it specifically states two OTHER unitS implying plural. AoS has rather literal rules writing due to key words and rule interactions. If you select one twice, you are only picking ONE other unit TWICE, this is not equivalent to "Two other units" Have a solid gut feeling that this would be ruled not in your favor in anything other than a friendly local gamestore setting. Now, if we had a way to get 2 heroes with warlord traits to both do this on a unit, that would be something.
This is great news! I didn’t know about it, but it gives Coalesced some fun “bombing run” plays with big units you can slam in and buff to hell. Love the idea of a 30 saurus block just chilling in the middle of enemy lines on t1, or doing a flank after an enemy has exposed themselves
I don’t think you can regardless if the ability lets you pick the same unit twice. Section 8.0 of the core rules clearly states “once you have made a normal move, run or retreated with a unit, it cannot be picked again in that phase”.
Yeah, Section 8 is about the Movement Phase. But that is an interesting point. I'd assume Section 1.6 applies (as it does with most abilities that modify core rules): If the effect of an ability modifies a core rule, then all restrictions that apply to the core rule still apply unless the effect specifically notes otherwise. e.g., Gotrek can pile-in twice per phase because his warscroll ability modifies a core rule.
@@CalebHastings Yeah that's a fair point as well. My theory is that section 8.0 doesn't specifically mention the movement phase, it says the phase. So I am assuming it applies to movement regardless of the phase the movement is taking place. I could be wrong though
I’ve been using this for a while with my kroak list. It’s incredibly helpful for rotations through territories with a singular unit on missions like the pulse. Has defo helped me win games and was probs what helped me secure a 5-0 somewhat recently. Also great to have that 24” movement on a single unit of aggradons just to scare your opponent and keep them away from objectives.
I asked this at the time, and the verdict seemed to be you didn't even have to be in range after the first move to pick the unit again. Apparently you pick all the unit(s) and then move! So no need to keep up with the Aggradons after their first move even. Always tell my opponent before the game haha, such feel bad otherwise.
Unfortunately, no... Section 8.1 of the core rules: 8.1 NORMAL MOVE When you pick a unit to make a normal move, you can move each model in that unit a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move characteristic shown on the unit’s warscroll. Units cannot move within 3" of enemy units when making a normal move. Units cannot make a normal move if they are within 3" of an enemy unit.
How about this for a list? Added Levitate in it as extra spell, just so that there's a double chance of getting the warriors to fly. Strat: The big block of 30 warriors, like in your video, move and run them up to the enemy's ranks, with the carno behind. Then make a charge with them and fly over the screen. The screen is then charged by the carno, while the warriors take down the juicy hero target(s) behind the screen. Added a unit of aggradons for some better movement and being able to contest on the other side of the map. Same for the raptadons, so that you have an extra hammer unit on objectives and open up that skink battle tactic. Not too sure if the list is viable, but this warriors/carno combo immediately sprung to mind 😂 Allegiance: Seraphon - Constellation: Koatl's Claw - Grand Strategy: Realmshaper Guardians - Triumphs: Inspired Leaders Slann Starmaster (290)** - Spell: Empowered Celestite - Spell: Telepathic Summons Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)** - Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact) Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (260)* - General - Command Trait: Vengeful Defender Skink Starpriest (130)* - Spell: Heavenly Frenzy - Lore of Primal Frost: Hoarfrost Skink Starseer (150)* - Spell: Heavenly Frenzy - Universal Spell Lore: Levitate Battleline 5 x Saurus Guard (140) 3 x Aggradon Lancers (190) 30 x Saurus Warriors (540) - Spears - Reinforced x 2 Units 5 x Raptadon Chargers (150) Core Battalions *Command Entourage - Magnificent **Andtorian Acolytes Additional Enhancements Spell Total: 1990 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 2 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 136 Drops: 9
im sure it dont work like that. it is an ability, so it is used only once, and them it aplies to 2 units, sure it can be aplied 2 times to same unit, but it would do them to move 1 time only. as you explained it, -ability is used -unit moves -ability is used again -unit move again so u would need to use 2 times the ability, only using the ability cant do the same unit move 2 times. im sure noone would allow this in a good tournament.
