Thanks for watching, Super Nerds! I know this one is a bit dense, but being the MTG nerd that I am, I wanted to try an experiment. And *below is the full set-up of the deck* and a link to the paper if you're interested (it's very complicated!): arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 and if you like Magic and/or EDH, please subscribe to The Command Zone, the only magic podcast I listen to: ruclips.net/channel/UCLsiaNUb42gRAP7ewbJ0ecQ -- kH 1) Go infinite. Play Staff of Domination, draw whole deck. 2) Play Fathom Feeder, Reito Lantern, Lotus petal, demonstrate loop where cast-sac-lantern-fathom feeder to exile rest of Josh’s library. 3) Play Karn, exile card from Josh’s hand. Demonstrate loop with Capsize to exile all cards from Josh’s hand and all permanents he controls. 4) Cast Infest, in response Cleansing Beam (fathom feeder), Coalition Victory, Soul Snuffers, Gix 5) Sac Soul Snuffers to Gix 6) Cast Blazing Archon, Vigor, XN, RR, Dread of Night, Shared Triumph (naming Luhrgoyf), Privileged Position, Mesmeric Orb, Fungus Sliver, Wild Evocation, Prismatic Omen, Choke, Memnarch, Olivia Voldaren, Djinn 7) Cast Cloak of Invisibility on one XN. 8) COPY TIME. With Stolen Identity, copy 79 times with Djinn. Vigor, Archon, XN (7), RR (33), Dread of Night, Shared Triumph. Use Memnarch to make Dread of Night, Shared Triumph (naming rat), Cloak of Invisibility artifacts. a. Give cloaks to 36 XN and RR. 9) Using Riptide Replicator and Capsize, create 36 creature tokens of varying power and toughness, using 18 different creature types we are going to use as symbols in our program. 10) Using Prismatic Lace, Glamerdye, Artificial Evolution and the Djinn, change text, creature type, and color of pretty much all my permanents. a. All XN + RR going to be red, black, green, and white, and are going to make different creature tokens of a different color, according to our program. b. All tape tokens to the left of the 2/2 orc are going to be green, all to the left will be white. c. Our Fungus is going to be white and give counter to “incarnations” instead of slivers d. Dread of night is going to look for “black” creatures instead of white. e. Olivia Voldaren to make Assembly Workers instead of Vampires 11) Cast Donate 41 times. Give Josh all the hacked RR and XN, the Wild Evocation, a copy of the Vigor and the Archon. 12) Cast Illusory Gains on your White 3/3 Faerie. 13) Hacked Olivia Voldaren to hack all creatures in play as type Assembly Worker 14) Cast Recycle 15) Reito Lantern all graveyard specific order, Staff of Domination draw Donate, Donate + Djinn to Recycle and Privileged Position, draw 2 a.ON THE STACK, cast Reality Ripple on 18 of the XN and RR according to our program, gives the computer 2 different phases as your turn comes around 16) Reito Infest, Cleansing Beam, Coalition Victory, Soul Snuffers to library, draw rest of library + Infest 17) Karn / Capsize exile my hand plus all set-up permanents 18) Cast Karn, exile card from my hand, in response, Capsize Karn 19) Cast Wheel of Sun and Moon, cast Steely Resolve (naming Assembly Worker) 20) PASS
I'm computer engineer and have been playing since Theros. I understood the machine when it was working. I didn't understand getting there. So I'm a better programmer than I am a player. Which I guess is a good thing.
After 10 minutes of Kyle playing Solitaire the judges where called and he was DQ'd from the tourney for Slow Play (ignoring the fact the deck needs magic christmas land to even function)
After gaining infinite mana, drawing his entire deck, and exiling everything his opponent owns all on turn 1, Kyle proceeded to assemble a Turing Machine.
Given he was going to do that, he didn't really need an opponent. Given the game ended when he exiled his opponents hand and library. I get it's a framing device, for his Turing device, but I found it a tad irritating 😅
Not necessarily true, maybe he needed to go second to draw a card on his turn? If his opponent was playing legacy meta, his opponent could win turn 1 instead with some other decks, in theory XD
@@beangorl7005 You don't lose from having an empty library. You lose only if you draw from an empty library, but since Recycle made Jimmy and Josh skip their draw step they couldn't lose from that. The game was in stalemate, no one could do any move other than passing.
This was actually not the first stage of the study even! This was an optimization of it. The earlier stage required FOUR players, and it required players to not decline to use abilities that said "may". That was already impressive. The fact that they've optimized it to TWO players, and tournament legal, and no player choice is amazing.
I love the fact that the flavor text of “coalition victory” (their win con/computer ender) is “you can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts” which is pretty much what was done
I like how answering Josh's question of "do you win" is actually impossible to answer without just going through the game until you do win (or someone gives up and concedes/"interrupts" the game), because of the halting problem.
Well, there is a logical way to answer, which kinda leads into the decision problem, but I digress: If none of the token makers are setup to make a blue token, he does not win. The game probably halts at some point due to the way forced cycles work in the rules, if the tape gets caught in an infinite loop
Not quite right: the halting problem says that there can be no algorithm that can determine whether a program halts for all programs, it does not mean that you cannot tell whether some specific program will halt (for example, you know a program that just prints "hello world!" will halt even without running it). In this case, the program is known (and is probably pretty simple), so we could probably deduce whether it halts or not without playing.
I recently took my 25 year old (mostly Revised Edition) magic deck to play for the first time since then at a tournament. Every game was the weirdest I had ever seen. I almost won twice when my opponent had really bad luck.
@@yugioldchannel well thats because YGO and Magic have different Power Checks in place, yugioh dosnt have a "cost" system Inherent to all cards(some cards are restricted to once per turn, other are monsters thus must be summoned which is limited if normal summoned but its not a inherent thing) in Magic the advantage by having more cards in hand is neglitable, its still present BUT pure Card Advantage isnt as broken as in Yugioh, If you have a card in yugioh chandes are pretty good you can play it this turn, even better if its a Spell Card, in Magic do to the inherent check in place via Mana costs this is not the case. In yugioh if you Play Pot of Greed, you are doing 2-3 Things depending on Deck size, first you increase your starting hand by +1(if you draw it at start) ,if you play a 40 Card deck, no you dont you are playing a 39 Card Deck, And lastly You cycle Cards from the top of your deck faster then normaly possible. In Magic that isnt a big deal, the mana System keeps it in check, IN yugioh, this isnt the case, any card you gain, or even more so every card your deck is smaller will increase consisctency by leaps and bounds, as there are almost no situtions where a card is "dead" in your hand if your deck is build well, while in Magic that can happen do to the mana system,
@@matheusrudzevicius6448 I think it is a bit more than a few hundred. It depends on the number of cards in his deck, times the # of times in a rotation a blue token is on his board. Pretty cool stuff.
@@ThePeoplesWill oh yeah for sure, a few hundreads was the low end, it could be a lot more than that, turing machines tend to go trought a lot of states, especialy if the command is complex
@@Arenuphis Well.... Near endless until opponent scoops. Which is the only action Jimmy and Josh could have still legally taken on any of their turns. Which I love because it's the metaphoric to now semi-literal throwing a wrench in the gears of the machine. Also shades of that famous computer/AI situation that computed the only solution to "win" was to not keep playing.
this shit right here A: "i gain two mana from this card, to cast these two cards" B: ... A: "i sack those two cards to cast this card, which i gain three mana from" B: ... A: "i cast this enchant to reduce the tap cost from the three-mana-gain card to two mana, giving me infinite mana" B: ..."oh god... no..." A: "i then cast this card, which allows me to transform that mana into every color, giving me an infinite amount of every color mana" B: "please... i just want to play ONE game!" A: "i then exile your deck and hand, and draw my entire deck" B: "deaR GOD WHY?!" A: "i then win the game by dealing an infinite amount of damage to you"
What if the person making the computer sets it up to check for counterexamples to eg. Goldbach's conjecture up until some incomprehensibly large number, and then depending on the result either halt or enter an infinite loop? Therefore making the outcome of the game into an unsolved mathematical problem? Might be a slightly more interesting day than average for the judge in question.
@@Chris-P.-Bacon-III I remember an urban legend about a blue deck involving a Black Lotus, a card that had a time-loop effect allowing you to regain said Black Lotus, and a card that made the target draw a number of cards by the amount of mana expended. The end result was you targeted the opponent forcing the, to draw their entire deck in their hand, which of course would result in it being discarded because you can only have 7 cards in your hand. Next turn, opponent can't draw, and then lose. It was said that this combo was banned and tourney rules were changed to prevent this kind of exploit. Edit: I admit to making this comment before fully watching this video. Now I'm not sure if the aforementioned "urban legend deck" is what Kyle played, as I can't recall of the top of my head what the other components are.
