So more like fan fiction? The biggest out seems to be technical, in that we have no named author who has been wronged. If all texts were produced over a few years in this modern day, there would most definitely be plagiarism. What I think the real difference is, is that these stories are the collecting, adapting and recording of older legendary stories, so are really in the wrong category to have the term plagiarism applied. The writing just happens to have happened a long time ago. The one thing we do know, is that the bible texts were not original, and are the result of the authors and editors absorbing the cultures around them.
"The one thing we do know, is that the bible texts were not original, and are the result of the authors and editors absorbing the cultures around them." The cultures around them were part of the same broader cultural context they belonged to. So they were not absorbing other cultures, so much as it was their own culture
@@DanyAI92 I agree, but it doesn't mean they have no value, or no truth to them. Interpreting them as strictly historically accurate accounts, or rejecting them as worthless for not being historically accurate accounts, is missing the point. The ancients didn't really have our modern concept of truth when it came to stuff like this. It was more a matter of whether these stories had a moral or a meaning which is true. In terms of historical accuracy they just had more or less a best guess - the learned men have received this story passed down from the ancestors. If the jews adopted some of the early biblical stories from the babylonians during their exile, it would be because that is what the most learned men in the society they lived in said about what happened in the past. But then it when it came to the religious elements of the stories, they did not share the same religious beliefs as the babylonians, so they adapted them according to their own religious beliefs. The rest though was considered valuable pieces of knoweldge, so they utilised those parts.
@@lookatmepleasesir Yeah, I agree with you. I don’t mean to say that those stories are “worthless” at all. I even consider them to be fun and interesting. I’m simply against those people who want others to believe that everything mentioned in it historically happened and to accept it as the “Word of God,” that’s all.
I am so glad we live in a time where we have easy access to information at a fingertip or click. I am convinced that most, if not all religions cannot and likely will not survive in the internet age where we can easily learn what's in the Bible, Quran, Hadith, Torah, Talmud etc and expose it. Priests, pastors, imams, sheiks, rabbi's etc are no longer able to keep their followers in the dark and scam them as easily.
Learning about the intertextuality has been mind blowing. Now it all makes sense. I always wondered why stories were so familiar and as with the bible, we've never known who the authors of most books were. This lets us understand why. Thanks so much!
I'd never appreciated the significance of the Enlil/Enki vs Yahweh/Yahweh split between the two accounts before. Fascinating, and nicely presented as ever.
Ziusudra(from Atrahasis) became Noah in Genesis. That is how the near east was. Everything was adapted to bolster the israelite national identity and origin myth.
It's also in Hindu scriptures but names are different . Story is pretty much the same. Natural disasters happens during end of a cycle of ages. You have Adam and Eve . We have Adam and hawyavati but they are not first humans . They are the starters of few cultures cc to our scriptures. There story is pretty much very similar if someone actually read it lol. Theres not major diff between religions . Although they may seem diff from outside but they actually are not. You have Lucifer but we have Kalki purush except hes a demon from lower realms . hellish realms will be full and overcrowded like earth LL be .And yes God LL come to earth on a white horse and many mystics LL accompany him and he LL slain in millions . First he LL kill all kings who are thieves and then thieves who dare dress as kings . And LL restore natural order of things . Then a new cycle LL start. There are many prophecies related to this age in which all have come true till now although others seems unthinkable but maybe they LL also come true when the time comes .
And I think bible mentions that 4000 years age of humans but I think it mentions the start of this age because that exact time was when this dark age started on earth.
I have been reading all religious scriptures from the world and ancient texts for a while now and they all are so much similar that you have no idea but not a single one is copied this I can say.
Really enjoyed the clarity of the explanations and am looking forward to the entire series... _I choose to assume that the absence of a citation for "world's worst mullet" was an oversight during post-production._
Good video. I think people who say its plagiarism are usually trying to point out that its based on an earlier story so its not likely to documents history. It's not plagiarism its fan fiction.
I agree, I think people who say it is plagiarized are trying to point out to fundy literalists Christians that the story is not 100% original, and the bibles version is based on earlier versions, versions that are not of the same religion and culture, but rather versions that pre-existed the biblical text and came from a different religion and culture. Because many fundy Christians believe it is completely original to the bible and the story didn't come from anywhere else to any degree. In fact they think the other versions were borrowed or taken from the bibles version.
@@jinxy72able It's also in Hindu scriptures but names are different . Story is pretty much the same. Natural disasters happens during end of a cycle of ages. You have Adam and Eve . We have Adam and hawyavati but they are not first humans . They are the starters of few cultures cc to our scriptures. There story is pretty much very similar if someone actually read it lol. Theres not major diff between religions . Although they may seem diff from outside but they actually are not. You have Lucifer but we have Kalki purush except hes a demon from lower realms . hellish realms will be full and overcrowded like earth LL be .And yes God LL come to earth on a white horse and many mystics LL accompany him and he LL slain in millions . First he LL kill all kings who are thieves and then thieves who dare dress as kings . And LL restore natural order of things . Then a new cycle LL start. There are many prophecies related to this age in which all have come true till now although others seems unthinkable but maybe they LL also come true when the time comes .
@@miller0079 And such cyclical narrative is also present in Norse mythology, in which their escatology, Ragnarok, is also a cosmology since it ends with their Adam and Eve beginning the next cycle instead of a perfect paradise and the end of time, which means we arguably live not in the age of the gods, but in the aftermath of Ragnarok in the age of Nidhogg.
good point. i am guilty of calling it plagiarism, but watching this video gave me the common sense, which i should've had in the first place, to not call it plagiarism, but rather just stories that were word of mouth and written handed down throughout the Mediterranean, so hence, the bible. "fan fiction", i like how you put that. thanks.
This is the first video I am watching on this channel. I've enjoyed seeing Dr. Bowen on AXP with Matt Dillahunty. I'm now subscribed and looking forward to notifications. A couple minutes in and I have to say these look to be of good quality and informative, thanks.
I put this in the live chat, but after the video ended, so it didn’t save: I find it interesting that, for the biblical flood story, the raven (8:7) comes from the P source, & the dove (8:8-12) comes from the J source, since the Gilgamesh version has both the dove _and_ raven, plus a swallow. It’s interesting that the birds in the fully redacted version of Noah’s flood is more similar to Gilgamesh than its component texts. Presumably (this is a bit speculative on my part) what would’ve happened is that, when the Mesopotamian flood myth entered into Israel, the Israelite storytellers simplified the birds, condensing them into 1 bird, but different tellers simplified it differently. Some might’ve had 1 dove, or 1 raven, or 1 swallow, etc. So presumably J preferred the dove simplification, & P preferred the raven, & both simplifications got combined in redaction (ironically undoing the simplification).
@Carlos Alberto Cristobal Not exactly? I'm looking more to Neo-Documentary scholarship rather than the Classical Documentary Hypothesis. The Neo-Documentary Hypothesis, though subscribing to the same basic 4 sources of the classical hypothesis, is very critical of Wellhausen's methodologies.
They did the same thing with the number of days and nights it rained! I think that it was 7 days and nights for the Utnapishtim version and the Jews upped that to 40 days and nights!
It kinda makes sense that the Jewish Priests, who plagiarized from the Utnapishtim flood story, would shorten the name to a four letter word flood story!
What the problem is, is that many fundy Christians think that because there are flood myths all over the world, then that means the biblical story of the flood is true. They don't seem to take into account that many of these other versions pre-existed the biblical story, and came from other religions. And they don't take into account that the differences in the story show they are not consistent with one another, and therefore cannot be used to say that "because these other versions exist that means the bibles story is true". It is difficult to get through to them that even though the bible story was not plagiarized, certain elements in the story and the over all general concept were. That the story is not 100% original to the bible. If you tell fundamentalists it was plagiarized they point out the differences in the story. But they do not consider those differences when they try to claim that "because other flood myths exist, then that means the bibles story is true". So I think when atheists say it was plagiarized they are just trying to make the point that the bibles version is based on the other versions that came before it, and borrowed certain elements from those versions. Most people (unless they are scholars) do not know what Intertextuality is, or means. Most people just speak about these things colloquially and so the only word that most people know colloquially is plagiarism. So that is the word that is used even though it is technically wrong. I think if we used the word Intertextuality no one would know what was meant by that. And the fundamentalists would see that as the bibles version is 100% original and nothing was based on or borrowed from the other versions. So I think the word plagiarism is used to sort of make it a hard hitting point that this story is not 100% original to the bible. That it in fact has earlier sources, that it in part was borrowed from, or based upon.
It should be noted that almost all of the oldest civilizations originated near large bodies of water for. It makes sense for food and drinking water, but the trade off was dealing with floods. So it makes sense that they would have some myth about floods.
The standard apologetics response is that the Gilgamesh account predates Genesis 6. However the differences in the accounts are caused by the tower of babel incident, hence civilizations have different versions of the same flood story. However it assumes that a flood like that _actually_ happened, which is a wrong assumption. This is indicated by the non existent geological evidence for any worldwide flood in the 3rd or 4th millennium BCE(and even earlier). Hence the apologetics response is wrong.
It is not surprising that copying and adapting of origin stories of gods, nations and myths(heroes, floods, etc.) to ones own culture was commonplace. No copyright laws existed then. Or at least there was no one to enforce them(if there were copyright laws at all).
@Waxoff Waxon Tenochtitlan(founded 1325 CE) was untouched by any middle eastern influence. Taxila(1000 BCE) is even older than some Iraq's ancient cities. They was constructed without any plans imported from Iraq. So Iraq can only be seen as a model for the middle east. It is very specific. Ur was founded near 900 BCE. It is a late city. Jewish history refers to incidents more to the times of region of Canaan, which is the origin of Israel. This even more ancient. And jewish history is a composite of people of Canaan region. Abraham as a real person vs. Abraham as an invented patriarchal figure as the Father of the Jewish identity is a big scholarly dispute. That is down sometimes to one's opinions more than evidence for existence of Abraham as a real person.
Well the story in our Hindu scriptures also. These types of disasters happens during end of a cycle of ages. And yes you are right about some things about the Bible but stories are so common with the stories of our scriptures . I mean it's a vast topic to make you understand . Maybe I LL comment later. But believe me those are not made up stories . I mean some texts are obviously interpreted to make people serve who so ever is in power but there's so much truth in them . I can tell because of two things first teachings of Jesus some things he taught and said in a very unique way only a religious person who have a perception of God can understand and in no way those can be made up things . It doesn't matter which religion he/she is from . So which clears the doubt that Jesus was not a myth like some fools say . They are undoubtedly fools or maybe just attacking the culture or whatever . It's just politics which I don't care about Well I LL write later if you interested .
