Judo VS Chin Na (Kansetsu Waza) 柔道 擒拿
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- Опубликовано: 17 май 2021
- This video discusses the grappling techniques of Judo, particularly the joint locking techniques, compare them to Chin Na, the chinese joint locks.
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Now that you mention it, my Aikido instructor was also certified in White Crane Kung Fu and Chin Na, and the way he showed me to do kotegaeshi was very different than how the rest of my Aikido teachers taught it. He put a lot more focus and pressure on the thumb line with turning it out, while a lot of Aikido people would just grab the wrist and rotate the hand with the secondary grip. It definitely made the wrist lock more effective, but as you said, it take a lot of practice and repetition to get accurate. He gave us some solutions to target it easier though.
He also believed that the joint locks and throws in Jujitsu and Aikido came from Chin Na. And he definitely loved that finger pulling, hurt sooooo much to demo. lol. Never proved the lineage, but the similarities are very close to each other! Thanks for sharing!
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Na
Some of these techniques are found in traditional karate Kata
Yee
Chin na is not really a "series" of techniques. That's like saying, "striking is a series of techniques". Maybe chin na is a category of techniques that involve grabbing holding locking.........
This. It's not so much a defined set of techniques so much as the subset of applications inherent to most (if not all) Chinese styles that involve those principles. Though I have to admit the ones from the video and/or variations of them are quite commonly found.
your Pedigree please??? Who are you? Please tell me your made up story. Chadi is an expert on this topic you should not dismiss him so easily.
Dude, chill, we're not dismissing anything. It's a slight correction. Chadi is an expert on grappling arts, especially Japanese ones, not a tcma practitioner. As for my pedigree I've been doing tcma for about 20 years now.
Muay Thai + Kyokushin Karate + Kodokan Judo + Qin-Na (Chin-Na) = Deadly Stand up Fighter of Kicks, Throws, Joint locks and Grappling.
Well it depends on who is fighting against who most of the time. For each person their is a difference.
Thirty seven years ago only Grand master Shuem lum of Ying jow Pai (eagle claw kung fu) taught the 108 locks of Chin na in the United States.
I understand that WAS the original Eagle Claw Kung Fu, but, later, someone combined it with a "Shaolin" art and all the Wushu-type jumping and kicking which would become a defining part of it.
@@varanid9 Correct. Ying Jow Pai(eagle claw kung fu) is the traditional version with Leung Shum and the Lau Sisters being the most prominent masters we have available in the west. The wushu version isn't an actual style, but a flowery form that looks nothing like the traditional version. They include all these acrobatic jumps and funny looking postures that are made to look spectacular but ultimately useless. Nothing on how to use or apply chin na. Now eagle claw is a northern kungfu style so it has some jump kicks but nothing like the wushu form requiring extreme agility.
I'm not sure what your getting at. Certainly Master Shum brought "his" Eagle Claw to the USA, probably before anyone else. If however you are trying to imply that only chin-na taught by Master Shum is authentic. And if you are trying to insinuate that anyone esles study of chin na must be suspect you are dead wrong. I never met Master Shum, but I do respect what he, and his early students, did to educate the American public on "Eagle Claw". But Chin-Na is always taught in Chinese Martial Arts styles, always. Some emphasize it sooner than later, and more or less, but it is always taught. Eagle Claw does not own chin na. My own study of chin-na began in either 1980 or 1981. And I know for fact that Master Willy Lin taught Chin-Na as part of his Tien Shan Pai system of kung-fu as early as 1971 in Washington DC. Whats your point? What? Only the 108 locks of chin na mean something? 108 techniques are useless if you haven't mastered one in the first place. 108 is just a number based on Chinese superstition. Pride is it's own evil.
Don't have a sacred cow man. Good luck dude.
@@stefanschleps8758
you just want argue for argument sake. I said Sifu taught 108 chinna , I didn’t say others didn’t teach chin na.
Chadi, I hope you do a second part. I always love your videos, very entertaining and informative.
How I learned is when you grab someone you're isolating your own thumb which makes it easier to catch. It just takes lots and lots of reps for it to become second nature.
Good video, it’s always fascinating the variances in throwing/ grappling, I haven’t heard about chin na since the 80’s when I would go into martial arts stores and read books on chin na off the shelf, great memories
My thoughts exactly. I would do the same at Asian World in Philadelphia in the 80's. The guys working there would let us hang out and watch videos and look at books. Chin na always looked interesting
Chi-na has over 500 different techniques dealing with locks, breaks, sealing the veins, pressure point strike's and manipulation. It's practically the science of grappling itself. Mastering this art will increase your chances in a street fight, if you know what you're doing.
