Picard: Is He The Most Reckless Captain In Star Trek?
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
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They could have had other Fed. ships handling security while the war game was ongoing.
My point exactly
Which just shows how stupid the Federation is here.
I support the goal of protecting your crew members and not leaving anyone behind. I do not consider that to be naive. I believe in all for one and one for all. I believe in the entitlement to peace and in pacifistic ideals. I agree with Riker that in an organization devoted to exploration and diplomacy, combat should not be a priority, and that combat should be the purview of a military (though Starfleet is acting as a military unfortunately).
However, just as you and others have said, they are acting stupid.
* They should have had other ships watching the perimeter.
* They should have had messages going out that they were in a training exercise.
* They could have detached the saucer section to protect the bulk of the crew, while they engaged in rescue operations.
* They should have had a number of precautions to prevent this from ever occurring.
* There should not be families on a flagship exploratory vessel going to totally unknown areas.
* And so on...
Another great idea would to also have taken the families off the ship for the combat exercises. It is one of the few times they knew that combat (simulated but still) was coming.
Even if they never though security would be necessary having other ships observing or even just to help out of something went wrong would have been a good idea.
If you were one of the 40, you'd be happy of Picards decision.
Later in this episode, Data trolls the military advisor so hard he ragequits from a game they are playing.
😂
"I busted him up."
He didn't like the fact data was playing about with him
A game that Data actually couldn't win. Only being able to keep the other guy from winning.
@captain A game Days could theoretically win by stalemate until the humanoid needs sleep and starts to lose focus or the ability to play at all. Data should be able to play far longer without making mistakes or losing consciousness.
There's one problem I've always had with this episode. It's never made any sense to me why this battle simulation is taking place somewhere that was so easily accessible to opposing forces.
That just goes to highlight how complacent the Federation was and how ill prepared they were at the time.
Exactly, any and all war games should take place near the federations core worlds and not near any border or trade routes.
@@JaredLS10 Unless a part of the reason for the simulation was to hint at other powers what they could do as part of other diplomacy attempts or plans.
@@AzraelThanatos well that failed spectacularly
@@LoreReloaded I'm trying to remember the episode order, but TNG tended to have a lot of admirals who were, well, fuckups...and you had the infestation of bluegill that also might have been happening or did happen by that point.
This for me is Picard's "Janeway Moment"; the "I don't respond well to threats" (And makes that itself, sound like a threat), and then follows through on the Trek-equivalent of F**k You! Which honestly, makes it more believable. As a species, human's are incredibly stubborn, brave and stupid in equal measure and often at the same time.
I think he gambles that the Ferengi aren't actually interested in a fight. If this was a Romulan, Klingon or even Cardassian ship, he might have taken a different approach. But he reasons that there is no value to the Ferengi in destroying the Federation flagship, that will have MAJOR consequences that are likely to be unprofitable in the long run. And a Constellation class has previously been abandoned by the Star Fleet and captured by the Ferengi, so you can see the Ferengi reasoning; disable the Enterprise, get them to hand over the Hathaway and then bugger off and wait for Starfleet to shrug and move on. But Picard needed a way to get rid of the Hathaway, Riker gave him that and so he played his gamble.
It hardly the first time a Starfleet captain has played a reckless, even foolhardy gamble for a big W, but that's a very human trait.
And yes, this is one of my favourite episodes, just everything that makes Trek great in one place.
It is kind of moronic that there was no cordon around the area, surely the test of a ship-scale combat simulation system is something Starfleet would want to keep prying eyes well away from...
Well in cannon, the Ferengi have developed some of the most powerful warships, but never use them in force because it would be too expensive
Wasn’t the Stargazer destroyed by Ferengi? Picard might have flashbacks to his first ship and wasn’t gunna let Ferengi hurt his guys again
If I recall correctly, it wasn't destroyed but it was damaged to the point that they had to abandon it so it was programmed to fly into a sun and missed.
This episode, "Peak Performance" was S2EP21 while "The Battle" with the return of the _Stargazer_ was S1EP5 so he didn't have that unknown fate of his previous command hanging over him by this time.
@@danielseelye6005: S1E10*
The _Hathaway_ was a redressed _Stargazer,_ but a different ship, in-universe.
That's a pretty good point, Picard is shown repeatedly to be affected by the past more than he is willing to admit and often shows sign of lingering Trauma, which I think LR did a video on a while back.
0:04 - This really drives home the idea that TNG was the “decadent golden age” for the Federation. How many Fed officers thought like this, and how much death could have been prevented in the next couple of decades if they had taken preparations more seriously?
Agreed. The occasional strategy session and half-hearted war game just doesn't cut it.
"So _is this_ a *declaration of war* by the Ferengi upon the Federation?
Ferenginar will hold _you_ responsible for starting a war with the largest faction in the quadrant. Will they be pleased with your actions?
Or will they strip you of all profits and hand you over to Starfleet to avoid a war with our Empire?"
Oh, the Grand Nagus would absolutely hand them over. There is no world in which the Ferengi captain gets out of this in one piece. Maybe Picard doesn't do anything but that doesn't mean the Federation doesn't get involved.
