.
I would advise to be careful what you saturate, maybe leave it off transient drums or run it in parallel.
The good news is as with all distortion you are trading low frequencies for high (at equal volume), so at equal volume you should have less sub problems!
the bad news is you will have a lot more low mid problems and also that no-one runs saturation at equal volume 🤣.
My advice would be run at zero with an empty master still, just so you can hear when saturation is causing you problems and you can make adjustments.
@@Bthelickthanks for the detailed response! As a fan of the more distorted genres this will make my mastering tricky and require more research, I will definitely be referring back to this comment as well as these videos.
@@RoppongiTV having said that, brighter sounds in more aggressive genres Will tend to mask some clipping more so you'll have to experiment. All about listening. Just keep an ear out if you are ruining your punch and groove for the sake of loudness that's always the issue. My clipping is not pushing for extreme loudness, it's more about the transparent handling of groove.
Interesting Vid will probably save me a lot of head scratching & chasing my tail, I have a mix I thought was as good as I could get it at the present time, and to save me working with so many clips I decided to export each group as a track & mix them, and to include the full mix print for some parallel power(still yet to discover if I get any cancellation happening or other issues) & so I can simplify the project & apply some other FX to the group prints, and introduce new synth parts as I've freed up some cpu/processing, for live dub type alterations, but I've been exporting 24bit no dither perhaps I need to do it again. I also wonder if I am creating more issues doing it this way, as for example some tracks/groups duck other tracks, but I'm soloing the groups and exporting, so they may not be being ducked or sidechained as I had them, so I'm in the process of checking those issues out and perhaps re doing the sidechaining on the new track prints. (RU Dan.W? you sound the same)
It sounds like you're doing a similar thing to stem mastering, but with a parallel element.
I can't comment , as you can see I keep it mega simple I would find that kind of process stage completely unnecessary.
My track is already sounding like the refs after sound selection and minimal creative effects so I barely mix anything after that point beyond distortion problem solving. I usually finish a track in under 4 hours! Sounds fun to play around with but mixing is the least important part of the whole thing so anything that stops me getting lost at that stage and keeps me making more of the actual music the better! (Imo)
Haha no I'm not Dan, I'm trying to do my best impression of him though, I like his cadence. Or maybe it's just also English 🤣
@@Bthelick Well you deffo doing a good job sounding just like his delivery, I'm in the UK too Just over the water from Liverpool, I will be trying to keep things much simpler in the future, it's only really my second track which has turned into 1hr30 on the timeline, which has taken a few months but doesnt have enough in it at the moment, I'm just trying to reduce the stems/clutter & start a new project with the core 1hr30 and just add some new bits to finish it off, not working in 32bit only 44.1, after watching this I will be pushing the stems/tracks a little hotter,
@@beatskool101 I only work in 44 too. Its fine. You will be working in 32 though as your DAW is working at that rate already
@@Bthelick Surely most of the stems you are working with in your project where already produced/mastered to correct/good levels and already exported with dither?
I'm not working with stems. Sorry I'm confused, Is there a misunderstanding?
Nothing is already produced or mastered that sounds like it would be a disaster.
I'm making parts from scratch except drums in which I'm selecting individual samples.
I would never want anything already mastered that means you have no control over the sound.
No stems involved in my workflow at all.
Thank you for share with us your secrets!
yooooo, new learnings here!!! I've somewhat tried to mix like this and I've actually noticed you can have a decent mix even with redlining but my struggle was the exporting because i only wanted it to clip to 0 db and here i found your video!
It already is clipping at zero. (See the first video if you want to know why)
Only if you export at the full quality of 32bit float will it stay 'over'.
What you are listening to is clipped (your audio interface is not 32 bit float)
So the overs you see in three DAW do not exist in the 'real world'.
If you export at any fixed bit format you will see it is already clipped at zero.
Fixed bit audio can not go past zero
Im happy to have seen this video, I have been thinking about this concept for a long time. As I've been producing more and more music, the less mastering I've needed... I did wonder if there was a way to do without it while retaining loudness. I'll be trying this out and checking out your other videos too.
yessss i was thinking about how to do something like this, thank you :)
Steve Duda is truly a GOAT.
Pretty great insight.
Maybe I should sort some things out on my Master Bus.
🔥 Thanks, man. i can't wait to try this out..
My last comment sounds a bit mean 😂😅😅 but I'm not at all.
