Robb Stark's Will Explained
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- Опубликовано: 7 дек 2023
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Развлечения
Can I just say I adore the idea of all the various supporters gearing up for a Stark succession crisis, drawing battle lines and preparing for war… only for Ned’s kids to play hot potato with the crown, each insisting they don’t want it and it belongs to someone else. 😂
“We have five heirs, how do NONE of them want it????”
Meanwhile Rickon is just playing in the background with Shaggydog 😂
I think Jon, assuming he 'comes back', will yield to his sense of duty, much like he did in the show, and do what's needed.
Its sounds so good tbf.
I figure they'd all just pass the buck to Rickon and agree to stick around acting as a regency council till he's ready.
@@harrymiller7517 Book Jon very much wants it. He fantasizes about it
A lot depends on exactly what is written.
"I legitimize Jon and make him my heir" is different to "Due to the rest of my family being dead, or married to the enemy, I name Jon my heir as he is all that is left."
The former being an absolute statement, while the latter is conditional.
A very good point
Fine print gets ya every time. Hopefully Robb had a solid legal scholar in his retinue at time of writing the will?
"my half-brother, Jon" would also be conditional to him actually being his half-brother.
I wish the 2nd text was canon 😂
the wording does not have to be conditional for people to argue the legitimisation was done under false pretences and is invalid.
The unnamed captain is actually surprisingly important. Not only does he, in all likelihood, have a copy of Robb's Will, his daughter is probably pregnant with Theon's last and only kid, which would partially invalidate the Kingsmoot of the Iron Islands.
nah. the point of the kingsmoot is that they choose a king. they don't follow lines of succession any more than the free folk do beyond the wall
Yes, @@Admiralmeriweather, but the reason Theon wasn't considered an option is because he didn't have and couldn't have kids.
Theon wasn't considered largely because he was thought dead and wasn't there to press a claim. On return he could challenge the legitimatise of the kingsmoot though as he wasnt able to put forward his claim. Having a child that can be identified as his would be interesting but it will be difficult enough to convince the ironborn to back him Asha's plan is going to be a tough one
@@wanderingshade8383
Theon wasn’t at the Kingsmoot in the books.
Kingsmoot is already invalid because of Theons absence. Asha's uncle Rodrick "The reader" Harlaw hints at this when he tells the story Targon (or something like that) the late comer who was reaving during an ancient kingsmoot and comes back and says how he couldn't make a claim so the captains overrule the blood thirsty king at the time and overturn the result of the kingsmoot which sets the precedent that a kingsmoot can be overcome of a vital claimant isn't present, amd Balons only surviving son and technical heir is the most valid claimant around
i love how martin has set up this predicament. the irony of the will creating confusion, all the different factions with their own fairly legitimate reasons, the doubt of jon's parentage... it's complexities like this which make the books so fun to theorize about and to reread!
And probably the main reason they won’t get finished tbh
@@thejoeshow1530no man can know the will of the Gods. Mayhaps it will not or by some miracle we get the next two back to back. We will see!
@@ThommyofThennI would argue writing both before publishing either would make the last book easier
@@kickflippro3 Hey thanks for replying :) your comment made me question something I hadn't really thought of too much. I had kinda thought since grrm talks about splitting ADWD into two books, he had one massive manuscript ready and just grabbed chapters out of it for each book. Yet there was a six year gap between them.. Or did he actually have it all at once, and his publisher told him to wait a bit between books so people could read/discuss/get excited for the next one?
@@ThommyofThenn if I ever wrote a series I would finish it before publishing. Like LoTR, all three were written. I would wait a few years between books so theories could formulate and I can enjoy it all without it effecting my story.
“Wyman Manderly knows that Rickon is alive and throws his considerable weight behind him”
Neat 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
I can't recall how Wyman knew. Did he come in contact with Theon?
also he has 2 unmarried granddaughters for rickon
Wex
@@Adron-og1sk Yup, and Davos is headed to Skagos to hopefully get him back. How exciting.👍🏽
@@claudiaf.8190the Skaggs are going to have turned rickon into a beast, a literal monster, to help show us just how powerful wargs/greenseers can be, and to show just how wrong things can go rickon will be a powerful monster, no stark left in him, and just like stoneheart, someone is going to have to kill rickon, or rather there will be great conflict over that, rickon may sacrifice himself for their cause after realizing who he is/who they are… either way he’s gonna to a disposable badass
It’s so nice to have discussions related to the books and NOT the show. Between these videos/comments, and rereading the series, there is always something new to discover.
Well the show is finished. There is nothing to theorycraft for it. We know the creators literally just stopped putting any passion, time, care and thought into it, so why should we?
@@Zwijger luckily the novels are still being written, with several more to go. Winds of Winter is next.
The HBO “creators” started by adapting their series from the novels. Then they started going completely off the rails and, eventually, when they reached the end of the currently written novels, just started making things up as they pleased and to have an ending that had, what they perceived, as a fan satisfying closure.
The reason folks are still talking about Game of Thrones are the novels. They are extraordinarily dense, detail rich, and filled with fascinating possibilities about what has happened, or may have happened, and may yet happen, and who/what’s involved that the discussions can be endless.
If you haven’t grabbed the novels I HIGHLY recommend it. I’m a field scientist who works in remote parts of the world that are WAY off grid for weeks and months at a time. There is only so much weight and volume I can take, but for almost 30 years at least one of the books in this series will come along. And each time I do, I discover something else that makes the rereading the series that much more exciting and satisfying.
And many of those discoveries and epiphanies come from the video content and comment section like this one.
Cheers! 😊
Never really considered it but depending on the wording I wonder if Robb could have inadvertently legitimized Jon as a true born Targaryen rather than a true born stark…
That would be really interesting. But I wonder what the wording would have to be to make that possible. I imagine he would pronounce him Jon Stark, although I guess the will might just say that he be legitimized upon Robb’s death.