@@Blasted2OblivionThe Federation had a terrifying punishment they could inflict on any Ferengi prisoner - _confiscation of all property and money._
A Ferengi sitting in a pleasant Federation prison would be horrified at the fact that they were bankrupt.
According to Ferengi beliefs they would be going to hell for eternity if they died bankrupt, from their perspective far better to die then and there but still be _financially solvent._
Starfleet masses a fleet on the border and informs the Ferengi that all trade with Federation members is banned (and perhaps get the Klingons to agree to a trade ban as well), and the Grand Negus will make the extended family/clans of every Ferengi who served on the offending ship destitute, as an appeasement gesture.
The enterprise had been through multiple “taps on the shoulder or they wouldn’t be there” for this to be a declaration of war.
Riker should have been chewed out later on (orn at least admitted he was wrong) for saying that combat was not a high priority for Starfleet.
If Starfleet truly is an exploratory and diplomatic organization, then Riker is correct, combat is not a high priority. However, Starfleet is in fact the space branch of their military, whether they admit it or not, and for a military combat is very important. Personally, I would be in favor of the demilitarization of Star Fleet if I lived in the Federation or one of their associated or allied worlds or colonies.
@@ArticBlueFox96A *pragmatic* Starfleet is actually a good set-up for an Interstellar society.
Having a large standing military just _sitting around_ is a security risk to the government, as they may decide to take over (a problem for the Romulans and the Klingons - who "solved" that issue by having it broken up and under control of many Houses, creating a whole new series of problems).
A standing military is also a waste of resources and personnel. What do they do during peacetime, besides policing and growling at rival powers?
For a 'peaceful civilisation' like the Federation _[pause for Lore to laugh]_ a huge standing military makes the neutral neighbours nervous.
Far better for the Federation to have a heavily armed (for "defensive purposes" only) peaceful exploration body that also does logistics and science and search and rescue and medical support and colony setup and..... *defence.*
And that can handle any minor conflicts that occur as a matter of course. If a major situation occurs, they can be already on the scene (as they likely created or at least discovered the situation), instead of waiting for the standard military to get there. "Our peaceful exploration ship is helpless until the battleships arrive from the nearest fleet." This is not the modern world where the military is already positioned around the globe, this is the age of sail where even merchants and explorers had firepower, because they might not have backup.
So far better to have your peaceful exploration ship be a halfway decent battle cruiser as well, just for the convenience..... and _to save on the doubling up of resources._
Thanks to technology a ship can be both a combat powerhouse and a multirole vessel that can do general duties and scientific exploration - scientific shenanigans can also be very useful in combat and can win the day. As well as Electronic Warfare (EW) there's TechnoBabble Warfare (TBW), many a enemy has come undone from a inverse tachyon pulse doing 'stuff'.
And with the advanced training techniques of Starfleet (including _Holodecks,_ they are a game changer), combat training is not difficult to add to the basic skillset as well, having multirole personnel.
The pragmatic setup for Starfleet is to realise that they have never 'won' and pacified everyone, so that preparation for war is prudent. Have their main fleet all have combat utility and the ability to readily translate to a full war footing, while also having a core fleet of pure combat ships that are already in a war footing.
*And keep the MACO's as specialist personnel.*
Have Starfleet be like a county with a hybrid standing army, everyone gets military reservists training while there's also a core of professional highly skilled military.
The only difference is in Starfleet everyone uses a Toyota pickup turned into a _Technical_ as their daily commute.
This was the golden age of starfleet as Lore keeps saying, and was pre-Dom war, so it wasn’t. Kinda like how NASA isn’t a military body( but they had to make space force a lot later on)
Short answer: No. Because Sisko punched Q and I can't think of anything MORE reckless than that.
We all know no captain can hold a candle in the terms of "recklessness" compared to Captain Janeway.
In the skirmish between Enterprise, Hathaway, and the Ferengi, you have two ships that are not ready for combat forced into a combat situation by a misunderstanding. The Enterprise has at least 1,000 souls on board, likely even more since I doubt the advisor was counting the civilians. The Hathaway, an older, weaker ship, has only 40 souls. Given the fact that the Enterprise is unable to even defend itself, let alone also defend the Hathaway, the only appropriate tactical decision is for the Enterprise to withdraw. Risking 1,000 or more people and the flagship of the Federation in an effort to save a ship that will probably be retired in a few more years is a foolish and wasteful choice.
But you are correct in your conclusion. Picard is, like Pike, an idealist. He believes in the ideals of the Federation and those ideals don't allow him to abandon his crew to their deaths, even if it means more people get killed.
That is a good thing. We need idealism. Better to die for ideals, than to be practical in a world that is miserable. However, I do agree that such idealism must be tempered with logic. The outcomes do matter, and while Picard (and Pike) should not abandon their crew members, they must approach the situation strategically.
Slightly over 1000 is inclusive of civilians, duty personnel is ~650 iirc
@@ArticBlueFox96 Idealism is great... IF you agree with the ideals being followed. Fascists and religious fundamentalists are also idealists and many were and are willing to die for their ideals. Doesn't sound quite as great when someone's ideals differ from yours does it?
