Find someone who looks at you how Mike looks at Chat Bubbles KEKW... So the debate surrounding addons and 3rd party tools rages on both in WoW and FFXIV - some of it reasonable... and some of it not so much. What's your position on addons?
I have no philosophical objection to addons but if the devs don't want me to use them for the sake of fairness then fine. Not having to worry about addons or mods definitely makes getting into and keeping up with a game less of a hassle, and I think it allows devs more freedom to design challenges if they don't have to account for addons solving them instantly. I don't care what other people do, but I think there's value in having addons not be the norm. It is unfortunate that harmless stuff which improves the game experience in non-skill based content is a casualty of that policy in XIV, but I get where they are coming from that attempting to define permissible addons is a futile endeavour and people will always find ways to skirt the rules to give themselves advantages. I only hope that Yoshida is true to his word about bringing in popular addon features and that it doesn't take too long. QoL improvements in XIV are consistent but slow. In the meantime, just use addons if you want since it's not like you're gonna get caught unless you're a streamer or youtuber.
FFXIV is playable on PC, Mac, and PlayStation. That means, any addon use is considered cheating. So acknowledge you are cheating if you use addons, because you have access to information that is unavailable to the majority of PlaySation players. And maybe Mac players? All these hypocrites trying to find any excuse possible to justify why they can cheat. Seriously, don't justify that you were breaking the TOS, just accept that you broke it. And if you don't want to break it, then play the base game. All of the PlayStation players play using the base game, just how hard is it to do that? Seriously, if you are playing inside a poker tournament with other people, how is it fair that some of those players can use cheat tools to improve their play? It isn't fair. Poker is a poor example granted but it is very similar. Finally, all players should be on the same equal footing. That means no addons. If this doesn't happen, then all console players become the second hand citizens. There was already post in reddit where Party Finder would only accept people using addons. So no addons is acceptable. But if you are going to use it, then admit and accept that you are cheating.
So. I've not used any addons to help with boss fights for the duration of Shadowlands. I raid Heroic+early-mid Mythic bosses. There has been a single mechanic I found was 'addon required' territory. (It was the Among-Us mechanic) There have also been two mechanics where my experience was "I can do this without an add-on, but it could be better broadcast." Everything else, I've felt it was properly broadcast and gave sufficient time without having an add-on yelling at me. So basically, I think boss-mod type addons could safely have their functionality cut back a lot. Most other addons are fine, but there are some that cross that line into 'this shouldn't be' territory. Venture Plan changing the appearance of the mission table is fine, Venture plan auto-filling your team to pass the mission seems too much.
I like FF XIV New aproche to says we see what we can do yea it takes a while Till the changes will come but the quality of Life changes in the last Patch is for me and Indikator that they listen and will make the changes and im not sad if we never get dbm or recount I never like them in wow I had recount for wotlk raiding and saw dbm on streams and both I didn't enjoy
@@OakesParker Console players were always second class citizens. Why should the rest of us be forced to bring ourselves down to their level? Imagine if World of Warcraft launched on consoles and Blizzard suddenly decided that all addon usage was against ToS and a bannable offense.
as far as FFXIV goes, it's key to remember the ToS has not changed since it was introduced a decade ago. Addons have always been against it, but it's not applied universally and sometimes they look the other way. The race had too much though and I assume they felt they couldn't not do something. I don't think the team is going to start banning people for accessibility plugins and ui decorations. They gave us an inch, and some tried to take a mile.
Same argument I had with someone else about them months ago. They kept saying Yoshida said they're not against the rule as long as you don't draw too much attention to it, but that made no sense. If it's in the TOS it means they can go after you whenever they want, but have chosen not to because it wasn't causing too many issues.
I continue to use ACT dmg meter (for measure my own more than my teams, it's how I found I was playing black mage entirely wrong lol). I don't stream it or talk about it in-game so I know I won't get banned. Yoshi-P even directly said they aren't going to monitor people's systems to detect addon's and such, which is why I'm so confused people act like the sky is falling
@@Akinon93 People are acting like the sky is falling because people are dramatic. This is basically a fucking yearly conversation in FF and it's always the same parade.
Just don’t show it. That’s really all you have to do. People were showing their addons while streaming. That’s why they got banned. Just don’t show it.