The Epic of Gilgamesh, which preceded even the existence of the Jews by maybe 1,000 years, was written by Mesopotamians who believed in a number of different gods...one of them was called EA. And, it was EA who told Utnampishtim to build a giant Ark( boat) and to take aboard 2 of every kind of animal because EA was going to make it rain for 7 days and 7 nights so that the whole earth would be covered. Utnapishtim let go several kinds of birds to test for dry land. The boat came to rest on a mountain top (but it wasn't called Mt. Ararat)! But, there was more to the story, which preceded the flood story, about the King Gilgamesh and his adventures...where he met a wild man who he "wrestled" with. There was also a hit of homosexuality! Then later, the goddess Isis came down and tried to tempt Gilgamesh sexually, but the wild man got jealous and killed Isis. Later, the two ran into a giant who killed and ate people and who lived in the cedar forest (Lebanon?). The two killed him, I think! So, you see, the origins of the Noah's Ark story is steeped in ridiculous fairy tail nonsense! There is absolutely No evidence that the earth was ever flooded! And most of those "universal" flood stories were all from peoples who lived in flood prone areas near rivers...just like the Mesopotamians did in the area of between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.
To be fair, just reading the biblical account and paying attention to the structure indicates that while it probably relies on an actual event, the narrative is interpreting that event by use of poetic structure, legendary motifs, and mythic elements. I'll admit that I didn't notice that in English, but in Hebrew the poetic, legendary, and mythic aspects are hard to miss, especially when you chart it out (as Hebrew students only in their third year of study are wont to do).
@@inspiredaction162 however,. Many vids show pagans latter copied biblical practices. See zeitgeist debunked. Lotta history, even from the pagan religious leaders Christ etc were accused of copying. They deny claims n say they came latter. Investigators show they came sum 300 yrs after Christ or so . Sometimes less time
I can't thank you enough for teaching us about intertextuality. Also, in the earlier versions of the flood story, the hero didn't plant a vineyard, grow grapes, make wine, and get stone drunk! Who needs foodgrains when you can make wine, eh? I guess that supports the argument for the story being intertextual in origin? They need to coin a term "pseudo -plagiarism! 😂😂😂
@Digital Hammurabi Very well organized and explained Megan Lewis! It is plausible that instead of either intertextuality or plagiarism, considering that other examples of this and other spiritual narratives exist in cultures separated by geography and time and ability to cross oceans away from Mesopotamia, and in fact all Asia, are possibly more easily attributed to human nature (God makers) than textual familiarity. Even in the theory of Pangea is described early travel away from the central origin of homosapien sapien that language in this detail could not have existed. Which is not to say I personally believe either explanation. Great video and I look forward to more content of the same genre.
Some say there are things never written and done that way on purpose . I guess it would be a great way to avoid plagiarism John 21:25 Take care and and good luck with the studies.
thank you soo much for this video!! I've seen so many that genuinely accuse the bible of plagiarism that before watching it I wrote a whole paragraph trying to explain cultural exchange and religion but you already explained it much better than i could!! I'm glad this video exists
Those who wrote the Bible (Old and New Testaments) did plagiarize their stories from the many other countries that conquered, or had contact with, Judea. Mesopotamia, Persia, Egypt, Greece, and Roman Empire were other countries who heavily influenced Judaism and Christianity! Simply calling Plagiarism by a different name doesn't change the fact that those who created the stories in the Bible obviously got the ideas from those more ancient, superstitious, goobers who just made stuff up because they didn't know the real answers! The Epic of Gilgamesh flood story is so obviously a precursor of the Noah's flood story! And so it is with some other Biblical stories...plagiarized from other, more ancient, religions. The Jesus story is an example. Born of a virgin, had 3 kings bearing gifts and guided by a star in the east to attend the birth of the "savior", having 12 disciples, healing the sick, making the blind see again, casting demons out of possessed people, dying on a cross (or similar: a tree in the same fashion*), arising again in 3 days, ascending to the heavens, and people believed that the "savior" would come back to earth some day!...All those things were plagiarized from more ancient religions way before that fictitious Jesus character was created by plagiarizing Christian Priests!
Excellent video and channel. I've started to look into Ancient Near Eastern myths and motifs and the intertextuality between them and the Old Testament and just wanted to get some feedback/thoughts on a couple things: 1. Fall of Man/Denial of Immortality - What do you guys think about the "Adapa and the South Wind" myth being a source tradition for the Fall of Man narrative in Genesis to explain why man was denied immortality? Apart from the similarity in name (Adam/Adapa), the Mesopotamian myth seems to suggest that Adapa (man), who was endowed with great wisdom and intelligence by god (Ea), is not immortal because he refused the food of life (immortality) from Anu (god) at Ea's (god's) instruction. Therefore, man is fated to remain mortal because of his obedience to Ea (god) in refusing the food of life. The Old Testament flips this narrative on its head and suggests that Adam (man), who was not endowed with intelligence or wisdom by god, is fated to remain mortal because of his disobedience to god and is therefore denied the tree of life. 2. God Resting on 7th Day - We all know that in Genesis, after 6 days of creation god rests on the seventh day. Is it reasonable to see parallels between this and the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh , where god (Enlil) brings the flood to destroy humanity because they were too noisy and disturbed his rest? In the Epic of Gilgamesh the flood raged for 6 days and on the 7th day the sea calmed and all day long there was quiet (the gods are now able to rest as all of humanity is destroyed). So in the Old Testament, god rests after 6 days of creation but in the Epic of Gilgamesh, god (Enlil) is able to rest after 6 days of destruction (since the humans who were disturbing his rest are now destroyed). I have two more questions but I'll stick with these 2 for now. Any feedback/thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
The immoral and criminal aspect of The Noah's Ark story lies in the author's presentation of the story as being historical. That is an intent to deceive the reader.
The six days of creation, the creation of Adam, the flood, Moses and the exodus are all plagiarisms of earlier Mesopotamian, Ugaritic and ancient Egyptian texts. When people plagiarize, they take an existing story then change some of its components around according to your new world views. However, the similarities are undeniable. The Israelites created a tradition based on other people’s myths and heritage. Besides, the stories themselves are scientific and historical myths. Therefore to have any core similarities between Biblical stories and earlier stories that are nothing but myths and legends tells you a lot about the Bible’s credibility.
So we can deduce that since gilgamesh came first then the character of Noah never existed and if the flood happened it was gilgamesh and his gods that cause it
I don't think the argument could be made for plagiarism in the Bible, mainly because it's just not how literature worked in the ancient world. That being said, I've also not found any examples that could be classified as "plagiarism" in the modern sense.
@@DigitalHammurabi makes sense and could that just be any culture in its evolution building off the old to make it more relevant or improve its ideology?. it would be interesting to see how religious thought and practice grow with technology. .
I get the point the video is making. However, what is not covered is why would the authors of genesis repurpose the story of the flood in the first place? Or to put it another way: why did they not come up with a unique story to illustrate the point they were trying to make? By the way, I really enjoy this channel; I find it not only interesting but also highly entertaining. :-)
I don't have a solid answer for you, but if I had to suggest something then it would be that by co-opting existing literature and replacing all gods with YHWH they were attempting to demonstrate YHWH's superiority over all over supernatural beings :) Creating something new may not have had the same "ours is better than yours" message.
"Or to put it another way: why did they not come up with a unique story to illustrate the point they were trying to make?" probably because they revered the motifs and acknowledged there was some truth to the other versions of the story.
Mesopotamia and the Bible - Intertextuality, or Plagiarism? Yes and yes. Bible is both plagiarism, and intertextuality. I don't even know what intertextuality is. But, it sounds just about right... Just joking. great video, saw u guys in tell tale's channel the other day.
More like taking a story's basic outline and remaking the details. I've touched on this more than once in my own vids. Many of the Hebrew stories are remakes of earlier ones. The great flood myth is practically identical in outline of ancient Sumerian fable. But you can find the story of creation and different versions of the serpent in African fable as well as Asian. You just can't get the fundamentalist to get past that--because they don't belong to a church, they belong to a cult. Regular Christians have some sort of reason--usually. Creationists don't. They are proven not only wrong by all genres of science but historical writings as well and they still don't get it. Because the fundamentalists are cult members. Plain and simple.
Now this explains why the supposedly "omniscient" God would conduct largest genocide in history and regretting for it afterwards. It was originally conducted by two different gods!
I think this is an interesting discussion because the books of the Bible were written at a time when Blagarism had not yet been invented and cultures spread through human interaction. That's why researchers instead talk about borrowing and common cultural material, while Balgiarism means stealing and exploiting a work protected by law. And although "borrowing" is a more lame and less sensational word than "plagiarism" or "stealing", I still favor the terminology used by researchers because it is more neutral.
I buy it, but I'm left wandering I mean, we know about "thou shalt not have any other Gods before me" & that the Bible refs other Gods. But dose the Bible say that no other Gods exist, Or where specifically it says other Gods are false? Thanks... if this even registers.
In my opinion, we are trying to apply modern concepts to ancient culture, and get contradictions that are not relevant to the discussion. The ancient authors were not attempting to write either reality based documents or commercial entertainment, but sacred texts for the use of priests in organized religions. These modern concepts, plagiarism and intertextuality, would mean nothing to ancient scribes, much as the idea of fact checking or the scientific method. If it served their purposes, “borrowing” anything from earlier and surrounding cultures was fine, if it made the ideas easier to pass off in the current circumstances.
They did it in ancient times for the same reason they did when they wrote the bible (old and new testaments)....so that the Kings or the Priests could control and manipulate all of the gullible goobers too stupid to know better!
Is there any chance that the writers of the Noah flood story heard the Gilgamesh flood story and just assumed that it had to be YHWH who did it? I'm saying did the writers of Noah believe the Gilgamesh Tales to be true? I know neither of you are psychic or possessing of any Supernatural ability that would make it so you could definitely tell me the mindset of people 2500 years in their graves, just wondering if you have an opinion?
I don't think they're assuming to know their mindset(s), but rather noting patterns. In the ancient Americas, for example, there were different cultures who shared core beliefs. A serpent deity was revered by all of them, but each had a different name for that god. To the Mayas, that god was known as Kukulkan. To the Aztecs, Quetzecoatl. Before the those people existed, there was a serpent god known to the Olmecs. The Olmecs are considered "the mother culture" of Mesoamerica. Succeding tribes adapted their belief system and retained the core, but the details of the stories naturally changed over time. We see the same thing in the ANE region, and China. Successive cultures share common stories, but the details vary. Reasons for change are multitude. It could be intentional for religious and/or political motives, or simply a natural progression of oral tradition.
@@vladtepes9614 in Hindu scriptures that serpent God is sheshnagg and king of serpents is Vasuki . They are diff dimensional beings that live beyond the realm of space and time and are unaffected by them. Among them there is one being that has witnessed all .
@@miller0079 Or.....perhaps serpents are revered as gods because they're deadly. These deities are based off of things that live here on earth, so what make you think they're "outside of space and time"? It's just an anthropomorphization of nature.
think of the stories as philosophy, outlining mystical and metaphysical principles and doctrines via symbolism, with the different versions reflecting different philosophical positions
@@vladtepes9614 because nature was believed to be the creation and reflection of the spiritual world and spiritual forces. Serpents themselves were not revered as gods - gods were associated with serpents because of various things that serpents were considered to represent and symbolise, like wisdom and natural forces, the earth, the underworld, chaos, etc
So would you then agree, that the authors were not giving a factual account of nature, as some people would assert? Because if they were, why would the author of genesis change any aspects of the story at all.