The most amazing part about this in my opinion is that the program runs by itself once it is assembled, i.e. every action is forced. You could probably build a way simpler computer by using charge counters etc on lands and artifacts and tap / untap effects, but then the player would have to execute the algorithm by actively choosing the correct actions, which is then not sufficient for saying "mtg is turing complete". Also, using token creatures for the band and creature types for the symbols is hilarious and really smart at the same time.
Imagine Kyle entering world's with Turing deck and somehow despite professional and anonymous shuffling, he gets first place because before he can even take any of the win conditions the opponents scoop when their hand and field are exiled
I like the flavor text on Coalition Victory literally saying "You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts". I wonder if Urza meant Turing machine at that moment ...
Orlando Rotundo It would eventually win with Coalition Victory, because he’ll eventually get every color creature token. It’ll probably take another 10 cycles to get there though.
@@ridleypuff2706 This is a certified bruh moment. I think I still prefer my anime card game over this one card. Like how you can't get landlocked in FoW.
Don't mock my forest swamp as lazy design just because it is just strictly better then either! Oh, sorry you where talking about the power 9. Good old days when they didn't know jack about balance. WotC in 1993: "draw 3 cards? 1 mana seems fine. extra turn? Uh, that sound heavy, make it 2. gaining 3 mana? i think 0 is balanced." The meta: "Wat? Do you sometimes stop and listen to yourself?! Or do you just pull shit out your ass as you go?" For people who don't know magic: And by the rules of the format he plays those cards aren't even legal. Lotus Petal(what he used) is strictly a powered down version of the Black Lotus the mentioned 3 mana for 0.
You can treat the colors as a base 6 number system with colorless being 0. As the colors in MTG have a specific order they show up in you get: C: 0 W: 1 U: 2 B: 3 R: 4 G: 5 This means that you can encode data in Base 6 instead of base 2 like an electronic computer as each bit has 6 different states. This would significantly lower the length of tape for math operations when compared to Base 2. So in order to add 2+2 your valid output bit would be R. If you want to get really granular with numbers you could use the first letter of each token name as well this would let you use base 26 or base 6 (assuming you can make tokens that start with each letter of the alphabet.)
Actually, you can do it with each creature type that is nonessential to the functioning of the machine. Seeing as there are 281 creature types, and assuming Assembly-Worker is the only type that prevents the head reading, you could do calculations in base-280.
I agree that it must be a lack of Magic: The Gathering knowedge. I'm an adjunct instructor in the Computer Science department of a university, and I was only able to follow along until the cards came out. I still plan to share the video with my students. 😉
Dr. Churchill: "I'm going to build a Turing Machine inside M:tG." Assistant: "My lord, is that legal?" Dr. Churchill: "I will *make* it [legacy] legal." *plays Power Artifact on Grim Monolith* U N L I M I T E D P O W A A A A A H ! ! ! !
Kyle... This. Was. AWESOME! Just a couple of things that might make it a bit clearer for someone watching without a background in CS: 1. I'm assuming the phasing thing is to simulate the alternation of READ and EXECUTE phases of the Turing machine. When you do the explanation of the Turing machine in the beginning, you kind of breeze over that part. 2. All of the setup is simply to make your opponent into the tape and clock (phasing) parts of the machine, and to then reduce the board state to the necessary parts to make the machine work. I'm not sure you point that out well enough for people to realize what's going on when you're doing all that initial stuff (Karn, etc). 3. Big props to Josh and Jimmy, who I thought did a good job pointing out that their turn simply consisted of those state updates, and nothing else. Seriously though, instant sub! I can't wait for more!
See what's fun is when they have an infinite loop to ping everyone down one by one, and as they aim at you or at a point where everyone else is gone, you interrupt and crash their loop to take the win.
you can run any video game on it. you just need to know the game's internal code. but to even get to the first frame of the first loading screen, probably even calculating the first pixel would take thousands of years. it would take the universe to die and be reborn multiple times before you have even gotten to play one full frame of the game.
Super super SOOOOPER nerds: Use a card game to implement a computer that implements Minecraft that implements a computer. (Yes, it's theoretically possible!)
The amount of work that must have gone into this Research Paper if absolutely astonishing. I don't even know how to begin with such a huge task, insane
in principle it should be able to, but it would involve millions of tokens in a specific configuration, so no human could ever even assemble the initial board state, much less execute it
It's a common strategy in certain decks which use blue cards, mainly Laboratory Maniac, which changes the loss condition drawing from your deck with 0 cards into a win condition using cards like Omnicience and Enter the Infinite to play cards without paying their mana costs and to draw your entire deck respectively.
well I think that's why they chose Assembly Worker as the base creature type. In terms of lore there would be Assembly Workers operating this massive machine, and I mean it would be massive, like the size of a country or planet, where every Assembly Worker would be an individual brain sell or bit inside the the computer. Sounds like something Urza would make, or the Phyrexians.
Having never played this game, I honestly have no clue what I just watched. However, and maybe even strangely, I still really enjoyed this video. You have such a gift for science communication. Fantastic stuff!
Anybody who has played this game has no idea what they just watched. It would probably take me an entire day to fully figure out how this works as someone who knows how the game works.
@@KnownAsKenji I think you maybe completely missed the point of the video... Also it is not an abacus, an abacus can add or subtract, that deck was calculating specific variables to get a desired result, aka executing a program. You can do that with an abacus too, or even a pencil and paper, but that does not make them computers. Technically the deck is not a computer either though, since the person controlling the deck is the one actually doing the calculations, just like with the abacus or the pencil and paper. In the end the only computer displayed here was the person playing the cards.
@@Silamon2 Except no person is actually making decisions in the game once the computer is assembled and programmed. Every decision is made by the cards themselves and the players are merely executing those decisions, therefore making it so that the game is doing the actual computations, not the players.
To be fair, the 1943 quote is taken out of context. The person saying it isn't referring to all computers, ever, they're referring to a specific type of computer they'd made that they were planning on selling around 5 of.
Andrew White that’s either way too few or way too many. (1 land for belcher, 12 for other combo decks, 18ish for blue decks, or 22-24 for non blue decks)
Kyle: "I told you that's weirdest game of magic you've ever seen" Me: "That was the only game of magic I've seen but I am both confused and interested"
Having played with an infinite deck for a while, that moment when you complete the combo and just say " so here is the rest of the game..." The look you get is priceless. I also love to name a random and arbitrary number instead of just infinite, just for fun. "I draw my deck." Never gets old lol.
Brainfuck isn't even that stupid, it's literally just "move pointer left", "move pointer right", "add 1", "subtract 1", "start a loop", "if the pointer is on a 0, go back to the start of the loop", "directly input a number", and "output a number". Things get complicated since it's so simplistic, but it's not *stupid*. Now Malebolge, on the other hand, where the code encodes itself as you run it? Yeah, that's just stupid (and evil).
@KRYMauL Assembly is not stupid. Assembly is how software communicated directly in hardware. For example the CPU will fetch the first address in memory and bring it into it's internal instruction register. Whatever is stored in this instruction register will get executed. Let's say we have assembly code that is something like mov r1, #12. This would move the immediate value of 12 into register r1 which is register that is available to the ALU within the processor. The opp code or machine code depending on size might be something like this in a 16 bit system: 0100100000001100 Here we can separate the bits into signal patterns: 01 001 000 0000-1100. The first 2 most significant bits could represents that it is a move instruction {01}, the next 3 bits represents that we are going to use register r1 to store or move the contents into represented by {001} the next three bits represents the addressing mode and in this case {000} would be immediate mode. The last 8 bits 0000-1100 would be the actual immediate value of 12 in binary that is going to be stored into r1. Then we could have on the next line in assembly mov r2, $20 which could mean take what is in address 20 and move it into register r2. This op code might look something like 01 010 001 0001 0100. Here the {01} is a move instruction, the 010 is using register 2 since 10 is 2 in binary, the next three bits 001 is now in direct address mode so the next bits 0001 0100 which is 20 in binary will look to see what is in memory at the memory address 20 (this is main memory or cache) and store its value into r2. Then on the next assembly instruction we could have something like add r3, r2, r1. The instruction code here might look something like 00 011 010 001 00001. In this case the first two bits which is 00 could represent an ALU instruction but we don't know what it is yet, The next three bits {011} would be the destination register r3, the two operands are would be {010} and {001} respectively which would be choosing registers r2 and r1 and send them to the ALU. The very last bit of a 1 at the end could mean that it is a control signal to the ALU to add the two input data paths and the destination was already set by {011} for r3. Without assembly you would have no way to talk to the hardware directly. Even high level languages regardless if they are compiled or interpreted, simulated etc. behind the scenes are converted into either assembly instructions very efficiently or into direct byte or opcodes to the targeted machine. Then the assembler will convert the assembly instructions into a binary file of all 0s and 1s that the computer or CPU can then process! Assembly is not stupid. Is it difficult yes it can be if you don't know what you are looking at or doing, but is it stupid? No! It is quite ingenious and very sophisticated to allow the programming of a computer much easier. I'd like to see you write a 500MB application in nothing but 0s and 1s by using only the architectures opcodes. Good Luck! Even advanced languages such as C/C++ Java, C# and Python wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Assembly! You also stated "Why do I have to move everything by reference"? Because when you write in assembly you are dealing with the hardware directly and when you are working with the hardware you have to load values into registers, set the data paths for either the arithmetic or logic operations, check the status flags, or do branching conditions for control flow. You have to assign memory addresses and you have to calculate them accurately. You have to handle the stack pointer and other special registers for handling function calls and return from functions calls or loops (block statements). You have to handle I/O operations and interrupts. You have to handle some exceptions where the Assembler, Compiler and OS will handle others for your. You have to know how to do pointer arithmetic and know how to assign memory address and how and when to access them. For example a block of code in C/C++ that looks like this: for ( int i = 0; i < 10; i ++ ) { //std::cout
Not really, since this is a turing machine, but an AI computer needs a bit more. For example this setup has no way to really safe and load states on demand. There is no RAM. I am not well versed on the matter to tell if it would be possible if you had a sufficient number of games interacting with each other. But I dont think so.
