The Canadians really stepped up with supplying Britian. Besides production they shipped plenty of the supplies themselves and played a big role in patrolling the Atlantic. Add the commitments of a million strong army and Canada did a lot for a population of only 10 million at the time.
Canada has had a decisive roll in all the engagements that she has been involved in. Her people are courteous, unassuming and basically really nice, but in war they are always ready fight ferociously to the bitter end. This duality has got to be one of my favorite things about Canadians.
Yairo Martis Yes because the colonies totally had their hands fuller than Britain who weren’t doing much other than completely destroying the German air forces and whatnot
Birmingham Small Arms, BSA. When they made a version of the Czech 15mm MG is was called the Besa, which is simply 'BSA' turned into a pronounceable word. So I would imagine that this would be a 'BSA Light MG', which shortened into a single word gets to be 'BeSAL'. BSA were the largest non-government arms manufacturer in the UK in the 30s. I think they made motor bikes after the war.
BSA did indeed make motorbikes, since before WWI. The emblem on the tank of the motorbikes is 3 rifles leaning against each other. They also made bicycles and the joke went that BSA stood for "bloody sore arse" The association of arms manufacture and motorcycle manufacture has a logic to it, and CZ is another example.
Besal=Besa Light MG - the previously developed "Besa" was a Heavy Machine Gun. BSA, who also owned Triumph was as a matter of fact the biggest motorcycle manufacturer in the world in it's best days.
I used to own both a BSA 175 motorbike and a CZ 175 motorbike from Czech Republic. Both wonderful, take any kind of punishment and many of the parts were interchangeable. They were 2 stroke smelly, but wonderful low end torque, ideal for trials riding and country lanes.
The gents over at 'The Armourer's Bench' suggested that the name 'Besal' would simply come from the words "BeSA" (an acronym of sorts itself) and "light" to differentiate the gun from the tank mounted Besa (ZB-53) which itself would very firmly sit in the medium machine gun category.
@Grant Armstrong there wasn’t anything functionally wrong with the ar-15/m16 at the time of introduction, some bean counters got in the way and changed powder compositions which caused pressure issues as well as troops not being properly trained in the care and cleaning of the system. InRange has a series discussing all this and I’m sure there’s videos on this channel that do the same
As we found out at the beginning of the war. Hence the Lanchester, a direct copy of the MP18. Snobby British generals that didn't want "gangster guns" but were nowhere near the front lines
Britain had a lot of Emergency stuff in the pipe lines Like . Following the outbreak of the Battle of Britain in July 1940, the Royal Air Force was faced with a potential shortage of fighters. To meet the Luftwaffe threat, the Air Ministry commissioned Miles to design a simple easy-to-build fighter to specification F.19/40. This became the Miles M.20/2. Nine weeks and two days later the first prototype flew.[To reduce production time the M.20 employed all-wood construction and used many parts from the earlier Miles Master trainer, lacked hydraulics, and had spatted fixed landing gear. The fixed undercarriage freed space and payload sufficient for twelve .303 Browning machine guns and 5000 rounds, and 154 Imperial gallons (700 litres) of fuel (double the range and ammunition capacity of the Hawker Hurricane and Supermarine Spitfire). The M.20 was fitted with a bubble canopy for improved 360-degree vision
The BESAs (there were two of them) would make an interesting couple of videos, too. The War Office actually chose to have 7.92mm Mauser in the supply chain for tanks, rather than take the delay and development risk of adapting the gun to .303". The 7.92MM version was in service till 1957 or so. The 15mm BESA (same gun, hugely scaled up) was, it turned out, far too big and powerful to be secondary armament on anything, and too light (by 1941) to be the main armament on an armoured car. I think it penetrated something like 30mm of armour at 100 yards, which is more than almost any anti-tank rifle.
I know this is a 5 year old comment but i gotta share my stupid thought of imagine if it was a reciprocating charging handle. i cant get the immage of a soldier with a rappidly shaking hand fiering the gun out of my head
The name Besal was derived from 'BSA' for Birmingham Small Arms Company. BSA was the principle producer of light weapons in both world Wars. Its workforce grew to 30,000 and owned 28 factories and controlled another 39 factories during WWII. The purpose of the Besal was to halve the number of manhours taken to make the Bren Gun, but the government did not adopt it because, it is said, it already had a huge stock of Brens. Some components for the Bren were made at BSA's Mansfield Factory and some at the Armoury Road, Small Heath, Birmingham factory, said to be the biggest industrial complex in the World. I knew it well as I was born in a company house in the middle of the Small Heath factory. Development of the Bren took place at Small Heath and my recollection is that 11 Czech technicians came to Birmingham to plan production. One of them gave me some Czech coins. My father, William John Gardiner, liaised with them and he showed me how the Bren worked when I was about eight. He was put in charge of material orders for the Group in 1937 but in early 1941 was made manager of the Redditch factory which made the Besa machine gun, but he died in June 1941. The Bren was one of several weapons which immortalised the 'Enfield' name but were essentially BSA products. The Sten was made at the BSA factory at Tyseley, Birmingham (my uncle was Superintendent) and 1,250,000 Lee Enfield, Number 4s were made at BSA Shirley from July 1941 onwards. Those interested in British light weapons need to get hold of a copy of 'The Other Battle' by Donovan M Ward, the story of BSA's huge part in war production.
Every single time gun jesus does a video on british firearms from 1917-1950 i have to look out my window and shake my fist at the closest council worker asking "WHY THE BLOODY HELL DIDNT WE ADOPT THIS?!"! I mean honestly the farquar-hill rifle- "The war's over chaps and were never fighting one again. Nevermind." The Besal- "Weve devised a cheaper, easier bren gun...welp best keep pissing all this money we dont have up the wall!" The EM2- "The Americans want to keep throwing bricks at people even though all the research says the contrary would be better alround...best listen to them...."
Courtney Pflasterer Possibly that the Bren MGs were already being produced just fine, and that retooling factories for a minor price reduction would be pointless. I don't get not using the Farquhar-Hill rifle though. Far more useful to regular infantry in WW2 vs. Lee-Enfields.
