"Are they ever coming back?" Bran asked him. "Yes," Robb said with such hope in his voice that Bran knew he was hearing his brother and not just Robb the Lord. "Mother will be home soon. Maybe we can ride out to meet her when she comes. Wouldn't that surprise her, to see you ahorse?" Even in the dark room, Bran could feel his brother's smile. "And afterward, we'll ride north to see the Wall. We won't even tell Jon we're coming, we'll just be there one day, you and me. It will be an adventure." "An adventure," repeated Bran wistfully. He heard his brother sob. The room was so dark he could not see the tears on Robb's face, so he reached out and found his hand. Their fingers twined together.
This is my own head cannon but I feel like when we're seeing this chapter we're actually seeing it through " future bran" so not actual bran in the moment of the story but the bran that is looking back on this moment
Theon was Robb's biggest mistake. He saw him as a friend rather than remembering that he was a hostage, the only thing stopping Balon Greyjoy from rising up in rebellion.
Balon was going to rebel regardless of Theon being with them or not. That's why he was already prepared and ready to attack. He was attacking the North no matter what.
@@thisguy8106 But why North? North is barren. Rivelands were prime target. Malister was fighting inland with his best men. Seagard and Cape of Eagles were undermanned.
@@thisguy8106 Balon was going to attack, but not necessarily the North. Both the Westerlands and the Riverlands were undermanned and easier targets with more wealth to plunder. Theon no longer being a hostage gave the Ironborn free reign to attack the North, especially given that Theon knew Robbs military plans and how unguarded the North had been left.
I would have loved to see more of Robb and his siblings together. See their relationships as they grow. Jon and Robb working together would have been a powerful force.
I agree, even in the books as the siblings went their own separate ways, you could tell they deeply loved each other and really had good faith in each other.
I think NOT having a Robb POV is a testament to GRRM's writing... not much could be more human than to experience "If Only..." and we will forever lament this missing piece.
12:52 No, he can be blamed for Theon. He sent the hostage his father took back to the man from whom he was taken. Even if Theon didn't turn against him, he threw away his only leverage against the Greyjoys. Balon would be the type to either thrown his son into a cell or wouldn't trust him and keep him away from anything important, and his mother is aware of this and tells him so. "If the Lannisters won’t make peace, I’ll have need of Lord Greyjoy’s longships.” “You’ll have them sooner if you keep his son as hostage.” “He’s been a hostage half his life.” “For good reason,” Catelyn said. “Balon Greyjoy is not a man to be trusted. He wore a crown himself, remember, if only for a season. He may aspire to wear one again.”
Agreed. His embassy to Balon Greyjoy was an unmitigated disaster, brought on by Robb's misjudgments, period. There's a strong argument to be made (again mentioned by Cat) that Balon was going to attack the North anyway, but that attack could never have threatened Winterfell, Bran, or Rickon without Theon being part of it. His other two embassies, though, made good sense. Renly was the most agreeable and (at the time) most powerful potential ally, and Cat most likely would have been able to secure that alliance if Stannis and Melisandre hadn't killed him. As for his embassy to King's Landing, that was much more of a ploy to make the Lannisters think he was sitting on his hands than a genuine peace effort. He intentionally sent a peace offer he knew Tyrion and Cersei wouldn't accept, letting them think they could tie him down in negotiations in order to disguise his plan to attack the Westerlands. So one of those embassies worked as intended, and the other almost certainly would have, except for factors he had no way to know about.
Balon clearly didn't care about Theon being held hostage or consider it much leverage over him. His plan was already in motion to attack the north prior to Theon being sent back anyway. Bad move by Rob sending Theon as envoy, but even if he hadn't, Balon was taking the north.
@@tehbakinblackI wonder why Balon seemed so unconcerned with Theon. You’d think he’d care considering the Ironborn are less likely to follow a woman like Asha than the rest of Westeros.
@@aaroncohen2700 Based on the Theon chapters on Pyke, it seems Balon did consider Asha as his heir. We never learn his thought process, or exactly why he seems to think there wouldn't be a problem with the ironborn following a woman, but his position seemed clear. And yes, it's clear Balon was already assembling his forces to attack the north before Theon arrived and was going to do it whether or not the Starks still had their hostage. The critical difference with Theon being there to join in was that he was the only one who had the insider knowledge to plan the attack on Winterfell. Without him, the Ironborn attacks would have been a problem, but not a critical blow to Stark power.
The thing is, Robb isn’t a total dumbass like Balon. He’s able to recognise that if Balon wants independence, which he knows he does, his best choice is to join with Robb and fight two rebellions. Think about it, what’s the worst thing you can do when leading a rebellion? Attacking the only other faction whose goals don’t include subjecting and ruling over you, but in fact also want their independence. Robb is defeated by Balon purely because Balon made the worst possible choice and doomed both of them in the long run.
"Edmure, I need you to hold Riverrun BUT let the Lannisters pass because it's part of my plan actually." I think he wanted to impress everyone with a big reveal of strategic mastery, but when collaborating you need to explain stuff to people
and he’s also the one who convinced ned to let the stark kids to keep the pups and not including himself. it’s one of the first moments we see his dynamic with the rest of the starks like??😭
Robb is the only one who ever, seemingly, implies that they don't like the way Cat treats Jon. Robb EXPECTED Cat to be cruel to Jon when Jon went to say goodbye to Bran. When your kids expect you to be a cunt, you're a cunt. It's the truest measure of your character. This one brief exchange exposes years of psychological torment, and yet Jon lies and Robb is grateful to swallow the lie so he can try to view his mother more favorably. "It should have been you." "She was very kind."
This is a really great video. I love the books to death, but one of my complaints has always been that we never got to a Robb Pov. He's one of my favorite characters and would have given more insight on the Stark & Lannister conflict. I mean just imagine the whispering wood from Robb's Pov
Honestly! The fact we have to hear about Whispering Wood and all of Oxcross only in hindsight is a tragedy. I never realized how amazing victories they were until I watched Kings&Generals video on it and then I was mind blown A shame as well we didn’t get to see how Robb would have finished the war, better story this way but for how smart a commander he was it will always be a shame he died so young
I think George has done this deliberately, to make us see how the kings rule from the perspective of the ruled. None of the kings have PoVs, Stannis, Rob, Jeoffrey, Robert, all major characters with no PoV. I think it would reveal too much, eg. Jeoffrey always planned to kill Ned, biggest twist and major plot point in the story would have been revealed or hinted at way before it would have happened. If we can see through the king's mind (someone who can execute his intentions immediately) we'd get too far ahead of the plot. It would be more action focused and less reaction focused. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it was better (and sadly more tragic) to not see Rob's PoV. Don't get me wrong, I love him, but I trust George made the right call by keeping the kings non-PoV. I wonder if Jon will stop being POV whence he is revived as an ice or fire king, depending on who 'reserructs' him. Either way he will have the opposite element inside him anyway if R+L=J is true, which I truly think it is.
I think the greatest tragedy of Robb’s story is that it ended because his mother freed Jaime Lannister. If that hadn’t have happened, with the Blackfish guarding him at Riverun, the Red Wedding could never have happened. Robb’s plan to retake the North was as clever as his other battle plans. I’m sure it would’ve worked. If only…
It can't be overstated how much Lysa's neutrality screwed Robb over. Given that Lysa is Catlyn's sister and warned them about the Lannisters to begin with, he had every reasonable expectation of a large Vale army joining his cause, especially after several of his early victories. On the other hand even if Balon had not supported him, but merely bided his time it also might have been enough. Lastly if Ned had given Loras the mission to hunt the mountain and he either died or survived as a guerilla like Beric did, it might have driven a wedge between Tyrells and Lannisters that could've prevented their alliance.
Lysa and Littlefinger are the ones who started everything. Littlefinger gave Lysa tears of lys to poison Jon Aryn which she blames on the Lannisters knowing that honorable Ned must find the truth about his second father. Littlefinger is also likely the one who told Brandon Stark about what happened to Lyanna. Janos Slynt also laughed knowing that even Varys was surprised by Ned being ordered beheaded on the steps of Balors Sept. Slynt was Littlefingers and I think they convinced Joffrey to kill Ned when Cersei wanted him humbled and sent to the Watch. Littlefinger convinced Joffrey to hire the dancing dwarves knowing it would provoke Tyrion. Littlefinger also spread rumors about Joff being insane to Lady Tyrell and worked out with her to poison Joffrey with the strangler hidden in Sansas gem. Also Sansa tells only Dontos about marrying Wyllis Tyrell which he tells Littlefinger which he then tells Tywin who marries her to Tyrion. That guy just starts shit everywhere.
As any veteran Total War or Bannerlord player can tell you, winning a war isn’t just about having huge armies or holding onto territories. You can be kicking ass one minute, and next thing you know, you've been pushed back to your last stronghold and are surrounded by massive armies.
