Ridiculously complicated :)) I recommend using PCBs with UV sensitive coating on them -> Sodium Metasillicate (as developer) -> Ammonium Persulfate (as etchant). Much cleaner and faster (the whole process takes less then 10-15 minutes, including exposure (also - I expose only for 70 seconds on my DIY exposure unit - precise and fast. just needs to warm-up for a bit before the exposing starts)
I did the old making PCBs at home for years, i use to buy the exposure type copper clads, i don't anymore, I do this now: 1. design your board on your favorite PCB program 2. convert files to gerber 3. go on ebay and find a inexpensive PCB manufacturer 4. send files, get quote, and if satisfied, pay them. 5. wait for delivery. trust me, I went the manufacturing method and I've never look back!
+BCcreativeInnovation I do some of each. I use electrodragon when I need 10 big boards dual side and can wait. They do up to 10cmx10cm for ~$20. I use Osh park for smaller boards. I print my own when I want a PCB in 30 minutes
Great video! Thought I'd share a helpful tip... A few years ago I accidentally spilled a bunch of FeCl in my bath tub, which is when I learned how much of a staining disaster that stuff can cause. Turns out though, scrubbing with CLR took it right out of the enamel! Might be worth experimenting with if you've spilled it anywhere (like your sink)
I'm gonna try the 3 in 1 oil you recommended. I do imaging with a vacuum press frame at the moment. II happened to have a vacuum hot plate (for seperating lcds from their top glass). The vacuum is switchable independently from the heat. I built a plexi box with hinged lid and front door then painted it black. I drilled holes in bottom and used weather stripping to form a oval I lay the board and transparancy inside. I then lay glass on top, hit the button for vacuum and the glass draws down compressing weather stripping and pusshing transparancy into CC/film. I think adding the 3in1 will make results perfect. Also I liked your tip about how to save a board where the resist stayed in places it shouldnt have. Ive lost a few to that (just yesterday actually) Wish i had seen this sooner! I have a few ideas for you/anyone looking to etch... 1) cupric choloride: if you have outside space you could consider switching to cupric chloride, its going to take forever to make it if you use pharmacy hydrogen peroxide...trick is go to sally beauty and buy volume 40 hair bleach. Its 12% peroxide. Beauty of cupric is you just bubble air into it or add peroxide to regenerate. unless you never want to etch again you can always reuse it. no waste disposal required until your relatives have buried you . Cupric works best with a vertical bubble or spray etch system. I used plexy to build a vertical bubbler tank.. A good tip here is you can get a chemical weld between plexi sheets using acetone and light clamping pressure (it grabs in less than 5min but keep light pressure on it for 12--24 hrs). My tank is welded and siliconed on both sides as an extra precaution. I used 2 fish tank air pumps and aquarium air hose glued to the bottom of thank. Before inserting into tank I made bubble holes along the lengh that would sit at the bottom. I did this byI pressing a jumper wire (with header pin end) against the plastic hose and then touched soldering iron to it until it melted a small hole. Move down half an inc; repeat.. Im in an apt and outside is my 3rd story patio so I also built a "weather" enclosure for the tank and a rinse tray out of 2x4, 1x6 and plexi lining. This allows it to not tip/spill acid in high winds/storms. It saves me from having a tank of cupric inside a small apartment. It saves my patio from contamination and my ass from eviction. . The idea was make it strong enough/heavy enough so wind would have to rip the balcony off the apt before acid spilled. If that were to happen the building damage would probably over shadow the acid issue(lol). the toxic part isnt the acid itself its the copper salts with in. Cupric is capable of chlorine fumes but that mainly happens when you first make it. The diff between it and ferric is that with cupric you dissolve copper in it before you do your etches so it contains those salts from the start. Once you have used ferric its just as toxic. Aka its not really much more of a risk than ferric if you do your homework. Making your batch of cupric is defiantly an outside away from building or fume hood thing but once you have it its much more tame. Last i wanted to say...ferric isnt that nasty if not hot...if you have no cuts on your hand cold ferric isnt going to do much more than stain. great video overall!
lol sorry for the mess that was. I cleaned it up a bit (i need to get "proof read" tattooed on my hand.). have you tried building things with plexi and acetone? if you have a circular saw... harbor freight has an 80tooth 10inch blade that isnt made to cut plexi but works like a charm on the miter and table saw ive used it in. . I think it costs 26 bucks. Thats what ultimately what opened the door to the world of plastics for me. I need to replace it now because I cut aluminum with it but for 26 bucks its hard to go wrong. one last thing i forgot above: have you switched to led yet? digi key has a 4.1w 365nm led. Bright AF. you will need to build a sheilding box around it so you dont end up with fakatka vision ;)
I actually do a lot with plexi, but never needed acetone. I can cut whatever I need pretty much on my mill. If I needed something to fit together, I could just print a tooth-pattern (see newest video). I have switched to LEDs. Though 4.1W is way anemic. I got a 100W one from china and pump about 50W through it. Sped my exposure process way up.
ive got an outrunner brushless motor on order from the land of buyer be ware that i intend to turn into a drill press first and cnc later. problem is most of the mods to do that require a cnc machine to begin with. I need to add an extra bearing further down the shank to take stress off motor during lateral movement. There is a metal shop down the street from me that I might convince to do it for cheap but its all up in the air. 50w led? whats the wavelength though? afaik most resists respond best to 350-380nm. When i was looking into it even multi watt LEDs in those wavelengths were experiments in a lab or hella $$$ just 3 years or so ago. aka...idk i would trust one hung low brands output with out a spectrometer. If you are putting out 50w at 390nm-420nm it might not actually be as power full to the resist as 4w at 365-380. speculation asside my exposures seem to work in 2 min. They will probably be less when I source low iron glass. i just tried the oil with my press rig...holy fucking sharp lines! damn banana plug on + was a bit crushed and i realized it about 45 seconds into one side (realized psu fan was fluctuating looked over and saw power level doing same on display) so i hope i got full exposure but regardless im really impressed. I double layer transparancy on both sides so i shot it inbetween the layers too...of to dev.
385nm - it completely cures in about 3-4 seconds at 2 feet. After about 6 seconds, the masked area cures, too :-p. I don't understand your last paragraph, though. Which oil? 3-in-1?
I've never seen someone that intimate with a etching bath, i can see it gives a lot of control. Good video. I'm preparing Cu(2)Cl myself though, I'm not sure if i want my hand in that wearing household gloves for long. I don't know how these acids compare. Don't get drops on anything metallic, thats for sure though.
Good video, I do it a bit differently: I don't use water when laminating the resist, just do it dry. I have to double-up the mask becase the printer leaves holes, and I don't use oil, just hold it down with a sheet of glass and some weights. I cut the boards out with a multitool and chip-breaker router bit - I find shears can often delaminate and wreck the material.
I used to apply the resist dry, and I used to do it without the oil. But, the oil makes the mask much more forgiving, and the water makes it so you don't get those annoying imperfections and bubbles of air. I also used to use a dremel with a cutting bit. The problem I had with that was the dust it generated got into the gears and destroyed the tool. Apparently fiberglas dust is terrible for machines :(. I have had trouble with some shears on PCBs from providers, but, I found a guy on ebay that sells super high quality PCBs, and haven't had any problems with them :). Are you still able to get fine pitch when you double-up masks?
CNLohr Well, I use the same tool for drilling etc, so it's going to get fibreglass dust around it anyway. Might as well using it for cutting outing too. I have had no problem with doubling up masks. As long as I take care and align them properly. I have successfully produced boards that included LQFP-48 packages - 0.2mm pads with 0.5mm pitch. Good enough for me!
