Martin was so cheeky with this... Explicitly saying the name of the poison was "tears of Lys", while also telling the reader that his wife was the only character named Lysa - an unstable woman overly attached to her son, whom would be separated from her, thus very likely causing her to produce lots of... tears of Lysa. He could have named the poison literally whatever, or even omit it name completely, but he chose specifically that wordplay, excellent.
Even if you miss that connection, the way he presents that particular syllable, lys, it's always at least a little sinister and meant to misdirect not foster trust.
Literally any time there's a question of "who killed them" in any of the books, my first thought is always Little Finger, even if it doesn't seem even remotely possible.
On top of that, I think Jon Arryn is technically Ned's brother-in-law twice (or at least brother-in-law-in-law), which sounds weird since that means Ned was fostered and raised by his brother-in-law, or, put another way, he married his foster-aunt-in-law. They're like the Targaryens of technicalities.
@@stingerjohnny9951 Jon = Ned's foster father, therefore Jon is in a sense the father of Catelyn's husband, which is what a father-in-law is. Not in the usual sense, obviously, but in-laws aren't blood relatives anyway (at least in *most* family trees).
People always get Ned so wrong. He didn't warn Cersei because it was honourable. The honourable thing according to Westerosi customs would have been to deliver her to the king straight away for committing treason--there's no honour in helping a traitor escape. He did it to save her children from Robert's wrath. As he tried to save Dany when Robert ordered her assassination, and as he saved Jon. He has a clear trauma from seeing the Targaryen children after the sack of King's Landing and hates the idea of killing children. Stannis or Jon Arryn would have satisfied honour and delivered Cersei to Robert, but Ned chose mercy over honour. He never was the stickler for honour he and others claimed him to be, not in his actions. He elegantly leveraged that reputation to sell a life lie (Jon being his bastard), but whenever he is actually faced with choosing honour over another good (mercy, his family, saving someone innocent), he chooses against honour.
that's why when I rewatched his execution I was surprised because I could swear he didn't lie to say he was a traitor who wanted to seize the throne for himself (what Sansa and Cersei wanted so he could live) but he actually did. I remembered he refused to lie and said Joffrey was a bastard and died defending the truth but I was wrong. And he should've done that since he dies anyway si at least he could've gone with a badass line about the king being born of incest and the queen being a snake or something like that.
@@ManudyneWow, that's interesting!!! It's funny when our memories are proven to be false, isn't it? It happens to all of us. True, Ned could have chosen to defiantly tell the truth of Cersei's children's parentage. I guess Ned must have believed that he would be spared, as he was promised. Apparently he didn't forsee the possibility of Joffery calling for his death regardless.
Well said. And what Ned said in season 1 supports your argument. When Varys asked Ned what madness drove him to tell Cersei that he had discovered the truth of the twincest a d bastardy, he replies, "The madness of mercy."
It's such a great reveal in the books when Lysa lets the truth slip in A Storm of Swords, after the mystery has dragged on for so many pages and you'd thought it solved and unsolved so many times, and starting to think you'd never get the truth. One of those moments when you drop the book and yell "motherfucker!" and everyone looks at you strangely.
Was it a mystery? Pretty sure most readers thought it was Cersei, having been directed there by the text since early in the saga. At the time of this reveal, no one out there was wondering who killed Jon Arryn. We all thought we knew. That's what makes this reveal so brilliant: the best twists provide answers to questions you didn't know you had. The Sixth Sense is a perfect example of that.
@MusMasi me too. Maybe Cersei/Jaime were involved, but I don't think so. Someone did "advise" Pycele to let him die. He even got rid of the maester taking care of Jon. And Littlefinger really had no reason to help. He just loves to start shit. Maybe he did have a plan to go for Lysa, marriage, at some point, but I think most of it was her doing because she didn't want Robin to be fostered with Tywin. Or anyone. Thanks for reminding me which book. As many times as I've read them, I SHOULD remember🙋🏽♀️✌️
It’s quite good because it’s one of the few times the reader gets a real glimpse at how deep some of the plots the POVs aren’t aware of go. No one was thinking Lysa was the murderer (in story), and we never would’ve know if not for her confession. It makes you realize that even if the characters have settled on an answer for the mystery, that resolution may not be the truth.
jon arryns murder is actually hilarious littlefinger manipulates his side hoe into murdering her husband just for shits and giggles, meanwhile jon’s investigating the queen and the fact she’s fucking her brother and that her kids are bastards of incest, the fact that he gets poisoned leads pycelle to assume cerci did it so they don’t save his life and try to cover up his death it’s this clusterfuck of different plots that all intertwine and a great writing from george
He might be, the way Harrold Hardyng is described to look like Jon Arryn when he was young, against how Robyn is described, kinda puts that into question.
Considering the fact that Jon Arryn hadn't been able to produce a single child until he married Lysa - and that Lysa had previously had a child by Petr - I'd say it's a 99,9% certainty Robin is Littlefinger's son.
I always wondered why Arryn's last words were "the seed is strong". I figure if he were dying anyway, wouldn't he save a lot of time and headache and just straight said that Cersie is having an affair with Jamie and her kids are bastards?
You'd think! But maybe he was too delirious to do so. Or it could be that Lysa didn't relay his final words accurately, perhaps even at Littlefinger's behest. Remember, Baelish was setting up Cersei as his fall guy for Arryn's demise. Another possibility is that all Jon Arryn's research into hair colors raised some questions in his mind about Sweetrobin's paternity... and Lysa *definitely* wouldn't have revealed anything Arryn uttered on his deathbed in that regard.
It’s also referring to robin Arryn not being his son. (Arryns usually are very strong and blonde like harry the heir, and robin, well robin is little fingers son)
Cersie (In her POV chapters) wonders who killed him, and while she is a few marbles short and definitely capable of murder; I don't think she's quite loopy enough to gaslight herself into forgetting such a thing?
I thought there was more to the fostering conversation than Lysa just blindly acting out to keep Sweet Robin in her custody. Catelyn told Maester Coleman that Lysa believed Sweet Robin was definitively being sent to the Lannisters, and the maester, seemingly flabbergasted by the idea, corrected her and verified Jon had decided on Stannis. To me, this implied that Littlefinger exploited Lysa's mental illness and fears of the Lannisters by lying about what he'd heard Robert and Jon planned for Sweet Robin (who else would've given her the information), to get her desperate enough to muder Jon. Rather than her acting to prevent any fostering at all, it seemed very Lannister-specific. It just felt more sinister in my estimation but I could be wrong. On a seperate note, if Pycelle was truly a Lannister man, why did he give Ned the book which led Ned to intel that could collapse the Lannister dynasty? Always wondered about that. Nice job!
Good points! My suspicion about Pycelle handing over the book so easily is that he was simply ignorant of the truth, perhaps willfully so. Dunno what evidence is actually in the text, but I can see him dismissing all the “rumors” of the twincest out of sheer blind love for the Lannisters.
Robert tells Ned that Robert Arryn is to be fostered with Tywin at Casterly and that Tywin will be deeply offended if he changes his mind. Pycelle says that Jon is sending Robert to Dragonstone. Hmmmmm
In Deep Geek made a video about this. It seems that Jon wanted to send Robyn to Stannis but Cersei persuaded Robert to send the boy to Tywin Lannister.