I doubt that. The most generous you can get if R+L=J is that Jon is legitimised as Lyanna’s son with a claim to Winterfell. But Jon’s Targaryen claim would be on a throne outside of the North where Rob doesn’t have any power. Even if the south accepts him as king in the North, he doesn’t have power to change the succession on a throne outside the North
I don’t see any way Robb could have legitimised Jon as a Targaryen given he didn’t know he was a Targaryen. He could certainly legitimise him a Stark but that is all.
That's interesting, but unlikely IMO
Maybe something like this is in the realm of possibilities? "I declare Jon Snow to be not a bastard offspring but a true son of his father, and with all rights of succession of his father's House, fit even to be a King if I should pass away. I also declare him to no longer be bound by duties to the Night's Watch and to once again be a part of his house and home."
Now, even if Robb worded things like this, I don't know that he would be considered to have the power or right to legitimize someone who is NOT in his own realm, but who knows? Maybe legitimizing someone is like making someone a knight, where any knight can do it and the realm will honor that choice. Maybe any Lord can un-bastard someone? Or at least maybe the Lord of a major household can do that--maybe a Stark can un-bastardize any Snow, and a Tully can un-bastardise any Rivers, and a Martell can un-bastardize any Sand, etc?
Or maybe as written, with everyone thinking Jon was a bastard Stark, Robb's decision to legitimize him will get rubber stamped by someone else more important and considered to be in charge? Maybe Stannis would do this?
Or more likely, Dany or Faegon, when they take King's Landing, will get a raven about Robb's will, and will just go ahead and officially honor Robb's decision and declare Jon Snow legitimate, as a gesture trying to unite the North with their new tentative hold on power? And then later, even after the truth is revealed about his parentage, they won't be able to re-bastardize him because they made a solemn pledge about it that is unbreakable?
TBH, I see all kinds of ways that this could work.
The part of Robb's Will that I think does NOT work is not the un-bastarding stuff--it's the idea that Robb would attempt to let Jon throw off the Black. That simply isn't done. Ever. Never in in all the copious amounts of lore about the Night's Watch that GRRM and his team have written. Never in thousands and thousands of years. Never has it happened that a Night's Watch member who has taken vows has later been accepted back into society, much less Lordship.
The reason the Night's Watch is an alternative to death for one's political enemies is that it is just as FINAL as death for those living south of the Wall, and unbreakable even by a king.
So I still think this part is a BIG plot hole on GRRM's part: Robb and Stannis COULD not and WOULD not so casually try and hand a Night's Watch member a Lordship/Kingship, or even a ticket home. They would never even CONCEIVE of trying something like that!
Nor would the realm accept the undoing of a Night's Watch vow.
Now, of course we're pretty sure that Jon will get out of being in the Night's Watch, but only via his death and resurrection, which is a textbook example of an "exception that proves the rule." And even here it's not an exception to the Night's Watch vow itself, which states "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." More importantly, it's something that had NOT happened at the time of Robb writing his will, or at the time Stannis offered Jon Snow to be ruler of the North. So it's just something that would not have been possible for either of them to offer Jon.
The captain of the miraham could be one of the most important ppl in the books. From this will to the potential Greyjoy heir being his grandchild, he could be the absolute difference in the plot
I think Jon denying Stannis was more out of personal and familial pride. He would not want to be legitimized by Stannis. The regard of his family was important to him. He would be more apt to accept the decree from his brother Robb, who he sincerely saw as his closest kin. As Eddard is dead, recognition from him would be paramount in his heart. As far as the northern lords, the north respects the wall more than any other region in Westeros. If not as highly as the Starks do, and so woth the knowledge that Jon was named Lord Commander, even without knowing Jon personally, his designation as leader would hold weight in the lord's minds.
It’s mentioned in the books when Stannis offers to legitimise Jon, all Jon thinks about is Catelyn Stark’s disapproval of him his entire life. Everything she did made feel unworthy of the Stark name. That’s why he turns it down.
He also refuses because Stannis' offer is predicated on Jon cutting down Winterfell's weirwood tree
Robb made the best decission according to what he knew. Also I think that, in a different scenario, Jon could have been a good adviser and a great supporter of Bran and Rickon.
I love how the blackfyre rebellion is always used ny cat to warn against bastards: she forgets that brynden remained loyal .
It's also only a rebellion because of history being written by the winners. And it's a poor analogy by Cat because that was a situation with a bastard chosen over a living heir.
@@dirrdevil actually, he wasn't chosen over the heir just legitimatized.
Whether or not his line was according to age, time of legitimatation or whether he was at the end of the line was the cause of the fight....just like any other Targaryen succession crisis...
Which honestly is something i always wondr: how come the targa fought more or less every time they had to choose an heir, yet we hear nothing of any other house having this issue?
I think the Targaryens are just a contentious lot, maybe that dragon blood.
The reason for the Blackfyre claim to the throne is that Aegon the IV would accuse his heir Daeron II of being illegitimate. Aegon the Unworthy was a terrible king and a worse husband, he had been made to marry his sister Naerys (neither one liked the other and Naerys was close to their younger brother Aemon the Dragon Knight).
Aemon was everything’s that Aegon wasn’t, he was a sword and of legend. And Aegon didn’t like how close the two of them were so he spread lies that Naerys was Unfaithful to him. Later when grown Daeron would argue with his father, such as when Aegon tried to start a war with Dorne (as king Daeron would bring Dorne into the 7 kingdoms through marriage). But Especially once both Naerys and Aemon were dead, Aegon openly questioned Daeron’s parentage.
On his deathbed, Aegon claimed all of his illegitimate children. Daeron honored this and legitimized them
Daemon was conceived on Daena who was Aegon’s cousin and he was a great swordsman as well. So much so that Aegon gifted him Blackfyre, which was the sword of Aegon the Conqueror which should have gon to Aegon’s heir Daeron, but Daeron understood as he was more a scholar than a sowdsman
Daemon Blackfyre once legitimate was Aegon’s oldest son who he had bestowed the sword of King Aegon and he used that to say that Aegon choose him to be King. The result was a long civil war.
