Quick Tip: How To "Time" a Muzzle Device With Shims
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Installing a flash suppressor, muzzle brake, or compensator is usually pretty straightforward. But sometimes you have to "time" the muzzle device, such as when you're installing a flash suppressor on an AR-15. Muzzle devices often have a distinct top and bottom and must be oriented correctly to work properly. For example, the classic A2 flash hider for the AR-15 has open slots on the sides and top, and a solid bottom that prevents kicking up a lot of dust when you're shooting prone. When the device is oriented correctly, it's said to be properly "timed." We know Brownells Gun Tech™ Caleb Savant has impeccable timing, which he exhibits here by showing us how to time a flash hider on an AR-15 using shims. Hint: the Brownells Master AR-15 Shim Kit is a big help in this process.
Clamp the upper receiver securely in your bench vise, using an upper receiver vise block. Screw the flash hider onto the muzzle until it's slightly snug. How far off is its orientation? UNSCREW it until you have it oriented the way it should be. We'll be adding just enough shims behind it so that when we torque the muzzle device tight, it'll end up in that correct orientation. You can get out the feeler gauges and measure the gap precisely.... or you can test-fit shims from the kit until you find the right combo to fill the gap. You may need to stack multiple shims, or maybe you'll get lucky and find one shim that does the job.
When you have the right shim combo, the top of the device should be a bit off the 12 o'clock position (maybe 10 o'clock), so that when you torque it tight, it'll end up where you want it. If you're so far off the 12 o'clock mark that you'd have to really whale on the wrench to get the muzzle device torqued, get a thinner shim. (That's why the Brownells shim kit is so handy!)
If the muzzle device also serves as a suppressor mount, you'll probably have to secure it with a heat-resistant thread-locker such as Rocksett. But don't apply the Rocksett to the threads until you're sure you have the muzzle device perfectly shimmed up to 12 o'clock! After installation, wait 24 hours for the Rocksett to fully cure.
This is not the only way to do it, this is just how I do it. If you have another way that works better for you, then keep on keepin on! I just wanted to share this in the hopes it will help a handful of y'all out there.
This will work nice.
I guess you have fastened a muzzle device before,or maybe a couple😉
Possible more than a couple 😆
Thanks for the quick tip👍
I have a Ase Utra brake with supressor mount on my carbine..and off course supressor to go with it..
Or carbine,supressor and the brake/ supressor mount to go with it..
It depends on how you look at it😉
It.
I just fastened it with torque 50 ish Newton meter or something.. i do not exactly remember.
It was the manufacturers specifications and recommendations/in the "user manual" for that brake/mounting system,so i went with what it said..
My brain said "Rock set" or Loctite it down.. 😆
It's still in the right position after lots of rounds through it though..
Anyhow..I like these Quick tip videos!
It brings me lots of knowhow😊
Keep up the good work 👍
The Videos on the Website is not reachable from outside US..visitors will be redirected on the local sites...without videos....
Now that’s some big-braining right there.
Can use use shims and crush washes together.
I'm just curious, but why not a crush washer?
Your demonstration of blowing on the degreaser is an excellent example of your "dry" sense of humor!
I like the Surefire method of timing. Basically, you add shims until you are so many degrees off at hand tightening. Theyve created a diagram wheel so you match up the color of the shims youre using and then once you find a combination that matches the diagram wheel, you then torque the brake until it reaches "center". It does take some trial and error but it works great. This was pretty good too though, I just wanted to share.
Doesn’t using a upper vise block put torque on the barrel index pin when doing muzzle work? I heard you should use a barrel vise over an upper vise block or reaction rod because of the torque on the pin?
That's a smythbuster video in the works.
@@CalebSavant yay more videos
As a first time builder this was very helpful as I prepare to change my muzzle on my build.
do you reuse shims once they have been "tried on for size" or do you toss shims that have seen some TQ applied in finding the rite size?
Reuse
So how do you use Rocksett after the fact? I ask as I have a BRN-180 10.5” 7.62x39. Attached Cherry Bomb brake without checking concentricity with the Thunder Chicken suppressor and promptly took a chunk out of the suppressor. So, before I do this again, I’d like to check concentricity before applying the Rocksett. Thanks.
