For some reason this movie never bored me. I thought it was *longer* than it needed to be, but for a movie that was half a courtroom drama and mostly a prision movie, it constantly held my attention because of the way Arthur increasingly tries to live up to his Joker image throughout the story, both in the name of his love of Lee and also to feel like he's in control again. To me, the musical numbers provided that relieving escapism were Arthur could find himself living a happy fantasy. They worked stylistically moreso than narratively, but to me they provided some much needed agility to the movie (for the most part) while also directly adressing the media's need for fetichizing violence and tragedy by portraying it as a glamorous spectacle. I loved the movie's meta design, thought the pacing was serviceable, the performances and production values were astonishing, and while the story isn't the most eventful or exciting, it does compliment and round up the themes of the first movie nicely. This duology was ultimately about how a broken society inadvertently created the myth of the joker at the expense of a neglected mental patient's life, and its as tragic, nihilistic and poignant a journey as I expected it to be.
I hated the movie because it told a bad story by not doing its protagonist justice. What the movie was not, however, was boring. It's most certainly entertaining and intriguing and I loved the weird usage of music. It was memorable but I just was extremely disappointed in the ending. I disagree with the story Todd Phillips chose to tell but even the story he chose could have been told much better if he focused on how different Joker's life was as a criminal. If he wanted to make a movie about the protagonist's downfall, you have to show the protagonist at the top and slowly tear him down.
Bro i think you are me. This is exactly how i felt watching this movie on a digital platform except i skipped the musical scenes 😂 i thought the musical scenes were boring other than that what you said.
@@mrjollyguy25 There's a review I found somewhere that said this story would've worked better as a trilogy capper. That's an interesting view I never considered.
@@Wierdo_g Fair enough hahahaha. I think more people will be willing to discover and assess the movie for what it is now that they have the chance to customize their viewing experience.
People were disappointed that Arthur did not continue the rampage they saw in the first film. This movie was brilliantly conceived. We see the disintegration of Arthur’s Joker. Phillips is a great filmmaker. In time this movie will become a classic.
Except that he was given free reign to make a movie about Batman's archnemisis, not make an arthouse movie and cheaply give origin to Chrisopher Nolan's Joker. Essentially he made a Joker movie for non DC fans. It's insulting.
I agree with most of your takes here. It's an artsy movie that people had certain expectations of how it should go. They were disappointed when it didn't go that way. You said at 11:55 about the musical sequences. I think they really showed the delusion of Fleck well. It made the audience feel it.The discomfort of it for us to understand it and on an emotional level what it would feel like for Fleck going through it. Not to mention they were usually shot very well and pretty to look at. Like a bizarro La La Land.
They wanted a power fantasy just like how Harley saw the joker what they got was a realistic interpretation of mental illness that clearly had hit way to close to home for some and they just can't accept that
It's a great movie, people just wanted Arthur to be someone he never was - an "intel hero" as you called him. It's a great commentary on fans who didn't get the first movie.
i watched the movie last night for the first time and 100% i agree with you about it being misunderstood , it's very thought provoking and to me it felt it was more of a character study than a musical that led up to the reveal of the real joker in the haunting ending scene .
Director: *makes a mentally ill chracter & slaps it onto a well-known, super charismatic villain IP* *the mentally ill incels like the super charismatic, mentally ill joker* Director: *shocked pikachu face*
@@anuszbizsergetokommentek2171sorry to burst your bubble of innocence but that's how society treats those who are mentally ill or downtrodden and just like society you demonize the victim just like them u fell for the societal trap u aren't a rebel but most clearly a puppet just as any politician or far right zealot
@@juampialarcon7116 everyone called Mr Morale and big steppers the same thing and now its "aRt" and "theRapY" or John Cena was the worst wrestler in 2000s, couldnt wrestle, the same promo every week, didnt take feuds seriously, he screamed on the mic like a mental patient, he buried talent. now he's considered a goat. nostalgia syndrome will work its magic
@@juampialarcon7116 its already happening Quren Tarantino has now called this movie a classic, and this movie just entered the box office the other day.
@@JoshPecks500lbDad The Super Cena gimmick is still trash. He was just a younger rehash of Hogan. He is a GOAT because of how much he sold, not because he was an amazing wrestler, same thing with Hogan. His mic work is undeniable (same as Hogan) and he was actually a superior wrestler than what he was portrayed as during his top dog days, but the main reason he is seen in a more favourable light nowadays is because the product has actually become far worse than what it used to be, so his mid 2000s run is seen with better appreciation. Nostalgia always plays a factor, but it is not enough to turn around a rabid majority of detractors. I feel like this film will become more respected, but will forever remain niche, because it is done to be like that by design.
You are not wrong at all. This movie is about how you should accept yourself and understand that all we want is to be loved. It's a deep idea that only people who suffered enough of reality can accept. I love that we are a minority that liked this. It shows me the difference of maturity in society.
Yeah, nothing better than showing how mature you are compared to others. Because they do not like the movie as much like you do. You guys are just special.
@@solitude6110 I don't know if I am more mature than others, but I know I have deeper feelings for arts, specifically music than others from the childhood (I sang in choirfor years). I also tend to spend more time to think about people's behaviour and I like to read about it. Maybe these are the reasons. Saying that, as I liked the story, songs were also all right on spot, I also wish Joker 2 had more emotionally stronger scenes. The movie was sad and dark, that is all.
Oh my god THANK YOU!! Finally someone understands the message of the movie. Ive been racking my head as to why no one else is getting this. Also i find it deeply concerning that people would rather see a 2 1/2 hour movie of a psycho murdering innocent people instead of a man going through a very interesting life journey. Arthur is a person with feelings but everyone in the movie (and the audience who hated the film) want him to be a mindless murderer
Except this isn't your typical joker, his killings in the first movie weren't really mindless since he basically killed the people that were mean to him in some way.
Todd: It's not about money… It's about sending a message. Btw I'm super glad this vid exists. I honestly liked this movie, didn't even find it boring. It's just not what people wanted.. If you don't like this film, the movie says it - “there's always a Joker.” Just have your favorite.
My head cannon is that the death of Joker was methaporical or was his psyche killing the victim personality of Arthur. The "psychopath" is the real Arthur and I believe that he was SA'd by the guards that night when they beat him in the washroom them assaulting him took away his individuality the real him, because before this he is developing and expressing the Joker as him even when faced with encounting his sexual trauma again he jokes to the guard if he will 'buy him a drink' but after they sa him he regress into his dual personality Arthur- The Victim in order to keep him sane in a way the Arthur personality is like his inner child as we were told in the court room he was SA'd as a child so him going through the trauma again at Arkham made him put on the persona of Arthur to feel safe. See it like this if he's damned when being the Joker (his real self) then his self defense mechanism is Arthur. I have more theories like the last scene of Harley wasn't real and perhaps even after the court was bombed that could have been his actual death bc he was the closest to the explosion and after the dust cleared, he was seemingly the only one in the court room. The guy he met with the Joker make-up outside the ruined court was the persona of Joker trying to keep him alive but Arthur ran to Harley to his old apartment which he confessed to her he hated, his defense mechanism made him attach to Harley bc if his real self The Joker hated that apartment nothing even Harley could bring him to return. I also theorize that the Harley we see in he last scene is actually dead and committed suicide in the apartment ,when Arthur declared the Joker was all an act (which isn't true, the goal of the self defense mechanism personality, Arthur Fleck- The Victim, is to keep himself in line with society my evidence is when The Victim 'died' he didn't fight the psychopath like how when faced with SA from the guards he at least retaliated and punched one. The victim didn't fight the psychopath but accepted the role society placed on him by still trying to walk to the guards even after being stabbed, Mury's last words to Joker was essentially if your are downtrodden or a victim run to cops notify them and Arthur Fleck is the one that idolized Mury while Joker is the one that pulled the trigger as he knew Mury made him weak)- I say this to say that Arthur meeting Harley again was him confront his loss of her and his Arkham "death" was the innocent part of Joker, the victim Arthur, being let go or dying by his true personality The Joker. My main evidence beside the crowd being abscence in the court is also after he confronts Harley again on the stairway the cops seemingly not only knows where he is but that he returned to the apartment, the cops wouldn't know where Arthur fled to for multiple reason including the fact there was assumed doppelgangers of Joker around Gotham dressing and wearing his make up anyone of them could have been mistaken for him so technically the cops wouldnt be able to find Arthur plus Harley rented his apartment if there's a new tenant why would he go back there so the cops behind him in that scene aren't real but is The Victim incarcerating himself by accepting not only was society sees him as but also what he believes what "he fucking deserves" I believe the psychopath that killed him was his true personality freeing Arthur from his slavery to the system and grief of lossing Harley. I would hope if there is a third movie for us to see Arthur or in this case the fully developed Joker to have the scars on his face that he carved. And for those who think the psychopath is Ledger's Joker he's not, the Gotham city in the Dark Knight is based in Chicago while the one in The Joker is said in the movie to be in New York also Thomas Wayne in the Joker looks nothing and acts nothing like the Thomas in the Nolan films unless it can be interpreted that Bruce had an idolized view of his father in the Nolan verse but that too much theory bc why would the directors of Joker 2 think that far. To conclude I believe that the psychopath that "killed" Arthur is Arthur and weither or not he died in the court bombing or is still alive Arthur Fleck- The Victim is dead. Also the movie seems heavily inspired by Fight Club and courtroom cases so you could also theory that Harley just like Marla is a representation of his Anima for those who don't know all men have a female aspect to their psychology and vice versa with all females so Harley may not have exist in the film and like Marla in Fight Club was there to guide there respective male counter parts ie Arthur and the Narrator to becoming who they really are. You could say that Harley was "born" or envolped by Arthur back as a child when he was SA'd or even when he found out he imagined his relationship with Sophie, or when Harley was fully developed when Arthur decided to killed his mother. I absolutely love this movie and just watched it an hour ago and have so many interpretation of whats happening in the film bc Arthur is an unreliable narrator. ps. Thanks for listening to my Ted-Talk🤡
I think this is a brilliant take on the movie and I agree it being a meta commentary. Films, and or other products in an economy, are a reflection of the consumer base. Bad movie era might imply a disoriented public consciousness and identity. Perhaps this movie will be important to the history of cinema and popular culture. Thank you for posting
yes and no, the songs lyrics are relevant to the plot, and hte standalone spectacle musical pieces work to show his fucked up perception of reality, he lived his life thru the tv, they do the same shit in the first film with him hallucinating stuff like having a gf or the more close, being in the Murray show. So broadway style musical pieces just make sense. you could remove a couple of the songs for sure to make the movie shorter cus its too long for what it has to tell.