@jshowa oEven if you play that as AI vs AI with preset, pre-shuffled decks there's no way to actually shuffle the deck if a card tells you to - no good source of entropy to seed the RNG. All input, including the random seed would be pre-determined and same tape would always produce same result, even where in real game luck of the draw would be the deciding factor.
If the tape has been set up to calculate 2+2, then maths can prove that the game will halt and Kyle will win. If it's been set up to look for an integer that is the square root of 3, maths can prove the game will be an infinite loop (and thus a draw by the rules of Magic). If it's been set up to, say, look for a pair of twin primes greater than one million... does the game halt or not? MATHS DOESN'T KNOW YET! Muahahaha!
@@alextfish But due to the recent twin primes conjecture we know there are infinitely many twin primes. The game may or may not halt, but a sufficiently large TM with a sufficiently large tape could do it. It just might take several orders of magnitude longer than the heat death of the universe to do so. You know, an afternoon for KH.
@@soranuareane The twin prime conjecture has not been proven. You may have been confused by headlines talking about a related conjecture that was proved for finite fields.
This reminds of a DnD greentext where a lich built a computer out of skeletons by giving roles equivalent to diferent types of computer circuitry so that he could get infinite mana.
@20:31 We simplify Magic usually to narrow formats. And thus in the abstract Magic could be complex and computational enormous (infinite). However, real world Magic is never played this way. Where Go and Chess are played at higher levels. Could we have Turing Magic tournaments? Yes. But that’s a bunch of math nerds who are demonstrating this is possible.
1946: Computer that runs on Vaccum Tubes. 2019: Computer that requires a human's hand as data buses and a human brain as the CPU and a pack of cards that can nowhere be found. Additionally requires a new programming language to be derived to make logic. Respect++. If this thing works theoretically in an automatic fashion, it might be the fastest computer as it can have way more states than a normal computer has ie 10 in binary.
@@ben_clifford Except you could potentially push it further, and store 0-4 with the colors of magic. Which would only take tweaks in the set up I believe. It also stores names to creature types, which... that's just really in depth storage. 247 different creature types.
You could skip the middle step though, in any practical sense. You can create a turing machine just using a human being, and depending on how good their memory is, a pencil and paper. And that sounds kinda obvious, since humans can do maths, but... What I mean is you could construct a turing machine using a person where the only thing they have to know is how to do an update cycle of the turing machine state, which is a fairly simple operation. That means you could use the person to 'calculate' some arbitrary complex thing without them having any idea what exactly they are being instructed to work out.
@@ben_clifford @anxez Turing Machines can use any number of symbols. In this case, the Universal Turing Machine they are using has 18 different symbols, encoded in the creature types, and two States, encoded in the two sets of alternating phasing creatures.
@IRockerbacon if we don't convert and directly use it as its base is, it may be used to make it work with more States like it's done in quantum computing 3 states 0,1 and superposition. But to make it work we all know more research is needed.
Also: I want to set this up on MTGO and pull off the lock and let the computer process all the triggers. Let's see just how solid MTGOs rules system is lol
lsv has broken MTGO multiple times due to infinite forced loops. There's a video on ChannelFireball's RUclips channel involving three looping Oblivion Rings that can only target each other. Search for "lsv breaks MTGO." The answer to "how solid is MTGO's rules system?" is not very.
I've seen that video, and to be fair, that is proof that the rules system is working exactly as intended. However it is unable to determine and infinite repeating loop which is a tricky thing to calculate accurately. That is also only having to track a minimal set of triggers. This however is MANY many more triggers in specific orders. Would be curious if the stack in MTGO would have issues handling the complicated interactions.
@@asdffjsdjasd Except the program isn't necessarily an infinite loop, computing 2 + 2 = 4 would end with you winning the game, and thus returning out of the program the result 4 as displayed on the tape (in whatever representation it was programmed to do so).
I know nothing about this game, but watching him draw the entire deck on his turn just has an aura of power. the ultimate flex. Just so casual: so now I have infinity of everything and I draw my deck.
@@Machtyn There were a number of win conditions I saw, though I'm not sure if any of them are actually triggerable. That said, I was literally quoting a line from the vid.
@@Machtyn I think the "instruction" cards that make up the library have to be set up to meet the win condition, and that one was just set up to move one space. It seems like it would just move off the end of the tape and blue screen.
It might have been impossible to tell, if someone would've won this game. This is known as the halting problem: In general it is impossible to tell, if a Turing-machine will eventually stop (e.g. someone wins the game) (Of course for some configurations of a Turing-machine you can tell, but it's impossible to generalize for all machines + inputs)
@@TomGalonska ok i thought you could programm it so that you stop with coalition victory and win after x cycles. Of course that needs the right adjustments and preparation. But thats just a result of the computing to have the win condition.
it really amazes me that I can watch a game of modern yugioh at double speed and pretty perfectly understand whats going on but listening to almost anything being said during the game just confuses me.
As a Engineering student and as a Magic: The Gathering (and combo) player, this is one of the most interesting things I've ever seen. Thanks for posting this video, Kyle.
16:07 "You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts." That fits this video perfectly. The only problem with this Magic computer is that to run it quickly and reliably would require... a computer.
Well, a more immediate problem is it's an inefficient use or resources, since it requires a human being to do the steps. Which means... You could skip the whole magic game and just get a person with maybe a pencil and piece of paper to help them depending on how good their memory is... And ask them to compute something by getting them to repeatedly update a turing machine state. The person doesn't need to know what the program does - they just need to follow a predetermined sequence that constitutes a single state update of the turing machine, and iterate over the input data set until they get a result. Same outcome, much easier for a person to handle, requires fewer resources, and can, due to the simple nature of the 'update' calculation, be determined much faster...
The setup requires three specific cards that give you infinite mana (plus a few more to play them all turn 1). You're not going to pull that off without the other player scrambling for some card that ruins your nana engine, never mind everything else.
@@davidscott4919 dnd has alot of fail safes to prevent players from using magic items in conjunction to create better effects but since the world can technically have anything in it, given enough time, players could build just a normal turing machine
Some fellows came up with the idea of a skeleton computer. Many thousands of skeletons, each raising a hand based on if then statements given to them and recorded by other skeletons and it just goes on and on until you get what's effectively an actual computer
Thanks for watching, Super Nerds! I know this one is a bit dense, but being the MTG nerd that I am, I wanted to try an experiment. And *below is the full set-up of the deck* and a link to the paper if you're interested (it's very complicated!): arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 and if you like Magic and/or EDH, please subscribe to The Command Zone, the only magic podcast I listen to: ruclips.net/channel/UCLsiaNUb42gRAP7ewbJ0ecQ -- kH
1) Go infinite. Play Staff of Domination, draw whole deck.
2) Play Fathom Feeder, Reito Lantern, Lotus petal, demonstrate loop where cast-sac-lantern-fathom feeder to exile rest of Josh’s library.
3) Play Karn, exile card from Josh’s hand. Demonstrate loop with Capsize to exile all cards from Josh’s hand and all permanents he controls.
4) Cast Infest, in response Cleansing Beam (fathom feeder), Coalition Victory, Soul Snuffers, Gix
5) Sac Soul Snuffers to Gix
6) Cast Blazing Archon, Vigor, XN, RR, Dread of Night, Shared Triumph (naming Luhrgoyf), Privileged Position, Mesmeric Orb, Fungus Sliver, Wild Evocation, Prismatic Omen, Choke, Memnarch, Olivia Voldaren, Djinn
7) Cast Cloak of Invisibility on one XN.