Am I only just now noticing the AT4 chilling in the safe?
I've had great success using the TPI to calculate the needed shim. Effectively no guess work and gets it right almost every time.
I was going to say... "if you REALLY want to "big brain" it, try some math". I'm with you. I'm lazy.😜
What's the TPI?
@@jasontm91 Threads/Turns/Twists per inch. E.g. 28 TPI means each turn is 1000/28 = 35.7 mil. So if you are over by 1/4 turn, you'd add shims for 35.7/4 = 8.9 mil (rounding to 10mil) to make it end up where you want it.
Some companies that make a barrel and muzzle device can, with conscientious CNC programming techniques, turn the muzzle thread and device thread in a nearly perfect clocking to each other when torqued.
Damn ti Caleb!!! Half the shit you show us from Brownells is out of stock! I would love this shin kit!
Take your stuff off before the video
Can we get a coffee mug with Steve and Caleb on it?
Not made in China would be a nice touch.
So I’ve been paying my smith $35 to rocksette and shim/time my muzzle devices… should I just do it myself? I just figured I’d play it safe when it came to bore alignment and suppressor use so I figured I’d have a pro do it. But this doesn’t look that difficult
Ideally you'd get a Geissele suppressor alignment rod. I just ordert one for 223 and 308. They cost a lot for what they are, but I can't be bothered anymore to go to the smith everytime I want to switch up my suppressors and hosts or switch out a gas block or whatever. Same goes for torque wrenches, I finally bought a small one for scope mounts and a big one for barrel nuts, muzzle devices etc. along with a Geissele reaction rod too. Now I can do most of the work at home myself... until I need specific punches for everything^^
Great to the point video. I am getting ready to swap out all my muzzle devices for dead air flash hiders. Going to use accu-washers for timing them though. I am most excited to remove a pinned and welded M4-72 muzzle brake and put a flash hider on it. It was my first muzzle brake and man does it shoot flat, but I am sick of how aggressive the flash is back towards me and the firing line, it’s like a flash bang if you are off to the side of it lol.
Yooo KAC 3 prong for the win! Only flash hider to use, I always keep a few of these around
Thank you for not doing it perfect the first time. To show real life situation.
Be honest, you left the DBAL because you didn't want to rezero it
Wouldn't removing a muzzle device after zeroing cause you to rezero anyway
@@ForthcomingTruth no?
@@ForthcomingTruthI'm fairly sure high quality muzzle devices shouldn't have a poi shift
One note on Rocksett. When wet, even a drop of Rocksett will act like a lubricant and your device will time a little past where it was dry at a given torque setting. There are several ways to deal with this, but I've found the easiest is to make sure you dry fit north of the middle of the torque range so when you time with Rocksett you'll still be above minimum torque.
Finally someone addresses this! I'm having the same problem. I'm trying to time a SF Warcomp. When I time it dry it goes to 6 o'clock at 30 ftlb and then I apply Rocksett and it goes past 6 with less than 20!
It's frustrating. Is it ok if I leave it to dry first or does it have to be still wet when torquing?
28 threads per inch, so each rotation is 1/28th of an inch. (0.0357")
3/4 of one rotation needed.
0.75 revolutions x 0.0357 inches per revolution = 0.0268"
Now account for torque and the change in torque caused by the rockset lubricating before it cures.
@@CalebSavant I'm curious how my calculation compared to the thickness of the actual shims you used in your video. Does the box of shims provide thickness dimensions for each?
Exactly, the hard part isn't getting it timed, it's getting it timed with torque.@@CalebSavant
How can you measure the torque you’re putting on the muzzle device?
Armorers wrench with a cut out for a torque wrench
😒 I just guessed and then cemented in place with locktite, I did go all the way till the muzzle piece bottomed out and then clocked the very next top dead center while backing/loosening the muzzle piece. Once satisfied, I glazed the thread seam with more locktite. I don't run guns like a marathon, so idk how permanent this is. Thanks for the video
Thank you for sharing this important video on shimming. Very informative! Question; can you over tighten a muzzle device on a barrel?
