It seems the Bach, Musician and Denifrips preamps are all made in the same factory. A comparison would be interesting if there are sound differences or just rebadging.
Very interested, however: WHY can't a microprocessor controlled volume control be setup with a BALANCE CONTROL feature?? Those of us with asymmetric hearing or room layouts are waiting for this feature! Maybe add the BALANCE CONTROL feature to the $50 remote control option? 🎵🎶🎶😮🎶🎵 PS Please review the MUSICAL PARADISE MP701mk2 the and capacitor rolling preamp. Loving mine! Looking for a neutral ss balanced pre for the balanced output of my Ares 12th. Seems I'm only using half of the Denafrips?
Suggestion - I love to understand the difference between choosing preamps that are "full function-no sound change", or like this Class A, or a Tube preamp like the Musical Fidenlity - Schiit Freya. Also the difference between a passive or active preamp and a preamp vs linestage with gain. I think you can make a whole video just chatting about the different purposes and approach to match with gear.
Thanks for the update. Agree we need a remote in 2023. It’s not that I’m lazy. I just like to get comfortable when I’m seriously listening to music and a preamp remote adds to my comfort. Need to make changes and adjustments as needed between songs without breaking the mood in my listening room.
Seems like the Topping Pre 90 would be a better comparison but I'd really like to know about the Aune S-17 Pro as a speaker preamp. I've heard the class A warmth that everyone loves in the headphone amp does come through when used as a speaker preamp but would love to know your opinion especially as compared to the Ladder Bach.
In reference to "decay", after a couple of years observing the audio scene after several decades of ignoring it, I've learned, along with a growing number of people, that the time element is just as important to satisfying hi fi as is tone.
Agree. It's a show of temporal resolution and low level deteil retrieval that makes sound more lifelike, less dry, and less tiring. However, it's not easily achieved and newcomers will probably think of it as just another audiophile mumbo jumbo.
Thanks for the updated review. Can you confirm if the remote can dim the display at all. I read somewhere it is possible but can’t see a way to do it from pictures of the remote. Thanks again
I bought this model with a remote, for what it’s worth and for me it has paired well with a Hypex Nilai power. Very happy with the performance, might even finally stop upgrading my hifi hardware. Maybe.
@@Wharariki how’s your experience been with Nilai? I looking getting one however my speakers are efficient rated at 90 DB at 50W not sure how good Nilai will sound at low power
@@Abhidadhia078 my Focal Sopras are 89-90db/1watt/1metre and drop down to 4 ohms, drives them very well. Not quite sure what you refer by 90db at 50 watts. If you see the AVS review they rate the distortion best on the low gain setting (low, medium, high options) , so if you have very efficient speakers you could use that setting.
I run mine with a Ladder Schumann, 2 McIntosh Mc7100's in a vertically bi-amped configuration playing brand new Tannoy Cheviot. Yes, I have a remote. I think its a great non tube preamp.
I currently use an SMSL-SU9n for my DAC. I have a Parasound 200 Integrated amp that is being used as a preamp for my Parasound A23+ amp. If i get the Ladder Bach will I also have to upgrade my DAC?
Wonderful review and keep up the good job. You reviews are very informative. I would like to get one but I am no sure if Schenzen Audio is reliable as there have been so many bad reviews. Does anyone have any feedback from Schenzen?
I bought the S.M.S.L. SU-1 from them in November 2023 and the Topping A70Pro from them in March 2024. They took two or three weeks to get to me (Colorado, US) which is expected when it's coming from China. Everything was well packaged, but I do fear things not working on arrival when it's coming from overseas. My SU-1 is still working 7 months later, and my preamp has worked fine these past several weeks.
I can't help but note that pre-amp looks a lot like the Denafrips line of pre-amps - Hades for example, especially the display screen. Even the aluminum remote is Denafrips like. I don't know, but it definitely looks a rebadged Denafrips Pre-amp with some "slight" cometic changes - knobs here are flatter where Denafrips are near half-moons. I don't know, maybe it's me.
@iiWIReviews Thank you for excellent review and content. Does usage of such Ladder Bach pre-amp improve sound, as compared to feeding a good DAC with variable volume ( such as R26 ) directly into the amp ?
Really appreciate not only your reviews but the music you feature that has turned me onto new music that I love. I have a couple suggestions for you. Check out anything from Hadouk Trio. Also, check out an album called Douo by Bertrand Renaudin and Oliver Cahours.
@@shaunyweaver1144 So a dedicated preamp such as Ladder Bach is outperformed by a headamp with a preamp function? Sounds like you get 2 FULL-fledged products when you buy an Aune S17 Pro. If that is true, it is simply amazing amazing value and one of the best products ever perhaps. Minus the heating and volume control issues I've read about on Headfi.
Hello, Thanks for your honest updates. As I can not audition the product like yo take your help on it. I have a Dali Opticon 6 and driving it via Emotiva XPA2. Can you suggest, if I use Ladder Bach as pre to my analog sources and power is via XPA 2 to Dali will I get the nice sound stage? My preference in sound will be mostly vocals with nice drums and big low end ( bass heavy ). I listen a lot of piano and violin as well, kinda all round. I felt Dali + Emotiva is not giving enough low end ( but could be source too ), wanted to add a pre to have the warm side on it. I use CXNV2 as a Dac for your reference. Thanks in advance!!
