Response to George Farmer and Allie Beth Stuckey on Catholicism Vs. Protestantism
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- In this video I respond to the recent debate between George Farmer and Allie Beth Stuckey on Protestant and Roman Catholic differences. I offer three clarifications about misunderstandings of Protestantism.
See the original debate here: • Part 1 | My Husband Ge...
See Tony's Lane Treatment of Sola Scriptura here: www.amazon.com/Pathway-into-H...
See my interview with John Meade about the Old Testament canon here: • Which Old Testament Ca...
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Introduction
01:00 - 1) A Protestant View of Church History
12:09 - 2) Sola Scriptura
18:06 - 3) The Canon of Scripture
22:51 - Final Thoughts
“Don’t get your theology from the Daily Wire”
- Athanasius
😂
YESSSSSS!
💯
On par with Protestant accuracy of Church history.
So funny!
There are almost zero Protestants who believe that everyone between Paul and Luther were condemned to hell. I know she's being sincere, but that's so ridiculous.
In fact, the way of salvation is the same from Abraham to today. Faith in the promises of God centered on the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus. Looking forward and looking back, salvation is obtained the same way.
I must say that Candace should know better, especially now that her husband has converted. The fact that she said she is "struggling" with the question and doesn't know what position the reformers held tells us how little she knows about the history of Reformation. I haven't seen the full debate yet, though.
As a Catholic Ive been told more time than I can count how I am going to hell by prots.
@Haron Smith but of course you have. No one claimed that Protestants believe that all Catholics are going to heaven. That's not the subject being discussed.
@@haronsmith8974 Here is the difference. In the middle ages / immediate post reformation every single Catholic including the hierarchy believed that any and all Protestants were going to hell and were not afraid to say so while historical Protestants never came close to claiming this about Catholics. Today there is a small group of highly sectarian Protestant Evangelicals with extremely fringe views like Calvinism and extreme expressions of Lordship Salvation etc. who are veering ever more to the right side of the theological spectrum. I am sorry that the majority of that group lives in your area but they are not representative of mainstream Protestantism. More likely it is a symptom of Western cultural division. For what it's worth I am sorry for what you had to endure. Please take those statements in context. Everyone needs to be saved but that is not the same thing as "anathematizing" someone for simply being Catholic. God bless.
Even though I am still actively wrestling with Catholicism, I cringed a bit when Candace brought up the idea that Protestants might think nobody was saved for the first 1500 years of church history.
I really hope she eventually understands the actual Protestant view, which is that Christ has sustained the church despite its errors throughout history.
@@Wilkins325 as a protestant myself, I'd really like to hear a protestant state exactly what they think Christ has protected of the church (I am being sincere not facetious). Is it just the simplicity of the gospel? We can't claim that it's doctrine when so many of us hold opposing views and some straight up teach heresy or little to no doctrine at all. What is the bare minimum that Christ would need to protect of the truth for his promise to be kept that he will not let the gaits of hell prevail against the church? And is it likely that he would ONLY protect the bare minimum?
I strongly lean towards conversion to catholicism over these questions
@@Jessica-rb3ci I think it’s clear that Christ has sustained the faith because otherwise, the faith would no longer exist today. It would have been wiped out, simple as. However it is clear that there have been “saved” Christians surviving throughout history regardless of them being under Rome or not.
The Deposit of Faith, composed of the scriptures and the sacred traditions.
Preserving and protecting the bible for centuries. from 382AD to the first printed bible "Gutenberg Bible" in 1455AD.
@@Jessica-rb3cithe gates of hell not prevailing isn’t a reference to error free doctrine for the rest of time. It means that believers will ultimately triumph over death. Throughout the Old Testament, “gates of hell/hades” was synonymous with death. And think of the word “prevail.” If a coach was telling his football team that they would prevail over their opponents, would you expect it to mean that the team would play without error? I would understand it as an extremely hard fought battle, but eventually gaining the victory, even if it comes right down to the wire. I hope that helps.
Here's a great person for Candace to invite to her show...
Yeah I actually thought of Gavin immediately when I saw Candice's video. Wanted to comment that her husband should debate Gavin instead.
@@Francoisdp82 That would be great, but sadly I think her network prioritizes a "culture war" mentality. Thank God Gavin doesn't seem to fit the bill.