8) COPY TIME. With Stolen Identity, copy 79 times with Djinn. Vigor, Archon, XN (7), RR (33), Dread of Night, Shared Triumph. Use Memnarch to make Dread of Night, Shared Triumph (naming rat), Cloak of Invisibility artifacts.
a. Give cloaks to 36 XN and RR.
9) Using Riptide Replicator and Capsize, create 36 creature tokens of varying power and toughness, using 18 different creature types we are going to use as symbols in our program.
10) Using Prismatic Lace, Glamerdye, Artificial Evolution and the Djinn, change text, creature type, and color of pretty much all my permanents.
a. All XN + RR going to be red, black, green, and white, and are going to make different creature tokens of a different color, according to our program.
b. All tape tokens to the left of the 2/2 orc are going to be green, all to the left will be white.
c. Our Fungus is going to be white and give counter to “incarnations” instead of slivers
d. Dread of night is going to look for “black” creatures instead of white.
e. Olivia Voldaren to make Assembly Workers instead of Vampires
11) Cast Donate 41 times. Give Josh all the hacked RR and XN, the Wild Evocation, a copy of the Vigor and the Archon.
12) Cast Illusory Gains on your White 3/3 Faerie.
13) Hacked Olivia Voldaren to hack all creatures in play as type Assembly Worker
14) Cast Recycle
15) Reito Lantern all graveyard specific order, Staff of Domination draw Donate, Donate + Djinn to Recycle and Privileged Position, draw 2
a.ON THE STACK, cast Reality Ripple on 18 of the XN and RR according to our program, gives the computer 2 different phases as your turn comes around
16) Reito Infest, Cleansing Beam, Coalition Victory, Soul Snuffers to library, draw rest of library + Infest
17) Karn / Capsize exile my hand plus all set-up permanents
18) Cast Karn, exile card from my hand, in response, Capsize Karn
19) Cast Wheel of Sun and Moon, cast Steely Resolve (naming Assembly Worker)
20) PASS
I understood _nothing_
I'm computer engineer and have been playing since Theros. I understood the machine when it was working. I didn't understand getting there. So I'm a better programmer than I am a player.
Which I guess is a good thing.
"Your ancestors called it Magic; you call it Science. Where I come from, they are one in the same."
" A bored wizard once made a vizzerdrix out of a bunny and a piranha. He never made that mistake again " - Because Science 2019
Finally a use for phasing!
Incidentally this deck is also more expensive than most modern computers.
@erium ok boomer
@@vin.himself yeah I'm a 30 year old boomer
Less that 400€, if you ignore shipping and buy the cheapest versions available online. I did the math.
I was thinking that - bet this deck actually costs more than a PC! Ironic, no?
yeah but it doesn't need electricity
One day you bring a deck to FNM.
"How does your deck win?"
"Oh, it doesn't. It just mines Bitcoin."
Would mining Bitcoin count as an alternate win condition?
@@robertlozyniak3661 depends on the prize money. If you can mine more than the prize in the time you're given, I'd say you've won.
@@robertlozyniak3661 Not unless it also mines prize packs as well.
LOL
@@robertlozyniak3661 I'd say so. Why even bother trying to win money if your magic cards can mine bitcoin?
Opponent in a tournament: What kind of a deck do you have?
Kyle: It's a Turing machine deck. It calculates 2+2 and then wins.
2+2 is the best stratmin mtg
After 10 minutes of Kyle playing Solitaire the judges where called and he was DQ'd from the tourney for Slow Play (ignoring the fact the deck needs magic christmas land to even function)
Red Deck wins?
No, Math Computer wins.
I love how 5 cards in he's already ignoring the option to literally deal infinite unblockable damage to his opponents lol
It’s like he said at the end… it’s not about the win: it’s about the science!
@@toasterstrooder8628 "it's not about money, it's about sending a message"
That reminds me of the artifact deck I made where I just get infinite mana, and my turn could on as long as I want and make as many tokens as I want.
it's not always about the damage spider man
This deck is all about the psychological damage.
After gaining infinite mana, drawing his entire deck, and exiling everything his opponent owns all on turn 1, Kyle proceeded to assemble a Turing Machine.
Given he was going to do that, he didn't really need an opponent. Given the game ended when he exiled his opponents hand and library. I get it's a framing device, for his Turing device, but I found it a tad irritating 😅
Not necessarily true, maybe he needed to go second to draw a card on his turn? If his opponent was playing legacy meta, his opponent could win turn 1 instead with some other decks, in theory XD
@@Mrphilipjcook He might have needed creatures to be on the board but not controlled by him
4rt_6uy I think there were set up creatures in there somewhere that prevented the immediate loss from not having a library but I'm not sure which
@@beangorl7005 You don't lose from having an empty library. You lose only if you draw from an empty library, but since Recycle made Jimmy and Josh skip their draw step they couldn't lose from that.
The game was in stalemate, no one could do any move other than passing.
This was actually not the first stage of the study even! This was an optimization of it. The earlier stage required FOUR players, and it required players to not decline to use abilities that said "may". That was already impressive. The fact that they've optimized it to TWO players, and tournament legal, and no player choice is amazing.
This comment is underrated.
I want to make this deck as a joke and have a friend play me in friendly with the condition I stack my hand just so he can witness this.
@@mr.voidroy6869 yes
1
Maybe something like this can work in Yugioh xD
I love the fact that the flavor text of “coalition victory” (their win con/computer ender) is “you can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts” which is pretty much what was done
Ha ha good catch! I bet that is one of the reasons they put that card in. Nice little Easter egg.
I like how answering Josh's question of "do you win" is actually impossible to answer without just going through the game until you do win (or someone gives up and concedes/"interrupts" the game), because of the halting problem.
THIS IS HILARIOUS
Gods curse ye halting problem!
Well, there is a logical way to answer, which kinda leads into the decision problem, but I digress:
If none of the token makers are setup to make a blue token, he does not win. The game probably halts at some point due to the way forced cycles work in the rules, if the tape gets caught in an infinite loop
Not quite right: the halting problem says that there can be no algorithm that can determine whether a program halts for all programs, it does not mean that you cannot tell whether some specific program will halt (for example, you know a program that just prints "hello world!" will halt even without running it). In this case, the program is known (and is probably pretty simple), so we could probably deduce whether it halts or not without playing.
@@HoxTop yeah exactly.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Magic the Gathering" -Arthur C. Clark
Ahahaha oh god this made my day. Actually lolled.
Hi, it is as cool seeing a super nerd comment before it blows up.
Super nerd verified
I recently took my 25 year old (mostly Revised Edition) magic deck to play for the first time since then at a tournament. Every game was the weirdest I had ever seen. I almost won twice when my opponent had really bad luck.
@@Sam_on_RUclips I grew up playing a ton of Magic, but ever since they added Planeswalkers, it's all become foreign to me.
I love how having infinite mana and drawing your entire deck on turn one is the easy part 🤣
Of course
TASTE THE RAINBOW
"In response, I cast Force of Will.".... "Fuck"
Magic: Let’s you draw your entire deck
Yugioh: Doesn’t let you use a card that draws 2 cards
@@yugioldchannel well thats because YGO and Magic have different Power Checks in place, yugioh dosnt have a "cost" system Inherent to all cards(some cards are restricted to once per turn, other are monsters thus must be summoned which is limited if normal summoned but its not a inherent thing) in Magic the advantage by having more cards in hand is neglitable, its still present BUT pure Card Advantage isnt as broken as in Yugioh, If you have a card in yugioh chandes are pretty good you can play it this turn, even better if its a Spell Card, in Magic do to the inherent check in place via Mana costs this is not the case. In yugioh if you Play Pot of Greed, you are doing 2-3 Things depending on Deck size, first you increase your starting hand by +1(if you draw it at start) ,if you play a 40 Card deck, no you dont you are playing a 39 Card Deck, And lastly You cycle Cards from the top of your deck faster then normaly possible.
In Magic that isnt a big deal, the mana System keeps it in check, IN yugioh, this isnt the case, any card you gain, or even more so every card your deck is smaller will increase consisctency by leaps and bounds, as there are almost no situtions where a card is "dead" in your hand if your deck is build well, while in Magic that can happen do to the mana system,
Next Episode: Running Doom in a Magic: the Gathering Turing Machine.
There's been some real funny comments but this one topped it for me. Gg
clearly the next thing to do is make nested turing machines. Running minecraft in pokemon yellow in microsoft powerpoint in magic the gathering.
But can it run Crysis
@Ishmam Masud - Cuz I Can this is like watching your own livestream while the stream is running
Making a computer in minecraft on magic: the gathering
Josh: "I play a forest"
Kyle's Turing computer deck: *"Hold my beer"*
XD
*I simulate the birth, life and heat death of the universe*
Kyle's deck: I scoop 99% of the time.
lol
When a blue player forgets to put a win condition in their deck.
