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Marcus Borg: "Why Jesus Matters"
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- Опубликовано: 17 мар 2013
- "Jesus matters for Christians because he was for us the decisive disclosure of God." | "The notion of Jesus' death as a substitute for our sins was not found in the first 1000 years of Christianity." Just two quotes from an extraordinary "Lent Event" Forum with Jesus scholar Marcus Borg.
The All Saints Rector's Forum on Sunday, March 17, 2013.
For more on All Saints Church visit www.allsaints-p....
when the bible and Jesus conflict, go with Jesus... what a concept thank you!
This is stupid. The Bible and Jesus are in Harmony.
I appreciate Marcus Borg and I've read many of his books. He has helped me tremendously through the years.
Borg and scholars like him allowed scores of Christians to realize they could follow Jesus without being conservative/traditional Christians. We don't have to agree with everything Christians believe to still be followers of Jesus. Even though I am less liberal than he is with my faith, I do agree with him on some things and believe he had many great things to say. I love that he said Jesus is the decisive disclosure of what God is like. That's how many of us have felt about Jesus.
I personally know several people in my area (the Bible Belt) who felt Borg saved their faith, because they realized they could still be Christians despite not always holding to the traditional views.
Same here. The fundamental approach to faith can only carry one to a certain point. Yet, I still find myself learning from fundamental pastors as well.
It really doesn't matter what your personal beliefs are. What is important is what Jesus has said very clearly in the Gospels, and if you can't support anything you believe with what he's said, then you really can't call yourself a Christian, can you?
Re-watching this brilliant presentation by Marcus Borg with deep gratitude for his work and witness that continues to live on. We lost you too soon, dear friend. But la lucha continua -- the struggle continues.
Borg's idea that Chrisian salvation is not about the substitutionary death of Jesus is something I'd like to look at in more detail. Can anyone recommend the book or books by him that most completely demonstrate this point? Thank you.
RIP Marcus. Prayers for his family, friends, and loved ones. Thanks for his scholarship and his ministry.
I love this talk. Note to All Saints Church Pasadena: Have folks sit behind your speakers who have a sense of humor (these two men NEVER smile) or who don't go to sleep (the guy with the sunglasses).
Brilliant and exactly what is needed for inter-faith harmony. Elevating words above God is the major cause of fanaticism. God has been understood differently in different religious traditions. What lets us accept all traditions is the idea that words of scriptures can never capture God as He is.
I have friends who would call Borg a heretic. I once thought that way myself. He is certainly a gentle man of faith who does not appear to be a wolf in sheep's clothing but a man of experience, conviction and conversion from conservative thinking toward critical thinking. He is a highly educated man who seeks honesty as his highest calling, and one who introduces a form of sanity into a world of dogma (deadly orthodoxy).
Borg's statements about three kinds of Christians is liberating. I spent a lifetime trying to be a second person of the trinity guy, but it never worked as advertised for me. If anything, I have an affinity to God, the sacred, and relate to that reality, not the other two - which to me seem to be mostly about the human propensity/capacity/desire to respond to emotional worship manipulations.
I don't know about Jesus walking and talking with me, and I have shameful doubts about those who say he does with them. I have evolved to an intuitive, logical, historical (faith in historical reality) and a metaphorical faith, not an experiential faith. I am more at rest here than anywhere I have dwelt before.
As the word heresy has its linguistic roots in a Greek word for choice, I agree we may label Dr. Borg a heretic because he has chosen a lifetime of study to articulate truly profound and meaningful theologies that work for thinking Christians in the 21st century. Excellent lecture. Thanks for sharing.
Background during introduction is hilarious....fidgeting, eating, looking around, even Marcus. Very good the camera focused in when Marcus began to speak, although those people didn't crack a smile. Had to listen to him speak without the video to avoid distraction. Great, as always, talk by Marcus Borg.
Professor Borg had a good heart and even though I disagreed with him on several things, I admired his genuine love for God. His admiration for Jesus was something I always respected. "In the life of Jesus, we see the decisive disclosure of what God is like and what God's passion is..." I love that quote and that's how I feel about Jesus as well.