@@CorbinatorLoL that’s exactly why I love this channel
Candace's main interest is not in an actual theological debate but more in YT viewership. There is a reason why she invited her husband and Allie instead of actual theologians.
I would love to see such an interaction and it could very well do wonders for the faith. If it's possible to coordinate somehow God willing, I'd encourage it
I've been protestant my whole life in a family of protestants and evangelicals. I 45 years I have never once ever heard anyone in any church say no one was saved and went to heaven until Luther. That is straight up some lies from some anti protestant radical. I have studied church history and that was not a belief.
@southfijigal
The point Candace made in my opinion is that apparently Christian's didn't know what the truth was in terms of the faith prior to the magical reformation. I believe that was what she was getting at. Keep in mind by dumping Catholicism protestantism has now dumped other aspects of the faith that had no need of rejection. It ended up being a disaster for the reformation and Catholics alike.
Yet and still thats exactly what protestants act like: you are the true Christians. Well, I got news for you, you are NOT misunderstood, that's Catholicism, and yeah, you do act like the true Church spring up by heretics like Luther and Calvin.
I cannot say that anyone at anytime is saved. I only know that through the grace of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, I am saved. PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!
I don't think she meant that Protestants actually say that. She meant that they express it in many ways. Protestantism has different ways of salvation than the Orthodox and Catholic churches, the only two churches that have apostolic lineage. She meant that when Protestants vehemently reject the Catholic/Orthodox way of salvation, they are in essence saying that for the first 1500 years no one had it right and weren't saved.
@@bhs3871It is interesting what one can take from what is being said. The words Candance said are as clear as the light of the day. This argument originates from the Catholic Apologists and is fed to their hearers especially when they are trying to convert them to Catholicism. If one follows the Protestant way of evangelism, they concentrate on converting people to Christ when they preach the gospel, not history of the Church or who did what along the way. Most definitely, like most Protestants, Candace had never been confronted with such a question, simply because it is not been a necessary question in the Protestant Church because of the Protestant view of their leaders, including the Reformers. Protestants don't believe that Luther, Calvin, Zwingil or any other Reformer were the beginners of the Church, nor I am sure that such an idea ever entered their mind. But Catholic Apologists forms that angle simply to undermine Protestantism whom they believe are not part of Christ's Church! They say that Jesus established only one Church, and claim others are not Churches in "proper sense " (Pope Benedict said this); and if you think about it, that actually means that in Catholic sense of understanding Church, Protestants have no Christ, which means they may be entitled to the same question even more! I normally ask my Catholic friends, whether they believe all Protestants are heading to hell for not belonging to the Catholic Church established by Jesus. Apparently, they too are forced to think about their claims. Radical sites like Church Militant do believe Protestants are heading to hell.
Personally, I believe the "donkey" work of evangelism is done by Protestants, who adopted the street or door to door preaching of the gospel to the lost (People like Ray Comfort) and his ministry The Way of the Master are doing a great job of facing hostile people to tell them about Jesus. This is what believers are called to do. We don't know who the ELECT are, our job is to present the gospel and let the Holy Spirit work in a person unto salvation.
As a convert to the Catholic faith. I love this channel! Of course I disagree but this man is truly charitable when dealing with differences. Anybody who is an orthodox Christian who pursues Christ the king and shares the Gospel are brothers of mine!
As a Protestant, this channel has helped me reaffirm my faith as well as better understand the beliefs of my Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters without reaffirming the caricatures that I've grown accustomed to. In fact, those caricatures have died out as a result. While we may disagree on beliefs and doctrines, you're still a fellow brother in Christ.
@@Southernly he was using the term orthodox to distinguish it from heterodox or heretical. He wasn’t referring to the capital O Orthodox Church.
He leads people away from the truth. That would include Jesus.
The early church was Orthodox.
@@Momof15plusnot true
My wife and I were literally talking about Candace’s video this weekend! It’s so hard to see people struggling with questions of theology when they don’t even have a correct understanding of either side. Thank you for covering this!
At least there were two sides represented in the video. In many videos it is one side critiquing the other without any chance to reply. And as much as I like Gavin - and I think he tries to be fair - he is often rather dismissive of Catholic responses. This is why it is good to have someone of equal heft on the opposing side who understands all the historical references and issues inside and out.
Yeah this really was a sad debate in my mind. Candace from the gate has a misunderstanding of Protestantism. Allie Beth from the beginning says that scripture doesn’t directly affirm sola scriptura. There is no debate to be had if you don’t believe that scripture itself says scripture alone. You’ll always have to talk in circles cause you can never prove your argument.