I mean when the code finishes, a few hundred turns in, he would win with coalition victory
@@matheusrudzevicius6448 I think it is a bit more than a few hundred. It depends on the number of cards in his deck, times the # of times in a rotation a blue token is on his board. Pretty cool stuff.
@@ThePeoplesWill oh yeah for sure, a few hundreads was the low end, it could be a lot more than that, turing machines tend to go trought a lot of states, especialy if the command is complex
All counter spells and bounce spells. 0 win conditions besides making the opponent scoop. Maybe 4x oko to make a point
@@chanic4621 Oko is a win con though.
"I play a forest."
"Coo, I play my deck."
Half of all legacy games lol
I mean, I was waiting for the Swamp, Thoughtseize play, would have been extra fun
Legacy
I thought is was going to be a swamp into Thoughtseize 🤣
I have a mono green edh deck that goes infinite and plays the whole deck. Usually takes a few turns to build up to it tho
"But we need someone to play with"
-1st move makes them unable to do anything.
The villiany reveals itself. You must play with Kyle to sit in an endless loop of pass.
Yup it's magic
@@Dustquake If setup right it isn't endless, the "Coalition Victory" should resolve once you got your solution.
a near endless loop then
@@Arenuphis Well.... Near endless until opponent scoops. Which is the only action Jimmy and Josh could have still legally taken on any of their turns. Which I love because it's the metaphoric to now semi-literal throwing a wrench in the gears of the machine.
Also shades of that famous computer/AI situation that computed the only solution to "win" was to not keep playing.
Just noticed the majority of the card that Kyle used were blue. Blue is so strong it can literally make a computer.
The biggest flavor win of all time
Blue is literally all about gaining knowledge, all of it. Infinitely
Kyle: let me explain how this game is a computer
Magic player: judge!
this shit right here
A: "i gain two mana from this card, to cast these two cards"
B: ...
A: "i sack those two cards to cast this card, which i gain three mana from"
B: ...
A: "i cast this enchant to reduce the tap cost from the three-mana-gain card to two mana, giving me infinite mana"
B: ..."oh god... no..."
A: "i then cast this card, which allows me to transform that mana into every color, giving me an infinite amount of every color mana"
B: "please... i just want to play ONE game!"
A: "i then exile your deck and hand, and draw my entire deck"
B: "deaR GOD WHY?!"
A: "i then win the game by dealing an infinite amount of damage to you"
@@Chris-P.-Bacon-III
Omg, this was great.
What if the person making the computer sets it up to check for counterexamples to eg. Goldbach's conjecture up until some incomprehensibly large number, and then depending on the result either halt or enter an infinite loop? Therefore making the outcome of the game into an unsolved mathematical problem?
Might be a slightly more interesting day than average for the judge in question.
@@Chris-P.-Bacon-III so....vintage? Theres your problem right there!
@@Chris-P.-Bacon-III I remember an urban legend about a blue deck involving a Black Lotus, a card that had a time-loop effect allowing you to regain said Black Lotus, and a card that made the target draw a number of cards by the amount of mana expended. The end result was you targeted the opponent forcing the, to draw their entire deck in their hand, which of course would result in it being discarded because you can only have 7 cards in your hand. Next turn, opponent can't draw, and then lose. It was said that this combo was banned and tourney rules were changed to prevent this kind of exploit.
Edit: I admit to making this comment before fully watching this video. Now I'm not sure if the aforementioned "urban legend deck" is what Kyle played, as I can't recall of the top of my head what the other components are.
> "I made a Computer in MTG!"
"Is it bl-"
> "..it's blue."
Hahahaha 🤣
It's deep blue.
Honestly tho! But the funny thing is... It appears that the deck was majorly Black!
Of course it would be blue. I wasn't even surprised lol
@@yohumanfrisk it's all colors
This is almost literally the ProZD skits about Magic the Gathering.
Cheese cow
Black Brie
@@HUNKragor I like Cool Cow…because it's cool
IM MOOING INFINITE
This is just the cheese tasting phase
The most amazing part about this in my opinion is that the program runs by itself once it is assembled, i.e. every action is forced. You could probably build a way simpler computer by using charge counters etc on lands and artifacts and tap / untap effects, but then the player would have to execute the algorithm by actively choosing the correct actions, which is then not sufficient for saying "mtg is turing complete". Also, using token creatures for the band and creature types for the symbols is hilarious and really smart at the same time.
Human Elf Lizard Lizard Octopus Wizard Octopus Rat Lizard Druid
@@williambarnes5023ah yes
Son: hey daddy what is 2+2?
Dad: ok son *pulls out a deck of cards* I'll tell you in 18 hours
Lmfao . . 18 hrs later
"Daddy whats 2x2"
one day later
"here son, the result is 5... oh, i mistriggered something... let's do it again!"
Charles Crawford do you even understand the point of common core , or do you just talk shit because your an idiot
@@tylercsm4690 Common core has seventh graders adding and subtracting negative numbers.
@@johnfranklin87 ok i'll explain in 18 hrs x 18 hrs.
Imagine Kyle at a high stakes tournament explaining his magic Turing machine instead of actually playing the game
Lost because of slow play from a judge call.
Magic tournaments are now over with this.. they have to be, right?
@@Pyoromo is that a real thing? whoa so this cannot be applied?
Imagine Kyle entering world's with Turing deck and somehow despite professional and anonymous shuffling, he gets first place because before he can even take any of the win conditions the opponents scoop when their hand and field are exiled
@@Pyoromo Technically since he passes his turn almost immediately that would not apply.
I like the flavor text on Coalition Victory literally saying "You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts". I wonder if Urza meant Turing machine at that moment ...
Urza is so powerful he can destroy the fourth wall and the space time continuum
Playing solitaire with himself for 2 hours while preventing you to do anything and concede in the end - sounds like a classic UW-control experience :)
Sounds like standard Yu-Gi-Oh
*Start Game*
*30 hours later*
"...I win."
"...also my deck counted to 4."
@Orlando Rotundo That's a different game...
"my deck calculated that you lose"
Sounds like an EDH game I was in the other week...
Orlando Rotundo It would eventually win with Coalition Victory, because he’ll eventually get every color creature token. It’ll probably take another 10 cycles to get there though.
"What makes your deck powerful?"
"It just plays Minecraft lmao"
"I gave it an rtx 3080 graphics card"
Imagine running Arena on Arena.
(Turn X+1) I am now literally running a simulation of an 8th century peasant dropping a deuce at his in-law’s shitshack.
@@andythedandy when did this become Dwarf Fortress?
"I can take this deck to a tournament!"
"Please don't"
me: Please do!
I would want to see someone do that
We all want to see this. Omg imagine if multiple people brought the same deck.
He needs to have the exact cards in his hand for this to work and you have to shuffle your deck in a tournament.
Judge: "Disqualified."
I would bring it try to cheat to get the hand do the whole thing then scoop.
Months from now: "Todd Howard to develop Skyrim for MtG Turing deck"
it runs doom (93)
Yes. So Bethesda can release it again.
They don't even need that. We already have DnD and Harry Potter sets, how long do you think it will take before we get an MtG Elder Scrolls crossover?
Well first things first, can it run doom?
Next: Making digital MTG in MTG.
"Legacy legal deck."
Force of Will: "I'm about to crash this man's whole computer!"
Underrated game, wish it was popular in my area. Played a few rounds with my buddies, pretty darn fun.
@@pohatunuva3771 i think he meant the card force of will, not the game
@@ridleypuff2706 This is a certified bruh moment. I think I still prefer my anime card game over this one card. Like how you can't get landlocked in FoW.
Turn 1 Thoughtseize: "I'm sorry, your computer can't boot"
Force of will - literally blue screen of death
This is a level of nerdiness I couldn't even imagine.
Welcome to Magic. I started playing in 1997. And it gets super nerdy.
RIIIIGHT? HOW THE FCK DID HE EVEN LEARN AND EXPLAINEDDD ALL OF THAT WTFFFFFFFFFHHHH
And I love it!
If means you’re not bright
I wish I had the passion to be as nerdy as some people are with stuff like this
Turn one: forest, pass
Me: what kind of legacy game is this?
Turn one: infinite coloured mana of every colour
Me: Ah yes, this is more like it
Get a howling mine, library of leng, the urzas and racks and you've started a badass black deck
I know. Josh could have at least gone Forest into Heritage Druid to at least make it look like he’s playing Elves.
Don't mock my forest swamp as lazy design just because it is just strictly better then either!
Oh, sorry you where talking about the power 9.
Good old days when they didn't know jack about balance.
WotC in 1993: "draw 3 cards? 1 mana seems fine.
extra turn? Uh, that sound heavy, make it 2.
gaining 3 mana? i think 0 is balanced."
The meta: "Wat? Do you sometimes stop and listen to yourself?! Or do you just pull shit out your ass as you go?"