I'm so jealous of your results. I just tried dry film for the first time a few days ago. After watching this I see I've over exposed my film, need to try the water application technique, 3 in 1 oil trick, and I can get more aggressive than a cotton swab for rubbing stubborn areas of an etch. Thx for the tips. -Jake
CNLohr I just did my first successful double sided etch today. The water emulsion/vinyl graphics style application of the Chinese dry film made a massive difference. I also used a 1/2 folded paper towel between my iron and the board instead of the different papers I had tried before. That made a big difference too. The paper towel distributes the heat way differently than a piece of paper, card stock, or news print. I did need to use scissors to keep from pulling on the dry film though because the film stuck to the paper towel far more than other forms of paper. The biggest difference though was a 2 minute sunlight based exposure time. I think it was even a bit too much. Clearly a 5 min exposure was creating lots of problems before. I need to try distilled water with my sodium carbonate next. I'm still getting some stubborn areas that don't want to etch. I can't detect any remaining evidence of film in those areas, but something is still not dialed in very well. Running my sodium carbonate through an old retired coffee grinder seemed to help it dissolve better. I haven't drilled the board yet, but it's a 4"×6" board with 4 TO-252 FETs, low side shunts, a LM324 based current sense amplifier, and a CD4050 buffer for good measure on the gates. It's really basic stuff for switching a 4 channel LED strip bench lighting setup. I've designed it as a separate block with screw terminal inputs/outputs so I can reuse the design elsewhere later too. I also borrowed the current sense amplifier topology from the cheap Chinese dual volt/current meters, but adapted it to a 324 instead of the 1/2 LM358. I also used an AMS1117 adjustable Vreg on the board with an intended preset voltage of 3v3. I can't believe it came out so well on the first try. I used your oil trick too. I just used my bike chain oil, some Prolink Gold. My results are good, and my best yet. The oil made me nervous though bc I couldn't get all of the air bubbles out and couldn't figure out which layer they were in, but the results are good. I actually forgot to flip the back side of the board's transparency in software prior to printing, but my design only has a few traces on the back and is mostly ground plane so I just exposed it with the ink side away from the board. Even with all of that I can see my small drill guide pin holes through both sides of the traces. I also highly recommend using fill planes on any possible wire nets and running the final image through GIMP to teardrop all pads and smooth all intersections. Those additions to my workflow made a big difference when it comes to how the dry film developed. Plus GIMP gives much better resolution control than any other printing alternative I have used so far. Thanks for the tips and motivation. It really helped me step it up a notch ;) -Jake
Woaoaahh that's a big comment. I'm hearting this for future checking. I'm really glad to see the oil helped. And, I never thought about the purposes of the paper towels, they're just soemthing I started doing... Let me know about your developer stage and what improvements you make there. I feel like my method just isn't that good.
CNLohr I want to try distilled water with developer like I mentioned. The other tip I saw recently was to try to etch the board for around 30 seconds at the very beginning before applying film. The intent is to maximize the surface "tooth," or to put it another way, to maximize the surface area chemically instead of mechanically. The issues I'm seeing at the end of my etch visually resemble a chemical contamination issue. There's a certain kind of blotchy consistency that reminds me of stuff I used to deal with while painting cars. I know my surface prep is sufficient. If I were to have surface contamination issues they should follow the mechanical imperfections of my surface prep instead of a natural random blotchy consistency. I imagine the problems could be related to the quality of materials used too. I'll try to order some copper clad from MG Chemicals on my next major distributor order. My next steps are to try pre-etching as a surface prep, try preheating the copper clad to ensure it is moisture free, use distilled water with my sodium carbonate developer, and try switching to virgin lacquer thinner for surface prep (stronger solvent/cleaner chemically/less damaging to the user as acetone goes right through the skin on contact [no one wears gloves ALL the time]). I'm also interested in either trying to concentrate my old pre-diluted ferric chloride from the last days of Radio Shack or playing around with hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide soon. I asked the YT CC Nurd Rage to do a DIY tutorial for a PCB tinning solution awhile back and they showed how to make it using hydrochloric acid, hydrogen peroxide, 95+% tin, and thauria from a consumer level silver polish like tarnex. I could always go buy tinning solution but the advertised shelf life is rather short after opening, and that stuff is super expensive for such a small step in the process. I really want to master uv solder masks so I can place traces between pins or under some types of components in the future. I need a flatter tinned surface though. Tinning solutions seem a lot easier than creating a large solder pot/(redneck) makeshift wave solder setup. I can't seem to tin an entire board with an iron and get it flat enough to justify attempting a solder mask.. at least not yet. I just tried yesterday. I coated the entire board in a thick buttered layer of flux. Then I tinned the board completely using a minimum amount of solder keeping it as flat as possible. There were still some high spots especially on the larger ground plane side. I cleaned off the flux completely, then I used 600 grit sandpaper to level everything that was high as much as possible. Then I covered the board in flux again and applied an iron on everything. It's the flattest surface I've been able to achieve but there are still too many inconsistencies and I'm nervous about applying any more heat to areas with smaller traces. I also tried hot air but didn't like the results I was seeing. Lastly, I tested all of my permanent markers on the edges of this past etch. I've seen a lot of internet banter about sharpies and such. I have used the dirt cheap Chinese art markers marketed as etching markers. I use them quite a bit for making quick breakout boards for stuff like TO-252 or TO-263 packages. On this board I tried sharpies in silver, black, red, yellow, blue, and green, along with the Chinese permanent marker. The Chinese marker bests all sharpies by a considerable amount. The black sharpie barely works. All the rest were totally ineffective, with the silver producing an unusual chemical reaction local to where it was applied. It's a shame I'm working on my bench lighting and can't film this stuff very well until I'm done. I'd like to share some of this, although I don't really like filming my first attempt on anything. Have you tried any alternative tinning methods or solder masks? ;) -Jake
In another video (ruclips.net/video/CrdheP3Dwyc/видео.html) a guy (bigclive) used a spritz of water instead of submersion. Looked like it worked great. I'm going to try that next time.
Thank you for the video. You are pretty good doing the presentation, I just wanted to advise you to be careful with the chemicals, specially with the acetone. The acetone vapors can cause cancer. Make sure you use air filters and have good ventilation.
Acetone is not a known or suspected carcinogen. Check the MSDS. Not even California lists it. If it was, every nail technician in the world would be dead of cancer.
I don't know why people still use ferric chloride. It is messy, takes ages and you have to take out the board all the time to see the progress. I use sodium persulfate almost exclusively. It's clear and doesn't leave stains (but will bleach clothes). Hydrochloric acid/hydrogen peroxide is another option (also clear and very fast). I don't use it because of potential chlorine fumes (only happens when you do something wrong) as I do my etching in a not so well ventilated basement. If you are doing boards more often, I'd also suggest buying boards with photoresist already on it.
+superdau I have tried everything else, etchant wise. I'm willing to deal with ferric chloride because it is so nice and fast. It is critical for when I need my PCBs in 30 minutes. I have even tried boards with existing photoresist. Riston is just soooooo good, and soooo cheap.
+CNLohr I can make my PCBs in 15 ;) and I don't need a laminator. But if it works for you... Have you tried UV tubes for exposing the PCB? They give a more uniform light and don't take long to warm up. I got a face tanner from ebay for 1€ in spring when people chuck them out and moved the 4 tubes including the reflector to the insides of an old scanner (it's almost as if the two were made for each other). It's at most an afternoon project and the results are much more consistent. Since you can lay the printout on the glass (toner side facing PCB), the PCB on top of it and close the lid of the scanner, there's no need to mess around with oil because the template will be pressed flush against the PCB all the time. Exposure takes around 60 seconds. And I'm not even using laser transparencies but normal tracing paper. It's cheaper than the transparencies and for the sharp edges you need for PCBs I had way too much variation in print quality between different batches/manufaturers of transparencies.
+superdau I have never tried UV tubes because of the non-columnation of the light, i.e. when I get it from a close to point source, the two layers of the transparencies. I just assumed it would give me worse accuracy toward the 0.5mm bsc parts. The rest of this is rather interesting, and I would really appreciate a video about your process since I would imagine it would be difficult to try to fit this in a comment. Perhaps one day PCB hobbists will vie for fastest, most precise PCB manufaturing. You do it in 15, I'll see if I can do it in 14?
+CNLohr I'm in, I like this idea a lot. If I can ever get off my ass / fix my fine pitch issues with my prototype, I'll get around to doing a proper video of bright, durable plated through-holes. (ThinkTink as source, plus a month of hard research) What kind of Epson is that? Have you ever noticed shrinkage with the laser transparencies? I wasted money on a crap budget Samsung printer, sucks for toner density. Was an M2020W. The fusor warps the transparency... it's Apollo brand. Any tips? What kinda transparency paper you currently using? Great video, very informative. Let's give those board houses a run for their money!
I've all but abandoned through-holes now. I have never found a quick way of dealing with them :(. I hope you do post - I love reading about tweaks on HaD. I actually use A kyocera C170N. It's a laser printer which requires specifically laser printer transparencies, which seem much more robust and sturdy than normal transparencies. I double-up my layers all the time now, to get the extra black, as the printer no longer dumps out enough toner.
When I make PCB, I use hydrogen peroxide and muriatic acid, they both are cheaper to buy then the ferric chloride. The development is some time faster with H2O2 and HCL, then FeCl3. I use the toner transfer method and glossy paper, like paper from magazines. For small prototype I think its the best solution. btw Nice video :D
I used toner transfer for a long time, but now, after switching to the photo process, I realize it really is a lot better. It's much more reliable and clean. I was able to do .5mm BSC parts with toner transfer, but my yeild on large boards was worse. Any imperfections in the surface of the PCB doomed me. Additionally, I am surprised you use magazine instead of toner transfer paper. The dextrose? coated side comes up more cleanly than magazine paper. I will consider the H2O2+HCL etchant. In fact, I have both of those chemicals on hand.