@@ashleyofnaath Yes. Pycelle should NOT know that Jon was sending Robert Arryn to Stannis instead of Tywin. It IS weird that Pycelle says this to Tyrion. NOW imagine Tyrion is replaced by Ned...and Pycelle says this shit to Ned. How does THAT conversation now change?
I thought Lysa did it after little finger played on her fears for her son but can't remember where I read it. It's been a long time. She was a pawn in little fingers game to shake things up iirc.
Then there are also the Royce who are suspcious of "Alayne", having likely deduced that she isn't a bastard, but a highborn. (That being about Lysas death more than anything) Depending on how that goes, Sansa might confess to them about the whole thing
That would be a very dangerous thing for Sansa to do, even if she had all the best intentions. She's already accused of killing the King, if she admits that she saw Petyr kill her aunt and didn't say anything that might do more harm than good for her
Hold on. One of the most suspicious things Catelyn does is she reads the note in supposedly written in code and then burns it before anyone can even look at it. It was supposedly written in code that only she and Lysa can read. If that's the case she wouldn't need to burn it. She doesn't even show it to Ned.
that's exactly why she immediately burns it. if someone finds it they can't read it but since it was delivered to Cat they would know she is involved and the writer is someone very close to her therefore it could arise suspicion about herself too.
@@thing_under_the_stairs i think you're a bit confused. Strong Belwas killed a different hand of the king -- Tywin Lanister. Evidence: Tywin smelled like shit and thats definitely the style of Strong Belwas.
Great vid IDG , sometimes when not thinking about LF as much for a time can briefly lose focus on how influential he was to the events that gets this whole series going. LF is extremely adept at what he does , causing chaos , confusion and carnage - deflecting blame onto others , often layers covering his own tracks and creating tension and conflict between others. All of which to his advantage that he makes sure to capitalize on. Manipulating Lysa into poisoning Jon Arryn very much part of that and the early catalyst that drives the start of ASoIaF & many events going forward. Can't wait for LF to meet his end ; of course not how GoT did it but i do like the idea that his scheming will eventually backfire when knowingly or unknowingly he is no longer in total control and most likely not on his home turf. As the vid suggested would be fitting if his being outed for his role with Jon Arryn's death is at least part of that. LF is clearly an (insert appropriate expletive) but credit where credit is due , he is so good at what he does , causing chaos and thriving in it. It will be very satisfying when LF finally gets whats coming to him.
It's weird to think that before the events of AGOT Jon Arryn, Lysa and Sweetrobin presumably all lived at court for years and would have regularly interacted with characters like the Lannisters at court but POV characters never really acknowledge this period or the relationships they had with those characters
That's so weird, I was just thinking about this today, because it's clearly spelled out in the show but I couldn't remember whether it was definite in the books.
But Jon Arryn did find out about Joffrey being a bastard the same way Ned found out. So it could be that his squire also knew. Which might have been a motivation for Cersei to have him killed. The Hound said that the Mountain definitely killed him on purpose.
LIttlefinger is such a great character. I really hope that if GRR Martin ever gets around to finishing the books Littlefinger's eventual demise is handled better than the infantile crap they pulled with the TV series.
Who better to settle the score than the Stark children? Who had more right? Lord Baelish thought he was invincible and found out he was not. It was beautiful. He (and we) never saw it coming😊.
@@tessdurberville711 The way that it's handled, though, with Arya essentially ignoring everything Sansa had been complicit in, was in no way in keeping with Arya's character. The way it worked out, Arya had always loved Sansa more than Jon and her assassin training was pointless. I do agree that his own hubris will be what gets him killed, but not in a way that really makes so little sense.
@@tessdurberville711I agree. However the way it was done in the show was so anticlimactic. It was reminiscent of a scene from a teenage drama on Freeform. Just cheap. I say that because it was a death that was so fast and without preamble for the character who literally caused everything in the story. The story doesn’t happen without it. He’s kind of the main character. To die with such a boring scene almost ruined the show earlier than they did.
Before we start. Lysa and littlefinger killed him. He was about to send Robert to be fostered away from his mother. And he might have realized that his son is not his son.
Lysa accusing Tyrion is just the most common tactics used by panicking killers, even now IRL. Suspects under interrogation for murder will literally point the finger at anyone and everyone, and is one of the things detectives watch for when questioning suspects. The suspect that starts to recall what they did when the murder happened usually isn’t involved, while the suspect that starts throwing out wild theories and bringing up people that had beef with the victim is probably the one to examine more deeply. Basically, it’s like throwing pocket sand, distractions to take eyes off of herself.
It's also interesting in that Jon Arryn is Little Finger's lord - it's the smallest lord of the smallest house of the worst part of the Vale killing the head and ascending. You can also see this in the coat of arms: mockingbird (a humble bird whose distinction is speech) vs the noble & martial falcon.
I like this question because the answer is as obvious as to who tried to kill Bran in his room with Tyrion's Valyrian dagger before Summer intervened with Catelyn slowing him down. Sometimes the more interesting question is who convinced the assassin to murder the victim or did they chose to do it themselves wihout any outside influence.
No, Tyrion didn't figure out who killed Jon Arryn. We have his POV, and he never accuses any of the actual conspirators in his thoughts, even as he thinks about LF lying about the dagger.
Hey! I have no idea if you read comments but i hope you see this. I got my urge to rewatch "a travelers guide" again but all those videos, besides the westerlands one, arent available any more. I have really been wondering what happened to them, did they get struck by youtube? did you just private them? Really dying to know.
I know a lot of people didn’t like his death in the show, but I personally LOVE how it plays out. Peter still thinks he’s in control of Sansa, that he’s still using chaos as a ladder, but that ladder is suddenly kicked out from under him. The acting is superb, Sansa’s barely contained fury as she confronts him shows how far she’s come from season 1. Despite his claim to love her/her mother, he’s the ultimate cause of everything they’ve suffered and now she has the power to make him pay for it. “What do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?” Indeed!
No, i think Lysa accused Tyrion of killing Jon because, lets not forget, SHE'S INSANE i dont think she was thinking it through and just did it, she's completely crazy and its no suprise
Storm of Swords straight up tells us this is what happened but I find it a bit tenuous, specifically with Ser Hugh. Simply matching him against Gregor is trusting _way_ too much to chance without an explicit instruction to Gregor to kill him (which only the Lannisters could provide).
@@bmobmo6438 I think he is too far away to arrange that. Although he does lie about the dagger to Caitlin for the reason you mentioned. Some people think it's Joffery, by a process of elimination.
If Tyrion figured Littlefinger out, the theory that the cup Joffrey drank from at his wedding was Tyrion's and it was poisoned because Littlefinger was trying to get Tyrion out of the way makes even more sense now...
It was Lysa herself, it's written in Sansa's final chapter in "A storm of swords" book two. Littlefinger told her to poison him using the Tears of Lys and she obliged.
@@siriusczech Why? Lysa confessed that she did it. Why spend time on some wild theory when it was written clearly? GRRM put the very confession into Lysa's mouth, this isn't a case of interpretation. Her words were not particularly veiled or implicit.
@@RoadKamelot2nd but there is no need for commenting a thing already told in the video. So either do it "my guess/I remember..., going to watch the vid to confirm" or even better - come back after watching and stating "edit: after watching I am glad you have it right as well". The current form is simply in tone of "I know, won't watch, but still wanna shove my knowledge/opinions everywhere including comment sections of vids I do not intent to even watch. And I think Robert here deserves better
@@siriusczech or better yet, discuss how lysa arryn getting laid good and proper at any point prior to the poisoning of jon arryn could of prevented the entirety of the northern rebellion..
