Sig P320 M17 Vs Beretta 92 M9 Accuracy Test Throw Down Removing the Human Error- Fast view Test only
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2022
- In this fast video the M17 will square off with the M9.
This is the fast test only. Just the test. No fluff no muff. Many only want the test. Many want a short video. Some don't need or want explanation. This is for you.
We know many don't need info of our machine or ammo. We know many viewers only want the results from the rest. So, this is for you all this is just the test just the shots. No real explanation or demonstration.
We do a quick intro and that's it. If you are a viewer who don't want any other info this is for you. For those who want more info on how to use the Rest or about a Ransom Rest or the ammo or how to duplicate this test You will need to watch the full test and not the fast view test. We all know that no gun is the same no ammo the same. If you are not testing, you are guessing. Your gun could shoot differently.
We will do more testing this is to be continued. For now, here are the first results from this ammo and this test for this round. Take note that none of the guns or ammo were previously tested. After the test we feel none of the guns actually performed to their best ability with that ammo used. But for that info and explanation of each shot see the actual full-length test. But for those who want the first-round data here it is.
These are two Iconic well-known handguns battling it out. Does it really matter which is more accurate? Does it matter you like Ford or Chevy.
We decided in this video test to using one brand of ammo for this first round of tests. Ammo does matter. And what is the reasonable accuracy expected out of these two handguns with that ammo. Many wanted an independent comprehensive examination of this repeatability and accuracy of these guns. To start we wanted to keep it simple and decided to use one brand of ammo. Was that the right choice or wrong choice. Let's find out. If you are not testing, you are guessing. Which is more accurate with that ammo. We will find out for this round of testing with the Military/ LE ammo we used. Does Ammo matter. Comment your ideas and suggestions for this test bellow. Give us a thumb up.
We do not know who will win. We actually don't even know which ammo is the best in these two guns. We will find out as we move forward in our testing. This is real world testing. As we go through this series, we will test these guns fully and accurately. This is only test with one brand of LE ammo. So, stay tuned for more testing and more ammo for a full compressive review.
Is it me the gun or the ammo? Have you ever shot at a soda can at 15 yards and say? I can't believe I missed that. Can your pistol even hold under 1.5" at 15 yards? If it can't, it may increase your chances of missing.
Accuracy matters. Sure, many guns can do an occasional 1.5" or sub 1" group but can they do it repeatable. Some guns may have 3 or 4 rounds that group good once in a awhile but not all 8 rounds. And are they Repeatable 8 round? Again, and again. What ammo does the gun like? Is it me the gun or the ammo?
We are here to find out. We do not cherry pick the rounds or groups this is real true results in our videos. This is why you may miss that soda can. If you are not testing, you are guessing as they say.
First shots and groups shown here. No special formula no tricks out of box stock gun and stock ammo. Ransom Rest test for repeatability.
Subscribe to channel to get notification, will add more tests and video soon. No special formula, stock ammo stock gun real world test in real world environment. You can do this test to.
This test was done at the 15-yard mark. It grouped very well for the distance. then we went to 50 yards.
What ammo does your gun like? What ammo do you prefer? Is it me or the gun? Ransom Rest helps you find this out.
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Beretta M9/92 has always been incredibly accurate and it will literally eat any ammo no matter how dirty and shitty. I have a lot of pistols but its the one sitting next to my bed at night outfitted with some Crimson Trace grips and a Streamlight.
This video was excellent. Your safety protocol was spot on !!!! Finally someone knows how to run a test with the correct process and procedure and protocol. You had the cameras to document the tests, you had the high end and very accurate chronograph and the all important Randsome Rest.
You ran this testing procedure like IBM Engineers
Congrats !!!!!!
Ricky from IBM, Ret
One safety issue I noticed was that he reached in front of the gun after loading it to grab the remote trigger. He did that repeatedly.
As an accuracy snob, I LOVE these videos!!
I'm so glad I discovered this channel. Always been a handgun ballistics and accuracy addict. This channel feeds the addiction! Perhaps one day soon you could run an accuracy test on the Sig Sauer P220 .45 versus a similar 1911 .45...say a Springfield Armory Loaded or Garrison? Thanks for your work!
It’ll also bite your ah d every time you rack the slide
The 92 series is just classic marksman pistols, not surprised that it would hold such a tight grouping.
Thank you for this great video .
Very detailed and informative.
You all did a great job!
I could do this all day. These are the tests I love. I have a new appreciation for the Baretta 92 and the Sig P320. Still, I think my next 9MM will be one of the new P210 targets.