CNLohr In the country where I live, its extremely hard to find materials for this, pay-pal block us (and the most of other sites with online banking) so we are sticked wit the materials that you can find easily. The magazine paper was one of the best solutions, its glossy (with some-kind of dextrose ?!).
You can definitely pour acetone down the drain ... you just need to dilute it sufficiently. It's not toxic at all, in fact your body produces and consumes acetone when you're fasting for example, a process called ketosis. You will even piss some of it away. If you don't dilute, it can indeed dissolve some plastics. But you can also just let it stand, it evaporates extremely fast.
2:00 ... you also put it Ink side down because UV Light will diffuse through the transparent film and under the ink and you'll get shadows, blur and broken tracks. 4:00 ... a friend of mine put his finger in some blue colored Sodium based copper etching solution and told me that it's not concentrated enough because it didn't burn his finger. LoL
You are so intelligent and outstanding.And i want to ask a question about that how do you solve the drilling , solder mask, silkscreen and surface treatment question?We are the professional PCB manufacturer,so our product often made by machine,this is the first time that i have seen the board made by hands.
There are hobbyists who use UV-reactive films for solder mask, and silk screen. You can also iron-on from a laser printer surfaces. I've only ever used liquid tin surface treatment, many others use solder surface treatments. Normally, I prefer bare copper because I use my PCBs right after I print them. And tons of peeps do thru-hole drilling! I just don't like through-hole components because they're harder to work with.
Nice video man. May I ask you a question? This is the first time I hear about overexposing the board to the UVs, and this is actually a question I have never been answered, so... Why do the overexposure should make the photoresist harder to remove? I'm asking because I've had this issue a lot of times... my cured photoresist films doesn't remove easily, even with high concentration of NaOH (both with spray photoresist ones as well as expensive presensitized boards), so I eventually ruin even the uncured ones. For some reasons I'm using a 5 mins time of exposing with 8x8W Philips UV lights, about 20 centimeters above the board. Should I try reducing this time? Thanks a lot!
I appreciate the time in showing this to us. I have had pretty good success with just a vinyl cutter and PCB Etchant Solution from radioshack this cuts down on the cleaning process and complex removal process.
Actually there is no problem with pouring ferric chloride down the drain. If you think about it - it takes up to 10 minutes(depending on concentration and temperature) to eat out super-tiny layer of copper from small area board. It does very little if any damage to thick non-copper metal tubes in your pipe system. And if you are still worried - mix it with cold water, then it will be useless in eating anything at all. Actually some other domestic chemistry does more damage than used ferric chloride.You can also use ammonium persulfate for etching - it is even softer, no worries about pipes too.
I asked someone who explained that it was because ferric chloride attacks the iron in the septic treatment plants. Once I got ferric chloride on steel wool, and it got very scary very fast.
CNLohr btw I also managed to clean the stains from the ferric chloride on my bathroom floor, it seemed very hard at first, but then I just poured some strong cleaning household stuff and waited for an hour, then it came off quite easily.
CNLohr I think I mixed a bunch of creams for cleaning ceramic surfaces and I also added the spray for kitchen's metal surfaces. Kinda like mixed 3 or 4 different stuff, don't know what exactly helped. But I think the trick is to leave it there for a while and then wash it away, not try to make it in 5 minutes.
You can mix a great etching solution from readily available household chemicals. Mix 100 ml 3% hydrogen peroxide, 20 grams of citric acid, add a teaspoon or two of salt, and you have a great etching solution. It is transparent and has a higher oxidation-reduction potential than iron(III)chloride. Plus, it does not stain and is harmless, save for a minuscule amount of gas released from the solution while etching. One disadvantage is that the solution is not storable.
Citric acid? Okay, you have said words that may make me finally try something other than THE WONDERFUL FERRIC CHLORIDE OF WHICH NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY BE BETTER BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER TRIED ANYTHING ELSE. Ok mostly kidding, but really, I do actually want to give this a try now.
CNLohr just pour it down the toilet. And btw, what does it mean "more even"? Does it over-etch? Is it too slow? You can heat it up, or add another 10 grams of citric acid, plus some more salt... FeCl3 is more expensive than this mixture. But maybe it's less expensive where you live :)
This mixture seemed to eat away at smaller parts and leave big parts more than ferric chloride... not a lot, so I could be wrong. And... It's got a fair bit of copper dissolved in it... I dunno about that going straight down the drain.
Would that laminator be able to transfer the toner right from the transparency onto the board? I think it would be awesome to cut out that whole middle section...
@@stevenyoung3168 i know this is old but maybe it will help someone. Theres two kinds of film, negative resist and positive resist. You want the positive film to do the process like he shows. negative film requires inverted artwork. ie, positive film means your traces are black
Very good video, interesting and entertaining! I also like your method of etching a lot, I'm using a different etching liquid which is a little less aggressive, but yours is much easier to use and the results are awesome! Moreover, I really like the idea of using oil for the exposure process! I will definitely keep that in mind next time!
Sodium Hydroxide does the exact same thing as the acetone does. The only difference is that it's much more environmentally friendly. You CAN pour it down the drain as that is what it was made for. Letting acetone evaporate is very bad as then it's air pollution. Another comment is that the Ferric Chloride is not the best etchant IMO. Copperic Chloride (50/50 Hydrochloric Acid to Hydrogen Peroxide mix) can be used forever if you keep bubbling air through it. Many other good points for it also.
1) Acetone is not dangerous for the environment. It is naturally produced by all animals. It is naturally decomposed by sunlight when evaporated (22-day half-life) and other environmental factors if trapped, as well as biological processes. THAT SAID... I do now use Sodium Hydroxide. It works out better for glass PCB processes, allowing the film to flake off rather than dissolve. But, just want to make sure no one who reads this thinks acetone is bad for the environment. 2) HCl is just AWFUL to use inside. It stinks up the house and is awful if you don't have a ton of ventilation. FeCl is almost odorless, and has minimal evaporative toxicity when etching. It's also very easy to dispose of at virtually any chemical waste collection site.
will try this method because i tried making one board which has 0.5mm tracks close to each other and 0.5mm spaces between them, and i tried making it like 6 times with toner transfer with iron but whenever i try to take paper of some is ripping apart, or i get board right and i etch it with b327 some smaller tracks get eaten away
Size and precision was what got me to riston. I HAVE BEEN successful with boards like that and toner transfer, but, it usually takes many attempts and looks awful at the end.
I've never used boards with the resist on them already. I mean I tried a few times but I'm just so bad at them, I gave up. Others have had good luck, but I am totally tied to Riston now.
how long is this process for you for those pcbs you did in the video.. and do you happen to have a pdf or something step by step by any chance.. if not its cool. Thanks for the video... i will try and replicate this and start making some pcbs.
understood, thx for quick response. i still don't feel like buying a laminator tho XD so ill try using the iron with some small insignificant circuit and see if it works. ill let u know how it goes.
No, the heatgun is difficult to control the temperature on. A toaster oven helps you control it a little better. Additionally, Bismuth solder paste gives you a huge margin of error. The solder melts at such a low temperature.
Don Cornwall That is the method I use as well. Not as hazardous and clear so you can check the progress easier. Waste goes right down the drain. I will never go back to Ferric Chloride again!!
PLEASE don't pour it down the drain!!! It's a severe environmental hazard. Just keep it and keep using it. Keep bubbling air through it and it will keep working.
Why are you using ferric chloride? There are way better things like Copper Chloride in Aqueous Hydrochloric Acid Solution. When I made my own boards, I had some HCl so i just made my own and also you can control how aggressive solution you want. Also with just HCl and Hydrogen peroxide you get Extremely violent echant which can later convert to the first mentioned solution. anyways WAY better than FeCl . Really hated that thing when I tried it. EDIT: Also this has been talked about by others as well. Should have guessed. EDIT2: also the violence depends on the mixture and dilution... doh.
It mostly depends on how much acid are you willing to let evaporate. If you get something like 30/70 mixture of acid and peroxide you can get away with few seconds of etching. I used 60%clean HCl and 70% peroxide. That fumed the room up so that not using special chamber was not an option. Also tried with 5% and 6% mixture. That worked nicely, albeit slower.
Its sooo much safer (instead of ferric chloride) to use hydrogen peroxide, salt, and white vinegar. It takes a few more minutes but the trade off is worth it. IMO.