You completely overlook, or ignore, the fact that the biblical story is represented as the one true version by a huge percentage of Christians. Even some of the comments here try to suggest that the earlier versions were (somehow) based on the later biblical version. Debating whether this is a case of intertextuality or plagiarism is nothing more than a sad attempt to deflect from the fact that the biblical version of the story is BS.
Or, I really enjoy intertextuality on an academic level, and wanted to share my enthusiasm with RUclips. Nah, your assessment definitely makes a whole lot more sense. Thanks so much for telling me why I do what I do! Always helpful.
@@DigitalHammurabi I told you WHAT you did (deflected). WHY you did that is not my concern. If you need to ignore or twist the truth to placate your beliefs - that's between you and your conscience.
But that's not true because it states right in the Gilgamesh epic that the story was written by Gilgamesh himself. Who is placed on the Kings list. And gives historic legitimacy to his life.
Gilgamesh provides the dimensions and approximate material amount to a high degree of accuracy to build the coracle(boat) that was to "float" and last the flood. Genesis does not provide dimensions, instead it is used to include in the biblical cannon to add validity to the israelite national identity. Gilgamesh is more practical. Genesis is more interested in adapting the story to the israelite nation's origin myth. Both are adapted for very different purposes.
Genesis does provide dimensions. “Make yourself an ark of gopher wood, make rooms in the ark, and pitch it outside and inside with pitch. And this is how you will make it: 300 cubits the length of the ark, 50 cubits its width, and 30 cubits its height. You shall make a window in the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from the top, and you shall make the ark’s entrance in it’s side. You shall make lower, second, and third stories for it.” - Genesis 6:14-17 Atrahasis describes the ark as a coracle, Gilgamesh describes the ark as a cube, & Genesis describes the ark as a rectangular prism. (I agree, though, that the Coracle is probably the best of the 3.)
@@jamiee7367 I did not read the genesis passage though. Thanks for pointing my mistake out. However I found the parallels between the flood accounts as quite striking: Gilgamesh Tablet 11: _"On the fifth day I set in place her exterior; it was an acre in area; its sides were ten gar high; ten gar also was the extent of its deck; I added a front-roof to it and closed it in. I built it in six stories, thus making seven floors in all; the interior of each I divided again into nine partitions. Beaks for water within I cut out. I selected a punting-pole and added all that was necessary. Three šar of pitch I smeared on its outside; three šar of asphalt I used for the inside (so as to make it water-tight). Three šar of oil the men carried, carrying it in vessels. One šar of oil I kept out and used it for sacrifices, while the other two šar the boatman stowed away. I slaughtered oxen; I killed lambs day by day. Jugs of beer, of oil, and of sweet wine, like river water (i.e., freely) I gave the workmen to make a feast like that of the New-Year’s Day. To the god Shamash my hands brought oil. The ship was completed. Launching it was heavy work, and I added tackling above and below, and after all was finished, the ship sank in the water to two thirds of its height."_ Even though this account is also fantastical like genesis 6, the measurements for the Gilgamesh boat are far more detailed and as demonstrated by calculations(after converting to modern units) the boat can actually be made. Further more the static stability of a coracle is far superior to the cuboid arc of genesis. (cube is only slightly better, not as ,much as a coracle) This shows that the writer of Gilgamesh was well versed in boat construction, and the genesis writers just were more interested in how to include it in their accounts rather than check its practicality of construction by 600 year olds plus few helpers in a matter of few years. Here I am treating the Atrahasis and Gilgamesh accounts to be in the same boat(pun intended) as opposed to the Genesis Flood myth.
Acc to hindu scriptures he went to find immortality. I am just reading and researching all religions and ancient texts and you guys LL be surprised how common they all are . And I bet they are not copied from one another . I think some powers want the people to be divided on basis of religion and all.
@@miller0079 India was along trade routes with the near east(now middle east) since thousands of years. Ancient indian scriptures have some parallels with middle eastern scriptures. Later ones, like the upanishads and vedanta had more in common with greek philosophy. Atomism, souls, dualism and monism were kind of influenced by greek philosophy. This is all thanks to trade.
@@miller0079 Religions in the past had a lot of borrowing of ideas. Not like now where the idea of a religion with a unique and original story is accepted. Ancient religion is very different to modern religion. We cannot even imagine the fluidity of religious ideas of that time in our modern fixed religions.
To me, just because the Meso writings are older doesnt necessarily means the Bible writers took from it, thats a bold statement without any ways to confirm. One option could be that they have same origin, and the story of the same flood has been passed on from generations and locations, hence the differences in a similar story.
@@trvpmusic2569 If this is a response to my comment, by its definition (the action of declaring something to be untrue), my statement isnt denial, and i started with 'to me' so this is only my opinion, then i gave a plausible option which is totally possible, refusing their could be any possibility to this option would then be denial on your part, which you and everyone is entitled to do so. Cheers
@@thearamis and your opinion would be valid IF Noah was the only story for the "coincidence" sadly its not the bible and its miracles are based off Mesopotamia, Assyria, Egypt, Ethiopia, Greece and Roman mythologies and deities combined into one in the form of Monotheism The belief that a singular God did all of these things instead of the original polytheistic beliefs. It was created by Constantine in the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D...
@@thearamis the sooner people accept the truth instead of denying it or saying "The devil went back in time and changed history so that bible believers can have doubts" I mean i've read so many crazy dumb excuses so that people can continue worshipping the NEWEST God created
Well the story in our Hindu scriptures also. These types of disasters happens during end of a cycle of ages. And yes you are right about some things about the Bible but stories are so common with the stories of our scriptures . I mean it's a vast topic to make you understand . Maybe I LL comment later. But believe me those are not made up stories . I mean some texts are obviously interpreted to make people serve who so ever is in power but there's so much truth in them . I can tell because of two things first teachings of Jesus some things he taught and said in a very unique way only a religious person who have a perception of God can understand and in no way those can be made up things or copied. It doesn't matter which religion he/she is from . So which clears the doubt that Jesus was not a myth like some fools say . They are undoubtedly fools or maybe just attacking the culture or whatever . It's just politics which I don't care about Well I LL write later if you interested . Well just speaking my mind and intellect no offence to anyone.
Since the flood story is found in quite similar versions in very old stories all over the world, maybe it tells us that a great flood with a few survivors in a boat once did happen.
I think what it probably tells us is that flooding is something many ancient cultures experienced and had anxiety towards, rather than preserving an actual global flood :) But, I could be wrong!
@@DigitalHammurabi The stories include that the flood happened because of too much evil among men, and some of them include bringing animals in the boat to save them, etc :-)
@@sandrapihlskott3262 Sure :) as I say in this video, these similarities can generally be explained as cultural contact between the peoples who produced the different traditions, or as pure common sense. If a culture knows of boats and how to use them, and recognizes the importance of animals, why wouldn't they produce a literary composition that includes 'saving' things necessary for human survival - up to and included animals?
This video presupposes Moses barrowed from the Epoch of Gilgamesh because of similarities in both, but I wonder if it is part of a bigger reality. There are ancient accounts of a global flood from over 500 cultures around the world. What if these accounts indicate a common history of the same event? There are many articles and books on the subject. One good one is "Flood Legends: Global Clues of a Common Event", by Charles Martin.
The thing is that Moses never existed, the story was not even written by a single person and all the clues in the text(anachronism and geographic data) show that the story was written in the 7th century BCE
However, it's presented to readers (of the bible) as original material, inspired by Yahweh himself, particularly the OT or Hebrew Scriptures. The very first scribes may have had an oral tradition as they too had roots in the Middle East, (Ur according the scripture), so they inherited those stories. Years later, in the creation of a nation pledged to new leadership and allegiances, they drew upon something "established," just as today's Christians celebrate holidays that have their foundation in earlier traditions. It's like usurping a throne and having the king's seal in your custody. It sort of gives authority to claims, rather than being an "upstart" with no roots. If you read the Quran, you'll fine many biblical stories, yet the book is said to be wholly inspired by Allah to one man, who then had it written for his followers.
Exactly. She is positioning a remake that happens to have a different plot focus like its still its own original and calling it "intertextuality". Its still part of the Star Trek universe...just a different series. But whatever
None of the "gods", including the Jewish and Christian god, are real! They are all just made up so that those god hawkers, like priests, preachers, etc, can use your gullibility to manipulate and control you!
dont be jealous reed History Ancient Sumarian first civilization in world we teach you and all world and am pride reed apout - Sumerian and Mesopotamian and babylon you will see how we teach you the BEGINNING heer from my contry iraq you told as we dont teach you Are you kidding me the god chosen as for that all people should see gret civilization iraq dont be jealous all people They know apout that am very pride first civilization in world in iraq
ln Genesis God Pharoah was in human form , he didn't create the Universe, he created a map if it . And name light " day " and the darkness he called "night" , he was naming things he saw in the Sky. Then he allows the animals to reproduce. Then later on he says he will make humans in his "own image in his own likeness" , he had many children and grandchildren and one of then later on became Cain's wife. (Because we see in the Bible later on that when Cain left after killing his brother , he went to the land of Nod , meet his wife there, because there were a lot of people of the earth at that time and some were living in the land of Nod ) Then God Pharoah planted a garden, and put the man Adam in the garden which is called the Garden of Eden which is in Egypt ( There are RUclips videos that prove this) . Then later on God Pharoah gave Adam a wife, and according to the Bible Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters , the first two being Cain snd Abel. Then generations later after a flood that didn't flood the entire earth, Noah built an alter to the Lord Pharoah and Pharoah like the smell of the burnt offerings. Then we see the sons of Ham were from Egypt and other countries and are the ancestors of Noah- Genesis 10:6 . Then the Bible says Abraham moved to Egypt -Genesis Chapter 12. Clearly the God Pharaoh had died, as their is now a new Pharaoh in Egypt when Abraham went there.
here it is.. luckily I copied it! A COMPARATIVE STUDY OF THE FLOOD ACCOUNTS IN THE GILGAMESH EPIC AND GENESIS (siding with Biblical accounts of the flood) answersingenesis.org/the-flood/flood-legends/flood-gilgamesh-epic/
yas am proud its first civilization in world wat you told nothing to do wat am mean first civilization in world tech you eavry thing in my contry iraq you must hapy for that we teach you
dont be jealous reed History Ancient Sumarian first civilization in world we teach you and all world and am pride reed apout - Sumerian and Mesopotamian and babylon you will see how we teach you the BEGINNING heer from my contry iraq you told as we dont teach you Are you kidding me the god chosen as for that all people should see gret civilization iraq dont be jealous all people They know apout that am very pride first civilization in world in iraq
@@liyo4950 and how could you prove that? what evidence do you have that says ‘every single story, every incident, situation, and inspired writing, that makes mention of any kind of angel or god is real’?
Is Megan a christian ? That would explain the intertextuality, even Hindu epics have a flood myth with Vishnu saving human kind. The Mesopotomian stories all acknowledge polytheism, OT which is later adaptation just takes teh story and claims it was all done by Yahweh and obfuscates and delegitimizes the older story. Which christian is willing ot claim Noah's flood is adapted from Sumerian myths ? In all the examples, the robin hoods and jane austern derivatives all acknowledge they are based on older sources, Bible doesnt do that, it claims all is from Yahweh, that is the big difference, can't call that intertexuality as bible does not acknowledge its intertextuality. Point is bible story is not original but is an adaptation or plagiarism of sumerian creation stories.