Thanks for being brave enough to share your honest opinion and let the cards fall where they may. I think your video provides a place for a free exchange of ideas and opinions! Keep Fighting The Good Fight, Bro!
Okay, I'm going to offend everyone. After watching this movie, I realized that a sequel where Joker and Harley Quinn murdering people would just be plain boring and just ignore what the previous movie established. I strongly believe that this is a movie where what we ended up getting was actually the movie we were SUPPOSED to get and the general consensus is that they didn't wanted it. What people wanted would've been a movie that would've neglected the grounded realism and message the first movie set out. The musical sequences and all this other stuff is supposed to be bad because this is literally Arthur retreating to his imagination to avoid the reality that he is contending with. Unlike The Incredibles 2, the hatedom that this movie gets is on a whole other level where the very clear issue is that the real reason why this movie did so poorly is because of folks having an unrealistic expectation of this movie and maybe not really understanding what the first movie really was. I believe that this movie actually is supposed to be a direct continuation of where we last left Joker and this is supposed to be him continuing out schemes even after being detained. We see it play out and he pays dearly for it resulting in his death by an inmate. A taste of his own medicine. Now you can say that I'm wrong and that's fine. When time passes and people begin to see this movie in a different light, then who do you think really is the one is wrong? Just think about it.
Exactly! I’m so glad there are more people coming to this realization! I don’t think people actually understood this movie which is sad tbh. Nobody had the heart to get the meaning behind it they just wanted lame action with no deep meaning behind it.
Just watched it on streaming expecting a bad movie, and ended up thinking “why is this so hated?” Not the best movie ever by any means, but not a bad movie at all
All the genius thought process in the world doesn't matter if it results in a boring and disjointed movie, you can convey themes and ideas while being engrossing enough to keep the interest of the audience, these things are not mutually exclusive and the fact the movie has the former doesn't absolve it of lacking the latter. So congrats on proving that it is in fact a bad movie, not because it critiques its audience or the concept it works with, but because it fails to convey it in any meaningful way that could ever connect with an audience.
People aren't dumb for not liking a movie. I'm saying it was a movie made for no one. The opposite of a crowd-pleaser. It was too poetic for people that just wanted an evil clown movie, but it was too crass to be considered fine art. What I find concerning is the amount of people that have parroted the hyperbolic statement "Joker 2 is the worst film ever made".
Idk I like joker and being an empath watching the second one I absolutely loved it a lot. I’m rlly disappointed that not a lot of people get the meaning behind it.
It would be a nice message if the name of the movie wasn't joker, so there wouldn't be fans of a century long comics history behind it to become furious
The opening cartoon is key here. Arthur is the shadow, joker is the real him. At the end he isn't killed by another inmate, thats his joker psyche killing him. That psychopath was always behind arthur in prison, watching on, like his shadow.
Yes it is. I have no problems at all with how they portrayed the character. He's scum, he's no hero, he's exactly what the movie shows. The ending doesn't bother me either, although it comes from nowhere and it feels rushed. The problem with this movie is its pacing, it's a disaster. A movie with so little to tell but lasts 140 minutes. It's so boring, and the musical scenes disrupt the pace as well. Perhaps a more talented director could do something better out of it, but the movie as it is is trash, no way around it.
This movie does not tell you when he’s hallucinating like in the first one. It’s up to audience interpretation. There are multiple scenes that can be taken different ways towards the end.
This is one of those movies that will be appreciated later.
Месяц назад+14
At this point im gonna say. "YES YOU ARE ALL WRONG" Damn bootlickers following trends and hating a movie when they dont understand the themes. I came in the movie hearing the worst things about it, oh it sucked, oh its disappointing. And i was surprised the movie was so well made, and had pretty heavy themes and it even went deeper into arthurs state of mind than the first movie. All the idiots who downvoted this movie are dcu kiddy fans who wanted him to fight batman in the 2nd movie, when the first movie never intended to be a comic book movie at all. They were hopelessly pretending it was.
Todd Phillips managed to build on his own joker take enough for it to support its own movies without the need for a real enemy. That is hard, he managed to make a new Joker that not only works, it has depth, a back story with sprinkles of the batman universe. It was just an excuse to discuss what could make someone turn into "The Joker". The first movie broke me for how he struggles and how by the end his "acceptance" is not even for him but a message he didn't even intend when he killed people, he shields himself behind the Joker persona but just like the second movie shows, he was pretending
Tbh I kinda agree. It’s not as bad as everyone says though I get it. They went with an ambitious idea that could have worked had they crafted a much better story. But I still think it was a good flick despite the flaws.
So basically, subverting a fanboy audience so blatantly will not work, at least if that's the main point of your movie. The way people are talking about it reminds me of The Last Jedi; I liked (mostly) The Last Jedi but a lot of people just didn't. So if the commentary is too on point or obvious, especially if the story itself isn't extremely, extremely gripping (and very especially if the writing is lazy), the most invested viewers will hate it.
I don't normally enjoy comic book movies but I DO love long slow boring period dramas/horror movies and I also love musicals, so I might actually watch this 😂
hahaha I'm amazed you remember me 😁 I don't always comment but I always watch your videos...lovely stew as always! 🍲 Edit: I once made my friend watch "Skinimarink" and "I am the pretty thing that lives in the house" as a double feature, and he said it was like watching pant dry, but I was on the edge of my seat the whole time 😱 But as soon as there are a bunch of action sequences in a movie my brain tunes right out because I can't follow everything happening at that speed. I promise I'm not daft, it just feels like an assault on my senses that my brain can't cope with for some reason.
You're one of the OGs. That's hard to forget. Thanks for stickin around! That's pretty interesting; I don't know if I've ever known someone like that, but I can understand not wanting to be watching high-speed stuff at all times. Depends on the mood for me personally, but I don't ever really seek out action-centric movies.
I skipped some of the music parts because i really dont like musicals but other than that, the movie didnt bother me at all. I liked some scenes and the movie is beautifull to look at.
I think you are missing out on the musicals, at least I would recommend those where Arthur goes solo: they are very intimate and touching, they make you understand Fleck's motives better and care for him, thus highlighting the eventual heartbreak of his tragic end.
I hear where you’re coming from, but it was still bad. There are definite redeeming qualities but little that bring out the sheen sullied by the intent to spite the same audience it aimed to attract. The story was evidentially written to convey the director’s personal feelings on social issues rather than a compelling narrative about a beloved character, which is kind of a problem when the film’s title promises the latter. This was a glorified vanity project.
People need to look at this not as a dc project or anything what so ever to do with dc or the joker from dc. Yes it has slight tie ins to dc but It's more It's own movie inspired off of joker from dc aswell as other things. I really liked joker 2, also found it pretty sad and didn't mind the music at all, i enjoyed the scene in Arthurs head singing the joker is me.