I just wanna understand mixing and mastering 🙏💚
Can’t remember who it was, but years ago I read about a well known producer who said he didn’t compress or master anything and did everything adjusting volumes and eq by ear
Once again you've proved why your video's are the best on RUclips.......it's always a " I can't click on it fast enough moment " when i see a new video drop from Bthelick, top tutorial as per usual...... 🔥🔥
Good video, with lots of good tips! For this track you're working on here, I think a bit less energy around 200hz in the kick would make sense, shifting the weight of the track a bit further down, increasing the energy below 100hz. I get what you say about headroom, but since there's not a set LUFS you have to reach, just lower the LUFS appropriately, or counter act it with adding more energy to the midrange of the mix. (Observations done subjectively in a fully treated studio on PSI A23/RME ADI 2 Pro-FS, before I get flamed)
This man knows his onions...I love your Memento Mori track mate
Thanks. This is why a 2nd pair of ears is useful 🙏 Having said that I made this at home for the video in about an hour haha.
I didn't plan on spending any more time on it apart from arrangement for the Spotify and tik-tok edits , it's fine to go out imo. I've not had any translation problems for a while.
I mean when you've seen PAWSA - room service go off in a club , it's clear all this nitpicking is just exactly that isn't it 🤣
Excellent as always, brother
Always a good day when Bthelick posts
Thank you for always securing the foundation in your videos first and foremost, your approach is always the best lesson of the video. With that being said could you do a video on how you approach sampling? Perhaps something that samples drums and leads/vocals from the same track, would just love to know your process thanks!
I do talk about samples in my garage advanced sampling video.
Did you see that one?
@@Bthelick I have not, but will check that out thank you!
GOAT level advice. Hey, would there be any benefit in clipping the individual tracks (The Baphometrix Clip to zero method) ?
No clip to zero doesn't work.
It's simple physics of sound , if you clip individual tracks to zero, then combine just 2 of them you get +6 again. So the clipping doesn't prevent anything , it just causes more distortion, of the worst kind.
It's far more transparent sounding to just clip the once at the end and only the drum transients.
Clipping before clipping doesn't 'save' any level / headroom, it just creates clipping of the clipping!
Thanks, that makes sense! When you say clip once at the end, that's the master channel going into the red right? You dont put a clipper on it or or the drum channel?
Yes I mean the master in red. That is the clipping. 👍
Thank the lord of youtube algorithm for recommending this. thank you so much. By the way, is there a way to download the free afterlife sample pack? when I go on the website, it says that this store is unable to make orders. Can you help out? Thanks!
I've heard it's broken. I'm not associated with it at all sorry. I couldn't even find any contact info to nudge them guess I'll have to make to my own.
Hi Trance Master, I love this song, can`t wait until it finished...
Nah, this video is a life changer 🙌
It really brought back my music production love..
My music is no longer squashed.
Thanks man..
This is real info! I came to this through self-taught knowledge, and it's amazing! Great channel!
In the previous video you mentioned that you listen for distortion and then work to get it away. Guess that was too subtle of an answer. But this video drives that point. Thanks for the awesome videos!
I think this will be the most important EDM mastering video on the internet.
Oh boy. Right now, I am struggeling with my first mix and master bs while always looking at the red light. Thank you for helping me out!
Best music mate ever.
Thank you for your very understandable video!!
This was amazing man! Good work! 🎉
Maaaaaan finally ❤❤
as always very insightful ! I will have to mix my kick and bass right to where the distortion would start in order for this technique to work ? Thanks for your help :)
Basically yeah. It's more that you need to find your sounds and set their levels to the reference. Which you'll find is usually on the edge of distortion. The subs use up the most energy so they will be right at the top.
a master limiter solves all the problems then you don't even have to think about the sub bass interacting, just choose a better sounding (or real) bass and never think about it. Just make it sound great as you work out the track. What I think about is that if it was a live improvised performance, then there would be no way to duck the bass, or do fancy tricks. So if you can make it sound like it came together on a live stage, you can make it sound amazing. Just think about those specific sounds melding in real life and make it sound like that . . boom instant good!
No a master limiter does not solve all problems. It prevents clipping, which only one type of problem, and introduces it's own problems in doing so which in my opinion are worse than clipping. Because the way I do this results in invisible clipping of micro transients. I haven't heard a limiter yet which can deal with dance music levels of low end and transients and keep both.
That's why I stop using them. Because the low end reaches the limit to first, the low end is the hardest bit for a limiter to deal with without audible distortion or time-related issues, and in a genre where groove is Paramount that is far less transparent than clipping transients.
Another great video! Just to note, i think the -14 lufs measurment for Spotify has more to do with their "Auto levelling" option in the app settings on some, but not all, platforms (my built in car app doesn't have it for example),in my tetsting this is usually on by default.