This is all overtly explained in the show, isn't it? Lysa killed him, at the request of Stinky Finger, so that the Lannisters might be blamed and so that friction might arise between the two great houses of Stark and Lannister.
Robert tells Ned that Lysa ran off to the Eyrie and took her son-who was supposed to be fostered at Casterly Rock with Tywin. What Pycelle says here regarding the fostering is important. Robert made the fostering deal with Tywin...and Jon changed it. Imagine if Tyrion was Ned-and Pycelle says this to Ned about Robert Arryn being fostered at Dragonstone. How does the questioning go then? Jon Arryn helped Tywin during Robert's Rebellion. There is NO way Aerys sent a demand to Jon Arryn to kill Robert and Ned via a bird. NOT unless Aerys also sends men...and also sends for the other Baratheon brothers and Benjen. Either Jon lied about that order from Aerys or Pycelle sent a fake demand from Aerys. This means that Tywin sent it, basically.
good analysis as always. but i think, up to some point little finger and varys have acted together. they had seperate goals of course but both of them desperately sought chaos for their plans. and in the first book when varys visited ned in the dungeon he refered to little finger as second most evil man in kingslanding and claimed that he fed little finger with the informations he choose and let little finger think varys was in his hands. also when arya was practising syrio's homework with the cats, she witnessed illyrio and varys's dialog which illyrio said to varys "if one hand can die why not a second, you have done this dance before my friend." which he refered to the killing of jon aryn was actually varys's job. i think Varys analyzing people into the their deeps (perhaps with the help of magic) and knowing how to manipulate them without leaving any trace. perhaps little finger might have awared the situation but ignored as long as it is beneficial to act together.
Varys "knowing" that a poison was used that leaves no trace places him firmly on the side of the poisoners or at the very least in the position of a spy who saw them planning it. He remained inactive then silent, therefore complicit. In any case he tells Ned only half the truth, not disclosing who poisoned Jon. And Dumbned doesn't ask, nor does he even notice he is being fooled. So Varys was involved, not just Littlefinger. As to why it all happened, Varys tells us that too. "Jon Arryn started asking questions". Varys was the first to know, the same way he already knew what Jon was going to find but it was all too early for that destabilising secret to be revealed, as Viserys and Drogo were not ready to invade. At this point I believe GRRM had not yet thought of the Young Griff plot and had Varys and Illyrio sincerely support the Dothraki plan, which is why they invested invaluable dragon eggs, be they a portable fortune or symbols of legitimacy, into it. So Varys provided information about Jon Arryn investigating, Littlefinger arranged the poisoning and maybe Pycelle provided the poison too, only lying to Tyrion about it later. We may wonder if Littlefinger hoped to be made Hand himself instead of Ned. The letter to Cat' would have been meant to intimidate her instead, so she would keep Ned in Winterfell. This is probably what Lysa thought Cat' would do. Once Ned was there, Littlefinger's offer to him was to help him rule under Joffrey, silently preparing to push Ned to lose his head later for the same crime of knowing Joffrey's secret whenever the time was right to be named in his stead.
I always disliked this part in game of thrones personally. The whole 'little finger was the real master mind' feels like something that had been added to the script much later in the story, rather than planned from the start. It fits far better that cercei was behind it, with a clear motive of not wanting to have her incest story discovered, rather than little finger playing 5d chess. We are shown the lannister willingness to kill to keep their secret when Jaime pushes Bran out the window. We essentially are given all the building blocks, with Bran and Jon Arryn for the big discovery that the heir to the throne is not legitimate, and thus the necessary clash of stark vs lannister has to follow. When it turns out Cercei is not behind the killing of Jon Arryn, then it basically just says it is pure luck she is not caught before the book even starts, and that completely diminishes the build-up we see in book one in my opinion. It takes her from being a person with an active agency in her own story to one without much agency, just for the sake of "little finger likes chaos"
Do you have your content in podcast form? I'd like to listen to it without a RUclips video running and TBH I don't want to pay for RUclips premium to get running on lock screen
Great video. Suggestion: Who sent the assassin to kill Bran with the Valyrian steel blade? Jaime or Littlefinger? I always thought it was Jaime but perhaps I’m wrong.
@@awcxy But how? Jeoffery was still only prince and on the Kingsroad down to King’s Landing. Maybe it’s a small detail but I kinda consider it a rather important detail. Are the books really that different from the show? The first 3-4 seasons I’m referring to, I’ve discredited the latter half of the show.
@@cardenova jeoffrey heard robert say that it would be kinder to put bran out of his misery and since jeoff always wanted to impress his "father" he stole the dagger from him and gave it to the assassin before leaving for King`s Landing. The assassin hid for a few days in the stables before attempting to kill bran. Up to season 4 the series is pretty faithful to the books, But I guess they forgot to solve the mistery in the series.
Without listening, I'm pretty confident it was little finger who did it cuz he knew lysa arryn was in love with him and used that marriage to his own benefit
His wife, with Littlefinger. Varys involved - you know, keep the peace at whatever cost(and revealing Cersei’s affair would have spoiled that). There, you have it!
The question is why Littlefinger relies on Lyssa and others tolerate her when she's clearly unhinged. She's Petyr's only play for power but it really is a long shot.
Petyr does not really have a powerbase. He's a very minor lord. If he marries Lysa, Robyn Arryn become his ward, and Peter can rule the Vale. After Lysa's murder, we see how Peter has some Vale lords on his side, and how his money or bribery bring others over. None of this happens if Jon Arryn is alive.
Just been re listening to the audio book, can anyone tell me how ned real8ses it's twinsest? Cos it seemed to me it went like this: ned decides to send the girls home, speaks to sansa who says 'he's nothing like that old king', ned realises the royal kids aren't Roberts, confronts cersei about adultery, then accuses Jamie as tge father, but why does he make the jump from adultery to incest, nothing is shown to happen between neds realisation of adultery and acussing cersie of incest?
This video has helped me to come up with a small theory of my own... What if, Little finger did send the catspaw with King Roberts group to Winterfell, and told him he needs to kill one of Cats sons after Ned left with Robert, not knowing he would even be crippled by Jaime, so that Cat would follow Ned and inquire about the blade. This way, he had multiple reasons to blame the Lannisters in the case that Ned was too slow to understand the bastardy of Cerseys children. He knew that soon Robert will die - one way or another, which will prevent him from telling Ned the knife was his. He knew that Cat would trust his word, and that Ned would trust her. Having the Starks go after the Lannisters from betraying the king and for killing Jon Arryn might be a good idea, but it would definitely be better if they also thought that they had tried to kill one of their kids... The catspaw simply thought it would be easiest to dispose of the comatose boy. For me it's just weird that many people believe Jeffrey sent the catspaw, I just don't see the reason Jeffrey would do it... He is cruel, yes. And is looking to diss Starks whenever he can. But it seems to me that he has the slight sense to not try to harm any of his betrotheds family - at least until Nymerya humiliates him... I could be wrong, but in my head, it fits
I don't think Joffrey sent the Catspaw. That would mean Joff cared about Bran to provide the merciful death. Joff is a narcissist. And where would he get the knife? I tend to be think Littlefinger was behind it.