I think you are giving this movie a lot more credit than it deserves. No, making a meta-commentary on how the "chud/incel" fanbase are wrong for sympathyzing with a character that was specifically design, by Todd's own words, to be a representation of the downtrodden and put down upon, is stupid and hypocritical. People don't view Joker as in some dual personality, they view him as a singular entity, someone who got screwed over in life repeatedly and lashed out against those that wronged him. He's an antihero at best and a villain at worst, but one that was written well with an equally compelling performance. That's why people liked him. Telling people that they were wrong to think that way, and then going out of your way to spend two and a half hours literally and metaphorically r*ping this character is objectively stupid. If this were a Harley Quinn movie and she had to experience the same nonsense in this movie that Arthur Fleck experienced, people would be crucifying Todd even more with how "sexist" his portrayl of Harley was, but because it's the Joker, a man, it's seen as daring and "subversive", because people are wrong for idolising or sympathizing with the "schizo incel clown". I am so sick and tired of these pretentious storytellers constantly pushing male characters down into the dirt for these offensively bad and misandrist storylines. I don't even mind a more realistic portrayl of Joker, I like the Killing Joke's take on his backstory, a lot of people do, but seeing Arthur Fleck being r*ped in that shower wasn't bold, daring, or even grounded. It was a dumb, unrealistic middle finger to the audience for daring to think the wrong opinions. And the big thing is, there are ways you could've made this movie work. Making a movie about the dangers of celebrity worship, and idolizing dangerous criminals or just general e-celebs by people who have privileged lives but want to feel "different" by being faux tortured could work, because there are people out there that are like that. But to do it in one of the most boring, pretentious, paper-thin sh*t plots I have ever seen doesn't make this movie worth it. It feels phoned in for a paycheck and to capitalize off the success of the first film. As the phrase goes, don't sh*t where you eat.
People go to the movies and watch films to escape their current reality. When the film is about the horrific story reality people seem to not like it. As their not able to escape their reality through the film
Blade Runner is boring and was a flop. Kubrick movies weren't popular. Metal Solid 2 was also unpopular, and it has elements analogous to Joker 2. I think Joker 2 was boring, as you said, and manipulative. It's more real ("a real movie about a real struggling human") than usual Hollywood movies. It didn't show some scenes suggested from the trailer. But I don't think that makes it bad. The Joker asked to stop singing and speak instead -- to stop the fantasy, live reality. After being said to give what the audience wants, the Joker was shot. It seems to say, subtly, some things that became true. I don't believe it's only a comment about itself and the Joker fans: It's a comment about people focusing their lives based on fantasy, low pleasures, memes, clichés -- i.e.: immaturity. But, though they think they're smarter than the system, they're very easily played like a fiddle. It's like the Brave New World.
@@rodrigoodonsalcedocisneros9266 I also noticed most people also criticize the movie as if the events happened, lacking the ability of abstraction to find messages. For instance, some people say Arthur was raped. Others say he wasn't. Fantasy is real in their minds. But I think the important thing is the Joker features were removed from Arthur and his attitude regressed to what we saw initially in the last movie. It's like viewers discussing if the spinning top in Inception was going to stop -- the director said it doesn't matter and focusing on it is missing the point. Many viewers also seem to want to see violence, revenge, one liners and a character succeed, even if he's an awful person. They don't want to be challenged and get receive something to thing about. They're like kids wanting to see things moving, have control and live in a fantasy. If they don't have what they want, they want revenge or someone to fail. That's like Lee. You're right.
People didn't get it at all. They took the ending literally. But if you think about it for more than 2 seconds, you realise the psychopath stabbing him was in fact his Joker side, murdering his Arthur Fleck side. It was in his head. Now he is free of his weaker side and free to decline.
I just watched it and had horrible expectations. I really liked it. I think it was a matter of crazy hype and expectation. I too expected it to be about how Joker became a crime boss. But I knew that wasn't the case before I watched. Once you get rid of what expect and watch the movie that it is without imposing what you think it should be, I think it was a good movie.
Ok so let me tell this. Now the film is released in ott. So watch it with English subtitles so that you will understand the meaning of songs and the situations that songs plays. Joker 2 is an Anti- joker film which tells that joker is just a mindset anybody can get it. It's not just Arthur fleck. This film deals with Arthur Fleck more than Joker. In the opening scene they snowed how Arthur & his shadow fighting to take over the character Joker. It's like Carl Jung's Psychoanalysis about Shadows, egos and Anima. People loved the fantasy more than the real Arthur fleck. People criticized the musical. But in reality Most of the Mentally ill patients deals with their self with Dance, songs and drawings. Joker does everything. Even he draws in courtroom. And the dance he did in Joker 1 bathroom is different from dances in joker 2. The dance in joker 1 bathroom is calm and slow because he is drowning into the madness joker and accepted joker as his reality. That's why you see the Same scene in Joker 2 also where in the end of the scene he washes away his makeups (Not included in joker 1). This proves.. Arthur doesn't want to be joker no more. Even in the end they showed Arthur running in the same streets in joker 1. Sometimes musical will tell alot than Having dialogues. Because Mental ill patients can't convey their emotions like normal people. If they can actually conveys their emotions like us then there is no point of getting confusing about our shadow personality. In the end people loved the joker but Arthur himself disowned the joker then people got mad. The other mentally ill persons seen joker as saviour too.. That's why in climax Arthur fleck got killed and The killer took over the Identity of joker. This film is deep in psychoanalysis, Politics, Psychiatric institutions, Judiciary, and Most importantly The Populist mindset of the masses. I give this film 8/10. I reduced 2 points because I expected the Tone of film would beike joker 1 (Gritty). I hope the admin would see this and pin.
Well, personally I'm glad to - finally - see a 'review' of Joker 2 that doesn't just knock the movie.. To be honest, from everything I'd heard about Joker 2 AND the trailers of it I'd seen, PRIOR it's release, I'd nonetheless still wanted to watch this film in full.. then I heard, read, and saw, all the adverse reviews about it and so was put off perhaps even WANTING to watch it, anymore.. Like I say, though.. PERHAPS.. as, ultimately, what makes the negative (re-)views of this movie any more valid than my own (or anyone else's) until we've actually watched it for ourselves?.. (So, anyway, thanks, at least, for giving me more of a reason again to want to watch it.. and see & make for MYSELF what I will of it!).... 💃🕺🎬.. 👍
I don't like musicals But i like this movie, I love old songs like the ones in the movie, the interpretations where great, but most importantly, I hate musicals, because they use any excuse to sing and its usually super jarring, this movie isn't, it wasn't jarring at all, not only that, the songs are REALLY important for the character development and plot of the movie, anyone watching it dubbed ot their language and not understanding the songs because they are in english, will not understand a bunch of parts of the movie. The musical parts are a complement, i don't know how to describe it, its almost as if its an anti musical because the songs aren't bad, they aren't annoying and they are greatly implemented into the plot, they don't feel "unrealistic" most of the time they happen they happen in a room where people don't join into him singing like some disney movie, they just look at him, a bunch of times it happens for real and sometimes just his head. Arthur being someone who's father figure is the tv and entertainment industry, it just makes sense that he makes up some broadway show inside his head to cope, like someone else said, some mentally ill patients draw, sing and dance to cope, and he does ALL OF THE ABOVE, he is a mentally unwell man, HOW DO YOU EXPECT HIM TO SEE REALITY LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, he isn't JOKER from the COMICS, he is JOKER from the FILM JOKER, you shouldn't go into a SEQUEL of a movie that didn't follow the """""""cannon""""""" expecting to see those things in it. This is the deepest joker interpretation that we have gotten in the last like 10 years becuase he is a human, not a cartoon villian.
I eventually came around to it, i don't like the ending still but it looks nice, the acting is great, i like how the first movie is about how society abuses the mentally ill and this one is about how society exploits the mentally ill, i like harly manipulating joker in this that was really smart idea, there are alot of really great moments and i feel bad hating it as much as i did when i first saw it its a 6.5 out of 10 but we can all agree that ending is bad really really bad
Dude, I want to thank you. I've just watched dozens of reviews bagging this movie and apart from yours and Quentin Tarantino's comments, there has been no one that has tried to look at it from a different perspective. I actually appreciate it now but I still feel pretty ripped off by the fact that at no point did Arthur 'get one over' on ANYONE, not even the prison guards. He was just a sad, pathetic loser and then he got murdered. Pretty bleak.
Awesome, man. Glad I could present a different perspective. I myself felt pretty validated when I saw Tarantino's comments about the thing. And yes. Undeniably very bleak.
So, it is just me that noticied that she NEVER EVER VISITED THE JOKER in the solitary? There is no such thing as visitation on solitary, they never did sex. C'mon people... be smart, it was an allucination. The guy is a virgin incel.
Still think it's bad. I think, for the most cases, the main idea or message couldn't be bad, it's always about the execution and this film has weak execution(competent nevertheless). Most people understood what this movie is about, they just express their opinion through the prism of disappointment and boredom.
A lot of folks went in expecting a comic book movie. This isn't about comic books! There are deeply significant and compelling truths about modern pop culture being explored in this movie. We take these sad people like Arthur Fleck and only pay attention to them when they do something horrendous. Before that they are nobodies. They are forsaken and ignored. We make them into these megastars after they take multiple lives. The one who comes to mind is Jeffrey Dahmer because so many wrongly worship him. Despite their infamy they do not ever get to experience normalcy. It is basically a fantasy and their reality is abysmal. Psychologically what is going on? Why is this phenomena so prevelant? Then looked what happened at the end of Joker Deux! Arthur becomes the victim of another maniac who then adopts his persona. So the cycle repeats. Arthur rediscovers his humanity the night he is assaulted and the guards do in Ricky. Then he gets rejected by the one he loves for being human and not acting like a maniac.