@@saraa.4295dragons make it incredibly easy to enforce any claim you might have
@@screamingseal4805 not if the other side has dragons too
Love this video. Robb’s death was gut wrenching for so many readers and fans and the idea of his will legitimizing and naming John as his successor and that uniting the north to defeat the others feels like a very stark appropriate final legacy and tribute to Robb as a strategist and a Stark lord of Winterfell.
I've read the books at least ten times over now, have seen the show's full run a couple times... And I legitimately don't understand how anyone can actually be a fan of Robb. He's an idiot. Great battle strategist, but an utter moron in all other ways. "I had sex with her, so now I have to marry her and break my sworn vow as King In The North, costing me a very sizable portion of my army and supporters, because it's the "honorable" thing to do, like my father before me" except as far as Robb knows, his dad had an affair, got a woman pregnant and then just brought the kid home after the war... He didn't break all his vows of loyalty, fealty, marriage etc just because he slept with someone, he simply did his part to take care of his son. Which obviously we all know Jon isn't Ned's son at all, but only one or two living people in their world know that, they all know the version of events I just laid out. So you slept with the daughter of a vassal lord sworn to Tywin Lannister... And? They're your enemies, and as far as we can tell, it was consensual, not the raping of a captured woman... So you took her maidenhead. Big deal.
The ACTUAL "honorable" course of action is to keep your sworn word with your wartime allies, especially one like Walder Frey, whom pretty much everyone in Westeros seems to agree is a petty, vindictive, vengeful man that nobody should ever trust, even as an ally. Given what we know of Lord Walder, Robb could probably have had his cake and ate it too, so to speak, if he simply hadn't married Jeyne Westerling. Marry a Frey, have Jeyne as a concubine/mistress, whatever term you choose, and Walder Frey would probably not even be mad in the slightest, given how much of a lusty pervert we know him to be.
But to my original point... I wasn't upset by Robb's death at all, I was actually pleased. "About fucking time Robb's idiotic choices caught up with him!" was more or less my exact sentiment. To be fair, at least the version of events in the books that lead to Robb breaking faith with the Freys are much more in line with Robb's character and more believable than the show's version... "To hell with my alliances and the oaths I swore that gave me half my forces, I really want to fuck this hot battlefield nurse!"
But yeah, by the time I reached the Red Wedding in book 3, whatever positive opinions I had about Robb were LONG gone. Robb was an idiot who died an idiot's death, and deservedly so.
@@jediraydenme too and I agree. Maybe he did it just to piss off Cat🤷🏽♀️he did make some really really dumb decisions
it would be utterly insane if somehow they reached the wall with the will only to find that Jon is dead…. then witness him being resurrected. i think that would solidify the wildlings’ and northerners’ loyalty to him
then again it would take a long time for anyone to get from the neck to the wall. i think the will is going to come into play towards the end of the book. maybe Jon’s final chapter will be him arriving at winterfell with the lords rallying around him and holding court. then the chapter/book as a whole could end on a cliffhanger with the herald saying “my lords, i present Lord Howland Reed of Greywater Watch!” that would be the most frustrating ending but it would be so cool as well! it would contrast with dance by having the story end on a note of triumph for Jon.
Or they fear some monster. Having died once, maybe they argue that invalidates his status.
It’d be interesting if Lady Stoneheart passes on the kiss of life to Jon Snow and Robb Stark resurrects during the long night
Rob may have wanted Jon to succeed even if his brothers and sisters may be alive. It is war and all his siblings are young. Only Jon will be able to lead armies.
LSH crowning Jon would be darkly hilarious.
The fact that Lady Stoneheart has Robbs Crown.
The tragedy of all of this is that we will never see an official book ending. GRRM will never finish the series so we’ll simply be left with the TV ending or another author using GRRMs notes to write something to tie the plots together. It may answer some of our questions but will never be entirely satisfying.
“I want greywind’s head attached to my headless body”
It will always feel a little too soon for some things.
Like Wash getting killed in Serenity, or the Red Wedding.
Not saying I didn't laugh a little though.
christ
Brutally genius! You won the comments.
1:55 "Sisters come...before otherkin" is what I heard. A very interesting sentence when talking about a family of skinchangers.
You know what, after the Wyman Manderley pun, I think this might have also been an intentional pun lol.
Let's hope Robb had the brains to cover all bases with something like: 'I legitimize and name as my heir my kinsman, known to all as Jon Snow, my true brother and a Stark in all but name'... if phrased correctly then 'true brother' can be read as meaning someone he SEES as a brother, and doesn't actually need to be an actual brother, or can be ran with the Stark bit to mean 'brother in all but name'. As long as he's still a kinsman, and he is, it still works.
It'll be interesting to see how Arya reacts to all this when she comes back from Essos, especially of supporters of each faction are getting out of hand...
*(potential) SPOILERS*
I'm not 100% sure, but weren't there a couple of Howland Reed's bannermen that joined the Night's Watch shortly before Jon was killed?
So the theory goes that Galbart and Maege actually made it to Greywater Watch, gave the will to Howland and he sent those two guys to join the Watch so they can get a measure of Jon before they break the news to him as well. However, this was right after Stannis left Castle Black, so there were many things going on there (wildlings getting south of the Wall, Alys Karstark, Melissandre sending Mance to Winterfell, etc.) so they didn't really had the opportunity to interact with him at all, that's why we never read about it. And then it kind of became impossible...
It's not really a spoiler it's a theory
they weren't Reed bannermen, they were Hoster Tully's master-at-arms & captain of guards (Desmond Grell & Robin Ryger, respectively) who elected to take the black when Riverrun surrendered. Jaime allowed the garrison to disperse as long as they surrendered their weapons, and these two were the only ones to ask (unprompted, IIRC) to join the Watch, which is why it's a bit suspicious.
so they wouldn't have heard from Mormont & Glover, but they may have heard from the Blackfish, who obviously escaped himself. and frankly even if Brynden didn't actually witness the signing of the will, I would guess that Robb consulted him about it/shared his intent before leaving Riverrun, seeing as Brynden was clearly his closest advisor (meaning that no one would have needed to send a raven).
