Has AI Gone TOO FAR?!?
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- Опубликовано: 20 янв 2023
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#ageofempires #ageofempires4 #aoe4 
Игры
I love how you explain what you are doing....it really helps newer player like me....i feel there is lack of these kind of playstyle....most streamer or youtuber just stay quite or interact with chat which makes it difficult for player like me to understand whats going on....sorry for my english
Agreed. I'm a new player as well and these types of videos really helps a lot.
I’ve tried to watch Mr Merlin, Fitz, etc.. and it just isn’t the same. The way Drongo constantly explains the thought process around the game mechanics and strategy options, all while being engaging and entertaining is unmatched.
It’s like watching a sports broadcast but for AOE
He's my favorite AOE guy. Spirit of the Law is really good but he mostly does AOE II
Mr Drongo is definitely one of a kind. His enthusiasm led me back to playing aoe4 again. Still haven't braved playing multiplayer yet!
Yeah, I miss grubby&hera playing aoe4. They used to do the same during games, which was great information 👍
For all the egregious mistakes the AI makes with engagements and decision-making that I'm sure we've all noticed and seen case in point with Beasty's AI Tourney, it is Absolutely Too Far how they called it a day after giving the AI a 2x resource-gathering bonus whilst also having extra resources off bat.
Not only a cheap fix but it feels like they didn't even try to properly address the issues with the deep learning or whatever Neural Network issue they now have. I'm not underplaying how difficult some of these issues can be to remedy, but I personally would have preferred if they just did bug fixes w/o making the AI cheat on the "Hardest Difficulty," (for the exact reason that all players need to beat this AI to complete their Civ Masteries; making that too hard auto- makes a chunk of the player-base feel unable to improve & leave--not even bothering to play against real people in QM or Ranked as a large chunk of players ONLY EVER play against AI).
If you insist Relic, play it like StarCraft 2 where the AI has extra "Cheater" difficulty options if you find the Hardest isn't hard enough.ous
They don't have a neural network. AI in RTS is a misnomer, it's not actually an Artificial Intelligence. It's a program that they're working on all the time.
The point about the Masteries being impossible with the new AI - very fair. You need to be an advanced player to beat a Hardest AI now
🤣🤣 i just hear whining go get better and beat it lmao.
Do you have any idea how expensive creating incredibly intuitive AI is? It's not even the correct term for it, as said above. The AI that you and others like you speak of costs millions upon millions of dollars. Just to implement it into a game mode that 97% of the community doesn't even bother with in the first place because they play customs and ranked online with players. What does Relic get for achieving the development of this supreme AI that people like you want? Are you gonna pay them more money for the development of it? How about the maintenance through patches? Should we convert AOE4 to a subscription based game? How does $14.99/month sound?
You can just start maxed res, then age up and pump units into the ai base, I did this just to get it done faster. I’m sure it would still work against this AI.
Noone who criticises AI modeling understands factors that come into play when programming the damn thing. It is incredibly complex and apart from allowing the AI to "cheat", there is currently no way a game developer can make an AI capable of beating high level rts player. No way and that's a period. Developers won't say this of course.
I've been getting absolutely creamed by the hardest AI on PUP. This made me feel a lot better seeing a much better player getting beaten at the 15min mark like I have been trying booming and feudal aggression.
Played some matches against hardest Mongol as French and I immediately noticed the difference. AI will put down their first landmark ridiculously fast, and have enough bank to immediately start a feudal all-in, while still gets to castle as if they were booming.
Early aggression such as tower rush have mixed results, as you will need nothing short of a most perfect rush to even disrupt AI's timing. In most cases, they would have already mined enough gold to go feudal and crush you anyway. I personally found most success by going into late game where eco growth no longer matters and you can fight on equal grounds, though it's still pretty difficult as you will need to win every single engagement with minimal losses in feudal to just survive to that point.
A friend and I are only fight against the bots when we play AoE, we do 2 vs 4 and make big defense bases while we face Mongols or Delhi, seeing this makes me want to see how we will be against the bots now.
I played with my friend earlier, post-update AI absolutely crushed us in a 2v1 lol.