Of all the Starks, I identified with Robb the most. I'm the oldest in my family, and always felt a sense of duty and responsibility to take care of my younger siblings when my parents were not around because of work or other life pressures. So I completely felt for Robb when as a teenager he's thrust into the brutal world of Westerosi adulthood, having to make tough decisions without much life experience and limited guidance from people he can trust. He is a tragic character, who always tries to do what is best, to follow his father's footsteps, but who ultimately fails and pays a costly price despite his best efforts and intentions. As it did so many of us book readers, the Red Wedding broke me. I remember putting the book aside, shedding some tears and then picking up the book moments after. I still love Robb and mourn his loss. He was a hero in my eyes and one of the most decent characters in a harsh and unforgiving world.
I like your perspective on Robb's mindset. It's interesting how his attempts to emulate Ned serve him well early on, but then there's a turning point where his "what would my father do?" playbook starts to run out or not apply anymore, and that's where he starts to lose his grasp on the strategic situation. At the end of book 1, he ends up having kingship thrust upon him, which ends up being a serious obstacle to his efforts to find a way out of the war since from that point on he had to defend the interests and independence of his new kingdom. Crucially, that crown results from the culmination of a long contentious debate over who the Northmen and Riverlanders should ally with and support for the Iron Throne. It's glossed over in the book chapter, but clearly Robb didn't have an answer to that question in his mind, and so he was unable to guide the debate to a definitive conclusion. Comparing the situation Robb was in to Ned's situation during Robert's Rebellion, we realize that Robb's situation was much more treacherous and complex. Robb didn't have a "what would my father do?" answer for his situation because Ned had never faced anything that complicated (at least inasmuch as Ned had told the story of it), and it's not the sort of situation Ned would have been at home in and so would have instructed Robb in. So Robb ended up in a massively complex military and political situation that he was not fully prepared for, forced to decide his course of action almost entirely on his own. He did his best, and had decent reason for most of what he did, but he ultimately made mistakes and lost to others who were more experienced in that game.
@@kidgforce1 Wouldn't he? Ned agreed to an unexpected marriage to cement an alliance when his side desperately needed it. And I doubt Ned would have viewed the situation at the Twins any differently than Robb did - perhaps wanting to punish Walder Frey for not instantly going to his lord's aid, but recognizing the practical realities of the situation. Ned's brother Brandon might have recklessly tried to storm the Twins, but Ned always had a calmer, more level head.
One of the reasons Robb Stark might have clung so tightly to his father's notion of honour may be because of unresolved grief and trauma at his death. Remember he was on campaign and needed to 'get his head in the game' and thus was not able to process his grief and it remained with him as and open wound which only got wider with the supposed 'deaths' of Bran and Rickon. Not having time to grieve, he may have clung onto the memory of his father's honour as the man himself was forever lost to him. Unfortunately, that got him killed in the end. Robb Stark's story is one of gut-wrenching tragedy and I don't understand how some people seem to positively hate the kid. I think the story will end like Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus in which Titus Andronicus and his family had to go through abuse, rape and murder before emerging victorious in the end with one of his son's becoming Emperor of Rome (King Bran)
I‘m really enjoying all this Song of Ice and Fire content Robert! After watching House of the Dragon my passion for this kind of content slowly came back (after being so disappointed by the last season of Game of Thrones like so many fans were) I find myself clicking on your uploads almost immediatly 😊 Greetings from Germany 🙋♀️☺️
It's so good to have some ASOIAF content from IDG again! He's such a great creator, and all of his content is great, though this content will always be my favourite. Another good ASOIAF RUclipsr is Hills Alive, if you've not heard of her yet. She kept me going when there was a lack of ASOIAF deep-dives for a while, as well as David Lightbringer ☮️
In another tale, Robb would be the great cobquering hero. The dashing and brave young man avenging his father's death and vanquishing his enemy's. And this is what makes ASOIAF so amaezing. Robb is still a hero. In fact, the glimpses we get off his fear, grief and uncertainty make him even more heroic. Because despite it all, he continues to lead and push onward. However, his fate is not glory and victory. He is dragged down by the schemers and the dishonourable. His death not just a personal tragedy, but a tragedy for hope and goodness in Westeros.
My all time favourite video you have ever created. Robb was, is and always will be one of the most tragic characters ever created in any media and I've never been more upset about the death of a fictional hero, it was equally devastating to watch.
They should have the actor who played Robb return as Cregan Stark in HOTD. He was an excellent character I would have liked if we could have seen the Red Wedding thru his eyes. The Black Fish was the best general Robb could have had. A battlefield commander that has all the experience that Tywin or Ned had
On a reread recently I was blown away by the trick that Martin pulls by having Robb formulate a very good plan to retake the north and provides some hope after so long things being dire.
@@Anthony4949 But Ned was already married at that time. Ned DID do his duty of marrying the woman who was meant to marry his brother. Sight unseen! Robb should have insisted that the wedding be held right away, and tied Frey down with actual marriage vows. He might still have had an affair, but that wouldn't have bothered Walder Frey nearly so much as denying the MARRIAGE. Walder wanted the houses united and his daughters provided for. He didn't care if they were HAPPY.
@Michelle Young exactly.. people shit on Walder Frey for the Red Wedding but he was crossed over first big time. He let them cross the twins and made sure the lannisters thought he didn't and gave rob his army which was the biggest in the Riverlands with 4to5 thousand Men his son died at the whispering wood and his daughter and his house got basically spat on by Rob who I utterly detested by the way as annoying as his mother.. a hypocrite is all he was.. he then makes edmure do the thing he refused to do. Cut of Karstarks head aswell.. christ I'm amazed Roose bolton didn't kill him a lot sooner.
@@AuntLoopy123but unfortunately for Robb in a way, he cared for Jeyne Westerling’s honour. He thought no one would marry her now (which we later learn isn’t the case from her family’s deal with Tywin). Say Robb slept with a whore, he may still have felt bad but there wasn’t any noble lady’s honour to cover up here.
God dude, you’re such a great storyteller. You make it so interesting and make it make so much sense. I really appreciate your time and dedication to your craft.
The issue is that Edmure was a better ruler than Robb, given how you’ve presented. Robbs plan was to fight the Lannisters in the Westerlands without a supply chain, simply put it was a foolish plan that would have annihilated the army. Edmure was never told to let Tywin pass, and even further he beat not only the Mountain, by Tywin too in battle, all to defend his people from their brutality. Edmure was not a fool nor an idiot, he was a lord doing the best he could for his people, and an proof of Robbs youth.
I don't know about that second one. Nothing in Tywin's career implies he's more than an average commander, Caesar was remarkably lenient with his enemies (at least the Roman ones) and Tywin is a massive elitest as opposed to Caesar's populist appeal. If anything Tywin is more like Sulla except Sulla voluntarily gave up his power
During this video you managed to clear something up for me, just from showing me where the two lannister armies were when Robb first went South. I always wondered why they went across at the twins when they could of continued south to the cross roads, it never occurred to me when listening to the audiobooks that Tywin's army was north of it
People make too much, IMO, of Edmure throwing back The Lannisters. It wasn't Edmure's fault, it was Robb's for NOT telling his Bannerman and fellow Lord Paramount the plan. That's where the blame should lay, in all honesty.
@@luffyd.dragonslayer2954 if Rob hadn't done what he believed was the honorable thing re. owning his mistakes and marrying Jane Westerling he would not have died (how he did). I.E. he died in the pursuit of honour.
@@chazsawthat's some mental gymnastics you did there.. if he was really honourable he would've taken that duel with Jaime and save tens of thousands.. Ned took a battle with Arthur Dayne even tho he knew he was far inferior.. If robb was really honourable he would've married the Frey girl immediately and maybe make the Freys have a change of heart
Robb was a great commander but a bad politician. Generally all his military decisions were brilliant and he made next to no errors. Edmure's move was Robb's error because he never informed Edmure about his intentions. However Robb's political decisions were bad. I think that the worst one was to accept being named the King of Winter instead of kneeling in front of either Stannis or Renly. His inexperience and youth didn't allow him to refuse it which was a fatal mistake. This led to sending Theon to the Iron Islands, fall of Winterfell, "death" of his brothers, marriage to Jeyne, freeing of Jaime etc.
Yeah. If he had said, "My father bent the knee to Robert Baratheon, and recognized Stannis as Robert's heir. Stannis has no male heir, and his daughter will probably never be able to have children, so he should name Renly his heir. If Stannis names Renly his heir, I will bend the knee to Stannis, and keep my place as Lord Stark, Warden of the North. Then, when Stannis dies, I'll bend the knee to King Renly. Together, we can win this war! It serves no purpose, but only causes extra strife, to call myself King in the North. That won't get my father back, and it won't save my sisters, and it won't put the RIGHTFUL king on the throne." Things would have been much different, if he had refused to be called "King." He might not have been able to broker peace between Stannis and Renly, but at least neither one would have stood against him, and the Lannisters would have taken that into account.