Check this guys, It might be useful for you. It will make thinks a little bit easier, well I write about what he said in the video in steps. - Method 1: Using [ Photoresist Film ] - WARNING: Be sure your PCB board is all cleaned up, use acetone to clean it. - Step #1: Print your PCB project on a transparency film - Step #2: Cut the amound of PCB and photoresist film - Step #3: Apply the photoresist film underwater on the copper PCB - Step #4: Apply 2 sheets of normal paper on the top of the protoresist film and inject them all together into the laminator, then throw the sacrificial paper away - Step #5: Spill some Use 3 in one oil on the photoresist film and then apply the trasparency film (Try to get as more bubbles out between the photoresist film and transparency film, the ink on the transparency film have to face the PCB copper) - Step #6: Expose the PCB to strong UV light for the fair amound of time deppended on the PCB board. (Try to not let it become purple inside PCB cause it won't come off in the development proccess) - Step #7: Peel off the transparency film and wipe clean the 3 in one oil. - WARNING: Be sure to use at least eye protectiong cause ferric chloride is dangerous - Step #8: Use the right amound ferric chloride and water on a glass container and put the PCB board in and wait for the fair amound of time of time deppended on your PCB board - Step #9: Check if the etching was a succsess, hold the PCB board up to the light and check for failures, if you have etching failures, put it back to the ferric chloride and try to rub it using your gloves - Step #10: Spill some acetone on the PCB board so the photoresist film will come off wape off the remainings with a paper towel gently so the board won't get damaged - Step #11: Use a cutting device to cut the PCB board (I personally use dremel, electric rotary drill grinder)
I'm just getting in to PCB production at home using similar methods. I don't have a laminator so I've been experimenting with an iron to apply the photoresist coating, though I haven't quite mastered that yet! As for etching, I use a polythene bag and a slide binder, which works really well. I got the idea from this video - ruclips.net/video/nTQRRER1MOY/видео.htmlm50s. Nice idea with the 3in1 oil, I've been wondering how to get a decent adherence between the transparency and the board.
So, I've watched a few more of your videos and I've concluded that you're probably quite familiar with solder mask; I guess it doesn't look that good on a glass PCB.
I have actually done solder mask on a few boards, the problem is it takes a few more minutes and I just don't find it worthwhile for most design. I used toner transfer for the first 60 or 70 prints I did. The last 60 or so have all been Riston. I don't know. It is just really hard to master. I feel like there's a little more of a curve to use Riston, but it's been worth it! For those who have difficulty finding easy ways to get and dispose of ferric chloride, that bag technique looks awesome. Right now, though, all my boards are all over the place size-wise, so I don't think I'll be switching to it.
It's definitely worth the effort IMHO. It may be easier to send your design to a manufacturer and get a nice PCB sent to you in the mail, but where's the fun in that? I've just got a new toner cartridge so I'm hoping I can make something usable this weekend. Previous experiments have been done with a tired old remanufactured (and refilled) cartridge, which didn't work so well. I built an exposure box with 365nm LEDs which seems to work pretty well, but since my stencils were useless I haven't managed to produce anything usable.
If you fast, your liver will produce acetone and other ketones to power your brain. It's just a matter of concentration. Same thing with hydrochloric acid. Shit can melt your skin away, but your stomach makes lots of daily it through the amusingly named proton pump.
toooooo much acetone was used! it is such a waste as well as toxic cause it will damage your neural system! im not kiddinng! a few drop will do the job perfectly!
What a waste of acetone! This is a terrible choice, from an environmental perspective. Just use NaOH, it works great and is not so bad for the environment. You can dump a little NaOH down the sink without worries. You could even add a little vinegar if you really feel you need to neutralise it. Acetone is way more toxic and damaging. If you really, really feel you need acetone instead of NaOH, then use a little bit on a paper towel for gods sake, not an entire bath of the stuff just for one PCB.
+DutchPhlogiston I'm actually allergic to vinegar. But, I usually discard paper towels with all the acetone (and allow it to evaporate), as I have a plastic sink. NaOH does a terrible job at taking the goop off, so I've pretty much abandoned it. Really, I do the bath just to get the boards squeeky clean and not leave a residue.
That was only a tiny bit of acetone. You could just toss that outside and let it evaporate, or set fire to it for amusement. I'm not saying acetone is environmentally friendly, but this is a minuscule quantity compared to what's used in industry.
yeah, ok i have to admit it is tiny compared to the amounts used in industrial processes, and even the total quantity used worldwide by people making PCB's is small in comparison. However, it is way, way more than needed and I guess I am just a bit allergic to seeing chemicals being wasted. It is just because I work in a chemical laboratory and we take great care to use no more than what is actually needed.
I'm not paid as much as you think :). Also consider the money/time involved dealing with the waste. We can't just dump it down the drain. After a few liters I'll have to go and get a new waste container, give it the proper label, register it in the waste registration system (waiting for the slow computer), register the old, full container in the same system. It'll cost me a lot more than a minute of time. And we pay for processing the waste.
ArthursHD 1) Turn around time. 2) You still need to prototype blocks before sending off a design. 3) making one mistake on a board is bad enough. Ordering 10 of them is just dumb. You order pcb's after you have a proven prototype. 4) "cheap" means your prototype revisions will take at least a month between cycles due to shipping times. I don't know anyone interesting that can wait that long between project working sessions and maintain interest without a paycheck involved. 5) building your personal skills and craftsmanship is a great way to get ahead in a world filled with lazy people.
Because I can't have a PC board in 30 minutes from a PCB manufacturer. And if you're doing low quantity/one off designs, they're far more expensive to have done commercially.
Ridiculously complicated :)) I recommend using PCBs with UV sensitive coating on them -> Sodium Metasillicate (as developer) -> Ammonium Persulfate (as etchant). Much cleaner and faster (the whole process takes less then 10-15 minutes, including exposure (also - I expose only for 70 seconds on my DIY exposure unit - precise and fast. just needs to warm-up for a bit before the exposing starts)
It's amazing, I have worked in PCB production and sales for many years, I never imagined to be able to make at home。
I did the old making PCBs at home for years, i use to buy the exposure type copper clads, i don't anymore, I do this now:
1. design your board on your favorite PCB program
2. convert files to gerber
3. go on ebay and find a inexpensive PCB manufacturer
4. send files, get quote, and if satisfied, pay them.
5. wait for delivery.
trust me, I went the manufacturing method and I've never look back!
+BCcreativeInnovation I do some of each. I use electrodragon when I need 10 big boards dual side and can wait. They do up to 10cmx10cm for ~$20. I use Osh park for smaller boards. I print my own when I want a PCB in 30 minutes
Great video! Thought I'd share a helpful tip... A few years ago I accidentally spilled a bunch of FeCl in my bath tub, which is when I learned how much of a staining disaster that stuff can cause. Turns out though, scrubbing with CLR took it right out of the enamel! Might be worth experimenting with if you've spilled it anywhere (like your sink)
This is good info. I will talk to my parent's about it, their sink is what I learned on so it's a complete disaster!
I'm gonna try the 3 in 1 oil you recommended. I do imaging with a vacuum press frame at the moment. II happened to have a vacuum hot plate (for seperating lcds from their top glass). The vacuum is switchable independently from the heat. I built a plexi box with hinged lid and front door then painted it black. I drilled holes in bottom and used weather stripping to form a oval I lay the board and transparancy inside. I then lay glass on top, hit the button for vacuum and the glass draws down compressing weather stripping and pusshing transparancy into CC/film. I think adding the 3in1 will make results perfect. Also I liked your tip about how to save a board where the resist stayed in places it shouldnt have. Ive lost a few to that (just yesterday actually) Wish i had seen this sooner!
I have a few ideas for you/anyone looking to etch...
1) cupric choloride: if you have outside space you could consider switching to cupric chloride, its going to take forever to make it if you use pharmacy hydrogen peroxide...trick is go to sally beauty and buy volume 40 hair bleach. Its 12% peroxide. Beauty of cupric is you just bubble air into it or add peroxide to regenerate. unless you never want to etch again you can always reuse it. no waste disposal required until your relatives have buried you .
Cupric works best with a vertical bubble or spray etch system. I used plexy to build a vertical bubbler tank.. A good tip here is you can get a chemical weld between plexi sheets using acetone and light clamping pressure (it grabs in less than 5min but keep light pressure on it for 12--24 hrs). My tank is welded and siliconed on both sides as an extra precaution. I used 2 fish tank air pumps and aquarium air hose glued to the bottom of thank. Before inserting into tank I made bubble holes along the lengh that would sit at the bottom. I did this byI pressing a jumper wire (with header pin end) against the plastic hose and then touched soldering iron to it until it melted a small hole. Move down half an inc; repeat.. Im in an apt and outside is my 3rd story patio so I also built a "weather" enclosure for the tank and a rinse tray out of 2x4, 1x6 and plexi lining. This allows it to not tip/spill acid in high winds/storms. It saves me from having a tank of cupric inside a small apartment. It saves my patio from contamination and my ass from eviction. . The idea was make it strong enough/heavy enough so wind would have to rip the balcony off the apt before acid spilled. If that were to happen the building damage would probably over shadow the acid issue(lol).
the toxic part isnt the acid itself its the copper salts with in. Cupric is capable of chlorine fumes but that mainly happens when you first make it. The diff between it and ferric is that with cupric you dissolve copper in it before you do your etches so it contains those salts from the start. Once you have used ferric its just as toxic. Aka its not really much more of a risk than ferric if you do your homework. Making your batch of cupric is defiantly an outside away from building or fume hood thing but once you have it its much more tame.