@@sethmickley5020 where does the Bible affirm sola scriptura?
@@sethmickley5020 sola scriptura, like the word 'Trinity', is not mentioned. But it is implicitly taught.
@@TheB1nary No? It’s not even implicitly taught in the Bible. On the contrary, the Bible categorically says otherwise. But it is claimed that later on, there was a paradigm shift when the entire Bible was written. At least, that’s how I understand some people claim it to be. Feel free to correct me though.
This is my favorite RUclips channel! Thank you for all your doing brother!
I had just finished watching both videos of the debate/discussion between George Farmer and Allie Beth Stuckey, when I saw your video in the sidebar. Thank you so much for clarifying these particular points. It was especially helpful to hear the distinctions between early church history (the first 500 years) and medieval church history, and that the Reformers were actually trying to go back to the beliefs of the early church.
One time, I asked a protestant friend, "How were people saved for the 1500 years before the reformation, huh?!" Gotcha!
"The same way they were saved before the Catholic Church came along."
Ouch.
So we’re saying that the real Christianity didn’t came until Martin Luther 🙄
@@novena8743 I can't seem to find that statement anywhere in my comment. So... that's what YOU are saying. How was Abraham saved? The Catholic Church? Romans 4.
@@novena8743 No, Christianity began with Christ, hence the name.
Before the Catholic Church was the Jewish faith. They were saved by Christ, wherein we - the church came along.
@@alejandrinahs After Christ was resurrected the first church was established in Acts by the first believers/first Christians, but this wasn't the CC...that came hundreds of years later.
just found this and your channel, and very much appreciate the information. now a subscriber.
more than the knowledge, I appreciate how gracious you are to those with uninformed or otherwise wrong views.
I'm old in body but young from the second birth, yet even with my level of knowledge hearing Candace's struggle with the 1500 years/no one saved thing was the most utterly absurd argument for roman catholicism I've heard to date. when you addressed it you were extremely gracious to her, which I admit is something I'd struggle with if it were me, so I really appreciate it when I see a good model of Christian behavior, it has definitely pointed out my own issues in that area. SDG!
Dear Gavin.. please keep doing these. Its edifying
Martin Luther was not the first person to stand up against the papacy and the catholic religion.
Luther was an idiot!
Yeah, just the first one who escaped being burned at the stake.
I do Thank You Gavin for your Channel and all your work. You definitely have the gift of teaching. I'm learning a lot thank you.
@Robert Stephenson so you don't think that Gavin has the gift to teach?
I watched the Candace Owens debate a few minutes ago. Frustrated with the responses, I immediately thought "What would Gavin say?" Sooo excited and appreciative that you already had a response on hand!! Thank you, Gavin for your service to the body of Christ. Your content has gone far to equip me and temper my own tone in discussions with other believers.
I will be the mean one to say it was like watching the Special Olympics. We want to have sympathy for them but not exactly "fruitful". I am not sure what Protestant church Candace went but I worry more about her.
@@thomasc9036 Such a comment is not merely "mean"; it is false and antithetical to the teachings of Christ. As Gavin noted, these are intelligent people so speaking of them in a way that demeans there intelligence is not only a lack of Christ charity; it is complete nonsense.
@@AnselmInstitute This nonsense of being nice is an American gospel. The reason this debate even happened is because they were intelligent. They know how to "market". Do you really think Dailywire couldn't invite two qualified teachers?
@@thomasc9036 If you think the law of love was invented in the US, you are mistaken. Calling them mentally handicapped is the modern equivalent of calling them fools and Christ said that those who utter such statements are liable to hell. So you need to rethink whatever you imagine to be a Christian ethic.
@@AnselmInstitute The belief that the law of love is always being "nice" instead of truthful is an American gospel.
What you are proposing is your own cultural twisting of the scripture.
I'll take a wild guess that Candice won't be inviting John MacArthur on to debate her husband.
That would be like Tyson fighting in the ring with a high school wrestler
Thank you so much for taking the time to evaluate and respond, glory to God!
I'm so happy to have a wide network of Christ following people to look to when I'm stuck on a question. Thank you for running this channel. I hope Candace watches this video at least.
Glad you made a video on this, Gavin. The original video came to my attention by another youtuber, but it was much shorter. Great video, as always.