Training 500 techniques once, or training a single technique 500 times.
@@KoRNeRdTraining 500 techniques 250,000 times
Or training 500 techniques 1000 times
There is but one word to describe this short documentary.... fantastic!
Super interesting Chadi! Thanks
Thank you for sharing, Chin na is really interesting, keep up the awesome work.
Great video on a topic thats seldom discussed!
As an Aikidoka and Chin Na practitioner, I am very appreciated in your studies. Keep going Chad.
I love this. Thanks 🙏
More gems from Chadi.
🙇🏻♂️
Good comparison of locks video. Thanks.
Excellent work 👍
There are more variety of chin na as well. Love it
Nice videos and great 👍staff go ahead chadi
Love this channel. Also agree with you on the thumb.. I think if you can pull off a wrist lock like that, your follow up may be to the thumb once you have him down but you aren't getting it that easily in a scramble or fight.
Thank you Mr. Chadi,
for a very nice, knowledgable and insightful narration. May be it is not your problem, the seuence of nice Chin-na presentation were not commented in terms of DISTANCE, w a Horizontal approach., which determines the technique to be chosen.
-I appreciated the first Kote-finger or wirst blocks at Long distance
-Then came then the wrist blocks whjile stepping roughly sidewas,
-Ultimately completed by elbow or even armblocks achieved thanks to Aikido like Tanka or iven ura or irimi tenkan turns
Another aspect is the level. Being kicked while sitting raises a so called Vertical approach. blocking or EVEN CATCHING A a kicking leg is for masters, similarly as tvertical
The one decidinsive which of the techniques to use. Special thanks for those old-timer videos esteemed Grandmasters of JUDO such as Mifuno and Kimura.
Best regards and best wishes. Paul, 68, retired instructor of Karate, self-defence and fan of Martial arts , Chin-Na involved. .
Shorinji Kempo includes a lot of this details ! Just the thumb thing on what you call "Kote Gaeshi", it depend how is the grab at first. In SK, it's call "Maki Gote", look it up.
Thanks for your work.
Origins of japanese jiujustu
Once you start examining the actions of joints, you end up finding many different variations not found in kata or specific styles. Great video, as always.
Just twist, bend, or extend to slightly beyond the limit of the normal range of motion.
According to your "expert" troll , there are no common characteristics with Chin Na & Judo . Thoughts on dim mak would be interesting .
I wasn't sure if I heard Chadi correctly or not. But it is very much an art all on its own. And within Chinese martial arts styles you will find chin-na applications in every style. At least all the major styles I have studied. He is right in that chin-na does require high level skill to use effectively. Chin-Na as it is appreciated within Chinese martial arts society, is an example on the part of the artist that his skill is higher than the person receiving the lesson in humility. All Chinese arts contain the four categories of combat. Kicking, Striking, Joint-locking, and Throwing. Since no ones bothered to answer you. Tien Hsueh ( Dim Mak) is very real, but far more difficult to master than simple Chin-Na. But with the awakening of the Guardian Chi many interesting things happen. And you may find yourself expressing Tien Hsueh on an insolent attacker, without having studied it! This is very rare, but it does happen. The first thing on this path is when your eyes change. Chadi uses a picture of dr. Yang Jwing-Ming in the thumbnail. Dr.Yang has written the best and most authoritative accounts on CMA currently available. And "dim mak" is covered to some extant in two or three of his titles. I had the good fortune of attending a seminar with Dr. Yang and his skill in Chin-Na is first rate. I think he has written about twenty books on CMA. BTW I find the Bubishi to be practically useless in this regard, but a great historical referrence. All the best to you.
Laoshr #60
Ching Yi Kung Fu Association
@@stefanschleps8758 Do you have first hand knowledge dim mak actually works and has efficacy ?
You should also check out Ymaa white Crane chin na. Dr Yang Jing Ming. Also Wally Jay's Small circle.jui jitsu
Chin Na locking arts have more similarity w/Daito Ryu. I've not trained Chin Na but I've trained Daito Ryu. Many same locks are found in Daito Ryu.
Same with kuk sool and hapkido
@@samuelferrell9257 But you need to look historically at where they came from first and generally speaking I believe it went India-China- Japan/Korea. So it would make sense that Chin Na preceded Daito Ryu and hapkido. Of course there are only so many ways of doing things but still..
@@Polentaccio it didn't.
Never said they did. Just said that they exist in those arts as well. I'm well aware of the history of these martial arts and the techniques incorporated into them.