Last i wanted to say...ferric isnt that nasty if not hot...if you have no cuts on your hand cold ferric isnt going to do much more than stain.
great video overall!
I read your whole post, but I'm just not sure how to respond! I always toy with these sorts of things but it's never quite jumped the gap for me.
lol sorry for the mess that was. I cleaned it up a bit (i need to get "proof read" tattooed on my hand.).
have you tried building things with plexi and acetone? if you have a circular saw... harbor freight has an 80tooth 10inch blade that isnt made to cut plexi but works like a charm on the miter and table saw ive used it in. . I think it costs 26 bucks. Thats what ultimately what opened the door to the world of plastics for me. I need to replace it now because I cut aluminum with it but for 26 bucks its hard to go wrong.
one last thing i forgot above: have you switched to led yet? digi key has a 4.1w 365nm led. Bright AF. you will need to build a sheilding box around it so you dont end up with fakatka vision ;)
I actually do a lot with plexi, but never needed acetone. I can cut whatever I need pretty much on my mill. If I needed something to fit together, I could just print a tooth-pattern (see newest video). I have switched to LEDs. Though 4.1W is way anemic. I got a 100W one from china and pump about 50W through it. Sped my exposure process way up.
ive got an outrunner brushless motor on order from the land of buyer be ware that i intend to turn into a drill press first and cnc later. problem is most of the mods to do that require a cnc machine to begin with. I need to add an extra bearing further down the shank to take stress off motor during lateral movement. There is a metal shop down the street from me that I might convince to do it for cheap but its all up in the air.
50w led? whats the wavelength though? afaik most resists respond best to 350-380nm. When i was looking into it even multi watt LEDs in those wavelengths were experiments in a lab or hella $$$ just 3 years or so ago. aka...idk i would trust one hung low brands output with out a spectrometer. If you are putting out 50w at 390nm-420nm it might not actually be as power full to the resist as 4w at 365-380. speculation asside my exposures seem to work in 2 min. They will probably be less when I source low iron glass.
i just tried the oil with my press rig...holy fucking sharp lines! damn banana plug on + was a bit crushed and i realized it about 45 seconds into one side (realized psu fan was fluctuating looked over and saw power level doing same on display) so i hope i got full exposure but regardless im really impressed. I double layer transparancy on both sides so i shot it inbetween the layers too...of to dev.
385nm - it completely cures in about 3-4 seconds at 2 feet. After about 6 seconds, the masked area cures, too :-p. I don't understand your last paragraph, though. Which oil? 3-in-1?
I've never seen someone that intimate with a etching bath, i can see it gives a lot of control. Good video.
I'm preparing Cu(2)Cl myself though, I'm not sure if i want my hand in that wearing household gloves for long. I don't know how these acids compare. Don't get drops on anything metallic, thats for sure though.
Good video, I do it a bit differently: I don't use water when laminating the resist, just do it dry. I have to double-up the mask becase the printer leaves holes, and I don't use oil, just hold it down with a sheet of glass and some weights. I cut the boards out with a multitool and chip-breaker router bit - I find shears can often delaminate and wreck the material.
I used to apply the resist dry, and I used to do it without the oil. But, the oil makes the mask much more forgiving, and the water makes it so you don't get those annoying imperfections and bubbles of air.
I also used to use a dremel with a cutting bit. The problem I had with that was the dust it generated got into the gears and destroyed the tool. Apparently fiberglas dust is terrible for machines :(.
I have had trouble with some shears on PCBs from providers, but, I found a guy on ebay that sells super high quality PCBs, and haven't had any problems with them :).
Are you still able to get fine pitch when you double-up masks?
CNLohr Well, I use the same tool for drilling etc, so it's going to get fibreglass dust around it anyway. Might as well using it for cutting
outing too.
I have had no problem with doubling up masks. As long as I take care and align them properly. I have successfully produced boards that included LQFP-48 packages - 0.2mm pads with 0.5mm pitch. Good enough for me!
Get some pics up on /r/electronics! I actually used to do .5 pitch parts with toner transfer, but, not with anywhere near the quality!
I'm so jealous of your results. I just tried dry film for the first time a few days ago. After watching this I see I've over exposed my film, need to try the water application technique, 3 in 1 oil trick, and I can get more aggressive than a cotton swab for rubbing stubborn areas of an etch. Thx for the tips.
-Jake
Let me know how it goes! It probably too ~20-30 prints to get this good.
CNLohr
I just did my first successful double sided etch today. The water emulsion/vinyl graphics style application of the Chinese dry film made a massive difference. I also used a 1/2 folded paper towel between my iron and the board instead of the different papers I had tried before. That made a big difference too. The paper towel distributes the heat way differently than a piece of paper, card stock, or news print. I did need to use scissors to keep from pulling on the dry film though because the film stuck to the paper towel far more than other forms of paper.
The biggest difference though was a 2 minute sunlight based exposure time. I think it was even a bit too much. Clearly a 5 min exposure was creating lots of problems before.
I need to try distilled water with my sodium carbonate next. I'm still getting some stubborn areas that don't want to etch. I can't detect any remaining evidence of film in those areas, but something is still not dialed in very well. Running my sodium carbonate through an old retired coffee grinder seemed to help it dissolve better.
I haven't drilled the board yet, but it's a 4"×6" board with 4 TO-252 FETs, low side shunts, a LM324 based current sense amplifier, and a CD4050 buffer for good measure on the gates. It's really basic stuff for switching a 4 channel LED strip bench lighting setup. I've designed it as a separate block with screw terminal inputs/outputs so I can reuse the design elsewhere later too. I also borrowed the current sense amplifier topology from the cheap Chinese dual volt/current meters, but adapted it to a 324 instead of the 1/2 LM358. I also used an AMS1117 adjustable Vreg on the board with an intended preset voltage of 3v3.
I can't believe it came out so well on the first try. I used your oil trick too. I just used my bike chain oil, some Prolink Gold. My results are good, and my best yet. The oil made me nervous though bc I couldn't get all of the air bubbles out and couldn't figure out which layer they were in, but the results are good. I actually forgot to flip the back side of the board's transparency in software prior to printing, but my design only has a few traces on the back and is mostly ground plane so I just exposed it with the ink side away from the board. Even with all of that I can see my small drill guide pin holes through both sides of the traces.
I also highly recommend using fill planes on any possible wire nets and running the final image through GIMP to teardrop all pads and smooth all intersections. Those additions to my workflow made a big difference when it comes to how the dry film developed. Plus GIMP gives much better resolution control than any other printing alternative I have used so far.
Thanks for the tips and motivation. It really helped me step it up a notch ;)
-Jake
Woaoaahh that's a big comment. I'm hearting this for future checking. I'm really glad to see the oil helped. And, I never thought about the purposes of the paper towels, they're just soemthing I started doing... Let me know about your developer stage and what improvements you make there. I feel like my method just isn't that good.
CNLohr
I want to try distilled water with developer like I mentioned. The other tip I saw recently was to try to etch the board for around 30 seconds at the very beginning before applying film. The intent is to maximize the surface "tooth," or to put it another way, to maximize the surface area chemically instead of mechanically.
The issues I'm seeing at the end of my etch visually resemble a chemical contamination issue. There's a certain kind of blotchy consistency that reminds me of stuff I used to deal with while painting cars. I know my surface prep is sufficient. If I were to have surface contamination issues they should follow the mechanical imperfections of my surface prep instead of a natural random blotchy consistency. I imagine the problems could be related to the quality of materials used too. I'll try to order some copper clad from MG Chemicals on my next major distributor order.
My next steps are to try pre-etching as a surface prep, try preheating the copper clad to ensure it is moisture free, use distilled water with my sodium carbonate developer, and try switching to virgin lacquer thinner for surface prep (stronger solvent/cleaner chemically/less damaging to the user as acetone goes right through the skin on contact [no one wears gloves ALL the time]).
I'm also interested in either trying to concentrate my old pre-diluted ferric chloride from the last days of Radio Shack or playing around with hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide soon.