@@coldwaterburns_ a bit suspicious, maybe, but at the same time Desmond Grell does make a rather good point - he's served House Tully his entire life, his home is at Riverrun, for all we know he might be the sole living member left of House Grell so the closest thing he could have had left as a family is now gone. Jaime did the equivalent of throwing him and Robin Ryger out into the wilderness with the expectation that they simply survive on their own and like Desmond says, he's too old to make a hedge knight. So where is an old knight to go except for the wall where good men are always wanted?
@@coldwaterburns_ Right, thanks, couldn't remember their names.
The Blackfish could have also learned about the will from Edmure, who was a witness, before he escaped. We don't know where he is, he might be on his way to the Wall, and Grell and Ryger might have been ordered to join him there. Or they might legitimately wanted to join the Watch.
@@DominionSorcerer Valid points for both of them, can't argue with that. Just because it seems suspicious, doesn't mean it's true.
I would like it to be though 😅
That stuff about the parallels between both Robs wills is why I love this franchise.
Nothing I love more than theorizing about a sequel book that is never going to come out...
Well done vid IDG & HoW with a comprehensive breakdown of a somewhat complex and super interesting facet of the narrative. Given Robb's knowledge at the time with Sansa with the enemy / married to a Lannister , Bran & Rickon presumed dead (missing at best) & same with Arya ; Jon is the obvious choice (despite Cat's predictable objections there). That dynamic with Jon i find very fascinating because we have seen these oath releasing offers - Vaegon (son of Jaehaerys I) long ago , more recently Maester Aemon and again Jon via Stannis and likely Robb's will regarding JS as well. So given these attempts must be a valid approach. But an underrated interesting aspect of all this for me is unless i am forgetting obvious examples ; don't believe we have seen any of these decrees of breaking oaths from the NW or the maesters etc actually come to fruition beyond these offers. That would be narratively unique past and present when that likely comes to pass via Jon.
Though how this all shakes out and all the particulars are equally intriguing ; between claimants , general nobility and general narrative heavy hitters each having their own opinion of how the will should be interpreted and who they each have in mind. Even more complicated when the Stark children resurface and return to Wf and if Jon's true parentage revealed beyond intimate circles ; yes a Stark but not Ned's son (biologically anyway). Though unlike the generations after Cregan and as the vid suggests should not be a very contentious Stark situation to resolve. None of the Stark children are particularly power hungry , there is mutual love & respect there and most have other priorities to pursue anyway.
Should make for a fascinating part of the narrative the will reveal / its particulars , how everything shakes out and the potential narrative twists and turns as a result.
🌝
I’d love to see a video on what if Robb had just declared an independent North, rather than going to war with the Lannisters after Neds death.
I'm certain that would lead to a war with the lannisters, I don't think they'd let half the kingdom go free
@@Arlanalt agreed but they’d have to travel north onto stark land rather than Robb heading south. Robb won every battle and on his own land he knows, with troops who were fresh and not weary from marching hundreds of miles he may win. Not to mention that winter is coming and it could’ve resulted in Lannister troops in unequipped for the cold, fighting in the north against northmen raised in the cold and snow.
@@jackm201 I think they'd be unable to take the North, but they'd ruin the riverlands south of the neck. I think honorable Robb would go south to support his ally through his mother. It just doesn't seem like him to leave the riverlanders to die alone. As unfortunate as it is, I don't see Robb fairing well in almost any scenario where the north is independent
I think that’s a fair point. Which is why I’d like a video on it. Lots of angles to explore haha
@@ArlanaltRobb would have been victorious if he hadn't crossed the Freys. He won every battle. If it hadn't been for him marrying Jane Westerling, and Edmure fuckin up Robb's plan to catch Tywin, he would have busted some Lannister ass! Also, if he hadn't sent Theon to the Iron Islands...he still would have had to fight them, but Winterfell would still be in tact.
The true power of Robb's will is dependent on people who learn of it and how much weight they grant the words of a long dead boy-king. Then its the wording. I doubt it's a brief one sentence note and that Robb actually explains his reasoning the same way he explains it to Cat. With such things one cannot be too brief to avoid confusion. So it is probably worded pretty similarly to his speech that all his true born siblings are dead, lost, or Sansa, and only one brother remains to him - Jon. In that case, the naysayers would be right in questioning the will, as Rickon would be the natural heir (or Bran if he's not above earthly titles). I can not see the Stark siblings going for 'a dance of wolves', there would be more discussions about regency for Bran or Rickon. Their supporting Lords would probably want a Regency Council, but I can see Jon acting as The Protector of the Realm for his brother and taking on military commands and chief advisory role. You know, since there is an Army of the Dead coming their way. And for all his noble leanings, Jon wouldn't risk others influencing the game to their detriment.
Also, the legitimazation could be viewed as separate from inheritance. So Jon could still be Jon Stark without becoming King? Jon wouldn't accept it from Stannis, but maybe he would from Robb?
Then, there is the matter of his death and resurrection and true parentage. How will it change him? Will he be dragged in with the dragon side of the story? Who knows what, and where they are and what's their agenda? Ufff... no wonder GRRM can't finish it 😂
I gather a regent would be needed in the case of Robb's younger siblings? In Westeros they come of age on their sixteenth name day? I may have misremembered timelines, but most of the Stark children were pretty young weren't they when the war with the Lannisters started?
Well let’s wait another 5-10 years until we will read in the book
You optimist you!
2024 will be the year it gets announced 🤞
@@alcyonae he still has 500 more pages to write. based on the pace hes writing at, i think we are looking at a minimum of five years.
