Ed Trice vs Susan Polgar in Gothic Chess match - AncientChess.com
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- Опубликовано: 7 дек 2017
- In October, 2006, Gothic Chess inventor Ed Trice met with Women's World Champion, Grandmaster Susan Polgar and International Master Paul Truong. Susan had just finished playing a 64 game simultaneous exhibit in Philadelphia. This special meeting was to discuss Trice's plans for a Gothic Chess match between chess legends Anatoly Karpov and Bobby Fischer. While they were together, Trice and Polgar played this fascinating game.
Trice's original Gothic Chess sets, as played in this high level match, also presented to Fischer and Karpov, are available from AncientChess.com
Thanks for the upload. I never would've thought to look up high level matchups for variations of chess.
Ed points out to me that after the rook threatens the bishop at 5:23, that bishop really does have to run away -- it's also threatened by the archbishop on g1. Those new pieces can be so tricky!
AncientChess Hey Rick have you ever heard of the game Feudal? It's not chess but clearly has roots on the genre. If you haven't you'll want to! It's an epic battle if you have the players. I ran a chess/ board game club for kids with an old man who had a set last year. Pretty sure fairly rare game, right up your alley!
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feudal_(game)
Hey thanks for suggesting that. I'll check into it ... Feudal .... looks interesting!
..I got a copy of the game ... now just have to get someone to play it with me...
Gothic Chess is really cool! I have two sets so I can play Bughouse with it.
Wow, bughouse Gothic -- what could be better than that! Wish I could join in
@@AncientChess It is a lot of fun, especially with the two new pieces.
Staggering!
Also if you have a link of wher to buy a gothic chess set that would b great
I like the Staunton style knighted bishop and rook made by Rick Knowlton. The style appeals to me. Where can I buy them?
Thanks for your message. Please contact me through my website AncientChess.com
What do you think the strategc differences are between GOthic Chess and Normal Chess?
It seems that there are MORE powerful pieces around, which changes the game a bit.
Also I read once that games in capablanca chess nd to be shorter, only 25 moves compared to 40 for normal chess. is this the same with Gothic Chess?
ty
Thanks for the good question. I haven't played and studied enough to have a solid opinion, but what I gather is that the position is over-all more dynamic, so material imbalances can be way offset by position and initiative. Ed, who created this, is the real expert -- he continues to do theoretical work and plays at a very high level. If we can get Ed to sound in here, he'll give the best advice
i love play this
Hello! As a huge chess variant enthusiast, I have noticed that our community needs a consolidated place to exchange ideas and share, so I have created an official Chess Variant Forum that I invite all of you, to join. There you can talk all about your creations and ideas.
Here is the link: chessvariantforum.createaforum.com
I truly miss the Gothic chess website to play on and watch the competition. Will, he ever get it going again? I was considering buying a board and pieces :)
Thanks for the message. I know Ed Trice has been looking at bringing more attention to Gothic Chess again. At the moment, I'm expecting to get some nice vinyl playing mats (10 x 8 squares), which I'll be listing soon. We'll see what the next wave of Gothic Chess brings....
I have the pieces; still waiting on the board...
I'm supposed to be getting some vinyl mats for Gothic Chess from Ed Trice ... I'll have to contact him, see what the holdup is -- I guess a delay with the manufacturer.
I make wooden boards by sawing 2 regular boards into 5 x 8 pieces and putting them together with a flexible adhesive strip, so the board folds along the center. Here's a video of that, with my own self-explanatory pieces ruclips.net/video/p7wUq521qbk/видео.html
Cool
Pretty exciting game. Very tactical and used all of the pieces including the minor ones to great effect. My 10x8 games are never that interesting.
We'll have to ask Susan if she wants to play with us some time!
Imagine my surprise when I had 6 pieces developed AND I was up one piece for a mere pawn when Susan played ...e5! and was able to turn things around. This taught me a very good lesson: Just getting a lead in development for the sake of having it is not enough. Every move must be justified with searches for combinations, no matter how good things look on the surface.
The best laid plans of strategic chess players often go awry, don't they! That's always the problem with chess -- no matter how much strategy and planning you put into it there's some wiseguy who pulls the rug right out from under you ... ah, those grandmasters! They always just .... know what they're doing!