I would like to hear about your experiences of daito ryu
I have blended Chin-Na techniques to the most common blocking techniques of Win Chun, as well as some Aikido techniques and accu-pressure points, some basic Tae Kwon Do kicks and Kali, by the way Kali fits perfectly to Wing Chun. I do not recommend to trap a real punch, simply does not work, its better to block it or defflect it, redirect it, then one can do a quick grab and then proced to the apropiate technique.
Targeting the thumb is actually like hitting the second spot. There are multiple grips
Thank you for the upload Chadi. Chin na is a quintessential element of gong fu. As taught by 7 Star Praying Mantis & Shaolin gong fu: it incorporates the following precepts: muscle division; joint locking, ligament & tendon manipulation (for example place your forefingers on the palm side wrist & fold the hand over them, this restricts the movement & ergo elasticity of the tendons & ligaments thus increasing the likelihood of pain response) & nerve trapping e.g. vagus nerve depression!
You are a legend. Thank you. My Praying Mantis sucks. lol But we keep trying.
In Wally Jay's small circle jujitsu, one nearly always includes pressure on the fingers or smaller joints in the execution of various locks.
Do you practice it?
There is a lot of controversy with Chin Na and Aikido. As I understand and read that O’Sensei travel to China. And when he came back. He started working on creating Aikido. When I first started studying martial arts. I started with Poekalan Tjimdie. Kung Fu based on the 5 Animal Forms. Our training started with Hand to Hand Combat. And many of the techniques were derived from Aikido and Chin Na. As I researched the world of martial Arts I came upon Chin Na. Or Shin Na. Then I started training Aikido years later. I saw the working of Chin Na deep inside Aikido. Any statements on that??
That's been debunked, Aikido Creator didn' even like Kung Fu.
@@eagle162 And who did that. Cause as I trained in Aikido I see the similarities. And it was part of Poekalan. I remember years ago reading an Article in Black Belt Mag on what then was called. Shin Na. Very very similar.
@@bigsidable an article I came a cross a while ago I could try to get it again if you are curious about it, never rely on Black Belt Magazine only in the very early years can be said to be somewhat of a good source for Martial Arts info after that you get more Hollywood and fake promotional spectacles then actual info, no offense but that's art poekalam doing a quick look up on its history seems a little fishy, Art's can develop separately independently from one another you can see this all over the world, however if we want to suspect some connection it might be so actually the opposite, during late qing and Republican era an interest was taken with jujutsu and later on Judo as well.
Here's some articles to read on a subject.
zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/41150340
zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/82097898
zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/41435949
Should probably give you a heads-up though they are all in Chinese, they also all lead to the same source so you can read more from it if you want.
Nothing fishy about Poekalan. Willie Jay Wetzel. And his crazy son Roy. They were two badass men. Willie fought with the Dutch in the jungle of Indonesia Than with the American Forces in WW2 agantvthe Japenese. Roy fought in Vietnam. Dove on a grenade and all most lost his legs. Then he comes home to win The New Your Golden Dragon Society tournament in the 70s. Just when I got my Black Sash in 72. But thank you very much. Will be doing my research. @@eagle162
Tomiki's seventeen kata, its the 7th technique. Ude Gaeshi i believe, is the americana in bjj, but standing. Its used when the opponent resists ikkyo... its a barn burner of a technique i have wrecked people with it
Is this serious?
Not many people are going to allow you to just grab them - especially their fingers unless they’re hella drunk.
You grab my hand you’re exposed for a easy hook , jab, cross..
Great video again Chadi. I wonder why small joint locks aren’t as popular in judo now.
Because it's very easy to injure them in sparring.
Same thing in Aikido why they don’t have tournaments. Also, Chin Na is the prohibited set of techniques in Chinese martial arts tournaments too.
Chin Na is not sport and aikido is a “do” or “ tao.” Chin Na is a martial art/ or “jitsu” if translated to Japanese. But don’t underestimate judo. I used a lot of arm locks even during stand up judo as a shodan. . My Japanese 4th Dan Sensei was able to do a stranglehold while standing up . I also trained in aikido and Hapkido. Though I did not train so in-depth as in Taekwondo ( National level fighter) and judo, Chin Na locks will be effective when grappling on the ground. My Korean master’s style of Hapkido uses attacks on nerves and joints when on the ground. My Korean master was a 7th Dan Korean ex-Airborne Brigade captain who served two terms in the Vietnam War. I studied Shaolin Temple boxing for nearly two years before going overseas to study where I met my Korean master.
