Great video! Thank you for sharing the disassembled and comparison of these two pens. I have theWS 699 and it burps all over place 😡😤. I will definitely get the Pilot 723 or 823.
Hmm, if you're comfortable doing so, try pulling out the nib & feed. Look for and debris or something impeding flow to the nib. Try readjusting the nib position on the feed to see if it improves.
@@Doodlebud Happy Sunday!!! I would to thank you for your advice. I pulled and cleaned the nib and feed. I filled it and it is writing really good with no burping this far. I appreciate your help! Have a great day and a fantastic week!
In the wrist watch community, it would be called an homage. In that community, it can almost cause an online fistfight. I don't have an issue with it, though. As long as you go into it with your eyes open as to what you are getting and what to expect; you can get a good buy sometimes. It's great that you point these differences out. Helps people make informed decisions.
Yup, it's crappy to get your design work ripped off. But it just happens. Like you said, as long as you know you're not getting something just as good as a Rolex for $50, it's all good. But if you really think your $50 knock of Romex really is just as good... Please share with me whatever it is you're smoking cuz it's GOT to be good.
I have an issue with it though, its outright copying of someone else's work - while that may not matter to you as a consumer, it sure as heck matters to the team that spent countless hours doing the R&D on their product. Yes, lots of watch brands do this and I would never give them a dollar.
@@AlTheEngineeryeah but patents only last so long. I get that in spirit it’s still disingenuous design but after a certain amount of time the only thing that remains Pilots property are the trademarks.
@@LucasKellis sure thing, I wasn't referencing just Pilot. But in general, as an engineer and patent holder myself on multiple inventions and systems, I would absolutely hate it if someone just took my designs, copied them and changed something so tiny and called it their own or "homage"... Its not about the "legalities" for me, its about honorable engineering and the act of piggybacking off of someone else's success without crediting them. Again, I am by no means saying that copyrights and patents must be held for a 1000 years, no, not at all. But what we see in the wrist watch industry, for example, is blatant "copying" under the disguise of "homage" ... some of designs that get copied aren't even that old or dated - but they find ways around the law anyway!
@@Doodlebud I just read this comment, haha cracked me up. Look up Ginault Watches ... they "literally" ripped off Rolex part by part. In fact, their founder was a Rolex clone maker for years, then he just changed the text on the dial and called his watch brand "a homage" ... they aren't cheap at all, they are $1000+, and if I gave you one in hand next to a real Submariner for example, you would NOT be able to tell the difference between them ... (except for the text on the dial). Yet, the guy just changes the dial and hands design and calls it "homage" ... I find that to be absolutely nuts! In fact, in some watch forums, some people would buy the GInault, and buy a used Rolex dial and hands on eBay, do a quick swap, and BAM ... "super fake Rolex"... The fact that they're in business as a "homage" brand boggles my mind. Yes, you have people who are completely OK with this.
I love my Twsbi vac mini. I just wish they would come out with more colors. All they have right now is clear and smoke (as accents, rhetoric body is mostly clear). Same for regular mini. Very limited.
imo unfortunately nothing replaces truly GOLD nib (in writing)... in the end of a day I could have a stick, but with gold nib, and I'd be happy this Pilot's nib looks and writes great imo (I mean what I saw in this review), especially for colorful inks lover :)
It's that good, is it? I'm close to pulling the trigger on one and I'm just about convinced the 823 is going to be my affordable grail pen that can also serve as an everyday workhorse. Of course, $288 US is no small amount of money and I worry that, despite remembering enjoying trying one a while ago and all the many many great things I've heard said and read written about the 823, it'll not quite be what I've convinced myself it's going to be...
@@DanielSmith_19 My personal opinion, absolutely yes, it is that good. I have expensive fountain pens such as Visconti HS and Pelikan M800, yet none of them hold a candle to the 823 when you put the nib to paper. Many fountain pen enthusiast put 823 in such high regard for a good reason. It's a workhorse of a pen that begs to be used everyday, not a piece of pocket jewelry. If you want something to write with, to enjoy writing, 823 is the one to get.
I have my dads legendary parker 51 all gold fountain. Beautiful functional, but priceless. I found same pen in silver on ali express for 99 cents. The parker is fantastic, but the Chinese knock off is not bad. If I have to go out of the house to write, I take the knock off. I love that CHINESE PEN, because if I lose it or something happens to it while I am out of the house, so what? I ordered 10 and gave to my loved ones.
Yup, the low cost pens can be great. Either as a daily carry version an expensive pen you don't want to get damaged/loss, or just as a great pen all on their own.
I know it’s popular but you still couldn’t convince me it’s worth more than 10 times the price, even with the gold nib. I’ve enjoyed my Wing Sungs and I’ve enjoyed my Pilots. In the end, it’s always about the performance. Depending on what I’m doing with the pen decides which pen I use.
There is a point when you simply own too much sub-$50 or sub -$150 pens, that the run of the mill perfectly functional and excellent performing Chinese pens or American/European Jowo pens just don’t excite you any more. If someone has $350 to spare, why have 10 more good pens if you can have 1 exceptional pen, given that you already have 30-50 good pens already. I think both pens have their places in the market.
@@uihcmoht If you have the money to spare, or if you want to access one of the more interesting Pilot nibs, then it is a fine, if pricey option. Of course the nibs that might justify this aren't offered in the US, so you must order directly from Japan. This is worth it, because the 823 is priced much more affordably in it's native market, so the only inconvenience is the shipping, and perhaps customs, depending on where you are customs can be annoying, but for US it is under the threshold where you need to pay any unless you order a bunch of the pens. On the plus side you can get the nibs that make it worthwhile, and you save some money as well. I would love the FA nib in the 823 body, where it would have an ample ink supply, unlike just being convertor fed, although I don't think this is offered as factory, but could be probably ordered from the smaller and more customer oriented pen shops.
@@martinlebl631 I think this goes both ways. I heard Italian pens are also very expensive in Japan and Europeans have to pay a hefty VAT, so I would consider US collectors to be lucky to have so many approachable options, not to mention the availability of all the vintage American pens and parts from yesteryears, and the abundant resources, skilled restorers and estate sale. I am sure those are way less accessible outside of us given the shipping costs.
@@uihcmoht Europe probably has similar amount of vintage floating about, although it might not be quite as popular, as fountain pens never died out to the same extent, and many brands survived, or even thrived, which wasn't the case in US, although many were now restored as zombies to feed upon their former fame, often without doing much more than slapping the brand name on a pen made elsewhere, often in China, with various level of success and quality. Might as well buy a Chinese pen then, for much cheaper, and with similar, or often better quality. Really a shame these people are often in it for a quick buck, and are just pillaging the reputation of old familiar brands, cycling through them once the gig is up. Italian pens are great looking, and often actually intricately crafted, and not injection molded, which is nice, but most don't make their own nibs, and often QC is lacking, which is hard to forgive given the high price. In US you have sales tax, which at the consumer step is like VAT, but less complicated throughout the supply chain, still adds 8 to 10 percent to the prices discussed, as everyone talks prices before tax for some reason, which hardly makes sense. Importing is easier as customs only gets involved with things in high hundreds USD, which makes things easier, whereas elsewhere even twenty USD worth of pens will have a protectionist customs barriers applied to collect a few USD worth of import duty, and often more than items worth in fees, but this isn't done to collect revenue, but to discourage outside trade. In US the level is high enough, so it makes economic sense for the state, as below the cost of collecting would exceed the revenue, and so it isn't done. If it was lowered the rest if the world woukd scream bloody murder, even though they do the same thing, but it could likely lead to employment of many a bureaucrat. As many new pen brands are now skipping importers and distributors, and shipping either direct to consumer, or at least direct to retailer, their prices tend to be more even worldwide as no middle men need to be fed. However, I am not sure the fountain pen demand in Europe and Japan for US fountain pens is of the same volume as the other way around. Shipping from China to US is much cheaper than US to China, but Germany or UK to US is similar either way, and same with Japan, as there us no substantial advantage one way or another.
Hi, Doodlebud! I got two of Wing Sungs tea colored (EF) and transparent with silver trims (F) . On Taobao there are also available 699s with 14k gold nibs (only F) for around 400 RMB and for 150 RMB with fancy nibs for calligraphy (长刀， 刀锋). I got them 11 months ago but used maybe for 6. Here are some my observations. Both pens' caps and barrels started to become milky (cloudy) in the place where they meet each other (under the ring on the cap, above the thread on the barrel and at the end of the barrel due to posting - and I hardly ever post my pens!). The tea one started to have problems with the stable flow (didn't have in the beginning). One of my students (9 y.o. girl) during unscrewing the cap ripped off the clip and finial, revealing a very short screw. I bough a replacement, a wrench and few nibs (EF nib was unbearably scratchy and when it became smooth enough for my taste it also became FM). The cap, despite ordering exactly the same color, came with different shade of brown... I guess the pens come in batches, they add dye by hand. Now, the transparent one - when I try unscrew the the finial it stayed in my hand. I figured out how to screw it back amd after a month I got a wrench to screw it tightly. Unfortunately 6 months later it unscrewed again. The rod after extending is smeared with ink but the vacuum system works properly (I guess the outer o-ring stops on that notch on the rod). During washing I've noticed that there is quite a lot of ink between two o-rings - I'm afraid it may contaminate the ink if I change the color. I didn't notice that problem in the TWSBI iris or even the in the other 699. Last week I've noticed a small clump inside the barrel, yesterday I've unscrewed that part which I was supposed not to unscrew (it is not fit very tightly - my fingers and paper tissue did the trick). In the beginning I thought that this part is made of plastic but it's made of brass coated with black paint (I think). That clump was a strip of coating, and yes the screw stared to corrode... I didn't get to the tea pen inside yet (it's fool of ink) but I'm afraid that it may be happening in there too. I have to mention that when I got both pens big drops of silicone grease were visible in the barrels - again saving time and costs. Last week my wife gave me Pilot 823 as gift for Chinese New Year - it is still in the box waiting for the right ink. Now, I have a question - about scratches (that cloudiness) on the cap or barrel?
@@ichirofakename Nice joke! I've noticed few more things since then BTW. I clean the pens and prepare to decommission (put them in the drawer and forget about them).
Well ! The reverse-engineering efforts by these companies in making 'affordable replicas' and still earning profits are commendable.. Maybe it's time for the premium pen makers to do some 'reverse-reverse engineering', learn how the copycat pen makers are reducing the costs and possibly make their own premium pens more accessible 😀
Well the things I showed outline the difference between low cost & premium pens. Every step adds cost, R&D, premium materials, polishing, QC, etc. That's why they have other pens at lower price points.
Yes, they can open a factory in China, actually they did - 78G is made there (here for me) for sure, Metropolitan, 95S and Custom 74 probably too (I cannot confirm it). Do you you really want Pilot to engage in a race who will make a worse quality product (cutting corners)?
@@Al357Magnum You also need to pay a premium for the brand name... However, one big factor in saving costs is your workforce... what Pilot is paying for their employees also drives the prices. Not just manufacturing costs.
2 года назад+3
Thank you for the video 😘 I've both, loving them both...Just one question : i find the M NIB from my 823 a little little bit too large...Is there any way to slim it ?? Best regards from Colmar, FR 😊👍/ JF
To make it more narrow requires grinding the nib, and that type of grind operation is not a simple DIY. You would need to send it off to someone who knows how to do it, or potentially a nib swap. Sometimes they write a bit wider if its extra wet. You can reduce the flow a bit on a nib to its a bit too wet, but again you need to know what you're doing. I have some videos on those topics to give a look. But I wouldn't recommend doing it on an expensive pen for a first attempt! You can mess it up bad if you don't know what you're doing.
Could you do an episode on the differences in plastics? I've seen some arguments about whether "plastic is plastic" or whether there are for example, varying grades of PMMA. No hate against cheaper pens - but fans of cheaper pens seem to be using the idea that "all PMMA is the same" to denigrate higher end pens. I think you might have something interesting to say about that...