I normally do online but tried this AI, got destroyed by it, I eventually managed to win 1v1 on Mountain Pass (like 4th attempt lol) having walled off the middle.. I went 3 tc and trade and once I hit max pop I found it to be just a normal ai game.. you can take the ai out of bot level but you can't take the bot out of the ai!
When the patch dropped; I was afraid I got worse while playing against hardest AI after not playing for a week. glad to learn that the AI is just getting buffed and I'm not getting worse
It's not smarter, it's cheating. They get double resources
@@jamesk8730 my bad, worded it a bit wrong
@@jamesk8730 really? I don't like this at all... You have sources to say that?
@@midas-holysmoke7642 it's literally written into the pup notes. also mentioned in drongos video about the pup update
1:50 when he talks about it.. did you even watch the video?
I've been waiting for you to do this since the PuP dropped! They should change this Ai to "brutal" and bring back the old hardest and keep improving it aswell as maybe a 25% handicap
Thankya Drongo for everything you do and your passion for the game big man. Hope the new year treats you well man
I am absolutely disgusted by their move to make the AI cheat instead of fixing it up. Shows poor craftsmanship and disregard for players trying to learn by playing AI.
Me too..
Though making a good AI is a job in itself. I mean it takes a full team a year or more to make an AI compete at the top human level. Though they should have added the option to set the cheat amount between -50% to +100%.
All i hear is whining. If u cant beat it too bad get better
It’s called HARDEST AI for a reason. If anybody could beat them then people would be complaining it’s not hard enough.
Not only did they skip PUP, I don’t think they even bothered play-testing this shit😂
Game 1 is what happened to me haha. I thought I took good fights and my TC killed a ton of units, figured I had fought them off until a second bigger army just showed up and steamrolled me. Double resources is crazy.
For me this is more of a cheap fix.They should have added it as an extra option, not as an update to A.I. Hardest.
I know masteries aren't hugely popular, but you're supposed to beat this A.I. as part of learning a civ - which a lot of players might not be able to anymore, unless you cheese it with a max resource start.
It still does core things that are a problem. It bangs its head against your walls and gets slaughtered by towers and castles. They also don't counter properly. They'll send 50 horsemen into all your spearmen over and over instead of making Man at Arms or archers to counter. They also still have an idle villager issue where sometimes a gold nine or stone pile is completed and they're just standing around. The Hardest makes them hard because of the sheer speed at advancing now and constant units but at their core the AI still feels kind of stupid.
It's because they have a 2x resource multiplier. They can and will do everything bigger and faster, not because of any efficiency jump, but because their gather rate is double by default.
Ok, now i'm a bit more relaxed. Even the Pros are getting some hard time with the new AI.
It's really stupid...you can not beat the new hardest AI :( It simply have too many resources no mather what. What's the point?
Damn Hardest Delhi AI is crazy hard. Everything is cool and whatnot when they roll up in your base 15lancers, 20tower elephants and 10 war elephants. And if you ever build spearman they have 70 archers in 3 mins.
This AI should be called impossible AI. And make hardest a lesser version. Now Hard is too easy Hardest too hard.
I am a Mongol main. I played against the new Mongols Hardest AI last night. Lost twice in a row. The unlimited droves of Feudal Age horsemen were unbelievable. I made it to Castle Age, but was overrun by horsemen and lancers.
This AI is similar to the Brutal AI mod which gives the AI 3x resource gain. Generally the difference increases don't make too much of a different (Insane AI mod is 7x gain), the timings are just slightly faster which each and it is definitely doable, just stupidly hard involving unique builds to rush defenses (like castle on English) or so on. This isn't always a winning strategy though (AI making wonder at 16 minute mark or so helps since they become less aggressive)
I don't know if anyone can beat the AI solo....I was blown away at the increase in difficulty compared to the old one.
Bee did live on Twitch, and beasty did it ... everyone of the pros can do it easily I think
I think the real question is how many hardest ai can they beat at the same time.
@@shieldmate7444 yep. 3 could be impossible
I am not even a conqueror and I was able to do it, without burger spam with mass food or early aggression. It's AI, still you can drag the game out with walls/keeps and make him run with 80 pop army to chase 6 knights. Drongo played too conventional and get rekt.