I agree, the ability is activated all at once not multiple times. So you have to pick your 2 other units and then the general then they each are able to make a normal move. I think people are kinda reaching on this one. I haven’t seen other Seraphon players bringing this up. You don’t get to just stop the ability mid way and reactivate it. Just pick the units, once selected, they get to make a bonus move. Ability over.
It’s been used in tournaments, but if it becomes a “Kroak Bomb” level threat then it’ll get fixed. As it is they’re probably looking at and feeling since it’s not being heavily exploited then it’s not worth fixing.
For what it's worth, I think the phrase 'to EACH' make a normal move is an indication that this another badly written rule that should have said 'different' but doesn't, leaving it open to an exploitation of the FAQ
Yeah, I'm definitely doing some rules lawyering! :) "different" units might be Rules as Intended... but they def didn't include "different" in the rule! ha In typical GW fashion, they frustratingly don't use standard language for all their rules.
@@CalebHastings typically the words "Two Other" directly implies two separate units, not the same unit twice. Otherwise it would specifically state "EITHER two other units OR one other unit twice."
The only problem i see here is that if u double vengeful defender a unit (especially Aggradons), they will probably be out of range for mystic shield, hoarfrost etc. so no buffing up.
it won't. godseekers has had this for far longer and has been cleared up and wasn't FAQed. FEC had a similar interaction involving the same FAQ with one of their spells. Coalesced isn't broken by any means sitting at a 41% winrate and people r using this in events currently.
@@vinoshbagabathesewaran5147 Lets look at the wording for goodseekers: "At the start of each battle round, before the players receive their starting command points, you can move up to D3 friendly GODSEEKERS units that are more than 3" from all enemy units up to D6" (roll separately for each unit). Those units must finish the move more than 3" from all enemy units." It is very non descriptive on "move up to D3 friendly units" at "the start of the battle round" Then yes, you can clearly pick the same D3 unit 1-3 times depending on the roll. That is very clear and didnt even need an FAQ to clarify. At the start of the battle round move d3 units. no ability selection restriction like vengeful defenders. Look at the wording for Vengeful Defenders now: "At the start of your hero phase, if this general is wholly within your territory, you can pick this general and up to 2 other friendly SAURUS or KROXIGOR units wholly within 12" of this general to each make a normal move." We have a very descriptive clause now. "You can pick this general, and UP 2 OTHER" We are in the ability section of the command trait now. Its not a generalized at the start of battle round d3 units can move. It is clearly the general and 2 other units at that very moment being selected can make the move. Not oh i pick my general, I move him, I pick unit 1 and move him, and oh I get to pick unit 1 again and move him. The slannesh one is very generalized to where yes, you can pick unit A and move him. Oh we're still in the start of the battle round and i have 1-2 more choices now. I can pick unit A again and move him. VS the seraphon collective pick your 2--3 specified units right now in the hero phase, they all get to make a normal move now. Until GW releases an FAQ (shouldnt need one with how clear RAW it is) then this is cleary not the intended use of the seraphon command trait.
Except you have that pesky word OTHER in the sentence. Just because it doesn't say different doesn't mean applying standard English meanings doesn't apply.
"General and other" implies unit other than the general, not unit other than the unit. But... That is why the way GW words rules is so frustrating! It leaves room for interpretation in things like this which forces their FAQs all the time. For the same type of rule, they use a handful of modifiers (any, other, different, friendly, enemy, and sometimes no modifier). GW needs a standard phrase for many of these rules. IMO we have to default to one of the FAQs, where they say you CAN pick the same unit unless specifically stated otherwise.
it specifically states two OTHER unitS implying plural. AoS has rather literal rules writing due to key words and rule interactions.
If you select one twice, you are only picking ONE other unit TWICE, this is not equivalent to "Two other units"
Have a solid gut feeling that this would be ruled not in your favor in anything other than a friendly local gamestore setting.
Now, if we had a way to get 2 heroes with warlord traits to both do this on a unit, that would be something.
As a new AoS/Seraphon player thanks for your channel, I love it! 😊
Note that if you autorun you don't get the +1 to run rolls from the musician since there is no roll
I'm worried this might be a bit of a "feel bad" move for people, but good observation nonetheless
Yeah, definitely give them a heads up at the beginning of the match. These Warriors here move 5"... UNLESS.... :)
This is great news! I didn’t know about it, but it gives Coalesced some fun “bombing run” plays with big units you can slam in and buff to hell. Love the idea of a 30 saurus block just chilling in the middle of enemy lines on t1, or doing a flank after an enemy has exposed themselves
I don’t think you can regardless if the ability lets you pick the same unit twice. Section 8.0 of the core rules clearly states “once you have made a normal move, run or retreated with a unit, it cannot be picked again in that phase”.