P210 target feels quite ergonomic to grip, and the trigger is so nice that even a beginner like me was able to get a good group at 16 yards. Quite expensive though.
Beretta
I purchased my first 92fs about a week ago. And this video pleases me very much so. 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Me too.i.bought mine a month ago and seeing this video.pleases me so much I made a great choice
I might be late to the game, but I may have discovered the reason for the 1st round flier/ hand rack phenomenon. Loading pistol ammo for 9 mm and 45 acp, I loaded dummy rounds to gauge max COAL/ CBTO and set up dies. Part of this was setting up the crimp die, so I ran the dummy rounds through some very aggressive cycling to simulate firing, so I could see if the COAL changed. The 1st round that I dropped the slide on had little to no change. Subsequent rounds were cycled as aggressively as I could by hand. All rounds, except for the 1st, had very significant shortening of their COAL. In the ball park of 0.010" to 0.020" shorter. I tried 2 pistols in each caliber with the same results. Dies used were hornady custom grade sets. Crimp was lee factory crimp dies. No amount of crimp solved the problem, from no crimp to the point where I gave the projectiles an hourglass figure from massive over crimping. The cases were not flared or expanded, only sized, loaded, then crimped. Since then I have noticed similar problems with some gas gun rifle rounds. I have also heard of and seen several factory loads have similar problems in pistol and rifle. In pistol, I solved the problem with lee under sized pistol sizing dies. Obviously changing the seating depth will change performance of the ammo, usually most obviously point of impact. So my hypothesis is that the 1st round has the correct COAL and all subsequent rounds have an altered COAL (most likely shorter from hitting feed ramp, but I've seen cases of COAL growing too). The change in COAL changes the POI. These changes may happen consistently (all mag rounds have a similar final COAL), leading to good groups with a 1st round flier, or inconsistently, leading to poor groups. Sorry if this is old news to everyone else. Thanks for reading.
Joe
Even a mechanical hammer doesn't do what it does every other time ...everytime
COAL will change internal volume which translates to a change in pressure....so what you say makes perfect sense
I subscribed just bc of the use of this chronograph... Gets rid of goons on RUclips saying "this gun shoots better" when in actuality they just may shoot better with X gun ...
Ernie Langdon is smiling from ear to ear!
Those berettas are still very impressive to this day. The military could've stuck with the 92 and either updated it or ordered new standard issue ones and logistically they already have the training, parts, magazines, etc, to keep it fielded. I always liked the M9 far more than the basic p320
The Beretta is a beautiful machine
It's odd they decided to put the APX into the ring instead of an updated 92, but then again they tried to prevent the entire competition with an updated 92 and the army scoffed. Plus an updated 92 couldn't compete with polymer striker-fired guns when it came to cost(or reliability)
The M9 is a jamomatic liability even with the loose tolerances of the M9 compared to the 92 it still doesn't handle being dirty very well.
This is also kinda one sided comparing 92s that have had work to production P320s and a M17. Why not put modified 320s against the modified 92s.
@@Irishjay1025 And the barrel is stock so just because it’s a “Ken Hackathorn” model doesn’t mean the accuracy is any better than a regular 92
These M18s they gave us are garbage. Too light to shoot accurately. The slides hang up all the damn time and with regular cleaning. Purchased simply because they were cheap, not better. They’ll replace it in a few years. The longevity just isn’t there, and unfortunately it’ll take deploying these in mass to realize just how terrible these are.
Thank you for setting this up! Excited for part 2!
92's kick ass
I'll take the Beretta every time
Awesome channel . Only problem I have is I no longer get to say it's the gun and not me. I always tell the grand kids " oh I would have hit dead center if the guns were made like the old days".
Please do the 92x series also and the m9a1 and m9a4. Tnx. Keep up the good work
Working on that. Thank you for your interest and comment. Stay tuned for more testing.
Accurate and precise
Cool video guys..
Can you please list the best performing and most accurate military and self defense ammunition you found in this test ?
In fairness, a P226 DA/SA would have been a better frame of reference with both being aluminum framed pistols. Granted we're talking current Military issue rather than similar construction, the P320 will still serve well, of course.
I'm impressed with all the guns. You can sure see how much the ammo makes a difference. I would love to see a shootout of just the ammo. What is the most accurate range and carry ammo.
Thank you.
I generally like the videos and view the Ransom Rest as the ultimate test of accuracy. Two comments; videos are way too long and you need a chart at the end to summarize the data.
Add to this: close ups across all guns not just some
This difference in accuracy shows "falling block" advance in Beretta! This is the best locking sistem in pistols!