Yeah I was just thinking about that very topic. "Plastic" seems to encompass all the pens that are "plasticy" . But plastic is not just plastic. There is so much engineering that goes into the chemistry to yield different desired properties. There are so many different types it's crazy. Can "look" sorta the same, but are very different. Not a field I've spent a bunch of time in, but maybe I can do some research & put together some info.
@@benwalsh9257 should be noted, the use of the term "precious resin" that montblanc gets heavily criticized for is more of a quirk of translation than anything. In the original German, it is called "edelharz" is the standard term for high grade resin. "Edel" when directly and strictly translated means "noble" or "precious". But in material terms, it is used more to describe a material that is inert / resistant to change. Like stainless steel or the noble gasses. Thus, a quirk of translation shifted the meaning quite significantly. Montblanc takes a ton of flak for this when it's not really warranted.
So true. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 Though I did some more research, searching and asking if there was anyone selling a secondhand Pilot 823 in my country. Luckily I was able to buy one for around $196.
Love the Wing Sung 699. I have a brown and a blue, both with medium nib. Super smooth writers, elegant look and feel, and because of the price I am comfortable using them every day and carrying them around. I have several "good" Pilot pens too, but these 699s get used more.
Very good for daily carry. I know some would be very nervous about taking their 823 around with them for fear of dropping. This is perfect for being a daily user, that works great, and if it does break not a big hit to the wallet!
Here's a tip: don't buy cheap underwear either. Sure it provides a layer of protection. But when you have a name like mine, by the end of the day you'll be sitting on the couch with a bag of ice from the extreme chafing 🔥
Outstanding deep dive into the process analysis. I'm old, on a fixed income, with no investments, so the 823 will probably not ever been in my price range. If I get either of these pens, it will likely be the 699. But if I find myself dissatisfied with it, at least I'll know why!
Glad you enjoyed the vid. 699 is a pretty good pen. My 823 is great, feels better in the hand & writing is better. But to be honest I just don't use it as much as I thought I would. I find it too wet (at least mine anyways) for the nib size. Everyone is different & we all have different preferences & expections, but I'll probably end up using the 699 more as I like the thinner line & ink flow. I did have to open it up a touch as I was a bit too dry, but that took all of 20 seconds. So yeah, it's a decent pen 😁
I am so thankful for my Wing Sung 699, which I purchased for $19.99. Pilot Custom 823 $360 (current price). We are talking about $340 cost difference. I am not expecting to find all of the special manufacturing found in the 823, to be found in a $19.99 pen. My med. nib did require some nib smoothing on arrival, however, I have had no leaking or burping in my 699. If I was willing to pay the $340 price difference, it better be a "better-made pen." You can purchase a 699 with a gold nib for $79-$89. I find it interesting when FP connoisseurs speak despairingly about the 699, as if they are actually trying to compare the two pens. I always think could they really believe they can go to a pen store and buy a Pilot Custom 823-type pen for $19.99-$24.99, with gold nibs and nicer manufacturing techniques. Oh well, I guess we can all dream. Even for the budding FP Elite, the 823 is at the lower end of grail pens. The Lanbitou 3088 is the clone for the TWSBI Eco. Enjoyed how the video shows why there is such a cost difference.
I've been pleasantly surprised with the 699. Better than expected. My nib does dry up if left for a few days I find. That's about the only annoyance. My 823 though, if it's left unused for months, I unscrew the cap & it writes immediately. Never had a single skip or hard start.
Wing Sung 699 is an absolutely decent pen for it'd price. I got mine for $20 when it was first launched in 2019. I have two of them, a brown and a clear, with fine and medium nibs, the medium being smoother and better overall, the fine is little toothy. Never had any issues with them and what most amazed me is that they write every time, regardless of how long I have them unused. I think this model is a very good way of testing if you would like a 823 before you pull the trigger on it. Regarding the price, let's be honest, the reason you buy 823 is the #15 nib, the filling system is just a bonus. In europe 🇪🇺 all #15 nib Pilot pens cost €360, regardless of filling system. For example a 743 costs the same as 823.
Terrific analysis and comparison! From an engineer working in manufacturing, I appreciate your explanations as to the fit and finish and suspected manufacture process. Your videos are consistently informative and entertaining. Please keep up the great work!
Well, I just did something really fucking stupid. I was writing on the couch and got up to get myself a drink from the kitchen. When I approached the couch, cup in hand, I tripped and suffice it to say, disaster ensued. My tea went all over my Endless Recorder notebook (which was closed, luckily, so the faux leather cover took the brunt. It's got a bit of water damage on the top two corners, but nothing to write home about). The worse part was that I planted my knee in the middle of the seat cushion... right where the pen was. Now, I'm not a heffer but I'm 5'9" so I'm not exactly a pixie either. I heard and felt a definite crack. Ink all over the sofa cushion, of course. I picked up the pen and I could immediately tell the pen was seriously bent, the capped section really askew in relation to the barrel. I'm talking a good 10° angle. The cap wouldn't unscrew, so I applied gentle pressure to bend the section back a little till I could remove the cap. I then tried to straighten the section a little more, and the pen broke into two pieces in my hands... or so I thought. I was sure that the section had broken off, but then I realized it had simply come apart, as if I'd unscrewed it. I checked the section and barrel for cracks with a loop... nada. Zilch. The threads seemed fine too, so I screwed the section back into place, et voilà, we're back in business. The only damage is a tiny hairline crack in the cap. Boo fucking hoo. Now if that isn't the best ad for the Wing Sung 699, I don't know what is. 😋
I got the 699 in black, and i was surprised how much i loved it. Writes beautifully, looks good(not quite as refined as the 823). But i only paid $20 USD($25 Cad) and at that price its a steal. I don't think i could ever justify the $300+ price of the 823. And while i'm not a huge fan of copying other pens, you have to ask your self.. if you get 95% of the writing experience for just 10% of the price, which pen is really the "rip off"??
Pilot 823 is around 10 times more expensive than Wing Sung 699. Is it 10 times better than Wing Sung? But Pilot could actually prove more durable over time due to better fabrication. And here Pilot could score some points off the Wing Sung. Very good presentation, as usual! 👍
Original vs fake. Japanese Quality vs Chinese Garbage - that's the difference. Talk after an year of use, the Pilot would continue to be in the same state, but I cannot say the same about the Wing Sung shit
I love mine! Just like you said, lots of ink, great “design”, quality pen for the price point. I loved mine in amber with a fine that I went and bought another in smoke with medium. Beautiful pen, decent writer… I don’t have an 823 but I am happy with these 699s.
You could get a Sung 699 or something suitably cheap and crappy like that, and treat it like a kit. Then remake parts of it and improve the finish, learn to grind nibs, fix pens or learn to make your own.
Seems like you're comparing Snap-On to Princess Auto (Harbor Freight for those in the states). All are just tools but if longevity is needed, Aa person will go with what is needed. Another excellent video.
I've gotten many sweet deals at harbour freight! Love the store when I visit the US. For the one off random use tools I absolutely buy from them. But for some stuff when you need high grade gear, have shell out the extra coin.
1. Thanks for all that info. 2. Even after deducting the premium for the gold nib, there remains $200 or so difference in the prices, reflecting differences in the bodies. The only difference worth as much as $10 to me is the good posting vs. bad posting. The rest of the differences I leave to you engineers to price out, deciding if for you they are worth $190. It seems I am in the target audience for Wing Sung products, as I don't needlessly take apart my pens LOOKING FOR BURRS. (You cray-cray, man!) If I wanted a vac filler, which I almost do, I would probably go for this nice Wing Sung. 3. Sorry for the teasing above. We are different people and so seek different $300+ pens. Mine will have to be a Sailor in purty colors.
Agree. For $300+ I will want something more than an injection molded pen. The 699s I have, four in four different colors have all worked well and problem free for over two years, so to me they were well worth the price. Still haven't disassembled them down to pieces either.
Don't worry about the teasing buddy, you bust my balls with most every comment & I don't mine busting yours 🤣. I'm just curious as hell & have to take things apart & figure them out. One MASSIVE thing I failed to mention are the capital costs differences. Especially the human capital. Wages just happen to be also be 1/10th the cost in China VS Japan. 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
@@Doodlebud Capital cost are tricky to measure, as for models years or decades in production they are long amortized, and cost of making molds for injection molding are surely cheaper in China, but if Peneider in Italy can make one for $30K, then it isn't that big of a deal. Labor costs are surely way lower in China, but factories in west are often very automated, which is how Lamy can pump out all those Safaris that in Germany sell for under twenty bucks, and that is from a retailer. Of course adding importer and distributor for US causes us to pay more as this middleman has to be fed. And many Japanese pen brands have moved the manufacture of their lower end models to China, but kept the same price, so that a model made in the same factory, but with Japanese brand cost four to ten times than a pen made in the same factory with Chinese brand name. You are paying the whole markup for the brand name, while getting the same pen manufacturing quality, and use of same labor force. Let's not even mention the outrageous deal that is the Monteverde Monza, which is just a very cheap pen with a fancy new label, and is a trap for the uninitiated.
@@Doodlebud 1. I can take things apart but I don't because it is so much harder to put them back together again. 2. Now that you mention it, of course the labor costs are different, and possibly on a par with the ten-times price difference. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the price of each pen covers labor costs. 3. You are a good sport.
DB, nice review. I have several 699's and enjoy them both. The sections on mine are not transparent but match the color of the end cap of the barrel. Also I learned from another you tube fountain pen channel how to remove the entire piston assembly for occasional thorough cleaning. Use of a rubber grip on the gold colored metal trim ring can be unscrewed allowing removal of the piston assembly. I like pilot pens and have several with gold nibs but the 823 for what it is seems a little high on price. I wouldn't knock the quality and longevity of the 823 but it's mostly plastic and not even precious resin or acrylic. Keep up the great work on your videos!!
I knew if I got a good gripper on the part I could remove it, but my confidence in the integrity of the plastic is fairly low. The term "plastic" does seem to blanket all the different types into one. Maybe I should look into getting some info together and do a video on the differences. It can be quite significant.
I gotta be honest, I can actually understand why the Pilot costs more having seen all of these details. I tend to be skeptical of luxury items. I will say, I don't know if it's worth $350 still haha. But I'd be willing to pay a fair amount more for the quality of Pilot.
You can commonly find used ones in great condition for a very good price if you look around. This is a good place I've bought several pens from: www.reddit.com/r/Pen_Swap/
@@Doodlebud Ah thanks man! I just happened to pop over to Ebay after seeing this and these are going new for $210 😳 and the 912 with soft medium are $140. I'm definitely checking pen swap. Thanks again!
Excellent video. I bought this pen years ago, and the price was $20 when it was launched... so as a blue pens lover, I also bought the blue version. They both are real good pens for the price. Now I have the brown one inked up and have swapped the original F to a Jinhao M nib. It really writes like a dream. These Jinhao people have achieved great performance nibs, and they are not hit or miss, like they used to be.
If you had to choose between a pilot prera and wing sung 699 which would you choose? Considering they are in the same price range, which do you consider the better writing experience?
I havent used a prera yet so I really cant give any useful commentary. Writing experience can be a tricky one as its not difficult to get a nib a touch out of alignment and completely change how a pen writes. All depends what you want in a pen. 601 is a vac filler vs converter on the prera. I "think" the prera uses the same nib and feed as from the Kakuno which I have tried and that was very good. So bit of a toss up depending upon what you want. Dont know if that help in any way LOL
Interesting analysis, DB. It reminded me of one Christmas in the 1970’s when my mom got a pie server from someone. My dad looked at it and said, “Hell of a burr on it.” To this day I think of that every time I see a burr on a product.
Thank you for the comparison! Every time I put the WingSung in my cart I take it out! Maybe it’s because I am deep down hoping to one day get a Pilot 823. Though the filling system holds a lot of ink I get bored quickly so I prefer a converter or just half fill the pen (like in my Ecos). And hard to clean!! I am now looking at the Pilot 743 which has the same nib as the 823 but converter fill. They also have many more nib options. Just hard to get here in Canada or the U.S. Perhaps my next Chinese pen purchase will finally be the 699!😃 …and then maybe the 823/743. 🤞🏽Thanks again for the review!