Another awesome video Gavin! Love your commitment to the issues and the fact that you are always so gracious to those you disagree with. Keep up the good work! Wish I lived closer so I could attend your church lol
Amen Dr Ortlund. God bless you! This video is a rich blessing and I thank God for your truth and love for the church (body of believers) dispensed in it. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks Dr Ortland. Great video. Commenting for the algorithm! 😊
This is so good. Straightforward and with clarity. Thanks Dr. Ortlund.
WOW Im so glad you're speaking about this. WhenI watched it I thought why wasn't Dr. Ortlund invited. 😇
You’re very articulate and good at explaining these things. Thanks for this video.
I’ve been reading through theological retrieval for evangelicals, and much like this video, it’s eased a lot of tension I’ve found within myself. Especially coming from a pretty exclusive Faith tradition, it’s so comforting to know that Jesus has been working through all ages.
Thank you! I know God lead me to your videos. I am stuck between two faiths and your videos are a gift to me! Sincerely, thank you!
This was far more refreshing than their original arguments! Thank you!
Awesome video Gavin ! I’ll always love your sola scriptura videos.
Thanks for commenting on that debate! Found your channel from Beckett Cook.
I already liked this video before watching it completely because I know it will address the points clearly and accurately lol. I’m so glad you did this!
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@verwesne8121
And it’s easy enough for him to change to a dislike if it turns out he’s wrong. A premature like isn’t cemented in the fabric of reality for all time.
Thank you pastor for everything you do to build bridges in the church! 😊🙌🏼
These clarifications are so refreshing. Thank you Dr. Ortlund.
I am intrigued! I have not heard of you so now I must do a deep dive! ❤
hope you enjoy!
Very well said. Thanks Gavin again for this wonderful video!
So good. Dr Ortlund doesn’t disappoint!
You are doing great work sir. You have helped me greatly.
I’m commenting for the algorithm so maybe you important points get shown to Candace who reaches a lot of people.
Thank you! Very helpful clarifications!
So much respect for Dr. Gavin!!! I admire him and trying to also see common ground.
In the comment section under that video I was like: INVITE DR. GAVIN! 😂 And here you go. You made a video in response to their discussion! Thanks for your work ❤
Abandon Christianity?? You don’t think Farmer is a Christian?? Just because he’s not in your denomination? You’re the problem.
@@tsolis7355 unrelated comment 🤷♂️
Appreciate the commentary. Wish more people knew about this channel.
Thanks for this discussion. Well needed today.
Dr. Gavin’s charitable nature is admirable! The three involved in the original conversation are clearly in over their heads.
This RUclips channel is a God send. Along with Jordan B Cooper’s channel, you guys are a blessing to so many.
Candice is still Protestant, and not a Catholic, so why worry about what she said? Why not deal with the facts as presented by her husband? I invite the presenter to take up that challange. Also the early Fathers are Catholic on every point of doctrine. The Church deepens it's understanding of apostolic doctrine. The difference betweeen the early Fathers and Protestants is that the early Fathers firmly held that the Church was established and guaranteed by Christ and was the Final Authority. The Protestant rejected this, and as they say, the rest is history.
Oh how I wish I was smart enough to comprehend all this... so interesting! You are gifted!
Thanks, Gavin, for this response. As always it was fantastic! Also, I love how you stick to accurate historical Protestantism as held by the early reformers. With that said, I would love if you made a video about the infallibility of the scriptures versus the modern innovation of inerrancy. I would think that the early reformers are more in line with the Catholic Church's view of Scripture as stated in Vatican 2 then they would be with modern evangelical view of inerrancy even before the early reformers knew of science and history as it is known today.
One of the more painful debates to watch. Both sides were not qualified.
That is the problem with "the church" - it makes a fool of itself and has nothing to do with Messiah and salvation.
Thanks again for clarification.
The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him.
Proverbs 18:17
George: I just came across your channel. I am a Roman Catholic. I also struggle with certain aspects of Catholic doctrine. I attend a weekly Men's Bible study comprised of multiple walks of Protestants and non-denominational churches. Through the years, I have been able to bridge a strong understanding between both factions of Christian doctrine. You are excellent and well thought out. Though I agree with much of what you had put forth. I don't agree with everything. With that said, I love your clarity and reference for everyone to review. I love critical thinking people such as yourself. I will continue to follow you. How can I donate to support your channel?