Well, I would skip the Ladder Bach and go with a Schiit Freya S or their new Kara. I had the Denafrips Hades, which is darn near identical to this LB. And I still own my Emotiva XPA2, which I did use with my Denafrips and the Schiit Freya S, which I wish I never would have sold. The XPA2 and the Schiit were a good match. The Hades came off as rather veiled, almost muddy. Another good one, and my favorite right now, is the PS Audio Stellar Gaincell DAC/Preamp. They can be found on the used market for around that $800. This is a very clean sounding Class A biased preamp with a fantastic DAC that is not fatiguing in the least. What are you using for a DAC?
@@michaelwright1602 thanks for your reply and expecting another communication with you. Well I made a choice of going towards Rotel 1572MK ll as preamplifier. I am driving my Dalis via Marantz SR6015 DAC (Spotify / Tidal) to 1572MKII to XPA2 via XLR. I much say the sound stage and doubled and detailed a lot. I could not audition Freya so went to 1572 that had a lot of reputations. I was planning to introduce CXN V2 or newer as DAC. Any thoughts will be welcome hugely!
@@SoumyaMaitra2008 I owned the CXN V2 and really liked the sound out of the DAC. If you do purchase, one thing to warn you about, when using the XLR outputs to your Rotel, do not use the vacant RCA outputs on the CXN V2 to run other gear like subwoofers. Doing that will cause the volume of the CXN V2 to spike, and I mean blow a speaker SPIKE. Use the outputs on the Rotel for the subs, which I am assuming you will do, just a heads up if you get tempted with those those RCA connections on the CXN V2 when using the XLR outputs. Use one or the other, do not use both, even though Cambridge says you can. What I did not care for on the CXN V2 was the streaming side, it worked of course, but did not give me the flexibility of say the WiiM Pro. But, I think you will enjoy the internal DAC of the Cambridge over the Marantz. Hope this helps. And I would recommend the CXN V2, especially now with the newer version that is out. Find a nice gently used one and save a few quid. ;-)
Many thanks for this update. Personally, I don't care about the remote, but I agree that it probably should have been released with one. But the company has listened, they have addressed the matter and I respect that. I am now seriously considering this piece for my system. I am currently using a Singxer SA-1 as a preamp and it is working very well. But I always wondered if I was missing something by using a headamp in this capacity. Seems my suspicions were correct. Thanks again for your great work.
From your experience, does driving both pairs of outputs degrade the sound or mess with the balanced signal? From what I've gathered, the outputs on this are not independently buffered.
Thanks! The A90D has some significant problems (judging by some measurements), so I would be much more interested in comparing it with the A70 Pro (which you also had in your review, and which has the most perfect measurements that I have ever seen), or at least with the L70 (which also does not have any technical problems), or at least with the Pre90 (which, judging by measurements, is close to the L70, although noticeably inferior in crosstalk).
Love the Bass Room record. Notably the musician is named Princip and shares his name with the Serb who shot Arch Duke Ferdinand and started WWI. No relation I'm sure.
My ladder Schumann works with remote from unison Research Simply Italy and Preludio, some functions I could on and off. Maybe this remote also can work with Schumann🤔
Tone defeat usually bypasses tone controls, but current buffering remains (it doesn't switch to passive attenuation that has problems on its own). This preamp, like most modern models, don't have tone controls at all so it's basically in tone defeat mode by default.
@@iiWiReviews Ok then. Thought that my current setup lean to neutral detailed sonic in a nearfield setup, if were to tame some high frequency harshness at higher volume, would you think this preamp will work, between is it zero noise at surgeon level if I plug in this preamp? Currently I'm not really looking for upgrade, but just different sound at different mood at different time :P
Looks like the Denafrips Hestia/Hades... So does the remote. Made in the same factory? My Hades, which I sold off, and their Athena too, sounded rather veiled, no dynamics with hard to drive speakers. And it was not much better with sensitive speakers, though an improvement. If the LB is anything like the Denafrips, I would pass.
@@iiWiReviews thanks a lot! I have a balanced turntable with MC cartridge and a pro-ject phono box, maybe I can use this Ladder Bach as a "volume hub" for both my digital and analog sources... the phono box does not comes with a volume knob but just like 5 different gain level, If I connect it to this preamp via XLR I'm sure I'll get a much more precise volume control.. considering this have 2 XLR inputs I have space for both my Dac and my turntable/phonobox. what do you think? and thanks again for your great reviews, I've already bought quite a few things thanks to your suggestions (via your links) :) ciao from Italy!