@@lunatickoalaHowever, the Federation's ideals are freedom, peace, non-violence, preservation of life, discovery, coexistence, etc...
picard also wanted to rescue the romulans as they were threatened with extinction because of the hobus star system collapsing, and picard hoped that saving them would result in a powerful alliance or even romulan membership which would be more beneficial than 3-4 single star states that would leave the federation.
I mean, Picard has shown that he's willing to recklessly sacrifice the lives of entire civilizations just so that HE doesn't have to worry about breaking any rules. I think that's a form of recklessness. However... No, he is NOT the most reckless captain. Just ask the... survivors... of Voyager's journey through the Delta Quadrant.
The Ferengi aren't stupid. Trade the lives on the Hathaway for the ship. Ask to evac the people and then let the Ferengi have it.
Also doesnt the Hathaway have transports? What about the shuttles, they have transports.
Finally, Picard couldn't let the Hathaway get blown up because Wesley is on it. I'm still convinced Picard is Wesley's father.
Picard was mad at Q in "Q Who" when 18 people were lost to the Borg, he truly does care about humanity.
Picard is Starfleet's equivalent of The Doctor, Brains over Brawn, Gives everyone a fair chance and if they choose otherwise then we all knows the results!
Picard should have been one of Starfleet's finest ThinkTanks but nope it all went downhill after Nemesis.
That is because the lost of any life, no matter who, no matter the circumstances, no matter what is a great tragedy and something to be avoided if possible. Picard made the right choice to prioritize rescuing the lives of crew members. The problem I have, is that they did it in a stupid way, without taking precautions, and that the Federation did not have precautions in place to prevent this situation from arising in the first place.
@@ArticBlueFox96 Ah, yes... that's why Picard was willing to sacrifice an entire civilization in Season 7 just so that he wouldn't have to risk violating the prime directive.
@@BioGoji-zm5phPicard made the right choice to prioritize rescuing the lives of crew members, but he made the wrong choice to try and sacrifice an entire civilization to avoid violating the prime directive. The prime directive has a lot of flaws, and Picard was inconsistent with the valuing of sentient life. Also, just like he could have gone about rescuing crew members in a smarter way, he also could have saved that civilization in an intelligent way without violating the prime directive. The issue here is not that the Federation and its captains are wrong to value life, and being idealistic; just that they are remarkably incompetent and stupid in their procedures and operations.
@@ArticBlueFox96 I... wasn't arguing that the Federation as a whole was wrong. Just Picard. I know this because Captains like Kirk and Sisko would have done what you'd suggested and found ways to save people without violating the Prime Directive (usually, as Kirk WAS willing to toss the directive to the wayside if he were to find himself in a situation where it seemed that the only way to save any particular civilization DID require violating the PD.).
Reminder: This episode includes one of the most notable "dammit westley" moments
Picard was morality right, and he was tactically wrong.
reminds me of an older meme i saw a while ago. kirk only seems so reckless because hes compared to spock. and picard seems so calm because hes next to riker. picard nearly died in a bar fight before he earned to chill out
Looking this over I keep hitting one issue. (I have many for this episode) The in and out of universe divide. In universe this was reckless and the plan even more so. Picard could have used diplomacy with the Ferengi. You care about the crew not the older ship. Explain it is a war game, but he is willing to trade for the Hathaway. But the ferengi did damage the Enterprise transporters, so by the 77th rule of acquisition the ferengi will be charged for the repairs. . . Thus Picard uses diplomacy in place of violence and shows Why combat is a minor province.
Out of universe, one item is the Enterprise is supposed to separate the saucer when going to combat to send those civilians to safety. Then the much nimbler and now much tougher star drive section goes to battle. Why is this out of universe? Because the separation sequence is costly so often ignored for budget reasons.
Picard actually had other options. Get the Enterprise out of there and order the Hathaway to surrender, for instance. We've seen before that, battlecrap or not, a Ferengi Marauder is not equal to a Galaxy. The Marauder is either going to loot the Hathaway and bug out, or attempt to take control of the Hathaway, which will take considerable time. If the former, the Ferengi will get some loot, but are unlikely to harm the Starfleet crew - there's no profit in doing so. If the latter, the Enterprise comes back in an hour or so with full combat systems and forces the Ferengi to back down. Enterprise could even conduct a saucer separation in the meantime so that the civilians are relatively safe.
It is a tactical problem. Sacrifice the Hathaway to save a thousand souls.
On the Tuvix issue, two lives are more valuable than one.
Not if you want to save the 300+ members on the intrepid
@@LoreReloadedThe Tuvix issue is grey. However, I do not think that it was really murder. Tuvix was a fusion of Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvok was not dead, Neelix was not dead, they were fused, they were two people in one, they were an experience (like in Steven Universe's gem fusions). Similarly Tuvix is not dead when unfused, he just returned to his previous unfused state as two individuals instead of one, and Tuvok and Neelix still carry with them their time as Tuvix. It is true that Tuvix was unfused against their will, out of the mistaken belief that unfusing is akin to death, but leaving them fused as Tuvix is not murdering Tuvok or Neelix, and unfusing Tuvix back into Tuvok and Neelix is not murdering Tuvix.