The reason I ask is because I changed out a muzzle device using a crush washer and tightened it down pretty good to achieve the timing I wanted. Hopefully I didn't over tighten the muzzle device.
Hey briwnalls question do I have to use rockset on a warcomp if it’s just a range gun
Great video. Thanks, Caleb.
Something as simple as screwing something on is somehow complicated
Glad you posted this... I love deadair cans but their shims are awful. You have an advantage with the barrel and device you have here as thru are of similar diameters.. I ended up going through 3 different shims kits before I found one that would work..
I always use a splined chamber wrench when instaling anything on the muzzle.
I've really come to love your quick tips videos. Always learn something.
so ya want a open path for the blast to come up an bath you 1500 optic ,
Personally I would have put the pin on the bottom so the flash would be directed at the 6, 10, and 2 o'clock positions. I understand it won't matter much with a suppressor but in the chance one was not installed while firing in a low light or night time scenario the shooter will get blinded by the flash, ask me how I know. Just my 2 cents, in not much of an ar guy myself but I do have one and have assembled a few. Keep up the good work guys.
#1 he was not using a muzzle device that needed to be timed. I believe the point he was using the pin to represent a muzzle device that needed timing. he had stated all this up front and he would not be keeping the device on that weapon. just saying.
Can you show us the NLAW in the safe?
Mine used a wedge nut system, so no shims needed.
Is Rockset really necessary? I’ve never used it for the barrel because I am constantly removing them. A properly torqued down ASR mount shouldn’t ever come loose. However, I figured I would just check it before each session at the range.
For example, had to remove the barrel end because…
1) I wanted to ultra sonic clean my adjustable gas block
2) I bought a silencer, so put on ASR mount flash hider on rifle
3) I migrated ASR mount flash hider to use with newly built AR pistol
4) I switched pistol to ASR single port muzzle break to shorten length
5) I moved ASR back to rifle
etc., etc.,
Bottom line had i used rockset i would have had a hard time of it. And that just for 1 of 6 rifles. I went through similar changes with all of them. 😮
Hahahaahahaha. Great video, I'm not laughing about the video, per se. I was looking for the name of upper receiver block, so I was just stabbing in the dark around that area in the video. As I hit play on those 3-4 consectutive bits, in every single one, Caleb was saying "Ok". Hilarious accident of timing..."Ok...", "Ok...", "Ok...". ;)
Is that an at-4 in your gun safe?
What about the barrel extension rod how does that work? If I wanted to take my Surefire 3 prong off my sr15 and put my MAMS or KAC flash hider on someone said I’d have to take my bolt out and stick that “rod like” barrel extension wrench in through the the back of the receiver and hold that with a vise then remove then remove the muzzle device. Can anybody help clarify?
Do most muzzle devices come with instructions on how to install them properly? I prefer an A2 flash suppressor over a A1 style or a muzzle brake. Its what was on my M16A2 I had in the Marine Corps & what I have on my 1986 Colt AR15 rifle.
I have a galil 308 gen 2. Do you recommend jam nut on the huxwrx muzzle device for my supressor? Galil barrel shoulder is too thin to use shims. What do you recommend?
Question would this method be good for silver soldering? I have 14.5 upper that I been bouncing around with either permanently attaching or getting a free tax stamp…. I put off the free tax stamp and I can’t do that now
Precision Armament accu-washers are the way to go.
The washers and system are of outstanding quality, but not perfect. They only time at 20 degree intervals and that's not nearly enough sometimes. My PA M11 muzzle brake stops with exactly a 10 degree tilt, which makes it impossible to time without using a shim or crush washer in order to get the muzzle brake level. Just passing along in case it helps anyone, not at all unhappy with the end result.
@ArkansasBadBoy idk about your setup, but my every one of my guns is timed perfectly at 12:00. It takes a few tries. I always go back and forth to break in threads to get the most out of the torque. There is no set torque, so 5 ft-lbs more or less isn't going to hurt anything. Sounds like you tightened it to whatever and it wasn't in line and you gave up. Takes a bit more effort than that my friend.