You're right, it is impressive. Very nice job by Mr. Faulkner. Looks like a lot of thought and ingenuity went into it. I guess it didn't go into production due to parts commonality issues with the Bren, and the sense of urgency subsided. Great video as always. Thank you
The Besal was the winner of a competition to find a simplyfied Bren replacement which would be needed quickly if the Enfield factory was bombed. I understand that the necessary gauges and tools were made up into "packs" and kept ready for issue to any small factory or machine shop so production could start immediately. As other sources of Brens came on stream, they were never issued so few Besals were actually built. The HEFA was one of the competition losers but there were others I dont know about. (One might have become the Vickers Berthier??)
I remember finding the BREN in Russia during metal detecting..As always we repaired it but it was a nightmare even in comparison to MGs! By the way eventually it was very lightly deactivated(with a spot welding a screw into the chamber which was enough by law)-and sold!While the same time I ended up registering MG-42 for my own license as a semi auto instead of dealing with BREN and other shit!
Doubtful. For a start the "British" part is entirely redundant from the MoD's perspective, that sounds like a backronym a foreigner would come up with. More likely related to BSA.
Thanks for this, Ian. I am amazed that you managed to get hold of this unicorn gun. I had always hoped, but never really expected to see one of these in detail - only ever seen sort of grainy photos of this. Kudos to you. A BESAL and Webley-Fosberry in the same week......... Just Gobsmacked......
Ian, I am so glad you did this video. For twenty years of only seeing a photo of it from Ian Hogg's collection I thought the gun's firing configuration was with the pistol grip/trigger group in the forward under the mag position. Now it makes so much more sense. Got a funny feeling that the Brits were worried about the Irish Free State getting a hold of an example of this gun and learning how to make it.
Besa’s were produced in greater quantities than appear to be suggested. They were particularly appreciated by rapid mobile units in North African desert regions, as they were more forgiving re’ the ingress off sand and, also easier/quicker to strip and clean.
After WW2, during the Cold War, there was a similar requirement for a small-workshop-producible LMG using the 7.62mm NATO round and 30 round (MK4/5) Bren magazines and 20 round SLR magazines. The idea was to design, develop and trial these in peacetime and be ready to churn them out as war loomed. Sterling's answer to this need was a bit terrifying (basically, a Sterling SMG scaled up to 7.62mm NATO!) and might make an interesting video, if there's one left to dismantle on camera.
A blow back 7.62 - ffffffuuuuccchhh. After you sir. What would the weight of the bolt and return spring be to stop it going straight through the shooters face.
What a gem! On a related note I was lucky enough to use the Bren right before they were finally decommissioned for use in the Reserves here in Ireland. Was a joy to use, will always have quite a soft spot for the Bren.
Please do a video on the 'proper' BESA (or the original Czech ZB-53 / TK vz. 37), truly a Forgotten Weapon. It was the default MG on non-Lend Lease UK Tanks throughout WWII and beyond (they were still in service in the 1960s). They fired the original German 7.92x57mm Mauser round used by the Germans and Czechs. There was also the 15mm BESA, based on the Czech ZB vz.60 As noted in many comments, just as BESA = BSA MG, BESAL = BSA Light MG.
This man is the greatest he calms me down by just being truthful if he's wrong there is always subtext I appreciate you sir I've been watching this channel for years
My best guess is that the name BESAL has the same origin as BESA, i.e. Birmingham Small Arms, where Faulkner had worked. The British seemed to like the abbreviations of their firearms to be pronounceable, so the "E" was added to the middle. And the "L" is probably for "light", as the BESA was a vehicle-mounted weapon.
@@Heyello Exactly right. the BSA (Birmingham Small Arms) was colloquially called BESA, they made an acronym out of BSA, the workers did anyway. It caught on. This was simply, BESA-Light. Like most British guns then (the ones that were actually good) it was Czech designed, just like the Bren. The Czech really did make some fine armaments in the 30s, and tanks for that matter. If they weren't sold out by the Western Nations in 38 they would have put up some fight against the germans
The BESAL was a BESA medium machine gun altered down to be easy to carry and the “L” was added to the end of the name to show it was a “Light” version or infantry carry-able version whilst the BESA was supposed to be mounted in/on a tank or armoured fighting vehicle. My uncle Bill was part of the team working on manufacture at the Enfield facility after Birmingham Small arms sent the design for the manufacturing machines down in 1940.
Besal comes from BSA who produced the Besa, a copy of the ZB-53. Besa is in reference to the BSA-Czech agreement (Similar to BREN). It seems that since the Besal was also a copy of a Czech weapon they followed the Besa name adding the L for "light".
Very interesting stuff. I had not appreciated how desperate the British were for small arms after Dunkirk, until I recently read (O'Brien, How the War Was Won) that small arms and small arms ammo shared the top production priority with aircraft and AA equipment until the end of 1940. It also adds some background to the enormous variety of weapons that equipped "Dad's Army" during this time.
Actually Britain wasn't that short of small arms, the numbers of Brens lost during the battle for France has been massively overestimated by contemporary historians based on incomplete or poor research and misunderstanding. The losses were made up within a couple of months. Significant quantities of other small arms remained in storage, it was the loss of larger equipment such as tanks, vehicles and Artillery pieces that were the biggest issue, but again, the shortages lasted a few months. The massive expansion of the British armed forces during the period was an issue, availability of raw materials for war production struggled to keep pace and that was the major driving force behind campaigns to seemingly beg for small arms from American civilians, it was largely to win over public opinion in the U.S., to make it easier for the U.S. Government to provide aid before the U.S. officially joined the war, to make Britain look desperate enough that the U.S. could justify aid. Some weapons types like the Thompson were genuinely needed as there was no immediately available equivalent in British service until the Sten was developed, but they were purchased by Britain before lend lease existed and Britain stopped buying them as soon as they could, because they were bloody expensive. What Britain really needed from the U.S. at that point was access to its resources and manufacturing base, rather than grandpa's old shot gun, but it was important to win over public opinion in the U.S., so appealing to American civilians directly for help was one aspect of that process.