Think about it in the context of a Vulcan mind meld. The two or more minds that were separate are now one, sharing their memories, thoughts, emotions, personalities, experiences, perceptions, reality, etc... They are effectively are mini-hive-mind (which arguably many telepathic or empathic societies could be, or at least proto-hive-minds). This melding is not considered a murder of the individuals involved, and the breaking of the meld or the unmelding is not considered a murder of a fused/melded mind. They are merely different states of existence for the minds/consciousnesses involved, fused/melded/hive-minded states, and unfused/unmelded/individual states.
@@ArticBlueFox96 both were dead. Gone. Lol I can’t believe people are still defending it. Tuvix was a unique being. They didn’t save them. They weren’t in danger . They were gone.
@@jamesbizsMy argument is that no one was killed. Tuvok and Neelix were not dead when they fused to become Tuvix, they were both parts of Tuvix. Tuvix was not dead when he defused back into his constituent parts. I agree that Tuvok and Neelix were not in any danger, because they were right there in the form of Tuvix, they were not gone. Tuvix perceived himself to be a unique being (instead of correctly understanding himself to be a unique experience for the constituent consciousnesses) and mistakenly perceived being unfused as a form of death and was ultimately unfused against his will. We can debate the ethics and morality of that decision (I honestly don't know where I stand on, if that decision was right or wrong). However, I would not consider that to be murder. It is similar to a mind meld. Two or more minds or consciousness meld to become one, however none of the constituent minds were killed in this process, and the breaking of the mind meld did not kill the melded being. All that happened was that the individual minds changed states and the melded mind changed states.
This was a crazy episode. Why not have a battle simulation mode which locks everything in the minimum yield ? This same mode could be engaged and disengaged with a computer access code from either of the top 3 officers.
Short answer is no, nothing reckless about this.
Not trying and sacrificing 40 people when there was a better way is reckless. Picard was a well known diplomat and negotiator, but also had a lot of combat experience before the events of this episode and was even an accomplished pilot. TNG doesn't show this aspect of Picard very often, but he had the practical military experience (also never liked having families on a military ship) to know it was possible to come up with another way out of that mess. They also previously pointed out that the military advisor's race where only known as brilliant strategists, and Worf did correctly point out that the reputation means nothing if it's not tested in real combat and Picard proved it.
Yes, the whole situation was stupid, but I do think Picard also thought giving up and sacrificing the other ship would have been far more stupid than the situation itself.
There's a lot of issues with the setup for this situation, like the location for the wargames and even the use of the Hathaway itself given it's condition at the start of the episode. Not to mention they have holodecks where they could recreate any ship at all in relative safety - because we all know how "safe" the holodecks are.
I think this episode, either by design and intent or not, shows how ill prepared Starfleet is when thinking military. We even see it with Riker describing wargames as a waste of time and a small part of their remit.
And then Wolf 359 happened.
I will say this, I've never shared the idea a lot of nay sayers have about the Galaxy class being a poor warship, I think it does have some decent teeth, just not enough, coupled with a crew that seems to be blissfully unaware of how dangerous space can really be from a combat perspective.
For me, I actually faulted the Military Advisor. Why did he setup the mock battle to take place someplace that wasn’t secure? I look at precautions we use nowadays or even back in the 80s when this was filmed and ask why weren’t similar precautions followed? It’s almost as though it was setup to fail on purpose.
I was kind of hoping for something longer, that talked about several times he has been reckless, but a good man.
Why doesn't the Hathaway abonden ship and use the escape pods to get to the enterprise or somewhere else. Just have the hathaway set to collide/ distract the ferengi before the enterpise collects the survivors and warps away. Please correct me if I am wrong
I don't mind families on star ships but ONLY within known space or on colony ships. If a Federation ship is on a five year mission in unknown space, there is no need to put non Starfleet lives in danger.
One thing that bothered me....the Ferengi, even in a superior tactical position, were still willing to negotiate. Picard could have used that to get the Hathaway crew back, leaving the Ferengi with an obsolete ship that they wouldn't have had to tow to a scrapyard. Win-win.
No. If you permit marauding, it emboldens the adversary. As seen in SNW S1 finale, being soft could and would get you in trouble from time to time.
Of course a really smart Captain would use the shuttles and the Captains Yacht which all have transporters that could be used to grab all forty people on the other ship.
Captain’s yacht on a galaxy class? Umm source?
@@andouille1 You're kidding right? We never saw it in TNG but it was referenced twice on screen during the show (on computer display). It's also in the blueprints. But even if you don't accept that as canon in Insurrection they take the Captains Yacht (Enterprise E) to the surface of the planet in the movie. The D was certainly big enough to have a Captain's Yacht which is just a glorified shuttle.
Honestly, i can respect a "no man left behind" leader
Also, if I'm correct, Picard noted in his log that he was responsible for the situation both vessels were in. After all, they were fooled once already by false sensor readings, one could forgive him for thinking it was a repeat action of Worf.