@@craig7405 500 based on what? He shared the cryptic post with the blue rose only a few weeks back. Last time he had a similar cryptic post (the King Kong one) ADWD was announced some four months later
The last word of lady Caetlin before she dies were (roughly) : "all of this (the red wedding) happen because she was unable to love Jon", so she might have change her heart on that topic.
That was only in the TV Show
@@FlorianMark No it was only in the book
@@eldiraenarion4206she does say something similar in the show but it's after bran and Rickon are "killed"
I loved it.
thank you, Robert (owner of the channel)
love your song of ice and fire videos, keep up the great work!!
Love this video series, and i really appreciate the work you do!
Another excellent video from our brother Rob. Outstanding work, Sir!
Great video and info as usual Robert. I liked that Howland Reed character. Hopefully we’ll get to see him in WoW
I’ve never really thought about howland reed knowing Jon’s true parentage, i reckon he will be how we as the reader and how the characters in the book will find out/have confirmation
Great explanation IDG. Love your asoiaf breakdowns.
Neither Rob nor Catelyn raised the issue of also releasing Benjen Stark from his vows and naming him as a successor? After all, he’s a legitimate Stark, and paternal uncle of the king.
Good point.. but Robb’s king now so I think he’s brother comes first in his eyes, bastardy be damned.
Also benzene stark has been missing and is presumed dead for most of the series.
Only death releases a man from his vows
@@jordanbauman-putnam9524Benzene Stark lmao
Benjen disappeared in the first book and is presumed dead
“his considerable weight” 🫢😂
Jon's true parentage is something virtually unprovable by anyone in the South (or in Essos) . Howland Reed is known (or at least believed) to be a Stark loyalist and friend of Ned's. Crannogmen are hardly well respected anywhere. His word won't carry much weight. Any possible letters from Rhaegar claiming he had a sone with Lyanna don't really prove Jon is the kid. This is especially true when the "honest and honorable" Ned Stark always insisted he's his bastard son.
The only people who could testify to his parentage and would be believed are the three Kingsguardsmen who protected the tower, but they're dead.
Are they though? I still have doubts about Arthur Dayne being dead.
5:48 We dont really know. By this point I think the true twist is that Jon is indeed Ned's bastard
Chaos is a ladder for him.
Excellent writing there.
I doubt that there would be any succession crisis, at least not from Jon. If Jon changed in mind (to become a Stark) due to these circumstances I would argue that Jon would immediately give up his claim if Brann or Rickon showed up.
I don't think anyone thinks Bran is going to show up and press his claim any time soon. he's busy becoming a freaky tree wizard and apparently no one expects him to be able to reproduce anyway, so I think more than any other candidate he could say "I don't want it" and whatever supporters he might have would have to leave it at that.
Rickon is five. even if Jon doesn't want the crown, I think he would take it if the only alternative at the time was Rickon. a kid that young would have a long regency and there are no older Stark relatives to claim it. which is a pretty big problem under normal non-magical circumstances, but with the Others actively invading, lords like Manderly working against each other to gain more personal power would literally mean the death of them all, and Jon would know that better than anyone (having recently been assassinated and all).
I'm sure Brann will know where the will is, if he's anything like how he is in the books.
if it comes out Arya is alive, but Robb named Jon his heir and King in the North, but Howland knows Jon isnt Nedds, theres a pretty obvious solution. Marry them. Robb legitimizing Jon takes care of the issue of if Rhegar and Lyanna are actually married. Jon being a bastard or not, he is a legitamate Stark, or hell a legit Targaryen. either way he could marry Arya or Sansa and take the Stark name. then a Stark King in the North would have an Aunt with three dragons and a claim to the iron throne.
I had to go look up the information about the will in the books as I forgot how much we knew about the will and how much was fan theory. It's the end of Storm of Swords, chapter 45=Catelyn V.
Read the early Arya chapters, she is interested in how a castle works and is better at economy than her sister.
She does not want marriage, babies, or needlework. The girly stuff.
But she'd be a good castellan.
This video is weirdly the first time I realized that Cat knows as a fact that Arya is still alive. I totally never put that together. She's working with the brotherhood, and the brotherhood met Arya after everyone thought she was dead. How am I so stupid lol. Stoneheart knowing her daughter is alive is going to be a huge motivator for everything she does.
I really feel like this will is what is going to be the instigating factor that causes Jon to become king of the north in the books rather than him randomly being named. I think this would be a bigger reason for Sansa to start to resent him because im sure someone will mention that Rob thought she was married and his siblings dead. I feel like the show runners were told what happens but kind of drew their own path....
Jon Stark time!!
A thing with bran is that his disability make the succession even more complicated as some would say that it disqualifies him.
I think Jon will rightfully consider his oath to the Night's Watch fulfilled, and would likely accept the Northern Throne because, as you said, it would give him the power and the position to deal with the issue of the wildlings and preparing for war vs the Others.
I could see Jon's plot in the books following a similar story to the show, or at least (assuming Jon leaves the Night's Watch after being resurrected) he rallies the North to face the Other's, becoming a Regent of sorts for Rickon (assuming Rickon doesn't get killed off like he did in the show) or maybe Kingship is forced on him with Rickon then dead like in the show and when word gets to him about Young Griff, he tries to get the latter onboard to fighting the Others by bending the knee and swearing fealty to Young Griff. Dany's dragons probably are a more powerful weapon to use against the Others and maybe Jon faces a situation similar to his inner conflict between the Nightswatch and Yigritte, his duty to Young Griff by having bent the knee but his love for Dany creates another human heart in conflict with itself moment that GRRM loves to paint the series as. The only X factor is Stannis and when and/or how he dies in the books.
I sometimes imagine George R. R. Martin watching your videos and rubbing his beard, "Hmm, that's a good point. I haven't really thought of that."
The thing is, other than the Targaryans, the Starks are the only TRUE kings/royalty in Westeros based on their own merits.