I think I have a new favorite channel, thank you sir.
glad to be connected!
Thank you for speaking on this important issue. I totally agree with your points.
THANK YOU for your opening comments - I had to pause the video after Candace's question (love her, btw) because I was like no no no!! That's NOT what we believe!!
This was great, Pastor! It was nice running into you at Grand Central Station in NYC. Your channel is a blessing 🙏🏽
Great to meet you JR!
He was in nyc??
You clarify these arguments so well
It was painful to watch the Farmer-Stuckey discussion. I spent some time in the comments there correcting some caricatures, just hoping someone would be helped. I specifically pointed people to Gavin, so it’s a joy to see him releasing this video. Hope it gets to Candace and her followers, somehow, in God’s providence.
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund!
Thank you for this clarification. As soon as I heard the question, I was shocked that anyone would think it a good challenge to Protestantism. We all have a duty to become certain of the things we believe and why. So thank you for providing your resources. 👍
My Friend this is so sooooo Good especially as you are explaining the Protestant Reformation medieval vs patristic era. The fact it wasn't the intention of Martin Luther leave or start a movement but to reform the Church back to its original roots is astonishing. I prayed about this, it's important that Christians and myself understand true church history in order to move forward with the Glorious Gospel. I also believe that some Catholics are saved despite incorrect theology because of ignorance. I believe in Sola Scriptura. I did Screenshot the Martin Luther and Calvin quotes so I can read them over and over blessed be the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is Lord thank you so much!! Lloyd. I actually appreciate the debate that Candice Owens had.
I have never heard of the idea that Protestants say no one went to heaven until 1500. Goofy idea. How could any thinking person take it seriously?
Well done, Gavin! The Spirit of Christ genuinely expresses Himself in your humility, love, and integrity. Thank you for sharing your labors here, desiring all of us to avoid needless 'sectarian' ghettos and dogmatism. Cheers!
This is why we have to beef up Protestant apologetics. Too many people fall for these pop-level talking points. And I discern that Candace probably is as well. My gut tells me she put this discussion together because she is struggling between her intuitions on Protestantism (she thinks its correct) and Farmers talking points (which she doesnt know how to respond to)
Farmer was previously an Anglican, so he no excuse for thinking nobody was saved during the first 1500 years of the church.
All he would have to do is read the Anglican liturgical calendar and see all the saint listed and realize his Protestant church does not believe that.
@@FloridaManGraham He also seems to forget that Anglicans do have a place for the Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal books: "And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrines." - from Article 6 of the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion. Also, the BCP includes canticles and readings from these books. How could he have missed this?
@@mj6493 he is making a point to a Southern Baptist who rejects the Deuterocanon. He is asked to quote Scripture concerning Purgatory and states she doesn’t accept what he has to offer, his interlocutor being a Baptist and all. IOW, the Anglican position is an outlier within Protestantism
That's like saying we need to beef up flat earth apologetics.
To be "Protestant" is to protest against Christ's Church. Which like its founder Martin Luther, is based in pride and self-empowerment.
@@hometownapologist7879 Fair enough. I forgot Allie is a Southern Baptist. By the way, Lutherans never really omitted the Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal books either, though Luther did categorize them as helpful to read but not suitable for establishing doctrine. And his view was not an innovation. It was held by many others as Ortlund has pointed out. Most American Protestants included these books in their bibles until the 19th century. I really feel that Catholics and Protestants are not as far away from each other on the issue of canon as people think. Protestants emphasize the "deutero-" part and Catholics emphasize the "-canonical" part.
Good video! Very informative! Would you consider doing a video on the contradictions of councils in the east, a more in depth video about things like hieria vs Nicea II? Thanks for all the work you do!
I couldn't believe the crunch question for Candace was "Do you think everyone pre-Reformation went to hell?" It misses the point by a country mile and I dont know of any Protestant, myself included, who believes that! I was so disappointed in Candace's lack of understanding of her own faith.🤔
Ok but consider the outstanding wealth of those that say Catholics aren't Christian
And entire denominations are rabidly anti Catholic, such as the seventh day adventists
@Gregory Mendoza It sounds as though Candace hasn't given a great deal of thought to the Christian faith generally - I hope she does so with folks other than George, on both sides, before coming to a decision either way.🙏🏴
Just because someone can't articulate a question in the most precise way, it doesn't mean the question has no merit. Ok so some protestants don't believe everyone before the foundation of their sect is in hell, that's nice but that logically means they believe there's an objective point at which the Church Jesus founded no longer works and by following it you are in fact condemning yourself to hell, otherwise any other particular sect would be redundant. The question here is: which year was it? It must mean in the intervening years and until this or that protestant sect came about, there was no formally valid way to attain salvation.