Therefore, one could reasonably surmise his subsequent actions were to rectify his previous decision.
Picard should have separated the the saucer section with all of the families aboard and sent it away leaving the stardrive section to face the Ferangi.
That probably also would have resolved the weapons being offline issue.
Ferengi were already being annoying about why the enterprise was “fighting” another ship, they probably would have tractored/captured the saucer section and asked why the saucer section was so important that the enterprise (stardrive) was trying to protect it. Also 2/3 impulse engines are on the saucer. The stardrive would be less maneuverable. So no, bad idea to do it then. Back in line. Thanks.
i mean the fact the ferengi were able to take the enterprise by surprise is somewhat laughable.
The reasoning is.. silly.. but not completely unbelievable
@@LoreReloaded yeah true with the fact that ships weapons were not functional. but yeah i mean the ferengi in general were just kind of a mess. like i get what they were trying to go for i think but its like it became obvious the ferengi where just hard to take seriously.
People: Families should be on starships.
Me: Families don’t even live on cruise ships.
Why didnt they have a ship or two supervising the war games
Why wasnt the entire exercise carried out in a holodeck though? 🤔
I loved the video, but I've been trying to find the opening song you used for the Dominion War Chronicles for the longest time. Please someone tell me that song.
It’s that so called recklessness that makes Picard as good as he is!
As in the best!
tuvix was a industrial work place accident janways was duty bound to fix
Lol. No
@jamesbizs well yes. Voyager is a work place an a piece of industrial equipment failed to work correctly.
In actually, this break down has elements in history. Take a look at the real story of BAT-21 from Vietnam. That will be your context.
Thank you for the breakdown of this 34 year old episode, it was a better one of the first two seasons. I think I remember watching its first run with my dad back in the day. Kolrami was a hoot, he was so pompous.
There is also the morale and political consideration to this decision. If people knew that Starfleet would just sacrifice them at the first sign difficulty, why would sign up for it? Without loyalty to each other, the organization falls apart.
This, when you allies cannot count on you anymore, it's the end of your alliance, no matter how tactically justified you think you are, you just proven that given the right circumstances, everyone is an acceptable sacrifice, yes, stupidly following your ideals and dying for them is what needs to be done if you ever want people to trust you.
I have a whole load of problems with the Starfleet of this period, and this episode highlights the biggest gripe I have- that they think that Starfleet ISN'T a military organization, and treat it as excessive. It's like they completely ignore the fact that that the Federation is practically surrounded by potentially or outright hostile forces (Romulans, Tholians, Cardassians, Xindi, etc.), and that they are always ready and eager to pounce on the defenseless and easy prey.
Hell, Federation itself was basically forged in war with the Romulans, and they just forget it all? No wonder that a single Borg cube nearly teabagged them, or a third rate power like Cardassians was able to fight the Federation- Starfleet has forgotten it's origin and half of the reason it exists, and that is to protect the Federation and it's people and ideals. And yet that same Starfleet has lost it's teeth to do it, and Federation is willing to simply lose worlds to get peace...
This and other reasons why I think this Starfleet is a joke, and why I think that Borg and Dominion War were a necessary wake up call for them. It peeled away the arrogance of these peacifists and showed them something that they should've remembered: Galaxy isn't a friendly place, and there are those that do not want to make friends with them.
I would tractor Hathaway use torpedos to detonate ahead of ferengi to blind their sensors then warp out.
I probably would have tried to save the Hathaway's crew as well. I should hope I might also have evacuated the civilian personnel beforehand though. I loath Picard but I've always admired his staunch adherence to his convictions.
"Needs of the many" is a personal choice not one to be imposed outside of a military conflict
Where were those advanced military advisers during the Dominion War?
My guess? Either dead or joined the dominion. Tactically, joining is the smart move but I can see the Dominion looking at them as a threat and sending out some changelings to tear them apart from within or a fleet of Jem Hadar to just scorch the world.
Plot Twist! They WERE the Changelings the whole time! 😲
@@EricRuskoski That would be a lazy plot twist then. Changelings can be anyone or anything, and are confirmed to be far reaching enough that they could have agents, though low in number, basically everywhere in the galaxy. Now, if the writers of Star Trek wanted, they could make anything or everything, SURPRISE it is changelings. Without building up a story where it makes sense for changelings to be involved, making something changelings is very lazy writing.
Sorry I was being random, they weren't actually changelings, but you never know! Changelings are pretty tactically inclined, but your point is valid! @@ArticBlueFox96
You guys need to keep facts straight. The dom sent out 100 of their own long time ago to explore the galaxy, they only started infiltrating after discovery of the bajoran warmhole (well after this episode). So no.
My two thoughts are not specifically with Picard himself but two other points you made.
1. You are correct. They absolutely have zero reason to have families on board the Enterprise. It may not technically be a military vessel but it is the flagship of a pseudo-military organization and deals with combat a lot. A smaller research vessel in a more secure part of space? Sure, bring the kids. Not on the ship that is effectively the tip of the spear.