For accuracy it is, but it's also a part that must be on one's maintenance schedule.
@@gutblaster187 True but locking block kits are only $35 and super easy and quick to replace. Not to mention the Gen-3 locking blocks are good for at least 15-20k rounds not that most people ever shoot near that much anyway.
@@chrisragone8785 Agreed that it's simple and cheap maintenance and it's worth the benefits (like that strange, muted recoil impulse). Just pointing out that there is a cost to it.
I couldn’t help but notice that the Beretta did not have grips on it. Seems like the shooting device is used had a much better hold no the Beretta. I can’t figure out why you removed the grips from the Beretta.
You can't figure it out because,,,,, you don't know how a ransom rest works.
I noticed you didn't pray to the Machine Spirits in the weapons before you used them. They probably would've performed better with some offerings beforehand.
Driving through the hood with a 92 on my thigh presently
Real (I love my 92XC)
Carried m9 and m17 on separate deployments. M17 is my choice . But I have very large hands. Better fit.
I would think the M9 is a better choice for large hands - one of the complaints about the M9 is that it was never confortable for those without large hands.
But really the preference for one or the other of the two boils down to traditional double action vs. Striker fired action.
Can I get the guy that did the hand loads to make me a few boxes of ammo?
Well what was the recipe for the reloaded ammo with the 320????
Stay tuned we will test the P320 with various ammo in video coming very soon that may help you out. And I will do my best dig up that reload recipe for Ya.
92 mechanical accuracy is fucking nuts
When watching these videos, makes me wonder why spend the extra bucks on a Wilson Combat or Staccato, when many much less expensive pistols are capable of outstanding accuracy. Looks like accuracy is in the shooter, not the pistol.
Damn how you load that ammo that shit was accurate
Weird that there was a flyer in practically every mag of factory ammo.
And always just one flyer out of 8.
I don't get it. What are you using to shoot the pistol?
Using the Ransom Rest. Ransom is the original American Rifle and pistol Rest company. Ransom Rest designed and invented the tri leg rifle rest and the handgun testing machine you see in this video. Attached to the Master Series Handgun rest is a cable remote that is pulling the trigger. This removes all human error. This machine is used by basically all major gun manufacturers to test their guns. It is also used by military and forensic labs. Hope that info helps. Thank you for the comment and if you have further questions feel free to ask.
Isn't it a bit dangerous when you're moving your arm in front of the barrel of a chambered pistol? I mean, I know you're professionals and the thing is activated manually, but... I guess I'm just a bit worried.
Absolutely. I thought the same thing as we were editing this down. Seems like from camera point of view My arm goes Infront of the barrel. That is not actually so. I did my best to keep that away during the test. But clearly appears that way from this camera point of view that day. So, I understand your comment for sure. Good eye by you.
Let me explain typically, I place remote behind machine or on the side, so it is completely clear and safe. But that day particular day due to range and table space along with camera location and floor space, we had many people in attendance for that test I had to run machine on right side, and that is not preferred for me, It kind of threw me off. Either way long story short I had to place remote just left front of rest. This made it clearly appear my hand goes Infront of barrel. As the test went on that day I was concerned about that view and perception and my fears came to light during editing. So yes, you are correct that is improper technique and never preferred. Should never do that. As mentioned, I don't feel it was as it appears, but clearly posable I did just as you said a few times at least. I was aware of this but seems not clear enough. Bad on me for sure. As you know there is no replacing a hand my friend.
Don’t be a bitch. Guns don’t just go boom. There are many other more dangerous things in life.
Where can I buy the pistol holding rig
Ransom Rest . com Ransom International my friend.
What was the exact distance?
So you have a custom seek versus a beat up cop m9
Well actually you can say we have two very high-end Beretta M9's and one cop M9 against 3 stock Sigs. But truth is all the guns are considered IDPA stock. Facts are the sigs are right from factory mass-built stock factory Sigs .. Fact is two of the Berettas are well known and have been on a custom bench, An Ernest Langdon bench to be exact. There is one custom shop sig as you point out, but you need to note it is what's called a custom shop sig, they are sold stock from Sig custom shop. One of the M9s is Hackathorn M9 Other is a custom Langdon M9 both of these have been on Langdon's build bench years ago. But considered stock components they say. The Sigs are factory including the M17 never been on a custom build bench. All this just to get an average reasonable expectation of what you can expect from these two iconic guns.
What's the distance? It looks like 25 yards.
It was
I can't hit anything with my P320, I figured it was just user error
You need give 2/3 shots to worm the gun! Tham you can make the accurate test
It damn sure looks like the Berettas out preform the Sig!