Now I want to see Beastyqt vs 7 hardest ai. If he wins this I send the man 50 euro 😂 who’s in for a bet?
I don't see how anyone could possibly win that
You can't win that they would all attack in feudal with too much mass to stop.
Unwinnable
A.I. Weakness is vs defensive buildings and pathing towards resources. Drongo was so focused on macro booming in the first game, and playing like he was facing a human. Once you learn the weaknesses you'll have a much easier time. Like build a wall with no gate but a hole in it, then chuck a bunch of towers or a castle and the A.I. will continually go to that hole instead of breaking a non-defended area. Also defensive landmarks are more valuable vs the A.l. White tower and Berkshire would have been preferred in these match ups. Another tip would be to build a mango as early as possible, A.I. is very dented when fighting them, often completely ignoring them when other targets are present.
I have beaten the hardest ai in pup now a few times and mostly by early effective tower rush with mongol and barb rush with china. Past that, beat it with China once by surviving (after several attempts) until they were out of resources and we were in late age 4. The issue is around the time you are age 3, they can go age 4 and drop constant wonders / etc. At least you can still tower rush the ai if you are fast.
Overall, I really do not like the new AI, it is just not fun.
I was just playing against them with my friend and we struggled two Vs one. They do seem to crumble in the middle but it's really intense!
Curious - were you playing on the PUP?
The only way I’ve been able to beat this AI is by immediately tower rushing
This is why as an AoE and RTS fan. I utterly F***ing HAAAAAAAAAAAAATE playing against the hardest A.I.
It's like as soon as you put them on the back foot. They have like a button to get a quick mass of units out of nowhere.
That's why you have to cut off their supplies and resources as quickly as possible. Because they're protective of their villagers/settlers/workers/SCVs. But then it turns into a painfully hard game of multitasking. Where you need to mass an army while harassing their workers. Some are master artists at that. I'm not that good.
I guess I’ll just never complete any Test of Strength IV’s then. I haven’t been able to beat the old hardest AI yet, no chance now.
Don't understand why it was necessary to make the AI cheat.. for most, the old hardest AI is a nice difficulty I guess. Hard was way easier. If someone wanted more challenge, he could play against two or more hardest AI's (like Beauty did), or just play online... I'm really disappointed with this change, cause hard is way to easy for me and hardest is unbeatable.
Have you tried you and a hard AI versus 1 hardest AI? Help balance it out at least.
i like the new hardest AI, its a bit exagerating but once they tune it a bit more... i'd appreciate a very very hard AI.. its still beta so most likely its not gonna be like this
@@tentaklaus9382 not yet indeed, it's a good idea and I'll try it. But I do think it'll feel differently, cause I like one vs one on small maps to mimic the pvp games.
@@nationarmy2514 respect ;) I can imagine that more challenge is necessary. I do hope they'll just keep both, the older hardest AI and the new cheating AI for people who want more challenge. In AOE2, there were also AI's added later on (with Forgotten Empires I think and later even with mods).
To put things in perspective: I'm told that the old hardest AI roughly matches the early gold-ranks? The hard AI maybe matches silver? If this new AI isn't even beatable by an Conq 3 (with normal strategies), than the difficulty-gap between Hard en Cheating-hardest is way to big. IMO.
After trying to play solo against a Hardest AI all night, I have no idea why they didn't just make this a separate harder AI setting. Right now there's no enjoyable difficulty to play anymore. Hard is incredibly boring to play against, and now Hardest is literally just wasting your time. Either that or they should have spent way more time thinking about the adjustment to make. Just adding a 2x resource increase across the board is such an incredibly lazy and broken update. There's no reason to even try playing this game offline right now.
Strongly agree
You sure the AI doesn't cheat? (Like increased gathering rate)
Find it hard to believe that the AI gets double the ressources with the same amount of villagers...
The devs specifically stated in the PUP patch notes that the new Hardest A.I now get a cheat
yes, they have increased income and some boosts like that...not what i like^^
he literally says that the new AI cheats
@@tqhung166 Thanks, didn't read the patch notes :)
my guess as to why you got the overall star on Economy even when going 0/6 was because the game reckons it in based on the "actual" economy, before the cheat surplus the AI gets kicks in.