I asked the YT CC Nurd Rage to do a DIY tutorial for a PCB tinning solution awhile back and they showed how to make it using hydrochloric acid, hydrogen peroxide, 95+% tin, and thauria from a consumer level silver polish like tarnex. I could always go buy tinning solution but the advertised shelf life is rather short after opening, and that stuff is super expensive for such a small step in the process.
I really want to master uv solder masks so I can place traces between pins or under some types of components in the future. I need a flatter tinned surface though. Tinning solutions seem a lot easier than creating a large solder pot/(redneck) makeshift wave solder setup. I can't seem to tin an entire board with an iron and get it flat enough to justify attempting a solder mask.. at least not yet. I just tried yesterday. I coated the entire board in a thick buttered layer of flux. Then I tinned the board completely using a minimum amount of solder keeping it as flat as possible. There were still some high spots especially on the larger ground plane side. I cleaned off the flux completely, then I used 600 grit sandpaper to level everything that was high as much as possible. Then I covered the board in flux again and applied an iron on everything. It's the flattest surface I've been able to achieve but there are still too many inconsistencies and I'm nervous about applying any more heat to areas with smaller traces. I also tried hot air but didn't like the results I was seeing.
Lastly, I tested all of my permanent markers on the edges of this past etch. I've seen a lot of internet banter about sharpies and such. I have used the dirt cheap Chinese art markers marketed as etching markers. I use them quite a bit for making quick breakout boards for stuff like TO-252 or TO-263 packages. On this board I tried sharpies in silver, black, red, yellow, blue, and green, along with the Chinese permanent marker. The Chinese marker bests all sharpies by a considerable amount. The black sharpie barely works. All the rest were totally ineffective, with the silver producing an unusual chemical reaction local to where it was applied.
It's a shame I'm working on my bench lighting and can't film this stuff very well until I'm done. I'd like to share some of this, although I don't really like filming my first attempt on anything.
Have you tried any alternative tinning methods or solder masks? ;)
-Jake
Thank you for your great video. May I ask, what kind of oil are you using for the exposure?
3-in-one oil.
@@CNLohr thanks!
Good idea to place the film underwater. No air bubbles.
I know! Someone mentioned it offhand I said "no way" and when I tried it it was night and day!
In another video (ruclips.net/video/CrdheP3Dwyc/видео.html) a guy (bigclive) used a spritz of water instead of submersion. Looked like it worked great. I'm going to try that next time.
Thank you for the video. You are pretty good doing the presentation, I just wanted to advise you to be careful with the chemicals, specially with the acetone. The acetone vapors can cause cancer. Make sure you use air filters and have good ventilation.
Acetone is not a known or suspected carcinogen. Check the MSDS. Not even California lists it. If it was, every nail technician in the world would be dead of cancer.
I don't know why people still use ferric chloride. It is messy, takes ages and you have to take out the board all the time to see the progress. I use sodium persulfate almost exclusively. It's clear and doesn't leave stains (but will bleach clothes). Hydrochloric acid/hydrogen peroxide is another option (also clear and very fast). I don't use it because of potential chlorine fumes (only happens when you do something wrong) as I do my etching in a not so well ventilated basement.
If you are doing boards more often, I'd also suggest buying boards with photoresist already on it.
+superdau I have tried everything else, etchant wise. I'm willing to deal with ferric chloride because it is so nice and fast. It is critical for when I need my PCBs in 30 minutes. I have even tried boards with existing photoresist. Riston is just soooooo good, and soooo cheap.
+CNLohr
I can make my PCBs in 15 ;) and I don't need a laminator. But if it works for you...
Have you tried UV tubes for exposing the PCB? They give a more uniform light and don't take long to warm up. I got a face tanner from ebay for 1€ in spring when people chuck them out and moved the 4 tubes including the reflector to the insides of an old scanner (it's almost as if the two were made for each other). It's at most an afternoon project and the results are much more consistent. Since you can lay the printout on the glass (toner side facing PCB), the PCB on top of it and close the lid of the scanner, there's no need to mess around with oil because the template will be pressed flush against the PCB all the time. Exposure takes around 60 seconds. And I'm not even using laser transparencies but normal tracing paper. It's cheaper than the transparencies and for the sharp edges you need for PCBs I had way too much variation in print quality between different batches/manufaturers of transparencies.
+superdau I have never tried UV tubes because of the non-columnation of the light, i.e. when I get it from a close to point source, the two layers of the transparencies. I just assumed it would give me worse accuracy toward the 0.5mm bsc parts.
The rest of this is rather interesting, and I would really appreciate a video about your process since I would imagine it would be difficult to try to fit this in a comment. Perhaps one day PCB hobbists will vie for fastest, most precise PCB manufaturing. You do it in 15, I'll see if I can do it in 14?
+CNLohr I'm in, I like this idea a lot. If I can ever get off my ass / fix my fine pitch issues with my prototype, I'll get around to doing a proper video of bright, durable plated through-holes. (ThinkTink as source, plus a month of hard research)
What kind of Epson is that? Have you ever noticed shrinkage with the laser transparencies? I wasted money on a crap budget Samsung printer, sucks for toner density. Was an M2020W. The fusor warps the transparency... it's Apollo brand.
Any tips? What kinda transparency paper you currently using?
Great video, very informative. Let's give those board houses a run for their money!
I've all but abandoned through-holes now. I have never found a quick way of dealing with them :(. I hope you do post - I love reading about tweaks on HaD. I actually use A kyocera C170N. It's a laser printer which requires specifically laser printer transparencies, which seem much more robust and sturdy than normal transparencies.
I double-up my layers all the time now, to get the extra black, as the printer no longer dumps out enough toner.
When I make PCB, I use hydrogen peroxide and muriatic acid, they both are cheaper to buy then the ferric chloride. The development is some time faster with H2O2 and HCL, then FeCl3. I use the toner transfer method and glossy paper, like paper from magazines.
For small prototype I think its the best solution.
btw Nice video :D
I used toner transfer for a long time, but now, after switching to the photo process, I realize it really is a lot better. It's much more reliable and clean. I was able to do .5mm BSC parts with toner transfer, but my yeild on large boards was worse. Any imperfections in the surface of the PCB doomed me.
Additionally, I am surprised you use magazine instead of toner transfer paper. The dextrose? coated side comes up more cleanly than magazine paper.
I will consider the H2O2+HCL etchant. In fact, I have both of those chemicals on hand.
CNLohr
In the country where I live, its extremely hard to find materials for this, pay-pal block us (and the most of other sites with online banking) so we are sticked wit the materials that you can find easily. The magazine paper was one of the best solutions, its glossy (with some-kind of dextrose ?!).
You can definitely pour acetone down the drain ... you just need to dilute it sufficiently. It's not toxic at all, in fact your body produces and consumes acetone when you're fasting for example, a process called ketosis. You will even piss some of it away. If you don't dilute, it can indeed dissolve some plastics.
But you can also just let it stand, it evaporates extremely fast.
2:00 ... you also put it Ink side down because UV Light will diffuse through the transparent film and under the ink and you'll get shadows, blur and broken tracks.
4:00 ... a friend of mine put his finger in some blue colored Sodium based copper etching solution and told me that it's not concentrated enough because it didn't burn his finger. LoL
gah
You are so intelligent and outstanding.And i want to ask a question about that how do you solve the drilling , solder mask, silkscreen and surface treatment question?We are the professional PCB manufacturer,so our product often made by machine,this is the first time that i have seen the board made by hands.
There are hobbyists who use UV-reactive films for solder mask, and silk screen. You can also iron-on from a laser printer surfaces.
I've only ever used liquid tin surface treatment, many others use solder surface treatments. Normally, I prefer bare copper because I use my PCBs right after I print them.
And tons of peeps do thru-hole drilling! I just don't like through-hole components because they're harder to work with.
Nice video man. May I ask you a question?
This is the first time I hear about overexposing the board to the UVs, and this is actually a question I have never been answered, so...
Why do the overexposure should make the photoresist harder to remove?
I'm asking because I've had this issue a lot of times... my cured photoresist films doesn't remove easily, even with high concentration of NaOH
(both with spray photoresist ones as well as expensive presensitized boards), so I eventually ruin even the uncured ones.
For some reasons I'm using a 5 mins time of exposing with 8x8W Philips UV lights, about 20 centimeters above the board.
Should I try reducing this time?
Thanks a lot!
I appreciate the time in showing this to us. I have had pretty good success with just a vinyl cutter and PCB Etchant Solution from radioshack this cuts down on the cleaning process and complex removal process.
Actually there is no problem with pouring ferric chloride down the drain. If you think about it - it takes up to 10 minutes(depending on concentration and temperature) to eat out super-tiny layer of copper from small area board. It does very little if any damage to thick non-copper metal tubes in your pipe system. And if you are still worried - mix it with cold water, then it will be useless in eating anything at all. Actually some other domestic chemistry does more damage than used ferric chloride.You can also use ammonium persulfate for etching - it is even softer, no worries about pipes too.