@@AuntLoopy123 The North has a list going back three hundred years of grievances perpetrated by southerners who didn't care about them. It wasn't just Ned, or Brandon and Rickard. The Northern Lords would have seen the little wars waged every fifteen years and realized they in no way helped them. They only knelt for dragons, because fighting against dragons is stupid (Cregan thought so as well, which is why the North took so long to enter the Dance). They don't trust southerners, because they've been given excellent reason not to. The problem, at that point, was that Robb was half Tully, and the Riverlands is indefensible without aid due to geography. Robb... doesn't really have a choice in the matter once they've bent the knee. They won't follow him, at that point, if he plans to kneel to anything less than dragons. It's something that Cat didn't consider, in that as soon as most kings lose a crown, their heads usually come with it. (especially when dealing with Lannisters) Robb saw this clearly, which is pretty incredible. His true downfall, as I see it, was a failure of education. Both Ned and Cat knew how the world really worked, they'd lived it first hand, and they failed to impart any of that upon their eldest son and daughter. Sansa was woefully unprepared for anything that awaited her, being exactly what Cat had groomed her to be, and to this day not understanding that what she did was wrong and got people killed. Robb expected the other lords to be as honorable as his father, and anytime that proved otherwise he was surprised. It's why Tywin's ploy with the Westerlings worked so well. "He is his father's son." Tywin set the whole thing up to piss off the Freys, knowing what Robb would do. Jeyne's mother was obviously in on it. Sending a noble daughter to speak with a strange young man alone? After he took your castle? Who thought that was a good idea? Which means it was deliberate. I feel sorry for Jeyne, who was obviously used.
Great vid IDG , didn't get the notification the other day but happy to come across it now. With Robb , such a testament to GRRM for many of us to be so emotionally invested and subsequently heartbroken (in Robb's case ) and be such a full spectrum character that we feel we know so well ; despite not getting a POV / in their head like we do with other characters in ASoIaF. Mostly relying in this case on other POVs & events to get a judge of the character. Also , Robb is very much one of those many examples where GRRM likes to rip our hearts out with someone we are rooting for , so honorable and suited to leadership / achieving their goals ; only for it to end so tragically. In the end Robb's honor he inherited / took from Ned's example in part got the best of him , along with some circumstances out of his control like Edmure's lack of tactical understanding and Roose & others' treachery among more. Robb as a character quite easy to root for and venerate which makes his end all the more tragic. Especially achieving a great deal so quickly but suffering so much loss & trauma in the process as well as being thrust into such leadership and responsibility so young. Ultimately treachery and his own honor was his undoing , though with the honor / JW situation Robb was also very much manipulated imo. Emotionally (from much loss and trauma) and physically very much ailing at the time of their interactions (Robb & Jeyne) with potentially potions also at play. Robb was honorable to a fault but was also very much taken advantage of with the JW situation imo.
With respect to GRRM's regret, I think not having Robb's POV was a great decision. We don't need to be in everyone's head. And if anything, the latter books have been suffering from too many POVs. I love Robb,'s portrayal just the way it is. And in retrospect, nothing about his POV would have added to the course or understanding of the story.
I would love a short story about Robb's point of view in SoIaF. Since GRRM himself regrets not including it, he could maybe put small snippets about it in his Internet page, like Jim Butcher has done about Dresden Files.
I feel like Robb is the most medieval character in the whole story, that is, the most like a real historical figure. His successes are all things a medieval lord would be proud of, and his mistakes all happen while he's sort of hanging in the balance between chivalic ideals and human nature. As a figure who dies young after a stunning record of military success, he's very much in the same mold as Richard I, and Henry V and the Black Prince, where people can't help imagine what could've been, if things had gone a little different.
Surprised you didn’t highlight how the “What would Ned do” issue allowed Robb to pursue Jeyne. Had Robb known the truth about Ned’s “slip-up”, he could not have entertained the notions that “Even my father had a moment of weakness.” Ned’s choice to assume the dishonor that came with protecting Jon directly affects every member of Ned’s family. They all pay the price for Jon’s existence.
absolutely tragic that when jon's parantage is revealed, Ned's dishonor will be posthumously absolved, but robb's will never be. even if he married jeyne afterwards, he still made the mistake his father never really did
And it makes sense that Robb and Grey Wind bonded more due to being in several intense battles with him. Its interesting how combat or stressful situations lead them to think of their wolves. Like John and Ghost at the end of ADWD, Bran's dream immediately before Theon infiltrates Winterfell. To this end, I really wonder what Robb's relationship with Grey Wind was like after a few battles. Did Robb have wolf dreams? Did he realise his connection to the wolves more fully than his siblings?
Rob was the victim of the three treasons that Dany was warned about. once for blood and once for gold, once for love. The Karstarks betrayed Robb as revenge for beheading their Lord. The Freys and Boltons betrayed Robb after sealing a deal with the Lannister for money and marriages. Finally, Cat betrayed Robb by releasing Jamie out of desperate love of her girls. It’s so tragic.
I just gotta give you a big thank you for still posting game of thrones videos. You have passion and it shows. I love your content, thank you for feeding my endless love for the game of thrones lore!
Chadmure Tully did nothing wrong. Robb should have shared his plans with him, instead he just expected Edmure to allow Lannister plunder through the Riverlands murdering thousands of smallfolk Edmure cared about.
Exactly! Robb made a serious mistake in that regard since Edmure had to think of his own lands. People forget that Edmure is a Lord Paramount and he was owed at least THAT much of Robb's thought.
I love that we never get a POV from Robb, so we can never be sure about how he felt about being the first King in the North for hundreds of years while still being a teenager. Maybe he thought it was cool at first, or a just massive load he has to deal with for the wellbeing of his family and holdings.
Well-made video. Robb is one of my favourites in the story, without or with POV. One of the best cases of the show making its own version of the books, too, giving him so much screen time. oh and Richard Madden is my mancr-
Yep. This is why the leader is the one who is responsible. He knew what was up, and he didn't clue him in, because... reasons? It took just ONE explanation, and Edmure got it. But meanwhile, Edmure was watching his smallfolk being terrorized! That's not something a good lord can just sit back and watch without a good REASON.
@velcro8223 No it wasn't. If your orders are to defend Riverrun and stay put, you stay put and defend Riverrun. The only reason Edmure wasn't executed is because he was Robb's uncle.
the strangest thing is that Robb marrying Jayne & Sansa marrying Tyrion would have been perfect terms of a Stark Lannister peace, but no one went the extra mile to assure it. the daughter of a loyal Lannister bannerman would be Queen consort in the North, while a Stark lady would be Lady consort of Casterly Rock. the Freys? they were so low in the noble ladder that seccuring a wedding with Edmure Tully was already above their paygrade.
This was a great video. Robb really did well for such a young man and this being his first time in charge during such large and very costly events. Tywin just knew how to play the game. Robb knew how to be a soldier and win battles. Tywin knew how to run kingdoms and win wars. I just wish Robb would have been able to secure an alliance with Stannis and Rennley...maybe even the Martells. I just think Robb uniting them against the common hatred for the lannisters would have Tywin so nervous he would offer anything too anyone to get some internal turmoil.
IF he had been able to tell his bannermen, "I'm NOT King in the North. I'm WARDEN of the North, and will bend the knee to the PROPER king. My father meant for the throne to pass to Robert's rightful heir. Stannis has no male heir, and his daughter will likely never wed or bear a child. If Stannis names Renly his heir, I will bend the knee to them both, in their proper times. We should all be working together against the Lannisters, but we CANNOT work with the Baratheons, either of them, if you keep calling me King in the North. Just call me Lord Stark, if you please!" If he'd been able to say that, and enforce it, he probably could have brokered a peace between the Baratheon brothers, and the three armies together would have taken out even Tywin Lannister. Also, he should have told Walder Frey, "I'll marry your daughter TODAY, not wait until the war is won. As for Arya, I don't even know where she is, or if she's alive. But you have plenty of daughters, and I have plenty of bannermen. Also, there's my uncle to consider. We'll find another match, instead of Arya, and we'll have that wedding, as soon as possible. MINE will be TODAY." Frey would have either tipped his hand as being two-faced, and just setting up Robb with an oath he wasn't going to be able to keep, or he would have gone ahead with the marriage, and been completely tied by it.
Yes those are some good points. I just think the Dornish were completely left out and would have been very keen to wed back into the royal blood line and take revenge on Tywin. Oberyn would be a vaulable advisor and general. Quentin Martell was sent to see daenerys targaryen, to wed back into a more clear path to the throne...which maybe he doesn't do if approached by others? He has a daughter that would be heir to dorne, and two sons he could wed off? Maybe Tristain and Stannis's daughter? Or if Renley had a child?