I'm pretty happy with the 699. Works well & good to use. If you one day get 823 that's good, but don't have to have any FOMO. If you're not in love with your 699, maybe don't spend the extra in the 823? Just a thought 🤔 Cheaper way to find out I guess
I actually studied Computer Hardware Engineering, but always ended up doing stuff that used all disciplines. Mechanical, electrical, computer, optics, etc. Was fortunate to have a wide exposure
Very glad to see you radio. My friend Mr zhang produce this wingsung pen. May I have your contact information to talk about your suggestions about his new products? Thanks a lot!
I love the Wing Sung 699 but one of mine had a major issue. It cracked near the back threads and leaks ink. Never dropped, never over tightened and its now not usable. I want a Pilot 823 and will get one eventually. I did win a Pilot 743 US exclusive last year at my local pen show. I love it just wish it was a F nib instead of M and it holds a lot of ink but love love love the vacuum fuller of the 823.
F that. Love DB. Love your vids. Huge fan. Best vids on this hobby! But how much for a plastic pen? WTF? I fell into fountain pens. Hard. Started in March, and now 100 plus in... Many pens in. And found some of the Best are sub $40. Yes splurged on circa 1980 Lamy 2000 (special) 😊, Elite, Narwhal (Liquid Hot Magma #100/100)... But getting beyond that? Grail, Visconti HS BA, Pilot Muy. Have sub , $5 pens... My LBG (my Little Brass Guy). No info. No markings. But is amazing. Writes fantastically. Again, love your work and attention to details. Thank you.
I thought the o-ring provides a better seal around the inner diameter of the barrel if it’s before the threads, so the ink doesn’t seep into the threads? PenBBS did a reversal from “o-ring after thread” to “o-ring before threads” to solve that particular issue. As for CC pens, Sailor also has the O-ring after the barrel to section threads, but I am not sure what that does mechanically other than making the threading action feels more premium.
Great question! If the object of the O-ring is to stop ink from getting into the threads then that is the way you have to do it. But if you want to use an O-ring for stealing you don't usually want to be putting the O-ring for the threads to go over top. Think of where the O-rings are placed when you do an oil change on your oil filter or the drain plug. You want to compress the O-ring, not have threads go over top. This may be a red herring in the context of pens as it's not a harsh environment or have pressures that we dealing with. It will most likely work well but if your design is able to accommodate it, I would recommend doing it how pilot did
@@Doodlebud the more I get into fountain pens the more I am interested in machining and mechanics and to some extent watchmaking and jewelry making. I know so little about them, but I have great appreciation when they are thought of and executed well. These details are the most difficult but not impossible for budget products to do.
Yup, there are things that do cost more to do, so to stay within budget they have to be skipped. But other things can be virtually the same cost but are either missed or neglected
@@Doodlebud and that’s usually where the DIYer inside me steps in. I love to add the finishing touches to my Moonman and Wingsungs. Polishing out the injection marks, Swapping, grinding or tuning the nib, shimming or adding O-rings, Feed or Housing retrofits etc etc. Refining Chinese pens make me feel more capable than I really am. LOL
thanks for the comparisons I own the Wing Sung 698 piston filler with a gold nib that I paid $50 for and love it. Love the concept of vac fillers with shut off valve for travel and though I own 2 opus 88, I would consider the 699 with their finest nib. You cannot beat the price
Interesting breakdown, thanks. Confirmed all the reasons I love my 823. :) Twisbi provides a disassembly tool, and I expect the majority of the cracking comes from people taking apart their pens much more than is necessary.
If you have more than 100 pens and the only ones that crack (even before you open the box!!!) are TWSBI - I don't think the problem is with the users...
My Eco cracked at the grip opening, and the top of the cap, so within the year the whole pen was replaced. Now rationally I shouldn't be hard on TWSBI, but definitely turned off of TWSBI and future TWSBI purchases.
What do you think these clone pens Doodlebud? If you weren't doing this comparison would you be interested in the clone? Do you think it's right to buy one? I feel it's different when talking about clones vs. homage pens. While the price is significantly lower, there isn't a person in the world who would say that the Sailor 1911L or the Platinum President is a 146 clone. As always a damn interesting video. The only way to see how the Wing Sun holds up is a pound for pound use. Can this pen last for 5-10 years with everyday use. If it can then I guess the value is good, but still they didn't design the pen, they just copied it!
Well maybe 5-10 yrs from now I can do a follow up vid 🤣. Yeah having your work copied is just a part of life. With cars for example, many "look" the same but are VERY different. With pens the general shapes are very close to each other. So it's only small nuances which make them different. You can tell when pens have a similar design but are still made differently VS ones where it was just copied.
Perhaps it will just be easier if I make a desktop time machine. 5yrs for the pen, 1 month for us. Would greatly speed up the process. I'll see if I can come up with a simple DIY with a few things I have kicking around the house!
It might just be an impression, but in the video it also looks that the ink in the Wing Sung clings differently to the inside of the barrel and the piston rod. In the Pilot it looks nice and clean, while in the Wing Sung it looks more spotty. Some coating maybe on the inside of the barrel?
The best technical pen review RUclips by a quantum leap. I believe DB was a precision instrument design and construction engineer and it shows with insights into design and material quality. ‘ Please do a comparison between the Replicants , WingSung 699 v. Asvine 126 and the King of the Clones Jinhao
Great break down. I have the 699 and really enjoy it. And it has convinced me that yes, I would be interested in getting the high quality Pilot 823. You get what you pay for--my cap on the 699 will come off if you pull (as I learned accidentally. Thanks for doing what you do.
It's a good $35 experiment to determine if you want to pay $350 for the real deal. And as a bonus, you have a pretty good little $35 pen to use as well.
@@Doodlebud For me it was good enough to keep around, and get a few more colors. Spent the money on a Lamy 2000 with a nice juicy OBB nib, and got it for about $200 as I ordered from Europe. Nice gold nib on that, and without the usual Lamy sweet spot, although of course OBB nib isn't for everyone, but it really shows of shading inks.
@Doodlebud yeah I do enjoy it, and it is a great pen for long writing sessions. I plan on getting a blue one sometime, too.... the 823 is one of my grail pens. So one day....
At best the $35 pen has a gold plated nib, and probably gives you a choice of bottled ink with a converter, or cartridges. (if not a twist, piston, vacuum, or dropper fill pen). The $350 pen likely has a gold nib, and uses bottled ink only. The expensive pen probably has more costly materials used for the trim pieces. There may be a difference in the resins used for the section (if not metal), body, and cap. If both have an aluminum barrel and cap there might be a difference in the alloy used. Final fitting on the expensive pen should be better, but that isn't always the case.
They have a 925 silver cap 601 ,sold around 80USD in China with hooded 14k nib . And if you add another $20, You can got a 601a with 18k golden open nib.
Great comparison video. You are so right, I would choose my Pilot 823 over any of the fountain pens I have. I just got the 823 in November 21' and I'm in love. Maybe this next holiday gift I will get the smoke color 823.♥︎
I was told once that you obtain quality with a product as soon as the client is satisfied with it. You are overdoing and wasting resources if you decide to add anything to it from that point on. I don't know if it's that simple, but it kind of made sense to me at the time.
There definitely is truth to that. However it just depends on who the client is. On items that anyone can buy there is a huge range of expectations. For some "close enough is good enough" holds true, and for others it can be "do it right or don't do it at all." So with this video it sort of shows both sides of those perspectives.
Really appreciate the literally in depth review/comparison. Like many, many, many others this is probably my #1 pen. If anything ever happened to it, I would replace it immediately!
Great video which I’ve finally got round to watching. Even though I’m a non technical bod I found it fascinating. I’d feel uncomfortable about buying a replica of such iconic pen especially when it pays such faithful homage to the original and would prefer to invest that amount on something more individual like the TWSBI. Still paying 35 bucks for a pen that works decently is not too shabby. At the end of the day it’s a classic case of you get what you pay for versus the law of diminishing returns. Thanks again Doodle Bud😊
For the $35 price tag it ain't half bad. Works well, & if you lost it or broke it you wouldn't have the mini heart attack if you did that with a $300-$400 pen.
This might be a good travel pen I was thinking. Lots of ink for a trip so no need to bring cartridges, can seal off the chamber, comfortable enough, decent nib (might need adjustment to get it just right), and don't have to worry if it gets lost, forgotten, confiscated, dropped, etc. I wonder about the plastic durability however. Also the sealing. I might do a follow up Vaccum Chamber test on the pen to test it.
I agree with all the little detail and finishing points but having been very impressed with the Wing Sung 699 I just bought a Pilot - not the 823 but the Custom 74. The Pilot is nowhere near as nice to write with - the nib is draggy and scratchy and hardly writes on upstrokes. I am shocked that the Wing Sung feels so much better and writes so much better.
My 699 writes wonderfully as well. Yeah that sucks when you get a bum nib on a high end pen. You figured the higher price would guarantee that issue be fixed but unfortunately not always the case
The 823 is my best and favorite pen. If I lost all of my pens this would be the only one I would replace my entire collection with. I would need two though, one in F and one in M 😉
Which nib do you prefer? I’m really itching for a 823 - most of my pens are M but I’m thinking of getting a F because I write on yellow legal pads all day and I find that some of my M nibs just lay down too much ink for that cheap paper
Try one first, if you can, at a brick and mortar store or show. If you can't, make sure you can return it without a hassle, and don't fill it, but dip test.
Two questions: Do you open and close the valve on the 823 as it runs out of ink in the feed? If yes, are you closing it while the nib is pointing down? Because if that's how it writes when the feed has stabilised after filling, that seems incredibly wet to me compared to any 823 I've ever used.
If I keep it in my pocket I keep it closed, and for short notes I do not bother opening it, but if writing for a while I will. The one I keep on my desk as a desk pen I leave it open, as there is really no need to close it. The wetness of the flow can greatly depend on ink as well, so this can also help with that I suppose.
@@Doodlebud Reason I ask is that if you close the valve while the nib is pointing down(or even when it's pointing up if there is ink sitting behind the feed), you are displacing whatever the volume is of the piece of rod being pushed into the barrel. So anything with an internal rod(shut-off eye dropper like an Opus 88, bulkfiller, vacuumfiller) will push a couple of drops worth of ink into the feed if you close the knob, unless the air bubble in the barrel can exit the feed through the air channel without being obstructed by ink sitting against the back of the feed; this would obviously make the pen write very wetly. Works the other way around too: before you close the knob on any of these pens, you can hold the pen nib up and fully unscrew and pull the rod back a bit to suck the ink out of the feed before you shut the valve. Then you can be 100% sure it won't leak on a plane because there is only air sitting in your feed.
I was wondering if you could make a video with swapping nibs on the wing sung 699, if you have any spare jowo, bock, schmidt (FH452) number 6 to see if they fit and what is the performance. I like the ergonomics of the pen but i absolutely despise the logo and branding and i am thinking of grinding those out with a dremel. Also a mod idea would be to get the rod out and plug the hole so that it is easy to fill with an ink syringe and have a screw on blind cap. This way i would have a comfy everyday pen easy to operate with good ergonomics that i could use with a number of nibs. Hope to see a video on that. Thanks
That was fun and interesting DB, thanks! The kicker for me was the comparison to the Eco at the end--suggests a fair price for the Wing Sung would be $10 or so less.
David, no argument except I have several Chinese look alike ECO's that cost $1 or $2. So what is the real value of the ECO or any pen for that matter? This type of comparison drives me crazy.