Excellent video! I love seeing the facts laid out like you do. One thought I have is Sansa. She Married Tyrion in front of the High Septon (as you do at this level of aristocracy). Irl Henry VIII could not just walk up to a common priest and have his marriage to Catherine of Aragorn annulled and I don't think that Sansa would be able to either. Given that the present High Septon is the High Sparrow, a man known for his poverty, would he possibly grant an annulment to an anointed girl bride for the purposes of granting her the seat of the Starks and the right to rule the North? It was not consummated true but WE know that, everyone assumes that, but will he take that as a fact or rumor (see: Catherine of Aragorn and Arthur Tudor)? Just another trick to gain power in the North for a mere girl who ran away from her husband to live with the former Master of Coin in the Vale. It will be an uphill battle or a surprise death for sure to make it happen!
I think it could be annulled because it wasn't consumated. Like Henry VIII's marriage to Anne of Cleves.
@@signeaarejrgensen61 The Anne of Cleves annulment came after Henry broke from the church and declared himself head of what became the Church of England. By that time he wasn’t listening to anyone.
The High Sparrow / current High Septon isn't long for this universe anyway , he is in Cersei's crosshairs and she will not forgot such slights against her. She will surely take him out soon similar to GoT or otherwise. GRRM has clarified it will certainly require a High Septon for Sansa's annulment ; but by then perhaps another High Septon in place (very likely to be the case) will likely be more amenable to Sansa / the Starks' situation. Especially if still unconsummated. Even more so if it likely occurs later on anyway and the Starks have proved even more heroes of the realm. Either way the current High Septon , the High Sparrow , will likely be out of the picture by the time that request is made and the Starks will likely have that much more influence and good favor considering their likely upcoming contributions to the realm by then.
@@ygritteweirwood9298 That's a very good point. But marriages could be annulled due to non consumation according to the Catholic church(and The Church of the seven).
@@AlexBB77 That is one speculation that I agree with as most likely. That is the surprise death I would expect from the author! I could see Littlefinger waiting until this happens before announcing that Sansa is with him in the Vale. I do wonder who would be the one to appoint the NEW high septon and what the behind the scenes reasons for that appointment will be.
Fan to GRRM “will Jon ever learn that Robb named him his heir?”
GRRM Answered, “i have not revealed who Robb named as his heir”
People want Jon to be the heir so badly they've convinced themselves it's him.
It's like R+L=J, in that Jon is the default answer as it were to who Robb named his heir to be, that almost everyone goes with.
When it came down to it, When it came down to it, rob stark did not have a very strong will. He did not have the will To give up the good punnanni for the good of the kingdom.
If Howland Reed is still chilling in his castle after receiving the news - its most likely not important to him cause he knows Jon is a Targaryen and should be very last person to inherit Winterfell since he's from the female line. Jon had always dreamed that he doesn't belong in Winterfell anyway so I highly doubt he will fight his brothers/sisters for it.
KING IN THE NORTH!
Why couldn't/wouldn't Tryion drop his last name and become legally a Stark. Sansa and Tryrion could make an interesting power couple.
It's kind of fun none of the Stark kids really want power, if they ever wield it is for honor, like Eddard (Jon did not really want power, just to be a Stark).
How would resurrected Lady Stark react to resurrected Jon Snow? They would have a strange new connection to each other.
There's a manderly weight joke just before 13:00. Lol
Imagine being Jon Snow, stuck at the center of not one, but TWO succession crises. XD I think it would be especially delicious if the Stark succession crisis gets settled with everyone generally agreeing on crowning Jon, only for his parentage to THEN be revealed, opening up doubt about his suitability to lead the north while ALSO thrusting him into the middle of a Dance of the Dragons 2.0. Chaos Intensify!
Great video! Thank you. But what if Robb knows he has impregnated Jeyne and she doesn't take the potions her mother gives her because, well, that was obvious and so he names the unborn child his heir. Would Jon be more willing to come down from the Wall then? What could possibly unite the Stark children more powerful than coming to the rescue of Robb's child?
God I can’t wait for the winds of winter 🥶
To comment on the Littlefinger idea, he might back Wyman Manderly and his efforts to make Rickon lord and Sansa as his regent. Wyman is financially the most important bannerman to have on your side and he does have debt problems that Baelish can help him with.
I need to correct something. The man that meets Bran and probably knows he's still alive is just someone from Clan Liddle. There's no indication that he's the lord.
That AI Howland Reed is so horrible. Looks like a Lord from the Westerlands or the Reach but definitely not a Cranogman.
Great video but not vibing with that picture of howland haha looks like Jorah
You asked if Jon not being Robb's true brother would be an issue in the line of succession, but it would actually change little. You quoted Catilyn referencing Rickard's lack of siblings before following the Stark family tree back to Robb's Great-Grandfather's generation, thus a sibling line is fully explored before jumping backward in the generations. By this principle of course, without an heir, Robb's claim would pass to his siblings, which he rightfully considers lost to him based on the information he has, thus barring any bastard legitimization, all parties involved will next consider Ned's siblings. Most in Westeros of course would consider this as dead of an end as Rickard's siblings, with Brandon long dead, Benjen childless at the wall, and now most likely "dead", and Lyanna dying childless.
But of course, we the readers know that Lyanna did indeed not die childless, but gave birth to Jon, and while he is likely a legitimate Targaryen, as Robb's legitimate cousin, he has a stronger claim to Winterfell than any Lannister children born from Sansa, being Robb's nephews and nieces. In fact, revelation of Jon's true parentage, if Rhaegar and Lyanna did legally marry, actually strengthens Jon's cousin claim to Winterfell over his current half-brother bastard status, as he no longer needs royal legitimization. The problem with either Robb or Stannis legitimizing a bastard Jon is that any king on the Iron Throne can refuse to recognize the acts of such a "false king" and thus forcefully remove Jon from any and all claims, Stark or otherwise.