I think there’s an important part of this where Rob starts to turn away from grey wind. In many ways it parallels Danny turning on get dragons & locking them away. Each has nothing but trouble after doing so.
I would love a POV of Robb stark just because I feel like he had the strongest bond with his wolf, even though Bran was the more powerful warg. Rob went to battle with his wolf, and he was the one who found them, so he probably has a small bond with the rest of the wolves except for Ghost who was found by Jon. Rob’s wolf dreams and his apparent rejection of his warring abilities is one of the most tragic parts of Robb’s story
The Tullys lost the war for him before it ever began. Lysa's neutrality while her childhood home was under attack, Hoster marrying both of his daughters to outsiders, and Edmure being mid twenties and unwed with no further male heirs with the Tully name. House Frey's allegiance should have been the first thing on Hoster's agenda after the rebellion, but he did nothing. It's a massive plothole that George left up solely so he could have the Red Wedding. A fall from a horse at any time could have ended House Tully.
This "arc" was one of the best from Martin because he gave us a family/faction we obviously felt sympathy for, gave it victories, legitimacy, brilliance, hope and then sowed all the elements that, at first, don't look that damaging but brought Robb's downfall in the end. I don't know if it could have been all dandy for him if no mistake were made but the Red Wedding wouldn't have happened if he kept the Freys and the Karstark on side, and Jaime prisoner. Roose Bolton would have been alone in his treacherous intents and Tywin Lannister couldn't have swayed him to rebel. The North is easily defensible but I wonder if he could have been able to defend the Riverlands. Betrayal could have come from there (event though the Lannisters thoroughly ravaged these lands). Anyway, thanks Robert for this insight ! TWOW really needs to come out soon ! I think we're approaching the point when discoursing has reached its limit :D
Thanks for this amazing perspective. Its kinda sad that the show failed a little, in showing these nuanced and complex sides of Rob better. A great character that could certainly be done better in showing more sides of his true personality.
You kind of forget Robb is one of the Stark kids in a way. Hes only like a year older than Jon but in my head he always seems older. Hes a teenager and look at all he accomplished and went through. Would have loved afew Robb chapters
@@Scipio_Americanus what part of this is obvious? I'm pointing out how young he is and I'd love some pov's? I think you're trying to be smart and failing
Robb had a great military mind, he was a strong competitor against much more experienced Tywin and Bolton’s. It was a terrible end for his story. He deserved better than he got. That’s the game of thrones you win or you die 😢
It's been so very long since I read the books, and well the last seasons of the HBO effort at telling this story really cloud my appreciation of the plot at this point in the story. So this really was the best video for me it reminded me of Robs story, so much of the book plot I'd just totally lost because of that awful mess on TV. Well done In Deep Geek
The westerlings actually being in line with the Lannisters that make sense too because in the first few chapters of FFC or the last few chapters of ASOAS (I can't remember) it's whenever tommen is king and they are having him sign a bunch of papers. They mention the westerlings being pardoned and that was always a moment where I took note of that
Unreal video, hope you know that you (as well as to a lesser extent alt shift x) are leading the way with GOT lore and storytelling/exploration. Truly remarkable stuff.
GRRM said in an interview that was one of his regrets.Not giving robb his own POV especially seeing how much the character became loved from the TV show.
Wonderful analysis. But you know, the fact that we can deduce so much about Robb, and his perspective, his triumphs and mistakes from the perspectives of other people, tells me that GRRM made the correct choice in not having him be a POV character. I think he is more interesting as someone who was very much on the minds of others. He himself may have been too pure and talented a young man to have been as interesting a POV character as those others through whose eyes we get to know him. GRRM was wise to write him exactly as he did.
I find it rather symbolic when you mention that robb always won any battle presented to him when faced with no other options. Its reminiscent of the saying that "Fear the animal backed into a corner, for it will fight for its life." Robb really was like that in many ways, tho clearly more strategic about it
Actualy he could've won în the first months of the war ,( in the books )after he captured Jaime he had 33k men vs Tywin 20k at Harennhal Robb also have more experience comanders and half of them ( the riverlords) have the advantege of fighting on their own teritory, while Tywin lords are all inexperience because they had stay out during Robert's rebelion. So the biggest of Robb 's mistake was to go in to the Westerlands instead of Harrenhall, because he has like 80% chanches of crashing Tywin in to battle
5:20 You missed the greatest line in the whole book series right before your quote. "we'll ride out to meet her. Won't that surprise her to see you a horse" Really puts the scene in a different light
Robb's story isn't only about Robb's success and failures. It's more about the challenges of holding together an alliance in the face of a stronger enemy. Robb had to be perfect to succeed (and he couldn't be perfect) while any mistake cost him dearly. Had the rebels unified, Tywin would have lost. Because of internal strife - and forces beyond Robb's control - they were unable to unite and so were destroyed separately. Meanwhile the Lannisters were powerful enough in their own right to be able to withstand each of their enemies individually, and they could afford to make mistakes and still survive. Tywin was shrewd and was able to stave off each threat as their alliances faltered and fell apart, and then he destroyed them piecemeal as he bribed and negotiated his own alliances. Had Robb and Tywin's situations been reversed, Robb would have won and Tywin would have lost. For Robb to win, Tywin would have needed to be as inept as the Mad King, and he wasn't.
Robb’s story breaks my heart. So much suffering for a boy.
That scene where Bran reaches out to him always makes me cry while I'm reading it. Poor dude had so much pressure on his shoulders.
@alpacapines8553 what part is that? Either I forgot about it or haven't made it to that part om the books?
@@tylermyers737 it's talked about @5:15
Rob is no boy!!
@@johnfarley2365 he's 15, that's a still a child
"Are they ever coming back?" Bran asked him.
"Yes," Robb said with such hope in his voice that Bran knew he was hearing his brother and not just Robb the Lord. "Mother will be home soon. Maybe we can ride out to meet her when she comes. Wouldn't that surprise her, to see you ahorse?" Even in the dark room, Bran could feel his brother's smile. "And afterward, we'll ride north to see the Wall. We won't even tell Jon we're coming, we'll just be there one day, you and me. It will be an adventure."
"An adventure," repeated Bran wistfully. He heard his brother sob. The room was so dark he could not see the tears on Robb's face, so he reached out and found his hand. Their fingers twined together.
By the gods I love Robb, Long Live the King of the North
@@SaltoDaKidLong Live The Young Wolf!
This is my own head cannon but I feel like when we're seeing this chapter we're actually seeing it through " future bran" so not actual bran in the moment of the story but the bran that is looking back on this moment
Theon was Robb's biggest mistake. He saw him as a friend rather than remembering that he was a hostage, the only thing stopping Balon Greyjoy from rising up in rebellion.
He was raised under the same roof and treated as if he was a Stark. That’s a false narrative. It was all due to a law.
Balon Greyjoy was a dolt . A strong wind could inspire him to rebel........
Balon was going to rebel regardless of Theon being with them or not. That's why he was already prepared and ready to attack. He was attacking the North no matter what.
@@thisguy8106 But why North? North is barren. Rivelands were prime target. Malister was fighting inland with his best men. Seagard and Cape of Eagles were undermanned.
@@thisguy8106 Balon was going to attack, but not necessarily the North. Both the Westerlands and the Riverlands were undermanned and easier targets with more wealth to plunder. Theon no longer being a hostage gave the Ironborn free reign to attack the North, especially given that Theon knew Robbs military plans and how unguarded the North had been left.
I would have loved to see more of Robb and his siblings together. See their relationships as they grow. Jon and Robb working together would have been a powerful force.
would make for an average run of the mill story tho
Those scenes with Robb and bran in the early chapters of A Game of Thrones are my personal favorite of all of those
I agree, even in the books as the siblings went their own separate ways, you could tell they deeply loved each other and really had good faith in each other.
Honestly think it will be told more if...IF...they make Snow
@Sion Barzad it would make a neat short story I think
I think NOT having a Robb POV is a testament to GRRM's writing... not much could be more human than to experience "If Only..." and we will forever lament this missing piece.
Very true
12:52 No, he can be blamed for Theon. He sent the hostage his father took back to the man from whom he was taken. Even if Theon didn't turn against him, he threw away his only leverage against the Greyjoys. Balon would be the type to either thrown his son into a cell or wouldn't trust him and keep him away from anything important, and his mother is aware of this and tells him so.
"If the Lannisters won’t make peace, I’ll have need of Lord Greyjoy’s longships.”
“You’ll have them sooner if you keep his son as hostage.”
“He’s been a hostage half his life.”
“For good reason,” Catelyn said. “Balon Greyjoy is not a man to be trusted. He wore a crown himself, remember, if only for a season. He may aspire to wear one again.”