Borg's studies of Christianity and the Bible led him not to atheism, but a different type of faith. He held some views other scholars certainly disagreed with, but he was willing to listen to their views and was not hostile toward them.
I do question his argument that Jesus' death as a substitute for sins was not found prior to the date he mentioned. As Bart Ehrman has pointed out, this seems to be what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 15:3... I just heard Borg's explanation for the sacrifice thing, but am not sure who to believe with that argument.
Borg's argument is supported by in the classic study by Gustav Aulen, Christus Victor, but I would like to hear what other critical scholars think of the argument.
What do you mean by 'a different type' of faith?
Some people desire to label the bible inerrant and infallible. I wonder if that is an attempt to make the bible perhaps the forth entity of the trinity. Why is it so hard to accept that the scriptures have great wisdom of humanity and at times it is a horrible text. We can still refer to it as the word of God.
I fell away of self. I wanted to stay. I experienced God- I thought it was all like Aesops's Fables.Christianity. But now I know that God exists.A word to describe God is not a word. God is everything-not a being, not intervening not a something that you pray to. Everywhere and Everything. I was surprised. Even the rocks and soil. Jesus was there to sustain me with his example, and I love him. That is my tradition-I'm also Indian, and I know that is the same God.
That same lady is also incorrect in saying the Catholic Church condemns the usage of God as a mother.
There are a few well educated Christians who are also biblical scholars and who have transformed their view of Christianity to a point where it’s closest ally is non-theist humanism.
It really doesn't matter what your personal beliefs are. What is important is what Jesus has said very clearly in the Gospels, and if you can't support anything you believe with what he's said, then you really can't call yourself a Christian, can you?
The level of heresy here is so sad.
If indeed he didn't find his way out of here, he will be viewing us across the great divide from hell.
The lady in the Q & A was wrong in saying the Catholic Church excommunicated Fox.
The lady in the question and the answer session who said that Matthew Fox was excommunicated, that statement is not true.
Indeed this a Christmas gift renewal. 12-25-122
Marcus gives speeches while watching tennis.
"The notion of Jesus' death as a substitute for our sins was not found in the first 1000 years of Christianity."--That's just plain wrong on several levels. That's teaching which ignores the writings of the Old Testament, and it also teaches that Jesus--the Son of God who was also God, and knew all scripture inside and out--was actually unaware of the teachings of the O.T., and that paints Jesus as either being ignorant, stupid, or a phony.
Unless of course you just want to reinvent Jesus to fit your own theology, which is what Marcus Borg has done.
If Jesus was fully human as well as fully God he would have had human limitations. Jesus said he did not even know when the last judgement day was. So I can't see your argument.Also Jesus dieing for sin is an act of love not appeasement to God.
I applaud Marcus Borg for keeping Christianity fresh, alive and in debate. His argument here is that a kindly, 'good' God would forgive human sin and Jesus' death was not needed to forgive us. But there are numerous examples of sacrifices made to God in the Old testament. How would he have explain that? Perhaps this is explored in other of Borgs works but not in this talk.
Yes. It is. Listen to his Easter presentation to the same church. He covers all of it. Brilliant.
Borg's idea that Chrisian salvation is not about the substitutionary death of Jesus is something I'd like to look at in more detail. Can anyone recommend the book or books by him that most completely demonstrate this point? Thanks.
Thank you for posting this. To jbobalik below: Indeed there is no way to know the Father but by the truth that Jesus spoke. I would suggest that the institution of the church should allow it to be that simple. I 'm thinking God, and Jesus, would be happy with that. Love one another. Get the institutionality out of it.
I agree with what Borg says here. But there’s not a word about the resurrection. What an enormous absence.
The disciple believes, with the gift of faith given to him/her by the Holy Spirit, in the righteousness of Christ alone.
Dr Borg "...personally I've never had an experience that I would call an experience of Jesus" I mean -WOW- and he yet writes about Jesus?
What's the average age of this group-60? How much of a future does this church have?
what's your point Stan? how old are you? how much future do you have?
Who was the person he mentioned from El Salvador?