Well, after being tempted by the 'Bach and Musician Monoceros i decided to stick with DENAFRIPS. It seemed to me that the alternative models are just a way around the "grey market" for Denafrips models. The Monoceros does have less power supply components, so a slightly different circuit design....Nevertheless Vinshine Audio has a great customer service reputation and 3year warranty with service available in the USA. I also have an Ares2 and Ares12th and wanted to use the balanced output jacks to drive a Bryston amp fully balanced. The slightly updated Hestia12th arrived this month. I'm very happy with the clear expressive and slightly warm presentation. Hall Acoustics seem well preserved and natural. Anyone wanting a tube preamp should However consider the Musical Paradise MP701mk2 ! That is if you're wanting to tinker with sonic presentation😊 Im keeping BOTH. Freya-Schmeya! 🎶😅🎶 PS That chunky metal remote also works with my Marantz and Musical Fidelity Phillips based CD players. So all those extra buttons aren't wasted!
Hello Srboljub, what battery the remote control uses? I received a remote control and pre amp without any documentation. I don't know if is a vendor's mistake or manufacture. Thak you for your help and support. Yashin
I bought one of these over a month ago. It sounds great but I've experienced a minor issue and wanted to ask if anyone else has experienced it with the ladder bach, or another R2R pre-amp. Occasionally, the volume clicks up or down 1 step completely on its own after I adjust the volume (up if the volume was increased, down if decreased), which might happen after just a few minutes, or several hours later. I messaged Shenzhen about it, and they said their engineers were trying to reproduce the issue on their end, but haven't heard anything back since. Because the pre-amp seems to be working fine otherwise, I haven't pressed the issue further. Has anyone else experienced something similar? Does anyone with more expertise have an idea about the root cause of this issue? Does it indicate a serious problem, or is this normal for R2R pre-amps?
Hi. I haven't experienced that with my unit but I belive I saw something similar on a headphone amp once. I never gave it much tought since that volume step is so small that it doesn't really change much if it clicks. I have some OCD-leaning friends that would be bothered by it, but if it doesn't cause any bigger issues I'm just not. As far as engineers trying to reproduce your problem... These things can truly be difficult to reproduce for warranty claim. I'm speakings with some experience here since I used to work at maintenance and repair lab for few years. But back to HiFi, for example, my friend had some problems with Hegel amp having hickups with display at his home, but when I bought it from him (that same unit) it never had them at my place. Later we found out Hegel internal electronics is sensitive to DC component in the power distribution network. The only way for him to solve it was to use DC blocker on the power line. I never needed it in my place. Because of all this I avoid pulling the warranty card unless problem is of a certain magnitude that it presents a problem for me. But that threshold is personal thing I suppose.
@@iiWiReviews Thank you for clarifying. I did pop the hood on the bach a week ago and took a quick look at the board under a magnifier. Visually, there didn't appear to be any poor soldering joints or shorted legs, so perhaps time will reveal whether there further attention is needed. I suspect it may just be an issue with the IR remote, because I've noticed some quirks with its transmission on-axis vs off-axis from the receiver. I also see that iFi sells a DC offset filter for IEC plugs, so maybe I'll try one out. I do have several wall-wart powered devices in my chain.
Srboljub, you seem to be the primary reviewer for Ladder products. Did you ever get a manual for the Schumann DAC? I ordered mine last year, based mostly on your review. Mine came in a generic plain brown box with no manual or manufacturer information. You did say that your copy did not come with a manual. I was hoping one would be available at a later date. Do you plan on reviewing the Ladder Boya DDC? I'd like to upgrade from the $60 Douk DDC that I am currently using but I don't want to buy another device that does not have manual. And, I need to know if the I2S output on the Boya is configurable. Thanks. I use the Douk DDC to clean up the USB output from my source. However I can't use the I2S output from the DDC because the left and right channels are swapped compared to the I2S input on the Schumann, so I am using the optical input instead. That is why I am considering an upgrade to the Boya.
Hi Keith, I didn't have a chance to try Boya but it's safe to say that it is internally the same device as Denafrips Iris and Musician Pisces... So if you can find any info about any of these it should be the same. BTW, I'm getting my Ladder devices from the ShenzhenAudio online shop and I have no direct contact to anyone at Ladder. I checked some 6 months after the release of the Schuman DAC there was no manual. Bach arrived in a plane brown box without a manual too and as you can see it was launched without a remote. It feels like there's a serious lack of organisation and that final touch. I hope they'll get their stuff together quickly because products appear to be top notch, both in terms of build and sound quality.
hahaha, you nailed it realy,...."and it works",..totaly agree, somhove doesn't fit into my had how this is even being sold without remote option, but what ever, Thx for the review I can shorlist now this one as well and come back to oreginal review
Hi, I hope you are well. I would love some advice if you would be so kind? I am considering buying the ladder preamplifier and dac. Would you think this combination would be a good accompaniment for line magnetic 2161a kt88 amp? Thanks for your kind consideration.
DAC and preamp are a good match between each other in my opinion. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with that amplifier and how would it click with these two.