@@Akinon93 i am curious though, which add-ons did the Dragonsong Ultimate world first clear team use that gave the an objective edge in their clear? ACT is a big help for understanding dps data, but i wouldn't say it is actually helping people clear the hardest content in 14
With regards to FF14 banning addons, besides just the philosophical objection of wanting the game to be fair and be played as it's designed, I think there is an element of legal protectionism and paranoia which is common among Japanese companies. They don't want you to mess with their product, and they DEFINITELY don't want to be held responsible for HOW you mess with their product, or what happens to you if you do. They are not just thinking about situations where someone installs something that trivializes the game. They are thinking about situations where someone installs malware thinking it's an addon, and then blames the company for saying addons are okay. They are thinking about situations where they say mods are okay and then people post their big titty catgirl nudie mods all over twitter with the implication that the company approves of this. They are thinking about situations where someone mods in copyrighted material and the copyright holders decide to hold Square Enix accountable because they allowed it.
You say that, but you can mod FF, replace texture, install post processing programs, pose and many, many more. They outright say that’s against TOS, but did very little to stop that. On the other hand, Blizzard with WoW had blocked almost all of the cracks in the user made space. The target list that FF was blocked by Blizzard because they don’t like how it changes the gameplay. The view distance was taken off the player’s hand. Anything modify game file will get flagged so no model, spell effect replacement. It is true that WoW UI modding is far more advance, but I think that’s due to WoW popularity, rather than FF making it difficult. Sure, the FF team outright disallow addons while WoW only prevents players from having any intellectual right over their addons. Looking at it practically, WoW is much more heavy handed with the entire addons, modding situation. That’s both good and bad, I do appreciate less cheating in WoW, but I would be spending much less time in FF it I weren’t able to mess around with ReShade screen space reflection fake ray tracing settings and picking the best textures.
@@lc9245 It's not about stopping it, it's about absolving themselves of any responsibility. It is the same deal as Bard's Performance action. When you first use Performance there is a box that pops up which makes you PROMISE to NEVER use the feature to play copyrighted music that you do not have the rights to. Guess what people use Performance for. No one plays anything BUT copyrighted music and no one gets in trouble. But Square Enix is protected because if the rights holders of that music ever got pissy about people playing their stuff in FF14 and decided to go after Square Enix, Square Enix could simply say "it's not our fault, that's against our rules and we made them promise not to do it. We have no culpability here, we just didn't catch them until now." and then ban the player. Addons are the same deal. If someone uses addons and in so doing fucks up their computer, harms the game's image, or does something illegal, Square Enix's hands are clean. They can simply ban you or tell you to go fuck yourself.
@@lc9245 lol true but just because there are laws doesn't mean no one breaks them, they are just reserving the choice to do something about it. If you ever been to japan you'd know, it's a country with anti-protitution law... but every sector in every city has some form of that on the main street even. This goes across the board with everything there, but guess what they are mostly a law abiding society that's infamous for safety to the point where you leave your wallet accidentally in conbini, chances of you finding it without anything missing in it is extremely high... different society different world different values. Whereas here in the west you know those situations are unrealistic, ppl here don't just like trouble, many goes out of their way to make trouble, troll ppl, hurt others out of boredom even, because we have a much more cruel dynamics than theirs. Their first notion for rules is don't break them and live peacefully, our first notion for limitations and restriction is "you can't stop me! i have rights!"
I hope FF14 will take in a lot of feedback from what people want in add-ons to improve the UI and accessibility options. I've never liked downloading add-ons for WoW and I've really been enjoying FF14 on console. Not having to think about stuff like updating add-ons or worrying about damage meter performance has been so much better. I would love to see chat bubbles added too, it looks so much better than looking at a chat window.
it will NEVER be enouth. just listend to asmongold's interview with a modder. It's all about being disngenious. Hiding behind claims like "oh but we do it for people who have disabilities that are not takken care off by SE" SE are the only one who know what is detrimental or not. Because they have a global view. Addons may as well give the abilities to just do everything in one button or play itself for thoses who want to while claiming it because of some disabilities. the fact that they have manage to make the game be fair and work cross platform shows a lot. We ain't talking about a studio who doesn't try what they put in. releasing half finnished stuff and letting the players QA for free in their stead.