One or two people have suggested the name comes from 'BSA'. I haven't read the whole lot, so I might be repeating someone else's comment, but ... BSA made motorcycles in peacetime, which were popularly known as Beezers, from the initials; I'd guess Beezer was a common name in the Forces for BSA weapons. Incidentally, the BSA gin barrel proof house is still intact, and can be used for proofing in the old-fashioned black powder manner. You can see it from the train as you approach Birmingham New Street station from one end.
The gun rack in the background looks like the cubes in the movie "The Cabin In The Woods", each one has a different strange and highly interesting item in it :)
Just a thought, the British used a co-ax tank machine gun, the BESA. The BESA was a British version of the Czechoslovakian ZB-53. BESA stands for Birmingham Small Arms Company (BSA) yes they also made motorcycles! Could the L on the end stand for Light? Therefore might I suggest it was called the BESAL, which stands for BESA Light? Birmingham Small Arms Company Light, is a bit of a mouthful. Love your Forgotten Weapons channel.
I've heard both that it stands for *Brno*, *Enfield*, B*SA*, *Light* Or that it's a contraction of "British Small Arms factory (BSA), Light", i.e. since BSA was also making the BESA, a heavier Czech-derived machine gun, they would name this the same thing but with an L for "light" at the end.
Hi Ian, it is a fabulous historical archive that you produce, thank you very much. This is an educated guess about how the name might have come about; any Brit biker who remembers BSAs as a common sight refers to them as a Besa, as pronouncing each letter seems a mouthful. Add L to that (for Light) would seem logical. Cheers
The BESAL was designed by Henry Faulkner, who also was heavily involved in the manufacturing of the BESA MMG. The BESA name origin came from the Birmingham Small Arms company which was abbreviated to BSA but pronounced as "BESA". This weapon is an LMG as apposed to its big brother which is an MMG. The BESAL stands for BESA-Light or Faulkner after its namesake developer
The BREN GUN was NOT British. It was a Czech weapon that we (UK) bought the manufacturing rights to, a .303 weapon. The Light Machine Gun was a 7.62 mm version. It had a 30 round magazine that was interchangeable with the 20 round mag of the SLR. The SLR was a Belgian FN rifle made in Britain BUT without a full automatic setting. The SLR, unlike the current 556 weapon WOULD penetrate body armour. Interesting is that we are now looking to back to 7.62. The current rifle was NOT designed as 556mm but was adapted so that we used the same ammo as the USA, despite the fact that NATO agreed on 7.62mm.o
When it comes to machining anything, there are two important questions: How are you going to hold it, and What order are you going to cut it. A third question is often What tool will you use to make each cut. If these were going to be mass-produced in garage shops, a lot of time could be lost and parts scrapped or not made to correct tolerances if those questions had to be figured out by every machine tool owner on their own. I have to wonder if there were detailed "kit building plans" that described step by step how to make the various parts. And if they ever existed, I wonder if they still do.
I wonder why there weren't more weapons with the mag sticking out of the top. I mean, when prone it's easier to replace and the sights being shifted to the left (or right, depending on whether you're left-handed or not) won't matter THAT much on a weapon which is not really designed to be a DMR in the first place.
Hmm, yea I guess I need to consider how close your face is to the mag when you're prone, that's a different animal when compared to kneeling or standing. So it would probably be smarter to use a double-drum mag instead of a box mag since the drums would be on either side of the receiver, or a pan mag like on the Lewis Gun.
Most LMGs in ww2 had top mounted magazines. Bren, ZB vz. 26, ZB vz. 30, Type 96, Type 99, DP 28, Vickers-Berthier, FM 24/29, Madsen gun, Vickers K, Lewis Gun, MG-34 (with special top cover). All top mounted magazines. Seven of them box, 3 pans, and a single double drum.
Gotta go through my books about the weapons of WW II again, I thought pretty much all of them (with a few prominent exceptions like the Lewis and the Madsen) were belt-fed from the side. Ôo
Lebanon bought Staghound armoured cars from the british, in the 1950’s. There was in this armoured car a coaxial machine gun, called Besa, made by the british under a czech license. It was in 7.92 mauser caliber, and had a 2 speed rate of fire, and it was an excellent machine gun, which can be used only from within a turret. It could be that your Besal, could mean, Besa light.
Just a nitpick but I think the locking device on the back is better described as one of the mounting points for the Bren tripod/AA mount or a vehicle mount, as there is a similar point at the centre of the weapon (same as on the bren)
Thanks Ian. That was interesting. I like how they were able to take a quick stab at developing it and come up with something that wasn't that bad. One thing though - is that the difference between such as the Last Ditch weapons for Japan and this weapon - was the fact that Japan did go on to lose the war. Had Germany successfully invaded Britain (which I do not see ever standing a chance of happening whether they tried it or not) this _would_ have been a classic "Last Ditch" weapon of a defeated nation. .
I have been informed that BESAL comes from the nickname for BSA motorbikes which is BESA (pronounced beeza) and then just an L on the end for light machinegun. However as the quality of this evidence amounts to "what my mate said down the pub" more than one pinch of salt may be in order.
I was reading a article on Faulkner and it states as he was the designer of the BESA gun and the Besal was just a larger version of Besa ,so one would guess the letter L was added just to denote it was larger , giving you BesaL .
I know the name BESA comes from the way you pronounce the acronym for Birmingham Small Arms company (BSA) so I wouldn't be surprised if they added an L to stand for 'Light' or something similar. As I think the acronym for 'Gun, Light, Machine, Faulkner, .303-inch' is rather ugly.
The BESA was the primary Commonwealth tank-mounted coaxial MG during the war. At first glance, I'd guess the BESAL is a lightweight, infantry-portable version of the BESA. BESA-Lightweight -> BESA-L -> BESAL.