Hey drongo, I beat the hardest French AI using the English civ. Dark Age MAA rush is definitely the way to go, I also opened with double scout. I went council hall for my Feudal and spammed in spears and longbows. I used demuslims build. Let me know if you want to check it out.
Edit: I pressured the gold and food and camped its eco to finalize with a ram push.
hey drongo, i saw you select the long bows and the spearman, and you can just put your mouse and click on the spearman to de-select them from the selection, how do you do that? thank you!
Must have held down shift before clicking them.
Double resource collection is crazy
One problem I have is the A.I. drop a unnecessary amount of lumber and mining camps. Especially if there are multiple bots and length of time it can start lagging the game.
I also did notice that Nomad still has a problem with A.I. sometimes doing absolutely nothing.
This is great! One question though: why'd you change your main from China?
I also have to agree with others on this: making the AI cheat feels like a cheap change. Maybe the player base would rather wait and get better AI, than having a harder (cheating) AI. But what do I know :).
Great video again Drongo!
Chinese is a bit underpowered now i think, the dinasty unit upfront cost is too high, and tax is useless in late game since it need to be dropped in TC or imperial academy, and every decent player Will have many forward production building. Palace Guard is a weaker MAA.Nest of Bees perform worse against massed units than mangonel
It’s like the difficulty jumps in Age of Mythology xD easy to medium is a massive jump, and Titan is brutal :P
I had to go trade with Malian’s in order to beat AI hardest. Definitely gone way too far with these changes. AI hitting a 2 minute feudal is nuts
It took me like 10 trys to beat HRE Hardest with English. 7 tries with delhi. 1 try with ottoman(played a lot of ottomans). I am trying to beat Every hardest AI with each civ right now.
I beated this new hardest AI on a hybrid map where I could double dock deep fish boom. It wasn't easy though, the spam was real. I was Eng vs HRE
Hardest AI have double resource gathering
No way this is just a 10% eco boost!
I actually think having a cheating AI is fine for some extra challenge. I just wish they had added a higher difficulty level: "Easy, Intermediate, Hard, Hardest, Unfair" that sort of thing
IMPOSSIBLE is the right name
I think the play here is to survive until imperial. That way, once your both up against the pop, the resource imbalance is less significant and the player's superior micro can win the battles with now even numbers.
I think walling up the base ASAP and getting an archer mass with steeled arrow inside the palisade walls and then dropping down a keep as AI likes to suicide that. Then keep crawl towards AI base then finally finish it off.
its been 6-8 months since I've played aoe4, since around the time the new civs came out, and jesus the new hardest ai is brutal with that resource gathering buff. Kind of wish it was broken out into a "Legendary" difficulty setting, or maybe a sliding scale handicap was added as a new setting for ais.
Is it the case that people don't open wheel arrow any more? I recalled there was once 2-2-2 BO
the AI always gets the blacksmith upgrades! as soon as it ages up
i hope not, i have my tests of strenght to complete :(
(i cheese them anyway, black forest, and wall very close to their base so they can't expand lmao)
did all difficulty levels get an upgrade?
Beasty could not beat 2 of this new AI, before he would beat 7 just in a breeze.
He won't even beat a single Hardest AI in this. It's gone too far. Completely busted.
Do you still have that Brutal mod on??
I love the vidéo btw.
Next time when you see trade, please wall the trade posts, just to see the AI response.
As fun as this is to watch, I can't help but feel like what Relic has done here is lock out everybody but the top 2 per cent of players from ever having faction mastery. A conqueror 3 player cannot beat it, and I'm supposed to somehow do that to prove I know the faction?
Yea, 2x resource collection would do that. Relic can't write a simple civ randomizer bug free; no doubt they can't write a decent AI.
I feel better now, knowing that I can´t beat the new IA haha
If a conq 3 player can't beat the hardest AI , what hope is there for a lowly gold player like me...