It’s easier to to make a movie people people don’t like than one people do. I don’t consider people disliking it to prove anything. I don’t find making a movie with no mass market appeal that interesting, even if it’s done by keeping the parts of the movie central to its themes and intended meaning, while removing superficial qualities that contribute to its wide appeal. I see what you mean basically but it doesn’t actually make me like it a lot more.
@ it just makes me think of a lot of modern art. It falls into the broad “no you don’t get it, it’s bad on purpose” archetype. The fact that the viewing public doesn’t want the deep version of the movie is not a shock to me. It doesn’t surprise me. So making it sad instead of exciting, and spelling out that the MC isn’t an aspirational figure, and then having people not like it just seems like a pointless exercise. To me it just makes me think, the way you pointed out, that If the branding hadn’t been there, and if incels hadn’t gone “literally me” then nobody would have watched the first movie either. It makes me think of like the Swiss guy who dug a big hole through the concrete of a gallery for a quarter million dollars. It makes me think of take the money and run. Most modern art can be bought and sold and therefore used to launder money, but both of those are in a similar vein where taking the money and then making something that won’t make the money back is the point. Of the three take the money and run is just more striking of a story. And none of them are that striking as a finished product to me. I enjoy them much better as a story of getting people to pay you a bunch of money to make something most people don’t want. The fact that kind of story the movies are meant to tell doesn’t appeal to the general public is obvious to me. And I guess I may just be the general public. It’s funny that a guy dug a big hole for a ton of money. It’s funny that guy tried to submit a blank canvas for slightly less but still a good amount of money. It’s funny that the this movie’s budget was justified by the previous film that people only liked because they misunderstood it, and then the new one used that budget to clear up the misunderstandings and so people didn’t like it and it made no money. Pretty funny. But I’m not necessarily gonna go look at the hole or the empty canvas or this film and go “I am enjoying engaging with this”
I'm being reminded of Piero Manzoni's "merda d'artista". With enough "meta" commentary, you can literally sell canned shit to idiots, and raise the price when the can starts leaking. A boring musical with poorly arranged and poorly executed famous songs banking on the fame of a successful existing IP is not "genius". It's a cashgrab. Beyond the poor execution and poor choice (since apparently "creating" new music for more than one song is an insurmountable task), defending the story is kind of like defending the last season of game of Thrones - yeah... you could defend the end as an interesting conclusion, but then you really should have written a story that lead up to that. If the whole point of this Joker is being somewhat grounded in a realistic world, maybe don't have magical interventions. Maybe don't have a judge allow this "symbol" to be dressed as Joker in court. Maybe don't have the security be so poor after he's incited Giant riots. Maybe don't have this frail body be fine after being beaten or after having an explosion a few meters away. Maybe don't have him join a choir. Maybe don't have a random wealthy woman there. Maybe don't have her be able to easily start a giant fire out of nothing. Maybe don't make a character who's way too empathic to be a guard, and then once you made that silly choice, maybe don't suddenly turn him into a racist... Maybe just don't make this film
Does it really matter why Todd made such a horrible film when deciding whether it’s a good film or not? It’s a bad film. The reasons are interesting but the outcome is the same
It 100 percent feels like a disrespectful taken to make first movie fans mad. I don’t care about the message the movie was saying or the artistic representation. It as a standalone movie is BAD. It as a sequel to one of the best movies I have ever watched is TERRIBLE. We were cheated out of a good sequel where he and Harley go on a chaotic crime spree but instead we have court room drama that feels worthless, joker getting assaulted, then eventually murder we by the real one. Everyone, do NOT go see this movie. Legitimately one of the few movies to make me vocally upset
If all you want is a joker killing spree go watch all the countless interpretations of the joker in film and comic books where he does just that. This is not that story and that’s a great thing. What we got was probably the most original and unique sequel ever.
@ yeah, how good does that original and uniqueness taste???? It’s boring and not entertaining, and joker character already went through his arc in first movie, this entire 2nd movie is nothing but a waste of time and I’m glad it’s bombing so hard
It sucks people hate it. I agree that it did what it wanted to really well in terms of proving it’s point using the audience instead of the movie itself. I think it’s a move some people find pretentious and reminds me of how people are just barely coming around to The Last of Us 2. Very similar vibes here
This movie shitted on what the original stood for and even retconned some things in the original ending. It’s basically a middle finger to all of the people who enjoyed the original film. It’s such a shame.
@lilkingg82 Other comment has a point. What the hell are you on about with the ominous touting? The movie is hated right now already. This WAS the worst time for this video. I don't think there's any chance people are gonna hate the movie even more with time.
@@lilkingg82Let me make it really simple for you, as you didn't seem to understand the first time. He was asking you to elaborate on the point of your comment. Not for you to repeat it word for word.
With those critical thinking skills, I hope you don't vote lol. I don't care who you vote for, past, present or future. I just think with such a lack of critical thinking faculties, and such a single mindedness, you're better off not voting. Or if you do, just dip your hand in a hat and pull out a name 🤷♂️
I don't know, man. I don't think it's fair to be making absolute statements like that, especially in regards to it being "about the joker and the universe tied to it".
@ yea it is. It’s the first movie since saving private ryan where I personally heard of multiple people walking out of the theatre because it was so cringe
The movie sucks you’re not deep bro . The joker is a comic book character that fights a guy in a bat costume . If Todd doesn’t like DC should have not made the movie simple .
@ThePartyyChat This may be the most braindead comment I've received on this video yet, but what else can you expect from someone with a channel called "the men are talking podcast" and a profile picture of AI generated mush? Get your head out your own ass. To use your own rhetoric against you... I'm a smart fella, you're a fart smella
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Fans felt betrayed by this movie like how the people felt betrayed by Arthur because he cut off the joker.
For some reason this movie never bored me. I thought it was *longer* than it needed to be, but for a movie that was half a courtroom drama and mostly a prision movie, it constantly held my attention because of the way Arthur increasingly tries to live up to his Joker image throughout the story, both in the name of his love of Lee and also to feel like he's in control again.
To me, the musical numbers provided that relieving escapism were Arthur could find himself living a happy fantasy. They worked stylistically moreso than narratively, but to me they provided some much needed agility to the movie (for the most part) while also directly adressing the media's need for fetichizing violence and tragedy by portraying it as a glamorous spectacle.
I loved the movie's meta design, thought the pacing was serviceable, the performances and production values were astonishing, and while the story isn't the most eventful or exciting, it does compliment and round up the themes of the first movie nicely. This duology was ultimately about how a broken society inadvertently created the myth of the joker at the expense of a neglected mental patient's life, and its as tragic, nihilistic and poignant a journey as I expected it to be.
Damn. Well-said, man. Beautiful stuff.
I hated the movie because it told a bad story by not doing its protagonist justice.
What the movie was not, however, was boring. It's most certainly entertaining and intriguing and I loved the weird usage of music. It was memorable but I just was extremely disappointed in the ending.
I disagree with the story Todd Phillips chose to tell but even the story he chose could have been told much better if he focused on how different Joker's life was as a criminal. If he wanted to make a movie about the protagonist's downfall, you have to show the protagonist at the top and slowly tear him down.
Bro i think you are me. This is exactly how i felt watching this movie on a digital platform except i skipped the musical scenes 😂 i thought the musical scenes were boring other than that what you said.
@@mrjollyguy25 There's a review I found somewhere that said this story would've worked better as a trilogy capper. That's an interesting view I never considered.
@@Wierdo_g Fair enough hahahaha. I think more people will be willing to discover and assess the movie for what it is now that they have the chance to customize their viewing experience.
People were disappointed that Arthur did not continue the rampage they saw in the first film. This movie was brilliantly conceived. We see the disintegration of Arthur’s Joker. Phillips is a great filmmaker. In time this movie will become a classic.
Except that he was given free reign to make a movie about Batman's archnemisis, not make an arthouse movie and cheaply give origin to Chrisopher Nolan's Joker. Essentially he made a Joker movie for non DC fans.
It's insulting.
@@maxigol1977It's an abomination
@@maxigol1977 ☠️
"You wouldn't get it!"
I agree with most of your takes here. It's an artsy movie that people had certain expectations of how it should go. They were disappointed when it didn't go that way. You said at 11:55 about the musical sequences. I think they really showed the delusion of Fleck well. It made the audience feel it.The discomfort of it for us to understand it and on an emotional level what it would feel like for Fleck going through it. Not to mention they were usually shot very well and pretty to look at. Like a bizarro La La Land.
They wanted a power fantasy just like how Harley saw the joker what they got was a realistic interpretation of mental illness that clearly had hit way to close to home for some and they just can't accept that
"You'll never catch me bat- hey why are you unzipping your pants?"
It's a great movie, people just wanted Arthur to be someone he never was - an "intel hero" as you called him. It's a great commentary on fans who didn't get the first movie.
Happy 50th birthday Joaquin.
i watched the movie last night for the first time and 100% i agree with you about it being misunderstood , it's very thought provoking and to me it felt it was more of a character study than a musical that led up to the reveal of the real joker in the haunting ending scene .
I’m mixed on it, I’m glad you enjoyed it
Director: *makes a mentally ill chracter & slaps it onto a well-known, super charismatic villain IP*
*the mentally ill incels like the super charismatic, mentally ill joker*
Director: *shocked pikachu face*
So he makes an another movie about phisically, mentally and s*exually abusing that said mentally ill character.