Agreed. His embassy to Balon Greyjoy was an unmitigated disaster, brought on by Robb's misjudgments, period. There's a strong argument to be made (again mentioned by Cat) that Balon was going to attack the North anyway, but that attack could never have threatened Winterfell, Bran, or Rickon without Theon being part of it.
His other two embassies, though, made good sense. Renly was the most agreeable and (at the time) most powerful potential ally, and Cat most likely would have been able to secure that alliance if Stannis and Melisandre hadn't killed him. As for his embassy to King's Landing, that was much more of a ploy to make the Lannisters think he was sitting on his hands than a genuine peace effort. He intentionally sent a peace offer he knew Tyrion and Cersei wouldn't accept, letting them think they could tie him down in negotiations in order to disguise his plan to attack the Westerlands. So one of those embassies worked as intended, and the other almost certainly would have, except for factors he had no way to know about.
Balon clearly didn't care about Theon being held hostage or consider it much leverage over him. His plan was already in motion to attack the north prior to Theon being sent back anyway. Bad move by Rob sending Theon as envoy, but even if he hadn't, Balon was taking the north.
@@tehbakinblackI wonder why Balon seemed so unconcerned with Theon. You’d think he’d care considering the Ironborn are less likely to follow a woman like Asha than the rest of Westeros.
@@aaroncohen2700 Based on the Theon chapters on Pyke, it seems Balon did consider Asha as his heir. We never learn his thought process, or exactly why he seems to think there wouldn't be a problem with the ironborn following a woman, but his position seemed clear.
And yes, it's clear Balon was already assembling his forces to attack the north before Theon arrived and was going to do it whether or not the Starks still had their hostage. The critical difference with Theon being there to join in was that he was the only one who had the insider knowledge to plan the attack on Winterfell. Without him, the Ironborn attacks would have been a problem, but not a critical blow to Stark power.
The thing is, Robb isn’t a total dumbass like Balon.
He’s able to recognise that if Balon wants independence, which he knows he does, his best choice is to join with Robb and fight two rebellions.
Think about it, what’s the worst thing you can do when leading a rebellion? Attacking the only other faction whose goals don’t include subjecting and ruling over you, but in fact also want their independence.
Robb is defeated by Balon purely because Balon made the worst possible choice and doomed both of them in the long run.
"Edmure, I need you to hold Riverrun BUT let the Lannisters pass because it's part of my plan actually."
I think he wanted to impress everyone with a big reveal of strategic mastery, but when collaborating you need to explain stuff to people
No. Jon finds the dire wolf pups. He just gives Robb all the credit, as usual. Robb himself says later to Cat that Jon found them.
and he’s also the one who convinced ned to let the stark kids to keep the pups and not including himself. it’s one of the first moments we see his dynamic with the rest of the starks like??😭
Obviously, this video is set from robbs perspective
Robb is the only one who ever, seemingly, implies that they don't like the way Cat treats Jon. Robb EXPECTED Cat to be cruel to Jon when Jon went to say goodbye to Bran. When your kids expect you to be a cunt, you're a cunt. It's the truest measure of your character. This one brief exchange exposes years of psychological torment, and yet Jon lies and Robb is grateful to swallow the lie so he can try to view his mother more favorably.
"It should have been you."
"She was very kind."
I know it’s fictional, but Robb Starks story is truly tragic 😢
Super tragic.
is it fictional though? is it?
He deserved everything he got
@@AlanOLeary209ain't that the truth
@@gnawonknowledge who knows😉
This is a really great video. I love the books to death, but one of my complaints has always been that we never got to a Robb Pov. He's one of my favorite characters and would have given more insight on the Stark & Lannister conflict. I mean just imagine the whispering wood from Robb's Pov
Honestly! The fact we have to hear about Whispering Wood and all of Oxcross only in hindsight is a tragedy. I never realized how amazing victories they were until I watched Kings&Generals video on it and then I was mind blown
A shame as well we didn’t get to see how Robb would have finished the war, better story this way but for how smart a commander he was it will always be a shame he died so young
I think George has done this deliberately, to make us see how the kings rule from the perspective of the ruled. None of the kings have PoVs, Stannis, Rob, Jeoffrey, Robert, all major characters with no PoV. I think it would reveal too much, eg. Jeoffrey always planned to kill Ned, biggest twist and major plot point in the story would have been revealed or hinted at way before it would have happened. If we can see through the king's mind (someone who can execute his intentions immediately) we'd get too far ahead of the plot. It would be more action focused and less reaction focused.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it was better (and sadly more tragic) to not see Rob's PoV. Don't get me wrong, I love him, but I trust George made the right call by keeping the kings non-PoV.
I wonder if Jon will stop being POV whence he is revived as an ice or fire king, depending on who 'reserructs' him. Either way he will have the opposite element inside him anyway if R+L=J is true, which I truly think it is.
I think the greatest tragedy of Robb’s story is that it ended because his mother freed Jaime Lannister. If that hadn’t have happened, with the Blackfish guarding him at Riverun, the Red Wedding could never have happened. Robb’s plan to retake the North was as clever as his other battle plans. I’m sure it would’ve worked. If only…
It can't be overstated how much Lysa's neutrality screwed Robb over. Given that Lysa is Catlyn's sister and warned them about the Lannisters to begin with, he had every reasonable expectation of a large Vale army joining his cause, especially after several of his early victories. On the other hand even if Balon had not supported him, but merely bided his time it also might have been enough.
Lastly if Ned had given Loras the mission to hunt the mountain and he either died or survived as a guerilla like Beric did, it might have driven a wedge between Tyrells and Lannisters that could've prevented their alliance.
Lysa and Littlefinger are the ones who started everything. Littlefinger gave Lysa tears of lys to poison Jon Aryn which she blames on the Lannisters knowing that honorable Ned must find the truth about his second father.
Littlefinger is also likely the one who told Brandon Stark about what happened to Lyanna.
Janos Slynt also laughed knowing that even Varys was surprised by Ned being ordered beheaded on the steps of Balors Sept. Slynt was Littlefingers and I think they convinced Joffrey to kill Ned when Cersei wanted him humbled and sent to the Watch.
Littlefinger convinced Joffrey to hire the dancing dwarves knowing it would provoke Tyrion. Littlefinger also spread rumors about Joff being insane to Lady Tyrell and worked out with her to poison Joffrey with the strangler hidden in Sansas gem.
Also Sansa tells only Dontos about marrying Wyllis Tyrell which he tells Littlefinger which he then tells Tywin who marries her to Tyrion.
That guy just starts shit everywhere.
As any veteran Total War or Bannerlord player can tell you, winning a war isn’t just about having huge armies or holding onto territories. You can be kicking ass one minute, and next thing you know, you've been pushed back to your last stronghold and are surrounded by massive armies.
Plus don't eat yellow snow
And don't attend any weddings if you can help it.
Of all the Starks, I identified with Robb the most. I'm the oldest in my family, and always felt a sense of duty and responsibility to take care of my younger siblings when my parents were not around because of work or other life pressures. So I completely felt for Robb when as a teenager he's thrust into the brutal world of Westerosi adulthood, having to make tough decisions without much life experience and limited guidance from people he can trust. He is a tragic character, who always tries to do what is best, to follow his father's footsteps, but who ultimately fails and pays a costly price despite his best efforts and intentions. As it did so many of us book readers, the Red Wedding broke me. I remember putting the book aside, shedding some tears and then picking up the book moments after. I still love Robb and mourn his loss. He was a hero in my eyes and one of the most decent characters in a harsh and unforgiving world.
I like your perspective on Robb's mindset. It's interesting how his attempts to emulate Ned serve him well early on, but then there's a turning point where his "what would my father do?" playbook starts to run out or not apply anymore, and that's where he starts to lose his grasp on the strategic situation. At the end of book 1, he ends up having kingship thrust upon him, which ends up being a serious obstacle to his efforts to find a way out of the war since from that point on he had to defend the interests and independence of his new kingdom. Crucially, that crown results from the culmination of a long contentious debate over who the Northmen and Riverlanders should ally with and support for the Iron Throne. It's glossed over in the book chapter, but clearly Robb didn't have an answer to that question in his mind, and so he was unable to guide the debate to a definitive conclusion.
Comparing the situation Robb was in to Ned's situation during Robert's Rebellion, we realize that Robb's situation was much more treacherous and complex. Robb didn't have a "what would my father do?" answer for his situation because Ned had never faced anything that complicated (at least inasmuch as Ned had told the story of it), and it's not the sort of situation Ned would have been at home in and so would have instructed Robb in. So Robb ended up in a massively complex military and political situation that he was not fully prepared for, forced to decide his course of action almost entirely on his own. He did his best, and had decent reason for most of what he did, but he ultimately made mistakes and lost to others who were more experienced in that game.