For people who don't know magic:
And by the rules of the format he plays those cards aren't even legal. Lotus Petal(what he used) is strictly a powered down version of the Black Lotus the mentioned 3 mana for 0.
How is this legal?
@@dragonmaster613 I will make it legal
You can treat the colors as a base 6 number system with colorless being 0.
As the colors in MTG have a specific order they show up in you get:
C: 0 W: 1 U: 2 B: 3 R: 4 G: 5
This means that you can encode data in Base 6 instead of base 2 like an electronic computer as each bit has 6 different states.
This would significantly lower the length of tape for math operations when compared to Base 2.
So in order to add 2+2 your valid output bit would be R.
If you want to get really granular with numbers you could use the first letter of each token name as well this would let you use base 26 or base 6 (assuming you can make tokens that start with each letter of the alphabet.)
Actually, you can do it with each creature type that is nonessential to the functioning of the machine. Seeing as there are 281 creature types, and assuming Assembly-Worker is the only type that prevents the head reading, you could do calculations in base-280.
@@FredDino you two are about to have a real nerd off to see who is the king math dork
Never have I been so lost on an episode of Because Science.
I have taken multiple courses in computer design, and I'm lost. I think it's the fact that I've never played Magic.
At some point I just phased out...
I've played Magic, let's see if I can help you after I watch. However, for me, that's a big "if". Restarting the video now.
I agree that it must be a lack of Magic: The Gathering knowedge. I'm an adjunct instructor in the Computer Science department of a university, and I was only able to follow along until the cards came out. I still plan to share the video with my students. 😉
@@kayagoksoy i see what you did there
Dr. Churchill: "I'm going to build a Turing Machine inside M:tG."
Assistant: "My lord, is that legal?"
Dr. Churchill: "I will *make* it [legacy] legal."
*plays Power Artifact on Grim Monolith*
U N L I M I T E D P O W A A A A A H ! ! ! !
Justin Lathem I do that in Commander.... I'mma dick
With only 4 lands the probability of getting the perfect hand on the first draw... 0.000000000000000001%
I have a bad feeling about this
This is quite possibly the absolute nerdiest thing that has ever happened ever
@Johnston Steiner That I feel is the ultimate outcome of this Expiriment. Doing all this in a Sharazad subgame to enact an outcome in a real game.
Kyle... This. Was. AWESOME! Just a couple of things that might make it a bit clearer for someone watching without a background in CS:
1. I'm assuming the phasing thing is to simulate the alternation of READ and EXECUTE phases of the Turing machine. When you do the explanation of the Turing machine in the beginning, you kind of breeze over that part.
2. All of the setup is simply to make your opponent into the tape and clock (phasing) parts of the machine, and to then reduce the board state to the necessary parts to make the machine work. I'm not sure you point that out well enough for people to realize what's going on when you're doing all that initial stuff (Karn, etc).
3. Big props to Josh and Jimmy, who I thought did a good job pointing out that their turn simply consisted of those state updates, and nothing else.
Seriously though, instant sub! I can't wait for more!
"...but I still need to perform seventeen other steps..."
You sound like everyone in my EDH group.
Me: I play a basic forest, pass.
Kyle: I will proceed to play my whole deck and make a computer!
Me: Force of Will, nope, welcome to legacy.
Nyft sadly unless he had something similar enough I his hand to trigger the computation that’s all it would take to destroy the entire deck 😭😭😭
TinyboxTim well that and him never drawing the right combo of cards lol
You could just play pauper or penny format.
That's like Flash or something
@@ultraatari9298 i prefer the good old EDH, i never get tired of janky memes
SNOW COVERED FOREST
ocd cured
Just the way Richard Garfield intended.
Lmao
Well Richard Garfield PhD is a mathematician, so this is in fact the way he intended
How long do you think it will be before someone simulates Magic: The Gathering inside of Magic: The Gathering?
Probably hundred of years
Mtg needs randomness. W8 DIGITS OF π CAN BE USED FOR THAT!
We're limited by the technology of our time. We only have a memory of 60 cards, and need at least 200 kiloCards
@@ihavekalashnikovyoudomath9275lol
There's a card that does that
me to my computer deck: "run win.exe"
my opponent: "it runs windows?"
me: "no, it calculates how to win the game"
Insta wins feel so cheap when you lose, but so satisfying when you're the one to pull it off.
Insta wins and Infinite loops are indeed so satifying to pull off XD
See what's fun is when they have an infinite loop to ping everyone down one by one, and as they aim at you or at a point where everyone else is gone, you interrupt and crash their loop to take the win.
It does run doom though
But can it run DOOM?
Can you run DOOM on a calculator?
@@monhunterz5430 yes
Technically yes. IT would be slow af, but yes xD
Technically speaking yeah
Fuck Doom, can it run Crysis?!
And now...
After Because Science
and Because Space,
here comes...
...Because Magic!!!
One Piece NaKaMa Production and thus begins the Choas Confetti that was Kyle's mind
11/10 would definitly watch.
No, Kyle himself has already said, "never Because Magic!"
Because MTG maybe, but a distinction is required.
Kyle: Grab SIXTY cards and meet me at the table
Josh and Jimmy: We don't do that here
"I built a computer out of Magic cards!"
That's cool, but can it run Crysis?
Theoretically, yes!
Can it run Doom though?
you can run any video game on it. you just need to know the game's internal code. but to even get to the first frame of the first loading screen, probably even calculating the first pixel would take thousands of years. it would take the universe to die and be reborn multiple times before you have even gotten to play one full frame of the game.
Please, this is new territory. At least let them program Doom first.
it can definitely run crysis, but programming it...
Yes, but given how slow it computes, you'd get like a frame a decade.
Nerds: computer in minecraft
Super nerds: computer in a card Game
Omega nerd: computer out of pokemon card game
If you can afford it. The deck to assemble the Turing Machine probably costs more than a top notch gaming PC.
Super super SOOOOPER nerds: Use a card game to implement a computer that implements Minecraft that implements a computer. (Yes, it's theoretically possible!)
JeremyzijdelYT Spider Solitaire: Card game in a computer
Just think that someone actually went "hey you know what I'm going to research for my PHD?"
Actually that's not how it came about, Alex doesn't have a PhD, he did this for fun, so even more respect!
@@anneharrison1849 it's just a joke, dont take it literally.
The amount of work that must have gone into this Research Paper if absolutely astonishing. I don't even know how to begin with such a huge task, insane
“How does he keep getting in here?”
“I c a n f i t t h r o u g h t h e d o g g i e
d o o r....”
" What magic card deck do you use bro?"
"I dont use my magic card deck, it uses me."
Sounds like an anime
👍
yeah but can it run doom?
You speak pretty reasonable
in principle it should be able to, but it would involve millions of tokens in a specific configuration, so no human could ever even assemble the initial board state, much less execute it
Technically yes 😂
Fair enough
16:07 "You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts." -Urza
Oh the irony
"[...] to draw the entirety of my deck."
Wait what?
Yeah that happens sometimes in Magic.
Step 1: Draw 1
Step 2: If there's cards in deck, repeat step 1, if not, proceed
It's a common strategy in certain decks which use blue cards, mainly Laboratory Maniac, which changes the loss condition drawing from your deck with 0 cards into a win condition using cards like Omnicience and Enter the Infinite to play cards without paying their mana costs and to draw your entire deck respectively.
I built a deck based off of the concept of drawing my entire deck while having multiple jace's erasures to destroy someone elses deck and force a loss
Drawing your whole deck is not actually that hard in Magic. There's a bunch of combos(interactions between two or more cards) that do it.
okay now i am imagining the implications of this in the MTG lore universe, and have to wonder if it could be used for some sort of arcane computer
well I think that's why they chose Assembly Worker as the base creature type. In terms of lore there would be Assembly Workers operating this massive machine, and I mean it would be massive, like the size of a country or planet, where every Assembly Worker would be an individual brain sell or bit inside the the computer. Sounds like something Urza would make, or the Phyrexians.
as Doyhyden above said, urza was already up there. There's been plenty of magitech in MTG lore. Just look at karn, who is basically an AI.
Having never played this game, I honestly have no clue what I just watched. However, and maybe even strangely, I still really enjoyed this video. You have such a gift for science communication. Fantastic stuff!
Anybody who has played this game has no idea what they just watched. It would probably take me an entire day to fully figure out how this works as someone who knows how the game works.
@@collinbeal That makes me feel much better about myself! Thanks! 🤣
"you could do math with a magic game"
"so what would you need for that?"
"...math"
1943: "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
2019: "I Built a COMPUTER in Magic: The Gathering"
This isn't a computer, it's an abacus. This invention has existed for over 3000 years.
@@KnownAsKenji I think you maybe completely missed the point of the video...
Also it is not an abacus, an abacus can add or subtract, that deck was calculating specific variables to get a desired result, aka executing a program.