Littlefinger and Lysa. Also Pycelle. Lysa to be with Littlefinger and Robin. Littlefinger most likely either to inherit the Vale or because Jon found out about all the theft. Pycelle also helped it along to hide Cercei and Jaime's affair. Lysa poisoned him, on Littlefingers instigation. Pycelle witheld the medicine required to save him.
Lysa admits it, yes, Lannister is involved, but Jon was an avid denier of Ned claiming Aegon as his bastard... The seed is strong! He figured out Robin was Little fingers son, Ned has the true heir, and Roberts kids were Jaimies. Little finger needed the chaos to continue for his own machinations
re: Jon was an avid denier of Ned claiming Aegon as his bastard... The seed is strong! He figured out Robin was Little fingers son, Ned has the true heir, where are getting this?
In the books, I do concur that Sansa is a weak link in Littlefinger's game. Everything he has done has been cold and calculating, covering all his tracks, but his feelings for Sansa was an anomaly. He wanted her because Sansa reminded her so much of Catelyn Tully when she was younger, and Littlefinger had a thing for her years ago. Sansa in the books had been witnessing and surviving through all the political murder and intrigues at King's Landing. Often needing protection provided by someone. Haphazardly, luckily, but surviving nonetheless. And quite possibly learning how the game is played. If only GRR Martine got the follow on books going.
Would love a video on who, in hindsight, should have been King after Robert’s rebellion. Robert’s wasn’t a great King, and I don’t think Ned would have navigated being King well based on his time in Kings Landing. Could Jon Arryn have been King? Was there another person with a blood connection that could have been a better King?
It would have been so fun if Tyrion "interrogation" of Pycele had been book accurate! Suddenly bursting into Pycelle's cell in the dead of night with a massive mountain warrior would have been a chaotic, jolting event. Followed by Tyrion purring questions gently while Shagga puts the squeeze on him. I can picture it so well mentally.
He also has Shagga cut off his beard in the books, which is magnificently long and bushy as a status symbol of his age and wisdom as a grand maester, but after that it never really grows back to its former glory. A long-lasting visible sign of his humiliation that book Tyrion is very proud of lol
Lysa didn't kill Jon to stop him from sending Robin away, she killed him because he would find out through his new knowledge of genetics that Robin wasn't his son, bu Littlefinger's
Lysa Aryn admitted it and I still don’t believe it! There’s too much suspicion and questions surrounding John Arryn’s death. I think it’s more believable that he did it himself.
So, we know that Littlefinger (LF) has Lysa poison Arryn and Lysa writes to Cat to tell her the Lannisters did it as the King and his entourage are traveling the 1500 miles between KL and Winterfell (even at 30 mi/day that's 50 days in each direction). BTW, who's in charge in KL for all that time? What does LF hope to achieve with Arryn's death? Did he expect Baratheon to name Ned Hand? Why would LF want this? Ned would be new to KL but there's no guarentee that Ned would screw up so badly. Ned confronts Cercei because the king is still alive. Does LF know that Cercei has arranged Robert's death on the hunt? Does LF know that Renly has the backing of the Tyrells and will jump Stannis's claim? Because without those 3 things LW does not get his war between Lannister and Stark. And if Ned prevents Robert's death and proves to Robert the children are not his, then we have the 7 Kingdoms go to war against the Lannisters who will be destroyed. Cercei, Jaime, and the children are killed immediately, and instead of sowing chaos, Baratheon is more secure on the throne, Ned or someone other loyalist is Hand, and Robert is free to marry again and have legit children. And unless Stannis is somehow killed in this Lannister war, then the best general is Robert's heir. It seems there a big missing piece to LF's plot to murder Arryn.
Martin was so cheeky with this... Explicitly saying the name of the poison was "tears of Lys", while also telling the reader that his wife was the only character named Lysa - an unstable woman overly attached to her son, whom would be separated from her, thus very likely causing her to produce lots of... tears of Lysa. He could have named the poison literally whatever, or even omit it name completely, but he chose specifically that wordplay, excellent.
Even if you miss that connection, the way he presents that particular syllable, lys, it's always at least a little sinister and meant to misdirect not foster trust.
I'm pretty sure the poison is named after the city lys in essos. But you're right there is probably some symbolism there
@@mrmittenns5728 Yeah, I know about the city, but highly doubt that this is a coincidence
Yes, but there is actually a place in-universe called "Lys," so...
@@mrmittenns5728 yes, it's name for the city of Lys.
Literally any time there's a question of "who killed them" in any of the books, my first thought is always Little Finger, even if it doesn't seem even remotely possible.
Everything can be blamed on Littlefinger or Bloodraven.
ESPECIALLY if it's not even possible
doesny lysa admit it was her at little fingers urging
who killed Kevan Lannister?
@@MusMasiyes she does
Calling Jon Arryn "Catelyn's brother in law" sounds weird af despite it being totally factual
Also sort of Catelyn's father-in-law, given that he fostered and largely raised Ned.
On top of that, I think Jon Arryn is technically Ned's brother-in-law twice (or at least brother-in-law-in-law), which sounds weird since that means Ned was fostered and raised by his brother-in-law, or, put another way, he married his foster-aunt-in-law.
They're like the Targaryens of technicalities.
Welcome to Royal families
@@Wolfeson28that doesn't make him her father in law
@@stingerjohnny9951
Jon = Ned's foster father, therefore Jon is in a sense the father of Catelyn's husband, which is what a father-in-law is. Not in the usual sense, obviously, but in-laws aren't blood relatives anyway (at least in *most* family trees).
People always get Ned so wrong. He didn't warn Cersei because it was honourable. The honourable thing according to Westerosi customs would have been to deliver her to the king straight away for committing treason--there's no honour in helping a traitor escape. He did it to save her children from Robert's wrath. As he tried to save Dany when Robert ordered her assassination, and as he saved Jon. He has a clear trauma from seeing the Targaryen children after the sack of King's Landing and hates the idea of killing children. Stannis or Jon Arryn would have satisfied honour and delivered Cersei to Robert, but Ned chose mercy over honour. He never was the stickler for honour he and others claimed him to be, not in his actions. He elegantly leveraged that reputation to sell a life lie (Jon being his bastard), but whenever he is actually faced with choosing honour over another good (mercy, his family, saving someone innocent), he chooses against honour.
that's why when I rewatched his execution I was surprised because I could swear he didn't lie to say he was a traitor who wanted to seize the throne for himself (what Sansa and Cersei wanted so he could live) but he actually did.
I remembered he refused to lie and said Joffrey was a bastard and died defending the truth but I was wrong.
And he should've done that since he dies anyway si at least he could've gone with a badass line about the king being born of incest and the queen being a snake or something like that.
Well said. ❤
@@ManudyneWow, that's interesting!!! It's funny when our memories are proven to be false, isn't it? It happens to all of us.
True, Ned could have chosen to defiantly tell the truth of Cersei's children's parentage. I guess Ned must have believed that he would be spared, as he was promised. Apparently he didn't forsee the possibility of Joffery calling for his death regardless.
yeah Ned was not expecting that. Joffrey was quite often unpredictable@@Jen7867
Well said.
And what Ned said in season 1 supports your argument. When Varys asked Ned what madness drove him to tell Cersei that he had discovered the truth of the twincest a d bastardy, he replies, "The madness of mercy."
It's such a great reveal in the books when Lysa lets the truth slip in A Storm of Swords, after the mystery has dragged on for so many pages and you'd thought it solved and unsolved so many times, and starting to think you'd never get the truth. One of those moments when you drop the book and yell "motherfucker!" and everyone looks at you strangely.