@The Dude’s Catholic Lutheranism is all about unburdening the conscience of the faithful. Indulgences, the treasury of merit, purgatory. These extrabiblical teachings unnecessarily burden the faithful in a way that is simply not Good News. It's better to rely solely on the work of Christ on the cross. That's Good News!
To be fair, Candace has openly been a christian for only a few years. I remember in her interview with Russell Brand that she mentioned "not being very religious". Unfortunately, I think her faith is a bit of an achilles heel.
I remember her making a video about how to argue against abortion with the bible and her arguments weren't very strong theologically.
Her take on the Catholic vs Protestant debate doesn't surprise me.
As always cogent well argued historic augmentation presented firmly but charitably. Thank you
I've never even heard of this before. How many Protestants think no one was saved pre Martin Luther?
It's a pretty common strawman that Catholics use against protestants.
@@morghe321 ok so what's happened to those catholic then
@@Kanjiro.D You don’t understand and make an strawmans
@@Kanjiro.D well, some of them were saved, some were not. Also, keep on mind, the Church during the patristic era didn't hold to many of the doctrines that the Roman Catholic Church holds to today, as Gavin has pointed out several times, in this and other videos.
thank you for making those issues clear ; i was thinking of 1 Cor 4:6 " Don't go beyond what is written " and psalms 138 :2 ... "For you have magnified Your word above all Your name."
As a Catholic, I was really hoping you would cover this!
@robertstephenson6806he moved to constantinople to make the praetorian guard irrelevant
Thanks for this! To many people rehash bad arguments and don’t bother to read the verifiable evidence which leaves an ignorant hole in there views and bad attitude in disagreements. Keep at it Brother!
Can everyone in the comments please make sure Allie Beth sees this video?
She's blocked me, but I applaud the idea, nonetheless.
@Gerard Perry why did she block you?
@@morghe321 I think it's because I had some mild critique of something she said in one of her videos. I can't even recall the substance of it at the moment, tbh. Some creators are just thin-skinned.
I believe Allie did a great job, especially in Part 2.
Interesting stuff. Thanks for the clarity.
This video's a great reference, saving for latter to dig in more!
I so appreciate your videos. They make it easier to accept the tradition I’m brought up in
Yes. Everyone has a tradition. Glad we’re accepting that tradition isn’t a 4 letter word
Honestly Both of them have a lot learn about protestantism.
They all have alot to learn about both Catholicism and protestantism. Neither represented their sides well.
I receive Jesus every day in The Eucharist, nothing anyone can say can ever make me leave Him
@@michellemcdermott2026 Christ dwells inside your heart 24/7
Stop idolizing Eucharist and appreciate it as a sacrament
And Allow God to lead you.
@@theknight8524 It is a Sacrament, but once consecrated, the bread becomes the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus. Early Christians believed this.
Jesus said "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” 6:51
"For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink." John 6:55
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. John 6:56
"Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me." 6:57
"This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 6:59
So when you say stop idolizing the Eucharist, you're saying not to worship Jesus.
As a Catholic, I was embarrassed for her (Allie) and her replies. She didn’t do her homework and clearly did not understand Catholic theology.
She's brand new to any kind of real Christian faith. Imo she didn't properly represent either side
Who? Candace or Allie?
@@jaredlowry3547 candace
Candace wasn't debating. George won the debate. He had truth on his side.
@@RedMcgive i was referring to the other woman, i don’t know her name because I have not seen her before. Allie i see it is.