@@2A.Freedom each situation is different and rest assured, I more than know what I am doing as I've installed these for years. Glad yours worked out.
@ArkansasBadBoy i agree, each situation is different. I don't agree that it's impossible. It may not work for *you* and that's fine, you are under no obligation to comment. It's a great product I've used for years on dozens of builds with zero issues.
How bout that AT4 in the safe?
Ok all muzzles must be different because the directions for my muzzle says wrench flats 12 and 6 alock
rocksett isn't as scary I thought. literal submerge it in hot water (like hot coffee hot, not shower hot) for a few minutes will loosen it up. Accuwasher typically sends you a little sample amount when you order a pack.
I feel like Steve is being left out of these videos demonstrating how to accessorize your firearms. I mean, Steve definitely could have blown on the threads to dry them off.
so, trial and error. got it.
Are all muzzle different because my muzzle says put the wrench flats at 12 and 6 alock
How much ,,, I love it
My little firearm is a freedom arms with a 1" bbl 22mag/22lr
Imagine installing and reinstalling the flash-hider with shims to replicate a tuner brake. Searching for the proper dimension that creates a barrel harmonics node.
When you say a little RocSet, you mean douse it until it’s dripping right?
RUclips hiding Brownell's videos from me
Good timing! I need to mount a Surefire suppressor mount.
Heh
And for the rest of us, there are crush washers.
I would not use a crush washer if I plan on using a silencer on the muzzle device.
Badass carbine setup
Why not use a crush washer, seems easier
If you’re shooting supressed, a crush washer that’s not evenly compressed can throw off the alignment of the can and cause a baffle strike or end cap strike.
My question is if your using the shims do you need a guide rod ?
What make model is that light setup? Thanks.
you should have done it with torque wrench
The attachments are worth more than the rifle.
What is the armorer’s wrench you use in this video?
I appreciate all your videos and info. Question: Can an A2 style flash hider be timed to reduce muzzle rise? I know you may lose the dirt signature feature somewhat. Has anyone had experience doing this? Thanks
Yes. The solid portion should always face downward.
Love the quick tips! Keep’em coming!
Pipe wrench, flat blade screw driver and crush washer; it’s not pretty but that’s how I’ve seen it done.
I gotta get me some of those fancy tools.
Don’t want to use a crush washer with a suppressor. Could cause baffle strike.
is it just me or is the ak just better in that arena? I mean with the spring loaded pin coming out its super easy to have your muzzle device lined up
It is until you want to mount a suppressor.
this is why flash hiders > brakes
Why Rockset?
Why not a crush washer?
Please explain. Thank you.
In this case, it's a QD flash hider for attaching a KAC suppressor. Crush washers aren't meant for suppressors since they're likely to cause baffle strikes.
Crush washers often allow the muzzle device to not be perfectly concentric to the bore, which does not matter on a standard muzzle device, but when it is going to be used for suppressor mounting it could cause the suppressor to be misaligned and get damaged by the bullet striking a baffle. Shims are used as they keep the muzzle device squared with the shoulder
@cordyzank3625 thank you
@anthoselongstride8309 thank you
Rocksett because it is a heat resistant adhesive (a silencer on a semi auto rifle can get very hot), but soluble in water (so if you want to remove your muzzle device you use boiling water). If you don't want to use a silencer, you don't need Rocksett.
Go easy with the Rocksett fellas...
I love this build ! Do you have a parts list video? Also what armorer tool is that you used to take off the muzzle device? I didn’t see it listed in description.
Midwest Industries, we'll cover the rifle in a video.
Caleb! Thanks for showing that technique on how to dry off the degreaser by blowing on it! Great visual. ;) Seriously though thank you for the video! Love you guys!
Is that an at4 in the case???
Great video, thanks! My Surefire muzzle device has torque specifications. How important is it to use a torque wrench get the device tightened within those specs?
No more than 15 ft.lbs
Very important.
24 TPI all you need
Great tips, Thanks!
Timing or indexing?
Are these shims nothing more than washers?
Shims are perfectly flat, your average hardware store washer is not made to the sane standard.