Give Audio GD a look, their R28 DAC/Preamp. I would also highly recommend the PS Audio Stellar Gaincell DAC. They are available on the used market for around $800. I have mine paired with a Cayin EL-84 tube amp running Zu DW6 Supreme speakers. My buddy has the Audio GD R28 and swears by it. He also owns the Gaincell. I know the PS Audio unit and tubes play extremely well together. I am not sure how an R2R DAC will sound, as I had the Denafrips Ares II and their Venus II 12th. The PS Audio unit replaced both, as I found the R2R DACs veiled and not as detailed as the PS Audio. What I found interesting about the PS Audio, is that it is an ESS based chip DAC, and I have a tough time with these chip based DACs, fatigue sets in quickly. The reason I went R2R... The PS Audio Gaincell has a Class A bias, and does not sound sterile or digital say like a Topping or SMSL can. It has a very Class A sound to it, big soundstage, instrument separation, clean dynamics, just overall it does everything right. Amir and his crew trashed it, I look at that as a badge of honor. ;-)
@@michaelwright1602 Thanks so much for the suggestions! I will investigate - presently residing in China - hence my interest in the Ladder products! Take care and best wishes,
Thanks for the video. Do you ever do higher-end stuff? I would like to see preamps below $5000 or $3000 Like Hegel P20 or P30 or even the Denafrips Athena. Interested in knowing what you get for all that extra money sound wise and what % improvements you hear. Thanks.
I'll soon review an Acoustic Invader Fulcrum preamp that is €6300 and that I purchased a year ago. I didn't review it sooner because I didn't have a good and well known reference to compare it too. But recently I had a chance to listen the EAR 868 next to it so it will make for an interesting video I belive.
Now everyone will say "But Srboljub you didn't compare it to to Aune S17 pro as a pre-amp" we want to know about that. The remote looks serious, you could use it against burglars trying to steal your gear.
if you play with more headphone amps I think you will find that a headphone amp makes a better preamp than most active preamps; especially driving long cables and in general to lessen the sonic differences of different cables. I would go so far as to say that if a particular headphone amp sounds bad as a preamp, its a bad headphone amp.
As soon as these become…obsolete ? Which is probably 6months or a year ? Or by the time next great pre amp comes out , or the next video ? I’ll get one and hear for myself…. As you can see balance is becoming more relevant in home systems. I work in the field and RCAs are nonexistent ! For many reasons , secure contact, noise reduction, and one of the most obvious is levels . 10db-unbalanced 4db+Balanced ! That alone will give you a truer idea of what’s going on with the signal? The main reason in professional environment is length of cables and noise reduction over long runs. You won’t have that problem in the home? But you will have the benefit of a higher cleaner signal! Most pro devices are made this way and now more home? Devices are using them cause they know the benefits. And people outside of pro audio are not on deck with big industrial connections! Sticking out the back of their equipment . So for the home and the market RCAs became the norm ? And the expense of designing true balanced for the home ? What is normal for the pro industry…is high end ? for home use…
I can not stand its distracting clicking noise. I will not take it unless is a gift, because is producing such a HORRIBLE clicking noise on every volume adjusting. I would try to place the PCB board on some dumping spacers to reduce the noise transfer to the chassis and even then probably sell it or give to some one else.
Always enjoy your vids.
Interesting update. What is the best power amp match for Ladder Bach you have heard?
It seems the Bach, Musician and Denifrips preamps are all made in the same factory. A comparison would be interesting if there are sound differences or just rebadging.
Hestia. But those are sold as class a pre-amps. Not r2r. Also musician has a different Body shape.
Add the topping Pre90 and Schitt Freya that would be an interesting comparison
@@andrewmccorkell652 Topping Pre90 and Schitt Freya are a level below this company.
Very interested, however:
WHY can't a microprocessor controlled volume control be setup with a BALANCE CONTROL feature??
Those of us with asymmetric hearing or room layouts are waiting for this feature!
Maybe add the BALANCE CONTROL feature to the $50 remote control option?
🎵🎶🎶😮🎶🎵
PS
Please review the MUSICAL PARADISE MP701mk2 the and capacitor rolling preamp.
Loving mine!
Looking for a neutral ss balanced pre for the balanced output of my Ares 12th. Seems I'm only using half of the Denafrips?
Suggestion - I love to understand the difference between choosing preamps that are "full function-no sound change", or like this Class A, or a Tube preamp like the Musical Fidenlity - Schiit Freya. Also the difference between a passive or active preamp and a preamp vs linestage with gain. I think you can make a whole video just chatting about the different purposes and approach to match with gear.
Thanks for the update. Agree we need a remote in 2023. It’s not that I’m lazy. I just like to get comfortable when I’m seriously listening to music and a preamp remote adds to my comfort. Need to make changes and adjustments as needed between songs without breaking the mood in my listening room.
it is also better for "tuning" or "testing" and compare sund.
its not abt me, its kind of unethical lul, if i mindlessly queuing more devices
Is this the same as the Denafrips Hestia preamp? It looks so much like it.
Thank you !!! I just purchased the remote control I can't wait to get it, Great news.
Any chance tou could get your hands on a gustard p26 to review, would be interesting to see how it compares to this and theres no reviews online 🤦
Seems like the Topping Pre 90 would be a better comparison but I'd really like to know about the Aune S-17 Pro as a speaker preamp. I've heard the class A warmth that everyone loves in the headphone amp does come through when used as a speaker preamp but would love to know your opinion especially as compared to the Ladder Bach.