Was it a mystery? Pretty sure most readers thought it was Cersei, having been directed there by the text since early in the saga. At the time of this reveal, no one out there was wondering who killed Jon Arryn. We all thought we knew. That's what makes this reveal so brilliant: the best twists provide answers to questions you didn't know you had. The Sixth Sense is a perfect example of that.
@@WarKrieg I suspected lysa more and more when her links to little finger were exposed more as the story went on.
🤣
@MusMasi me too. Maybe Cersei/Jaime were involved, but I don't think so. Someone did "advise" Pycele to let him die. He even got rid of the maester taking care of Jon. And Littlefinger really had no reason to help. He just loves to start shit. Maybe he did have a plan to go for Lysa, marriage, at some point, but I think most of it was her doing because she didn't want Robin to be fostered with Tywin. Or anyone. Thanks for reminding me which book. As many times as I've read them, I SHOULD remember🙋🏽♀️✌️
It’s quite good because it’s one of the few times the reader gets a real glimpse at how deep some of the plots the POVs aren’t aware of go. No one was thinking Lysa was the murderer (in story), and we never would’ve know if not for her confession. It makes you realize that even if the characters have settled on an answer for the mystery, that resolution may not be the truth.
jon arryns murder is actually hilarious
littlefinger manipulates his side hoe into murdering her husband just for shits and giggles, meanwhile jon’s investigating the queen and the fact she’s fucking her brother and that her kids are bastards of incest, the fact that he gets poisoned leads pycelle to assume cerci did it so they don’t save his life and try to cover up his death
it’s this clusterfuck of different plots that all intertwine and a great writing from george
How long have Littlefinger and Lysa been fooling around behind Jon Arryn's back, and is Robyn Arryn their bastard?
It certainly would explain how frail and small he is for his age
@@alihijazi4451 Not that the show matters but they did a really good job of casting a kid who favored Aiden Gillen. Outside of Lysa's nose, that is.
He might be, the way Harrold Hardyng is described to look like Jon Arryn when he was young, against how Robyn is described, kinda puts that into question.
Considering the fact that Jon Arryn hadn't been able to produce a single child until he married Lysa - and that Lysa had previously had a child by Petr - I'd say it's a 99,9% certainty Robin is Littlefinger's son.
Considering what a wimp Robyn is, and the overarcing theme of the Song of Ice And Fire books, I would not have been surprised.
this mystery plays better in text than live action because as you watch it, you wonder, how no one sees through little finger.
I think the writing/direction for Littlefinger made him too obviously sneaky. In the books he was more friendly and likable.
@@MTGandP You actually trust book littlefinger at first, show littlefinger is just blatantly conniving at all times
I always wondered why Arryn's last words were "the seed is strong". I figure if he were dying anyway, wouldn't he save a lot of time and headache and just straight said that Cersie is having an affair with Jamie and her kids are bastards?
yeah mumbling of old dying man would definitely persuade someone
You'd think! But maybe he was too delirious to do so. Or it could be that Lysa didn't relay his final words accurately, perhaps even at Littlefinger's behest. Remember, Baelish was setting up Cersei as his fall guy for Arryn's demise.
Another possibility is that all Jon Arryn's research into hair colors raised some questions in his mind about Sweetrobin's paternity... and Lysa *definitely* wouldn't have revealed anything Arryn uttered on his deathbed in that regard.
He wasn’t in a very good state on his death bed, and it seems all he could manage was “Robert” and “the seed is strong” over and over again
It’s also referring to robin Arryn not being his son. (Arryns usually are very strong and blonde like harry the heir, and robin, well robin is little fingers son)
yeah, but that would have spoiled the mystery, so..
RIP Jon Arryn. Ty for the content!
Yes RIP Jon A. We hardly knew ya
Cersie (In her POV chapters) wonders who killed him, and while she is a few marbles short and definitely capable of murder; I don't think she's quite loopy enough to gaslight herself into forgetting such a thing?
who counts them corpses, I might have forgotten a couple.
Cat managed to forget Lysa's miscarriage. Anyone can forget anything.
I thought there was more to the fostering conversation than Lysa just blindly acting out to keep Sweet Robin in her custody. Catelyn told Maester Coleman that Lysa believed Sweet Robin was definitively being sent to the Lannisters, and the maester, seemingly flabbergasted by the idea, corrected her and verified Jon had decided on Stannis. To me, this implied that Littlefinger exploited Lysa's mental illness and fears of the Lannisters by lying about what he'd heard Robert and Jon planned for Sweet Robin (who else would've given her the information), to get her desperate enough to muder Jon. Rather than her acting to prevent any fostering at all, it seemed very Lannister-specific. It just felt more sinister in my estimation but I could be wrong. On a seperate note, if Pycelle was truly a Lannister man, why did he give Ned the book which led Ned to intel that could collapse the Lannister dynasty? Always wondered about that. Nice job!
Good points! My suspicion about Pycelle handing over the book so easily is that he was simply ignorant of the truth, perhaps willfully so. Dunno what evidence is actually in the text, but I can see him dismissing all the “rumors” of the twincest out of sheer blind love for the Lannisters.
Robert tells Ned that Robert Arryn is to be fostered with Tywin at Casterly and that Tywin will be deeply offended if he changes his mind. Pycelle says that Jon is sending Robert to Dragonstone. Hmmmmm
In Deep Geek made a video about this.
It seems that Jon wanted to send Robyn to Stannis but Cersei persuaded Robert to send the boy to Tywin Lannister.
@@aprilmae274 In addition to Jon Arryn's own maester saying the boy would be fostered with Stannis. This is really interesting.
@@ashleyofnaath Yes. Pycelle should NOT know that Jon was sending Robert Arryn to Stannis instead of Tywin. It IS weird that Pycelle says this to Tyrion. NOW imagine Tyrion is replaced by Ned...and Pycelle says this shit to Ned. How does THAT conversation now change?
Jon Aaron had a second helping of old nans kidney pie forgetting he was allergic to peas and onions
Lysa arryn killed him she admitted it
I thought Lysa did it after little finger played on her fears for her son but can't remember where I read it. It's been a long time. She was a pawn in little fingers game to shake things up iirc.
But at the behest of Littlefinger, she was merely the Lee Harvey Oswald of Westeros, Littlefinger was actually the murderer.
@@andrewjohnston9115I sprayed Diet Coke out my nose at "Lee Harvey Oswald of Westeros". It stung. Thanks!
@@StormblessedRadiantLysa confessed to Sansa before Littlefinget threw Lisa out the Moon Door
@thing_under_the_stairs it was good... just made me laugh mid sneeze
Then there are also the Royce who are suspcious of "Alayne", having likely deduced that she isn't a bastard, but a highborn. (That being about Lysas death more than anything)
Depending on how that goes, Sansa might confess to them about the whole thing
That would be a very dangerous thing for Sansa to do, even if she had all the best intentions. She's already accused of killing the King, if she admits that she saw Petyr kill her aunt and didn't say anything that might do more harm than good for her
Love your breakdowns. Since Greenhand had their baby you have filled a major gap that they left off. Thanks again for the great content
Hold on. One of the most suspicious things Catelyn does is she reads the note in supposedly written in code and then burns it before anyone can even look at it. It was supposedly written in code that only she and Lysa can read. If that's the case she wouldn't need to burn it. She doesn't even show it to Ned.