@@donbrownist Me too, but they do not seal well, and the ink dries up, and needs repriming. In comparison the 699 keep wet, even when not used for a bit, as those caps seal well. I keep pretty esoteric ink in a couple of them, so they don't get everyday exercise, while the Amber one has Yama Budo, so it writes daily. Just remember to open the false cap to let the ink flow. I keep that open on the desk pen, and only seal them on the ones in my pockets. You can get WS 3013 for as low as a few dollars if you are willing to wait on the slow shipping. Used a couple of those to mess with modifying nibs into stubs, and oblique stubs, as they were cheap enough to learn on. The WS 698 is a better version of a Chinese impression of a TWISBY like pen, just like WS 699 is for the 823, but the WS with three digits model numbers cost more than the four digit models, which are made elsewhere, but while the three digits models cost more they are better pens, and the four digit models are cheaper, but for a good reason, as quality lacks in comparison. I would get Jinhao pens instead of those. To me quality of the bigger names in Chinese pens goes something like this: PenBBS > Moonman > WS three digit models > Jinhao > Kaigelu > Hero > WS four digit models > Duke. If one of the four at the top made a turned acrylic version of the Custom 823, then it would be about perfect.
@@martinlebl631 well my first and only PenBBS cracked at the section after one month ... never going to buy another one. On the other hand my Moonman M800 with Bock nib Leonardo Momento Zero copy) is absolutely perfect! Wing Sung and Jinhao are somewhere in the middle with Wing Sung being a little better: my two 699 are just excellent, they write every time, their nibs are smooth and decent, in general I have no issues at all with them. (All my five 3013s after 2 years have corroded shafts, broken o rings and clips and various other fails, I don't use them anymore 😢)
Excellent detailed review. I love that you do a full disassembly and part by part analysis. I have a 699, which I like, but the next pen acquisition for me is the Pilot 823. (BTW, it’s author Neil Gaiman’s fountain pen of choice). One question, are both of the feeds plastic? I think maybe the Pilot uses ebonite?
Both feeds are plastic. The Pilot has a different design that seems to help with ink flow. On my Pilot 912 with FA I did have to swap it out with an aftermarket feed so it had sufficient ink flow to keep up with the flex
Even with all the cost cutting. It doesn't really explain the price difference. Reality is they could have easily refined the pen more and wouldn't cost maybe a few bucks more. The real cost savings is it's made in China where labor costs is in the pennies per pen. You cannot compete with that when you pay skilled craftsman in Japan to build it with that level of detail. Which personaly happy to do so. As much as I appreciate the value proposition of the Chinese copy. I want my money to go to a company that pays their workers a half decent wage.
Well done ... thank you. For $35, not a bad pen. But it's good to know what the differences are between the 2 models. I do love my 823, but I can see getting the Wing Sung to use for my shop.
I can't afford an 823 right now, and until I can, I ordered a WS699 to have as an EDC. But doing my due diligence and researching my purchase, I started thinking about possible repairs and replacements. I get WS699 probably has absolutely no aftersales service, and to be honest for the price it is to be expected. But considering that I might order an 823 in the next 3-5 years I tried finding information on Pilot warranty and possible spare part market. The information I found is that the 823 comes with 1 year warranty that doesnt repair, but offer a comparable product. And besides few small scale enterprises that are rumored to "hook me up" with a spare part if I need one and can wait a while, I found no mention of spare parts. That is outrageous for a product of that cost. One can buy a big house appliance where I live and still expect to find parts to repair it if it malfunctions. Has anyone here found something different on that regard? I don't want to invest in a grail pen whose manufacturer will leave me hanging after 1 year of warranty.
Late to the party, I know. But, there is a big difference between the XF & F Wing Sung nibs in many of the 600 numbered models. The M is much softer and the XF & F are like nails. Just something to consider when buying. I love my 699 and will eventually buy the real thing. That is something that i would have never considered without owning the knockoff so they're not always a bad thing.
How weird that your 823 comes with an F nib that writes more like a (Japanese) M. In my experience, Pilot is pretty consistent in nib width, even across the different models. I have two Wing Sung 699 pens (EF) and a Pilot 823 (F). One of the Wing Sungs came with a dud nib and I replaced it with a JoWo #6 EF nib. The F nib in my 823 is plenty juicy and, as is to be expected, writes more like a Western EF. It isn't all that smooth (again, to be expected for a nib this fine) but plenty juicy. In that regard, I'm afraid to admit that the Wing Sung with the JoWo nib provides a more enjoyable writing experience. Given the fact that the MSRP of the 823 is 350€ on my side of the globe (or almost 500 funny Canadian Tire dollars), it's a bit disconcerting that a 50€ pen (price of the JoWo nib included) is lovelier to write with. The fact that the plunger rod may or may not have a burr really means bupkis to me. Or as we say in Dutch: "it can gather rust on my arse".
I have adjusted my nib on my 823. Never been happy with it since day one. I thought making it a bit wider tip would help, but still not there. The fine on my vintage Pilot Elite is exquisite! I still like the pen and the build quality is amazing, perhaps I got a bum nib. Still thinking about what I should do with it. The WS 699 is pretty damn impressive for the price. But the one issue I have with mine at least, is it dries up surprisingly quick. Not sure what other's experience has been, but my 823 has never hard started even after several months without being used.
@@Doodlebud I've heard that Pilot offers excellent customer support in North-America, so maybe they can help? I'm sure it wouldn't hurt if you casually mention that you have a popular RUclips channel. 😁
Oh I've thoroughly voided any warranty this pen would have had long time ago LOL. And there's video proof of me voiding the warranty. I'll get it sorted out. I'm still debating how I want this pen to perform and how I want to use it. Once I figure that out it will guide me as to what I want to do with the nib
I am having a particular problem with my Vac699 Wingsung. After finishing writing i screw back the vac knob like in all Vac mechanism pens one is supposed to however as soon as i screwon the cap some ink leaks from the nib and feed into the cap this is not only causing things to get messy but also wasting some ink every time I write with it Can u please suggest a way out I keep the nib side up while doing all of this it's a beautiful writing instrument and I wish to keep on using it will making a tiny hole in the cap help by preventing the vacum to suck out ink while recapping it? Please help
I've recently got my WS 699 and loved it once I unpacked it. However, while there are certainly good times when it writes wet and smooth there are times when it gets dry and starts skipping. Of course, I know about unwinding the knob to let the ink flow, however I also noticed that sometimes there are air bubbles in the ink that seem to obstruct the ink flow. I'm not sure whether it's the problem of the ink (it's karkos black) or of the pen, but that's what my experience with it is
Just got a Wing Sung 699, it’s a terrible pen. Decide to return within 10mins. The Asvine V126 is a far better quality, fit and finish pen. Wing Sung 699 Issues: - Notchy/unsmooth plastic threads on the filler collar and the end cap. - The tines on my nib is split uneven, also it’s so scratchy on paper even before inking it up. It’s not ‘feedback’, it’s straight up a defective nib. - The valve seal is smaller diameter than the internal diameter of the nib section, so it doesn’t actually plug up the hole at all. The plunger seal barely touches the section, it might just about seal it but that’s not what the plunger seal is for. - The nib section threads are also ~1mm too short, the oring does not form a seal to the barrel. This could be fixed by removing the silver trim between the section and barrel so the section screws further in (and it can). This explains the leaks I’ve read about. I’d go as far as saying the Wing Sung 699 is defective by design.
I love this video (in fact, it convinced me to buy an 823, which is now my number 1). Would love to see a follow up comparison with the newly released Asvine V126.
I actually like the little more transparent plastic. For the money the WS 699 is a great pen. In the North American market the Custom 823 is outrageously priced, and nib selection is weak. In Japan the Custom 823 is priced a lot cheaper, and is offered with larger range of Pilot's nibs.
Same here in China, steep but fair price for an outstanding product (with warrant). My wife got me one for $190, without warranty, of course (and yes, I could pick any nib I want to). With Wing Sung 699 is like with Pilot Metropolitan - almost everyone says it's a great pen, but with notion "for that price".
Great Video. I bought a Wing Sung 699, and I never even noticed all of the things that you pointed out. However, my biggest issue was the top finial snapped off, but it was always in a hard leather pen sleave.
Such a great video. I somehow missed this from a year ago, but just came across it while making my own video of the 699. I will link this video in my description since there are some amazing details here that I don't even come close to covering.
Question is - is it really about having a nicely molded inside of a bottom cap that noone is ever going to see? I like when things are manifactured properly and with attention to detail, I just do not think people in general should be bashing "cheap" knock-offs that work almost just as well but cut a few negligible corners. If I haad unlimited money, sure, get me some Pilot 823. Sadly I don't.
I lost the gold ring on my pilot custom 823 when cleaning it dissemble (despite what this review said), so I had to buy a wing sung 699 to replace the gold ring because pilot in my country would not sell the ring or repair it
Great video! Thank you for sharing the disassembled and comparison of these two pens. I have theWS 699 and it burps all over place 😡😤. I will definitely get the Pilot 723 or 823.
Hmm that's interesting it burps. Where does it burp from?
@@Doodlebud it is burping from the nib. I’ll write a sentence or two, then a blob of ink leak the side of the feed. 😣.
Hmm, if you're comfortable doing so, try pulling out the nib & feed. Look for and debris or something impeding flow to the nib. Try readjusting the nib position on the feed to see if it improves.
@@Doodlebud thank you. I will try that and keep you posted. I appreciate your help! 🥰
@@Doodlebud Happy Sunday!!! I would to thank you for your advice. I pulled and cleaned the nib and feed. I filled it and it is writing really good with no burping this far. I appreciate your help! Have a great day and a fantastic week!
In the wrist watch community, it would be called an homage. In that community, it can almost cause an online fistfight. I don't have an issue with it, though. As long as you go into it with your eyes open as to what you are getting and what to expect; you can get a good buy sometimes. It's great that you point these differences out. Helps people make informed decisions.
Yup, it's crappy to get your design work ripped off. But it just happens. Like you said, as long as you know you're not getting something just as good as a Rolex for $50, it's all good. But if you really think your $50 knock of Romex really is just as good... Please share with me whatever it is you're smoking cuz it's GOT to be good.
I have an issue with it though, its outright copying of someone else's work - while that may not matter to you as a consumer, it sure as heck matters to the team that spent countless hours doing the R&D on their product. Yes, lots of watch brands do this and I would never give them a dollar.
@@AlTheEngineeryeah but patents only last so long. I get that in spirit it’s still disingenuous design but after a certain amount of time the only thing that remains Pilots property are the trademarks.
@@LucasKellis sure thing, I wasn't referencing just Pilot. But in general, as an engineer and patent holder myself on multiple inventions and systems, I would absolutely hate it if someone just took my designs, copied them and changed something so tiny and called it their own or "homage"... Its not about the "legalities" for me, its about honorable engineering and the act of piggybacking off of someone else's success without crediting them.
Again, I am by no means saying that copyrights and patents must be held for a 1000 years, no, not at all. But what we see in the wrist watch industry, for example, is blatant "copying" under the disguise of "homage" ... some of designs that get copied aren't even that old or dated - but they find ways around the law anyway!
@@Doodlebud I just read this comment, haha cracked me up. Look up Ginault Watches ... they "literally" ripped off Rolex part by part. In fact, their founder was a Rolex clone maker for years, then he just changed the text on the dial and called his watch brand "a homage" ... they aren't cheap at all, they are $1000+, and if I gave you one in hand next to a real Submariner for example, you would NOT be able to tell the difference between them ... (except for the text on the dial).
Yet, the guy just changes the dial and hands design and calls it "homage" ... I find that to be absolutely nuts! In fact, in some watch forums, some people would buy the GInault, and buy a used Rolex dial and hands on eBay, do a quick swap, and BAM ... "super fake Rolex"...
The fact that they're in business as a "homage" brand boggles my mind. Yes, you have people who are completely OK with this.
This is an incredibly useful breakdown - thanks!
If I couldn’t afford a Pilot 823 I’d get a TWSBI Vac700, not a Chinese ripoff. I’d rather give my money to Taiwan.
I completely agree with you….
By Chinese products= ruined your own country….
Lol, give it to the other ethnically Chinese group.