To quote spotify "Loudness normalization means we don't always play your track at the level it's mastered. Target the loudness level of your master at -14dB integrated LUFS and keep it below -1dB TP (True Peak) max."
Note "we don't always" .....
Yes, it's what they are supposed to auto level with. But once my manager made an edit of one of my tracks and exported it himself (there's usually no problem because I don't have anything on the master bus and I use 99% freeware so he can usually just load the Ableton session in tact) but for whatever reason, this track was exported very quietly.
He didn't spot it and uploaded it for release.
It remains on Spotify at that low level. It was never Auto leveled. That's what I meant when I said we had evidence they aren't using the standard.
You can turn off volume normalization. -14 lufs is absolutely quiet. They can move those goal posts and any time, rendering your song useless
Im glad I went with an unmastered approach to music, sure my early releases sucked, hearing hihats or kicks that were way too loud, drowning everything, but I think I've finally narrowed it down
Yep it's not fool proof, all mixing techniques rely on ear training in the end.
Having mixed and mastered my own tracks and released on some.of house musics biggest labels, this really interests me.
Couple of quick questions for clarification if I may ?
- what starting point volume wise do you use for kick and bass? Do you pull fader of kick track down to say -10 or anything as a start point?
- if using saturators for example or tape emulation to add weight and warmth to a track, this is usually placed on the master bus, how would you accommodate this if master is to have no processing on?
Thanks 👍🏼
Name a label I've released on it too. (Not under this name, in my ghost work) This method has never had me rejected, in fact quite the opposite as some labels have previously insisted their own contractors mastered the track, but none of their masters were preferred over my mix.
No I don't reduce any faders or certainly not by that amount. again it's all about the reference. most kick samples that get close to the references are around the zero mark already, there may need a db here or there. (Remember if triggering via midi to turn off or compensate for velocity sensitivity so the sample plays back at its original volume)
the point is for you to match the reference as the reference already is, at it's released level.
Obviously it initially seems like it would be impossible to match a 'mastered' reference without mastering, but it turns out it's actually easier this way (imo).
Saturation can be dangerous, it entirely depends on the source it's applied to.
For example I hate tape saturation on drums because the head bump and hysteresis tends to lengthen kick drums beyond what I initially intended , Even though psychoacoustically it appears to give you more fatness, when working at zero, you realize what this costs you at the master stage. Again, another great benefit of this method.
No enhancement is free, thus why It's just easier to get the sounds right in the first place.
Saturation also deletes transients, So anything passed to the master bus makes any clipping is far more obvious.
I tend to only use saturation on non-transient material like certain basses.
when working at this 'already mastered' kind of level there can be gain staging concerns with some non-linear processors like saturators, especially ones with no internal calibration, as some consider -12dbfs etc to be 'normal' input. something to keep an ear out for.
@Bthelick appreciate the reply mate, and the detailed analysis. Have a project on the go. Ow that I'm going to apply this method too.
I feel people get bogged down with mastering thinking they need all sorts on it, when more often than not it just takes away the clarity.
Very good! Have you seen the Baphometrix clip to zero method? Very similar to this but goes a little futher. I use this all the time and it's second nature now. Loud clear dynamic mixes, that always hit - 6lufs. But you know what, even after al that i still send for mastering. I'll tell you why. Because a good mastering engineer can most deffinately add a little polish. When i check between my master rendered file and the one back from mastering there's always a little more weight, a little more umph in the bass. Also after working on a track for so long a fresh set of ears can pick out things that sometimes i don't hear and so the feedback is very helpful. All the methods you show are used in the clip to zero method but it goes deeper and takes about 50 hours to go through the whole thing, which i did, and i'm glad because now it's burnt into my frontal cortex! Thanks for the video :-)
Yup there's always room for improvement. I still send to mastering engineers when the client requests. Usually because we've never had more than 1 day on it.