Obviously, this is, as you observed, all dependent on whether Jon claims Winterfell before the "hidden Starks" siblings reappear, and whether they will challenge him for the North. Bran has the strongest claim after Robb, but even if GRRM changes the ending he reportedly told D&D that Bran will seat the Iron Throne, with everything Bran has going on, he may not want Winterfell, and thereby wouldn't challenge an already crowned Jon. Of course Bran's claim might be for just his generation, as it is also claimed that Bran will not sire children due to his crippling, though I'm not sure if this is a true statement. Rickon's ultimate fate is severally in question, considering the lengths required to find him, get him back to Winterfell, and then prove his identity, to say nothing about his mental state as either damaged in the worst case, or simply immature in the best. Yet taking the best case scenario, it is most likely the Northern Lords would request Jon to play the role of regent until Rickon comes of age. Yes, any Northern Lord could play the role, but considering what we saw of Rickon's mental state from the start of the series to Theon's betrayal, this baby "momma's boy" would need to be put in the guardianship of someone he can trust, and with all of the familiar Winterfell staff dead, Jon is the best available option. Now if Rickon's psyche is too damaged to sire children, then Rickon will be Lord of Winterfell in name only, and succession would likely pass to Jon's children, as Bran is also unable to sire. Sansa's status is worse than the Myrenese knot, as the High Septon, considering his stark perspective on religious interpretation, is very likely to uphold her marriage to Tyrion, regardless of consummation, because of her vows to marry him before the Seven, even if they were fake, thus enforcing the Westerosi to never speak vows in vain. Obviously, this is all dependent on who is High Septon with Cersei at play, but as long as the Mad Queen lives, Sansa cannot risk coming out of hiding. Even after Cersei is "neutralized", Sansa's connection to the king's death, along with her being the wife of his convicted and escaped killer, further cements her dangerous position. Even if all of this presumed guilt is cleared away, with Tywin and Kevin dead, Jaime in the Kingsguard, and Lancel celibate, Tyrion has to step in as Lord of Casterly Rock, but with him in Essos, governance of the Westerlands would now fall to his lady-wife: Sansa. Thus even if the Northern Lords would accept her given her forced ties, she is not in a position to claim Winterfell. Finally, there's Arya; although she feels duty-bound to defend her family, she has always shown to be a girl who obeys instructions only when she likes them, thus if the Northern Lords approach her and say that she must become the Lady of Winterfell, she is more like to disobey and flee rather than accepting her responsibility and duty, to say nothing of her rejecting the Lady lifestyle. However, if Rickon is alive, and risen to Lord, Arya might be convinced to become his warden and raise him, but only after she has finished killing all of her family's enemies. Either way events play out, even if Arya initially accepts the ruling position, she will eventually feel stifled and trapped by it, and find any way out that she can. If forces to appoint Jon are already in play by the time she returns to the North, Arya will certainly throw all of her support behind him, and she is also likely to support any one of her siblings before her to make sure that she doesn't get the job, even Sansa.
Robert, I have for years enjoyed your content, but today while watching this I had a wave of melancholy with the thought you've probably done more thinking about the winds of winter than George, I started reading the series in 2001 never imagining that 22 years later I would lose hope of reaching the end but sadly today I did 😢
On hearing your chat re the implications of Robbs will I just thought there's a book in its self and that was that, I hope he finishes but more importantly I hope he finishes it well and avoids a Dan and Dave quick rush mess just to get it over the line, I will keep watching your excellent work but I have little faith this story will be revealed
From the title I wasn't sure if the video was going to be about his fortitude or the legal document.
when will there be another live stream?
Even if Wyman and Galbert knew, they wouldn't tell Davos, who is a staunch Stannis loyalist that Jon was named as Robb's heir. So sending Davos away works both as a backup to if Jon refuses and a distraction to keep eyes away from Jon
My question is, does Jon (John's without an H) even have a choice? It's a Royal Decree, when Robert showed up at Winterfell Ned didn't have a choice, he is the new Hand of the King...
Now i'm watching the 2nd half of this. I'm wondering what Edmure will get into. Really worried he will get pincushioned, his rescue will require stealth, intrigue or overwhelming force of arms. Regarding a succession crisis, I don't see the Starks being like that. However a lot has changed and Littlefinger seemingly intends to use Sansa...but how much longer *she will have use for him* might not be as long as he thinks.
Edmure is just a hostage so the Tully's. can't attack the Freys (over simplified)
@@bennett420316 thanks!
Wyman Manderly’s “Considerable weight”
It could come down to things like those supporters who'd rather have a child they can "influence" vs. those who see the need for a more adult who can lead an army. Another thing to consider is Jon's death. Would that have legal implications.
The Blackfyre argument really doesn't hold water as Aegon IV did already have a legal trueborn son. He was also looking to stir the pot with his actions and there were existing conflicts stemming from giving Daemon the sword and him generally being more "manly" than his half brother. Also, a lot of the conflict was more about Bloodraven and Bittersteel.
While similar situations may exist between various northern houses, they don't really exist between the the Stark kids. If anything the conflict might be the reverse, "You should rule." "No, you should rule." I don't see Arya being a major player in any of this. She's too far down the line, is the farthest away and likely the last to arrive home, and has the least interest. With Sansa, it probably depends on where she is in her story with Littlefinger, still mostly under his thumb or having begun forming her own power base. Rickon is pretty much a blank slate and a small child, so this will be more about Wyman Manderly. Bran is part of a bigger plan and we don't know how changed Jon will be upon return.
One thing to consider is if Jon comes back "wolfish" will that actually make him better suited to communicating with wild child Rickon and helping him rule?
Good thing we only have 15 more years to wait until Winds of Winter to find out
I'm glad you mentioned how characters' motives are more important than laws and contracts.
Jon's sense of duty weighs much higher than his personal ambitions. Even after death, his loyalty will be to the Watch.
I think Lady Stoneheart will be used to wake Jon. The whole stone and dragon symbolism seems bound to make it happen.
She's a thousand miles away in the Riverlands! How is she going to revive Jon at the Wall? 'Splain that one to me, Lucy!