Yeah, Section 8 is about the Movement Phase. But that is an interesting point. I'd assume Section 1.6 applies (as it does with most abilities that modify core rules):
If the effect of an ability modifies a core rule, then all restrictions that apply to the core rule still apply unless the effect specifically notes otherwise.
e.g., Gotrek can pile-in twice per phase because his warscroll ability modifies a core rule.
@@CalebHastings Yeah that's a fair point as well. My theory is that section 8.0 doesn't specifically mention the movement phase, it says the phase. So I am assuming it applies to movement regardless of the phase the movement is taking place. I could be wrong though
The double move is fine and all, but I’m more excited for 36” range endless spells in their face turn 1. Safely from outside unbind range
I’ve been using this for a while with my kroak list. It’s incredibly helpful for rotations through territories with a singular unit on missions like the pulse. Has defo helped me win games and was probs what helped me secure a 5-0 somewhat recently. Also great to have that 24” movement on a single unit of aggradons just to scare your opponent and keep them away from objectives.
How does the armour save stack? I thought the maximum you can alter stats is only by +1
Coward, Double Run with an Old Blood on Carno and give him flight! MISSILE CARNO!
Oh! I like that idea!!!
I asked this at the time, and the verdict seemed to be you didn't even have to be in range after the first move to pick the unit again. Apparently you pick all the unit(s) and then move! So no need to keep up with the Aggradons after their first move even.
Always tell my opponent before the game haha, such feel bad otherwise.
Hi guys,
Can you move units that are engaged to make a normal move with vengeful defender ? Thanks
Unfortunately, no... Section 8.1 of the core rules:
8.1 NORMAL MOVE
When you pick a unit to make a normal move, you can move each model in that unit a distance in inches equal to or less than the Move characteristic shown on the unit’s warscroll. Units cannot move within 3" of enemy units when making a normal move. Units cannot make a normal move if they are within 3" of an enemy unit.
Hey@@CalebHastings, that's what I understood, thank you for your answer!
To make unità fly without the Slann in the list u can use the Levitate spell
I totally forgot about those core rule spells! Haha.. yeah, that could be a great pick. AND it has 18" base range!
How about this for a list?
Added Levitate in it as extra spell, just so that there's a double chance of getting the warriors to fly.
Strat: The big block of 30 warriors, like in your video, move and run them up to the enemy's ranks, with the carno behind. Then make a charge with them and fly over the screen. The screen is then charged by the carno, while the warriors take down the juicy hero target(s) behind the screen.
Added a unit of aggradons for some better movement and being able to contest on the other side of the map. Same for the raptadons, so that you have an extra hammer unit on objectives and open up that skink battle tactic.
Not too sure if the list is viable, but this warriors/carno combo immediately sprung to mind 😂
Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Koatl's Claw
- Grand Strategy: Realmshaper Guardians
- Triumphs: Inspired
Leaders
Slann Starmaster (290)**
- Spell: Empowered Celestite
- Spell: Telepathic Summons
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)**
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (260)*
- General
- Command Trait: Vengeful Defender
Skink Starpriest (130)*
- Spell: Heavenly Frenzy
- Lore of Primal Frost: Hoarfrost
Skink Starseer (150)*
- Spell: Heavenly Frenzy
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
Battleline
5 x Saurus Guard (140)
3 x Aggradon Lancers (190)
30 x Saurus Warriors (540)
- Spears
- Reinforced x 2
Units
5 x Raptadon Chargers (150)
Core Battalions
*Command Entourage - Magnificent
**Andtorian Acolytes
Additional Enhancements
Spell
Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 136
Drops: 9
Nice! Might suffer outside of that one unit of Warriors... but OH BOY that will be one JUICED UP unit of Warriors!!!
im sure it dont work like that.
it is an ability, so it is used only once, and them it aplies to 2 units, sure it can be aplied 2 times to same unit, but it would do them to move 1 time only.
as you explained it,
-ability is used
-unit moves
-ability is used again
-unit move again
so u would need to use 2 times the ability, only using the ability cant do the same unit move 2 times.
im sure noone would allow this in a good tournament.