@@anuszbizsergetokommentek2171sorry to burst your bubble of innocence but that's how society treats those who are mentally ill or downtrodden and just like society you demonize the victim just like them u fell for the societal trap u aren't a rebel but most clearly a puppet just as any politician or far right zealot
I loved the film
Once nostalgia syndrome kicks in, this movie will be worshipped like a religion.
Some people seem to think so, but I don't know if I'm that convinced.
Nah the movie is trash
@@juampialarcon7116 everyone called Mr Morale and big steppers the same thing and now its "aRt" and "theRapY"
or John Cena was the worst wrestler in 2000s, couldnt wrestle, the same promo every week, didnt take feuds seriously, he screamed on the mic like a mental patient, he buried talent.
now he's considered a goat.
nostalgia syndrome will work its magic
@@juampialarcon7116 its already happening
Quren Tarantino has now called this movie a classic, and this movie just entered the box office the other day.
@@JoshPecks500lbDad The Super Cena gimmick is still trash. He was just a younger rehash of Hogan.
He is a GOAT because of how much he sold, not because he was an amazing wrestler, same thing with Hogan.
His mic work is undeniable (same as Hogan) and he was actually a superior wrestler than what he was portrayed as during his top dog days, but the main reason he is seen in a more favourable light nowadays is because the product has actually become far worse than what it used to be, so his mid 2000s run is seen with better appreciation.
Nostalgia always plays a factor, but it is not enough to turn around a rabid majority of detractors. I feel like this film will become more respected, but will forever remain niche, because it is done to be like that by design.
I enjoyed watching this move, the story, music, messages given and I am planning to see it again. I am not a fan of THE Joker, just to add.
You are not wrong at all. This movie is about how you should accept yourself and understand that all we want is to be loved. It's a deep idea that only people who suffered enough of reality can accept. I love that we are a minority that liked this. It shows me the difference of maturity in society.
Yeah, nothing better than showing how mature you are compared to others. Because they do not like the movie as much like you do. You guys are just special.
@@KaiAl-d8o ❤
@@solitude6110 I don't know if I am more mature than others, but I know I have deeper feelings for arts, specifically music than others from the childhood (I sang in choirfor years). I also tend to spend more time to think about people's behaviour and I like to read about it. Maybe these are the reasons. Saying that, as I liked the story, songs were also all right on spot, I also wish Joker 2 had more emotionally stronger scenes. The movie was sad and dark, that is all.
@@milenailic1437yikes.
Oh my god THANK YOU!! Finally someone understands the message of the movie. Ive been racking my head as to why no one else is getting this. Also i find it deeply concerning that people would rather see a 2 1/2 hour movie of a psycho murdering innocent people instead of a man going through a very interesting life journey. Arthur is a person with feelings but everyone in the movie (and the audience who hated the film) want him to be a mindless murderer
expect joker is kinda a mindless monster?
Except this isn't your typical joker, his killings in the first movie weren't really mindless since he basically killed the people that were mean to him in some way.
@@sammymartello Where was this complaint with the first movie, duh???
@@msamil679 it was a joker origin, of course he was not gonna act like joker most of the film
@@sammymartello I honestly don't see any DC "joker" in the first film.
Todd: It's not about money… It's about sending a message.
Btw I'm super glad this vid exists. I honestly liked this movie, didn't even find it boring. It's just not what people wanted.. If you don't like this film, the movie says it - “there's always a Joker.” Just have your favorite.
… and don't shit on other versions. The reason why this movie failed was the exaggerated hate. 😢
People like different things... For me, this was a complicated endeavor, but one that definitely needed a lot of afterthought to really click.
My head cannon is that the death of Joker was methaporical or was his psyche killing the victim personality of Arthur. The "psychopath" is the real Arthur and I believe that he was SA'd by the guards that night when they beat him in the washroom them assaulting him took away his individuality the real him, because before this he is developing and expressing the Joker as him even when faced with encounting his sexual trauma again he jokes to the guard if he will 'buy him a drink' but after they sa him he regress into his dual personality Arthur- The Victim in order to keep him sane in a way the Arthur personality is like his inner child as we were told in the court room he was SA'd as a child so him going through the trauma again at Arkham made him put on the persona of Arthur to feel safe. See it like this if he's damned when being the Joker (his real self) then his self defense mechanism is Arthur. I have more theories like the last scene of Harley wasn't real and perhaps even after the court was bombed that could have been his actual death bc he was the closest to the explosion and after the dust cleared, he was seemingly the only one in the court room. The guy he met with the Joker make-up outside the ruined court was the persona of Joker trying to keep him alive but Arthur ran to Harley to his old apartment which he confessed to her he hated, his defense mechanism made him attach to Harley bc if his real self The Joker hated that apartment nothing even Harley could bring him to return. I also theorize that the Harley we see in he last scene is actually dead and committed suicide in the apartment ,when Arthur declared the Joker was all an act (which isn't true, the goal of the self defense mechanism personality, Arthur Fleck- The Victim, is to keep himself in line with society my evidence is when The Victim 'died' he didn't fight the psychopath like how when faced with SA from the guards he at least retaliated and punched one. The victim didn't fight the psychopath but accepted the role society placed on him by still trying to walk to the guards even after being stabbed, Mury's last words to Joker was essentially if your are downtrodden or a victim run to cops notify them and Arthur Fleck is the one that idolized Mury while Joker is the one that pulled the trigger as he knew Mury made him weak)- I say this to say that Arthur meeting Harley again was him confront his loss of her and his Arkham "death" was the innocent part of Joker, the victim Arthur, being let go or dying by his true personality The Joker. My main evidence beside the crowd being abscence in the court is also after he confronts Harley again on the stairway the cops seemingly not only knows where he is but that he returned to the apartment, the cops wouldn't know where Arthur fled to for multiple reason including the fact there was assumed doppelgangers of Joker around Gotham dressing and wearing his make up anyone of them could have been mistaken for him so technically the cops wouldnt be able to find Arthur plus Harley rented his apartment if there's a new tenant why would he go back there so the cops behind him in that scene aren't real but is The Victim incarcerating himself by accepting not only was society sees him as but also what he believes what "he fucking deserves" I believe the psychopath that killed him was his true personality freeing Arthur from his slavery to the system and grief of lossing Harley.
I would hope if there is a third movie for us to see Arthur or in this case the fully developed Joker to have the scars on his face that he carved. And for those who think the psychopath is Ledger's Joker he's not, the Gotham city in the Dark Knight is based in Chicago while the one in The Joker is said in the movie to be in New York also Thomas Wayne in the Joker looks nothing and acts nothing like the Thomas in the Nolan films unless it can be interpreted that Bruce had an idolized view of his father in the Nolan verse but that too much theory bc why would the directors of Joker 2 think that far. To conclude I believe that the psychopath that "killed" Arthur is Arthur and weither or not he died in the court bombing or is still alive Arthur Fleck- The Victim is dead.
Also the movie seems heavily inspired by Fight Club and courtroom cases so you could also theory that Harley just like Marla is a representation of his Anima for those who don't know all men have a female aspect to their psychology and vice versa with all females so Harley may not have exist in the film and like Marla in Fight Club was there to guide there respective male counter parts ie Arthur and the Narrator to becoming who they really are. You could say that Harley was "born" or envolped by Arthur back as a child when he was SA'd or even when he found out he imagined his relationship with Sophie, or when Harley was fully developed when Arthur decided to killed his mother. I absolutely love this movie and just watched it an hour ago and have so many interpretation of whats happening in the film bc Arthur is an unreliable narrator.
ps. Thanks for listening to my Ted-Talk🤡
I think this is a brilliant take on the movie and I agree it being a meta commentary. Films, and or other products in an economy, are a reflection of the consumer base. Bad movie era might imply a disoriented public consciousness and identity. Perhaps this movie will be important to the history of cinema and popular culture. Thank you for posting
Well said, man. Thanks!
Couldnt this movie show this message without being a musical?, this movie would be 50% better if this movie wasnt a musical
yes and no, the songs lyrics are relevant to the plot, and hte standalone spectacle musical pieces work to show his fucked up perception of reality, he lived his life thru the tv, they do the same shit in the first film with him hallucinating stuff like having a gf or the more close, being in the Murray show. So broadway style musical pieces just make sense.
you could remove a couple of the songs for sure to make the movie shorter cus its too long for what it has to tell.
Thanks for being brave enough to share your honest opinion and let the cards fall where they may. I think your video provides a place for a free exchange of ideas and opinions! Keep Fighting The Good Fight, Bro!
Thanks a ton, man! You give me too much credit 😅
Haven't been seeing you around much lately. You doin good?
@ Thanks, yea doing good 👍 appreciate it.
Okay, I'm going to offend everyone. After watching this movie, I realized that a sequel where Joker and Harley Quinn murdering people would just be plain boring and just ignore what the previous movie established. I strongly believe that this is a movie where what we ended up getting was actually the movie we were SUPPOSED to get and the general consensus is that they didn't wanted it. What people wanted would've been a movie that would've neglected the grounded realism and message the first movie set out.