@@PleasekillmysonsdadI mean yeah but the culture is different, they aren't out to scam you as much as the mainlanders
I love my Twsbi vac mini. I just wish they would come out with more colors. All they have right now is clear and smoke (as accents, rhetoric body is mostly clear). Same for regular mini. Very limited.
@@ungabungus01 alot of Chinese vac fillers are much better. Get a penbbs 456. Best vac filler I've used.
Edit:best sub 100 I mean
imo unfortunately nothing replaces truly GOLD nib (in writing)... in the end of a day I could have a stick, but with gold nib, and I'd be happy
this Pilot's nib looks and writes great imo (I mean what I saw in this review), especially for colorful inks lover :)
A quality gold nib is wonderful, especially a lovely vintage one!
Love my 823. I have many FPs, some of them approaching $1k, but if I can only save one from a boating accident, it’s gonna be 823
It's that good, is it? I'm close to pulling the trigger on one and I'm just about convinced the 823 is going to be my affordable grail pen that can also serve as an everyday workhorse. Of course, $288 US is no small amount of money and I worry that, despite remembering enjoying trying one a while ago and all the many many great things I've heard said and read written about the 823, it'll not quite be what I've convinced myself it's going to be...
@@DanielSmith_19 My personal opinion, absolutely yes, it is that good. I have expensive fountain pens such as Visconti HS and Pelikan M800, yet none of them hold a candle to the 823 when you put the nib to paper. Many fountain pen enthusiast put 823 in such high regard for a good reason. It's a workhorse of a pen that begs to be used everyday, not a piece of pocket jewelry. If you want something to write with, to enjoy writing, 823 is the one to get.
@DanielSmith_19 its worth it!
I have my dads legendary parker 51 all gold fountain. Beautiful functional, but priceless. I found same pen in silver on ali express for 99 cents. The parker is fantastic, but the Chinese knock off is not bad. If I have to go out of the house to write, I take the knock off. I love that CHINESE PEN, because if I lose it or something happens to it while I am out of the house, so what? I ordered 10 and gave to my loved ones.
Yup, the low cost pens can be great. Either as a daily carry version an expensive pen you don't want to get damaged/loss, or just as a great pen all on their own.
I know it’s popular but you still couldn’t convince me it’s worth more than 10 times the price, even with the gold nib. I’ve enjoyed my Wing Sungs and I’ve enjoyed my Pilots. In the end, it’s always about the performance. Depending on what I’m doing with the pen decides which pen I use.
Hard to justify the 823's price for injection molded pen. Just like MB and their injection molded precious resin.
There is a point when you simply own too much sub-$50 or sub -$150 pens, that the run of the mill perfectly functional and excellent performing Chinese pens or American/European Jowo pens just don’t excite you any more. If someone has $350 to spare, why have 10 more good pens if you can have 1 exceptional pen, given that you already have 30-50 good pens already. I think both pens have their places in the market.
@@uihcmoht If you have the money to spare, or if you want to access one of the more interesting Pilot nibs, then it is a fine, if pricey option. Of course the nibs that might justify this aren't offered in the US, so you must order directly from Japan. This is worth it, because the 823 is priced much more affordably in it's native market, so the only inconvenience is the shipping, and perhaps customs, depending on where you are customs can be annoying, but for US it is under the threshold where you need to pay any unless you order a bunch of the pens. On the plus side you can get the nibs that make it worthwhile, and you save some money as well. I would love the FA nib in the 823 body, where it would have an ample ink supply, unlike just being convertor fed, although I don't think this is offered as factory, but could be probably ordered from the smaller and more customer oriented pen shops.
@@martinlebl631 I think this goes both ways. I heard Italian pens are also very expensive in Japan and Europeans have to pay a hefty VAT, so I would consider US collectors to be lucky to have so many approachable options, not to mention the availability of all the vintage American pens and parts from yesteryears, and the abundant resources, skilled restorers and estate sale. I am sure those are way less accessible outside of us given the shipping costs.
@@uihcmoht Europe probably has similar amount of vintage floating about, although it might not be quite as popular, as fountain pens never died out to the same extent, and many brands survived, or even thrived, which wasn't the case in US, although many were now restored as zombies to feed upon their former fame, often without doing much more than slapping the brand name on a pen made elsewhere, often in China, with various level of success and quality. Might as well buy a Chinese pen then, for much cheaper, and with similar, or often better quality. Really a shame these people are often in it for a quick buck, and are just pillaging the reputation of old familiar brands, cycling through them once the gig is up. Italian pens are great looking, and often actually intricately crafted, and not injection molded, which is nice, but most don't make their own nibs, and often QC is lacking, which is hard to forgive given the high price. In US you have sales tax, which at the consumer step is like VAT, but less complicated throughout the supply chain, still adds 8 to 10 percent to the prices discussed, as everyone talks prices before tax for some reason, which hardly makes sense. Importing is easier as customs only gets involved with things in high hundreds USD, which makes things easier, whereas elsewhere even twenty USD worth of pens will have a protectionist customs barriers applied to collect a few USD worth of import duty, and often more than items worth in fees, but this isn't done to collect revenue, but to discourage outside trade. In US the level is high enough, so it makes economic sense for the state, as below the cost of collecting would exceed the revenue, and so it isn't done. If it was lowered the rest if the world woukd scream bloody murder, even though they do the same thing, but it could likely lead to employment of many a bureaucrat. As many new pen brands are now skipping importers and distributors, and shipping either direct to consumer, or at least direct to retailer, their prices tend to be more even worldwide as no middle men need to be fed. However, I am not sure the fountain pen demand in Europe and Japan for US fountain pens is of the same volume as the other way around. Shipping from China to US is much cheaper than US to China, but Germany or UK to US is similar either way, and same with Japan, as there us no substantial advantage one way or another.
Hi, Doodlebud! I got two of Wing Sungs tea colored (EF) and transparent with silver trims (F) . On Taobao there are also available 699s with 14k gold nibs (only F) for around 400 RMB and for 150 RMB with fancy nibs for calligraphy (长刀， 刀锋).
I got them 11 months ago but used maybe for 6. Here are some my observations.
Both pens' caps and barrels started to become milky (cloudy) in the place where they meet each other (under the ring on the cap, above the thread on the barrel and at the end of the barrel due to posting - and I hardly ever post my pens!). The tea one started to have problems with the stable flow (didn't have in the beginning). One of my students (9 y.o. girl) during unscrewing the cap ripped off the clip and finial, revealing a very short screw. I bough a replacement, a wrench and few nibs (EF nib was unbearably scratchy and when it became smooth enough for my taste it also became FM). The cap, despite ordering exactly the same color, came with different shade of brown... I guess the pens come in batches, they add dye by hand.
Now, the transparent one - when I try unscrew the the finial it stayed in my hand. I figured out how to screw it back amd after a month I got a wrench to screw it tightly. Unfortunately 6 months later it unscrewed again.
The rod after extending is smeared with ink but the vacuum system works properly (I guess the outer o-ring stops on that notch on the rod). During washing I've noticed that there is quite a lot of ink between two o-rings - I'm afraid it may contaminate the ink if I change the color. I didn't notice that problem in the TWSBI iris or even the in the other 699.
Last week I've noticed a small clump inside the barrel, yesterday I've unscrewed that part which I was supposed not to unscrew (it is not fit very tightly - my fingers and paper tissue did the trick). In the beginning I thought that this part is made of plastic but it's made of brass coated with black paint (I think). That clump was a strip of coating, and yes the screw stared to corrode... I didn't get to the tea pen inside yet (it's fool of ink) but I'm afraid that it may be happening in there too.
I have to mention that when I got both pens big drops of silicone grease were visible in the barrels - again saving time and costs.
Last week my wife gave me Pilot 823 as gift for Chinese New Year - it is still in the box waiting for the right ink. Now, I have a question - about scratches (that cloudiness) on the cap or barrel?
Yikes! What a disaster. I take back my stupid commentary on how good the Wing Sung is.
@@ichirofakename Nice joke! I've noticed few more things since then BTW. I clean the pens and prepare to decommission (put them in the drawer and forget about them).
Wow, hope you typed that on the computer & not your phone! Thanks for sharing your experience 👍
Well ! The reverse-engineering efforts by these companies in making 'affordable replicas' and still earning profits are commendable..
Maybe it's time for the premium pen makers to do some 'reverse-reverse engineering', learn how the copycat pen makers are reducing the costs and possibly make their own premium pens more accessible 😀
Well the things I showed outline the difference between low cost & premium pens. Every step adds cost, R&D, premium materials, polishing, QC, etc. That's why they have other pens at lower price points.
@@Doodlebud Looking for the day when you compare Kawecos with their affordable Clones from Delike which I've fallen in love with !
@@Doodlebud I doubt it costs that much.
Yes, they can open a factory in China, actually they did - 78G is made there (here for me) for sure, Metropolitan, 95S and Custom 74 probably too (I cannot confirm it).
Do you you really want Pilot to engage in a race who will make a worse quality product (cutting corners)?
@@Al357Magnum You also need to pay a premium for the brand name...
However, one big factor in saving costs is your workforce... what Pilot is paying for their employees also drives the prices. Not just manufacturing costs.
Thank you for the video 😘 I've both, loving them both...Just one question : i find the M NIB from my 823 a little little bit too large...Is there any way to slim it ?? Best regards from Colmar, FR 😊👍/ JF
To make it more narrow requires grinding the nib, and that type of grind operation is not a simple DIY. You would need to send it off to someone who knows how to do it, or potentially a nib swap. Sometimes they write a bit wider if its extra wet. You can reduce the flow a bit on a nib to its a bit too wet, but again you need to know what you're doing. I have some videos on those topics to give a look. But I wouldn't recommend doing it on an expensive pen for a first attempt! You can mess it up bad if you don't know what you're doing.
Definitely for different demographic
Could you do an episode on the differences in plastics? I've seen some arguments about whether "plastic is plastic" or whether there are for example, varying grades of PMMA.
No hate against cheaper pens - but fans of cheaper pens seem to be using the idea that "all PMMA is the same" to denigrate higher end pens.
I think you might have something interesting to say about that...
Yeah I was just thinking about that very topic. "Plastic" seems to encompass all the pens that are "plasticy" . But plastic is not just plastic. There is so much engineering that goes into the chemistry to yield different desired properties. There are so many different types it's crazy. Can "look" sorta the same, but are very different. Not a field I've spent a bunch of time in, but maybe I can do some research & put together some info.
Absolutely think you should do one on this topic!
The "precious resin" on the montblanc... would be interesting to show how common of a plastic it is!
@@benwalsh9257 should be noted, the use of the term "precious resin" that montblanc gets heavily criticized for is more of a quirk of translation than anything.
In the original German, it is called "edelharz" is the standard term for high grade resin. "Edel" when directly and strictly translated means "noble" or "precious". But in material terms, it is used more to describe a material that is inert / resistant to change. Like stainless steel or the noble gasses. Thus, a quirk of translation shifted the meaning quite significantly.
Montblanc takes a ton of flak for this when it's not really warranted.
Pilot 823 is worth buying!
So true. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 Though I did some more research, searching and asking if there was anyone selling a secondhand Pilot 823 in my country. Luckily I was able to buy one for around $196.
Love the Wing Sung 699. I have a brown and a blue, both with medium nib. Super smooth writers, elegant look and feel, and because of the price I am comfortable using them every day and carrying them around. I have several "good" Pilot pens too, but these 699s get used more.
Very good for daily carry. I know some would be very nervous about taking their 823 around with them for fear of dropping. This is perfect for being a daily user, that works great, and if it does break not a big hit to the wallet!
"Then you just plate it to hide all the nasty work you just did" I love it Bud, this is going to be a classic. Thanks for another great video.