I agree, the ability is activated all at once not multiple times. So you have to pick your 2 other units and then the general then they each are able to make a normal move.
I think people are kinda reaching on this one. I haven’t seen other Seraphon players bringing this up. You don’t get to just stop the ability mid way and reactivate it.
Just pick the units, once selected, they get to make a bonus move. Ability over.
He addressed this at the start of the video folks
@@c-r And this doesn't feel rules as intended, it will get reworded.
This has been used in tournaments before. It's legit
It’s been used in tournaments, but if it becomes a “Kroak Bomb” level threat then it’ll get fixed. As it is they’re probably looking at and feeling since it’s not being heavily exploited then it’s not worth fixing.
For what it's worth, I think the phrase 'to EACH' make a normal move is an indication that this another badly written rule that should have said 'different' but doesn't, leaving it open to an exploitation of the FAQ
Yeah, I'm definitely doing some rules lawyering! :)
"different" units might be Rules as Intended... but they def didn't include "different" in the rule! ha
In typical GW fashion, they frustratingly don't use standard language for all their rules.
@@CalebHastings typically the words "Two Other" directly implies two separate units, not the same unit twice. Otherwise it would specifically state "EITHER two other units OR one other unit twice."
The only problem i see here is that if u double vengeful defender a unit (especially Aggradons), they will probably be out of range for mystic shield, hoarfrost etc. so no buffing up.
Yeah, Aggradons are fast enough they will be out of range for some of the buffs.
Hey Caleb, I’d like to share a list idea with you around this. Is there a way I can send it?
You can post it here! I try to read all comments... eventually! :)
I see you now have "AI Art Money" 😂
Hahahaha yep!
This is gonna get FAQd ridiculously quick if it starts seeing more play.
it won't. godseekers has had this for far longer and has been cleared up and wasn't FAQed. FEC had a similar interaction involving the same FAQ with one of their spells. Coalesced isn't broken by any means sitting at a 41% winrate and people r using this in events currently.
@@vinoshbagabathesewaran5147 Lets look at the wording for goodseekers:
"At the start of each battle round, before the players receive their starting command points, you can move up to D3 friendly GODSEEKERS units that are more than 3" from all enemy units up to D6" (roll separately for each unit). Those units must finish the move more than 3" from all enemy units."
It is very non descriptive on "move up to D3 friendly units" at "the start of the battle round" Then yes, you can clearly pick the same D3 unit 1-3 times depending on the roll. That is very clear and didnt even need an FAQ to clarify. At the start of the battle round move d3 units. no ability selection restriction like vengeful defenders.
Look at the wording for Vengeful Defenders now:
"At the start of your hero phase, if this general is wholly within your territory, you can pick this general and up to 2 other friendly SAURUS or KROXIGOR units wholly within 12" of this general to each make a normal move."
We have a very descriptive clause now. "You can pick this general, and UP 2 OTHER" We are in the ability section of the command trait now. Its not a generalized at the start of battle round d3 units can move. It is clearly the general and 2 other units at that very moment being selected can make the move. Not oh i pick my general, I move him, I pick unit 1 and move him, and oh I get to pick unit 1 again and move him.
The slannesh one is very generalized to where yes, you can pick unit A and move him. Oh we're still in the start of the battle round and i have 1-2 more choices now. I can pick unit A again and move him. VS the seraphon collective pick your 2--3 specified units right now in the hero phase, they all get to make a normal move now.
Until GW releases an FAQ (shouldnt need one with how clear RAW it is) then this is cleary not the intended use of the seraphon command trait.
Except you have that pesky word OTHER in the sentence. Just because it doesn't say different doesn't mean applying standard English meanings doesn't apply.
"General and other" implies unit other than the general, not unit other than the unit.
But... That is why the way GW words rules is so frustrating! It leaves room for interpretation in things like this which forces their FAQs all the time.
For the same type of rule, they use a handful of modifiers (any, other, different, friendly, enemy, and sometimes no modifier). GW needs a standard phrase for many of these rules.
IMO we have to default to one of the FAQs, where they say you CAN pick the same unit unless specifically stated otherwise.
Is this legit. Would love it to be been struggling with the saurus builds this would be a big help for them
Yep!