The musical sequences and all this other stuff is supposed to be bad because this is literally Arthur retreating to his imagination to avoid the reality that he is contending with. Unlike The Incredibles 2, the hatedom that this movie gets is on a whole other level where the very clear issue is that the real reason why this movie did so poorly is because of folks having an unrealistic expectation of this movie and maybe not really understanding what the first movie really was.
I believe that this movie actually is supposed to be a direct continuation of where we last left Joker and this is supposed to be him continuing out schemes even after being detained. We see it play out and he pays dearly for it resulting in his death by an inmate. A taste of his own medicine.
Now you can say that I'm wrong and that's fine. When time passes and people begin to see this movie in a different light, then who do you think really is the one is wrong? Just think about it.
Exactly! I’m so glad there are more people coming to this realization! I don’t think people actually understood this movie which is sad tbh. Nobody had the heart to get the meaning behind it they just wanted lame action with no deep meaning behind it.
It also have psychological meaning, if you look at it as a jungian. For the phrases like persona or shadow
Just watched it on streaming expecting a bad movie, and ended up thinking “why is this so hated?” Not the best movie ever by any means, but not a bad movie at all
I still thought this movie was bad but I still respect your opinion
Agree to disagree, then. I appreciate you being a reasonable commenter.
I don't respect this very bad, pseudo-intellectual take.
@@mikewilliams6025right, cus ur like Joker’s followers and Lee in this film.
All the genius thought process in the world doesn't matter if it results in a boring and disjointed movie, you can convey themes and ideas while being engrossing enough to keep the interest of the audience, these things are not mutually exclusive and the fact the movie has the former doesn't absolve it of lacking the latter. So congrats on proving that it is in fact a bad movie, not because it critiques its audience or the concept it works with, but because it fails to convey it in any meaningful way that could ever connect with an audience.
You bring up some good points but I disagree with your final conclusion
People aren't dumb for not liking a movie. I'm saying it was a movie made for no one. The opposite of a crowd-pleaser. It was too poetic for people that just wanted an evil clown movie, but it was too crass to be considered fine art. What I find concerning is the amount of people that have parroted the hyperbolic statement "Joker 2 is the worst film ever made".
Idk I like joker and being an empath watching the second one I absolutely loved it a lot. I’m rlly disappointed that not a lot of people get the meaning behind it.
This was a weird and interesting movie. I respect Todd Phillips for the message he created in this movie.
It would be a nice message if the name of the movie wasn't joker, so there wouldn't be fans of a century long comics history behind it to become furious
The opening cartoon is key here. Arthur is the shadow, joker is the real him. At the end he isn't killed by another inmate, thats his joker psyche killing him. That psychopath was always behind arthur in prison, watching on, like his shadow.
Yes it is. I have no problems at all with how they portrayed the character. He's scum, he's no hero, he's exactly what the movie shows. The ending doesn't bother me either, although it comes from nowhere and it feels rushed.
The problem with this movie is its pacing, it's a disaster. A movie with so little to tell but lasts 140 minutes. It's so boring, and the musical scenes disrupt the pace as well. Perhaps a more talented director could do something better out of it, but the movie as it is is trash, no way around it.
I liked it a lot
This movie does not tell you when he’s hallucinating like in the first one. It’s up to audience interpretation. There are multiple scenes that can be taken different ways towards the end.
Exactly. The ending was in his head. The Joker side murdering the Arthur side. Ready to be adored and idolised by Harley.
This is one of those movies that will be appreciated later.
At this point im gonna say. "YES YOU ARE ALL WRONG"
Damn bootlickers following trends and hating a movie when they dont understand the themes. I came in the movie hearing the worst things about it, oh it sucked, oh its disappointing. And i was surprised the movie was so well made, and had pretty heavy themes and it even went deeper into arthurs state of mind than the first movie.
All the idiots who downvoted this movie are dcu kiddy fans who wanted him to fight batman in the 2nd movie, when the first movie never intended to be a comic book movie at all. They were hopelessly pretending it was.
Same. All I heard about this movie was that it's "trash". Stupid people.
Todd Phillips managed to build on his own joker take enough for it to support its own movies without the need for a real enemy. That is hard, he managed to make a new Joker that not only works, it has depth, a back story with sprinkles of the batman universe. It was just an excuse to discuss what could make someone turn into "The Joker". The first movie broke me for how he struggles and how by the end his "acceptance" is not even for him but a message he didn't even intend when he killed people, he shields himself behind the Joker persona but just like the second movie shows, he was pretending
Tbh I kinda agree. It’s not as bad as everyone says though I get it. They went with an ambitious idea that could have worked had they crafted a much better story. But I still think it was a good flick despite the flaws.
So basically, subverting a fanboy audience so blatantly will not work, at least if that's the main point of your movie. The way people are talking about it reminds me of The Last Jedi; I liked (mostly) The Last Jedi but a lot of people just didn't. So if the commentary is too on point or obvious, especially if the story itself isn't extremely, extremely gripping (and very especially if the writing is lazy), the most invested viewers will hate it.
I don't normally enjoy comic book movies but I DO love long slow boring period dramas/horror movies and I also love musicals, so I might actually watch this 😂
Eyy. If you do, let me know in a comment on a future video. Good to see you here again, btw!
hahaha I'm amazed you remember me 😁 I don't always comment but I always watch your videos...lovely stew as always! 🍲
Edit: I once made my friend watch "Skinimarink" and "I am the pretty thing that lives in the house" as a double feature, and he said it was like watching pant dry, but I was on the edge of my seat the whole time 😱 But as soon as there are a bunch of action sequences in a movie my brain tunes right out because I can't follow everything happening at that speed. I promise I'm not daft, it just feels like an assault on my senses that my brain can't cope with for some reason.
You're one of the OGs. That's hard to forget. Thanks for stickin around!
That's pretty interesting; I don't know if I've ever known someone like that, but I can understand not wanting to be watching high-speed stuff at all times. Depends on the mood for me personally, but I don't ever really seek out action-centric movies.
I skipped some of the music parts because i really dont like musicals but other than that, the movie didnt bother me at all. I liked some scenes and the movie is beautifull to look at.
I think you are missing out on the musicals, at least I would recommend those where Arthur goes solo: they are very intimate and touching, they make you understand Fleck's motives better and care for him, thus highlighting the eventual heartbreak of his tragic end.
@@rodrigoodonsalcedocisneros9266 yeah you're right,might look at those parts again!
I hear where you’re coming from, but it was still bad. There are definite redeeming qualities but little that bring out the sheen sullied by the intent to spite the same audience it aimed to attract.
The story was evidentially written to convey the director’s personal feelings on social issues rather than a compelling narrative about a beloved character, which is kind of a problem when the film’s title promises the latter. This was a glorified vanity project.
People need to look at this not as a dc project or anything what so ever to do with dc or the joker from dc. Yes it has slight tie ins to dc but It's more It's own movie inspired off of joker from dc aswell as other things. I really liked joker 2, also found it pretty sad and didn't mind the music at all, i enjoyed the scene in Arthurs head singing the joker is me.
i liked how it pissed off joker fanboys.
More like Joker Poo.
I think you are giving this movie a lot more credit than it deserves. No, making a meta-commentary on how the "chud/incel" fanbase are wrong for sympathyzing with a character that was specifically design, by Todd's own words, to be a representation of the downtrodden and put down upon, is stupid and hypocritical. People don't view Joker as in some dual personality, they view him as a singular entity, someone who got screwed over in life repeatedly and lashed out against those that wronged him. He's an antihero at best and a villain at worst, but one that was written well with an equally compelling performance. That's why people liked him.
Telling people that they were wrong to think that way, and then going out of your way to spend two and a half hours literally and metaphorically r*ping this character is objectively stupid. If this were a Harley Quinn movie and she had to experience the same nonsense in this movie that Arthur Fleck experienced, people would be crucifying Todd even more with how "sexist" his portrayl of Harley was, but because it's the Joker, a man, it's seen as daring and "subversive", because people are wrong for idolising or sympathizing with the "schizo incel clown". I am so sick and tired of these pretentious storytellers constantly pushing male characters down into the dirt for these offensively bad and misandrist storylines. I don't even mind a more realistic portrayl of Joker, I like the Killing Joke's take on his backstory, a lot of people do, but seeing Arthur Fleck being r*ped in that shower wasn't bold, daring, or even grounded. It was a dumb, unrealistic middle finger to the audience for daring to think the wrong opinions.
And the big thing is, there are ways you could've made this movie work. Making a movie about the dangers of celebrity worship, and idolizing dangerous criminals or just general e-celebs by people who have privileged lives but want to feel "different" by being faux tortured could work, because there are people out there that are like that. But to do it in one of the most boring, pretentious, paper-thin sh*t plots I have ever seen doesn't make this movie worth it. It feels phoned in for a paycheck and to capitalize off the success of the first film.
As the phrase goes, don't sh*t where you eat.
If you watch this as simply an Arthur Fleck story.... It hurts man....