சமூக ஆர்வலர் I am a Christian, and wholeheartedly acknowledge that the Biblical flood is lifted right out of Mesopotamian mythology. I don’t know why a text has to acknowledge intersexuality for it to be that and not plagiarism, all I am doing is presenting the academic view of that relationship. If you can give me a reference to an academic argument that says this is plagiarism, I’d be most interested to read it!
@@DigitalHammurabi Atrahasis and Gigamesh are not much different compared to Genesis where it is part of larger corpus of stories about Yahweh. If it is lifted out why is it not plagiarism, I dont' know if "all" academicians unanimously arrive at a consensus on anything. Intertextuality just emphasizes the relationship between stories, clearly the genesis accounts are later yet completely recrafted for Yahweh in the context of Israelite nation, maybe Israelites 3000 years back believed they originated in sumeria, yet when yahweh cult reared its head, the author of genesis felt compelled to recraft teh sumerian myths for yahweh cult and it stayed that way. The Genesis story is not taken the same way as Robinhood movie by the contemporary audience. People shout plagiarism only because theologians claim that it is true word of God. Maybe if plagiarism is a heavy word with bad connotation, adaptation is good enough. Bible is a religious text, how academics feel about it does not affect how it is viewed by Jewish and christian theologians. All that needs to be acknowledged is that there were many such narratives about floods, bible was close to the sumerian one.
@@CuriousAlien they used the symbolism and mythology of their culture to tell a story about the creation of the world and human beings and the relationship between the creator and creation in that context. Since they were monotheists they told a monotheistic story about creation as opposed to the polytheistic versions.
Only problem is you just claim in between lines there is any prove for copying. Never keeping in mind that both texts might have derived from actual events which is far more logical. Another thing is why would someone copy something but make drastic changes that do not seem to add anything interesting about it. You made great points but just assuming it has been copied is an absolute flaw and obviously mistaken.
I think you missed the most obvious argument. That is historical events are not intellectual property they are simply facts. You'll find many similarities between interpretations and recountings of the french revolution but none of them are plagiarism because nobody owns the french revolution.
You could have worded that bit after 6:00 as "the Biblical account presents a schizophrenic deity in need of an anger-management class" - as happens when you collapse the bickering between the Gods into a single one.
@@jamiee7367 His challenge video to Jason Burns(a crazy apologist) mentions the same statement with the same sentiment. He is probably serious. Anyway he used it as a jab in that video too.
I'm assuming you know as much about science as you do the Bible. ruclips.net/video/Swz8rIcCu_M/видео.html So here's a 2 min clip of scientist of the year and professor of: computer science, material science, bio chemistry, nano tech, currently at Rice with over 600 published works, over 100 patents in nano tech, 8 companies started from the medical field to the oil field. James Tour gets up at 3:00 every morning so he can spend two hours reading his Bible, for the last 30 years. Why? Because Huso ever believeth shall not parish, but have everlasting life.
@@chrishughens3266 Here you are using arguments from authority. You have not checked the claims made by James Tour yourself, you are piggy backing on his talks given to non-scientific audiences, on his religious views.
@@floptaxie68 not accurate on old things n they fudge it . See articles on evolution flaws n Eldridge Niles also questioning own methods in 70 s science journal
Your argument for 'intertextuality' as opposed to 'plagiarism' is totally unconvincing imho. To me this is a clear sign of plagiarism whereupon the same narrative is retold as an original one by 'dressing' the story in a 'monotheitic' tone. What matters here is that the narrative is essentially the same.
@@lookatmepleasesir The Oxford dictionary defines plagiarism as "the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.". That's precisely what happened here. And if that's what happening with mythology than that's plagiarism too! Simple!
@@nisachannel7077 you're projecting a modern concept onto the past, and assuming that the biblical authors were trying to pass off someone else's ideas as their own, when it would have been well known that other versions of the same story pre-existed their own
@@lookatmepleasesir I'm not sure about the 'other versions of the same story'. AFAIK, there's only the Sumerian version that the biblical authors 'ripped off'. But regardless of the number of previous versions, the fundamental issue I have is that in the western world the ONLY version that is popularized is the biblical one told like if it were original with no mention anywhere by anyone that it isn't in any way shape or form original!
@@nisachannel7077 all canaanite religion, not just israelite religion, originates from mesopotamian religion. There is an assyrian version of the flood myth, which is mesopotamian but not sumerian - assyria was upper mesopotamian, and semitic like the jews and caananites, the sumerians were lower mesopotamians and not semitic, but did originate in upper mesopotamia which is where, if I'm not mistaken, the flood story of gilgamesh and enuma elish takes place. The sumerian stories would have been oral traditions before they were written down. There is also an iranian version of the flood myth, which is neither semitic or sumerian, but is upper mesopotamian. Were the iranians plagiarists as well? And were the zoroastrians plagiarists of the iranian polytheists because they have the same myth, or did they just inherit the same mythological tradition? The epic of gilgamesh itself, is taken from the earlier enuma elish - is it plagiarism too? Were the canaanites and israelites plagiarists because their gods, including El, originate from the earlier ugaritic civilisation, or did they just inherit a cultural tradition / transmission/ diffusion?
yas am proud its first civilization in world wat you told nothing to do wat am mean first civilization in world tech you eavry thing in my contry iraq you must hapy for that we teach you
So the most important message is that the Bible is a copy of earlier texts, not historical, just a bunch of fables. Okay, perhaps not plagiarism, but still not a description of real events. I say this because many people think this book is a historical record. I guess that's just assumed to be false in this video.
Pretty much, yes. Most academic study of this material will assume that they're a collection of literary compositions, rather than an historical record of fact.
But we do have good evidence that some of the events in the bible were real, such as the resurrection and the flood itself, Inspiredphilosphy's I think does a good job in compromising the evidence
@@maxten1237 I disagree wholeheartedly that we have "good evidence" for either of those things :) But, I am neither a geologists nor a Roman history specialist, so I could be wrong.
@@DigitalHammurabi Hi there, well if you check InspiringPhilosopy, he does convey really good evidence for why the Flood could of been a possibility in those times, and wow, really happy that you responded. And the same goes for the Resurrection, with multiple books and studies concluded that Jesus Christ was a very likely possibility of being resurrected, analysing the Traditions of the Romans, Eye witness accounts, archeology land sites and so on.
@@maxten1237 we do have. But the bible verison is false and plagiarit the bible flood happened couple thousand years ago. The real flood happened somwhere 12000 years 14000 years ago. Somwhere around there. (Younger Dyras cataclysm Event) (Ice Age) The sumerians talk about it. The sumerian also left the king list a record spanning 200,000 years of ruling kings!! And obviously. The Annuanki. There also many underwater ruins. For example. In Peru. Puma Punku and Tiwanaku ruins were found depoisted buried at a level that dates them 12000 to 15000 years ago. In nearby Lake Titicaca lies a submerged ruined city. Again. 12000 old years at least at those levels. Dwarka is another site in india.
Intertextuality , you are all too easily persuaded by a weak interpretation of copying. Most people could not read at the time so the flood of Noah would never have been connected to Gilgamesh by the general citizens. There are many other identical stories like Adam and Eve, the virgin birth, the resurrection ........the Bible stories were very obviously copied by people who could read and write and they knew they would not be exposed if they used the same stories for their new religious beliefs in Yahweh.
Mesopotamia and the Bible - Intertextuality, or Plagiarism? Yes and yes. Bible is both plagiarism, and intertextuality. I don't even know what intertextuality is. But, it sounds just about right... Just joking. great video, saw u guys in tell tale's channel the other day.
It is probably just a word they made up to use to hide the fact that it was actually plagiarism...since plagiarism is such a bad word! It's just another way of continuing the deception that all religions use to manipulate and control all the gullible goobers who believe in such nonsense instead of logic, reason, and science!
So more like fan fiction? The biggest out seems to be technical, in that we have no named author who has been wronged.
If all texts were produced over a few years in this modern day, there would most definitely be plagiarism. What I think the real difference is, is that these stories are the collecting, adapting and recording of older legendary stories, so are really in the wrong category to have the term plagiarism applied. The writing just happens to have happened a long time ago.
The one thing we do know, is that the bible texts were not original, and are the result of the authors and editors absorbing the cultures around them.
Thats right, its 1 story about the creation of man. It's all allegory, and metaphor.
"The one thing we do know, is that the bible texts were not original, and are the result of the authors and editors absorbing the cultures around them." The cultures around them were part of the same broader cultural context they belonged to. So they were not absorbing other cultures, so much as it was their own culture
@@lookatmepleasesir The important thing is that both stories were most likely just legends.
@@DanyAI92 I agree, but it doesn't mean they have no value, or no truth to them. Interpreting them as strictly historically accurate accounts, or rejecting them as worthless for not being historically accurate accounts, is missing the point. The ancients didn't really have our modern concept of truth when it came to stuff like this. It was more a matter of whether these stories had a moral or a meaning which is true. In terms of historical accuracy they just had more or less a best guess - the learned men have received this story passed down from the ancestors.
If the jews adopted some of the early biblical stories from the babylonians during their exile, it would be because that is what the most learned men in the society they lived in said about what happened in the past. But then it when it came to the religious elements of the stories, they did not share the same religious beliefs as the babylonians, so they adapted them according to their own religious beliefs. The rest though was considered valuable pieces of knoweldge, so they utilised those parts.
@@lookatmepleasesir Yeah, I agree with you. I don’t mean to say that those stories are “worthless” at all. I even consider them to be fun and interesting. I’m simply against those people who want others to believe that everything mentioned in it historically happened and to accept it as the “Word of God,” that’s all.
I am so glad we live in a time where we have easy access to information at a fingertip or click. I am convinced that most, if not all religions cannot and likely will not survive in the internet age where we can easily learn what's in the Bible, Quran, Hadith, Torah, Talmud etc and expose it. Priests, pastors, imams, sheiks, rabbi's etc are no longer able to keep their followers in the dark and scam them as easily.
Learning about the intertextuality has been mind blowing. Now it all makes sense. I always wondered why stories were so familiar and as with the bible, we've never known who the authors of most books were. This lets us understand why. Thanks so much!
I'd never appreciated the significance of the Enlil/Enki vs Yahweh/Yahweh split between the two accounts before. Fascinating, and nicely presented as ever.
Ziusudra(from Atrahasis) became Noah in Genesis. That is how the near east was. Everything was adapted to bolster the israelite national identity and origin myth.
ruclips.net/video/Mx7T1ri8eXo/видео.html much better lecture here CC
You think Christian apologists care about those pesky facts?
🤦🏻♂️ satanist trying to explain the Bible. Classic nonsense
.
The problem arises when the stories are claimed to be true actual events.
Which, of course, Christians do claim that these ridiculous accounts are true actual events!
Megan's voice is so soothing and ASMR.
So the flood story in the old testament is basically the Robin Hood men in tights version of the Sumerian epic?
Actually, it seems to me to be exactly the other way around, with Enki in the role of Robin. There's no tricky opponent in the OT version.
It's also in Hindu scriptures but names are different .