That way of cocking the gun is super interesting. Never seen that on anything else I can think of, though it sounds like the Czechs designed something else with it. Why isn’t it used more? Seems like a good system for machine guns, anything likely to be on at least a bipod like that would be decently ergonomic. Might be awkward on a rifle. But it eliminates parts. It kind of eliminates an opening since the ejection port and the path for the charging handle are the same space. If you’re fighting a heavy spring this might give you enough purchase to eliminate the leveraged cocking handles like on old HMGs, as long as you have a stock to brace against and a pistol grip to pull you can pull back with way more force than pulling on a metal knob with one finger.
This reminds me, do you think you'll ever get a chance to get a look at that 7.62 Sterling that uses Bren mags? I know you did a short post about it years ago, but it'd be interesting where it came from and where it is now.
As Ian mentioned at the end, the BREN production was up and running and the gun itself was formidable. Thus the ordonance department did not want to change the procurement of a light machine gun.
The Bren wasn't issued to every man like the M3 and Sten were. There might have been one for every squad but that is less than the common soldiers weapon.
I believe that the added complication to the logistical train during a time of war, when all British industries were already stressed and supplies were restricted was the reason that the Besal wasn't adopted, though the design was definitely kept as a reserve in case there had been a problem with Bren production.
The term BESAL is just a conglomeration of the manufacturer and the type of weapon. British forces often give their equipment simplified nicknames to remember the equipment name. So BESAL just comes from the BSA and Light machine gun as it is easier to say “BESAL” than it is to say “B S A Light machine gun.”
Ian, are you familiar with the Besa machine gun? It is a licensed ZB-53 (TK vz. 37 in Czechoslovak service) used as a mounted belt-fed machine gun by the Royal Armoured Corps.
Simple doesn't always mean bad. I can really appreciate the engineering that goes behind making something reliable that's also cost effective.
Because sir, you appreciate genius.
Simplify and add lightness.
It's easier to make an expensive complicated thing work.
The art of engineering is making a simple cheap thing work.
The Canadians really stepped up with supplying Britian. Besides production they shipped plenty of the supplies themselves and played a big role in patrolling the Atlantic. Add the commitments of a million strong army and Canada did a lot for a population of only 10 million at the time.
JROY -Yes they did. I am glad to see the contributions of our northern neighbors being more recognized in historical videos i have seen.
The colonies and dominions saved the British's arses.
Canada has had a decisive roll in all the engagements that she has been involved in. Her people are courteous, unassuming and basically really nice, but in war they are always ready fight ferociously to the bitter end. This duality has got to be one of my favorite things about Canadians.
Canada’s performance in both world wars was exemplary. The Canadian army basically invented modern infantry tactics during world war 1.
Yairo Martis Yes because the colonies totally had their hands fuller than Britain who weren’t doing much other than completely destroying the German air forces and whatnot
It's a super rare gun, there may only be this one left... let's take it apart. I love it everytime.
ew
BESAL: British, Extra Shooty, Also Light?
Bloody-'ell! Sounds Awfully Loud.
Yeah, if BSA were involved, that corrupts to BESA, with the L for light
British Emergency Simplified Automatic, Light?
Big Enfield, Shoots A Lot
it might mean BESA (the company) plus light?
Birmingham Small Arms, BSA. When they made a version of the Czech 15mm MG is was called the Besa, which is simply 'BSA' turned into a pronounceable word. So I would imagine that this would be a 'BSA Light MG', which shortened into a single word gets to be 'BeSAL'. BSA were the largest non-government arms manufacturer in the UK in the 30s. I think they made motor bikes after the war.
BSA did indeed make motorbikes, since before WWI. The emblem on the tank of the motorbikes is 3 rifles leaning against each other. They also made bicycles and the joke went that BSA stood for "bloody sore arse" The association of arms manufacture and motorcycle manufacture has a logic to it, and CZ is another example.
My dad owned one of their bikes haha
Besal=Besa Light MG - the previously developed "Besa" was a Heavy Machine Gun. BSA, who also owned Triumph was as a matter of fact the biggest motorcycle manufacturer in the world in it's best days.
I used to own both a BSA 175 motorbike and a CZ 175 motorbike from Czech Republic. Both wonderful, take any kind of punishment and many of the parts were interchangeable. They were 2 stroke smelly, but wonderful low end torque, ideal for trials riding and country lanes.
As an owner of a CZ i can agree they can take all kinds of punishment.
The gents over at 'The Armourer's Bench' suggested that the name 'Besal' would simply come from the words "BeSA" (an acronym of sorts itself) and "light" to differentiate the gun from the tank mounted Besa (ZB-53) which itself would very firmly sit in the medium machine gun category.
Mika Koskimies Patreon,eh?
Th correct acronym is BSA, Birmingham Small Arms. no E.
The ''BSA machine gun'' was rather quickly nicknamed ''BESA'' nickname though, since that's a lot easier to pronounce.
Nonetheless, it could well be that it's derived from Besa-L, as in Besa light. I think the action is based on the Besa MG, but I may be wrong.
@ Christie Malry...... Aye, agree wi ye
There is something about "crude" guns... It's just so appealing.
Ikr
@Grant Armstrong there wasn’t anything functionally wrong with the ar-15/m16 at the time of introduction, some bean counters got in the way and changed powder compositions which caused pressure issues as well as troops not being properly trained in the care and cleaning of the system. InRange has a series discussing all this and I’m sure there’s videos on this channel that do the same
True
It's better to have backup plans that will never see the light of the day than being in dire need for one.
As we found out at the beginning of the war. Hence the Lanchester, a direct copy of the MP18. Snobby British generals that didn't want "gangster guns" but were nowhere near the front lines
Better to have and not need than to need and not have etc.
@@howardchambers9679 They were especially cut off from reports from the front lines.