People go to the movies and watch films to escape their current reality. When the film is about the horrific story reality people seem to not like it. As their not able to escape their reality through the film
Blade Runner is boring and was a flop.
Kubrick movies weren't popular.
Metal Solid 2 was also unpopular, and it has elements analogous to Joker 2.
I think Joker 2 was boring, as you said, and manipulative.
It's more real ("a real movie about a real struggling human") than usual Hollywood movies.
It didn't show some scenes suggested from the trailer.
But I don't think that makes it bad.
The Joker asked to stop singing and speak instead -- to stop the fantasy, live reality.
After being said to give what the audience wants, the Joker was shot.
It seems to say, subtly, some things that became true.
I don't believe it's only a comment about itself and the Joker fans:
It's a comment about people focusing their lives based on fantasy, low pleasures, memes, clichés -- i.e.: immaturity.
But, though they think they're smarter than the system, they're very easily played like a fiddle.
It's like the Brave New World.
Great reading, we are all like Arthur, but we behave like Lee. Human nature is complex, in a way, we succumbed to the "fantasy".
@@rodrigoodonsalcedocisneros9266 I also noticed most people also criticize the movie as if the events happened, lacking the ability of abstraction to find messages.
For instance, some people say Arthur was raped. Others say he wasn't. Fantasy is real in their minds.
But I think the important thing is the Joker features were removed from Arthur and his attitude regressed to what we saw initially in the last movie.
It's like viewers discussing if the spinning top in Inception was going to stop -- the director said it doesn't matter and focusing on it is missing the point.
Many viewers also seem to want to see violence, revenge, one liners and a character succeed, even if he's an awful person.
They don't want to be challenged and get receive something to thing about.
They're like kids wanting to see things moving, have control and live in a fantasy.
If they don't have what they want, they want revenge or someone to fail.
That's like Lee. You're right.
People didn't get it at all. They took the ending literally. But if you think about it for more than 2 seconds, you realise the psychopath stabbing him was in fact his Joker side, murdering his Arthur Fleck side. It was in his head.
Now he is free of his weaker side and free to decline.
yh but we see that arkham inmate stalking him the whole movie. he was even watchinh tv with the rest of them when arthur was on trial
@@h.4343 it was probably something that actually happens but it was also a metaphor probably
I just watched it and had horrible expectations. I really liked it. I think it was a matter of crazy hype and expectation. I too expected it to be about how Joker became a crime boss. But I knew that wasn't the case before I watched. Once you get rid of what expect and watch the movie that it is without imposing what you think it should be, I think it was a good movie.
Ok so let me tell this. Now the film is
released in ott. So watch it with English subtitles so that you will understand the meaning of songs and the situations that songs plays. Joker 2 is an Anti- joker film which tells that joker is just a mindset anybody can get it. It's not just Arthur fleck. This film deals with Arthur Fleck more than Joker. In the opening scene they snowed how Arthur & his shadow fighting to take over the character Joker. It's like Carl Jung's Psychoanalysis about Shadows, egos and Anima. People loved the fantasy more than the real Arthur fleck. People criticized the musical. But in reality Most of the Mentally ill patients deals with their self with Dance, songs and drawings. Joker does everything. Even he draws in courtroom. And the dance he did in Joker 1 bathroom is different from dances in joker 2. The dance in joker 1 bathroom is calm and slow because he is drowning into the madness joker and accepted joker as his reality. That's why you see the Same scene in Joker 2 also where in the end of the scene he washes away his makeups (Not included in joker 1). This proves.. Arthur doesn't want to be joker no more. Even in the end they showed Arthur running in the same streets in joker 1. Sometimes musical will tell alot than Having dialogues. Because Mental ill patients can't convey their emotions like normal people. If they can actually conveys their emotions like us then there is no point of getting confusing about our shadow personality. In the end people loved the joker but Arthur himself disowned the joker then people got mad. The other mentally ill persons seen joker as saviour too.. That's why in climax Arthur fleck got killed and The killer took over the Identity of joker. This film is deep in psychoanalysis, Politics, Psychiatric institutions, Judiciary, and Most importantly The Populist mindset of the masses. I give this film 8/10. I reduced 2 points because I expected the Tone of film
would beike joker 1 (Gritty). I hope the admin would see this and pin.
Well, personally I'm glad to - finally - see a 'review' of Joker 2 that doesn't just knock the movie.. To be honest, from everything I'd heard about Joker 2 AND the trailers of it I'd seen, PRIOR it's release, I'd nonetheless still wanted to watch this film in full.. then I heard, read, and saw, all the adverse reviews about it and so was put off perhaps even WANTING to watch it, anymore.. Like I say, though.. PERHAPS.. as, ultimately, what makes the negative (re-)views of this movie any more valid than my own (or anyone else's) until we've actually watched it for ourselves?.. (So, anyway, thanks, at least, for giving me more of a reason again to want to watch it.. and see & make for MYSELF what I will of it!).... 💃🕺🎬.. 👍
I don't like musicals
But i like this movie, I love old songs like the ones in the movie, the interpretations where great, but most importantly, I hate musicals, because they use any excuse to sing and its usually super jarring, this movie isn't, it wasn't jarring at all, not only that, the songs are REALLY important for the character development and plot of the movie, anyone watching it dubbed ot their language and not understanding the songs because they are in english, will not understand a bunch of parts of the movie.
The musical parts are a complement, i don't know how to describe it, its almost as if its an anti musical because the songs aren't bad, they aren't annoying and they are greatly implemented into the plot, they don't feel "unrealistic" most of the time they happen they happen in a room where people don't join into him singing like some disney movie, they just look at him, a bunch of times it happens for real and sometimes just his head. Arthur being someone who's father figure is the tv and entertainment industry, it just makes sense that he makes up some broadway show inside his head to cope, like someone else said, some mentally ill patients draw, sing and dance to cope, and he does ALL OF THE ABOVE, he is a mentally unwell man, HOW DO YOU EXPECT HIM TO SEE REALITY LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, he isn't JOKER from the COMICS, he is JOKER from the FILM JOKER, you shouldn't go into a SEQUEL of a movie that didn't follow the """""""cannon""""""" expecting to see those things in it. This is the deepest joker interpretation that we have gotten in the last like 10 years becuase he is a human, not a cartoon villian.
It helped save my life.
I loved the movie till the last 15 minutes when they completely abandoned the plot they were setting up.
Thanks for this commentary, I completely agree.
I eventually came around to it, i don't like the ending still but it looks nice, the acting is great, i like how the first movie is about how society abuses the mentally ill and this one is about how society exploits the mentally ill, i like harly manipulating joker in this that was really smart idea, there are alot of really great moments and i feel bad hating it as much as i did when i first saw it its a 6.5 out of 10 but we can all agree that ending is bad really really bad
I wanted to like this movie and I'm still gonna I'm not gonna let other people ruin It for me I'm gonna love this one
The movie could have been a masterpiece if it didn't have Joker in it. It was a waste.
As someone who doesn't really like comic books, the first movie is a masterpiece. The second is garbage.
Dude, I want to thank you. I've just watched dozens of reviews bagging this movie and apart from yours and Quentin Tarantino's comments, there has been no one that has tried to look at it from a different perspective. I actually appreciate it now but I still feel pretty ripped off by the fact that at no point did Arthur 'get one over' on ANYONE, not even the prison guards. He was just a sad, pathetic loser and then he got murdered. Pretty bleak.
Awesome, man. Glad I could present a different perspective. I myself felt pretty validated when I saw Tarantino's comments about the thing.
And yes. Undeniably very bleak.
So, it is just me that noticied that she NEVER EVER VISITED THE JOKER in the solitary? There is no such thing as visitation on solitary, they never did sex. C'mon people... be smart, it was an allucination. The guy is a virgin incel.
Still think it's bad. I think, for the most cases, the main idea or message couldn't be bad, it's always about the execution and this film has weak execution(competent nevertheless). Most people understood what this movie is about, they just express their opinion through the prism of disappointment and boredom.
A lot of folks went in expecting a comic book movie. This isn't about comic books! There are deeply significant and compelling truths about modern pop culture being explored in this movie. We take these sad people like Arthur Fleck and only pay attention to them when they do something horrendous. Before that they are nobodies. They are forsaken and ignored. We make them into these megastars after they take multiple lives. The one who comes to mind is Jeffrey Dahmer because so many wrongly worship him. Despite their infamy they do not ever get to experience normalcy. It is basically a fantasy and their reality is abysmal. Psychologically what is going on? Why is this phenomena so prevelant?
Then looked what happened at the end of Joker Deux! Arthur becomes the victim of another maniac who then adopts his persona. So the cycle repeats.
Arthur rediscovers his humanity the night he is assaulted and the guards do in Ricky. Then he gets rejected by the one he loves for being human and not acting like a maniac.
Interesting points
Call it Arthur: Folie a Deux and problem solved.
this was an easy home run ⚾️ I don't get that director dude at all
I completely agree
I agree with you man completely. The movie got a really bad reception because most of the audience of the movie was incel joker fans 😂
It’s easier to to make a movie people people don’t like than one people do. I don’t consider people disliking it to prove anything.