I asked someone who explained that it was because ferric chloride attacks the iron in the septic treatment plants. Once I got ferric chloride on steel wool, and it got very scary very fast.
But... You do pose some interesting points.
CNLohr btw I also managed to clean the stains from the ferric chloride on my bathroom floor, it seemed very hard at first, but then I just poured some strong cleaning household stuff and waited for an hour, then it came off quite easily.
Any idea what stuff you used?
CNLohr I think I mixed a bunch of creams for cleaning ceramic surfaces and I also added the spray for kitchen's metal surfaces. Kinda like mixed 3 or 4 different stuff, don't know what exactly helped. But I think the trick is to leave it there for a while and then wash it away, not try to make it in 5 minutes.
You can mix a great etching solution from readily available household chemicals. Mix 100 ml 3% hydrogen peroxide, 20 grams of citric acid, add a teaspoon or two of salt, and you have a great etching solution. It is transparent and has a higher oxidation-reduction potential than iron(III)chloride. Plus, it does not stain and is harmless, save for a minuscule amount of gas released from the solution while etching. One disadvantage is that the solution is not storable.
Citric acid? Okay, you have said words that may make me finally try something other than THE WONDERFUL FERRIC CHLORIDE OF WHICH NOTHING COULD POSSIBLY BE BETTER BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER TRIED ANYTHING ELSE. Ok mostly kidding, but really, I do actually want to give this a try now.
***** It worked... not sure how to dispose of it, and still think FeCl is gonna win for me. It's faster and feels more even.
CNLohr just pour it down the toilet. And btw, what does it mean "more even"? Does it over-etch? Is it too slow? You can heat it up, or add another 10 grams of citric acid, plus some more salt... FeCl3 is more expensive than this mixture. But maybe it's less expensive where you live :)
This mixture seemed to eat away at smaller parts and leave big parts more than ferric chloride... not a lot, so I could be wrong.
And... It's got a fair bit of copper dissolved in it... I dunno about that going straight down the drain.
try 405nM UV laser exposing? ~100mW at ~80mm/sec seems close to ideal. works best with Positive-type photoresist, doing isolation routing only.
+Shanjaq That's actually a really good idea because of a point source, so I don't have to worry about poor columnation.
Would that laminator be able to transfer the toner right from the transparency onto the board? I think it would be awesome to cut out that whole middle section...
Kevin Klika I used to use toner transfer, but, I can get suuuchhh nicer boards if I use the riston!
Very nice tutorial , i bought a blue film they call it "Photosensitive dry film
" in ebay and aliexpress. is it the same as your 'riston" ?
Thank you.
Probably? Maybe?
thank you i was going crazy looking for riston :s
@@stevenyoung3168 i know this is old but maybe it will help someone. Theres two kinds of film, negative resist and positive resist. You want the positive film to do the process like he shows. negative film requires inverted artwork. ie, positive film means your traces are black
Great inspiring video. I'm wondering how powerful your UV light is? (count of bulbs and wattage)
I believe it's either 120 or 160W. Probably 160W
Very good video, interesting and entertaining! I also like your method of etching a lot, I'm using a different etching liquid which is a little less aggressive, but yours is much easier to use and the results are awesome! Moreover, I really like the idea of using oil for the exposure process! I will definitely keep that in mind next time!
I was going to give up on the exposure process until I thought of using oil. Once I did, it made a night-and-day difference.
If you want to clean all the ferric chloride from the sink try with acetone, it´s very effective!
I do sometimes clean it off, but it gets dirty again so far.
yep, that´s like making the bed in the morning, you will mess it up again....¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sodium Hydroxide does the exact same thing as the acetone does. The only difference is that it's much more environmentally friendly. You CAN pour it down the drain as that is what it was made for. Letting acetone evaporate is very bad as then it's air pollution.
Another comment is that the Ferric Chloride is not the best etchant IMO. Copperic Chloride (50/50 Hydrochloric Acid to Hydrogen Peroxide mix) can be used forever if you keep bubbling air through it. Many other good points for it also.
1) Acetone is not dangerous for the environment. It is naturally produced by all animals. It is naturally decomposed by sunlight when evaporated (22-day half-life) and other environmental factors if trapped, as well as biological processes. THAT SAID... I do now use Sodium Hydroxide. It works out better for glass PCB processes, allowing the film to flake off rather than dissolve. But, just want to make sure no one who reads this thinks acetone is bad for the environment.
2) HCl is just AWFUL to use inside. It stinks up the house and is awful if you don't have a ton of ventilation. FeCl is almost odorless, and has minimal evaporative toxicity when etching. It's also very easy to dispose of at virtually any chemical waste collection site.
Awesome work. I like your videos, especially the WiFi lamp. Hey, do you use Kester R500 leaded solder?
I only use chipquick. Kester, last I looked cost waaaay more.
Hey,
First off, awesome video, very informative :)
Secondly where do you get your copper clad circuit board from?
Thanks
Thanks. And, I get mine from ebay. I search 1 oz pcb ss
will try this method because i tried making one board which has 0.5mm tracks close to each other and 0.5mm spaces between them, and i tried making it like 6 times with toner transfer with iron but whenever i try to take paper of some is ripping apart, or i get board right and i etch it with b327 some smaller tracks get eaten away
Size and precision was what got me to riston. I HAVE BEEN successful with boards like that and toner transfer, but, it usually takes many attempts and looks awful at the end.
CNLohr and chemicals are not that expensive compared to the board which is already with that film on top
I've never used boards with the resist on them already. I mean I tried a few times but I'm just so bad at them, I gave up. Others have had good luck, but I am totally tied to Riston now.
BTW how you modified your laminator because i bought a cheap one and it says 80micron only so i cant fit pcb in there i think
I never modified anything to increase thickness. The amazon ones just work. I do have a video about how to slow down a GBC-H220, though.
how long is this process for you for those pcbs you did in the video.. and do you happen to have a pdf or something step by step by any chance.. if not its cool. Thanks for the video... i will try and replicate this and start making some pcbs.
I don't have a PDF or anything like that, but check out my video "PCBs done quick" it's aobut 30 minutes once you get the process down.
+CNLohr thanks man. i greatly appreciate your work. keep it up.
Thanks
I have a question: can you use lens to reduce the dimension of the pcb during exposure, making a smaller board?
That is a way that PCBs were made, but it would be difficult to get the optics and all for this process. Also, I am not an optics expert.
do you think i can get away with ironing on Riston, because I don't have a laminator?
I don't think that would work very well, would be difficult to get it evenly across it without a lot of effort
understood, thx for quick response.
i still don't feel like buying a laminator tho XD so ill try using the iron with some small insignificant circuit and see if it works.
ill let u know how it goes.
(bumps post)
So how'd it go?
What Program are You using to draw the PCB Design with? is it Eagle?
Where can I buy scissor like yours able to cut throug epoxy? I've been looking for such a thing all my life!
Just look up tin snips. They are very strong.
Do etching under sunlight, it speeds up the process
It would be kind of nice to know what the developer is.
Do you make 2 sided boards with hole metalization?
I have done double-sided boards but over time eventually I found this was just the best way to go.
Do you have a way to make a printed circuit for whites tm 808 detector metal
nice work. Good luck soldering those connector pins without solder mask!
Took two goes of reflow, but it worked perfectly. I didn't even need to touch it up.
ah, solder paste & heatgun? I've done that with good results on non-plastic parts, but not so much with plastic ones!
No, the heatgun is difficult to control the temperature on. A toaster oven helps you control it a little better. Additionally, Bismuth solder paste gives you a huge margin of error. The solder melts at such a low temperature.
hi...were i can find a scissor like yours to cut de pbc card in 0:46m this video???
Thanks in advanced...
Mario Julio You can look for "tin snips" or "metal shears" those particular ones came from Home Depot and were the cheapest ones there.
Safer method of etchant is Hydrogen Peroxide (2 Parts ) Muratic acid ( 1 Part )
Don Cornwall That is the method I use as well. Not as hazardous and clear so you can check the progress easier. Waste goes right down the drain. I will never go back to Ferric Chloride again!!
Actually I thought this was the worst method regarding safety. I've read it generates some very toxic gas.
safer is mechanical etching with CNC machine.
PLEASE don't pour it down the drain!!! It's a severe environmental hazard. Just keep it and keep using it. Keep bubbling air through it and it will keep working.
Could You provide a bit more information about the UV lamp?
It's an off-the-shelf mercury vapor UV lamp. I believe my brand was "Powersun"
Thanks, I'll try to find such one.