On top of the fact that he was operating under a great deal of emotional turmoil and trying to keep it together in public.
@@Tyler_WAlso Robert's rebellion had political masterminds on the rebel side such as Jon arryn, hoster Tully etc.
Robb had catelyn.
Ned would not compromise to Walder Frey. Frey is bannerman to Riverrun and has to follow their orders. Otherwise Ned would attack and execute him.
@@kidgforce1 Wouldn't he? Ned agreed to an unexpected marriage to cement an alliance when his side desperately needed it. And I doubt Ned would have viewed the situation at the Twins any differently than Robb did - perhaps wanting to punish Walder Frey for not instantly going to his lord's aid, but recognizing the practical realities of the situation. Ned's brother Brandon might have recklessly tried to storm the Twins, but Ned always had a calmer, more level head.
@@Wolfeson28 Ned often was ignorant to the practical realities
I just read the first book, in which his father was killed. So I’m sure Robb will be the hero of the story. Let’s gooooooo Robb!!!
Troll 😒
Oooh you sweet summer child 😒😔😂
Hahahahaha😐
Bless his heart
yes definitely
I actually love the fact we don't get a Robb pov, it makes him that much more of a great character
in what way does not seeing his thoughts make him any better lmao
One of the reasons Robb Stark might have clung so tightly to his father's notion of honour may be because of unresolved grief and trauma at his death.
Remember he was on campaign and needed to 'get his head in the game' and thus was not able to process his grief and it remained with him as and open wound which only got wider with the supposed 'deaths' of Bran and Rickon.
Not having time to grieve, he may have clung onto the memory of his father's honour as the man himself was forever lost to him.
Unfortunately, that got him killed in the end.
Robb Stark's story is one of gut-wrenching tragedy and I don't understand how some people seem to positively hate the kid.
I think the story will end like Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus in which Titus Andronicus and his family had to go through abuse, rape and murder before emerging victorious in the end with one of his son's becoming Emperor of Rome (King Bran)
OH, golly, I hope not! That's the bloodiest play! I don't want my beloved Starks to suffer THAT much!
@@AuntLoopy123 Lucius became Emperor in the end 😂 and Tamora and her hellspawn were killed
@@AuntLoopy123 Have you not been reading ASOIAF so far?
I‘m really enjoying all this Song of Ice and Fire content Robert! After watching House of the Dragon my passion for this kind of content slowly came back (after being so disappointed by the last season of Game of Thrones like so many fans were)
I find myself clicking on your uploads almost immediatly 😊
Greetings from Germany 🙋♀️☺️
It's so good to have some ASOIAF content from IDG again! He's such a great creator, and all of his content is great, though this content will always be my favourite. Another good ASOIAF RUclipsr is Hills Alive, if you've not heard of her yet. She kept me going when there was a lack of ASOIAF deep-dives for a while, as well as David Lightbringer ☮️
In another tale, Robb would be the great cobquering hero. The dashing and brave young man avenging his father's death and vanquishing his enemy's.
And this is what makes ASOIAF so amaezing. Robb is still a hero. In fact, the glimpses we get off his fear, grief and uncertainty make him even more heroic. Because despite it all, he continues to lead and push onward.
However, his fate is not glory and victory. He is dragged down by the schemers and the dishonourable. His death not just a personal tragedy, but a tragedy for hope and goodness in Westeros.
My all time favourite video you have ever created. Robb was, is and always will be one of the most tragic characters ever created in any media and I've never been more upset about the death of a fictional hero, it was equally devastating to watch.
They should have the actor who played Robb return as Cregan Stark in HOTD. He was an excellent character I would have liked if we could have seen the Red Wedding thru his eyes.
The Black Fish was the best general Robb could have had. A battlefield commander that has all the experience that Tywin or Ned had
Don’t you think Richard Madden is a bit too small to play Cregan Stark?
@@jezebullsand too old. Cregan is around Jace’s age if not a bit older.
@@turtleguyfanCregan's a bit older than Jace. He's in his 20s, which is crazy because art from the Dance period has him look like a 40 year old man.
@@AaronGuestI think Northeners just look older than everyone else. Ned too looked older than his age.
@hi-ls6lt They don't just look older. In the show Ned was older than his book version. They aged everyone up on the show.
I loved this. He’s my favorite character in the series and I’m happy to see him getting love from my favorite asoiaf content creator!
On a reread recently I was blown away by the trick that Martin pulls by having Robb formulate a very good plan to retake the north and provides some hope after so long things being dire.
Great to see you expand this series to ASOIAF! Would love to see you do Renly, Olenna and Tywin next.
" Love is the Death of Duty "
Rob should have known his father would never have broken a vow to marry like he did.
False. The Starks thought Ned had a bastard son due to being unfaithful. No one knew at that point Ned actually wasn’t Jon’s father
@@Anthony4949 But Ned was already married at that time. Ned DID do his duty of marrying the woman who was meant to marry his brother. Sight unseen!
Robb should have insisted that the wedding be held right away, and tied Frey down with actual marriage vows.
He might still have had an affair, but that wouldn't have bothered Walder Frey nearly so much as denying the MARRIAGE. Walder wanted the houses united and his daughters provided for. He didn't care if they were HAPPY.
@Michelle Young exactly.. people shit on Walder Frey for the Red Wedding but he was crossed over first big time. He let them cross the twins and made sure the lannisters thought he didn't and gave rob his army which was the biggest in the Riverlands with 4to5 thousand Men his son died at the whispering wood and his daughter and his house got basically spat on by Rob who I utterly detested by the way as annoying as his mother.. a hypocrite is all he was.. he then makes edmure do the thing he refused to do. Cut of Karstarks head aswell.. christ I'm amazed Roose bolton didn't kill him a lot sooner.
@@AuntLoopy123but unfortunately for Robb in a way, he cared for Jeyne Westerling’s honour. He thought no one would marry her now (which we later learn isn’t the case from her family’s deal with Tywin). Say Robb slept with a whore, he may still have felt bad but there wasn’t any noble lady’s honour to cover up here.
God dude, you’re such a great storyteller.
You make it so interesting and make it make so much sense.
I really appreciate your time and dedication to your craft.
The Starks each have such tragic stories. Robb does the best he can; I always forget he was just a baby when this all started
The issue is that Edmure was a better ruler than Robb, given how you’ve presented. Robbs plan was to fight the Lannisters in the Westerlands without a supply chain, simply put it was a foolish plan that would have annihilated the army. Edmure was never told to let Tywin pass, and even further he beat not only the Mountain, by Tywin too in battle, all to defend his people from their brutality. Edmure was not a fool nor an idiot, he was a lord doing the best he could for his people, and an proof of Robbs youth.
Robb is Alexander the Great and Tywin is Julius Caesar, almost to the finest detail. Great video as always.
I don't know about that second one. Nothing in Tywin's career implies he's more than an average commander, Caesar was remarkably lenient with his enemies (at least the Roman ones) and Tywin is a massive elitest as opposed to Caesar's populist appeal. If anything Tywin is more like Sulla except Sulla voluntarily gave up his power
Tywin is nothing like Ceasar.
Joel couldn't be any more wrong.
During this video you managed to clear something up for me, just from showing me where the two lannister armies were when Robb first went South. I always wondered why they went across at the twins when they could of continued south to the cross roads, it never occurred to me when listening to the audiobooks that Tywin's army was north of it
Excellent breakdown which made me consider some of my own opinions on Robb.
People make too much, IMO, of Edmure throwing back The Lannisters. It wasn't Edmure's fault, it was Robb's for NOT telling his Bannerman and fellow Lord Paramount the plan. That's where the blame should lay, in all honesty.
Rob does everything his father does, including dying an otherwise preventable death in the pursuit of honour.
Oof
Ooof
But Robb was not honourable is the biggest point
@@luffyd.dragonslayer2954 if Rob hadn't done what he believed was the honorable thing re. owning his mistakes and marrying Jane Westerling he would not have died (how he did). I.E. he died in the pursuit of honour.
@@chazsawthat's some mental gymnastics you did there.. if he was really honourable he would've taken that duel with Jaime and save tens of thousands.. Ned took a battle with Arthur Dayne even tho he knew he was far inferior.. If robb was really honourable he would've married the Frey girl immediately and maybe make the Freys have a change of heart
Great, great video. Robb was arguably my favorite character in the first 3 books despite having no POV chapters.
Robb was a great commander but a bad politician.
Generally all his military decisions were brilliant and he made next to no errors. Edmure's move was Robb's error because he never informed Edmure about his intentions.
However Robb's political decisions were bad. I think that the worst one was to accept being named the King of Winter instead of kneeling in front of either Stannis or Renly. His inexperience and youth didn't allow him to refuse it which was a fatal mistake. This led to sending Theon to the Iron Islands, fall of Winterfell, "death" of his brothers, marriage to Jeyne, freeing of Jaime etc.