I wonder if the Boltons found out about the will and that’s why Ramsey sent the challenge to Jon at the end of a dance of dragons
Personally I'm a fan of the much more niche theory that Robb named Catelyn heir not Jon but all these strings still do pull in interesting directions
Jon has yet to, canonically, be stated as either a half-brother or cousin to Robb Stark. His mother could be Ashara Dayne. Martin does like to throw left hooks into his stories. The twist would be that Eddard married Ashara Dayne, but then had to marry Catelyn Tully(Love vs Duty) Elsewise, they would all die in Robert’s Rebellion. It is curious why the Daynes named Edric Dayne after Eddard Stark. The supposed killer of Arthur Dayne.
(Arthur could be alive, as Mance Rayder, the way Mance is so good with a Greatsword)
Either way, as suggested by Catelyn Stark, if some distant cousin in the Vale can be Robb’s heir, that heir should be Jon Snow.
Was there ever a succession crisis in house Stark mentioned in the books? If so, it might provide clues
The next dunk and egg novela . Is supposed to be set at winterfell.
During a stark succession crisis. Its mentioned briefly in the world book .
Cregan stark was a child lord of winterfell ad his uncle was regent, he tried to withhold power from him , brief conflict.
There was a basterd son that ruled. House stark. As regent and was so good , he was allowed to continue until his death, then his brother took power.
@shanenolan5625 thank you!! If it's any kind of foreshadowing, maybe it's Rickon who will be the child king, in age or in some kind of impairment from not having a real childhood. It's said more than a few times he and Shaggydog are more feral than the rest. Could John sub for him after an untrustworthy steward rules for him? Just a possibility.
Catelyn knows about Jon 100%. Calling it.
One other thing to mention is that Jon isn't the only possible beneficiary, and not just in that it's never been confirmed so it could technically be anyone, but in that Catelyn being the heir is a very real theory with at least some weight behind it.
No it isn't. It's such a stupid theory. She has no Stark blood and she is nearing the end of her fertile years. Naming her the heir is beyond stupid.
He did not choose Jon as heir. Robb's conversation with his mother was him setting up a trap for her. Cat later calls the actual reveal of the will as "a trap". Jon can't be released from his vows to the Watch. The Watch is not within the jurisdiction of the King of the North. And the vow Jon took was to the old gods. Robb has not authority to absolve a vow to the Old Gods. No matter what Robb tries to do, Jon will be an oath breaker to the Old Gods.
Robb does not even know if Jon is still alive at this time. Jon went on the ranging North and nobody has seen or heard of him since. Most of the realm knows the Watch suffered massive losses on the ranging. Why would Robb pick Jon who nobody knows where he is and could be dead? This is the exact reason he passed over Arya.
Robb said he did not want to create chaos. Picking Jon who might be dead, and clearly is the Watch, and has zero ties to the Riverlands creates political, and theological chaos.
Robb threatened Jon in order to force Cat's hand. Robb legitimized Jon, then named Cat his heir thereby forcing Cat to accept in order to stand in Jon's way. Robb wins all his battles via traps and misdirection. He did the same thing here. This is why George did not give us the text. He is using misdirection just like Robb. We never see the text and not a single witness to it ever makes mention of it being Jon.
Cat is his heir.
Agreed. Many people are acting like Jon was explicity named in the will. He was not, and the fact that Jon was a suggestion before the final events played out and we only get a reaction from Cat suggests it's anyone but Jon.
12:43 Is it confirmed that Lady Stoneheart knows that Arya is alive? Some people around her do, but I'm not sure if she herself knows
We don't the will named Jon. That's the first suggestion and a definite possibility, but not known definitively.
Also, if the books end with establishing some King, then the story fails.
Robb leaves the Stark throne to Varys, but only if he marries Ellaria Sand and in turn names the Night King as their heir.
I wouldn't say that the Liddle could "easily" inform Reed of anything. Howland may have the equivalent of a palantir (doubtful) but the rest of the northern houses don't. it's a long way and the Liddle would have to go personally, leaving his hall without a master during a war and with winter approaching.
Plus, Robb can still have a kid. Yes, Lady Westerling said she gave her daughter moon tea, but characters lie... very often.
Reminder that Lady Westerling likely pushed Jayne to pursue Robb in the first place and accepted their marriage.
It's been anywhere from 6-10 months from the Red Wedding so this possibility is very much on the table
I don't think Edmure and Brynden would be opposed to Jon as much as one might think. Both are military men and understand the need for an adult warrior king, which only Jon could be. With Robb's death and the believed death of the rest of Cat's kids save Sansa, there is no basis to oppose it via wanting their own kin to take throne. Even then it isn't like Edmure couldn't sire a daughter to marry a son of Jon.
Robb would have also spoken at length about Jon to both of them. To Brynden to just pass along the time between battles and Edmure to sell him on the idea of Jon being named heir.
Its pretty clear that Robb can’t release Jon from his Night’s Watch vows. Its arguable whether the Iron Throne could legally do so, its not even argued that the King of the North might. What he can do is make a deal with the Watch, that they might release him; they are beholden to the powers that be in the north.
Robb's wife Jeyne seems to be very loyal to his memory. I think she has a copy of his will. She is on her way to captivity now, along with Edmure, but there seem to be so many bands of raiders and so on, of course the Blackfish might free them with or without LSH.
Why is an image of Jorah Mormont in green being used to represent howland reed
I predict that from Winds of Winter onwards Jon and Stannis will switch positions, Jon will no longer be a POV character once ressurected, he will become a reluctant claimant to the Iron Throne (with the goal of uniting Westeros against the Others) whereas Stannis will be defeated by the Bolton/Frey alliance, Sherrien will be sacrificed by her mother and Stannis's army will be almost completely spent, Stannis being Stannis will refuse to bend the knee to Tommen and will refuse to yield to Ramsay Snow and will opt instead to murder his wife and take the Black, where he will be elected Lord Commander almost immediately and will be a POV character from Winds onward.