Here's a tip: don't buy cheap underwear either. Sure it provides a layer of protection. But when you have a name like mine, by the end of the day you'll be sitting on the couch with a bag of ice from the extreme chafing 🔥
You always have words of wisdom Harry
Outstanding deep dive into the process analysis. I'm old, on a fixed income, with no investments, so the 823 will probably not ever been in my price range. If I get either of these pens, it will likely be the 699. But if I find myself dissatisfied with it, at least I'll know why!
Glad you enjoyed the vid. 699 is a pretty good pen. My 823 is great, feels better in the hand & writing is better. But to be honest I just don't use it as much as I thought I would. I find it too wet (at least mine anyways) for the nib size. Everyone is different & we all have different preferences & expections, but I'll probably end up using the 699 more as I like the thinner line & ink flow. I did have to open it up a touch as I was a bit too dry, but that took all of 20 seconds. So yeah, it's a decent pen 😁
I am so thankful for my Wing Sung 699, which I purchased for $19.99. Pilot Custom 823 $360 (current price).
We are talking about $340 cost difference. I am not expecting to find all of the special manufacturing
found in the 823, to be found in a $19.99 pen. My med. nib did require some nib smoothing on arrival,
however, I have had no leaking or burping in my 699. If I was willing to pay the $340 price difference, it
better be a "better-made pen." You can purchase a 699 with a gold nib for $79-$89. I find it interesting
when FP connoisseurs speak despairingly about the
699, as if they are actually trying to compare the
two pens. I always think could they really believe they can go to a pen store and buy a Pilot Custom
823-type pen for $19.99-$24.99, with gold nibs and nicer manufacturing techniques. Oh well, I guess
we can all dream. Even for the budding FP Elite, the 823 is at the lower end of grail pens. The Lanbitou
3088 is the clone for the TWSBI Eco. Enjoyed how the video shows why there is such a cost difference.
I've been pleasantly surprised with the 699. Better than expected. My nib does dry up if left for a few days I find. That's about the only annoyance. My 823 though, if it's left unused for months, I unscrew the cap & it writes immediately. Never had a single skip or hard start.
Wing Sung 699 is an absolutely decent pen for it'd price. I got mine for $20 when it was first launched in 2019.
I have two of them, a brown and a clear, with fine and medium nibs, the medium being smoother and better overall, the fine is little toothy. Never had any issues with them and what most amazed me is that they write every time, regardless of how long I have them unused.
I think this model is a very good way of testing if you would like a 823 before you pull the trigger on it.
Regarding the price, let's be honest, the reason you buy 823 is the #15 nib, the filling system is just a bonus.
In europe 🇪🇺 all #15 nib Pilot pens cost €360, regardless of filling system. For example a 743 costs the same as 823.
But they have ws 629 now, a more successful product
Yes, great video. Thank you very much. RS
Terrific analysis and comparison! From an engineer working in manufacturing, I appreciate your explanations as to the fit and finish and suspected manufacture process. Your videos are consistently informative and entertaining. Please keep up the great work!
Glad you enjoyed it 👍. I do this with pretty everything I get LOL
Well, I just did something really fucking stupid. I was writing on the couch and got up to get myself a drink from the kitchen. When I approached the couch, cup in hand, I tripped and suffice it to say, disaster ensued. My tea went all over my Endless Recorder notebook (which was closed, luckily, so the faux leather cover took the brunt. It's got a bit of water damage on the top two corners, but nothing to write home about). The worse part was that I planted my knee in the middle of the seat cushion... right where the pen was. Now, I'm not a heffer but I'm 5'9" so I'm not exactly a pixie either. I heard and felt a definite crack. Ink all over the sofa cushion, of course. I picked up the pen and I could immediately tell the pen was seriously bent, the capped section really askew in relation to the barrel. I'm talking a good 10° angle. The cap wouldn't unscrew, so I applied gentle pressure to bend the section back a little till I could remove the cap. I then tried to straighten the section a little more, and the pen broke into two pieces in my hands... or so I thought. I was sure that the section had broken off, but then I realized it had simply come apart, as if I'd unscrewed it. I checked the section and barrel for cracks with a loop... nada. Zilch. The threads seemed fine too, so I screwed the section back into place, et voilà, we're back in business. The only damage is a tiny hairline crack in the cap. Boo fucking hoo. Now if that isn't the best ad for the Wing Sung 699, I don't know what is. 😋
LOL Its also a good add for a metal pen ;) The pen will break your knee not the other way around LOL
I got the 699 in black, and i was surprised how much i loved it. Writes beautifully, looks good(not quite as refined as the 823). But i only paid $20 USD($25 Cad) and at that price its a steal. I don't think i could ever justify the $300+ price of the 823. And while i'm not a huge fan of copying other pens, you have to ask your self.. if you get 95% of the writing experience for just 10% of the price, which pen is really the "rip off"??
Great review. I'm learning a lot. Thanks for making this video.
Pilot 823 is around 10 times more expensive than Wing Sung 699. Is it 10 times better than Wing Sung? But Pilot could actually prove more durable over time due to better fabrication. And here Pilot could score some points off the Wing Sung. Very good presentation, as usual! 👍
I also totally forgot to mention the massive difference in labour costs. Wages in Japan VS China are very different
Excellent Review as usual... Extremely well done and very interesting! Thank You!
Original vs fake. Japanese Quality vs Chinese Garbage - that's the difference. Talk after an year of use, the Pilot would continue to be in the same state, but I cannot say the same about the Wing Sung shit
I love mine! Just like you said, lots of ink, great “design”, quality pen for the price point. I loved mine in amber with a fine that I went and bought another in smoke with medium. Beautiful pen, decent writer… I don’t have an 823 but I am happy with these 699s.
It's a good pen. Happy with it, enjoy using it, & it performs well. Was curious to see how different it was form the Pilot. Was a fun video to do
Interesting that the breather hole on the Wing Sung is to one side of the tine cut out line
You could get a Sung 699 or something suitably cheap and crappy like that, and treat it like a kit. Then remake parts of it and improve the finish, learn to grind nibs, fix pens or learn to make your own.
Seems like you're comparing Snap-On to Princess Auto (Harbor Freight for those in the states). All are just tools but if longevity is needed, Aa person will go with what is needed. Another excellent video.
I've gotten many sweet deals at harbour freight! Love the store when I visit the US. For the one off random use tools I absolutely buy from them. But for some stuff when you need high grade gear, have shell out the extra coin.
1. Thanks for all that info.
2. Even after deducting the premium for the gold nib, there remains $200 or so difference in the prices, reflecting differences in the bodies. The only difference worth as much as $10 to me is the good posting vs. bad posting. The rest of the differences I leave to you engineers to price out, deciding if for you they are worth $190. It seems I am in the target audience for Wing Sung products, as I don't needlessly take apart my pens LOOKING FOR BURRS. (You cray-cray, man!) If I wanted a vac filler, which I almost do, I would probably go for this nice Wing Sung.
3. Sorry for the teasing above. We are different people and so seek different $300+ pens. Mine will have to be a Sailor in purty colors.
Agree. For $300+ I will want something more than an injection molded pen. The 699s I have, four in four different colors have all worked well and problem free for over two years, so to me they were well worth the price. Still haven't disassembled them down to pieces either.
Don't worry about the teasing buddy, you bust my balls with most every comment & I don't mine busting yours 🤣. I'm just curious as hell & have to take things apart & figure them out. One MASSIVE thing I failed to mention are the capital costs differences. Especially the human capital. Wages just happen to be also be 1/10th the cost in China VS Japan. 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
@@Doodlebud Capital cost are tricky to measure, as for models years or decades in production they are long amortized, and cost of making molds for injection molding are surely cheaper in China, but if Peneider in Italy can make one for $30K, then it isn't that big of a deal. Labor costs are surely way lower in China, but factories in west are often very automated, which is how Lamy can pump out all those Safaris that in Germany sell for under twenty bucks, and that is from a retailer. Of course adding importer and distributor for US causes us to pay more as this middleman has to be fed. And many Japanese pen brands have moved the manufacture of their lower end models to China, but kept the same price, so that a model made in the same factory, but with Japanese brand cost four to ten times than a pen made in the same factory with Chinese brand name. You are paying the whole markup for the brand name, while getting the same pen manufacturing quality, and use of same labor force. Let's not even mention the outrageous deal that is the Monteverde Monza, which is just a very cheap pen with a fancy new label, and is a trap for the uninitiated.
@@Doodlebud
1. I can take things apart but I don't because it is so much harder to put them back together again.
2. Now that you mention it, of course the labor costs are different, and possibly on a par with the ten-times price difference. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the price of each pen covers labor costs.
3. You are a good sport.
DB, nice review. I have several 699's and enjoy them both. The sections on mine are not transparent but match the color of the end cap of the barrel.
Also I learned from another you tube fountain pen channel how to remove the entire piston assembly for occasional thorough cleaning. Use of a rubber grip on the gold colored metal trim ring can be unscrewed allowing removal of the piston assembly.
I like pilot pens and have several with gold nibs but the 823 for what it is seems a little high on price. I wouldn't knock the quality and longevity of the 823 but it's mostly plastic and not even precious resin or acrylic.
Keep up the great work on your videos!!
I knew if I got a good gripper on the part I could remove it, but my confidence in the integrity of the plastic is fairly low. The term "plastic" does seem to blanket all the different types into one. Maybe I should look into getting some info together and do a video on the differences. It can be quite significant.
I gotta be honest, I can actually understand why the Pilot costs more having seen all of these details. I tend to be skeptical of luxury items. I will say, I don't know if it's worth $350 still haha. But I'd be willing to pay a fair amount more for the quality of Pilot.
You can commonly find used ones in great condition for a very good price if you look around. This is a good place I've bought several pens from:
www.reddit.com/r/Pen_Swap/
@@Doodlebud Ah thanks man! I just happened to pop over to Ebay after seeing this and these are going new for $210 😳 and the 912 with soft medium are $140. I'm definitely checking pen swap. Thanks again!
Does having the O-ring at the bottom of the threads not allow ink into the threads?
You can polish that tiny burr off the end by rubbing it on paper.
Excellent video. I bought this pen years ago, and the price was $20 when it was launched... so as a blue pens lover, I also bought the blue version. They both are real good pens for the price. Now I have the brown one inked up and have swapped the original F to a Jinhao M nib. It really writes like a dream. These Jinhao people have achieved great performance nibs, and they are not hit or miss, like they used to be.
If you had to choose between a pilot prera and wing sung 699 which would you choose? Considering they are in the same price range, which do you consider the better writing experience?
I havent used a prera yet so I really cant give any useful commentary. Writing experience can be a tricky one as its not difficult to get a nib a touch out of alignment and completely change how a pen writes. All depends what you want in a pen. 601 is a vac filler vs converter on the prera. I "think" the prera uses the same nib and feed as from the Kakuno which I have tried and that was very good. So bit of a toss up depending upon what you want. Dont know if that help in any way LOL
Interesting analysis, DB. It reminded me of one Christmas in the 1970’s when my mom got a pie server from someone. My dad looked at it and said, “Hell of a burr on it.” To this day I think of that every time I see a burr on a product.
Thank you for the comparison! Every time I put the WingSung in my cart I take it out! Maybe it’s because I am deep down hoping to one day get a Pilot 823. Though the filling system holds a lot of ink I get bored quickly so I prefer a converter or just half fill the pen (like in my Ecos). And hard to clean!! I am now looking at the Pilot 743 which has the same nib as the 823 but converter fill. They also have many more nib options. Just hard to get here in Canada or the U.S. Perhaps my next Chinese pen purchase will finally be the 699!😃 …and then maybe the 823/743. 🤞🏽Thanks again for the review!
I'm pretty happy with the 699. Works well & good to use. If you one day get 823 that's good, but don't have to have any FOMO. If you're not in love with your 699, maybe don't spend the extra in the 823? Just a thought 🤔 Cheaper way to find out I guess
Hey, Doodlebud! I really enjoy your disassembly/dismemberment reviews with all the mechanical engineering expertise that you bring. Thanks!