I don’t find making a movie with no mass market appeal that interesting, even if it’s done by keeping the parts of the movie central to its themes and intended meaning, while removing superficial qualities that contribute to its wide appeal.
I see what you mean basically but it doesn’t actually make me like it a lot more.
Yeah, that's a very valid point. I guess its lack of mass market appeal interested me in a more experimental, sending-a-message typa way.
@
it just makes me think of a lot of modern art. It falls into the broad “no you don’t get it, it’s bad on purpose” archetype.
The fact that the viewing public doesn’t want the deep version of the movie is not a shock to me.
It doesn’t surprise me.
So making it sad instead of exciting, and spelling out that the MC isn’t an aspirational figure, and then having people not like it just seems like a pointless exercise.
To me it just makes me think, the way you pointed out, that If the branding hadn’t been there, and if incels hadn’t gone “literally me” then nobody would have watched the first movie either.
It makes me think of like the Swiss guy who dug a big hole through the concrete of a gallery for a quarter million dollars.
It makes me think of take the money and run.
Most modern art can be bought and sold and therefore used to launder money, but both of those are in a similar vein where taking the money and then making something that won’t make the money back is the point.
Of the three take the money and run is just more striking of a story. And none of them are that striking as a finished product to me.
I enjoy them much better as a story of getting people to pay you a bunch of money to make something most people don’t want.
The fact that kind of story the movies are meant to tell doesn’t appeal to the general public is obvious to me. And I guess I may just be the general public.
It’s funny that a guy dug a big hole for a ton of money. It’s funny that guy tried to submit a blank canvas for slightly less but still a good amount of money.
It’s funny that the this movie’s budget was justified by the previous film that people only liked because they misunderstood it, and then the new one used that budget to clear up the misunderstandings and so people didn’t like it and it made no money. Pretty funny.
But I’m not necessarily gonna go look at the hole or the empty canvas or this film and go “I am enjoying engaging with this”
Gotta disagree on you on the musical aspects and the movie being boring
Fantastic film - better than the first.
You are right, it isn't bad it's horrible
You're a genius!
You literally have sigma in your name, you clearly aren't old enough to understand what makes a movie good
@@jamirbakerv5119 so I can't share my opinion on movies now?
@@jamirbakerv5119and you do? If you like joker 2 you clearly don’t understand good movies. Stop trying to be different cringelord
@@creepertv-sigma Not on this one, lol.
True haters of the movie must be pretty pissed after watching this video, lol.
They made sure to let me know in the comments lol
I'm being reminded of Piero Manzoni's "merda d'artista". With enough "meta" commentary, you can literally sell canned shit to idiots, and raise the price when the can starts leaking.
A boring musical with poorly arranged and poorly executed famous songs banking on the fame of a successful existing IP is not "genius". It's a cashgrab. Beyond the poor execution and poor choice (since apparently "creating" new music for more than one song is an insurmountable task), defending the story is kind of like defending the last season of game of Thrones - yeah... you could defend the end as an interesting conclusion, but then you really should have written a story that lead up to that. If the whole point of this Joker is being somewhat grounded in a realistic world, maybe don't have magical interventions. Maybe don't have a judge allow this "symbol" to be dressed as Joker in court. Maybe don't have the security be so poor after he's incited Giant riots. Maybe don't have this frail body be fine after being beaten or after having an explosion a few meters away. Maybe don't have him join a choir. Maybe don't have a random wealthy woman there. Maybe don't have her be able to easily start a giant fire out of nothing. Maybe don't make a character who's way too empathic to be a guard, and then once you made that silly choice, maybe don't suddenly turn him into a racist... Maybe just don't make this film
It’s sad and pathetic they had to ruin one of the greatest characters of all times just to spit social justice bullshit
Does it really matter why Todd made such a horrible film when deciding whether it’s a good film or not? It’s a bad film. The reasons are interesting but the outcome is the same
I think I can appreciate it as a film when I look at it from a more experimentalist lens.
Nope
It 100 percent feels like a disrespectful taken to make first movie fans mad. I don’t care about the message the movie was saying or the artistic representation. It as a standalone movie is BAD. It as a sequel to one of the best movies I have ever watched is TERRIBLE. We were cheated out of a good sequel where he and Harley go on a chaotic crime spree but instead we have court room drama that feels worthless, joker getting assaulted, then eventually murder we by the real one. Everyone, do NOT go see this movie. Legitimately one of the few movies to make me vocally upset
If all you want is a joker killing spree go watch all the countless interpretations of the joker in film and comic books where he does just that. This is not that story and that’s a great thing. What we got was probably the most original and unique sequel ever.
@ yeah, how good does that original and uniqueness taste???? It’s boring and not entertaining, and joker character already went through his arc in first movie, this entire 2nd movie is nothing but a waste of time and I’m glad it’s bombing so hard
Its not bad its horrible
It sucks people hate it. I agree that it did what it wanted to really well in terms of proving it’s point using the audience instead of the movie itself. I think it’s a move some people find pretentious and reminds me of how people are just barely coming around to The Last of Us 2. Very similar vibes here
The movie is horrible…. Way to much singing and it pours $h!+ on the first film.
Nah
Clearly, you weren't convinced by the heartwarming plea I made in the first 6ish seconds of the video
Just watch the fucking video
What do you disagree?
Love these comments😅 very clear point in one word
There is no plot. It’s terrible
It's awful 😖
It was trash.
People will hate this movie now, wait until people make a full breakdown of this masterpiece in the future, they'll watch again and change their mind.
Doubt it.
No they won't, because this movie fails on very fundamental levels.
@@ShatteredIce The only thing it fails at is not having a comic accurate Joker...... which the first movie also didn't have.
YES YES I AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS! THIS IS WHAT I'M TRYING TO TELL PEOPLE
sorry the movie is garbage on every level.
No, society as a whole just doesn’t understand art anymore.
@PEEERRRR Valid opinion, homie
@MalabarTheGreat Brother are you good? Did the Joker movie shoot your parents in crime alley or what's up?
I feel embarrassed you responded instead of just deleting the video and disappearing
@@PEEERRRR Ngl I almost did it. Almost game-ended myself, too. You don't realize just how much I value your opinion, Mr. PEEEEEEEER
This movie shitted on what the original stood for and even retconned some things in the original ending. It’s basically a middle finger to all of the people who enjoyed the original film. It’s such a shame.
This is not going to age well.
It's an opinion. What does that even mean?
@@2501vai That it's not going to age well. Were you not able to read that before commenting?
@lilkingg82 Other comment has a point. What the hell are you on about with the ominous touting? The movie is hated right now already. This WAS the worst time for this video. I don't think there's any chance people are gonna hate the movie even more with time.
@@lilkingg82Let me make it really simple for you, as you didn't seem to understand the first time. He was asking you to elaborate on the point of your comment. Not for you to repeat it word for word.
@fsociety.dat101 Let me make it Real simple for you. Think before you type. Brain rot seems to be contagious
Not even watching the video, just saw the title and came by to give it a dislike, peace.
Peak player hater behavior
With those critical thinking skills, I hope you don't vote lol.
I don't care who you vote for, past, present or future. I just think with such a lack of critical thinking faculties, and such a single mindedness, you're better off not voting. Or if you do, just dip your hand in a hat and pull out a name 🤷♂️
this movie isnt about society nor art, is about the joker and the universe tied to it. horrible execution, and horrible movie
I don't know, man. I don't think it's fair to be making absolute statements like that, especially in regards to it being "about the joker and the universe tied to it".
I’m genuinely convinced you didn’t even watch it if that’s your take… it’s very clearly meta commentary on society and art
You’re right, it’s terrible actually
Someone beat you to this joke in the comments already
Yes, yes it is. Insane levels of cope trying to justify this abject failure
It ain’t that bad bro
@ yea it is. It’s the first movie since saving private ryan where I personally heard of multiple people walking out of the theatre because it was so cringe
Garbage movie
Perhaps, it could be the worst sequel in Hollywood history..
I don't know, man... We've had some pretty horrible sequels.
Watch more movies, lol.
This video was a waste of your time.
before you tell me i'm... so you already know, and still went with the making of the video, nice
@@ermanbumaguin8063 point being?
@@a7000zo he's a big boy, he knows
@ermanbumaguin8063 Yeah, I'm kinda wacky like that. Some even say I'm the up and coming Todd Philips.
@@failureoncommand i can tell you are lol
@@a7000zoThere isn't one.
The movie sucks you’re not deep bro . The joker is a comic book character that fights a guy in a bat costume . If Todd doesn’t like DC should have not made the movie simple .
It’s just he’s opinion
@ it’s a very autistic I smell my own farts and think I’m smarter than everyone type opinion tho
@ThePartyyChat This may be the most braindead comment I've received on this video yet, but what else can you expect from someone with a channel called "the men are talking podcast" and a profile picture of AI generated mush? Get your head out your own ass. To use your own rhetoric against you... I'm a smart fella, you're a fart smella
Let me get you of youre high horse. So their joker and his actions can never be justified. But the abuse he gets from the system is perfectly ok.
how it is in mental health...
Stop capping, the french ruined the movie
The French ruin everything
@@failureoncommandreal