I also always found this suspicious, especially after we get to know Cat more and see how many poor decisions she makes!
that's exactly why she immediately burns it. if someone finds it they can't read it but since it was delivered to Cat they would know she is involved and the writer is someone very close to her therefore it could arise suspicion about herself too.
It was called "Robert's Rebellion" but it was actually Jon Arryn who called his banners against the Mad King.
Samwell Tarly killed him. Think about it, it makes perfect sense and all the evidence is right there in the books.
Don't be silly. It was Strong Belwas.
@@thing_under_the_stairs i think you're a bit confused. Strong Belwas killed a different hand of the king -- Tywin Lanister. Evidence: Tywin smelled like shit and thats definitely the style of Strong Belwas.
@@TheIvasyl Tywin is still alive he is disguised as the dusky woman aboard Victarion's ship
An intriguing theory, but I think we all know it was Ser Pounce.
@@nicknumber1512ser pounce is the real mastermind. He brings the chaos!!
Great vid IDG , sometimes when not thinking about LF as much for a time can briefly lose focus on how influential he was to the events that gets this whole series going. LF is extremely adept at what he does , causing chaos , confusion and carnage - deflecting blame onto others , often layers covering his own tracks and creating tension and conflict between others. All of which to his advantage that he makes sure to capitalize on. Manipulating Lysa into poisoning Jon Arryn very much part of that and the early catalyst that drives the start of ASoIaF & many events going forward. Can't wait for LF to meet his end ; of course not how GoT did it but i do like the idea that his scheming will eventually backfire when knowingly or unknowingly he is no longer in total control and most likely not on his home turf. As the vid suggested would be fitting if his being outed for his role with Jon Arryn's death is at least part of that.
LF is clearly an (insert appropriate expletive) but credit where credit is due , he is so good at what he does , causing chaos and thriving in it. It will be very satisfying when LF finally gets whats coming to him.
This is one of your best videos to date. Thank you!
I am so glad I found this channel. Well done! 👍
It's weird to think that before the events of AGOT Jon Arryn, Lysa and Sweetrobin presumably all lived at court for years and would have regularly interacted with characters like the Lannisters at court but POV characters never really acknowledge this period or the relationships they had with those characters
Nice video, as usual, thank you Robert
That's so weird, I was just thinking about this today, because it's clearly spelled out in the show but I couldn't remember whether it was definite in the books.
But Jon Arryn did find out about Joffrey being a bastard the same way Ned found out. So it could be that his squire also knew. Which might have been a motivation for Cersei to have him killed. The Hound said that the Mountain definitely killed him on purpose.
LIttlefinger is such a great character. I really hope that if GRR Martin ever gets around to finishing the books Littlefinger's eventual demise is handled better than the infantile crap they pulled with the TV series.
Who better to settle the score than the Stark children? Who had more right? Lord Baelish thought he was invincible and found out he was not. It was beautiful. He (and we) never saw it coming😊.
@@tessdurberville711 The way that it's handled, though, with Arya essentially ignoring everything Sansa had been complicit in, was in no way in keeping with Arya's character. The way it worked out, Arya had always loved Sansa more than Jon and her assassin training was pointless. I do agree that his own hubris will be what gets him killed, but not in a way that really makes so little sense.
@@tessdurberville711I agree. However the way it was done in the show was so anticlimactic. It was reminiscent of a scene from a teenage drama on Freeform. Just cheap. I say that because it was a death that was so fast and without preamble for the character who literally caused everything in the story. The story doesn’t happen without it. He’s kind of the main character. To die with such a boring scene almost ruined the show earlier than they did.
Before we start. Lysa and littlefinger killed him. He was about to send Robert to be fostered away from his mother. And he might have realized that his son is not his son.
Ned confronting Cersei is easily in the top 10 scenes for both show and book!
Lysa and littlefinger plotted but Pycelle was surely in on it. Maybe even Varys... Starting video now, I'm excited to hear your analysis 😊
Thanks Robert for all your videos 🎉😊
Great topic choice!!
Ironic that Cat taking Tyrion prisoner was just as hare-brained as Lysa accusing him of Jon's murder.
It was ridiculous.
@@tessdurberville711The Tully’s are not the brightest!
How many are dead because of these two gossipy rumor mongers
@@MP-uw1qcw😊
I really like these videos! Thanks for posting!!
All I know is it wasn't me. Everyone needs to stop spreading rumors.
12:00 So Littlefinger is planning to marry Sansa to Thor. Interesting, thus the Long Night could be turned into Ragnarök.
Lysa accusing Tyrion is just the most common tactics used by panicking killers, even now IRL. Suspects under interrogation for murder will literally point the finger at anyone and everyone, and is one of the things detectives watch for when questioning suspects. The suspect that starts to recall what they did when the murder happened usually isn’t involved, while the suspect that starts throwing out wild theories and bringing up people that had beef with the victim is probably the one to examine more deeply. Basically, it’s like throwing pocket sand, distractions to take eyes off of herself.
Excellent synopsis as always.
Yet another amazing video! Keep up the good work, I'm lovin it! (the asoiaf videos are my fav)
We all know Cersai couldn't pull off a plot. Why does everyone in book act like she's a player.
Curious that you used a picture of Tyland Lannister when mentioning Ser Hugh
It was the same actor who played both roles. Funny Easter egg I suppose
@@docmitchell4658Cool, I never knew that!
@@docmitchell4658 yeah I was just joking, technically he plays 3 roles
So the lannisters were involved afterall!
It's also interesting in that Jon Arryn is Little Finger's lord - it's the smallest lord of the smallest house of the worst part of the Vale killing the head and ascending.
You can also see this in the coat of arms: mockingbird (a humble bird whose distinction is speech) vs the noble & martial falcon.
I like this question because the answer is as obvious as to who tried to kill Bran in his room with Tyrion's Valyrian dagger before Summer intervened with Catelyn slowing him down. Sometimes the more interesting question is who convinced the assassin to murder the victim or did they chose to do it themselves wihout any outside influence.
“Ned would BE HEADING to King’s Landing” 😏
No, Tyrion didn't figure out who killed Jon Arryn. We have his POV, and he never accuses any of the actual conspirators in his thoughts, even as he thinks about LF lying about the dagger.
Hey! I have no idea if you read comments but i hope you see this.
I got my urge to rewatch "a travelers guide" again but all those videos, besides the westerlands one, arent available any more.
I have really been wondering what happened to them, did they get struck by youtube? did you just private them? Really dying to know.
My question is, since LF killed Jon why would cersei not look into who killed the hand of the king? unless she did not know he was poisoned?
I am quite new to your channel and I'm absolutely loving it! Thank you ❤
Excellent video!
I know a lot of people didn’t like his death in the show, but I personally LOVE how it plays out. Peter still thinks he’s in control of Sansa, that he’s still using chaos as a ladder, but that ladder is suddenly kicked out from under him. The acting is superb, Sansa’s barely contained fury as she confronts him shows how far she’s come from season 1. Despite his claim to love her/her mother, he’s the ultimate cause of everything they’ve suffered and now she has the power to make him pay for it.
“What do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?” Indeed!
Any Brits here notice Nigel Farrage at 0:35 😂
Oh god it is. He's gonna vote to leave the seven kingdoms
Why did you take down your Traveler’s Guide to Essos videos? They’re your best ones.