I actually studied Computer Hardware Engineering, but always ended up doing stuff that used all disciplines. Mechanical, electrical, computer, optics, etc. Was fortunate to have a wide exposure
I think we can all agree that Pilot should just sell replacement barrels on the regular.
Extremely interesting and informative. Thank
you!
Very glad to see you radio.
My friend Mr zhang produce this wingsung pen.
May I have your contact information to talk about your suggestions about his new products?
Thanks a lot!
You can reach me at thedoodlebud@gmail.com
@@Doodlebud Thank you a lot.
Spectacular comparison! This is how it should be done. I had a Pilot 823, and I regret a lot that I had to sale it... 😢
Can you please breakdown penbbs 500 ?
If I get my hands on one I will
I love the Wing Sung 699 but one of mine had a major issue. It cracked near the back threads and leaks ink. Never dropped, never over tightened and its now not usable. I want a Pilot 823 and will get one eventually. I did win a Pilot 743 US exclusive last year at my local pen show. I love it just wish it was a F nib instead of M and it holds a lot of ink but love love love the vacuum fuller of the 823.
F that. Love DB. Love your vids. Huge fan. Best vids on this hobby! But how much for a plastic pen? WTF? I fell into fountain pens. Hard. Started in March, and now 100 plus in... Many pens in. And found some of the Best are sub $40. Yes splurged on circa 1980 Lamy 2000 (special) 😊, Elite, Narwhal (Liquid Hot Magma #100/100)... But getting beyond that? Grail, Visconti HS BA, Pilot Muy. Have sub , $5 pens... My LBG (my Little Brass Guy). No info. No markings. But is amazing. Writes fantastically. Again, love your work and attention to details. Thank you.
Also, want to borrow the Narwhal Liquid Hot Magma to review? Reach out. Will send it. Also, my LBG, maybe you can find more info.
Great video! Your engineering perspective shared in videos is so unique in content. Please keep them coming!
I thought the o-ring provides a better seal around the inner diameter of the barrel if it’s before the threads, so the ink doesn’t seep into the threads? PenBBS did a reversal from “o-ring after thread” to “o-ring before threads” to solve that particular issue. As for CC pens, Sailor also has the O-ring after the barrel to section threads, but I am not sure what that does mechanically other than making the threading action feels more premium.
Great question! If the object of the O-ring is to stop ink from getting into the threads then that is the way you have to do it. But if you want to use an O-ring for stealing you don't usually want to be putting the O-ring for the threads to go over top. Think of where the O-rings are placed when you do an oil change on your oil filter or the drain plug. You want to compress the O-ring, not have threads go over top. This may be a red herring in the context of pens as it's not a harsh environment or have pressures that we dealing with. It will most likely work well but if your design is able to accommodate it, I would recommend doing it how pilot did
@@Doodlebud the more I get into fountain pens the more I am interested in machining and mechanics and to some extent watchmaking and jewelry making. I know so little about them, but I have great appreciation when they are thought of and executed well. These details are the most difficult but not impossible for budget products to do.
Yup, there are things that do cost more to do, so to stay within budget they have to be skipped. But other things can be virtually the same cost but are either missed or neglected
@@Doodlebud and that’s usually where the DIYer inside me steps in. I love to add the finishing touches to my Moonman and Wingsungs. Polishing out the injection marks, Swapping, grinding or tuning the nib, shimming or adding O-rings, Feed or Housing retrofits etc etc. Refining Chinese pens make me feel more capable than I really am. LOL
It's not a half bad idea to do that. Maybe I'll do that for a video topic 🤔🤔😊
thanks for the comparisons I own the Wing Sung 698 piston filler with a gold nib that I paid $50 for and love it. Love the concept of vac fillers with shut off valve for travel and though I own 2 opus 88, I would consider the 699 with their finest nib. You cannot beat the price
Excellent!
Interesting breakdown, thanks. Confirmed all the reasons I love my 823. :) Twisbi provides a disassembly tool, and I expect the majority of the cracking comes from people taking apart their pens much more than is necessary.
And/or overtightening! These are relatively delicate items, not lug nuts!
If you have more than 100 pens and the only ones that crack (even before you open the box!!!) are TWSBI - I don't think the problem is with the users...
My Eco cracked at the grip opening, and the top of the cap, so within the year the whole pen was replaced. Now rationally I shouldn't be hard on TWSBI, but definitely turned off of TWSBI and future TWSBI purchases.
@@omeryehezkely3096 Yes, TWISBY is infamous for cracking.
I have more than 10 Ecos and use them constantly. No cracking yet 🤞🏽Maybe I’ve gotten lucky!
What do you think these clone pens Doodlebud? If you weren't doing this comparison would you be interested in the clone? Do you think it's right to buy one? I feel it's different when talking about clones vs. homage pens. While the price is significantly lower, there isn't a person in the world who would say that the Sailor 1911L or the Platinum President is a 146 clone.
As always a damn interesting video. The only way to see how the Wing Sun holds up is a pound for pound use. Can this pen last for 5-10 years with everyday use. If it can then I guess the value is good, but still they didn't design the pen, they just copied it!
Well maybe 5-10 yrs from now I can do a follow up vid 🤣. Yeah having your work copied is just a part of life. With cars for example, many "look" the same but are VERY different. With pens the general shapes are very close to each other. So it's only small nuances which make them different. You can tell when pens have a similar design but are still made differently VS ones where it was just copied.
@@Doodlebud Alright then set time for 5 years 😁
Perhaps it will just be easier if I make a desktop time machine. 5yrs for the pen, 1 month for us. Would greatly speed up the process. I'll see if I can come up with a simple DIY with a few things I have kicking around the house!
@@Doodlebud 🙃 See if that cap ring on the Lamy 2000 can be used. That thing is of no use at all.🙃
I have many 823 pens but I’ve never used them. I use under $30 fountain pens for everyday. I’m not writing anything special.
Why? That's objectively odd. Sell them to someone who will use them.
It might just be an impression, but in the video it also looks that the ink in the Wing Sung clings differently to the inside of the barrel and the piston rod. In the Pilot it looks nice and clean, while in the Wing Sung it looks more spotty. Some coating maybe on the inside of the barrel?
Could be a coating or I have more silicon grease in the 823 vs the 699 🤔. Good observation!
The best technical pen review RUclips by a quantum leap. I believe DB was a precision instrument design and construction engineer and it shows with insights into design and material quality. ‘ Please do a comparison between the Replicants , WingSung 699 v. Asvine 126 and the King of the Clones Jinhao
Great break down. I have the 699 and really enjoy it. And it has convinced me that yes, I would be interested in getting the high quality Pilot 823. You get what you pay for--my cap on the 699 will come off if you pull (as I learned accidentally. Thanks for doing what you do.
It's a good $35 experiment to determine if you want to pay $350 for the real deal. And as a bonus, you have a pretty good little $35 pen to use as well.
@@Doodlebud For me it was good enough to keep around, and get a few more colors. Spent the money on a Lamy 2000 with a nice juicy OBB nib, and got it for about $200 as I ordered from Europe. Nice gold nib on that, and without the usual Lamy sweet spot, although of course OBB nib isn't for everyone, but it really shows of shading inks.
@Doodlebud yeah I do enjoy it, and it is a great pen for long writing sessions. I plan on getting a blue one sometime, too.... the 823 is one of my grail pens. So one day....
Hey Doodlebud, I love this channel great info-do you have another RUclips channel
Nope, just this channel
At best the $35 pen has a gold plated nib, and probably gives you a choice of bottled ink with a converter, or cartridges.
(if not a twist, piston, vacuum, or dropper fill pen).
The $350 pen likely has a gold nib, and uses bottled ink only. The expensive pen probably has more costly materials used for the trim pieces.
There may be a difference in the resins used for the section (if not metal), body, and cap. If both have an aluminum barrel and cap there might be a difference in the alloy used.
Final fitting on the expensive pen should be better, but that isn't always the case.
They have a 925 silver cap 601 ,sold around 80USD in China
with hooded 14k nib .
And if you add another $20, You can got a 601a with 18k golden open nib.
Great comparison video. You are so right, I would choose my Pilot 823 over any of the fountain pens I have. I just got the 823 in November 21' and I'm in love. Maybe this next holiday gift I will get the smoke color 823.♥︎
Its a very solid pen. I can leave it inked and unused for months and the second I remove the cap it writes!
I was told once that you obtain quality with a product as soon as the client is satisfied with it. You are overdoing and wasting resources if you decide to add anything to it from that point on.
I don't know if it's that simple, but it kind of made sense to me at the time.
There definitely is truth to that. However it just depends on who the client is. On items that anyone can buy there is a huge range of expectations. For some "close enough is good enough" holds true, and for others it can be "do it right or don't do it at all." So with this video it sort of shows both sides of those perspectives.
Really appreciate the literally in depth review/comparison. Like many, many, many others this is probably my #1 pen. If anything ever happened to it, I would replace it immediately!
This is a great video. Please make more CSI videos and possibly some machining ;)
Well I don't have a machine shop so not setup to do any machining. But these in depth videos are fun to do sometimes
Great video which I’ve finally got round to watching. Even though I’m a non technical bod I found it fascinating. I’d feel uncomfortable about buying a replica of such iconic pen especially when it pays such faithful homage to the original and would prefer to invest that amount on something more individual like the TWSBI. Still paying 35 bucks for a pen that works decently is not too shabby. At the end of the day it’s a classic case of you get what you pay for versus the law of diminishing returns. Thanks again Doodle Bud😊
I might get the clear one 😊
Great video. I don’t own either of these pens. The 823 is the only pen I’m hoping to get this year.
I appreciate the engineering perspective. Great video. Makes me want a Twsbi.
I can't understand why some people buy such rubbish!
For the $35 price tag it ain't half bad. Works well, & if you lost it or broke it you wouldn't have the mini heart attack if you did that with a $300-$400 pen.
@@Doodlebud Point taken.
This might be a good travel pen I was thinking. Lots of ink for a trip so no need to bring cartridges, can seal off the chamber, comfortable enough, decent nib (might need adjustment to get it just right), and don't have to worry if it gets lost, forgotten, confiscated, dropped, etc. I wonder about the plastic durability however. Also the sealing. I might do a follow up Vaccum Chamber test on the pen to test it.
Fascinating tear-down of two very similar looking products. Great investigation and conclusion.
I agree with all the little detail and finishing points but having been very impressed with the Wing Sung 699 I just bought a Pilot - not the 823 but the Custom 74. The Pilot is nowhere near as nice to write with - the nib is draggy and scratchy and hardly writes on upstrokes. I am shocked that the Wing Sung feels so much better and writes so much better.
My 699 writes wonderfully as well. Yeah that sucks when you get a bum nib on a high end pen. You figured the higher price would guarantee that issue be fixed but unfortunately not always the case
The 823 is my best and favorite pen. If I lost all of my pens this would be the only one I would replace my entire collection with. I would need two though, one in F and one in M 😉
Which nib do you prefer? I’m really itching for a 823 - most of my pens are M but I’m thinking of getting a F because I write on yellow legal pads all day and I find that some of my M nibs just lay down too much ink for that cheap paper
@@MIAthe305 definitely go for a Japanese fine, it writes cheap office printer paper and student notebooks, no bleed through or feathering
Try one first, if you can, at a brick and mortar store or show. If you can't, make sure you can return it without a hassle, and don't fill it, but dip test.
@Joseph Carmi I have a M 823 and love it. I would like to get a F for just the reasons you mention. Best case, I have both sizes 🙂
thoroughly enjoyed the analysis of the machining processes, thank you!
Two questions: Do you open and close the valve on the 823 as it runs out of ink in the feed? If yes, are you closing it while the nib is pointing down? Because if that's how it writes when the feed has stabilised after filling, that seems incredibly wet to me compared to any 823 I've ever used.
Honestly, I just leave it open. No issues.
Mine is very wet for a fine. I might do a video on reducing ink flow for this pen.