Headphone amp/preamp or not, the vast majority of solid state active preamps do run in class A regardless of price. Very few don't.
Had the same question)) As I remember, Zeos said that Aune S17 Pro as a preamp sounds magic))
Topping Pre 90 is very not sounding unit
In reference to "decay", after a couple of years observing the audio scene after several decades of ignoring it, I've learned, along with a growing number of people, that the time element is just as important to satisfying hi fi as is tone.
Agree. It's a show of temporal resolution and low level deteil retrieval that makes sound more lifelike, less dry, and less tiring. However, it's not easily achieved and newcomers will probably think of it as just another audiophile mumbo jumbo.
@@iiWiReviewscan you dim the device with the remote?
Thanks for the updated review. Can you confirm if the remote can dim the display at all. I read somewhere it is possible but can’t see a way to do it from pictures of the remote.
Thanks again
Hello! Compared to Aune S17 Pro purely as a preamp, which sounds best according to your opinion?
I bought this model with a remote, for what it’s worth and for me it has paired well with a Hypex Nilai power. Very happy with the performance, might even finally stop upgrading my hifi hardware. Maybe.
What gain are you using on the amp?
@@Abhidadhia078 the middle setting on the Nilai gave me equivalent volume to my previous power amps.
Hi have a very similar combo, Denafrips Athena + Nilai stereo power amp, very good indeed!
@@Wharariki how’s your experience been with Nilai? I looking getting one however my speakers are efficient rated at 90 DB at 50W not sure how good Nilai will sound at low power
@@Abhidadhia078 my Focal Sopras are 89-90db/1watt/1metre and drop down to 4 ohms, drives them very well. Not quite sure what you refer by 90db at 50 watts. If you see the AVS review they rate the distortion best on the low gain setting (low, medium, high options) , so if you have very efficient speakers you could use that setting.
I wonder if a decent learning remote would work with the Ladder preamp?
Thank you for posting.
I cannot find any online links to manuals/user guides for this preamp - do you have any links?
I purchase this program and very happy with it I had a schiit preamp and sold it The high frequencies were not refined at all
Glad to hear you like it. Enjoy the music. 🎶🎶
I run mine with a Ladder Schumann, 2 McIntosh Mc7100's in a vertically bi-amped configuration playing brand new Tannoy Cheviot. Yes, I have a remote. I think its a great non tube preamp.
Very nice setup 👍
I currently use an SMSL-SU9n for my DAC. I have a Parasound 200 Integrated amp that is being used as a preamp for my Parasound A23+ amp. If i get the Ladder Bach will I also have to upgrade my DAC?
Just redceived a Denafrips Hades preamp it looks identical as the Ladder Bach ?
Wonderful review and keep up the good job. You reviews are very informative. I would like to get one but I am no sure if Schenzen Audio is reliable as there have been so many bad reviews. Does anyone have any feedback from Schenzen?
I bought the S.M.S.L. SU-1 from them in November 2023 and the Topping A70Pro from them in March 2024. They took two or three weeks to get to me (Colorado, US) which is expected when it's coming from China. Everything was well packaged, but I do fear things not working on arrival when it's coming from overseas. My SU-1 is still working 7 months later, and my preamp has worked fine these past several weeks.
Volume leveling in roon is great especially if upsampling.
I can't help but note that pre-amp looks a lot like the Denafrips line of pre-amps - Hades for example, especially the display screen. Even the aluminum remote is Denafrips like. I don't know, but it definitely looks a rebadged Denafrips Pre-amp with some "slight" cometic changes - knobs here are flatter where Denafrips are near half-moons. I don't know, maybe it's me.
No, it is not you. I owned the Denafrips Hades, looks very similar.
@iiWIReviews Thank you for excellent review and content.
Does usage of such Ladder Bach pre-amp improve sound, as compared to feeding a good DAC with variable volume ( such as R26 ) directly into the amp ?
Really appreciate not only your reviews but the music you feature that has turned me onto new music that I love. I have a couple suggestions for you. Check out anything from Hadouk Trio. Also, check out an album called Douo by Bertrand Renaudin and Oliver Cahours.
I like the Hadouk Trio already and I'll check the others. 👍
How does the S17 Pro compare to the Ladder Bach as a preamp?
I have the Aune my friend has the Ladder, he prefers mine and so do I
@@shaunyweaver1144 THANK YOU!!! I really appreciate that.
@@shaunyweaver1144 So a dedicated preamp such as Ladder Bach is outperformed by a headamp with a preamp function?
Sounds like you get 2 FULL-fledged products when you buy an Aune S17 Pro.
If that is true, it is simply amazing amazing value and one of the best products ever perhaps. Minus the heating and volume control issues I've read about on Headfi.
Hello,
Thanks for your honest updates. As I can not audition the product like yo take your help on it. I have a Dali Opticon 6 and driving it via Emotiva XPA2. Can you suggest, if I use Ladder Bach as pre to my analog sources and power is via XPA 2 to Dali will I get the nice sound stage?