2. You point out that the Ferengi shouldn't be dumb enough to fall for the trick but at least these ones absolutely would be. They were dumb enough to attack the Federation flagship. Even if the Enterprise is in no condition to win the fight, it's not like the Federation won't figure out what happened. Then you have one of the Federation war hawks knocking on the Grand Nagus's door demanding answers or blood. Considering how it's the Enterprise, word will get around specifically who hit it so the Grand Nagus is gonna talk. The short version is that there is no world in which a Ferengi captain profits from taking the Enterprise. Maybe the Ferengi as a species aren't stupid enough to try it but these specific ones certainly sound like it.
But the Enterprise is not supposed to be the tip of a spear. It is supposed to be the tip of a diplomatic outreach to make friends across the galaxy. The Federation wants the Enterprise to be a representative of the Federation's peaceful ideals. Filling it with families and civilians is one way to hopefully discourage the crew from solving problems using violence and to help aliens see that the Federation is not a civilization of soldiers.
@@Ansatz66 That idea has a huge problem on it's face. Putting innocent civilians in harms way to discourage violence is a horrible idea. The way you do that is in training. You teach your cadets to use diplomacy first. That way, if you do end up in a fight that you can't avoid, you don't have to worry about a bunch of families getting killed and second guessing every choice you make. I know this probably came across as hostile and I am sorry for that but I don't know how better to put it.
I assume the D in Picard has all the bugless upgrades on galaxy class designs
Picard definitely walks the fine line between recklessness and ingenious. But its his support, being the command staff, that usually keeps him in line. They don't blindely follow his orders, nor does Picard fully expect them to if a good reason is present. Sisko teeders a bit more towards reckless, but wartime brings desperate measures. Everyone else I feel, for the exception of Kirk, plays more closely by the book.
Thank you for your videos. They are always good to watch. 👍
With regards to families on Starships.
If the Starship operates well within Federation space, then I don't see an issue.
BUT!!
If the Starship operates on the frontier, "boldly going into battle"
Then its ridiculous, the Enterprise shouldn't have families on board, for their type of mission
Agreed
IDK I feel like Archer or Janeway could be considered more Reckless.
I'll even defend having families on ships. 1. the Enterprise is not a war ship and 2 not having your family close to you leads to them missing you and you missing them which leads to loneliness and infidelity .
Now the Enterprise could have done saucer separation more often or had family kept at a space station that they would return to frequently or have two ships that follow each other or some thing. or just not let officers start families.
As close to home as Enterprise was it could have worked some thing out.
But as I saw to MASH or Major Dad what's wrong with having family on base or an hour's away from base?
Family works on DS9 in any episode before the Dominion war. It was a space station and was considered to be a place to stop and relax and shop.
As for Voyager they should have had MORE family. Every one was away from home with no clue if they would get home in there life times they should have been popping out children to take over the ship for them if the adults all aged to death. They could have run a training program on voyager to give children only one choice, the crew the ship and get to Earth.
Or better yet Voyager should have given up going home and settled on an M class planet and staid there. Then sent the Doctor home to send ships to pick people up. Done the Lightyear story of "This new planet is home why should we return to a place we never been ?"
Having a family on Enterprise is like having a family on the Trinidad or inside a covered wagon on the Orgon Trail Having family travel with James Cook or Sacajawea or Robert Pearyor Willem Janszoon. So Historically explorers would not have family with them, but this is the future. The point is Enterprise wasn't at war. It was more like the HMS Beagle it wasn't there to fight. It only needed to protect its self.
If you didn't want family you should have been against Starfleet cadets having relationships. Made getting married a reason to leave Starfleet.
Hired only career minded people.
The needs of the many do outweigh the needs of the few, but the needs of the few and the needs of the individual are of absolute value. If it is possible to save a life, one must at least try within reason, even if you do not know the outcome. I like to think of it as one for all, and all for one. Either we all thrive, or we all die. Though you are right, on an exploratory flagship space faring vessel that is meeting unknowns, danger is very likely. It makes sense that the most groundbreaking exploratory vessels are the most likely to go missing. On such a craft, families should not be on board. It may make sense for families to be on board stationary bases that are open to the public like DS9, or on routine space craft that are researching or travelling in known space, but not on something like the Enterprise. Everyone on the Enterprise should be prepared for the possibility of death.
leave no man behind is a human thing
It is also a good and moral position and policy to hold. One for all and all for one.
Not even close to as reckless as flying into a binary pulsar.
The Galaxy class starships were advertised to be long range exploratory vessels designed for 15 year long missions. It is reasonable to expect that experienced Star Fleet personnel with families would not want to be separated from them that long. It is foolish to think that Star Fleet personnel without families would not end up producing children during that 15 year long mission. Families would have been inevitable.
But, of course, they never were actually used for that purpose, and yet the theme of the show that galaxy class starships were ships with families had to be adhered to.
In fairness if either they beat the Ferrengi and save everyone or the Federation flagship is destroyed by a Ferrengi marauder and Starfleet will need to rethink everything if they have any hope against an actual enemy like the Romulans, Borg, or even Cardassians which I believe they are still at war with at this point. Whatever happens lives will be saved.