I've used shims. Crush washers are a little easier.
You'll want shims for assurance of repeatability with muzzle devices that will mount suppressors. A standalone muzzle device can use crush washers if needed.
.030"?
thank you
No crush washer?
Not if you’re shimming it for a suppressor. The crush washer is a spring and allows movement which can cause a round to impact your suppressor.
Most of the time I get a crush washer that fits close enough and file it down just enough to get a tight fit, I switch from a2 hider to direct thread silencer so I don't need it to be "permanent"
So you like to add in additional unnecessary work of filing down a crush washer vs shims? LOL.
I've never used Rocksett on any suppressor mounting device. I've never had them walk off or get loose. Plus I don't want to have to end up cutting a muzzle if I can't get it off from the Rocksett
Bro put a KAC flash hider on a mediocre AR. Trying to be cool except your not.
For a permanent application shimmy shimmy go go bop!.... Gonna remove and replace original or another I use a lock nut or crush washer.
Also Caleb..... how was that again to help get the degreaser to dry faster? 😂
Find someone with a lathe and take the difference off the back of the brake. No shims needed
What if you have a crushed washer and your transferring from a A2 Birdcage to a YHM Phantom Flash Hider? How do you time that?
Yhm phantom times with the closed section of the ports facing 6 o'clock.
To install, remove the old device, clean and dry the threads. Now put the new crush washer on with the cup side facing forward. Apply a dab of anti-seize compound. Screw the phantom on with your fingers until it stops. Finish by using the proper sized wrench to get the closed section to 6 o'clock.
This video was essential for me today. The Surefire directions for timing a muzzle device are really bad. Thanks Caleb!!!!
Caleb is such a noobie. Which is why he was only allowed to grease the guns of real soldier. He’s a con artist with stolen valor.
Why not just use a crush washer??
Old Colt AR's used shims instead of crush washers, which is a detail to collectors, retro builders, and restoration. Some of the better made uppers tend to use shims. Its a craftsmanship point.
For suppressor mounting purposes. You use shins. They allow the bore and muzzle device to be aligned. Or close as possible to prevent a baffle strike.
⏰⏰⏰ why on Earth are you calling this timing? timing is something that moves. what you're doing is indexing. ☝☝☝
Timing.. the top is 12 O'clock, right is 3, bottom is 6... etc. You get it.
@@CalebSavant Nope😏
In the gun world, "timing" is just the phrase that is used. It originated due to battlefield repairs. As in numbers on a clock. It was just a simple way to reference where to start applying torque and when to stop as soldiers in the battle field didn't and usually aren't going to carry around a torque wrench because adding the extra weight(no matter how small that weight is) would just be a ridiculous thing to carry around. So, it was easier to guage it terms of "start here on the where the hand of a clock is and end here where the hand of a clock is"
@@natew.-victoryorvalhalla4571 😂Mr W, your explanation is entirely plausible. I'm trying to understand, under what circumstances do infantry men in the first world war have to change their muzzle device anyway? wouldn't it just be easier to tell him to "index" it towards the top of the rifle. I guess I can't fight tradition (or city hall), but I will stand by my original statement, in fact you are indexing your muzzle device. thank you for your explanation..
@AsdfAsdf-asdf This actually came in to more common usage/terminology during the Vietnam War and the introduction of the M16. As they were working out the kinks, playing around with what became known as a "dissipator" rifle (basically take a full size m16 and cut the barrel down with a hacksaw to the M4 size which had so many problems and is a whole other story) The extreme humidity and rain was rough on the barrels and combine that with their tinkering and sorting out the initial glitches etc. Common practice taught was to "time" your attachment of a muzzle device starting somewhere between 1800-2100 hrs and finish at the 1200 hrs (start 6-9 end 1200) which also didn't make sense because they mixed up AM'S and PM'S in the description but they were in the middle of war so it was just an easy way to explain it. And so "timing your muzzle device" was born into a more common vernacular
So just what would you do when the current administration bans the AR platform and folks won't legally have them anymore?
I'm being sarcastic... I'm thankful for your quick shows.
V/r Bob