With 115 grain. The Sigs are rifled for 124 grain.
@@outback3791 lol where did you get that from. The Sig 226 has been around long before the 124 became popular. It was in the 1985 trails. The standard 9mm then was a 115 gr.
@@americanpatriot477 the P320 is rifled for 124gr. The P226 you reference outperformed the 92 in every measure in 1985 save for one - the price tag
@@Jae678 lol more Sig excuses! The Beretta is it firing itself and people holsters! Also, all 9 mm have basically the same rifling twist they’re not designed for one certain weight bullet. The Beretta shoots perfect with 115, 124, and 147 grain. But the poor little Sig can’t shoot unless it’s the perfect bullet, and is the perfect match for it little barrel. 😭The 320 actually lost the military trails and everything except priceSig actually undercut Glock in price.
@@americanpatriot477 Listen, I won't stand here and pretend I wouldn't take my tuned Baretta 92 over an M17 any day of the week for a range trip. I also wont educate you on rifling and twist rates since you seem to think you understand firearms and these are extremely simple concepts we're talking about.
The Barretta is more fun to shoot, and I am way more accurate with it. From a reliability standpoint, the different actions have pros and cons, but if I wanted a reliable hammer-fired gun, it would be my P226 without a second thought.
As for your comment on the negligent discharges, sig continues to win the suits and all that have a determined cause are due to negligence or way out of spec holsters. There has not been a single P320 that has been proven to have gone off on its own, just stories. Hell the most recent lawsuit does not even have a single victim as a plaintiff, just a bunch of people with second hand stories suing because they were told to be scared by folks like you.
As to the most recent competition, you are correct, Sig learned from 1985. In '85 they produced the hands-down best handgun(with almost double the mean rounds without a stoppage than the Baretta) however they lost out due to Baretta being much cheaper. Thus in 2017 rather than put forward a work of art like the 226, they chose to instead put fourth the most reliable firearm they could produce on the cheap. What they submitted has been proved time and again to be on par if not superior to the Glock in every aspect except fudd acceptance.
👏👏👏👏
Nato ammo is the best. Little more juice.
The amount of hate the 92fs gets over here is incredible. People asking why you even bought one, why didn't you get a CZ, people looking at you like you are crazy or "was probably really cheap huh?". I like Beretta, but I'm pretty much alone in this. Kinda sick of it already, might just trade it in just to be done with the bs.
You make good points, but the same is true for Sig. The amount of hate for Sig is huge, too. We like all guns here at Ransom Rest, including our love for the FS Beretta 92s. Thank you for your comment. Please stay tuned, my friend, and keep that 92FS.
Guy sounds like seth rogan
OH, WHY SO MUCH RECOILING?
I must have missed it, but what was the distance to target?
15yds
Thing is it isn't a lead sled using these in combat. Its a human.
I don't completely understand your comment. First a led sled is from that country that dont allow you to own guns China. It is a China imported Steady rest. Im sure you know it is those green rests you see. You may not be aware, but A Ransom Rest is the original all American made rest and is used by the gun manufacturers. It is the original American rest company before those green ones. That said regarding what i think your saying and that is this machine shot vs. human shot. This machine is made to duplicate the human. Even the hand grip inserts are made to be durometer of human hand. The US Military says this is the only machine that is duplicatable by end user and no handgun model goes into service for the Military or police without a Ransom Rest test. So, you may not know but when Beretta won the military contract, A Ransom Rest was the machine doing the test. Same as when Sig won the military contract. Ransom Rest was the machine and Rest on the front lines doing the test. Hope that helps your info some.
A machine shot is useless if not duplicatable by the end user and a Ransom Rest duplicates the human but removes the human error. It holds fires and recoils like the human hand does.
@@Ransomrest we call them lead sleds in my part of the country. Bottom line is you dont use a gun that way for self defense, hunting or competition.
@@thomasgiglia6260 I believe the purpose is to test the function devoid of human error, comparing the absolute peak performance. Not that human testing isn't important, as well, but this is testing mechanical accuracy. Obviously all of the mechanical accuracy in the world doesn't mean a damn thing if you fail to make it shootable to a human being, but that doesn't make it irrelevant to test these things.
@@thomasgiglia6260 No, they don’t call them a lead sled in your part of the country. A lead sled is incredibly different from a ransom rest which is what you’ve already been told.