@@supershooter20 if it's not trained as a sport,then it's not effective and you wont be arm locking anyone bigger standing up,grappling advantage is on the ground,that's why it works.
@@scarred10 : Disagree. It depends on the rules but truth be told, even MMA rules are restrictive. Sport can help but in a real fight, all rules are out the window. I fought in the 1970s Taekwondo tournament and in judo tournament. Ultimately, you realise that both arts left out many lethal techniques. In judo, you can use an neck crank or arm bar to throw your opponent ( that’s illegal in MMA) and I will kick to the knees with shoes on. Problem with sport is that if you train for sport, that how you will fight. If one is in the “no-mind” state (call it adrenaline or being “in the zone”) your body will react the way you are trained. I have also trained in Hapkido and shaolin, and we make the rules as we go on. I came to the stage that I would train in striking vital points and realised that my training partner was my son. So I stopped.
What if they don't grab your wrist?
Chin Na is more or less a complete collection of techniques, so all techniques than can be done. Not all of them are very practical.
Kote Gaeshi is not going to work in MMA dude to the wrist wraps however, I have used in multiple times in BJJ, both in training and in competition, to great success
ruclips.net/video/g6Wp961ya44/видео.html Chin Na Fa kung fu in 1932
...hmm chin na means to seize and cintrol..it's a category and most arts have some version of it..it's not a style and it's not exclusive to one style...there's diferent clasifications
I've known some Chin Na practioners. They were never able to get me because I don't over commit. BUT, when I got in the clinch, my friend surprised me. I do not believe that Chin Na works with jabs and boxing style of fighting. But, once my friend tied me up and got me off balanced, he grabbed and locked me. I think Chin Na needs to be part of a set of skills, not just Chin Na
Did you find any old chi na footage? All my research implies that while grappling obviously exists in every culture, chi na and Shuai jiao documentation appears after 1882 and Japanese influence. I find dates implying this being older but no real hard evidence. Your video for instance was probably guys who just saw aikido and tried to mix it into their system and claim it was always there
Chin na is the root of all joint locking arts , Hapkido , aikido, Japanese jujitsu , etc... Very effective I have made many bjj guys tap with chi na . When you allow pressure points and small joint locks guards open everything changes and they let go
Sure you have buddy
@@hattorihaso2579 yup that’s what I said . Everything has weaknesses
@@okish02 eeuhm yeah but no way in hell you tapped legit grapplers with chin na 😂
Unless you have a high level of sport grappling yourself ,you are tapping nobody with chin na, only sport grappling is effective in combat,and standing locks have very limited effectiveness in any art.
@@hattorihaso2579 uhh yea .. that’s what I’m talking about
I will be publishing a new book later. Will send you the link through email
Yue Fei techniques!
Yes, mostly all Japanese/Okinawan martial arts stem from China! The history is very fascinating!
Hey chadi, have you check out that article I gave you yet curious to hear what you found interesting and that RUclips channel TriEssence Martial Arts.
Bonjour Chadi
qinna(chin na) is practise a lot by military police of China.
is not designed for dueling. its designed for assult and sudden capture normally from back or the side. so no need to go to ground.
Ya I learn cinafa. My version is all together with punch. You can't use lock in real life if you train like that. Shaolin version is good one. Hotu, ipucuancui, ne sou, kuncui, tiefancin and many more
Chinna is more detailed than aikido, but aikido has their rotating leg, so they can use takemusu aiki much easier
The 4:55 is also exist in aikido, but in higher level of aikido (not belt color, belt color in aikido is just for safety reason)
Yeah, those martial arts always work against a willing oponent.
You can also check out Red Dragon Kam La combos series on YT.
This looks ridiculously similar to Aikido.
Shuai Jiao/ Chin na fa/ Daito Ryu/ jujutsu/ bjj...
Is this something like Meridian Lines
Mmm not so sure
This is used qi is real in meridians and can generate colateral effect on attacker
Doctor Young Jwing Ming 72 joint locks of eagle claw matter of fact that picture you have on the presentation of the video is that man he has a whole series of Tai chi joint locks as well but that book I had at the top the eagle claw that's got all of you
👍🏽
Most all martial arts stem from China. Not a stretch to find to find variations of Chinese Chin Na techniques all around Asia.
Chadi, I must share some sincere critique on this video.
1. It seem to me odd to do a VS video with Judo and chin na, since chin na is ubiquitous in judo, by that i mean holds and grabs. Although they role of chin na have different roles. My impression of chin na in judo is mostly "grip fighting", holding lapells etc. In chinese traditions the chin na is more quick in order to shock or break the structure of the opponent - then do a smashing finish.