Lol this whole episode is just trolley problems in space! Now i wanna play FTL
The Trolley Problem is one of the stupidest philosophical questions. It is meant to reduce things to a binary choice to save one group or the other, to determine your ethics or morals. However, in real life there are always circumstances and contexts and things are almost never a simple either/or choice, and the morality and ethics of a decision is probably going to be grey and will be affected by the situation. There will most likely be some options available to try and save both groups.
@ArticBlueFox96 no. It's not stupid. You missed the entire point of the thought experiment that is the trolley problem. There are lots of situations that are no win scenarios, moral and otherwise, so things like this are good to do because they help us practice what we might do when in one of those situations. To dismiss it as foolish is an act of foolishness
If only they had the budget to separate the saucer section every episode...
I always thought it was weird that there are not other starships stationed at a safe distance from this mock battle to keep ships away and to render aid if an accident occurs. I love Startrek, but it's often a pretty dumb show with logic holes you could drive a gas giant thru.
Dunno if HE is the MOST reckless.. ALL the heroes captains in general seem to be a lil bit reckless anyways...
Seems the Ferengi was acting reckless as was the Feds here EVEN if the Ferengi was trying to play intergalactic alien good Semaritan here by shooting first an hardly or not asking questions an the Feds shoulda released the intergalactic Holonet, whatever, intergalactic space bulletin to all they allies an aquaintances that there's a joint maneuvers scenario going on here so DONT overreact it looks like a fight but everything is okay it's basically realistic training....
Remember we saw both Janeway, Sisko an even Kirk back in the day. All acted pretty reckless a few times themselves too. Half or more of Voyager was reckless actions trying to "do what's right" most the time or trying to get home.
i was the same sort of government employee and i wound up with a NDA
Not reckless. Just a moral absolutist. Sometimes this causes him to make questionable decisions.
Farpoint Picard: “I’m not a family man, Riker. And Starfleet has given me a ship with children aboard”
…”so to hell with Starfleet I’ll show them Ima take every opportunity to get those kiddies killed mwahahahahaha”
In the cold war, the population of the uss america was the first modern society able to have the effect of the ideas of ww3 and the destruction of earth might be an analogous l.
The best analysis I have with your wife relationship with star trek, love and hate and what not, is you love the atmosphere. But hate the conquences of the writing.
Like I'm sure ur aware and I think u covered this before. But the plot fits the narrative of what the writers want in that episode. It's why the flagship of the fleet doesn't have redicilous firepower and etc.
I'm not correcting you. Just making conversation
I think it's been proven over the course of more than 50 years that Kirk was the most reckless captain. After the first two years of TNG, Picard finally grew into the most logical and stable captain of the bunch. If anyone ever wanted to model their behavior after someone, I put Picard at #2, just after Spock.
Guess they forgot that the enterprise could separate the saucer section which they could have at a safer distance with all non military personnel and taken on the enemy vessel but well plot had to happen.
The Fengi would take it as a provocation and attack
Takes time to separate as seen in ST generations. Dumb idea. Ferengi woulda start shooting at the immediately when they would start separating.
Been a while since I watched that episode . Warp a short distance then prep to separate separate coming out of warp return with battle section . I can not remember was the enterprise damaged ?
@@stevedenis8292 arguably that would put the saucer section more at risk and more valuable than the stargazer. Picard didn’t want to give piracy any legs, and the stargazer itself was inherently worthless, the saucer section with civilians would be more valuable, and can be more easily disabled and “become a sitting duck” as mentioned by Wesley in best of both worlds part II.
Like why did they even need these actual training weapons. The computer could easily have handled simulating phaser fire without any changes to the weapon system.
BY THE WAY!...Where the hell was these greatest tactical and strategic minds in the galaxy during the dominion war,didnt hear no one word about them.
Question: Is Picard The Most Reckless Captain In Star Trek?
Answer: Janeway exists, so... no, he's not.
Nope... that'd be sisko followed closely by janeway...
Answer to the title: No, because Janeway exists and on atleast 3 occasions threatened/actually blew up the ship and herself.
Man.. Sometimes the Star Trek writers make dumb episodes, yet at the same time make good episodes.
IRL military training maneuvers like this is conducted within friendly waters surrounded by other naval vessels.
So the logic is, why didn't they conduct this type of training near Earth or other Federation friendly system with a small fleet of Star Fleet ships spectating and operating as guards.
Would it have really been so much work to just plop down some beacons or something broadcasting on all frequencies “what’s up peeps, starfleet here, we doin some dank war games MLG Pro like. So don’t roll up on us, it’s just a game lolz. Peace” or something to that effect in the area? Or had a third ship for observation?
It still amuses me how pathetic the Enterprise D was in battle. Small ships could cause significant damage. The Enterprise E is everything the D could never be.
No
I wonder why people think you hate the fed😏
Naw its Janeway
Lore fails kobayashi maru 101/100 times.
I see the TNG era as naive stagnation due to entitlement of peace. Without truly bloody conflict, man withers and dies.