2:00. LOL! Really? 3-in-1 oil!? That is amazing...
It's AWESOME.
Nice, never thought of using oil toatch the refractive index of the lamanant. Clever!
Did You try water instead of oil?
I don't remember, for sure, but I think I did.
thanks for your replies and nice videos
08:15 that PCB cutting tool is cool
Why are you using ferric chloride? There are way better things like Copper Chloride in Aqueous Hydrochloric Acid Solution. When I made my own boards, I had some HCl so i just made my own and also you can control how aggressive solution you want. Also with just HCl and Hydrogen peroxide you get Extremely violent echant which can later convert to the first mentioned solution.
anyways WAY better than FeCl . Really hated that thing when I tried it.
EDIT: Also this has been talked about by others as well. Should have guessed.
EDIT2: also the violence depends on the mixture and dilution... doh.
I'll give it a shot next time. What is your recommended mixture?
It mostly depends on how much acid are you willing to let evaporate. If you get something like 30/70 mixture of acid and peroxide you can get away with few seconds of etching. I used 60%clean HCl and 70% peroxide. That fumed the room up so that not using special chamber was not an option. Also tried with 5% and 6% mixture. That worked nicely, albeit slower.
What is the tool you use to cut PCB?
Tin snips.
is the software is free download???
Its sooo much safer (instead of ferric chloride) to use hydrogen peroxide, salt, and white vinegar. It takes a few more minutes but the trade off is worth it. IMO.
I am actually deathly allergic to vinegar, and have had to go to the ER from reactions to it, so I know which one I'm not going to be going near.
CNLohr I wasn't aware vinegar allergies were even possible.
There's some people who are so allergic, if it event contacts their skin, it causes swelling, thankfully that's not me.
Rather than getting the resist off with acetone, just rub it with a scotchbrite!
+Daniel Astbury I actually used to do just that! Now, I'm def more into the acetone thing.
+CNLohr Fair 'nuff, whatever works best for you.
Check this guys, It might be useful for you. It will make thinks a little bit easier, well I write about what he said in the video in steps.
- Method 1: Using [ Photoresist Film ]
- WARNING: Be sure your PCB board is all cleaned up, use acetone to clean it.
- Step #1: Print your PCB project on a transparency film
- Step #2: Cut the amound of PCB and photoresist film
- Step #3: Apply the photoresist film underwater on the copper PCB
- Step #4: Apply 2 sheets of normal paper on the top of the protoresist film and inject them all together into the laminator, then throw the sacrificial paper away
- Step #5: Spill some Use 3 in one oil on the photoresist film and then apply the trasparency film (Try to get as more bubbles out between the photoresist film and transparency film, the ink on the transparency film have to face the PCB copper)
- Step #6: Expose the PCB to strong UV light for the fair amound of time deppended on the PCB board. (Try to not let it become purple inside PCB cause it won't come off in the development proccess)
- Step #7: Peel off the transparency film and wipe clean the 3 in one oil.
- WARNING: Be sure to use at least eye protectiong cause ferric chloride is dangerous
- Step #8: Use the right amound ferric chloride and water on a glass container and put the PCB board in and wait for the fair amound of time of time deppended on your PCB board
- Step #9: Check if the etching was a succsess, hold the PCB board up to the light and check for failures, if you have etching failures, put it back to the ferric chloride and try to rub it using your gloves
- Step #10: Spill some acetone on the PCB board so the photoresist film will come off wape off the remainings with a paper towel gently so the board won't get damaged
- Step #11: Use a cutting device to cut the PCB board (I personally use dremel, electric rotary drill grinder)
I'm just getting in to PCB production at home using similar methods. I don't have a laminator so I've been experimenting with an iron to apply the photoresist coating, though I haven't quite mastered that yet! As for etching, I use a polythene bag and a slide binder, which works really well. I got the idea from this video - ruclips.net/video/nTQRRER1MOY/видео.htmlm50s.
Nice idea with the 3in1 oil, I've been wondering how to get a decent adherence between the transparency and the board.
Also, you should try applying solder mask to your PCBs, it makes them much easier to solder and they look well professional.
So, I've watched a few more of your videos and I've concluded that you're probably quite familiar with solder mask; I guess it doesn't look that good on a glass PCB.
I have actually done solder mask on a few boards, the problem is it takes a few more minutes and I just don't find it worthwhile for most design. I used toner transfer for the first 60 or 70 prints I did. The last 60 or so have all been Riston. I don't know. It is just really hard to master. I feel like there's a little more of a curve to use Riston, but it's been worth it!
For those who have difficulty finding easy ways to get and dispose of ferric chloride, that bag technique looks awesome. Right now, though, all my boards are all over the place size-wise, so I don't think I'll be switching to it.
BTW!!! I will be posting a new PCB video on Sunday.
It's definitely worth the effort IMHO. It may be easier to send your design to a manufacturer and get a nice PCB sent to you in the mail, but where's the fun in that?
I've just got a new toner cartridge so I'm hoping I can make something usable this weekend. Previous experiments have been done with a tired old remanufactured (and refilled) cartridge, which didn't work so well. I built an exposure box with 365nm LEDs which seems to work pretty well, but since my stencils were useless I haven't managed to produce anything usable.
good out come but i think its cheaper to get them made in china! less hassles and better finish with solder mask and overlay.
hownmuch does your hobby cost monthly? Because you are creating a lot of boards and using lot of components.
Depends heavily on the month. I get only the cheapest possible stuff! I get my copper boards for
做的还不错，借鉴一下，Thx!
very nice!
110k view, 700 likes/dislikes. About .6% of viewers rated the video. I don't know if this is typical but it is pretty shameful.
How could anyone give this video a thumbs down if the watch the ACETONE stage at 7:30?
What?
Get CNC machine, it makes miracle :)
You must really like to play with chloride :D
I wonder how girls use acetone on their nails!
I think the nail acitone is diluted just like rubbing alcohol and hydroporoxide
If you fast, your liver will produce acetone and other ketones to power your brain. It's just a matter of concentration.
Same thing with hydrochloric acid. Shit can melt your skin away, but your stomach makes lots of daily it through the amusingly named proton pump.
bahaha Yiddish, thanks for the less than fakakta tutorial
toooooo much acetone was used! it is such a waste as well as toxic cause it will damage your neural system! im not kiddinng! a few drop will do the job perfectly!
Acetone is listed as a level 1 health hazard. That means it is slightly hazardous. It is mainly an irritant.
What a waste of acetone! This is a terrible choice, from an environmental perspective. Just use NaOH, it works great and is not so bad for the environment. You can dump a little NaOH down the sink without worries. You could even add a little vinegar if you really feel you need to neutralise it. Acetone is way more toxic and damaging. If you really, really feel you need acetone instead of NaOH, then use a little bit on a paper towel for gods sake, not an entire bath of the stuff just for one PCB.
+DutchPhlogiston I'm actually allergic to vinegar. But, I usually discard paper towels with all the acetone (and allow it to evaporate), as I have a plastic sink. NaOH does a terrible job at taking the goop off, so I've pretty much abandoned it.
Really, I do the bath just to get the boards squeeky clean and not leave a residue.
That was only a tiny bit of acetone. You could just toss that outside and let it evaporate, or set fire to it for amusement. I'm not saying acetone is environmentally friendly, but this is a minuscule quantity compared to what's used in industry.
yeah, ok i have to admit it is tiny compared to the amounts used in industrial processes, and even the total quantity used worldwide by people making PCB's is small in comparison. However, it is way, way more than needed and I guess I am just a bit allergic to seeing chemicals being wasted. It is just because I work in a chemical laboratory and we take great care to use no more than what is actually needed.
That attitude is confusing? Would saving even a minute of your time be worth wasting almost a liter of acetone?
I'm not paid as much as you think :). Also consider the money/time involved dealing with the waste. We can't just dump it down the drain. After a few liters I'll have to go and get a new waste container, give it the proper label, register it in the waste registration system (waiting for the slow computer), register the old, full container in the same system. It'll cost me a lot more than a minute of time. And we pay for processing the waste.
looks like your making drugs
Why even bother? PCB manufactures do it much more efficiently.
ArthursHD
1) Turn around time.
2) You still need to prototype blocks before sending off a design.
3) making one mistake on a board is bad enough. Ordering 10 of them is just dumb. You order pcb's after you have a proven prototype.
4) "cheap" means your prototype revisions will take at least a month between cycles due to shipping times. I don't know anyone interesting that can wait that long between project working sessions and maintain interest without a paycheck involved.
5) building your personal skills and craftsmanship is a great way to get ahead in a world filled with lazy people.
Because I can't have a PC board in 30 minutes from a PCB manufacturer. And if you're doing low quantity/one off designs, they're far more expensive to have done commercially.