Oscar Romero
Um, we are suspect of anyone 40 or under who has many convictions. Yet, we would call a 30 to 32 year old man named Jesus simply a remarkable human being even when he miraculously defies that age-related wisdom. I think Jesus show that when you saw Him, you saw the Father, just as He said. Some things are beyond our comfortable comprehension, no matter our age.
***** In fairness, 32 ain't what it used to be. Vastly different societies between the modern world and Judea 2000 years ago. A modern 32 year old is going to be vastly different than one then. I don't think he was talking to all cultures across all of time, but the current context. It can still be held up as too flippant a comment for sure.
Please allow me to add: I think the Holy Spirit that comes from the Father is the point. Period.
A person? His signifiance is a sign of His divine source. I don't think Borg doesn't worship Christ as sacred. If He doesn't call HIm son of God, he is still not just a person.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Yes God SO LOVED the world. What's next? I want to learn more about Jesus being fully human, and how to really follow HIm, but I know too Jesus not only is the greatest disclosure of God, but also He IS God.
flash91214 Thanks for your thoughtful comment! I appreciate it!
This guy is not a Christian.
After watching this video I feel there is not even one slight reason for joining christianity
Join the Red Sox!
As a devout Christian, I agree with you in this instance.
Gospel Mark chapter 10 verse 45,
"the son of man came to give his life as a ransom for many"
are JESUS CHRISTS EXACT WORDS.
SEE Romans ch3 verse 24,25 etc........
Mr Borg is a nice chap, but he has made the error of many academics who are listening to human logic and human sentiment
RATHER than to the God, the Holy Spirit and to Jesus Christ and to Scripture.
Natts Bab Those words were written by men. No one actually has the "exact" words of Yeshua written down because he did not write them down himself. Human logic is needed in order to understand this.
The Holy Spirit speaks to us in ways that are far beyond what the scriptures have.
God speaks to us in ways that are far beyond what the scriptures can convey.
Logic will help you to understand that. What is in your heart cannot be expressed by mere words. You must look beyond the scriptures and filter out the human parts. Only then will you see what lays underneath. Here is a parable that Yeshua spoke (that was written down by Thomas)
"The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!"--- Yeshua
Think about what that means. To filter out all of the little "fish" and select the large "fish". Get to the core. Look for the main one. That "fish" is Yeshua himself!
The portion of Matthew 13: 47-53 is but a copy and further misinterpretation and embellishment upon the more simple and fundamental teaching of Yeshua.
AtomicKinetic12 you are pretty good at understanding the bible.
most pastors never graduate from malachi 3.10.
they are stuck in the tithe argument their whole mministeries long, sad failures...
Natts Bab Here's another interesting comparison between Thomas and Luke/Matthew.
"The (Father's) kingdom is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninety-nine and looked for the one until he found it. After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, 'I love you more than the ninety-nine.'" ---Yeshua
Luke's version: 15: 3-10 is another man's trying to understand the more simple and basic teaching. It has been thought upon and given a meaning that Luke took from Matthew. But as it was written down by Thomas in its more basic and simple form one can see it with a different perspective.
The idea held within the parable is to be selective. To look at the more fundamental aspects of the teachings. To know that God is the large "sheep" or "pearl" that is hidden within you and to filter out all of the other parts.
As so one must also read the scriptures in this way. Not to discard it but to understand that these words are from the minds of human beings. Look beyond the finite interpretations of ancient men and see the universal core teachings which go beyond dated scriptures. Find the hidden meaning. The Holy Spirit will guide you through this.
not all true: judaism is waiting, asking, praying, lamenting for the messiah.. for them he would be the fulfillment of the torah. for christians the messiah arrived/arrives. so the celebratory 'tonus' of the new testament, and in 'thinking jesus', followed by 'acting' if appreciated, maybe.. bye now
Why's this guy shouting?
Borg was not a Christian. He denied the essentials of the faith such as the virgin birth, the atonement for sins, and the bodily resurrection. He was a Progressive Christian, which means not a Christian according to the Bible or the historic faith. Marcus Borg is wrong to say that Jesus and the Bible conflict. That is not true.
Marcus Borg was a heretic. I would have loved to debate him. The need for the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sin begins in the Garden and is taught throughout the whole of Scripture. Jesus Himself said this is the reason why He came!