Baphomatrix's clip to zero involves pre clipping at channel and bus levels which only makes things worse imo (also in terms of digital sound science doesn't actually work as adding 2 clipped signals together = +6 which just creates more clipping)
@@Bthelick interesting, i shall, have to look into what you say, as i'm not so knowledgeable in the science dept. I'll do some research on this. Thanks for the reply.
ok so i'm trying to grasp a hold of what you say about that you think it's worse. Yes the process does take place at each channel and indeed group busses too, but only as passives, same with the master bus, not doing anything but just sitting there. I also use psyscope pro, amazing tool, for visual rep to see whats clashing and to make sure side chains are doing their correct job. So when i'm looking at my wave form on the master, there's plenty of dynamics, loud, very loud, and crystal clear. Like you said, listen. And when i listen i hear no problems. Then once rendered out i have great looking wave form that sounds great. Before it goes to mastering, i use a master vcr to bring the level down by about 2-3 db for the mastering, as was shown in the clip to zero method. The mastering house hear no problems in th audio, and beleive me they tell when there's a problem. So could you tell me how you think this is not a great method to loud clear dynamic mixes. I'm genuine by the way. If your method does what it says on the tin then i ought to try it our and see. IN fact i have a new loop going that i have just used the CTZ method on. I culd disable all that and try yours. Then compare. I could even send to you, with out letting you know which is which and see you can spot any differences? Thanks
It's simply the fact that he uses clipping on the channels and buses before reaching master. That's not how digital audio works, it doesn't 'save' any headroom in the long run and only creates more problems at the master buss stage and more aliased clipping down stream.
If it's working for you then great don't worry, I'm only saying the science doesn't add up because his fundamental theory is flawed.
But if you're confident in your ear training and you like the sound then go for it.
I'm not about to enter a me vs x technical method battle with people sending me tracks haha. I've been releasing music for 10 years like this professionally to hundreds of millions of streams across accounts and it's literally paying the bills , I'm not seeking change because there's no problem right now. This video is not for comparing methods, it's to help those that are struggling . (And to clear up some misinformation)
If you still have problems , i.e you don't trust your ear training yet and your releases aren't getting any plays then obviously start seeking changes sure you can definitely try my method it's a LOT less steps but only if there's a problem.
Be careful off this academic back and forth of technical matters 'on paper', I see it everyday on gear space / Reddit and it's 99% hobbyists that have got obsessed with numbers instead of music , and usually don't actually release any music for a living.
@@Bthelick Hey thanks for the reply. NO i don't get caught up back and forth stuff, never have.
My music has had over 50 mil streams, bbc music introduing plays and signed to labels. Still not making bugger all from it though lol.
So something is working.
Wow im very suprised you say this is a flawed method. Until i got this ctz method under my belt i just couldn't get my mixes loud or dynamic enough at the same time.
I do enjoy the technical side of things a lot, but my knowledge in the actual science is something i'm still learning.
Well i am going to try your way and see how it goes. As far as the CTZ setting up, i have a template so all plugins clippers are all loaded from the offset from a blank project, so it's easy to get going and because i use it all thie time, i can do it at speed. So it's not slow to get going.
Right well i'm going to go over your video again, learn your way and give it a go and see how i get on. :-)
Instead of the toilet test, I made an FL patcher preset for the "Lost Lands on a phone video" test. I even compose in it sometimes, so playback doesn't desensitise me to my music by making me think it's worse than it really is. When I turn it off, it's like hearing it for the first time, the way someone would actually experience a first listen.
Brilliant video, useful, practical and easy to understand. Subscribed.
Top channel, always loads of cool tips!!! Cheers!!!!
Brilliant mate ❤
This is brilliant! Love the simplicity of it.
Just to make sure I understand - you essentially begin with your kick peaking at 0, and then everything else is balanced to it, right?
In the case of EQing a kick of changing the envelope (which might therefore affect the final volume a little) - would you compensate with additional gain to bring it back up to 0? Thanks again!!!
Well you're still working to the reference, that's always your go to. If that means the kick has to be at peaking zero so be it. You'll usually find it's around there. , but remember as I said in the first video the peak of a signal and that number mean nothing so don't go using it as a benchmark.
2 kicks peaking at zero on a digital peak meter means one can still sound double the volume of the other so never use the numbers, use your ears and reference.
@@Bthelick that makes sense! Thanks so much!
Great video! But, what about a situation where, let's say, the kick pattern changes. Like at the end of a loop there are multiple kicks, like a kick fill/roll. Then that will create a huge spike in loudness and introduce distortion. Now wouldn't this be a great place to group the bass and the kick tracks and put a limiter on that group instead of volume automation or something else. Idea would be that the limiter's treshold only picks up the busy kick part. Or what is your approach? Even with a reference track this problem would still occur I think.
Yes of course it will cause it will cause problems , but it's a problem regardless, for a limiter too, or any other process. The laws of physics dictates you can't have that many long waveforms overlapping. So you still have to make steps to arrange that section. Be it removing the sub at that point or automating levels. I certainly have reached for a limiter in occasional circumstances where the groove damage doesn't matter, and I just automate them on for that section.
love your videos!!