Story is pretty much the same.
Natural disasters happens during end of a cycle of ages.
You have Adam and Eve .
We have Adam and hawyavati but they are not first humans . They are the starters of few cultures cc to our scriptures. There story is pretty much very similar if someone actually read it lol.
Theres not major diff between religions .
Although they may seem diff from outside but they actually are not.
You have Lucifer but we have Kalki purush except hes a demon from lower realms . hellish realms will be full and overcrowded like earth LL be .And yes God LL come to earth on a white horse and many mystics LL accompany him and he LL slain in millions .
First he LL kill all kings who are thieves and then thieves who dare dress as kings .
And LL restore natural order of things .
Then a new cycle LL start.
There are many prophecies related to this age in which all have come true till now although others seems unthinkable but maybe they LL also come true when the time comes .
And I think bible mentions that 4000 years age of humans but I think it mentions the start of this age because that exact time was when this dark age started on earth.
I have been reading all religious scriptures from the world and ancient texts for a while now and they all are so much similar that you have no idea but not a single one is copied this I can say.
I think some powers want the people to be divided by inflating their egos .
Really enjoyed the clarity of the explanations and am looking forward to the entire series...
_I choose to assume that the absence of a citation for "world's worst mullet" was an oversight during post-production._
We should ask, "how do you know"?
Good video. I think people who say its plagiarism are usually trying to point out that its based on an earlier story so its not likely to documents history. It's not plagiarism its fan fiction.
I agree, I think people who say it is plagiarized are trying to point out to fundy literalists Christians that the story is not 100% original, and the bibles version is based on earlier versions, versions that are not of the same religion and culture, but rather versions that pre-existed the biblical text and came from a different religion and culture. Because many fundy Christians believe it is completely original to the bible and the story didn't come from anywhere else to any degree. In fact they think the other versions were borrowed or taken from the bibles version.
@@jinxy72able It's also in Hindu scriptures but names are different .
Story is pretty much the same.
Natural disasters happens during end of a cycle of ages.
You have Adam and Eve .
We have Adam and hawyavati but they are not first humans . They are the starters of few cultures cc to our scriptures. There story is pretty much very similar if someone actually read it lol.
Theres not major diff between religions .
Although they may seem diff from outside but they actually are not.
You have Lucifer but we have Kalki purush except hes a demon from lower realms . hellish realms will be full and overcrowded like earth LL be .And yes God LL come to earth on a white horse and many mystics LL accompany him and he LL slain in millions .
First he LL kill all kings who are thieves and then thieves who dare dress as kings .
And LL restore natural order of things .
Then a new cycle LL start.
There are many prophecies related to this age in which all have come true till now although others seems unthinkable but maybe they LL also come true when the time comes .
@@miller0079 And such cyclical narrative is also present in Norse mythology, in which their escatology, Ragnarok, is also a cosmology since it ends with their Adam and Eve beginning the next cycle instead of a perfect paradise and the end of time, which means we arguably live not in the age of the gods, but in the aftermath of Ragnarok in the age of Nidhogg.
good point. i am guilty of calling it plagiarism, but watching this video gave me the common sense, which i should've had in the first place, to not call it plagiarism, but rather just stories that were word of mouth and written handed down throughout the Mediterranean, so hence, the bible. "fan fiction", i like how you put that. thanks.
it's the report of an actual event, the survivors of the flood repopulated the earth and took the story with them
This is the first video I am watching on this channel. I've enjoyed seeing Dr. Bowen on AXP with Matt Dillahunty. I'm now subscribed and looking forward to notifications. A couple minutes in and I have to say these look to be of good quality and informative, thanks.
You're so welcome! I'm glad you're enjoying the channel so far :)
I put this in the live chat, but after the video ended, so it didn’t save:
I find it interesting that, for the biblical flood story, the raven (8:7) comes from the P source, & the dove (8:8-12) comes from the J source, since the Gilgamesh version has both the dove _and_ raven, plus a swallow. It’s interesting that the birds in the fully redacted version of Noah’s flood is more similar to Gilgamesh than its component texts.
Presumably (this is a bit speculative on my part) what would’ve happened is that, when the Mesopotamian flood myth entered into Israel, the Israelite storytellers simplified the birds, condensing them into 1 bird, but different tellers simplified it differently. Some might’ve had 1 dove, or 1 raven, or 1 swallow, etc. So presumably J preferred the dove simplification, & P preferred the raven, & both simplifications got combined in redaction (ironically undoing the simplification).
@Carlos Alberto Cristobal Not exactly? I'm looking more to Neo-Documentary scholarship rather than the Classical Documentary Hypothesis. The Neo-Documentary Hypothesis, though subscribing to the same basic 4 sources of the classical hypothesis, is very critical of Wellhausen's methodologies.
They did the same thing with the number of days and nights it rained! I think that it was 7 days and nights for the Utnapishtim version and the Jews upped that to 40 days and nights!
It kinda makes sense that the Jewish Priests, who plagiarized from the Utnapishtim flood story, would shorten the name to a four letter word flood story!
What the problem is, is that many fundy Christians think that because there are flood myths all over the world, then that means the biblical story of the flood is true. They don't seem to take into account that many of these other versions pre-existed the biblical story, and came from other religions. And they don't take into account that the differences in the story show they are not consistent with one another, and therefore cannot be used to say that "because these other versions exist that means the bibles story is true".
It is difficult to get through to them that even though the bible story was not plagiarized, certain elements in the story and the over all general concept were. That the story is not 100% original to the bible.
If you tell fundamentalists it was plagiarized they point out the differences in the story.
But they do not consider those differences when they try to claim that "because other flood myths exist, then that means the bibles story is true".
So I think when atheists say it was plagiarized they are just trying to make the point that the bibles version is based on the other versions that came before it, and borrowed certain elements from those versions.
Most people (unless they are scholars) do not know what Intertextuality is, or means. Most people just speak about these things colloquially and so the only word that most people know colloquially is plagiarism. So that is the word that is used even though it is technically wrong. I think if we used the word Intertextuality no one would know what was meant by that. And the fundamentalists would see that as the bibles version is 100% original and nothing was based on or borrowed from the other versions. So I think the word plagiarism is used to sort of make it a hard hitting point that this story is not 100% original to the bible. That it in fact has earlier sources, that it in part was borrowed from, or based upon.
It should be noted that almost all of the oldest civilizations originated near large bodies of water for. It makes sense for food and drinking water, but the trade off was dealing with floods. So it makes sense that they would have some myth about floods.
The standard apologetics response is that the Gilgamesh account predates Genesis 6. However the differences in the accounts are caused by the tower of babel incident, hence civilizations have different versions of the same flood story.
However it assumes that a flood like that _actually_ happened, which is a wrong assumption. This is indicated by the non existent geological evidence for any worldwide flood in the 3rd or 4th millennium BCE(and even earlier). Hence the apologetics response is wrong.
It is not surprising that copying and adapting of origin stories of gods, nations and myths(heroes, floods, etc.) to ones own culture was commonplace. No copyright laws existed then. Or at least there was no one to enforce them(if there were copyright laws at all).
@Waxoff Waxon Tenochtitlan(founded 1325 CE) was untouched by any middle eastern influence. Taxila(1000 BCE) is even older than some Iraq's ancient cities. They was constructed without any plans imported from Iraq. So Iraq can only be seen as a model for the middle east. It is very specific.
Ur was founded near 900 BCE. It is a late city. Jewish history refers to incidents more to the times of region of Canaan, which is the origin of Israel. This even more ancient. And jewish history is a composite of people of Canaan region. Abraham as a real person vs. Abraham as an invented patriarchal figure as the Father of the Jewish identity is a big scholarly dispute. That is down sometimes to one's opinions more than evidence for existence of Abraham as a real person.
Well the story in our Hindu scriptures also.
These types of disasters happens during end of a cycle of ages. And yes you are right about some things about the Bible but stories are so common with the stories of our scriptures .
I mean it's a vast topic to make you understand .
Maybe I LL comment later.
But believe me those are not made up stories .
I mean some texts are obviously interpreted to make people serve who so ever is in power but there's so much truth in them .
I can tell because of two things first teachings of Jesus some things he taught and said in a very unique way only a religious person who have a perception of God can understand and in no way those can be made up things .
It doesn't matter which religion he/she is from .
So which clears the doubt that Jesus was not a myth like some fools say . They are undoubtedly fools or maybe just attacking the culture or whatever . It's just politics which I don't care about
Well I LL write later if you interested .
The Epic of Gilgamesh, which preceded even the existence of the Jews by maybe 1,000 years, was written by Mesopotamians who believed in a number of different gods...one of them was called EA. And, it was EA who told Utnampishtim to build a giant Ark( boat) and to take aboard 2 of every kind of animal because EA was going to make it rain for 7 days and 7 nights so that the whole earth would be covered. Utnapishtim let go several kinds of birds to test for dry land. The boat came to rest on a mountain top (but it wasn't called Mt. Ararat)! But, there was more to the story, which preceded the flood story, about the King Gilgamesh and his adventures...where he met a wild man who he "wrestled" with. There was also a hit of homosexuality! Then later, the goddess Isis came down and tried to tempt Gilgamesh sexually, but the wild man got jealous and killed Isis. Later, the two ran into a giant who killed and ate people and who lived in the cedar forest (Lebanon?). The two killed him, I think! So, you see, the origins of the Noah's Ark story is steeped in ridiculous fairy tail nonsense! There is absolutely No evidence that the earth was ever flooded! And most of those "universal" flood stories were all from peoples who lived in flood prone areas near rivers...just like the Mesopotamians did in the area of between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.
Excellent analysis
So basically the bible is an ancient meme compilation, hmmm.
:D that is an excellent way of looking at it!
Lol :D Best comment found.
Maybe not plagiarism, but definitely evidence against the literal truth of the biblical event.
To be fair, just reading the biblical account and paying attention to the structure indicates that while it probably relies on an actual event, the narrative is interpreting that event by use of poetic structure, legendary motifs, and mythic elements. I'll admit that I didn't notice that in English, but in Hebrew the poetic, legendary, and mythic aspects are hard to miss, especially when you chart it out (as Hebrew students only in their third year of study are wont to do).
Prove the other versions came before bible.
@@Charles-tv6oi prove they didn’t
@@inspiredaction162 all guessing
@@inspiredaction162 however,. Many vids show pagans latter copied biblical practices. See zeitgeist debunked. Lotta history, even from the pagan religious leaders Christ etc were accused of copying. They deny claims n say they came latter. Investigators show they came sum 300 yrs after Christ or so . Sometimes less time
Pretty cool how the legends of the ancients still echo into the present day! They would be amused to see how we have used their stories!
I can't thank you enough for teaching us about intertextuality. Also, in the earlier versions of the flood story, the hero didn't plant a vineyard, grow grapes, make wine, and get stone drunk! Who needs foodgrains when you can make wine, eh? I guess that supports the argument for the story being intertextual in origin? They need to coin a term "pseudo -plagiarism! 😂😂😂
@Digital Hammurabi
Very well organized and explained Megan Lewis!