You can do that with an abacus too, or even a pencil and paper, but that does not make them computers. Technically the deck is not a computer either though, since the person controlling the deck is the one actually doing the calculations, just like with the abacus or the pencil and paper. In the end the only computer displayed here was the person playing the cards.
@@Silamon2 Except no person is actually making decisions in the game once the computer is assembled and programmed. Every decision is made by the cards themselves and the players are merely executing those decisions, therefore making it so that the game is doing the actual computations, not the players.
@@Quintinohthree Thank you! I was just about to make the same point!
To be fair, the 1943 quote is taken out of context. The person saying it isn't referring to all computers, ever, they're referring to a specific type of computer they'd made that they were planning on selling around 5 of.
"I'm only running 4 lands." Sounds like Legacy alright.
Andrew White that’s either way too few or way too many. (1 land for belcher, 12 for other combo decks, 18ish for blue decks, or 22-24 for non blue decks)
Was about to comment this
@@Jolteon0163 0 for manaless dredge!
@@Jolteon0163 imagine forgetting about dredge
Regular dredge falls into the 12 land category but mana less dredge is 0 land, you right
I feel like the "I can fit through the Doggy Door." was off script and I love it
CZ Guys: So do you win?
CompSci Nerds: *Explains the Halting Problem.*
Kyle: "I told you that's weirdest game of magic you've ever seen"
Me: "That was the only game of magic I've seen but I am both confused and interested"
Thus, it was trivial to prove that it was the weirdest one you've seen.
Magic is awesome. I love it. I think if you like it you should try it its absolutley great
MTG Arena is free to play - go nuts (please dont use this insanity as an idea of how the game works)
Well, MTG Arena is free, and online, and as long as you don´t play black or blue it´s fun for everyone involved.
If you like science and the fantasy genre, you will love Magic: The Gathering.
"IT'S ABOUT THE SCIENCE BOYS, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE WINS!"
Best excuse for losing. XD
Having played with an infinite deck for a while, that moment when you complete the combo and just say " so here is the rest of the game..." The look you get is priceless. I also love to name a random and arbitrary number instead of just infinite, just for fun.
"I draw my deck." Never gets old lol.
Me: Brainfuck is the most stupid programming language ever.
Kyle: *Makes a computer out of playing cards*
Brainfuck isn't even that stupid, it's literally just "move pointer left", "move pointer right", "add 1", "subtract 1", "start a loop", "if the pointer is on a 0, go back to the start of the loop", "directly input a number", and "output a number". Things get complicated since it's so simplistic, but it's not *stupid*.
Now Malebolge, on the other hand, where the code encodes itself as you run it? Yeah, that's just stupid (and evil).
@@Gemini476 that sounds evil...
well...
the name checks out
Try Malbolge
@@Gemini476 try INTERCAL
@KRYMauL Assembly is not stupid. Assembly is how software communicated directly in hardware. For example the CPU will fetch the first address in memory and bring it into it's internal instruction register. Whatever is stored in this instruction register will get executed. Let's say we have assembly code that is something like mov r1, #12. This would move the immediate value of 12 into register r1 which is register that is available to the ALU within the processor. The opp code or machine code depending on size might be something like this in a 16 bit system: 0100100000001100 Here we can separate the bits into signal patterns: 01 001 000 0000-1100. The first 2 most significant bits could represents that it is a move instruction {01}, the next 3 bits represents that we are going to use register r1 to store or move the contents into represented by {001} the next three bits represents the addressing mode and in this case {000} would be immediate mode. The last 8 bits 0000-1100 would be the actual immediate value of 12 in binary that is going to be stored into r1. Then we could have on the next line in assembly mov r2, $20 which could mean take what is in address 20 and move it into register r2. This op code might look something like 01 010 001 0001 0100. Here the {01} is a move instruction, the 010 is using register 2 since 10 is 2 in binary, the next three bits 001 is now in direct address mode so the next bits 0001 0100 which is 20 in binary will look to see what is in memory at the memory address 20 (this is main memory or cache) and store its value into r2. Then on the next assembly instruction we could have something like add r3, r2, r1. The instruction code here might look something like 00 011 010 001 00001. In this case the first two bits which is 00 could represent an ALU instruction but we don't know what it is yet, The next three bits {011} would be the destination register r3, the two operands are would be {010} and {001} respectively which would be choosing registers r2 and r1 and send them to the ALU. The very last bit of a 1 at the end could mean that it is a control signal to the ALU to add the two input data paths and the destination was already set by {011} for r3.
Without assembly you would have no way to talk to the hardware directly. Even high level languages regardless if they are compiled or interpreted, simulated etc. behind the scenes are converted into either assembly instructions very efficiently or into direct byte or opcodes to the targeted machine. Then the assembler will convert the assembly instructions into a binary file of all 0s and 1s that the computer or CPU can then process! Assembly is not stupid. Is it difficult yes it can be if you don't know what you are looking at or doing, but is it stupid? No! It is quite ingenious and very sophisticated to allow the programming of a computer much easier. I'd like to see you write a 500MB application in nothing but 0s and 1s by using only the architectures opcodes. Good Luck! Even advanced languages such as C/C++ Java, C# and Python wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Assembly!
You also stated "Why do I have to move everything by reference"? Because when you write in assembly you are dealing with the hardware directly and when you are working with the hardware you have to load values into registers, set the data paths for either the arithmetic or logic operations, check the status flags, or do branching conditions for control flow. You have to assign memory addresses and you have to calculate them accurately. You have to handle the stack pointer and other special registers for handling function calls and return from functions calls or loops (block statements). You have to handle I/O operations and interrupts. You have to handle some exceptions where the Assembler, Compiler and OS will handle others for your. You have to know how to do pointer arithmetic and know how to assign memory address and how and when to access them. For example a block of code in C/C++ that looks like this:
for ( int i = 0; i < 10; i ++ ) {
//std::cout
"But it doesn't do anything!"
"No, it does nothing"
Gotta be one of my favorite cards and flavor texts.
Which card?
It's null road
@@pain648 cool thx
I thought it was an Un card, sounded like it
Next up:
*"I CAN RUN DOOM ON MAGIC THE GATHERING"*
Nobody
Todd Howard: Skyrim will now be available in Magic the Gathering
No, this means you can run *any game* on MTG.
@@markfergerson2145
Even Fortnite 😂😂😂
@@tj5100 Yeah, but you'd need a lot of cards. And the frame rate would be pretty shit to say the least
Just try not to run Crysis, or your deck will spontaneously combust.
I think the scariest part is the "Legacy Legal" aspect. Imagine a pro player getting the perfect hand and assembling Robo Cop
TIL it's theoretically possible for a game of Magic to run an AI that plays another game of Magic.
...Magic can literally play itself
Not really, since this is a turing machine, but an AI computer needs a bit more. For example this setup has no way to really safe and load states on demand. There is no RAM. I am not well versed on the matter to tell if it would be possible if you had a sufficient number of games interacting with each other. But I dont think so.
We already have Shahrazad
gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Shahrazad
you know that there are other decks like that, even some that are actually easy to play.
@jshowa o The computer though, has no I/O. It has the initial state and the end state but you can't modify it interactively.
@jshowa oEven if you play that as AI vs AI with preset, pre-shuffled decks there's no way to actually shuffle the deck if a card tells you to - no good source of entropy to seed the RNG. All input, including the random seed would be pre-determined and same tape would always produce same result, even where in real game luck of the draw would be the deciding factor.
"So do you win?"
"Well, let me tell you about the halting problem..."
If the tape has been set up to calculate 2+2, then maths can prove that the game will halt and Kyle will win.
If it's been set up to look for an integer that is the square root of 3, maths can prove the game will be an infinite loop (and thus a draw by the rules of Magic).
If it's been set up to, say, look for a pair of twin primes greater than one million... does the game halt or not? MATHS DOESN'T KNOW YET! Muahahaha!
I'm assuming that you "win" when the conditions on the "halt" card are met, which was based on the creatures and colors, I think
Exactly! -- kH
@@alextfish But due to the recent twin primes conjecture we know there are infinitely many twin primes. The game may or may not halt, but a sufficiently large TM with a sufficiently large tape could do it. It just might take several orders of magnitude longer than the heat death of the universe to do so. You know, an afternoon for KH.
@@soranuareane The twin prime conjecture has not been proven. You may have been confused by headlines talking about a related conjecture that was proved for finite fields.
I’d love to see this deck built/used in arena or online just to see how the game interprets that
Arena doesn't have the needed cards.
Trigger/stack is coded. it would run like this version shown here, except more laggy, cuz arena.
It would probably just crash. That's Arena's answer to every problem.
Arena would be able to run another instance of Arena inside of that game. 🤣
Mtgo>arena
I love how Kyle is a goofball but he gets REALLY serious while playing
In a calculus exam...