And this is to test the accuracy of the gun, only without human mistakes. If the gun shoots like crap out of a ransom rest it will shoot even worse out of human hands. If it shoots very well from the ransom rest it will shoot as well as the human user is able to. This video just proves that if you are shooting a Sig Sauer P320 or a Berretta 92fs and you can’t hit anything with it, it’s definitely your fault, not the gun
🇺🇦👍
The Beretta….. the looks of a Ferrari, but the trigger of a Fiat.
There needs to be a logical explanation for the flyer
Fliers are caused by (for the most part) inconsistencies in ammo production quality. Some are loaded barely hotter or barely colder, sometimes it’s seated just a bit improperly. More premium target range ammo has less “fliers” but all ammo still does have that. The precision of the gun as a threshold, the consistency of the ammo brings out the maximum precision of the gun, a more precise gun is easier to be more accurate with. Accuracy is a measure of a shooters ability to hit where he wishes, precision is a measure of how consistent the gun prints with all human factor subtracted from the equation.
@@thedon7528 yeah the seating is what im curious about because the first round seems to often be suspect
If the military wanted a polymer handgun they simply should have gone with a Glock 19 or MP 2.0 . Both are way more reliable then the Sig IMHO. I've tried to Sigs and never again. One had a broken firing pin after 309 rounds then I tried another one 7 months later and had multiple FTEs using 3 different mags.
You may be right and may be wrong. All due respect there are a few things to consider here before making conclusions. The military chose their new carry by many tests and procedures. One of those tests the gun had to pass was a Ransom Rest test. This was required. It was required when Beretta 92 won the contract and also required when Sig won the contract in 2016.
They tested the Glock gen 5 as well. And in fact we had the Gen 5 a year before anyone even knew it existed even before the net spoke of it. They also tested a Beretta during this contract bid which until 2023 was not known of. As of now in 2023 it is finally released but in 2015 2016 it was not known to anyone. Today it's now called the APX A1 Beretta, with no finger groves. Since it is released as of January 2023 and since many people want to bag on the military decision. We will now show a test with the APX A1 also the M&P and many others yes we will also show a Glock gen 5 or should I say known as the Glock 19M which after losing the contract they renamed the gen 5 and made available to the public. .
We have the actual list of the ones tested. why because no gun goes into service without the Ransom Rest test. so, the military also tested a M&P and many others, and we personally know the Glock Gen 5 did not beat the M17 sorry, but it did not at the time.
Regardless of anyone's opinion. The military has a rigorous testing procedure and a ISO lab to do the test at. Keep in mind during that test for the Military our Ransom rest was on the front lines doing some of the test.
Please stay posted to our channel as we will test some of these models that made the requirements to be tested during their solicitation bid at end of 2015 to 2016. But before you base any opinion on the M17 or say the Glock should have won. You should watch our second test with the M17 side by side with some very high-end gun smithed the M9. There is also a summary of this video. If you are not testing, you are guessing right so being informed is helpful .
May also watch some of our Glock test videos we share. Or maybe even watch applied ballistics video of Glock firing slow moton. This was in Ransom Rest slow motion looks like a wet spaghetti noodle this is why gen 4rs are thicker than the gen 3 and why gen 5 even got thicker. That said we like Glock, and we will release a video with an actual Glock 19M so stay tuned for that if you are Glock supportive.
We back all models and guns. And all the manufacturers use our Rest, so they are our customers. We like all guns. Please keep in mind also for data that most gun models here in this video were P320s. There was only one actual M17 in the video in the lot. And it ran right with a high-end Langdon 92. Explain that, may watch 2nd test. Seemed the M17 also needed broke in and the flyer hand rack round went away. Interesting. But remember if you're not testing your guessing. Or basing their choices on just opinions. Mey look into their test protocols to see why the Sig won before basing choices on another platform. Hope some of that info helps. Sig did not impress me at first in 2015 actually the Beretta APX did and I thought it would have won. Ransom Rest had all the models in house before the military test and I myself was also surprised that Sig won. But if you follow their test protocols it was the best choice at the time. Even if I didn't agree. The tests show which model was more capable and at the time it was Sig that won the tests. Regardless of my opinion, the tests can't lie. And there is a reason for the testes. I thought the Beretta Apx would have won but the Sig beat out the Glock and the S&W and the others. Hope that info helps. Thank you for your comment and feedback. 2ns test side by side vvruclips.net/video/xFir-ubySGA/видео.html
Sig Sauer is so overrated. Plastic junk.
SIGS are junk.
A blanket statement like that is stupid.
You are a funny person
@@yahbuddy827 funny?,..... now the 320, THATS funny!
Beretta killed the sig
This video just verifies my experience, m9 is more accurate than sig shit