It is plausible that instead of either intertextuality or plagiarism, considering that other examples of this and other spiritual narratives exist in cultures separated by geography and time and ability to cross oceans away from Mesopotamia, and in fact all Asia, are possibly more easily attributed to human nature (God makers) than textual familiarity. Even in the theory of Pangea is described early travel away from the central origin of homosapien sapien that language in this detail could not have existed. Which is not to say I personally believe either explanation. Great video and I look forward to more content of the same genre.
How would John suppose to know what was happening in Iraq? He wrote down all the things that happended in Israel
I don't think it was plaigarism, just that these stories evolved as different cultures inter mingled with each other
And now we got stupid, brainwashed, delusional, hypocrite, and toxic cult/religion about these books.
Some say there are things never written and done that way on purpose . I guess it would be a great way to avoid plagiarism John 21:25 Take care and and good luck with the studies.
This has been a very very educating experience. Thanks a lot.
"...in the world's worst mullet." Added just the edge it needed. Ha! Always fun and imformative here!
You read these so beautifully
thank you soo much for this video!! I've seen so many that genuinely accuse the bible of plagiarism that before watching it I wrote a whole paragraph trying to explain cultural exchange and religion but you already explained it much better than i could!! I'm glad this video exists
Those who wrote the Bible (Old and New Testaments) did plagiarize their stories from the many other countries that conquered, or had contact with, Judea. Mesopotamia, Persia, Egypt, Greece, and Roman Empire were other countries who heavily influenced Judaism and Christianity! Simply calling Plagiarism by a different name doesn't change the fact that those who created the stories in the Bible obviously got the ideas from those more ancient, superstitious, goobers who just made stuff up because they didn't know the real answers! The Epic of Gilgamesh flood story is so obviously a precursor of the Noah's flood story! And so it is with some other Biblical stories...plagiarized from other, more ancient, religions. The Jesus story is an example. Born of a virgin, had 3 kings bearing gifts and guided by a star in the east to attend the birth of the "savior", having 12 disciples, healing the sick, making the blind see again, casting demons out of possessed people, dying on a cross (or similar: a tree in the same fashion*), arising again in 3 days, ascending to the heavens, and people believed that the "savior" would come back to earth some day!...All those things were plagiarized from more ancient religions way before that fictitious Jesus character was created by plagiarizing Christian Priests!
Excellent video and channel. I've started to look into Ancient Near Eastern myths and motifs and the intertextuality between them and the Old Testament and just wanted to get some feedback/thoughts on a couple things:
1. Fall of Man/Denial of Immortality - What do you guys think about the "Adapa and the South Wind" myth being a source tradition for the Fall of Man narrative in Genesis to explain why man was denied immortality? Apart from the similarity in name (Adam/Adapa), the Mesopotamian myth seems to suggest that Adapa (man), who was endowed with great wisdom and intelligence by god (Ea), is not immortal because he refused the food of life (immortality) from Anu (god) at Ea's (god's) instruction. Therefore, man is fated to remain mortal because of his obedience to Ea (god) in refusing the food of life. The Old Testament flips this narrative on its head and suggests that Adam (man), who was not endowed with intelligence or wisdom by god, is fated to remain mortal because of his disobedience to god and is therefore denied the tree of life.
2. God Resting on 7th Day - We all know that in Genesis, after 6 days of creation god rests on the seventh day. Is it reasonable to see parallels between this and the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh , where god (Enlil) brings the flood to destroy humanity because they were too noisy and disturbed his rest? In the Epic of Gilgamesh the flood raged for 6 days and on the 7th day the sea calmed and all day long there was quiet (the gods are now able to rest as all of humanity is destroyed). So in the Old Testament, god rests after 6 days of creation but in the Epic of Gilgamesh, god (Enlil) is able to rest after 6 days of destruction (since the humans who were disturbing his rest are now destroyed).
I have two more questions but I'll stick with these 2 for now. Any feedback/thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
Yep - Isn't plagiarize a neat word to describe theft.
Nice birds. Great video!
The immoral and criminal aspect of The Noah's Ark story lies in the author's presentation of the story as being historical. That is an intent to deceive the reader.
You two are doing brilliant work. Even a moron like me can get it, Finally. Thank you for your work.
She forgot to mention that the earliest copy of the epic of Gilgamesh dates to 700 years after the writings of the Torah
@@treydevercelly7518 citation please?
@@treydevercelly7518
Citation needed?
@@treydevercelly7518 That's not only untrue but it is really lame!!! LOL!!! The Epic of Gilgamesh was written way before the Jews even existed.
The six days of creation, the creation of Adam, the flood, Moses and the exodus are all plagiarisms of earlier Mesopotamian, Ugaritic and ancient Egyptian texts.
When people plagiarize, they take an existing story then change some of its components around according to your new world views. However, the similarities are undeniable. The Israelites created a tradition based on other people’s myths and heritage.
Besides, the stories themselves are scientific and historical myths. Therefore to have any core similarities between Biblical stories and earlier stories that are nothing but myths and legends tells you a lot about the Bible’s credibility.
So we can deduce that since gilgamesh came first then the character of Noah never existed and if the flood happened it was gilgamesh and his gods that cause it
It's better to deduce that none of it ever happened and was just made up!
Thank you for making it clear. Is there examples of plagiarism in the bible ? or is it just intertextuality ?.
I don't think the argument could be made for plagiarism in the Bible, mainly because it's just not how literature worked in the ancient world. That being said, I've also not found any examples that could be classified as "plagiarism" in the modern sense.
@@DigitalHammurabi makes sense and could that just be any culture in its evolution building off the old to make it more relevant or improve its ideology?. it would be interesting to see how religious thought and practice grow with technology.
.
I get the point the video is making. However, what is not covered is why would the authors of genesis repurpose the story of the flood in the first place? Or to put it another way: why did they not come up with a unique story to illustrate the point they were trying to make? By the way, I really enjoy this channel; I find it not only interesting but also highly entertaining. :-)
I don't have a solid answer for you, but if I had to suggest something then it would be that by co-opting existing literature and replacing all gods with YHWH they were attempting to demonstrate YHWH's superiority over all over supernatural beings :) Creating something new may not have had the same "ours is better than yours" message.
@@DigitalHammurabi Thank you for your reply :-)
"Or to put it another way: why did they not come up with a unique story to illustrate the point they were trying to make?" probably because they revered the motifs and acknowledged there was some truth to the other versions of the story.
Intertextuality is just a fancy word for plagiarism.
Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video 🤣
Or I just need to do a better job at explaining it
🤔
@@DigitalHammurabi
Definitely didn't watch.
Mesopotamia and the Bible - Intertextuality, or Plagiarism?
Yes and yes.
Bible is both plagiarism, and intertextuality.
I don't even know what intertextuality is. But, it sounds just about right...
Just joking. great video, saw u guys in tell tale's channel the other day.
African or European swallow?
More like taking a story's basic outline and remaking the details. I've touched on this more than once in my own vids. Many of the Hebrew stories are remakes of earlier ones. The great flood myth is practically identical in outline of ancient Sumerian fable. But you can find the story of creation and different versions of the serpent in African fable as well as Asian. You just can't get the fundamentalist to get past that--because they don't belong to a church, they belong to a cult. Regular Christians have some sort of reason--usually. Creationists don't. They are proven not only wrong by all genres of science but historical writings as well and they still don't get it. Because the fundamentalists are cult members. Plain and simple.
Now this explains why the supposedly "omniscient" God would conduct largest genocide in history and regretting for it afterwards. It was originally conducted by two different gods!
I think this is an interesting discussion because the books of the Bible were written at a time when Blagarism had not yet been invented and cultures spread through human interaction. That's why researchers instead talk about borrowing and common cultural material, while Balgiarism means stealing and exploiting a work protected by law. And although "borrowing" is a more lame and less sensational word than "plagiarism" or "stealing", I still favor the terminology used by researchers because it is more neutral.
I buy it, but I'm left wandering
I mean, we know about
"thou shalt not have any other Gods before me" & that the Bible refs other Gods.
But dose the Bible say that no other Gods exist, Or where specifically it says other Gods are false?
Thanks... if this even registers.
Yes the bible says the other Gods are fake.
In my opinion, we are trying to apply modern concepts to ancient culture, and get contradictions that are not relevant to the discussion. The ancient authors were not attempting to write either reality based documents or commercial entertainment, but sacred texts for the use of priests in organized religions. These modern concepts, plagiarism and intertextuality, would mean nothing to ancient scribes, much as the idea of fact checking or the scientific method. If it served their purposes, “borrowing” anything from earlier and surrounding cultures was fine, if it made the ideas easier to pass off in the current circumstances.
They did it in ancient times for the same reason they did when they wrote the bible (old and new testaments)....so that the Kings or the Priests could control and manipulate all of the gullible goobers too stupid to know better!
My right ear is enjoying this video more than my left👀
wrong, wrong, wrong.
Billy Ray Cyrus had the world's worst mullet.
Agreed that they're both bad. Though you'd need to go back in time in Australia to the 1980s to see the absolute worst ones.
@@Luubelaar
those were indeed, dark days.
Which came first the chicken or the egg?
Is there any chance that the writers of the Noah flood story heard the Gilgamesh flood story and just assumed that it had to be YHWH who did it? I'm saying did the writers of Noah believe the Gilgamesh Tales to be true? I know neither of you are psychic or possessing of any Supernatural ability that would make it so you could definitely tell me the mindset of people 2500 years in their graves, just wondering if you have an opinion?
I don't think they're assuming to know their mindset(s), but rather noting patterns. In the ancient Americas, for example, there were different cultures who shared core beliefs. A serpent deity was revered by all of them, but each had a different name for that god. To the Mayas, that god was known as Kukulkan. To the Aztecs, Quetzecoatl. Before the those people existed, there was a serpent god known to the Olmecs. The Olmecs are considered "the mother culture" of Mesoamerica. Succeding tribes adapted their belief system and retained the core, but the details of the stories naturally changed over time. We see the same thing in the ANE region, and China. Successive cultures share common stories, but the details vary. Reasons for change are multitude. It could be intentional for religious and/or political motives, or simply a natural progression of oral tradition.
@@vladtepes9614 in Hindu scriptures that serpent God is sheshnagg and king of serpents is Vasuki .
They are diff dimensional beings that live beyond the realm of space and time and are unaffected by them.
Among them there is one being that has witnessed all .
@@miller0079 Or.....perhaps serpents are revered as gods because they're deadly. These deities are based off of things that live here on earth, so what make you think they're "outside of space and time"? It's just an anthropomorphization of nature.
think of the stories as philosophy, outlining mystical and metaphysical principles and doctrines via symbolism, with the different versions reflecting different philosophical positions
@@vladtepes9614 because nature was believed to be the creation and reflection of the spiritual world and spiritual forces. Serpents themselves were not revered as gods - gods were associated with serpents because of various things that serpents were considered to represent and symbolise, like wisdom and natural forces, the earth, the underworld, chaos, etc
So would you then agree, that the authors were not giving a factual account of nature, as some people would assert? Because if they were, why would the author of genesis change any aspects of the story at all.
it is plagiarism, when christians claim this is the word of god. why would god, need to borrow a story from a previous civilization?