I thought it was pretty clear it was Lysa at LF´s behest lol
No, i think Lysa accused Tyrion of killing Jon because, lets not forget, SHE'S INSANE i dont think she was thinking it through and just did it, she's completely crazy and its no suprise
Yeah Im sure something like denial and then displaced blame .. "They made me do it!" and turning into "No it was their fault all along"
Storm of Swords straight up tells us this is what happened but I find it a bit tenuous, specifically with Ser Hugh. Simply matching him against Gregor is trusting _way_ too much to chance without an explicit instruction to Gregor to kill him (which only the Lannisters could provide).
Excellent! Wonderful! Stupendous! Outstanding! Thank you!
Great video. Please could you do one for who sent the assassin to kill Bran after his fall
I would like that video as well.
That was Littlefinger setting the stage for the war of five kings
@@bmobmo6438 I think he is too far away to arrange that. Although he does lie about the dagger to Caitlin for the reason you mentioned. Some people think it's Joffery, by a process of elimination.
I always assumed it was Jaime? At least in the show
If Tyrion figured Littlefinger out, the theory that the cup Joffrey drank from at his wedding was Tyrion's and it was poisoned because Littlefinger was trying to get Tyrion out of the way makes even more sense now...
Jon Arryn pulled a "Slobodan Praljak" maneuver when he realized he married Lysa Tully.
It was Lysa herself, it's written in Sansa's final chapter in "A storm of swords" book two. Littlefinger told her to poison him using the Tears of Lys and she obliged.
maybe watching the video first and then commenting would be a better order of actions next time?
@@siriusczech Why? Lysa confessed that she did it. Why spend time on some wild theory when it was written clearly? GRRM put the very confession into Lysa's mouth, this isn't a case of interpretation. Her words were not particularly veiled or implicit.
@@RoadKamelot2nd but there is no need for commenting a thing already told in the video. So either do it "my guess/I remember..., going to watch the vid to confirm" or even better - come back after watching and stating "edit: after watching I am glad you have it right as well".
The current form is simply in tone of "I know, won't watch, but still wanna shove my knowledge/opinions everywhere including comment sections of vids I do not intent to even watch. And I think Robert here deserves better
@@siriusczech or better yet, discuss how lysa arryn getting laid good and proper at any point prior to the poisoning of jon arryn could of prevented the entirety of the northern rebellion..
This is all overtly explained in the show, isn't it?
Lysa killed him, at the request of Stinky Finger, so that the Lannisters might be blamed and so that friction might arise between the two great houses of Stark and Lannister.
if dude had stinky fingers westeros would be in this mess... Dude edged that woman to insanity...poor girl.
Robert tells Ned that Lysa ran off to the Eyrie and took her son-who was supposed to be fostered at Casterly Rock with Tywin. What Pycelle says here regarding the fostering is important. Robert made the fostering deal with Tywin...and Jon changed it. Imagine if Tyrion was Ned-and Pycelle says this to Ned about Robert Arryn being fostered at Dragonstone. How does the questioning go then? Jon Arryn helped Tywin during Robert's Rebellion. There is NO way Aerys sent a demand to Jon Arryn to kill Robert and Ned via a bird. NOT unless Aerys also sends men...and also sends for the other Baratheon brothers and Benjen. Either Jon lied about that order from Aerys or Pycelle sent a fake demand from Aerys. This means that Tywin sent it, basically.
I agree. Thank you, Robert.
good analysis as always. but i think, up to some point little finger and varys have acted together. they had seperate goals of course but both of them desperately sought chaos for their plans. and in the first book when varys visited ned in the dungeon he refered to little finger as second most evil man in kingslanding and claimed that he fed little finger with the informations he choose and let little finger think varys was in his hands. also when arya was practising syrio's homework with the cats, she witnessed illyrio and varys's dialog which illyrio said to varys "if one hand can die why not a second, you have done this dance before my friend." which he refered to the killing of jon aryn was actually varys's job. i think Varys analyzing people into the their deeps (perhaps with the help of magic) and knowing how to manipulate them without leaving any trace. perhaps little finger might have awared the situation but ignored as long as it is beneficial to act together.
That squire at 2:05 looks like Tyland Lannister from House of the dragon.
I believe it’s the same actor
Let me quote a different Snow (Coriolanus Snow from the Hunger Games).
"It's the things we love most that destroy us."
Varys "knowing" that a poison was used that leaves no trace places him firmly on the side of the poisoners or at the very least in the position of a spy who saw them planning it. He remained inactive then silent, therefore complicit. In any case he tells Ned only half the truth, not disclosing who poisoned Jon. And Dumbned doesn't ask, nor does he even notice he is being fooled.
So Varys was involved, not just Littlefinger. As to why it all happened, Varys tells us that too. "Jon Arryn started asking questions". Varys was the first to know, the same way he already knew what Jon was going to find but it was all too early for that destabilising secret to be revealed, as Viserys and Drogo were not ready to invade. At this point I believe GRRM had not yet thought of the Young Griff plot and had Varys and Illyrio sincerely support the Dothraki plan, which is why they invested invaluable dragon eggs, be they a portable fortune or symbols of legitimacy, into it.
So Varys provided information about Jon Arryn investigating, Littlefinger arranged the poisoning and maybe Pycelle provided the poison too, only lying to Tyrion about it later. We may wonder if Littlefinger hoped to be made Hand himself instead of Ned. The letter to Cat' would have been meant to intimidate her instead, so she would keep Ned in Winterfell. This is probably what Lysa thought Cat' would do. Once Ned was there, Littlefinger's offer to him was to help him rule under Joffrey, silently preparing to push Ned to lose his head later for the same crime of knowing Joffrey's secret whenever the time was right to be named in his stead.
It was Euron/Daario
I never did wonder why Jon died,I thought cause he was investigating. Ill watch this
Man... I really wish you were the narrator of the aSoIaF series on audible
Yall r actually good no book and the show mixed up
WHO KILLED JON 👆🏿
I always disliked this part in game of thrones personally. The whole 'little finger was the real master mind' feels like something that had been added to the script much later in the story, rather than planned from the start. It fits far better that cercei was behind it, with a clear motive of not wanting to have her incest story discovered, rather than little finger playing 5d chess. We are shown the lannister willingness to kill to keep their secret when Jaime pushes Bran out the window. We essentially are given all the building blocks, with Bran and Jon Arryn for the big discovery that the heir to the throne is not legitimate, and thus the necessary clash of stark vs lannister has to follow. When it turns out Cercei is not behind the killing of Jon Arryn, then it basically just says it is pure luck she is not caught before the book even starts, and that completely diminishes the build-up we see in book one in my opinion. It takes her from being a person with an active agency in her own story to one without much agency, just for the sake of "little finger likes chaos"
When in doubt, blame Bloodraven!
Do you have your content in podcast form? I'd like to listen to it without a RUclips video running and TBH I don't want to pay for RUclips premium to get running on lock screen
Great video. Suggestion: Who sent the assassin to kill Bran with the Valyrian steel blade? Jaime or Littlefinger? I always thought it was Jaime but perhaps I’m wrong.
it was jeoffrey. it is stated pretty obviously in the books.
@@awcxy But how? Jeoffery was still only prince and on the Kingsroad down to King’s Landing. Maybe it’s a small detail but I kinda consider it a rather important detail. Are the books really that different from the show? The first 3-4 seasons I’m referring to, I’ve discredited the latter half of the show.