Britain had a lot of Emergency stuff in the pipe lines Like . Following the outbreak of the Battle of Britain in July 1940, the Royal Air Force was faced with a potential shortage of fighters. To meet the Luftwaffe threat, the Air Ministry commissioned Miles to design a simple easy-to-build fighter to specification F.19/40. This became the Miles M.20/2. Nine weeks and two days later the first prototype flew.[To reduce production time the M.20 employed all-wood construction and used many parts from the earlier Miles Master trainer, lacked hydraulics, and had spatted fixed landing gear. The fixed undercarriage freed space and payload sufficient for twelve .303 Browning machine guns and 5000 rounds, and 154 Imperial gallons (700 litres) of fuel (double the range and ammunition capacity of the Hawker Hurricane and Supermarine Spitfire). The M.20 was fitted with a bubble canopy for improved 360-degree vision
There was also a single seat version of the Boulton Paul Defiant developed as an emergency option, which apparently was pretty good.
So, check me if I'm wrong but, handles like a submarine, but has enough firepower to make a PBY Catalina cry mommy.
And it was faster than the Hurricane. It was a real pity it wasn't developed further for the FAA.
The brits seemed to be able to make rather effective weapons for a relatively low cost. The sten for example.
Algis yes it was.
Mortini Hale didn't the sten only have an effective range of 30 feet
They are on par with the Russians in that regard IMO. The whole video I was thinking the gun has a chunky but serviceable ak47 vibe and style.
niall coffey so did most smgs
hah, the grease gun is nothing compared to the Owen gun, arguably the best example of a cheap, low cost SMG. cheap, reliable and easy to make.
No matter what the subject is, it's always refreshing and impressive to see someone mastering it ! You are a 5 star historian ! I salute you !
British
The name was apparently changed from Besal to Faulkner to avoid confusion with the Besa which was only used on armoured vehicles.
The BESAs (there were two of them) would make an interesting couple of videos, too. The War Office actually chose to have 7.92mm Mauser in the supply chain for tanks, rather than take the delay and development risk of adapting the gun to .303". The 7.92MM version was in service till 1957 or so. The 15mm BESA (same gun, hugely scaled up) was, it turned out, far too big and powerful to be secondary armament on anything, and too light (by 1941) to be the main armament on an armoured car. I think it penetrated something like 30mm of armour at 100 yards, which is more than almost any anti-tank rifle.
@@matthewspencer5086 The PTRD and PTRS are able to penetrate 40mm of steel at 300 yards according to Ian on his PTRD video.
Very strange Berthier BTW.
ohhh, that makes more sense
Always found the mix of charging hand and pistol grip to be an interesting design
I know this is a 5 year old comment but i gotta share my stupid thought of imagine if it was a reciprocating charging handle. i cant get the immage of a soldier with a rappidly shaking hand fiering the gun out of my head
A Besal is a cross between a bee and a weasel. You can trust me. I'm a top scientist.
In other words, an Amalgamate.
Wouldn't that be a beesal or a beasal?
@@kieranh2005 or Weaee?
@@swj719 Hes wrong, trust me. Common misconception, its a cross between and Beagle and a weasel
If you're a top scientist then answer this: where is the pee stored?
The name Besal was derived from 'BSA' for Birmingham Small Arms Company. BSA was the principle producer of light weapons in both world Wars. Its workforce grew to 30,000 and owned 28 factories and controlled another 39 factories during WWII. The purpose of the Besal was to halve the number of manhours taken to make the Bren Gun, but the government did not adopt it because, it is said, it already had a huge stock of Brens. Some components for the Bren were made at BSA's Mansfield Factory and some at the Armoury Road, Small Heath, Birmingham factory, said to be the biggest industrial complex in the World. I knew it well as I was born in a company house in the middle of the Small Heath factory. Development of the Bren took place at Small Heath and my recollection is that 11 Czech technicians came to Birmingham to plan production. One of them gave me some Czech coins. My father, William John Gardiner, liaised with them and he showed me how the Bren worked when I was about eight. He was put in charge of material orders for the Group in 1937 but in early 1941 was made manager of the Redditch factory which made the Besa machine gun, but he died in June 1941. The Bren was one of several weapons which immortalised the 'Enfield' name but were essentially BSA products. The Sten was made at the BSA factory at Tyseley, Birmingham (my uncle was Superintendent) and 1,250,000 Lee Enfield, Number 4s were made at BSA Shirley from July 1941 onwards. Those interested in British light weapons need to get hold of a copy of 'The Other Battle' by Donovan M Ward, the story of BSA's huge part in war production.
Gorgeous simplicity!
I really really like how simple this gun is.
I really enjoy the story telling you do with regards to the firearms' history in your videos.
And now there are TWO videos on the BESAL. Excellent!
Every single time gun jesus does a video on british firearms from 1917-1950 i have to look out my window and shake my fist at the closest council worker asking "WHY THE BLOODY HELL DIDNT WE ADOPT THIS?!"!
I mean honestly the farquar-hill rifle- "The war's over chaps and were never fighting one again. Nevermind."
The Besal- "Weve devised a cheaper, easier bren gun...welp best keep pissing all this money we dont have up the wall!"
The EM2- "The Americans want to keep throwing bricks at people even though all the research says the contrary would be better alround...best listen to them...."
Courtney Pflasterer Possibly that the Bren MGs were already being produced just fine, and that retooling factories for a minor price reduction would be pointless.
I don't get not using the Farquhar-Hill rifle though. Far more useful to regular infantry in WW2 vs. Lee-Enfields.
As his EM-2 video showed, the cartridge it fires was too powerful for accurate automatic/burst firing.
Probably 'cause the drum is bulky and hard to carry spares of.
Richard Do Not necessarily.
Complaining to the council in the age of social media - writing a letter to the council is so old-fashioned. : )
You're right, it is impressive. Very nice job by Mr. Faulkner. Looks like a lot of thought and ingenuity went into it. I guess it didn't go into production due to parts commonality issues with the Bren, and the sense of urgency subsided. Great video as always. Thank you
Never heard of it before! Another great example of why I love FW so much 👍
The Besal was the winner of a competition to find a simplyfied Bren replacement which would be needed quickly if the Enfield factory was bombed. I understand that the necessary gauges and tools were made up into "packs" and kept ready for issue to any small factory or machine shop so production could start immediately. As other sources of Brens came on stream, they were never issued so few Besals were actually built. The HEFA was one of the competition losers but there were others I dont know about. (One might have become the Vickers Berthier??)