2. The source material on the "chinese stuff" was not so high quality. Use another video for comparison later? This barely tells anything of how chin na is used in chinese tradition.
You already know. But the use of chin na is determined by your skill level. Dr. Yang has very good chin na. I recommend him to you. Peace.
تحية كبيرة
👍🌼👍🌼
You should compare it more to Daitoryu aiki jujitsu,we have all those wrist ,hands etc plus throws,nasty ones so you don't get up and comeback at me
i would like to hear about your experience of daito ryu
Great video but as others have pointed out this is not really a accurate comparison. Chin na is a category within chinese fighting arts. Like striking, kicking or jiao (wrestling). It is not a series of techniques. It is a category for almost all joint locks, breaks & variety of different things. It exists within arts rather than being an art in & of itself. It would be a better comparison to compare for example, baihequan chin na or hung gars or taijiquan or eagle claws. Comparing it like this perpetuates the myth that Chin na is a art.
Edit: Also Kung fu is not a real thing. Gong fu is a concept about skill that later in the west turned into being the arts themselves. One should avoid making large claims about Kung fu because one is talking about literally hundreds of different fighting arts.
He did say "the umbrella of kung fu". It's shorter and simple than to say "the umbrella of traditional Chinese martial arts"
@@EzeHSK that is true. He said that ... But kung fu is still not chinese fighting arts & imo saying "umbrella of chinese fighting arts" is the ssme effort as saying "umbrella of kung fu".
There is also no need to add "traditional" to it. In fact i would argue it makes no sense to do so.
Well, he is talkng about traditional. Not sanda or some other more modern offshoot. And everyone understands what kung fu means in the west. Blame Bruce Lee, David Caradine or whoever popularized the term in the west, I don't think it's THAT bad.
Do one with my art hapkido
All this is in Okinawa Te
Nuclear warfare, Warfare, Riot, Brawl, Self Defense, Prison, Social Crime...
Weapons and Locks
What Police experience is with locks I do not know....
Appropriate
...But I think techniques have a place on a scale.
It's always "In a street fight....they won't work..."
It's just an inappropriate use of technique. (verbal, locks, guns...)
I'm here to find poomsae applications
I have a dvd on chin na could easily be jujitsu the techniques are so similar hence there is no such thing as STYLE!!!! in fighting.
Chin na is na=grappling.joint locking. Also kungfu isn't a chinese word. The word is goungfu^^ & goungfu is not a cma=chinese ma. Goungfu is cooking.dancing.ect. goungfu=skill obtained through hard work and dedication ^^ cma is not goungfu. Cma has 2 forms 1.wushu=war method this wushu is trained by training in traditional Chinese weapons. &shud not b confused wit goushuwushu=nationalistic wushu this is the jumpy flashy wushu. The other from of cma is
quanfa=fighting in Quanfa we have ti=kick.knee.stomp da=punch.palm.elbow. shuai grappling&throwing na=grappling.joint locking.ground fighting one of the oldest way to differentiate wushu from hand to hand fighting is by calling it Jiao li^^ jiao li is a term used bak in song dynasty ^^
I Would Like Add , qi is real , and acupressure points can generates colateral effects on attacker.
Same stuff just different variation . Learn from all of them. There is no 100 percent that it will work on everyone. But one of these version might work perfectly. You don't look for it it just happens.
so chadi I have thought and think through logically and I have decided to learn seven of the best Combat Sports of all time which are used and practiced more in ufc/mma Sanda kyokushin karate Taekwondo ITF muay Thai combat sambo BJJ boxing I want to be a boxer kickboxer fighter and martial artist and with these seven Combat Sports I will do it, I'm 21 I still got time and i know what i want
Go for it
@Christian Tate thanks
@@Chadi and thanks i might add krav maga but i will have to wait and see
@@gerardocovarrubias3058 I’m rooting for you sir.
@@michaelterrell5061 thank you
the chin na techniques seem extremly difficult to pull off.
Yes they can be...however, with lots of practice it can be made less so. It helps when the attacker is caught off guard and surprised by your reaction. Plus, in reality strikes are also taught to be used in conjunction with the grappling techniques to make them more effective.
Chin-Na si more painful
I am a small man would not use locks on a bigger man
Fingers hurt a lot worse. Owwwww
Jiu jitsu is more for taking the whole arm out
Chin Na is typically taught and practiced by a lot of eggs. Like most Chinese martial arts they unfortunately put a lot of emphasis of the mystique rather than the practicality of it.
Chin NA FA very efect.
So basically it all came from gong fu or aka Chinese martial arts