Very nyc
I wounder why variations like this or Seirawan ain't taken more seriously by the chess community. Chess with fairy pieces is fun and exciting.
I totally agree. Especially these variants with knight/bishop and knight/rook pieces, which are very easy to grasp by traditional players -- but add immensely to the game! I think many chess players are stuck on the 'known' game -- especially if they have been studying all the openings and so on which are pretty useless in a slightly different game. But with so many draws in the highest level of chess, I think it really is time for new ideas -- and there are many to choose from!
@@AncientChess It is most likely a mixture of stubbornness and conservatism. With age comes conservatism, it says. I have seen many replying "chess is complicated enough for me" and "ain't regular chess complicated enough" by numerous users on chess forums when replying to variant chess questions and opinions. knight/bishop hybrid and knight/rook hybrid is simple fairy pieces. It take some time to get used to them like everything else in life.
@@Litago94 Yes, I have heard the like. It is unfortunate, as if learning something new would crowd out the precious brain space used for this particular sort of chess. I am sure the opposite would occur -- they would open their minds to new possibilities in all cases. It is as if a person studying English didn't want to taint themselves with other languages -- which I think most people would find ridiculous. I think bringing the game out, telling how great champions like Capablanca, Fischer and Seirawan have promoted or taken an interest in these ... and letting them actually play may be the best solution. They miss so much in their close-mindedness
I love the unbalanced positions that often arise.
I don't know anyone who plays Seirawan Chess. The variant site I play on doesn't have it and seems to have no plans to do so.
Nice game yo
Thanks for the good comment! You gonna play this game blindfolded?
Haha no, I am barely decent in normal 8x8 chess blindfolded. I will play Gothic chess for its variant feel.
And I could not save the Bishop after Susan's highly effective 10...e5! move. It took me a while to work out that 11. Be3 would be met by Qxd8! leading to 12. Bc5+ Ae7 13. Qxd8 Bxh3+ 14. Axh3 Rxd8 15. Bxe7+ Cxe7. After such a forced exchange sequence black would have the advantage of Chancellor + pawn over Archbishop.
Thanks very much for that added analysis! I went over the game very quickly to make a 10-minute video but the game itself deserves a very deep look, to garner its instructive value. I hope interested viewers will make good use of the [pause] button.
Hello! As a huge chess variant enthusiast, I have noticed that our community needs a consolidated place to exchange ideas and share, so I have created an official Chess Variant Forum that I invite all of you, to join. There you can talk all about your creations and ideas.
Here is the link: chessvariantforum.createaforum.com
This is similar to Seirawan chess.
Good observation -- also notice the differences. There is a long line of chess variants with this idea -- our book covers them in great detail ( aworldofchess.com/video.html ). A good video about them is at ruclips.net/video/p7wUq521qbk/видео.html
I'm classical player at heart, this looks like a really fun variant though. Thanks for the link!
I love the classical European game as well! I think for a lover of standard chess, this is one of the most accessible variant ideas -- especially with the promotion of such luminaries as Capablanca and Ed Lasker -- and drawing the interest of Susan Polgar, Karpov and Fischer.
But the classical game is going through a renaissance of its own on the internet -- I'm tuned to the US championship today, and can't wait for the world title match in November!
I'll be watching to. Lets go Fabi!!
Many setups with these pieces are playable, but the best one was probably Capablanca's version despite the fact that it leaves a pawn unguarded. You just have to watch out for it.
Putting the king and queen in the middle of the board is critical to the artistic appeal of Chess and outweighs protecting each pawn at the start of the game. By placing the 2 combo pieces in between the knight and bishop, it allows both combo pieces which are knights to be next to a normal knight so they do not run into each other.
Hey Jason, I know, it was with great reluctance that Ed separated the king and queen. But in his analysis it made the best game, not just in defending the pawn, but considering the possible early attacks and defenses. If you dialog with him a bit you'll see that a lot of thought went into this question. Cool thing is, once you get the set, you can put the pieces wherever you want -- you'll have a great game!