@@cardenova jeoffrey heard robert say that it would be kinder to put bran out of his misery and since jeoff always wanted to impress his "father" he stole the dagger from him and gave it to the assassin before leaving for King`s Landing. The assassin hid for a few days in the stables before attempting to kill bran. Up to season 4 the series is pretty faithful to the books, But I guess they forgot to solve the mistery in the series.
@@awcxySo is the spelling of his name 🤦🏼♀️.
Without listening, I'm pretty confident it was little finger who did it cuz he knew lysa arryn was in love with him and used that marriage to his own benefit
Jon Arryn with the stones over his eyes was my discord picture for ever 😂😂
His wife, with Littlefinger. Varys involved - you know, keep the peace at whatever cost(and revealing Cersei’s affair would have spoiled that). There, you have it!
The question is why Littlefinger relies on Lyssa and others tolerate her when she's clearly unhinged. She's Petyr's only play for power but it really is a long shot.
Petyr does not really have a powerbase. He's a very minor lord. If he marries Lysa, Robyn Arryn become his ward, and Peter can rule the Vale. After Lysa's murder, we see how Peter has some Vale lords on his side, and how his money or bribery bring others over. None of this happens if Jon Arryn is alive.
You should do audio books
lol, i constantly forget it was Littlefinger and Lysa who did in Jonaarhyn. who i always thought had one name. like Prince.
Just been re listening to the audio book, can anyone tell me how ned real8ses it's twinsest? Cos it seemed to me it went like this: ned decides to send the girls home, speaks to sansa who says 'he's nothing like that old king', ned realises the royal kids aren't Roberts, confronts cersei about adultery, then accuses Jamie as tge father, but why does he make the jump from adultery to incest, nothing is shown to happen between neds realisation of adultery and acussing cersie of incest?
This video has helped me to come up with a small theory of my own...
What if, Little finger did send the catspaw with King Roberts group to Winterfell, and told him he needs to kill one of Cats sons after Ned left with Robert, not knowing he would even be crippled by Jaime, so that Cat would follow Ned and inquire about the blade.
This way, he had multiple reasons to blame the Lannisters in the case that Ned was too slow to understand the bastardy of Cerseys children.
He knew that soon Robert will die - one way or another, which will prevent him from telling Ned the knife was his.
He knew that Cat would trust his word, and that Ned would trust her.
Having the Starks go after the Lannisters from betraying the king and for killing Jon Arryn might be a good idea, but it would definitely be better if they also thought that they had tried to kill one of their kids...
The catspaw simply thought it would be easiest to dispose of the comatose boy.
For me it's just weird that many people believe Jeffrey sent the catspaw, I just don't see the reason Jeffrey would do it... He is cruel, yes. And is looking to diss Starks whenever he can.
But it seems to me that he has the slight sense to not try to harm any of his betrotheds family - at least until Nymerya humiliates him...
I could be wrong, but in my head, it fits
I don't think Joffrey sent the Catspaw. That would mean Joff cared about Bran to provide the merciful death. Joff is a narcissist. And where would he get the knife? I tend to be think Littlefinger was behind it.
Would love to see Wheel of Time added
Littlefinger and Lysa. Also Pycelle. Lysa to be with Littlefinger and Robin. Littlefinger most likely either to inherit the Vale or because Jon found out about all the theft. Pycelle also helped it along to hide Cercei and Jaime's affair. Lysa poisoned him, on Littlefingers instigation. Pycelle witheld the medicine required to save him.
Lysa admits it, yes, Lannister is involved, but Jon was an avid denier of Ned claiming Aegon as his bastard... The seed is strong! He figured out Robin was Little fingers son, Ned has the true heir, and Roberts kids were Jaimies. Little finger needed the chaos to continue for his own machinations
re: Jon was an avid denier of Ned claiming Aegon as his bastard... The seed is strong! He figured out Robin was Little fingers son, Ned has the true heir,
where are getting this?
The seed is strong is an incest reference
I thought Lysa did it to get her kid away from Tywin/stannis cuz he was going to be fostered and also was doing it for peter
Petyr put Lysa up to it and she did admit it and played the naive Ned and Catelyn.
In the books, I do concur that Sansa is a weak link in Littlefinger's game. Everything he has done has been cold and calculating, covering all his tracks, but his feelings for Sansa was an anomaly. He wanted her because Sansa reminded her so much of Catelyn Tully when she was younger, and Littlefinger had a thing for her years ago.
Sansa in the books had been witnessing and surviving through all the political murder and intrigues at King's Landing. Often needing protection provided by someone. Haphazardly, luckily, but surviving nonetheless. And quite possibly learning how the game is played.
If only GRR Martine got the follow on books going.
Wow, after all these years I just found out who did it. (I haven't read the books). I am shocked but not surprised, smh.
They mentioned it in the show tho.
If in doubt blame Littlefinger merch incoming
What happened Gemma's channel? Secrets of the citadel??
Would love a video on who, in hindsight, should have been King after Robert’s rebellion. Robert’s wasn’t a great King, and I don’t think Ned would have navigated being King well based on his time in Kings Landing. Could Jon Arryn have been King? Was there another person with a blood connection that could have been a better King?
It was sir pounce!
It would have been so fun if Tyrion "interrogation" of Pycele had been book accurate! Suddenly bursting into Pycelle's cell in the dead of night with a massive mountain warrior would have been a chaotic, jolting event. Followed by Tyrion purring questions gently while Shagga puts the squeeze on him. I can picture it so well mentally.
He also has Shagga cut off his beard in the books, which is magnificently long and bushy as a status symbol of his age and wisdom as a grand maester, but after that it never really grows back to its former glory. A long-lasting visible sign of his humiliation that book Tyrion is very proud of lol
@@TheIndieKitten Another great detail. Thanks for reminder.
When in doubt, blame Littlefinger!
Lysa didn't kill Jon to stop him from sending Robin away, she killed him because he would find out through his new knowledge of genetics that Robin wasn't his son, bu Littlefinger's
Lysa Aryn admitted it and I still don’t believe it! There’s too much suspicion and questions surrounding John Arryn’s death.
I think it’s more believable that he did it himself.
Easy to forget how good this story was until you get a video like this
So, we know that Littlefinger (LF) has Lysa poison Arryn and Lysa writes to Cat to tell her the Lannisters did it as the King and his entourage are traveling the 1500 miles between KL and Winterfell (even at 30 mi/day that's 50 days in each direction). BTW, who's in charge in KL for all that time?
What does LF hope to achieve with Arryn's death? Did he expect Baratheon to name Ned Hand? Why would LF want this? Ned would be new to KL but there's no guarentee that Ned would screw up so badly. Ned confronts Cercei because the king is still alive. Does LF know that Cercei has arranged Robert's death on the hunt? Does LF know that Renly has the backing of the Tyrells and will jump Stannis's claim? Because without those 3 things LW does not get his war between Lannister and Stark. And if Ned prevents Robert's death and proves to Robert the children are not his, then we have the 7 Kingdoms go to war against the Lannisters who will be destroyed. Cercei, Jaime, and the children are killed immediately, and instead of sowing chaos, Baratheon is more secure on the throne, Ned or someone other loyalist is Hand, and Robert is free to marry again and have legit children. And unless Stannis is somehow killed in this Lannister war, then the best general is Robert's heir.
It seems there a big missing piece to LF's plot to murder Arryn.