Everybody: _Pulls out a calculator_
Me: *Pulls out a deck of cards*
LMAO
You’ll also need a classmate xD
Not really
But
Idk
This reminds of a DnD greentext where a lich built a computer out of skeletons by giving roles equivalent to diferent types of computer circuitry so that he could get infinite mana.
*By the Emperor, it's the Emperor!*
19:12 “more research is needed” - need, uh, need might be a strong word.
Haha na it's exactly the right word 😂
@20:31 We simplify Magic usually to narrow formats. And thus in the abstract Magic could be complex and computational enormous (infinite). However, real world Magic is never played this way. Where Go and Chess are played at higher levels.
Could we have Turing Magic tournaments? Yes. But that’s a bunch of math nerds who are demonstrating this is possible.
"I CAN FIT THROUGH THE DOGGY DOOR!" haha Kyle is so funny and this is the only thing that didn't go over my head this episode...
Agreed
You can tell the command zone guys did not expect him to say that either with they way they both bust up laughing.
1946: Computer that runs on Vaccum Tubes.
2019: Computer that requires a human's hand as data buses and a human brain as the CPU and a pack of cards that can nowhere be found. Additionally requires a new programming language to be derived to make logic. Respect++.
If this thing works theoretically in an automatic fashion, it might be the fastest computer as it can have way more states than a normal computer has ie 10 in binary.
Actually, this board state perfectly encapsulates an actual Turing Machine, which only stores and outputs 1s and 0s
@@ben_clifford Except you could potentially push it further, and store 0-4 with the colors of magic. Which would only take tweaks in the set up I believe.
It also stores names to creature types, which... that's just really in depth storage. 247 different creature types.
You could skip the middle step though, in any practical sense.
You can create a turing machine just using a human being, and depending on how good their memory is, a pencil and paper.
And that sounds kinda obvious, since humans can do maths, but...
What I mean is you could construct a turing machine using a person where the only thing they have to know is how to do an update cycle of the turing machine state, which is a fairly simple operation.
That means you could use the person to 'calculate' some arbitrary complex thing without them having any idea what exactly they are being instructed to work out.
@@ben_clifford @anxez Turing Machines can use any number of symbols. In this case, the Universal Turing Machine they are using has 18 different symbols, encoded in the creature types, and two States, encoded in the two sets of alternating phasing creatures.
@IRockerbacon if we don't convert and directly use it as its base is, it may be used to make it work with more States like it's done in quantum computing 3 states 0,1 and superposition. But to make it work we all know more research is needed.
You just made THE nerdiest thing on the internet, congratulations!
Yeah by far the nerdiest thing I've ever watched on YT :D !
0:10 Magic is not a board game, it is a card game. Sorry for the nitpicking, I just had to get that off my chest.
Two people agreed with you enough to like the comment
Although you are right
3 now@@thebanman2293
I mean, you're right. There's no board. At best, there are playing mats.
Also: I want to set this up on MTGO and pull off the lock and let the computer process all the triggers. Let's see just how solid MTGOs rules system is lol
lsv has broken MTGO multiple times due to infinite forced loops. There's a video on ChannelFireball's RUclips channel involving three looping Oblivion Rings that can only target each other. Search for "lsv breaks MTGO." The answer to "how solid is MTGO's rules system?" is not very.
I've seen that video, and to be fair, that is proof that the rules system is working exactly as intended. However it is unable to determine and infinite repeating loop which is a tricky thing to calculate accurately. That is also only having to track a minimal set of triggers. This however is MANY many more triggers in specific orders. Would be curious if the stack in MTGO would have issues handling the complicated interactions.
@@asdffjsdjasd Except the program isn't necessarily an infinite loop, computing 2 + 2 = 4 would end with you winning the game, and thus returning out of the program the result 4 as displayed on the tape (in whatever representation it was programmed to do so).
Even if MTGO wasn't made of wet cardboard, it would time out.
Man I feel sorry for your opponent not having any clue what is happening, followed by 2+2=4 in the chat
"See dad? I'm not wasting my money on cardboard! It's computer science!"
I now draw... MY ENTIRE DECK!!!
*players and onlookers gasps in disbelief*
The Thrasios Tymna player: Yeah, I've seen that one already.
I know nothing about this game, but watching him draw the entire deck on his turn just has an aura of power. the ultimate flex. Just so casual: so now I have infinity of everything and I draw my deck.
Infinite combos aren't uncommon but also not consistent
@@DefaultMii I have no memory of this place…
"So do you win?"
"Oh, I don't know, I scoop."
LOL
BUT he had that "halt" card (every color mana, every color creature). So there is a potential win condition!
@@Machtyn There were a number of win conditions I saw, though I'm not sure if any of them are actually triggerable. That said, I was literally quoting a line from the vid.
@@Machtyn I think the "instruction" cards that make up the library have to be set up to meet the win condition, and that one was just set up to move one space. It seems like it would just move off the end of the tape and blue screen.
It might have been impossible to tell, if someone would've won this game. This is known as the halting problem: In general it is impossible to tell, if a Turing-machine will eventually stop (e.g. someone wins the game) (Of course for some configurations of a Turing-machine you can tell, but it's impossible to generalize for all machines + inputs)
@@TomGalonska ok i thought you could programm it so that you stop with coalition victory and win after x cycles. Of course that needs the right adjustments and preparation. But thats just a result of the computing to have the win condition.
it really amazes me that I can watch a game of modern yugioh at double speed and pretty perfectly understand whats going on
but listening to almost anything being said during the game just confuses me.
There are many turn 1 Overkill Decks in legacy
Kyle: hold my magic markers
I love how Kyle is the perfect embodiment of Izzet
As a Engineering student and as a Magic: The Gathering (and combo) player, this is one of the most interesting things I've ever seen. Thanks for posting this video, Kyle.
Waiting for that inevitable moment when one of the cards in this setup gets some minor errata and it completely hoses the whole thing.
it is a gimmick deck, it either works or explodes brilliantly,
Teacher: u playin that stupid card game again.
Kyle: nah im doin maths.
Teacher: "Alright class, no calculators."
Me: "I'll just be working on my PhD thesis back here."
I love how Thor passionately explains how a magic board game can theoretically become a computer
It’s not Magic, it’s just highly sophisticated science that looks like magic ...
It is playing its cards and following its rules. It IS magic, and it is possible.
Gonzalo Vittori you missed the Thor joke .
It's not that it looks like magic but rather its indistinct from magic.
Dr. Stone approved!
Or you could say, It's highly sophisticated science that looks like magic, the gathering
16:07 "You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts." That fits this video perfectly.
The only problem with this Magic computer is that to run it quickly and reliably would require... a computer.
Yeah, kinda reminds me of those people who make functioning computers out of Redstone in Minecraft.
Well, a more immediate problem is it's an inefficient use or resources, since it requires a human being to do the steps.
Which means... You could skip the whole magic game and just get a person with maybe a pencil and piece of paper to help them depending on how good their memory is...
And ask them to compute something by getting them to repeatedly update a turing machine state.
The person doesn't need to know what the program does - they just need to follow a predetermined sequence that constitutes a single state update of the turing machine, and iterate over the input data set until they get a result.
Same outcome, much easier for a person to handle, requires fewer resources, and can, due to the simple nature of the 'update' calculation, be determined much faster...
Somebody also made a computer in Super Mario Maker.
I didn’t understand anything but the sounds and colours where pretty.
I play this game daily and I only understood half the interactions.
Igual
"So after all this... what does the deck actually do?"
"Oh I programmed it to run MTG: Arena. Wanna play a game?"
Someone should do this on Magic Online and see what happens.
You'd see someone forfeit immediately.
No one in real life or online is going to just let you sit there and do this.
or xmage!
@@ContactingTheDead Then play with a friend?
@@aidanhood5483 Could you legit make it through the setup turn before your clock ran out?
The setup requires three specific cards that give you infinite mana (plus a few more to play them all turn 1). You're not going to pull that off without the other player scrambling for some card that ruins your nana engine, never mind everything else.
Teacher: 2 + 2 equals?
Me: *take out the deck; Give me 30 minutes or so to compute that.
Game of Dungeons and Dragons:
Cleric: "What's 2 plus 2?"
DM: (rolls die) "The orc says, 'Three?'"
Does that count as Turing Complete?
Nope
it needs to be automatic some homebrew abilities can do if made
@@lorekeeper685 Good point. There's some opportunity somewhere in all D&D/Pathfinder.
Or at least Munchkin.
@@davidscott4919 yup
@@davidscott4919 dnd has alot of fail safes to prevent players from using magic items in conjunction to create better effects but since the world can technically have anything in it, given enough time, players could build just a normal turing machine
Some fellows came up with the idea of a skeleton computer.
Many thousands of skeletons, each raising a hand based on if then statements given to them and recorded by other skeletons and it just goes on and on until you get what's effectively an actual computer
Imagine if the one game he had the combo, Josh said "Turn 1, thought seize"