My preference in sound will be mostly vocals with nice drums and big low end ( bass heavy ). I listen a lot of piano and violin as well, kinda all round. I felt Dali + Emotiva is not giving enough low end ( but could be source too ), wanted to add a pre to have the warm side on it. I use CXNV2 as a Dac for your reference.
Thanks in advance!!
Well, I would skip the Ladder Bach and go with a Schiit Freya S or their new Kara. I had the Denafrips Hades, which is darn near identical to this LB. And I still own my Emotiva XPA2, which I did use with my Denafrips and the Schiit Freya S, which I wish I never would have sold. The XPA2 and the Schiit were a good match. The Hades came off as rather veiled, almost muddy. Another good one, and my favorite right now, is the PS Audio Stellar Gaincell DAC/Preamp. They can be found on the used market for around that $800. This is a very clean sounding Class A biased preamp with a fantastic DAC that is not fatiguing in the least. What are you using for a DAC?
@@michaelwright1602 thanks for your reply and expecting another communication with you.
Well I made a choice of going towards Rotel 1572MK ll as preamplifier. I am driving my Dalis via Marantz SR6015 DAC (Spotify / Tidal) to 1572MKII to XPA2 via XLR. I much say the sound stage and doubled and detailed a lot.
I could not audition Freya so went to 1572 that had a lot of reputations.
I was planning to introduce CXN V2 or newer as DAC. Any thoughts will be welcome hugely!
@@SoumyaMaitra2008 I owned the CXN V2 and really liked the sound out of the DAC. If you do purchase, one thing to warn you about, when using the XLR outputs to your Rotel, do not use the vacant RCA outputs on the CXN V2 to run other gear like subwoofers. Doing that will cause the volume of the CXN V2 to spike, and I mean blow a speaker SPIKE.
Use the outputs on the Rotel for the subs, which I am assuming you will do, just a heads up if you get tempted with those those RCA connections on the CXN V2 when using the XLR outputs. Use one or the other, do not use both, even though Cambridge says you can.
What I did not care for on the CXN V2 was the streaming side, it worked of course, but did not give me the flexibility of say the WiiM Pro. But, I think you will enjoy the internal DAC of the Cambridge over the Marantz. Hope this helps. And I would recommend the CXN V2, especially now with the newer version that is out. Find a nice gently used one and save a few quid. ;-)
Many thanks for this update. Personally, I don't care about the remote, but I agree that it probably should have been released with one. But the company has listened, they have addressed the matter and I respect that. I am now seriously considering this piece for my system. I am currently using a Singxer SA-1 as a preamp and it is working very well. But I always wondered if I was missing something by using a headamp in this capacity. Seems my suspicions were correct. Thanks again for your great work.
From your experience, does driving both pairs of outputs degrade the sound or mess with the balanced signal? From what I've gathered, the outputs on this are not independently buffered.
Will be on my short list.
have you seen interior of Bach? Any photos? Have you had a chance to audition Schiit Kara or Holoaudio Serene?
Thanks!
The A90D has some significant problems (judging by some measurements), so I would be much more interested in comparing it with the A70 Pro (which you also had in your review, and which has the most perfect measurements that I have ever seen), or at least with the L70 (which also does not have any technical problems), or at least with the Pre90 (which, judging by measurements, is close to the L70, although noticeably inferior in crosstalk).
Love the Bass Room record. Notably the musician is named Princip and shares his name with the Serb who shot Arch Duke Ferdinand and started WWI. No relation I'm sure.
Seem like Ladder has release the Chopin preamplifier. Can you review it?
I'll try to get my hands on it if possible since I liked all Ladder models so far.
My ladder Schumann works with remote from unison Research Simply Italy and Preludio, some functions I could on and off. Maybe this remote also can work with Schumann🤔
That's new to me. It seems that Ladder products all have secret remote controls.😄 I can only imagine this remote would work for it too.
@@iiWiReviews I believe this is the case, maybe I will buy this remote control if the store confirms that it actually works with Schumann.
anyone knows how do you open the cover/lid? i have unscrewed it all without luck.
What is a single crystal copper transformer? What is R2R output?
OCC copper, ladder resistor volume
I'm surprised today preamp is hard to find a button to do tone defeat, i.e. to allow passive signal passthrough, very few gears has this feature
Tone defeat usually bypasses tone controls, but current buffering remains (it doesn't switch to passive attenuation that has problems on its own). This preamp, like most modern models, don't have tone controls at all so it's basically in tone defeat mode by default.
@@iiWiReviews Ok then. Thought that my current setup lean to neutral detailed sonic in a nearfield setup, if were to tame some high frequency harshness at higher volume, would you think this preamp will work, between is it zero noise at surgeon level if I plug in this preamp? Currently I'm not really looking for upgrade, but just different sound at different mood at different time :P
Looks like the Denafrips Hestia/Hades... So does the remote. Made in the same factory? My Hades, which I sold off, and their Athena too, sounded rather veiled, no dynamics with hard to drive speakers. And it was not much better with sensitive speakers, though an improvement. If the LB is anything like the Denafrips, I would pass.
Just a question, can I connect this directly to a turntable? Does it works with MM and MC cartridges?
No, it doesn't have a phono preamp.