Exactly
You completely overlook, or ignore, the fact that the biblical story is represented as the one true version by a huge percentage of Christians. Even some of the comments here try to suggest that the earlier versions were (somehow) based on the later biblical version. Debating whether this is a case of intertextuality or plagiarism is nothing more than a sad attempt to deflect from the fact that the biblical version of the story is BS.
Or, I really enjoy intertextuality on an academic level, and wanted to share my enthusiasm with RUclips.
Nah, your assessment definitely makes a whole lot more sense. Thanks so much for telling me why I do what I do! Always helpful.
you're overlooking or ignoring the fact that the biblical story wasn't written by christians
@@DigitalHammurabi I told you WHAT you did (deflected). WHY you did that is not my concern. If you need to ignore or twist the truth to placate your beliefs - that's between you and your conscience.
But that's not true because it states right in the Gilgamesh epic that the story was written by Gilgamesh himself. Who is placed on the Kings list. And gives historic legitimacy to his life.
Gilgamesh provides the dimensions and approximate material amount to a high degree of accuracy to build the coracle(boat) that was to "float" and last the flood. Genesis does not provide dimensions, instead it is used to include in the biblical cannon to add validity to the israelite national identity.
Gilgamesh is more practical.
Genesis is more interested in adapting the story to the israelite nation's origin myth.
Both are adapted for very different purposes.
Genesis does provide dimensions.
“Make yourself an ark of gopher wood, make rooms in the ark, and pitch it outside and inside with pitch. And this is how you will make it: 300 cubits the length of the ark, 50 cubits its width, and 30 cubits its height. You shall make a window in the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from the top, and you shall make the ark’s entrance in it’s side. You shall make lower, second, and third stories for it.” - Genesis 6:14-17
Atrahasis describes the ark as a coracle, Gilgamesh describes the ark as a cube, & Genesis describes the ark as a rectangular prism. (I agree, though, that the Coracle is probably the best of the 3.)
@@jamiee7367 I did not read the genesis passage though. Thanks for pointing my mistake out.
However I found the parallels between the flood accounts as quite striking:
Gilgamesh Tablet 11:
_"On the fifth day I set in place her exterior; it was an acre in area; its sides were ten gar high; ten gar also was the extent of its deck; I added a front-roof to it and closed it in. I built it in six stories, thus making seven floors in all; the interior of each I divided again into nine partitions. Beaks for water within I cut out. I selected a punting-pole and added all that was necessary. Three šar of pitch I smeared on its outside; three šar of asphalt I used for the inside (so as to make it water-tight). Three šar of oil the men carried, carrying it in vessels. One šar of oil I kept out and used it for sacrifices, while the other two šar the boatman stowed away. I slaughtered oxen; I killed lambs day by day. Jugs of beer, of oil, and of sweet wine, like river water (i.e., freely) I gave the workmen to make a feast like that of the New-Year’s Day. To the god Shamash my hands brought oil. The ship was completed. Launching it was heavy work, and I added tackling above and below, and after all was finished, the ship sank in the water to two thirds of its height."_
Even though this account is also fantastical like genesis 6, the measurements for the Gilgamesh boat are far more detailed and as demonstrated by calculations(after converting to modern units) the boat can actually be made.
Further more the static stability of a coracle is far superior to the cuboid arc of genesis. (cube is only slightly better, not as ,much as a coracle)
This shows that the writer of Gilgamesh was well versed in boat construction, and the genesis writers just were more interested in how to include it in their accounts rather than check its practicality of construction by 600 year olds plus few helpers in a matter of few years.
Here I am treating the Atrahasis and Gilgamesh accounts to be in the same boat(pun intended) as opposed to the Genesis Flood myth.
Acc to hindu scriptures he went to find immortality.
I am just reading and researching all religions and ancient texts and you guys LL be surprised how common they all are .
And I bet they are not copied from one another .
I think some powers want the people to be divided on basis of religion and all.
@@miller0079 India was along trade routes with the near east(now middle east) since thousands of years. Ancient indian scriptures have some parallels with middle eastern scriptures.
Later ones, like the upanishads and vedanta had more in common with greek philosophy. Atomism, souls, dualism and monism were kind of influenced by greek philosophy. This is all thanks to trade.
@@miller0079 Religions in the past had a lot of borrowing of ideas. Not like now where the idea of a religion with a unique and original story is accepted. Ancient religion is very different to modern religion. We cannot even imagine the fluidity of religious ideas of that time in our modern fixed religions.
To me, just because the Meso writings are older doesnt necessarily means the Bible writers took from it, thats a bold statement without any ways to confirm. One option could be that they have same origin, and the story of the same flood has been passed on from generations and locations, hence the differences in a similar story.
Aramis Alexander ok :)
Lmao denial at its best
@@trvpmusic2569 If this is a response to my comment, by its definition (the action of declaring something to be untrue), my statement isnt denial, and i started with 'to me' so this is only my opinion, then i gave a plausible option which is totally possible, refusing their could be any possibility to this option would then be denial on your part, which you and everyone is entitled to do so.
Cheers
@@thearamis and your opinion would be valid IF Noah was the only story for the "coincidence" sadly its not the bible and its miracles are based off Mesopotamia, Assyria, Egypt, Ethiopia, Greece and Roman mythologies and deities combined into one in the form of Monotheism The belief that a singular God did all of these things instead of the original polytheistic beliefs. It was created by Constantine in the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D...
@@thearamis the sooner people accept the truth instead of denying it or saying "The devil went back in time and changed history so that bible believers can have doubts" I mean i've read so many crazy dumb excuses so that people can continue worshipping the NEWEST God created
Someone will watch this video and be like "well that settles it Christianity is fake" 😂
Christianity is fake!
Well it certainly is another nail now isnt it
Well the story in our Hindu scriptures also.
These types of disasters happens during end of a cycle of ages. And yes you are right about some things about the Bible but stories are so common with the stories of our scriptures .
I mean it's a vast topic to make you understand .
Maybe I LL comment later.
But believe me those are not made up stories .
I mean some texts are obviously interpreted to make people serve who so ever is in power but there's so much truth in them .
I can tell because of two things first teachings of Jesus some things he taught and said in a very unique way only a religious person who have a perception of God can understand and in no way those can be made up things or copied.
It doesn't matter which religion he/she is from .
So which clears the doubt that Jesus was not a myth like some fools say . They are undoubtedly fools or maybe just attacking the culture or whatever . It's just politics which I don't care about
Well I LL write later if you interested .
Well just speaking my mind and intellect no offence to anyone.
Books don't plagiarize. People do! XP
if the flood story was the only theft, it might slide. The list of direct rip offs makes divine authorship a laughable proposition.
I don't think I ever argued for divine authorship of...well, anything.
No
Since the flood story is found in quite similar versions in very old stories all over the world, maybe it tells us that a great flood with a few survivors in a boat once did happen.
I think what it probably tells us is that flooding is something many ancient cultures experienced and had anxiety towards, rather than preserving an actual global flood :) But, I could be wrong!
@@DigitalHammurabi The stories include that the flood happened because of too much evil among men, and some of them include bringing animals in the boat to save them, etc :-)
@@sandrapihlskott3262 Sure :) as I say in this video, these similarities can generally be explained as cultural contact between the peoples who produced the different traditions, or as pure common sense. If a culture knows of boats and how to use them, and recognizes the importance of animals, why wouldn't they produce a literary composition that includes 'saving' things necessary for human survival - up to and included animals?
@@DigitalHammurabi Yes, but I also think the flood actually happened :-)
if there was a global foold there would be evidence of it ......sorry but no such evidence exists
This video presupposes Moses barrowed from the Epoch of Gilgamesh because of similarities in both, but I wonder if it is part of a bigger reality. There are ancient accounts of a global flood from over 500 cultures around the world. What if these accounts indicate a common history of the same event?
There are many articles and books on the subject. One good one is "Flood Legends: Global Clues of a Common Event", by Charles Martin.
I would recommend reading Assyriologists and Hebrew Bible scholars on this topic.
The thing is that Moses never existed, the story was not even written by a single person and all the clues in the text(anachronism and geographic data) show that the story was written in the 7th century BCE
However, it's presented to readers (of the bible) as original material, inspired by Yahweh himself, particularly the OT or Hebrew Scriptures. The very first scribes may have had an oral tradition as they too had roots in the Middle East, (Ur according the scripture), so they inherited those stories. Years later, in the creation of a nation pledged to new leadership and allegiances, they drew upon something "established," just as today's Christians celebrate holidays that have their foundation in earlier traditions. It's like usurping a throne and having the king's seal in your custody. It sort of gives authority to claims, rather than being an "upstart" with no roots. If you read the Quran, you'll fine many biblical stories, yet the book is said to be wholly inspired by Allah to one man, who then had it written for his followers.
Exactly. She is positioning a remake that happens to have a different plot focus like its still its own original and calling it "intertextuality". Its still part of the Star Trek universe...just a different series. But whatever
None of the "gods", including the Jewish and Christian god, are real! They are all just made up so that those god hawkers, like priests, preachers, etc, can use your gullibility to manipulate and control you!
plagiarism, a moderan way of some one trying to claim origaniality, other than the first human who spoke -wrote-sang-danced, everything is plagerised
So it's a mythical trope.
Your forgetting about other flood myths besides the sumarian flood myth
Acharya S
dont be jealous reed History Ancient Sumarian first civilization
in world we teach you and all world and am pride
reed apout - Sumerian and Mesopotamian and babylon
you will see how we teach you
the BEGINNING heer from my contry iraq
you told as we dont teach you
Are you kidding me
the god
chosen as for that
all people should see gret civilization iraq
dont be jealous
all people They know
apout that am very pride
first civilization
in world in iraq
ln Genesis God Pharoah was in human form , he didn't create the Universe, he created a map if it . And name light " day " and the darkness he called "night" , he was naming things he saw in the Sky. Then he allows the animals to reproduce. Then later on he says he will make humans in his "own image in his own likeness" , he had many children and grandchildren and one of then later on became Cain's wife. (Because we see in the Bible later on that when Cain left after killing his brother , he went to the land of Nod , meet his wife there, because there were a lot of people of the earth at that time and some were living in the land of Nod ) Then God Pharoah planted a garden, and put the man Adam in the garden which is called the Garden of Eden which is in Egypt ( There are RUclips videos that prove this) . Then later on God Pharoah gave Adam a wife, and according to the Bible Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters , the first two being Cain snd Abel. Then generations later after a flood that didn't flood the entire earth, Noah built an alter to the Lord Pharoah and Pharoah like the smell of the burnt offerings. Then we see the sons of Ham were from Egypt and other countries and are the ancestors of Noah- Genesis 10:6 . Then the Bible says Abraham moved to Egypt -Genesis Chapter 12. Clearly the God Pharaoh had died, as their is now a new Pharaoh in Egypt when Abraham went there.
Hmm 🤔 someone actually wrote a Debunk, refuting and explanation on this and "it's been deleted!!"
What's wrong?.. don't like (truth) confrontation??
here it is.. luckily I copied it!
A COMPARATIVE STUDY OF THE FLOOD ACCOUNTS IN THE GILGAMESH EPIC AND GENESIS
(siding with Biblical accounts of the flood)
answersingenesis.org/the-flood/flood-legends/flood-gilgamesh-epic/
@@WayneLeWag skylarfictionshow@gmail.com. Email to come on and present your case.