Yeah. If he had said, "My father bent the knee to Robert Baratheon, and recognized Stannis as Robert's heir. Stannis has no male heir, and his daughter will probably never be able to have children, so he should name Renly his heir. If Stannis names Renly his heir, I will bend the knee to Stannis, and keep my place as Lord Stark, Warden of the North. Then, when Stannis dies, I'll bend the knee to King Renly. Together, we can win this war! It serves no purpose, but only causes extra strife, to call myself King in the North. That won't get my father back, and it won't save my sisters, and it won't put the RIGHTFUL king on the throne."
Things would have been much different, if he had refused to be called "King." He might not have been able to broker peace between Stannis and Renly, but at least neither one would have stood against him, and the Lannisters would have taken that into account.
@@AuntLoopy123 The North has a list going back three hundred years of grievances perpetrated by southerners who didn't care about them. It wasn't just Ned, or Brandon and Rickard. The Northern Lords would have seen the little wars waged every fifteen years and realized they in no way helped them. They only knelt for dragons, because fighting against dragons is stupid (Cregan thought so as well, which is why the North took so long to enter the Dance). They don't trust southerners, because they've been given excellent reason not to. The problem, at that point, was that Robb was half Tully, and the Riverlands is indefensible without aid due to geography.
Robb... doesn't really have a choice in the matter once they've bent the knee. They won't follow him, at that point, if he plans to kneel to anything less than dragons. It's something that Cat didn't consider, in that as soon as most kings lose a crown, their heads usually come with it. (especially when dealing with Lannisters) Robb saw this clearly, which is pretty incredible.
His true downfall, as I see it, was a failure of education. Both Ned and Cat knew how the world really worked, they'd lived it first hand, and they failed to impart any of that upon their eldest son and daughter. Sansa was woefully unprepared for anything that awaited her, being exactly what Cat had groomed her to be, and to this day not understanding that what she did was wrong and got people killed. Robb expected the other lords to be as honorable as his father, and anytime that proved otherwise he was surprised. It's why Tywin's ploy with the Westerlings worked so well.
"He is his father's son."
Tywin set the whole thing up to piss off the Freys, knowing what Robb would do. Jeyne's mother was obviously in on it. Sending a noble daughter to speak with a strange young man alone? After he took your castle? Who thought that was a good idea? Which means it was deliberate. I feel sorry for Jeyne, who was obviously used.
Great vid IDG , didn't get the notification the other day but happy to come across it now. With Robb , such a testament to GRRM for many of us to be so emotionally invested and subsequently heartbroken (in Robb's case ) and be such a full spectrum character that we feel we know so well ; despite not getting a POV / in their head like we do with other characters in ASoIaF. Mostly relying in this case on other POVs & events to get a judge of the character. Also , Robb is very much one of those many examples where GRRM likes to rip our hearts out with someone we are rooting for , so honorable and suited to leadership / achieving their goals ; only for it to end so tragically. In the end Robb's honor he inherited / took from Ned's example in part got the best of him , along with some circumstances out of his control like Edmure's lack of tactical understanding and Roose & others' treachery among more.
Robb as a character quite easy to root for and venerate which makes his end all the more tragic. Especially achieving a great deal so quickly but suffering so much loss & trauma in the process as well as being thrust into such leadership and responsibility so young. Ultimately treachery and his own honor was his undoing , though with the honor / JW situation Robb was also very much manipulated imo. Emotionally (from much loss and trauma) and physically very much ailing at the time of their interactions (Robb & Jeyne) with potentially potions also at play. Robb was honorable to a fault but was also very much taken advantage of with the JW situation imo.
thanks, Robert
I loved this video! Robb’s perspective has interested me in the past. I’m glad to see it layer out so well.
Brilliant video
I like this idea for a video! Perspectives for non-POV characters would be super interesting
With respect to GRRM's regret, I think not having Robb's POV was a great decision. We don't need to be in everyone's head. And if anything, the latter books have been suffering from too many POVs. I love Robb,'s portrayal just the way it is. And in retrospect, nothing about his POV would have added to the course or understanding of the story.
I would love a short story about Robb's point of view in SoIaF. Since GRRM himself regrets not including it, he could maybe put small snippets about it in his Internet page, like Jim Butcher has done about Dresden Files.
This has to be the best In deep Geek tale I've heard!!!
I feel like Robb is the most medieval character in the whole story, that is, the most like a real historical figure. His successes are all things a medieval lord would be proud of, and his mistakes all happen while he's sort of hanging in the balance between chivalic ideals and human nature. As a figure who dies young after a stunning record of military success, he's very much in the same mold as Richard I, and Henry V and the Black Prince, where people can't help imagine what could've been, if things had gone a little different.
I would love to hear the audiobooks read by you, you have such an amazing voice
Surprised you didn’t highlight how the “What would Ned do” issue allowed Robb to pursue Jeyne. Had Robb known the truth about Ned’s “slip-up”, he could not have entertained the notions that “Even my father had a moment of weakness.” Ned’s choice to assume the dishonor that came with protecting Jon directly affects every member of Ned’s family. They all pay the price for Jon’s existence.
absolutely tragic that when jon's parantage is revealed, Ned's dishonor will be posthumously absolved, but robb's will never be. even if he married jeyne afterwards, he still made the mistake his father never really did
And it makes sense that Robb and Grey Wind bonded more due to being in several intense battles with him. Its interesting how combat or stressful situations lead them to think of their wolves. Like John and Ghost at the end of ADWD, Bran's dream immediately before Theon infiltrates Winterfell. To this end, I really wonder what Robb's relationship with Grey Wind was like after a few battles. Did Robb have wolf dreams? Did he realise his connection to the wolves more fully than his siblings?
Rob was the victim of the three treasons that Dany was warned about. once for blood and once for gold, once for love. The Karstarks betrayed Robb as revenge for beheading their Lord. The Freys and Boltons betrayed Robb after sealing a deal with the Lannister for money and marriages. Finally, Cat betrayed Robb by releasing Jamie out of desperate love of her girls. It’s so tragic.
How didn't I realize that? That's so true
I Wonder how it will go w' Danny
You did a good job with this video. An awesome perspective!
To me, the tragedy of Robb Stark is one of the greatest bits of ASoIaF - the righteous stand no chance in a world as cruel as that one :/
Some POV of Rob warging into Grey Wind in battle would have been pretty intense! 🧔🐺
SWEET! your best video series branches out to more book series!!
I just gotta give you a big thank you for still posting game of thrones videos. You have passion and it shows. I love your content, thank you for feeding my endless love for the game of thrones lore!
Chadmure Tully did nothing wrong. Robb should have shared his plans with him, instead he just expected Edmure to allow Lannister plunder through the Riverlands murdering thousands of smallfolk Edmure cared about.
Exactly! Robb made a serious mistake in that regard since Edmure had to think of his own lands. People forget that Edmure is a Lord Paramount and he was owed at least THAT much of Robb's thought.
I love that we never get a POV from Robb, so we can never be sure about how he felt about being the first King in the North for hundreds of years while still being a teenager. Maybe he thought it was cool at first, or a just massive load he has to deal with for the wellbeing of his family and holdings.
Well-made video. Robb is one of my favourites in the story, without or with POV. One of the best cases of the show making its own version of the books, too, giving him so much screen time. oh and Richard Madden is my mancr-
Robb is such a great and tragic character probably my favorite stark
I love Robb (both TV and Book). Such a great character with such a sad end. I would have loved some chapters from his POV.
Robb is completely to blame for Edmures bad call. Robb left him in charge of significant forces but didn't let him in on the plan.
Yep. This is why the leader is the one who is responsible. He knew what was up, and he didn't clue him in, because... reasons?
It took just ONE explanation, and Edmure got it. But meanwhile, Edmure was watching his smallfolk being terrorized! That's not something a good lord can just sit back and watch without a good REASON.
How??? Robb gave him clear orders to stay at Riverrun and defend it, and Edmure disobeyed those orders. That's Edmure's fault.
@@AaronGuest He did defend it. Enemy never made it across the river. Mission accomplished with bonus points.
@velcro8223 No it wasn't. If your orders are to defend Riverrun and stay put, you stay put and defend Riverrun. The only reason Edmure wasn't executed is because he was Robb's uncle.
the strangest thing is that Robb marrying Jayne & Sansa marrying Tyrion would have been perfect terms of a Stark Lannister peace, but no one went the extra mile to assure it.
the daughter of a loyal Lannister bannerman would be Queen consort in the North, while a Stark lady would be Lady consort of Casterly Rock.
the Freys? they were so low in the noble ladder that seccuring a wedding with Edmure Tully was already above their paygrade.