The unguarded pawn in Capablanca's Chess is the reason why the game is not played extensively today. White to move can win with 1. d3 and Black cannot hope to hold out for a draw. Even employing the most rigorous of defenses, Black is basically "fighting the tide" and White can overwhelm the board and set up one deadly double attack after another. The quintessential demonstration of this, while it does not feature a "forced" checkmate, is this 6-move minature:
1. d3 Nh6
2. Ci3 Cg6
3. Qd2 f5
4. Cxi7 Cxi7
5. Qxh6 gxh6
6. Axh6#
The "surprise" move Cxi7 cannot be recommended, as it sets up the mate, and you can get away with this only once, but after sacrificing your chancellor, virtually everyone will also take your sacrificed Queen one move later. Hardly anybody sees the solo checkmate of the Archbishop, since this does not exist in chess.
There are many ways to exploit the i-pawn weakness, and even if Black defends "properly," there is just no hope to hold out for the duration of the game.
Rick is correct, it was a great source of stress for me to separate the king and queen. Then the thought occurred to me: Their close proximity is more a function of the smaller 8x8 board size than anything else. On larger boards, with stronger pieces, balance of power, harmony of the pieces, and protection of the pawns is hypercritical.
Consider this: Put the Queen on e1 next to the King on f1. Put the Rooks, Knights, and Bishops on their normal chess counterpart squares: a1,b1,c1 and j1,i1,h1. Put the Chancellor on g1, which means the Archbishop must go on d1.
Guess what? White has a mate in 2 potentially since the h-pawn is now unguarded.
1. Ch3 d5?? 2. Cxh7# is a smothered checkmate.
Oh, I see. Embassy Chess with the King on e1 and the RN piece on f1 is also fairly playable. Unfortunately, Brain King does not have Gothic Chess on its server, so I really only played Embassy, Casablanca Random Chess, and Janus Chess.
Another good setup would be the Capablanca 10x8 setup with the Queen and Chancellor switching places. That takes care of the unguarded pawn and allows all of the pieces to develop easily. I personally prefer it when the bishops are moved inwards so they do not start out on the long diagonal pointing at the opposing rook right away. I believe a bishop has to be moved at least once to aim itself at the other side's rook. This set up could be called Capablanca Chess Revised as it is closest to his setup.
The best site to play is at jocly.com where I play. There you will find Panzerschiff and Shogi who are fantastic players and very easy to get along with. They are both true expert strength and above and variant enthusiasts.
Embassy Chess is playing with castling colors reversed though. You castle on the short side to the left as white, and the long side is to the right. To me, that seems awkward. You feel like you should have the black pieces with white, and the white pieces with black. Also the pieces to the non-queenside are overloaded. You have the Archbishop and Chancellor next to each other instead of one on each side of the board. This setup was also tried and I could not find people that wanted to play it.
The people with whom I interacted during my two years of play testing also play tested what you refer to as Revised Capablanca Chess. In my notes we called that "Capablanca C" because we already had two other variations as "Capablanca A" and "Capablanca B." Capablanca C had the drawback of "Major Piece Fianchetto Only" and the King's Indian players let their strong rebukes be heard. They tried coping with:
1. Nh3 d5 2. i3 e5 3. Qi2 Nc6 4. f3 trying to prepare 5. Bf2 and 6. O-O but they kept running into moves like 4...i5! against which they were powerless to act on via 5. Nxi5?? because of Archbishop takes Queen. So a few runups were 1. Nh3 d5 2. i3 e5 3. Qi2 Nc6 4. f3 i5 5. Bc5+ Be7 6. Bxe7 Cxe7 7. g4 i4! and their positional goal of a safe, quick kingside castle was disrupted.
In summary: Capablanca C still does not allow for standard bishop Fianchetto positions, and attempts to assimilate it with the major pieces are punished severely.
So the chancellor (rook/knight) Is more valuable than the queen but less valuable than the Archbishop (Bishop/Knight). Chess bias prevents the trade but if you can give up the queen for either of those pieces you are winning the large exchange. But that is my opinon having not played the game.
I think the queen is still more powerful according to objective analysis, but the chancellor and archbishop are so tricky and surprising to the standard chess player that their special moves become decisive in many games. In general, because this game is so dynamic, the material count doesn't have as much meaning and the initiative is often what decides the game.... that's what I've observed anyway so far