This was awesome! 👏
Always appreciate Dr. Ortlund’s take on subjects like this. As someone discerning Catholicism I really appreciate his take in things. I guess my one bugaboo with this is the quote by Calvin at the beginning. I’ve read Chrysostom’s commentary and have read a decent amount of cyprian as well, I guess I just find it odd that Calvin would appeal to these church fathers when they so violently disagree with him on some key aspect of his theology (ie. Freewill, eternal security, and the depravity of man). And of course you don’t have to take my work for it, Chrysostoms commentary is pretty accessible and another great resource for the pre nicene fathers is the dictionary of early Christian beliefs compiled by David bercot. Also I’m not saying this to dog Calvin or my reformed brothers, just feel like his quote is a little unwarranted
And also, perhaps I’m reading too much into that Calvin quote, if so then I apologize. Trying to be better about giving people the benefit of the doubt 👍
@@rickydettmer2003 I don't want to sound rude, so please don't take it that way, but I think that you are reading too much into the Calvin quote. Why? Because, as Gavin pointed out in the video, there are places where the early Church fathers disagree with Protestant doctrine, even sometimes on the most important doctrines. As Gavin said, it's only in the most important areas that Protestants are closer to, but not necessarily in complete harmony with, the early Church, and even on those areas there was some disagreement between the early Church fathers; therefore, one doesn't have to agree with a Church father entirely to cite him as being, in general, in agreement with Protestants on the most important doctrines.
I hope you find this helpful.
P.S.
Thanks, very much, for trying to be better about giving people the benefit of the doubt. This is one of my struggles as well, and we would all do better with practicing this more, as you are doing here.
Try the Anglican divines on the church Fathers. Completely different spirit.
Is that a work or set of works? I’m not familiar with that term sorry
@@rickydettmer2003 They're a group of the most influential Anglican writers, but there's no official list of Divines.
Please make a follow up video for Part 2 of the "debate."
Super helpful and informative. Ty
This was excellent! God bless!
Dr. Ortlund - Excellent! So glad you did this, and so fast!! I just watched the George Farmer & Allie Beth Stuckie video yesterday and also noticed those same things. wow, you responded fast. Great job on those 3 big issues.
And another thing - George Farmer said the Assyrian Church of the East (called by Rome and Constantinople as the Nestorian Church) - that they were completely wiped out by Islam - not true. Some have survived in Iraq and Iran. Some are in Syria and Turkey, although many many have immigrated to the west to escape persecution by Islam. Pope John Paul 2 had some kind of get together with them in the 1980s and Rome agreed not to deem their Christology as heretical anymore (a centuries long, millennium more mis-understanding - Nestorius actually agreed with Leo's Tome (Chalcedon, 451) after he was exiled (431, Council of Ephesus). (Nestorius, The Bazaar of Heraclides) , although I don't think the Eastern Orthodox have ever accepted that church as not heretical.
I hope George and Candace Owens see this soon. Both your video and my comments about the Church of the East.
Is there a list of Ex Cathedra Statements by Rome anywhere? I have never heard that it was only used 7 times in history (per George's statement). Jimmy Akin and other Roman Catholic Apologists usually give some kind of vague statement that it could be 16 or less. (from my memory) You are right that they debate over when it was actually done in history. Very obscure.
excellent concise teaching on these subjects
Excellent video! Thank you!
Fantastic teaching! Thank you! ❤❤❤
I believe there are larger spiritual forces at work right now then debating Protestant vs. Catholic. If we can come together as people of the faith, I believe we can accomplish a lot more for Gods glory and heal the land. The Bible states, if my people, who are called by my name shall humble themselves and pray. 🙏🏽
I'm going to have to listen to this excellent video many times. Way above my pay grade .😮
let me know if there are any ways I can be clearer! :)
Dr. Ortlund,
I've read Gallagher and Meade's recent work cover to cover (with the footnotes!) and these texts were eye opening regarding the patristic canon. My only disappointment was that it stopped at about the 500s. I know that everyone says that the shorter tradition continued to rumble on for the next thousand years. Do you have any recommendations for strong treatments of all or any of the medieval period's canon discussions?
William Webster and the book why Protestant Bible's are smaller that cover medieval data as well.
Great video!
17:30 to further add to your baseball analogy, would it be correct in saying that the umpire is the church (fallible) and the rules of baseball is scripture (infallible)? In other words, the ump can mess up interpret things wrongly, but the rules of the game are set in stone and can’t be changed or corrected.
Hope you respond to part 2 as well
Hello Pastor Gavin, could you do a response video to Part 2?😊
So helpful! Candace should see this
I am a Catholic and disagree with Gavin Ortlund’s beliefs but sincerely appreciate his charitable explanation of Protestant doctrine and attitude toward Catholics.
So you follow a pedo Pope. Got it.