And the fundamentalist literalist Christian wing has spoken, ignoring ALL Bilbical historical scholarly research and focusing on the surface at all costs. The ineffable and mystic elements of Christianity are incomprehensible to such people.
As I Catholic theologian, I find merit in Marcus Borg's argument that forgiveness of sins is available without the atoning death of Jesus:
The Christian churches, misled by their triumphalism, have imagined that salvation history begins with the fall in the Garden and then jumps immediately to the birth of Jesus Christ who came down from heaven in order to open up the gates of heaven by dying for our sins. In this narrative, the importance of Jews and Judaism in God's plan of salvation becomes either systematically distorted or it gets passed over in silence. Within Judaism, the Hebrew Scriptures amply demonstrate God’s readiness to forgive sins following the act of teshuvah [i.e., turning back to God and God's ways]. See, for example, the classic case of David finding forgiveness for his sin of adultery and murder (2 Sam 11-12, Ps 51).
Even in the Gospels, as this dialogue testifies, Jesus himself exemplifies his Jewish upbringing in proclaiming his Father’s readiness to forgive sins without any reliance upon Jewish suffering generally or upon his future crucifixion in particular. For far too long, the theologies of penal substitution have truncated and obscured the abundant forgiveness of God. Accordingly, readers are invited to join Edward Schillebeeckx in again affirming that “we are not redeemed thanks to the death of Jesus but despite it."
To better understand this, go to payhip.com/b/dYFS
Peace and joy in pondering the great questions,
Dr. Aaron Milavec
You actually believe in a physical Adam and Eve? Even the author of Genesis 2 didn't. The Hebrew reads "ha-adam," which can be translated as "the earthling." It is a narrative never intended to be taken literally (except by those who can't possibly comprehend the concept intellectually.)
@@aaronmilavec1579 I heard Borg's lecture about Albert Schweitzer, who thought that Jesus believed his death would save all others from destruction during the Messianc tribulations that had been prophesied.
christ is what he said he is. there is no way to the father but thru the son.you give him a bad rap
Heretic alert, he is at best a philosopher and not a true believer, he doesn't know the Bible so anything he says about Jesus or the Christian faith are made up and unfound. He criticises those who believe that the Bible is inerrant and infallible, so he didn't refer to it at all, as if saying that he knows more about Jesus than what we can read from the book, this is the most serious mistake of deviating from the truth. No wonder he does not believe in redemption, he places Jesus on the par with Buddha, and he doesn't even know that only Jesus can save souls. I'm so disappointed that a church can come out with preachings like this.
He doesn't know the biblie? He's a bible scholar, i bet he knows the bible much better than you and he surely does know it better than most of the people.
Maťo Kováčik
Gospel Mark chapter 10 verse 45,
"the son of man came to give his life as a ransom for many"
are JESUS CHRISTS EXACT WORDS.
SEE Romans ch3 verse 24,25 etc........
George Barnaby no matter how many times you post it, it doesn't mean he actually said it or that the phrase, as translated, means what you think. Sorry.
Understanding that the bible is not inerrant and infallible is probably the first thing that one struggles with when engaging in serious academic bible study. It smacks you in the face and can shake one's faith to its very core, but it is also something that every bible scholar confronts and wrestles with throughout his or her study of the bible. This does not mean that the Bible is not "god-breathed" or God inspired. However, it is important to understand the history of how the Bible was recorded, and the potential for the recording/translating/editing to be shaped by human influence and sometimes human imperfections.
Reading the Bible through an academic lens reveals so much more than solely reading the Bible from a devotional standpoint.
hamstercatfish don't be so quick to call someone a heretic-especially someone who has dedicated his entire life to biblical scholarship. Keep wrestling with these ideas mate!
don't think he's an idiot...just in need of certainty lest his world crumble.
This church is in California, a majority-minority state, and there are maybe half a dozen non-White faces at most?
What happened to "Celebrate diversity"? Guess they didn't get that memo.
That's the best criticism you have? The church is in Pasadena, a very affluent city. I suspect most of the local population are white.
Would that really change anything for you?
Haha I know this comment is a decade old, but it's just so stupid 😂