I remember finding the BREN in Russia during metal detecting..As always we repaired it but it was a nightmare even in comparison to MGs!
By the way eventually it was very lightly deactivated(with a spot welding a screw into the chamber which was enough by law)-and sold!While the same time I ended up registering MG-42 for my own license as a semi auto instead of dealing with BREN and other shit!
I am very jealous of your mg42
i recall reading somewhere that BESAL stood for British Emergency Simplified Armament,Light.
That's exactly what I came up with while trying to guess.
What do I win?
A piece of cheese
@@Wafflecat09 specfifcally,hobo dick chesee
Doubtful. For a start the "British" part is entirely redundant from the MoD's perspective, that sounds like a backronym a foreigner would come up with. More likely related to BSA.
Thanks for this, Ian. I am amazed that you managed to get hold of this unicorn gun. I had always hoped, but never really expected to see one of these in detail - only ever seen sort of grainy photos of this.
Kudos to you.
A BESAL and Webley-Fosberry in the same week......... Just Gobsmacked......
Ian, I am so glad you did this video. For twenty years of only seeing a photo of it from Ian Hogg's collection I thought the gun's firing configuration was with the pistol grip/trigger group in the forward under the mag position. Now it makes so much more sense.
Got a funny feeling that the Brits were worried about the Irish Free State getting a hold of an example of this gun and learning how to make it.
Besa’s were produced in greater quantities than appear to be suggested. They were particularly appreciated by rapid mobile units in North African desert regions, as they were more forgiving re’ the ingress off sand and, also easier/quicker to strip and clean.
Wonderful as always.A professional network, which is not dedicated solely to shoot.
After WW2, during the Cold War, there was a similar requirement for a small-workshop-producible LMG using the 7.62mm NATO round and 30 round (MK4/5) Bren magazines and 20 round SLR magazines. The idea was to design, develop and trial these in peacetime and be ready to churn them out as war loomed. Sterling's answer to this need was a bit terrifying (basically, a Sterling SMG scaled up to 7.62mm NATO!) and might make an interesting video, if there's one left to dismantle on camera.
A blow back 7.62 - ffffffuuuuccchhh. After you sir. What would the weight of the bolt and return spring be to stop it going straight through the shooters face.
@@graemesydney38 Delayed lever blow back.
What a gem! On a related note I was lucky enough to use the Bren right before they were finally decommissioned for use in the Reserves here in Ireland. Was a joy to use, will always have quite a soft spot for the Bren.
Please do a video on the 'proper' BESA (or the original Czech ZB-53 / TK vz. 37), truly a Forgotten Weapon. It was the default MG on non-Lend Lease UK Tanks throughout WWII and beyond (they were still in service in the 1960s). They fired the original German 7.92x57mm Mauser round used by the Germans and Czechs.
There was also the 15mm BESA, based on the Czech ZB vz.60
As noted in many comments, just as BESA = BSA MG, BESAL = BSA Light MG.
Fascinating as always Ian
This man is the greatest he calms me down by just being truthful if he's wrong there is always subtext I appreciate you sir I've been watching this channel for years
My best guess is that the name BESAL has the same origin as BESA, i.e. Birmingham Small Arms, where Faulkner had worked. The British seemed to like the abbreviations of their firearms to be pronounceable, so the "E" was added to the middle. And the "L" is probably for "light", as the BESA was a vehicle-mounted weapon.
Thank you , Ian .
Could it have something to do with the BESA, the hull machinegun in many British tanks?
Maybe the L is meaning BESA-Light
It was designed by the same man, so the name likely stands for BESA-Light.
Cocks like a BESA so I would say you guys are right!
doubt it, the BESA is a totally different design
@@Heyello Exactly right. the BSA (Birmingham Small Arms) was colloquially called BESA, they made an acronym out of BSA, the workers did anyway. It caught on. This was simply, BESA-Light. Like most British guns then (the ones that were actually good) it was Czech designed, just like the Bren. The Czech really did make some fine armaments in the 30s, and tanks for that matter. If they weren't sold out by the Western Nations in 38 they would have put up some fight against the germans
That prism bolt and bolt carrier is beautiful.
The BESAL was a BESA medium machine gun altered down to be easy to carry and the “L” was added to the end of the name to show it was a “Light” version or infantry carry-able version whilst the BESA was supposed to be mounted in/on a tank or armoured fighting vehicle. My uncle Bill was part of the team working on manufacture at the Enfield facility after Birmingham Small arms sent the design for the manufacturing machines down in 1940.
Besal comes from BSA who produced the Besa, a copy of the ZB-53. Besa is in reference to the BSA-Czech agreement (Similar to BREN). It seems that since the Besal was also a copy of a Czech weapon they followed the Besa name adding the L for "light".
Very interesting stuff. I had not appreciated how desperate the British were for small arms after Dunkirk, until I recently read (O'Brien, How the War Was Won) that small arms and small arms ammo shared the top production priority with aircraft and AA equipment until the end of 1940. It also adds some background to the enormous variety of weapons that equipped "Dad's Army" during this time.
There was an American drive 'Gun's For British Homes' produced all sorts of firearm, and ancillary equipment such as Binoculars and compasses.
Actually Britain wasn't that short of small arms, the numbers of Brens lost during the battle for France has been massively overestimated by contemporary historians based on incomplete or poor research and misunderstanding. The losses were made up within a couple of months. Significant quantities of other small arms remained in storage, it was the loss of larger equipment such as tanks, vehicles and Artillery pieces that were the biggest issue, but again, the shortages lasted a few months. The massive expansion of the British armed forces during the period was an issue, availability of raw materials for war production struggled to keep pace and that was the major driving force behind campaigns to seemingly beg for small arms from American civilians, it was largely to win over public opinion in the U.S., to make it easier for the U.S. Government to provide aid before the U.S. officially joined the war, to make Britain look desperate enough that the U.S. could justify aid. Some weapons types like the Thompson were genuinely needed as there was no immediately available equivalent in British service until the Sten was developed, but they were purchased by Britain before lend lease existed and Britain stopped buying them as soon as they could, because they were bloody expensive. What Britain really needed from the U.S. at that point was access to its resources and manufacturing base, rather than grandpa's old shot gun, but it was important to win over public opinion in the U.S., so appealing to American civilians directly for help was one aspect of that process.