The time has come: build stone walls in feudal age ! Feels like the only way to turtle into Imp and get the eco rolling before having a chance to crack this AI
I don't think that would work. I think late game will be impossible. They get 2x resources. Therefore even if they stop producing villagers at 100, they have the equivalent of 200 villagers of resources. (worse if you include trading etc)
Hardest ai should be renamed to skynet
I defeated pulling 6 english vills at the beginning on hideout. Maybe mongol towerush could be another alternative. Btw these kind of strats are the only way to win, otherwise the resourse cheat Will bring the AI so much ahead the more the game goes on
How is it even possible to get that much more resources, are they just giving the AI a bonus to resource gathering?
Maybe u need a dark age rush
I think tower rushing or some kind of dark age pressure might be the way to go against this but I almost feel like that defeats the purpose of this AI because it makes this AI unrealistically good I mean of course if your opponent uses cheats they'd be better than you
I think your right. When Drongo attacked the wood villagers and they barely even retreated, shows a large weakness. But there is only a small window where you can trade military favorably against the AI. Even if you kill 1.5x worth of units, unless you are actively killing their villagers, they will still replace their army quicker than you can kill it.
no dude this is BS. My French AI hit imperial at 5:40... 65 units in my base at 5:55...
Oh it’s hard alright
I feel like the 2x resource gathering from Hardest AI is just artificial difficulty. The raiding, defense and decision making of the new PUP alone is enough. But boosting resource gathering is just lazy.
I don't think this is a good way to approach the AI of this game.
Since when dropped this update qith the hardest AI?
It was damn too hard for me!
Lol just yesterday I decided to play the game again after a month because I've seen your videos about the huge rebalance of civs and got interested, and to warm up I played against AI in hardest difficulty and lost. I was thinking that I had worsened a lot but I guess it's just that AI is very good now.
I don't know which are the odds but I also did an english vs france game, I lasted around 45 min but I almost never could leave my base and ended up loosing too, I feel very identified with this video.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think this AI is only on the PUP/beta. I don't know if the AI has been improved on the standard game yet.
oh, you think or you know?
@@roberthiggins8234 its already live
@@LordSuiadan thats just the AI? Not the rest of the PUP updates? Or was this AI separate to the pup?
@@LordSuiadan Reading the AOE4 website, it makes it sound like the new AI is part of the pup. Which is the 'beta' branch, which is 'live'. But not part of the standard branch.
3:14 age up as French is just criminal. Damn you AI! 20:26 "look at these traders. Easy pickup for the Drong right here!".... trader survives on half health. Feels bad man lol. I TOTALLY want to see BeastyQT take on the Hardest A.I. I don't think he'll be able to beat it, unless he finds a pepega exploit like I did yesterday, when for some reason the Mongol Hardest AI never unpacked the ger and didn't make any units lol.
that Mongol thing happens when you change the value on the stone pile.
I reported this many times, not a slight sight of changing it
The hardest AI get two times of resources from villager
That is why you should push as fast as you can
If you cannot make AI get less villager you will lose the game
love to see anyone beat ai now lol without cheats
I swore I beat hardest abbasid with mongol tower rush a couple days ago when did the AI change kick in? is there any way to see that game?
If they review the recorded games they will see that the AI has an handicap: Gather resources faster. That's why we noobs can't beat him. Developers should follow the example of age of empires 2 DE, where the AI was vastly improved without cheating.
yes! much to far. everyone of my friends left right now, because we can’t play coop right now.
we tried to use an unpatched version of the game, but without patch we cant use multiplayer. its really a mess what happened right now and a step in the wrong direction for coop gamers.
Why not either play tteam Ranked where you will matched against even opponents (after 5-10 games, when the system found out your skill levvel, losing those games is normal) or just create a custom game and play against 5 or 6 hard AI's?
The patch is not even live, what the heck are you talking about?
@@athenus.f2822 i am the only ranked player of my friends. comprehensive gaming is cool, but not everyone likes it. so we have this tradition for years to play coop against ais in aoe - so no pressure for anybody just gaming and talking. but now there is no ai anymore for this kind of gaming - hard is to weak, hardest was perfect. and now its gone
@@Ilergete its live in germany since thursday evening. look at the patch notes in steam. but only the ai - every interesting feature is in the pup. some how i cant post the source link to steam db here. but yes, sadly the ai is released into the game without remorse.