This was a great video. Robb really did well for such a young man and this being his first time in charge during such large and very costly events. Tywin just knew how to play the game. Robb knew how to be a soldier and win battles. Tywin knew how to run kingdoms and win wars.
I just wish Robb would have been able to secure an alliance with Stannis and Rennley...maybe even the Martells. I just think Robb uniting them against the common hatred for the lannisters would have Tywin so nervous he would offer anything too anyone to get some internal turmoil.
IF he had been able to tell his bannermen, "I'm NOT King in the North. I'm WARDEN of the North, and will bend the knee to the PROPER king. My father meant for the throne to pass to Robert's rightful heir. Stannis has no male heir, and his daughter will likely never wed or bear a child. If Stannis names Renly his heir, I will bend the knee to them both, in their proper times. We should all be working together against the Lannisters, but we CANNOT work with the Baratheons, either of them, if you keep calling me King in the North. Just call me Lord Stark, if you please!" If he'd been able to say that, and enforce it, he probably could have brokered a peace between the Baratheon brothers, and the three armies together would have taken out even Tywin Lannister.
Also, he should have told Walder Frey, "I'll marry your daughter TODAY, not wait until the war is won. As for Arya, I don't even know where she is, or if she's alive. But you have plenty of daughters, and I have plenty of bannermen. Also, there's my uncle to consider. We'll find another match, instead of Arya, and we'll have that wedding, as soon as possible. MINE will be TODAY." Frey would have either tipped his hand as being two-faced, and just setting up Robb with an oath he wasn't going to be able to keep, or he would have gone ahead with the marriage, and been completely tied by it.
Yes those are some good points. I just think the Dornish were completely left out and would have been very keen to wed back into the royal blood line and take revenge on Tywin. Oberyn would be a vaulable advisor and general. Quentin Martell was sent to see daenerys targaryen, to wed back into a more clear path to the throne...which maybe he doesn't do if approached by others? He has a daughter that would be heir to dorne, and two sons he could wed off? Maybe Tristain and Stannis's daughter? Or if Renley had a child?
I think there’s an important part of this where Rob starts to turn away from grey wind. In many ways it parallels Danny turning on get dragons & locking them away. Each has nothing but trouble after doing so.
I would love a POV of Robb stark just because I feel like he had the strongest bond with his wolf, even though Bran was the more powerful warg. Rob went to battle with his wolf, and he was the one who found them, so he probably has a small bond with the rest of the wolves except for Ghost who was found by Jon. Rob’s wolf dreams and his apparent rejection of his warring abilities is one of the most tragic parts of Robb’s story
Robb was very screwed by the Vale not being on side.
The Tullys lost the war for him before it ever began. Lysa's neutrality while her childhood home was under attack, Hoster marrying both of his daughters to outsiders, and Edmure being mid twenties and unwed with no further male heirs with the Tully name. House Frey's allegiance should have been the first thing on Hoster's agenda after the rebellion, but he did nothing. It's a massive plothole that George left up solely so he could have the Red Wedding. A fall from a horse at any time could have ended House Tully.
This "arc" was one of the best from Martin because he gave us a family/faction we obviously felt sympathy for, gave it victories, legitimacy, brilliance, hope and then sowed all the elements that, at first, don't look that damaging but brought Robb's downfall in the end.
I don't know if it could have been all dandy for him if no mistake were made but the Red Wedding wouldn't have happened if he kept the Freys and the Karstark on side, and Jaime prisoner. Roose Bolton would have been alone in his treacherous intents and Tywin Lannister couldn't have swayed him to rebel. The North is easily defensible but I wonder if he could have been able to defend the Riverlands. Betrayal could have come from there (event though the Lannisters thoroughly ravaged these lands).
Anyway, thanks Robert for this insight ! TWOW really needs to come out soon ! I think we're approaching the point when discoursing has reached its limit :D
Thanks for this amazing perspective. Its kinda sad that the show failed a little, in showing these nuanced and complex sides of Rob better.
A great character that could certainly be done better in showing more sides of his true personality.
Amazing! Some of that art, one pic of Rob was quite fabulous don’t know who did it. Your vids are spectacular
Love these Perspective videos. Thanks Robert
I would of loved to see a Robb POV. Poor lad was probably under so much stress and constantly doubting himself but still pushing on.
If we had any POV of Rob Stark, the Red Wedding would have been even harder to stomach
Thank you so much for bringing this format to ASOIAF
How should we assess Robb Stark? Well, this green 14 year old gave Tywin Lannister a fright.
Not bad going.
That's true. He was SO young. Just getting started, and way too inexperienced to be expected to do everything right.
Excellently summarised and great insight
You kind of forget Robb is one of the Stark kids in a way. Hes only like a year older than Jon but in my head he always seems older. Hes a teenager and look at all he accomplished and went through. Would have loved afew Robb chapters
Great analysis captain obvious🙄
@@Scipio_Americanus what part of this is obvious? I'm pointing out how young he is and I'd love some pov's? I think you're trying to be smart and failing
Robb had a great military mind, he was a strong competitor against much more experienced Tywin and Bolton’s. It was a terrible end for his story. He deserved better than he got. That’s the game of thrones you win or you die 😢
Great Video!
You do an excellent job with these my friend
Can’t watch this, hurts my heart too much.
The King of the North in my heart forever. Love you 5ever Rob.
It's been so very long since I read the books, and well the last seasons of the HBO effort at telling this story really cloud my appreciation of the plot at this point in the story. So this really was the best video for me it reminded me of Robs story, so much of the book plot I'd just totally lost because of that awful mess on TV. Well done In Deep Geek
Love all the little important details you highlight bro
The westerlings actually being in line with the Lannisters that make sense too because in the first few chapters of FFC or the last few chapters of ASOAS (I can't remember) it's whenever tommen is king and they are having him sign a bunch of papers.
They mention the westerlings being pardoned and that was always a moment where I took note of that
masterfully done
Unreal video, hope you know that you (as well as to a lesser extent alt shift x) are leading the way with GOT lore and storytelling/exploration. Truly remarkable stuff.
Excellent summary - well done!
GRRM said in an interview that was one of his regrets.Not giving robb his own POV especially seeing how much the character became loved from the TV show.
My favorite Stark even from my first reading. I hate that he gets so overshadowed by his siblings in the grand scheme of things.
I wish Robbed Stark was still alive .
This honestly absolutely perfect imo
Wonderful analysis. But you know, the fact that we can deduce so much about Robb, and his perspective, his triumphs and mistakes from the perspectives of other people, tells me that GRRM made the correct choice in not having him be a POV character. I think he is more interesting as someone who was very much on the minds of others. He himself may have been too pure and talented a young man to have been as interesting a POV character as those others through whose eyes we get to know him. GRRM was wise to write him exactly as he did.
Strategy is in part about choosing which battles are determined to be fought, and masterminding that
THE KING IN THE NORTH! THE KING IN THE NORTH! THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!!
Always wonders what would of happened if Rob and John both ran everything together as the Brother/ Cousins they were.
Thanks!
I find it rather symbolic when you mention that robb always won any battle presented to him when faced with no other options. Its reminiscent of the saying that "Fear the animal backed into a corner, for it will fight for its life." Robb really was like that in many ways, tho clearly more strategic about it
Actualy he could've won în the first months of the war ,( in the books )after he captured Jaime he had 33k men vs Tywin 20k at Harennhal
Robb also have more experience comanders and half of them ( the riverlords) have the advantege of fighting on their own teritory, while Tywin lords are all inexperience because they had stay out during Robert's rebelion.
So the biggest of Robb 's mistake was to go in to the Westerlands instead of Harrenhall, because he has like 80% chanches of crashing Tywin in to battle
Finally some love for robb, more pls 💯💯
5:20
You missed the greatest line in the whole book series right before your quote. "we'll ride out to meet her. Won't that surprise her to see you a horse"
Really puts the scene in a different light
Rob and Ned are part of the message that Honor requires sacrifice so much so that it often isnt necessarily a good idea
Really great analysis as always.
Robb's story isn't only about Robb's success and failures. It's more about the challenges of holding together an alliance in the face of a stronger enemy. Robb had to be perfect to succeed (and he couldn't be perfect) while any mistake cost him dearly. Had the rebels unified, Tywin would have lost. Because of internal strife - and forces beyond Robb's control - they were unable to unite and so were destroyed separately.
Meanwhile the Lannisters were powerful enough in their own right to be able to withstand each of their enemies individually, and they could afford to make mistakes and still survive. Tywin was shrewd and was able to stave off each threat as their alliances faltered and fell apart, and then he destroyed them piecemeal as he bribed and negotiated his own alliances.
Had Robb and Tywin's situations been reversed, Robb would have won and Tywin would have lost.
For Robb to win, Tywin would have needed to be as inept as the Mad King, and he wasn't.