If I keep it in my pocket I keep it closed, and for short notes I do not bother opening it, but if writing for a while I will. The one I keep on my desk as a desk pen I leave it open, as there is really no need to close it. The wetness of the flow can greatly depend on ink as well, so this can also help with that I suppose.
@@Doodlebud Reason I ask is that if you close the valve while the nib is pointing down(or even when it's pointing up if there is ink sitting behind the feed), you are displacing whatever the volume is of the piece of rod being pushed into the barrel. So anything with an internal rod(shut-off eye dropper like an Opus 88, bulkfiller, vacuumfiller) will push a couple of drops worth of ink into the feed if you close the knob, unless the air bubble in the barrel can exit the feed through the air channel without being obstructed by ink sitting against the back of the feed; this would obviously make the pen write very wetly. Works the other way around too: before you close the knob on any of these pens, you can hold the pen nib up and fully unscrew and pull the rod back a bit to suck the ink out of the feed before you shut the valve. Then you can be 100% sure it won't leak on a plane because there is only air sitting in your feed.
I was wondering if you could make a video with swapping nibs on the wing sung 699, if you have any spare jowo, bock, schmidt (FH452) number 6 to see if they fit and what is the performance. I like the ergonomics of the pen but i absolutely despise the logo and branding and i am thinking of grinding those out with a dremel. Also a mod idea would be to get the rod out and plug the hole so that it is easy to fill with an ink syringe and have a screw on blind cap. This way i would have a comfy everyday pen easy to operate with good ergonomics that i could use with a number of nibs. Hope to see a video on that. Thanks
I do have a few nibs to play around with and maybe I can show a nib swap on that pen
@@Doodlebud I 'll be looking forward to that! Thank you.
A great review video.
That was fun and interesting DB, thanks! The kicker for me was the comparison to the Eco at the end--suggests a
fair price for the Wing Sung would be $10 or so less.
David, no argument except I have several Chinese look alike ECO's that cost $1 or $2. So what is the real value of the ECO or any pen for that matter? This type of comparison drives me crazy.
@@donbrownist Me too, but they do not seal well, and the ink dries up, and needs repriming. In comparison the 699 keep wet, even when not used for a bit, as those caps seal well. I keep pretty esoteric ink in a couple of them, so they don't get everyday exercise, while the Amber one has Yama Budo, so it writes daily. Just remember to open the false cap to let the ink flow. I keep that open on the desk pen, and only seal them on the ones in my pockets. You can get WS 3013 for as low as a few dollars if you are willing to wait on the slow shipping. Used a couple of those to mess with modifying nibs into stubs, and oblique stubs, as they were cheap enough to learn on. The WS 698 is a better version of a Chinese impression of a TWISBY like pen, just like WS 699 is for the 823, but the WS with three digits model numbers cost more than the four digit models, which are made elsewhere, but while the three digits models cost more they are better pens, and the four digit models are cheaper, but for a good reason, as quality lacks in comparison. I would get Jinhao pens instead of those. To me quality of the bigger names in Chinese pens goes something like this: PenBBS > Moonman > WS three digit models > Jinhao > Kaigelu > Hero > WS four digit models > Duke. If one of the four at the top made a turned acrylic version of the Custom 823, then it would be about perfect.
@@martinlebl631 well my first and only PenBBS cracked at the section after one month ... never going to buy another one. On the other hand my Moonman M800 with Bock nib Leonardo Momento Zero copy) is absolutely perfect!
Wing Sung and Jinhao are somewhere in the middle with Wing Sung being a little better: my two 699 are just excellent, they write every time, their nibs are smooth and decent, in general I have no issues at all with them.
(All my five 3013s after 2 years have corroded shafts, broken o rings and clips and various other fails, I don't use them anymore 😢)
Excellent detailed review. I love that you do a full disassembly and part by part analysis. I have a 699, which I like, but the next pen acquisition for me is the Pilot 823. (BTW, it’s author Neil Gaiman’s fountain pen of choice). One question, are both of the feeds plastic? I think maybe the Pilot uses ebonite?
Both feeds are plastic. The Pilot has a different design that seems to help with ink flow. On my Pilot 912 with FA I did have to swap it out with an aftermarket feed so it had sufficient ink flow to keep up with the flex
Even with all the cost cutting. It doesn't really explain the price difference. Reality is they could have easily refined the pen more and wouldn't cost maybe a few bucks more.
The real cost savings is it's made in China where labor costs is in the pennies per pen. You cannot compete with that when you pay skilled craftsman in Japan to build it with that level of detail. Which personaly happy to do so. As much as I appreciate the value proposition of the Chinese copy. I want my money to go to a company that pays their workers a half decent wage.
TWSBI just triggers self cracking twice. Rubbish. Farewell.
Got the 699 for travel, and the 823 for home. The WS helped me figure out the sizing.
Well done ... thank you. For $35, not a bad pen. But it's good to know what the differences are between the 2 models. I do love my 823, but I can see getting the Wing Sung to use for my shop.
Yup, a good one to use when you're worried about the expensive one getting smashed!
I can't afford an 823 right now, and until I can, I ordered a WS699 to have as an EDC. But doing my due diligence and researching my purchase, I started thinking about possible repairs and replacements. I get WS699 probably has absolutely no aftersales service, and to be honest for the price it is to be expected. But considering that I might order an 823 in the next 3-5 years I tried finding information on Pilot warranty and possible spare part market. The information I found is that the 823 comes with 1 year warranty that doesnt repair, but offer a comparable product. And besides few small scale enterprises that are rumored to "hook me up" with a spare part if I need one and can wait a while, I found no mention of spare parts.
That is outrageous for a product of that cost. One can buy a big house appliance where I live and still expect to find parts to repair it if it malfunctions.
Has anyone here found something different on that regard? I don't want to invest in a grail pen whose manufacturer will leave me hanging after 1 year of warranty.
Late to the party, I know. But, there is a big difference between the XF & F Wing Sung nibs in many of the 600 numbered models. The M is much softer and the XF & F are like nails. Just something to consider when buying. I love my 699 and will eventually buy the real thing. That is something that i would have never considered without owning the knockoff so they're not always a bad thing.
Hello,
Like your excellent personality, so was is video.
Thanks a bunch.
Regards,
How weird that your 823 comes with an F nib that writes more like a (Japanese) M. In my experience, Pilot is pretty consistent in nib width, even across the different models.
I have two Wing Sung 699 pens (EF) and a Pilot 823 (F). One of the Wing Sungs came with a dud nib and I replaced it with a JoWo #6 EF nib. The F nib in my 823 is plenty juicy and, as is to be expected, writes more like a Western EF. It isn't all that smooth (again, to be expected for a nib this fine) but plenty juicy. In that regard, I'm afraid to admit that the Wing Sung with the JoWo nib provides a more enjoyable writing experience. Given the fact that the MSRP of the 823 is 350€ on my side of the globe (or almost 500 funny Canadian Tire dollars), it's a bit disconcerting that a 50€ pen (price of the JoWo nib included) is lovelier to write with. The fact that the plunger rod may or may not have a burr really means bupkis to me. Or as we say in Dutch: "it can gather rust on my arse".
I have adjusted my nib on my 823. Never been happy with it since day one. I thought making it a bit wider tip would help, but still not there. The fine on my vintage Pilot Elite is exquisite! I still like the pen and the build quality is amazing, perhaps I got a bum nib. Still thinking about what I should do with it. The WS 699 is pretty damn impressive for the price. But the one issue I have with mine at least, is it dries up surprisingly quick. Not sure what other's experience has been, but my 823 has never hard started even after several months without being used.
@@Doodlebud I've heard that Pilot offers excellent customer support in North-America, so maybe they can help? I'm sure it wouldn't hurt if you casually mention that you have a popular RUclips channel. 😁
Oh I've thoroughly voided any warranty this pen would have had long time ago LOL. And there's video proof of me voiding the warranty. I'll get it sorted out. I'm still debating how I want this pen to perform and how I want to use it. Once I figure that out it will guide me as to what I want to do with the nib
I am having a particular problem with my Vac699 Wingsung.
After finishing writing i screw back the vac knob like in all Vac mechanism pens one is supposed to
however as soon as i screwon the cap
some ink leaks from the nib and feed into the cap
this is not only causing things to get messy but also wasting some ink every time I write with it
Can u please suggest a way out
I keep the nib side up while doing all of this
it's a beautiful writing instrument
and I wish to keep on using it
will making a tiny hole in the cap help by preventing the vacum to suck out ink while recapping it?
Please help
I find the PenBBS 456 is much closer to the Pilot 823 and in some ways it's better (metal threads).
I've recently got my WS 699 and loved it once I unpacked it.
However, while there are certainly good times when it writes wet and smooth there are times when it gets dry and starts skipping. Of course, I know about unwinding the knob to let the ink flow, however I also noticed that sometimes there are air bubbles in the ink that seem to obstruct the ink flow. I'm not sure whether it's the problem of the ink (it's karkos black) or of the pen, but that's what my experience with it is
Just got a Wing Sung 699, it’s a terrible pen. Decide to return within 10mins. The Asvine V126 is a far better quality, fit and finish pen.
Wing Sung 699 Issues:
- Notchy/unsmooth plastic threads on the filler collar and the end cap.
- The tines on my nib is split uneven, also it’s so scratchy on paper even before inking it up. It’s not ‘feedback’, it’s straight up a defective nib.
- The valve seal is smaller diameter than the internal diameter of the nib section, so it doesn’t actually plug up the hole at all. The plunger seal barely touches the section, it might just about seal it but that’s not what the plunger seal is for.
- The nib section threads are also ~1mm too short, the oring does not form a seal to the barrel. This could be fixed by removing the silver trim between the section and barrel so the section screws further in (and it can). This explains the leaks I’ve read about.
I’d go as far as saying the Wing Sung 699 is defective by design.
Ok ok, buying WingSung 699 is perfect reason to buy Pilot 823. I do like this video except there is only one Like button.
I love this video (in fact, it convinced me to buy an 823, which is now my number 1). Would love to see a follow up comparison with the newly released Asvine V126.
If I pick one up I'll be sure to do a detailed review of it. Good to hear you're enjoying your 823 :)
Except the nib, I think the wing sung costs 5$ to manufacture and the pilot 7$ (my 2 cents o the problem)
I actually like the little more transparent plastic. For the money the WS 699 is a great pen. In the North American market the Custom 823 is outrageously priced, and nib selection is weak. In Japan the Custom 823 is priced a lot cheaper, and is offered with larger range of Pilot's nibs.
Pricing is better in Japan. I got mine from Pen Chalet. They had a sale on, plus I had a discount code & US/CAD exchange was pretty good at the time.
Same here in China, steep but fair price for an outstanding product (with warrant). My wife got me one for $190, without warranty, of course (and yes, I could pick any nib I want to).
With Wing Sung 699 is like with Pilot Metropolitan - almost everyone says it's a great pen, but with notion "for that price".
Great Video. I bought a Wing Sung 699, and I never even noticed all of the things that you pointed out. However, my biggest issue was the top finial snapped off, but it was always in a hard leather pen sleave.
I forgot to show that in the video 😣. When I took the end cap off I was like WOAH! Why is there like 1 thread holding the cap on!?
are the end caps interchangable? the end cap on my custom 823 is damaged and it might be cheaper to just get an end cap by buying the wing sung
Can I use 699 barrel in 823???
Please ….
I am waiting for your answer…
Such a great video. I somehow missed this from a year ago, but just came across it while making my own video of the 699. I will link this video in my description since there are some amazing details here that I don't even come close to covering.
Question is - is it really about having a nicely molded inside of a bottom cap that noone is ever going to see?
I like when things are manifactured properly and with attention to detail, I just do not think people in general should be bashing "cheap" knock-offs that work almost just as well but cut a few negligible corners. If I haad unlimited money, sure, get me some Pilot 823. Sadly I don't.
I lost the gold ring on my pilot custom 823 when cleaning it dissemble (despite what this review said), so I had to buy a wing sung 699 to replace the gold ring because pilot in my country would not sell the ring or repair it