@@iiWiReviews thanks a lot! I have a balanced turntable with MC cartridge and a pro-ject phono box, maybe I can use this Ladder Bach as a "volume hub" for both my digital and analog sources... the phono box does not comes with a volume knob but just like 5 different gain level, If I connect it to this preamp via XLR I'm sure I'll get a much more precise volume control.. considering this have 2 XLR inputs I have space for both my Dac and my turntable/phonobox. what do you think? and thanks again for your great reviews, I've already bought quite a few things thanks to your suggestions (via your links) :) ciao from Italy!
Well, after being tempted by the 'Bach and Musician Monoceros i decided to stick with DENAFRIPS.
It seemed to me that the alternative models are just a way around the "grey market" for Denafrips models. The Monoceros does have less power supply components, so a slightly different circuit design....Nevertheless
Vinshine Audio has a great customer service reputation and 3year warranty with service available in the USA.
I also have an Ares2 and Ares12th and wanted to use the balanced output jacks to drive a Bryston amp fully balanced.
The slightly updated Hestia12th arrived this month.
I'm very happy with the clear expressive and slightly warm presentation. Hall Acoustics seem well preserved and natural.
Anyone wanting a tube preamp should However consider the Musical Paradise MP701mk2 !
That is if you're wanting to tinker with sonic presentation😊
Im keeping BOTH.
Freya-Schmeya!
🎶😅🎶
PS
That chunky metal remote also works with my Marantz and Musical Fidelity Phillips based CD players.
So all those extra buttons aren't wasted!
Hello Srboljub, what battery the remote control uses? I received a remote control and pre amp without any documentation. I don't know if is a vendor's mistake or manufacture. Thak you for your help and support. Yashin
It uses CR2032
@iiWiReviews do you get pops/clicks noise from the speakers when changing volume on the Bach?
No, just those relay clicks from the preamp itself.
Remote does not include a battery anyone know what type of battery it uses?
I bought one of these over a month ago. It sounds great but I've experienced a minor issue and wanted to ask if anyone else has experienced it with the ladder bach, or another R2R pre-amp. Occasionally, the volume clicks up or down 1 step completely on its own after I adjust the volume (up if the volume was increased, down if decreased), which might happen after just a few minutes, or several hours later. I messaged Shenzhen about it, and they said their engineers were trying to reproduce the issue on their end, but haven't heard anything back since. Because the pre-amp seems to be working fine otherwise, I haven't pressed the issue further.
Has anyone else experienced something similar? Does anyone with more expertise have an idea about the root cause of this issue? Does it indicate a serious problem, or is this normal for R2R pre-amps?
Hi. I haven't experienced that with my unit but I belive I saw something similar on a headphone amp once. I never gave it much tought since that volume step is so small that it doesn't really change much if it clicks. I have some OCD-leaning friends that would be bothered by it, but if it doesn't cause any bigger issues I'm just not.
As far as engineers trying to reproduce your problem... These things can truly be difficult to reproduce for warranty claim. I'm speakings with some experience here since I used to work at maintenance and repair lab for few years. But back to HiFi, for example, my friend had some problems with Hegel amp having hickups with display at his home, but when I bought it from him (that same unit) it never had them at my place. Later we found out Hegel internal electronics is sensitive to DC component in the power distribution network. The only way for him to solve it was to use DC blocker on the power line. I never needed it in my place.
Because of all this I avoid pulling the warranty card unless problem is of a certain magnitude that it presents a problem for me. But that threshold is personal thing I suppose.
@@iiWiReviews Thank you for clarifying. I did pop the hood on the bach a week ago and took a quick look at the board under a magnifier. Visually, there didn't appear to be any poor soldering joints or shorted legs, so perhaps time will reveal whether there further attention is needed. I suspect it may just be an issue with the IR remote, because I've noticed some quirks with its transmission on-axis vs off-axis from the receiver. I also see that iFi sells a DC offset filter for IEC plugs, so maybe I'll try one out. I do have several wall-wart powered devices in my chain.
Srboljub, you seem to be the primary reviewer for Ladder products. Did you ever get a manual for the Schumann DAC? I ordered mine last year, based mostly on your review. Mine came in a generic plain brown box with no manual or manufacturer information. You did say that your copy did not come with a manual. I was hoping one would be available at a later date.
Do you plan on reviewing the Ladder Boya DDC? I'd like to upgrade from the $60 Douk DDC that I am currently using but I don't want to buy another device that does not have manual. And, I need to know if the I2S output on the Boya is configurable. Thanks. I use the Douk DDC to clean up the USB output from my source. However I can't use the I2S output from the DDC because the left and right channels are swapped compared to the I2S input on the Schumann, so I am using the optical input instead. That is why I am considering an upgrade to the Boya.
Hi Keith, I didn't have a chance to try Boya but it's safe to say that it is internally the same device as Denafrips Iris and Musician Pisces... So if you can find any info about any of these it should be the same. BTW, I'm getting my Ladder devices from the ShenzhenAudio online shop and I have no direct contact to anyone at Ladder. I checked some 6 months after the release of the Schuman DAC there was no manual. Bach arrived in a plane brown box without a manual too and as you can see it was launched without a remote. It feels like there's a serious lack of organisation and that final touch. I hope they'll get their stuff together quickly because products appear to be top notch, both in terms of build and sound quality.