I really appreciate this work brother! Definitely of interest to me as i am passionate about helping Catholics see the truth
@@violetsplace524 hi it's very nice to meet you ❤️ I love your name btw. Anyway, to stay on the subject. What I'm referring to when I speak about the truth, is helping Catholics understand what really went on in church history, that there has been much deception in the church that has led people astray and started early on. God told us that these things would happen that there would be wolves in sheep's clothing and this comes to us now in many ways but I do believe the roman Catholic church has had wolves among us. This has led to a twisting of truth and false teachings that has produced a lack of understanding of how we are truly saved. This is a very important concern and incredibly important that we get that right because without salvation in Jesus alone by grace through faith we cannot gain eternal life. This is a cause for concern and I feel called to do this. I have such a love for Catholics and I want to make sure all people know the truth , understand the gospel of salvation. All the promises that God has for us and I believe the church robs many of this. There is much missing. There are many other subjects that can be discussed but I do find it can be very difficult to do over text or written message. So if you are interested in having a conversation or several I would absolutely be honored to do that with you. Definitely open to learning from you as well. We can email or do a video chat which is nice to get to speak face to face. Let me know God bless you , lots of love to you xxxx
@@violetsplace524 Christians were martyred at the hands of catholics, not the other way around. Catholics burned men, women and children for being re-baptised, for not believing in transubstantiation (which is cannibalism), not confessing to a priest sitting in a box, not praying to Mary, who herself was in need of salvation and is not "the queen of heaven". Salvation is in Messiah, the Creator, alone.
@@AmeeraG242I appreciate you wanting to have dialogue on this subject because I too wish Protestants such as yourself to return to the true Church and embrace the true faith not watered down by the reformers. We want you to embrace the Eucharist and accept Christ completely in the form of the blessed sacrament.
Protestantism in its desire to be seperate from the Catholic Church has unwittingly severed themselves from the sacraments Christ gave you. By dumping Catholcism they have accidently dumped their own Christian heritage and traditions. It's been a disaster, for both us and for you.
@@AmeeraG242 Hi Ameera, please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Any questions/answers concerning the Catholic Church beliefs and practices can be found here. Let me know what you find out. I would also recommend that you explore beyond the arguments you hear about Church Fathers and read about their lives and how they lived their faith. This will provide you with the proper context to have a true understanding of what those Church Fathers believed. It is one thing to hear what a person says no matter how wonderful the words might be, it is another to see how that person puts those words into practice.
I agree with you that our Church does have wolves in sheep's clothing, but most are true believers in Christ. This problem did not start or is not only found in the Catholic Church. We can argue that Judas was a wolf in sheep's clothing, yet he was one of the chosen disciples of Jesus. Your concern has been with the Church since its beginning. In short, the devil is not out of work yet!
@@peterw1177 I actually have and found alot of what was in there goes against scripture. This is why I continue to have concerns
Hi Dr. Ortlund. Can you please tell me if Mark 6:42b is a foreshadowing of priests breaking the communion and handing it out? Is there any scripture that says more and is it a hard one for us Protestants to explain?
Catholic here , the problem is nobody knows anything anymore nor do they care , the Non” s (non religious) have taken over , they are not even atheists they just don’t care and super hero movies are their religion , you and Trent Horn are both lovely apologists by the way. I just watched Ready To Harvest on RUclips he said the Amish will have more members bigger than most main line Protestant churches, Christian no matter Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox have work to do for sure
I have never even heard of you before these last 25 minutes. Great video. Before I say anything.......I was just wondering what you think of RC Sproul? The father that started Ligonier Ministries.........
Was waiting for Gavin to give his thoughts🗿
I have never heard any Protestant or Evangelical claim that no one prior to Luther went to heaven. I've studied the Reformation, and I've been in Protestant/Evangelical churches most of my life.
Please review part 2!! Can you respond to his comment on John 6:53?
Hello Gavin.
"... most contemporary Protestants have drifted from historic Protestantism in my book... "
Exactly. Glad you said that. In fact it would seem that most contemporary Protestants don't even know historic Protestantism.
The same thing happened in the Roman Catholic Church, the only difference being that that Church has had about 1400 years to drift while the Protestant Church has only had about 400. Hypothetically, in another thousand years the Protestant Church will have drifted as far as the Roman Catholic Church has to date. Same ol' dynamic.
In principle, I personally do believe in the Protestant Reformation (Revolution), but not in the Protestant Evolution.