One or two people have suggested the name comes from 'BSA'. I haven't read the whole lot, so I might be repeating someone else's comment, but ... BSA made motorcycles in peacetime, which were popularly known as Beezers, from the initials; I'd guess Beezer was a common name in the Forces for BSA weapons.
Incidentally, the BSA gin barrel proof house is still intact, and can be used for proofing in the old-fashioned black powder manner. You can see it from the train as you approach Birmingham New Street station from one end.
The gun rack in the background looks like the cubes in the movie "The Cabin In The Woods", each one has a different strange and highly interesting item in it :)
The BESAL (abbreviated from Brno, Enfield, BSA, Light), also known as the Faulkner
Absolutely freaking awesome! I have a Bren MK1m, and would LOVE to have something like this. What a huge piece of rare history! Is that transferable?
Very, very cool! And I see why ARES might be interested, based on your Q&A. Fascinating area of little-known weapons.
Just a thought, the British used a co-ax tank machine gun, the BESA. The BESA was a British version of the Czechoslovakian ZB-53.
BESA stands for Birmingham Small Arms Company (BSA) yes they also made motorcycles!
Could the L on the end stand for Light?
Therefore might I suggest it was called the BESAL, which stands for BESA Light?
Birmingham Small Arms Company Light, is a bit of a mouthful.
Love your Forgotten Weapons channel.
I've heard both that it stands for *Brno*, *Enfield*, B*SA*, *Light*
Or that it's a contraction of "British Small Arms factory (BSA), Light", i.e. since BSA was also making the BESA, a heavier Czech-derived machine gun, they would name this the same thing but with an L for "light" at the end.
I really enjoy your videos. You have done your research. And your knowledge is ist class. Thank you very much,
Hi Ian, it is a fabulous historical archive that you produce, thank you very much. This is an educated guess about how the name might have come about; any Brit biker who remembers BSAs as a common sight refers to them as a Besa, as pronouncing each letter seems a mouthful. Add L to that (for Light) would seem logical. Cheers
The BESAL was designed by Henry Faulkner, who also was heavily involved in the manufacturing of the BESA MMG. The BESA name origin came from the Birmingham Small Arms company which was abbreviated to BSA but pronounced as "BESA".
This weapon is an LMG as apposed to its big brother which is an MMG. The BESAL stands for BESA-Light or Faulkner after its namesake developer
This is unfeasibly cool - I didn't even know about this MG!
The BREN GUN was NOT British. It was a Czech weapon that we (UK) bought the manufacturing rights to, a .303 weapon. The Light Machine Gun was a 7.62 mm version. It had a 30 round magazine that was interchangeable with the 20 round mag of the SLR. The SLR was a Belgian FN rifle made in Britain BUT without a full automatic setting. The SLR, unlike the current 556 weapon WOULD penetrate body armour. Interesting is that we are now looking to back to 7.62. The current rifle was NOT designed as 556mm but was adapted so that we used the same ammo as the USA, despite the fact that NATO agreed on 7.62mm.o
When it comes to machining anything, there are two important questions: How are you going to hold it, and What order are you going to cut it. A third question is often What tool will you use to make each cut.
If these were going to be mass-produced in garage shops, a lot of time could be lost and parts scrapped or not made to correct tolerances if those questions had to be figured out by every machine tool owner on their own. I have to wonder if there were detailed "kit building plans" that described step by step how to make the various parts. And if they ever existed, I wonder if they still do.
How did it shoot,/function, Bren was very reliable weapon was the Besal on par with the Bren with the reliability??
that thing looks awesome
Great video! More details of the receiver fabrication would have been interesting.
I wonder why there weren't more weapons with the mag sticking out of the top. I mean, when prone it's easier to replace and the sights being shifted to the left (or right, depending on whether you're left-handed or not) won't matter THAT much on a weapon which is not really designed to be a DMR in the first place.
44WarmocK77 it has to do with field of view, you may be able to see straight and away from the mag but itdefinitely obstructs a large area of view
But having a mag next to your face effectively halves your sight cone.
Hmm, yea I guess I need to consider how close your face is to the mag when you're prone, that's a different animal when compared to kneeling or standing. So it would probably be smarter to use a double-drum mag instead of a box mag since the drums would be on either side of the receiver, or a pan mag like on the Lewis Gun.
Most LMGs in ww2 had top mounted magazines. Bren, ZB vz. 26, ZB vz. 30, Type 96, Type 99, DP 28, Vickers-Berthier, FM 24/29, Madsen gun, Vickers K, Lewis Gun, MG-34 (with special top cover). All top mounted magazines. Seven of them box, 3 pans, and a single double drum.
Gotta go through my books about the weapons of WW II again, I thought pretty much all of them (with a few prominent exceptions like the Lewis and the Madsen) were belt-fed from the side. Ôo
I thought BESAL was kind of an abbreviation of BESA Light,as it kinda resembles their previous MG "BESA"
The Besal name comes from BSA (Birmingham Small Arms) and Light, since it was lighter than the Besa which was also made by BSA.
thanks for making this video
Lebanon bought Staghound armoured cars from the british, in the 1950’s. There was in this armoured car a coaxial machine gun, called Besa, made by the british under a czech license. It was in 7.92 mauser caliber, and had a 2 speed rate of fire, and it was an excellent machine gun, which can be used only from within a turret. It could be that your Besal, could mean, Besa light.