@@iiWiReviews Thanks Srboljub, I appreciate your prompt response. I will look for reviews regarding the Musician Pisces and Denafrips Iris.
hahaha, you nailed it realy,...."and it works",..totaly agree, somhove doesn't fit into my had how this is even being sold without remote option, but what ever, Thx for the review I can shorlist now this one as well and come back to oreginal review
Hi, I hope you are well. I would love some advice if you would be so kind? I am considering buying the ladder preamplifier and dac. Would you think this combination would be a good accompaniment for line magnetic 2161a kt88 amp? Thanks for your kind consideration.
DAC and preamp are a good match between each other in my opinion. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with that amplifier and how would it click with these two.
@@iiWiReviews thanks to much for your kind response. If I go ahead I will let you know! Take care.
Give Audio GD a look, their R28 DAC/Preamp. I would also highly recommend the PS Audio Stellar Gaincell DAC. They are available on the used market for around $800. I have mine paired with a Cayin EL-84 tube amp running Zu DW6 Supreme speakers. My buddy has the Audio GD R28 and swears by it. He also owns the Gaincell. I know the PS Audio unit and tubes play extremely well together. I am not sure how an R2R DAC will sound, as I had the Denafrips Ares II and their Venus II 12th. The PS Audio unit replaced both, as I found the R2R DACs veiled and not as detailed as the PS Audio. What I found interesting about the PS Audio, is that it is an ESS based chip DAC, and I have a tough time with these chip based DACs, fatigue sets in quickly. The reason I went R2R... The PS Audio Gaincell has a Class A bias, and does not sound sterile or digital say like a Topping or SMSL can. It has a very Class A sound to it, big soundstage, instrument separation, clean dynamics, just overall it does everything right. Amir and his crew trashed it, I look at that as a badge of honor. ;-)
@@michaelwright1602 Thanks so much for the suggestions! I will investigate - presently residing in China - hence my interest in the Ladder products! Take care and best wishes,
Thanks for the video. Do you ever do higher-end stuff? I would like to see preamps below $5000 or $3000 Like Hegel P20 or P30 or even the Denafrips Athena. Interested in knowing what you get for all that extra money sound wise and what % improvements you hear. Thanks.
I'll soon review an Acoustic Invader Fulcrum preamp that is €6300 and that I purchased a year ago. I didn't review it sooner because I didn't have a good and well known reference to compare it too. But recently I had a chance to listen the EAR 868 next to it so it will make for an interesting video I belive.
@@iiWiReviews nice, i look forward to it. Thanks for responding.
Can you reverse the in and outputs? Or is there any other recommend preamp with 1x in and 2x out?
No you can't do that.
i wonder how ladder bach would compare to musician monoceros...
I belive they would sound very very similar, almost the same.
Would your endgame diy dac overload this preamp?
No, they worked just fine together.
@@iiWiReviews that's good news. Thank you brother.
Now everyone will say "But Srboljub you didn't compare it to to Aune S17 pro as a pre-amp" we want to know about that.
The remote looks serious, you could use it against burglars trying to steal your gear.
Yes, looks great and Its a great weapon
Thanx Man!
if you play with more headphone amps I think you will find that a headphone amp makes a better preamp than most active preamps; especially driving long cables and in general to lessen the sonic differences of different cables. I would go so far as to say that if a particular headphone amp sounds bad as a preamp, its a bad headphone amp.
Don't let electrical engineers make marketing decisions.
Just add HDMI, Coax x2, Optical x2, XLR and RCA Sub Out, Bass Management and a good DAC and it would be perfect ; )
Would be even nicer to get this preamp with APP Control. No more searching for the correct button
in the dark.
Looks like the Musician Monoceros.
And the Denafrips whatever.
Same products, different names.
I hope receive this pre amp in next couple of weeks. I bought it based in Srboljub review.
As soon as these become…obsolete ? Which is probably 6months or a year ? Or by the time next great pre amp comes out , or the next video ? I’ll get one and hear for myself…. As you can see balance is becoming more relevant in home systems. I work in the field and RCAs are nonexistent ! For many reasons , secure contact, noise reduction, and one of the most obvious is levels . 10db-unbalanced 4db+Balanced ! That alone will give you a truer idea of what’s going on with the signal? The main reason in professional environment is length of cables and noise reduction over long runs. You won’t have that problem in the home? But you will have the benefit of a higher cleaner signal! Most pro devices are made this way and now more home? Devices are using them cause they know the benefits. And people outside of pro audio are not on deck with big industrial connections! Sticking out the back of their equipment . So for the home and the market RCAs became the norm ? And the expense of designing true balanced for the home ?
What is normal for the pro industry…is high end ? for home use…
I can not stand its distracting clicking noise.
I will not take it unless is a gift, because is producing such a HORRIBLE clicking noise on every volume adjusting. I would try to place the PCB board on some dumping spacers to reduce the noise transfer to the chassis and even then probably sell it or give to some one else.