Those are gorgeous birds!
But the three to four pronged (fingered) hands are off-putting.
Thank you - I’ve actually fixed the hands in the next video ☺️
You forgot to mention that the earliest copy of the epic of Gilgamesh dates to 700 years after the writings of the Torah
Cool story, bro.
This is false. The earliest records of the epic of gilgamesh predate the Old Testament by hundreds of years and thats just written.
am very pridef irst civilization
in world in iraq
❤️
thanks to you Thank you so much
yas am proud its first civilization
in world wat you told nothing to do wat am mean
first civilization
in world tech you eavry thing
in my contry iraq
you must hapy for that
we teach you
dont be jealous reed History Ancient Sumarian first civilization
in world we teach you and all world and am pride
reed apout - Sumerian and Mesopotamian and babylon
you will see how we teach you
the BEGINNING heer from my contry iraq
you told as we dont teach you
Are you kidding me
the god
chosen as for that
all people should see gret civilization iraq
dont be jealous
all people They know
apout that am very pride
first civilization
in world in iraq
Hat do you think of the video inspiring philosofy madenabout this topic?
well, those gods could’ve very well been the angels. ;)
Angels aren't real either! It's all just made up BS to manipulate and control all the gullible, superstitious, goobers!
@@liyo4950 and how could you prove that? what evidence do you have that says ‘every single story, every incident, situation, and inspired writing, that makes mention of any kind of angel or god is real’?
@@liyo4950 my family is watched over by the angels. don’t try to claim that my faith isn’t real, because it is, and it’s stronger than you and i
Is Megan a christian ? That would explain the intertextuality, even Hindu epics have a flood myth with Vishnu saving human kind. The Mesopotomian stories all acknowledge polytheism, OT which is later adaptation just takes teh story and claims it was all done by Yahweh and obfuscates and delegitimizes the older story. Which christian is willing ot claim Noah's flood is adapted from Sumerian myths ? In all the examples, the robin hoods and jane austern derivatives all acknowledge they are based on older sources, Bible doesnt do that, it claims all is from Yahweh, that is the big difference, can't call that intertexuality as bible does not acknowledge its intertextuality. Point is bible story is not original but is an adaptation or plagiarism of sumerian creation stories.
சமூக ஆர்வலர் I am a Christian, and wholeheartedly acknowledge that the Biblical flood is lifted right out of Mesopotamian mythology. I don’t know why a text has to acknowledge intersexuality for it to be that and not plagiarism, all I am doing is presenting the academic view of that relationship.
If you can give me a reference to an academic argument that says this is plagiarism, I’d be most interested to read it!
@@DigitalHammurabi Atrahasis and Gigamesh are not much different compared to Genesis where it is part of larger corpus of stories about Yahweh. If it is lifted out why is it not plagiarism, I dont' know if "all" academicians unanimously arrive at a consensus on anything. Intertextuality just emphasizes the relationship between stories, clearly the genesis accounts are later yet completely recrafted for Yahweh in the context of Israelite nation, maybe Israelites 3000 years back believed they originated in sumeria, yet when yahweh cult reared its head, the author of genesis felt compelled to recraft teh sumerian myths for yahweh cult and it stayed that way. The Genesis story is not taken the same way as Robinhood movie by the contemporary audience. People shout plagiarism only because theologians claim that it is true word of God. Maybe if plagiarism is a heavy word with bad connotation, adaptation is good enough. Bible is a religious text, how academics feel about it does not affect how it is viewed by Jewish and christian theologians. All that needs to be acknowledged is that there were many such narratives about floods, bible was close to the sumerian one.
@@CuriousAlien they used the symbolism and mythology of their culture to tell a story about the creation of the world and human beings and the relationship between the creator and creation in that context. Since they were monotheists they told a monotheistic story about creation as opposed to the polytheistic versions.
Only problem is you just claim in between lines there is any prove for copying. Never keeping in mind that both texts might have derived from actual events which is far more logical. Another thing is why would someone copy something but make drastic changes that do not seem to add anything interesting about it. You made great points but just assuming it has been copied is an absolute flaw and obviously mistaken.
I think you missed the most obvious argument. That is historical events are not intellectual property they are simply facts. You'll find many similarities between interpretations and recountings of the french revolution but none of them are plagiarism because nobody owns the french revolution.
Websters? Ach Megan, you've sold out. OED.
You need help lady, it’s a money power grab through an old story!
If you say so, friend :)
"The names of those involved in this story were changed to protect the innocent."
DUM DUM
Literally made me LOL! Thanks!
Then what's the ark on top of the mt Ararat found just years ago? Maybe noah's story was actually real?
You could have worded that bit after 6:00 as "the Biblical account presents a schizophrenic deity in need of an anger-management class" - as happens when you collapse the bickering between the Gods into a single one.
She is trying to be objective. I don't think that will be ever said by her.
common common I think Rand Huso is making a joke
@@jamiee7367 His challenge video to Jason Burns(a crazy apologist) mentions the same statement with the same sentiment. He is probably serious. Anyway he used it as a jab in that video too.
I'm assuming you know as much about science as you do the Bible. ruclips.net/video/Swz8rIcCu_M/видео.html So here's a 2 min clip of scientist of the year and professor of: computer science, material science, bio chemistry, nano tech, currently at Rice with over 600 published works, over 100 patents in nano tech, 8 companies started from the medical field to the oil field. James Tour gets up at 3:00 every morning so he can spend two hours reading his Bible, for the last 30 years. Why? Because Huso ever believeth shall not parish, but have everlasting life.
@@chrishughens3266 Here you are using arguments from authority. You have not checked the claims made by James Tour yourself, you are piggy backing on his talks given to non-scientific audiences, on his religious views.
Prove the other versions came before the bible
Read ANY academic publication on the topic… or go visit a museum.
The ancient Sumerian Tabets are way older than the Torah😂
@@floptaxie68 ah no. It's assumed only by the dreams of those deceived
@@Charles-tv6oi it’s called carbon-14 betch
@@floptaxie68 not accurate on old things n they fudge it . See articles on evolution flaws n Eldridge Niles also questioning own methods in 70 s science journal
Your argument for 'intertextuality' as opposed to 'plagiarism' is totally unconvincing imho. To me this is a clear sign of plagiarism whereupon the same narrative is retold as an original one by 'dressing' the story in a 'monotheitic' tone. What matters here is that the narrative is essentially the same.
that's not plagiarism. Otherwise all mythology is plagiarism
@@lookatmepleasesir The Oxford dictionary defines plagiarism as "the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.". That's precisely what happened here. And if that's what happening with mythology than that's plagiarism too! Simple!
@@nisachannel7077 you're projecting a modern concept onto the past, and assuming that the biblical authors were trying to pass off someone else's ideas as their own, when it would have been well known that other versions of the same story pre-existed their own
@@lookatmepleasesir I'm not sure about the 'other versions of the same story'. AFAIK, there's only the Sumerian version that the biblical authors 'ripped off'. But regardless of the number of previous versions, the fundamental issue I have is that in the western world the ONLY version that is popularized is the biblical one told like if it were original with no mention anywhere by anyone that it isn't in any way shape or form original!
@@nisachannel7077 all canaanite religion, not just israelite religion, originates from mesopotamian religion. There is an assyrian version of the flood myth, which is mesopotamian but not sumerian - assyria was upper mesopotamian, and semitic like the jews and caananites, the sumerians were lower mesopotamians and not semitic, but did originate in upper mesopotamia which is where, if I'm not mistaken, the flood story of gilgamesh and enuma elish takes place. The sumerian stories would have been oral traditions before they were written down. There is also an iranian version of the flood myth, which is neither semitic or sumerian, but is upper mesopotamian. Were the iranians plagiarists as well? And were the zoroastrians plagiarists of the iranian polytheists because they have the same myth, or did they just inherit the same mythological tradition? The epic of gilgamesh itself, is taken from the earlier enuma elish - is it plagiarism too? Were the canaanites and israelites plagiarists because their gods, including El, originate from the earlier ugaritic civilisation, or did they just inherit a cultural tradition / transmission/ diffusion?
yas am proud its first civilization
in world wat you told nothing to do wat am mean
first civilization
in world tech you eavry thing
in my contry iraq
you must hapy for that
we teach you
So the most important message is that the Bible is a copy of earlier texts, not historical, just a bunch of fables.
Okay, perhaps not plagiarism, but still not a description of real events.
I say this because many people think this book is a historical record.
I guess that's just assumed to be false in this video.
Pretty much, yes. Most academic study of this material will assume that they're a collection of literary compositions, rather than an historical record of fact.
But we do have good evidence that some of the events in the bible were real, such as the resurrection and the flood itself, Inspiredphilosphy's I think does a good job in compromising the evidence
@@maxten1237 I disagree wholeheartedly that we have "good evidence" for either of those things :) But, I am neither a geologists nor a Roman history specialist, so I could be wrong.
@@DigitalHammurabi Hi there, well if you check InspiringPhilosopy, he does convey really good evidence for why the Flood could of been a possibility in those times, and wow, really happy that you responded. And the same goes for the Resurrection, with multiple books and studies concluded that Jesus Christ was a very likely possibility of being resurrected, analysing the Traditions of the Romans, Eye witness accounts, archeology land sites and so on.
@@maxten1237 we do have. But the bible verison is false and plagiarit the bible flood happened couple thousand years ago. The real flood happened somwhere 12000 years 14000 years ago. Somwhere around there. (Younger Dyras cataclysm Event) (Ice Age) The sumerians talk about it. The sumerian also left the king list a record spanning 200,000 years of ruling kings!! And obviously. The Annuanki. There also many underwater ruins. For example. In Peru. Puma Punku and Tiwanaku ruins were found depoisted buried at a level that dates them 12000 to 15000 years ago. In nearby Lake Titicaca lies a submerged ruined city. Again. 12000 old years at least at those levels.
Dwarka is another site in india.
Gaslighting
You got demons who twist history. The others copied from God. Yo dates are mixed up
Good one. Solid. 🙄
@@DigitalHammurabi they can't prove the texts they claim are older. WATCH debates
@@Charles-tv6oi Umm… you might want to Google “Assyriology”.
Intertextuality , you are all too easily persuaded by a weak interpretation of copying.
Most people could not read at the time so the flood of Noah would never have been connected to Gilgamesh by the general citizens.
There are many other identical stories like Adam and Eve, the virgin birth, the resurrection ........the Bible stories were very obviously copied by people who could read and write and they knew they would not be exposed if they used the same stories for their new religious beliefs in Yahweh.
Mesopotamia and the Bible - Intertextuality, or Plagiarism?
Yes and yes.
Bible is both plagiarism, and intertextuality.
I don't even know what intertextuality is. But, it sounds just about right...
Just joking. great video, saw u guys in tell tale's channel the other day.
Cross franchise fanfiction
It is probably just a word they made up to use to hide the fact that it was actually plagiarism...since plagiarism is such a bad word! It's just another way of continuing the deception that all religions use to manipulate and control all the gullible goobers who believe in such nonsense instead of logic, reason, and science!