Just a nitpick but I think the locking device on the back is better described as one of the mounting points for the Bren tripod/AA mount or a vehicle mount, as there is a similar point at the centre of the weapon (same as on the bren)
Thanks Ian. That was interesting. I like how they were able to take a quick stab at developing it and come up with something that wasn't that bad.
One thing though - is that the difference between such as the Last Ditch weapons for Japan and this weapon - was the fact that Japan did go on to lose the war. Had Germany successfully invaded Britain (which I do not see ever standing a chance of happening whether they tried it or not) this _would_ have been a classic "Last Ditch" weapon of a defeated nation.
.
I adore your channel
Any chance we're getting a video on that Swedish K behind you? It would make my month.
It was an acronym BESL MG - Britain Emergency Simplified Light Machine Gun.
I have been informed that BESAL comes from the nickname for BSA motorbikes which is BESA (pronounced beeza) and then just an L on the end for light machinegun. However as the quality of this evidence amounts to "what my mate said down the pub" more than one pinch of salt may be in order.
Been related to a BSA (Bastard Stops Anywhere) may not have been a good thing.
I was reading a article on Faulkner and it states as he was the designer of the BESA gun and the Besal was just a larger version of Besa ,so one would guess the letter L was added just to denote it was larger , giving you BesaL .
Never heard of it, super interesting!
I know the name BESA comes from the way you pronounce the acronym for Birmingham Small Arms company (BSA) so I wouldn't be surprised if they added an L to stand for 'Light' or something similar. As I think the acronym for 'Gun, Light, Machine, Faulkner, .303-inch' is rather ugly.
LeCuTuS1991 The Gallumph!
Thanks for the reply...
ian ever since i was a kid ive always wanted an american with cavalry mustache to explain obsecure guns to me thanks so much for existing
I believe it was called besal so it would not be confused with the Besa machine gun, which was a tank mounted machine gun.
This is like the Volkssturmgewehr but in fancy. This is a truly genius system.
I'd love to see a video on the BESA as well. You dont see much info on them even though they are talked about as a common item at the time.
BSA motorcycles are referred to as Beezers , the acronym of the letters. Besal is probably an acronym of BSA Light.
"Dude, what the fuck happened to Gun Jesus? Did he have a stroke, or is he drunk?"
"Turn the x0.75 off, stupid."
(actual conversation)
The BESA was the primary Commonwealth tank-mounted coaxial MG during the war. At first glance, I'd guess the BESAL is a lightweight, infantry-portable version of the BESA.
BESA-Lightweight -> BESA-L -> BESAL.
BESA *Light* probably. The BESA already being a machinegun used in British AFVs - Birmingham Small Arms BSA.
That way of cocking the gun is super interesting. Never seen that on anything else I can think of, though it sounds like the Czechs designed something else with it. Why isn’t it used more? Seems like a good system for machine guns, anything likely to be on at least a bipod like that would be decently ergonomic. Might be awkward on a rifle. But it eliminates parts. It kind of eliminates an opening since the ejection port and the path for the charging handle are the same space. If you’re fighting a heavy spring this might give you enough purchase to eliminate the leveraged cocking handles like on old HMGs, as long as you have a stock to brace against and a pistol grip to pull you can pull back with way more force than pulling on a metal knob with one finger.
It was used on the postwar vz. 59 machine gun, Ian has a vid on it too.
Interesting … so what is the weight of this model vs the weight of the BREN it was supposed to replace?
The pistol grip cocking mechanism reminds me of the system used on the BESA machine guns.
BSA. Colloquially referred to as Besa or Beeza. There was a (medium?) machine gun called the Besa, I believe, so I imagine the L comes from Light.
Surprised that they didn't issue the bessal to the home guard!!!
I've always loved to see Last ditch weapon prototypes, Always easy and cheap to produce.
This reminds me, do you think you'll ever get a chance to get a look at that 7.62 Sterling that uses Bren mags?
I know you did a short post about it years ago, but it'd be interesting where it came from and where it is now.
Did they not consider just using these instead of the bren? was it too worse? wasn't it cheaper enough?
As Ian mentioned at the end, the BREN production was up and running and the gun itself was formidable. Thus the ordonance department did not want to change the procurement of a light machine gun.
The Bren wasn't issued to every man like the M3 and Sten were. There might have been one for every squad but that is less than the common soldiers weapon.
Jamesyboy31 Actually,smgs weren't issued to that many soldier.Except for Russian.
I believe that the added complication to the logistical train during a time of war, when all British industries were already stressed and supplies were restricted was the reason that the Besal wasn't adopted, though the design was definitely kept as a reserve in case there had been a problem with Bren production.
Seems like it might have been a promising basis for further development post-war, perhaps adapted to belt feed.
Love your vids man keep em going peace from Australia also I would love if you could do a video on the austen
Yes! C'mon Ian, do the Austen
Love the fact you refere to great Britain insted of england:)
Kinda suprised I can't find videos on the Besa in 8mm or 15mm. It'd be fun to see both in a video!
Anyone else hates it when he introduces himself as Ian McCullen? It's like "No, you're Gun Jesus"
From what I can find its Abbreviated from Brno, Enfield, BSA, Light.
The term BESAL is just a conglomeration of the manufacturer and the type of weapon. British forces often give their equipment simplified nicknames to remember the equipment name. So BESAL just comes from the BSA and Light machine gun as it is easier to say “BESAL” than it is to say “B S A Light machine gun.”
A very interesting weapon - given their financial position vis a vi lend lease, I’m surprised they didn’t replace the more expensive BREN.
I watched this video immediately after watching the Breda Modello 30 video. The difference is... striking, to put it mildly.
'BESA' was a nickname of Birmingham Small Arms; BSA, and they produced the BESA machine gun, this was called the BESA-Light machine gun: BESAL.
Ian, are you familiar with the Besa machine gun? It is a licensed ZB-53 (TK vz. 37 in Czechoslovak service) used as a mounted belt-fed machine gun by the Royal Armoured Corps.
I spy, with my little eye, some sort of Mauser style cutaway rifle! I love me some cutaways.