Just try hard for now, I agree though the hardest is close to unplayable.
They gave the AI 2x resource gathering which is stupid. I want an AI that makes good decisions not cheats.
We're not in 2300 where A.I are intelligent.. There's a limit to how far you can push A.I.. Yes some additions can be done but it won't ever come close to an human. It's impossible. Having a faster gathering rate is innevitable for a harder challenge.
@@ACuteKitty Never heard of AlphaGo apparently.
I cannot for the life of me, beat the hardest difficulty AI. I am playing as the Ottomans, got as far as the castle age and then they have their way with me :(
Let's see Beasty AND ML against 7 Hardest of these AIs.... :)
AI with cheats is a garbage move.
I suspect that the key to beating the new hardest ai is not giving up once you're in a losing position (because you will eventually be in a losing position). It will provide a challenge, but it is still not very intelligent, something which you can exploit (especially in the late game). I played a nomad FFA with 3 AIs, one of them hardest difficulty. I was able to win, but the hardest AI built several wonders (all in the same spot, which wasn't that hard to reach) and there were a few times where my base got hit hard.
Won't work. They just continue to out produce you and your losing position gets reaffirmed and you end up wasting time.
I wanna see beastyqt fight the ai!
You can beat the Hardest AI in under 2 minutes on Nomad FYI 😆
They need “Hardest” and “Cheater”.
Get the new AI off food and it will fall apart pretty fast.
Does AI have reseources handicap?
This new hardest AI gathers resources at double the normal rate
its unplayable like that. they need to make this a hardcore or brutal mode type thing. hard isnt hard enough, and this just isnt any fun.
HRE rush castle relic spam MAA is relatively easy way to beat this, i've done it on my second try(see my channel), with English you can early wall turtle up into imp and slowly use keep and siege weapon to push forward (also see my channel)
wow the AI let you play 5 minutes without raiding you. the HRE ai or chinese ai is the best now i think.
chat gpt is skynet lol
its more like a new game mode :) try to live as long as possible.
As much as I like AoE4, I still believe Empire Earth Extended Edition is better and was ahead of it's time... would be great to see that game make a comeback nowadays with the great internet that is available.
problem is, you can't treat the AI like a human opponent. harassing, trying to make em panic, moving focus. It doesn't work. they can do everything at once lol
I'd honestly prefer if the last masteries were winning a 1v1 vs a real player than the hardest AI. I know I'll beat it eventually but the learning curve is very deceiving for people that haven't played age for the last 20 years.
They should name this cheat AI or inform the player this is extremely hard. Imagine a new player trying out the game and beat the AI by difficulty one by one and he reach the hardest AI that can beat a conquer. lol
I'm high Bronze, low Silver ranked. I don't stand a damn chance.
I hope they make a new setting like harder with an ai that doesn't cheat but is actually good. I think it's not gonna happen.....
Hey Drongo, I know you really pride yourself on base building, and you've even labeled yourself as OCD, so you must have a good reason for placing the council hall 1 tile away and misaligned with the town center. What is that reason?
You must be the hall monitor.
@@DandyChigginz I just want to know the strat if there is one, so I can improve my gameplay. Not trying to be some alignment police or something.
Bro I was win against 6 AI hardest now i can not win against 1 french AI hardest! AI plays just 1 TC. I don't know where the resources come from
the hardest IA change is crap, hate it when AI cheats, also it makes the masterships much more difficult for casual players. The Devs should rather introduce another higher difficulty setting above hardest AI, something like "supported AI" or even better make a separate setting for how much resources % advantage each player including AI gets. But this now, is the worst change of the coming patch.
Nah dude i am sliver and i have beaten French with ottomans by tower rush their gold and slowing their progression to age 2
It seems like there is obviously some sort of resource cheating. Like he gets 20 resources for every 12 you get. In SC2 the hardest AI got extra gas and minerals for every worker return.
they told us there is resource cheating my dude.... the question is only in what fashion
yeah the patch note mentioned this, 2x faster gathering rate IIRC
BeastyQT did it. Twice!
New AI very strong, not impossible to win