People would use this same reasoning to justify the invasion of Ukraine, tho.
@@nitehawk86 I have so many things I could potentially say but I think the best thing to ask is: Wanna explain?
One of the key objectives of the Federation is that everyone is entitled to peace. You can argue about if that is a worthwhile objective or not (I think it is). However, if that is their goal, then they should act like it, and that is what Picard does by refusing to abandon anyone.
@@ArticBlueFox96 What good is sleeping in a bed of dreams if the wolves can just kick down the door? What good is a dream if you're not willing to fight, to kill and even to die for it?
I don't think you see general stagnation, just complacency when it comes to fighting. Science, tech, and engineering definitely haven't stagnated. Starfleet just went back to being what they were always meant to be. An exploratory and diplomatic force militarised just enough for defence and the odd bit of peacekeeping. Yes they often become the Federations military but not by design. Their explorers, field scientists, and ambassadors on board research vessels had consistently outshone warships from militaristic enemies so they saw no reason to change that.
The Federation should have used this "golden age" to start a dedicated military. Say a United Federation of Planets Navy. Also made agreements with the Vulcan High Command and the other members who kept their own dedicated militaries to actually send ships to fight with that military when the Federation is under attack. Expecting Starfleet to do it all was not just lazy but unfair to the personnel. Both the ones who were there for the advertised mission but also those who saw the need to be a better fighting force and tried to achieve that in opposition to, or within the constraints of Starfleet's goals.
And when they capture Locutus he says that Picard would never have approved such a mission to risk the ship to rescue one man, ignoring that Picard made a similar decision here.
The stupidity of Picard and Riker at the start of this episode is mind-boggling. They command a ship that carries the equivalent of 250 tsar bombas, just one of which is powerful enough to destroy the entire ship by accident if it detonates too close going by dialogue from Q-Who, plus all those phasers, and you think it's a waste of time to do basic tactical training so you don't accidentally blow yourselves up the first time someone shoots at you? With that attitude, thank god the torpedos don't have any antimatter in them until right before they're fired and thank god there's an android with perfect memory there at all times to constantly remind them that blowing up photon torpedoes in their own faces is a bad idea. That attitude from the captain and first officer of an armed starship is going to get people killed.
Yes tactically may be questionable, but remember in numerous iterations of star trek (TOS, disco, etc) if the captain was willing to accept “tactically acceptable” losses (40 vs 1000), that captain would never earn the loyalty of the rest of their crew and would be a “shet” captain (kinda like how Shaw was initially in Picard). They alluded to this in ST picard that he always had the loyalty of his officers and crew and 7 couldn’t understand it at the beginning.
Why can't the federation just perform drills in its own territory or somewhere that is safe and secure and not some random place where anything dangerous could happen.
So the usa does maneuvers in north america only? Ok nobody very sound analysis!
@@andouille1 I'm pretty sure most people around know what is happening. The USA doesn't go deep into space where it's mostly the everywhere and go in some strange area where you are likely to die if anything happens when going that far away.
@@mrnobody.4069 ask the north koreans how they feel about visually seeing USA/SK doing/did drills not too far away
@@andouille1 you are literally trying to compare the Sea with space.
@@mrnobody.4069 giving you an analogy, and space traditions in star trek are more based on naval traditions than aviation traditions, i.e. hms enterprize, promotion of war on a sail ship, malcolm reed’s background, need i say more??
Unfortunately the torpedo diplay would not totally obliterate the entire Hathaway into non detectible particles...........so the writers also had to make the Ferengi total fools for the episode to work. Typical Trek Writing...........paint yourself into a dark corner and then hang the convenient lantern up to solve the problems lol. This was such a horrible episode. Even the alien being able to beat or hold ground in that game with Data was ridiculous. If he had that kind of mental ability his species would be running the Federation.
Certainly Captain Shaw thinks he is.
He was a great character, but you must consider his ptsd from Wolf 359, much like Sisko. That definitely influenced their opinions on picard.
@@theMadness36 good point. Yes.
I can't believe you are still salty that Janeway saved Nelix and Tuvox. And let the plant die instead of saving the plant and letting the other two die.
She didn’t save them. You can’t save something that is gone. That’s like saying going back in time and grabbing someone that died, is saving them. They were dead. Period. Tuvix was alive. He was aware. He wanted to live. He was a unique sentient being ,
With his own thoughts , by all definitions.
@@jamesbizs and yet, they came back. So they weren't gone. Tuvox was nothing just a combination of two different people thanks to some plant.
How did she save them when all she did was force them to endure more of her madness? I mean, when you think about it, whether they remained as Tuvix or were separated, they were still subject to Janeway's reckless insanity for the next few years regardless. Their personal situation(s) may have changed, but the hell they were forced to endure remained intact.
@@BioGoji-zm5ph #Janewaydidnothingwrong
If it wasn't for Janeway we would have never seen the big D fly through a Cube like a Boss.
I'm pretty sure your not military trained are you. I'm retired law enforcement, US military and security contractor serving in combat zones. I believe you sit in a basement pretending.
I wonder why people think you hate the fed😏