5 years from now, 2 expansions later, they'll let you sometimes have chat bubbles but only in solo instances. My hope after the hrothgar hair is so low its clipping into the floor.
@@kaly8329 than let's do the easiest solution. Toggle on/off. Done, problem solved. These who want them get them and those who don't want them won't get it.
I hope they add chat bubbles to the game officially because the Crawler's stage play, one of the greatest player created things I've seen done in the game, would not have been possible without them.
Since FF14 has no official API, it's kind of impossible for the devs to regulate addon usage which makes drawing lines about what is and isn't okay a lot harder since they can't enforce strict boundaries. It would come down to how they worded their rules and I think they fear that any concessions towards allowing addons would quickly get out of their control and could potentially cause problems not just for the game but for the company. Whether they could even implement an API is another matter since the game was never designed with addons in mind like WoW was, they might not even have anyone on staff who could make one. There are plenty of innocent addons in FF14 but there are also lots of really, really bad ones. Way worse than anything WoW has ever had, because there is no regulation and no anti-cheat. That stuff could cause a huge stink if it ever even got a whiff of addons being "approved for player use". It makes sense that the devs just don't want to deal with the situation when they have so little control over it themselves.
@@DeltaInsanity Stuff like mods which show where untelegraphed mechanics will happen, automatically do your rotation for you, give you permanent sprint, remove all animation lock, make you permanently immune to knockback, let you teleport around like what bots do. Straight up hacks, basically. In PvP there are also addons which can automatically respond to certain situations like auto LB to execute a target, auto target lowest HP enemy, auto Guard/CC when you're being focused, and track information that you can't otherwise see e.g. telling you if a player's guard/purify is on cooldown.
If they wanted they could just make a whitelist of okay addons to use, listing a couple of the most popular widly used addons they have no problem with, and keep everything else in that grey, dont tell, dont show area. I'd see that as a compromise middle ground.
I can't imagine playing WoW these days without addons, but I will say I love how I don't have them in FFXIV. Obviously the encounter design is different, but it is so refreshing to not have to rely on things like dbm and weak aruas. I set my HUD, and that's it. I've no problems with visual/QoL stuff, but I can see the issue SE has. I think we're all praying for chat bubble implementations, though.
This might sound rude, and I don't really mean it that way. But WoW def does not REQUIRE DBM, you rely on it out of habit, which is fine, ofc. I personally, with my vision issues, kinda need them, but before it got this bad, I played smoothly without any DBM-like addons and did just fine, and people do to this day. Just hard to imagine an addon-less game, once you have played for ages with them. I am in such a boat with FF, now that my vision is as bad as it is, I require addons to be able to play the game, unfortunately. So I am technically always perpetually breaking ToS just to enjoy the game they put out which feels horrible. So I can't imagine FF without addons either, but that's cause I literally cannot, lol. Small edit / caveat: I've not personally played shadowlands, I did hear some fights are legit designed around having an addon, like amongus phase and such, those, iobviously, are different then what I mean when I say playable without addons, I mostly meant MoP and pre, which was when I played the most.
@@KumaNicol So... You're kind of half right. If you're making the statement, DBM isn't required to kill a boss in the sense of, without it the boss is literally unkillable, then no of course it isn't, but with how wow is generally designed to work at a mythic progression level raiding with DBM is a terrible idea and you're crippling yourself in a lot of ways people might not think about at first. Ignoring the obvious mechanical conversation, a lot of fights in Mythic are incredibly tight DPS checks, and having timers to puzzle out how best to sync up and utilize your abilities both offensively and defensively is absolutely invaluable and can be a drastic DPS increase. As a monk, having a timer for a 30 second knock back allows you to hit transcendence the instant it happens and avoid the knock back and stay on the boss. Having a timer for a DPS burn phase lets a class like Affliction warlock prestack their dots and go in for a perfect rapture spam window. Knowing that the boss has 10 seconds until they're going to use an ability you need to hide behind a pillar for allows you to slowly stutterstep cast your way to avoid any lose of DPS compared to having to rush over in a panic because you failed to internally track a timer and losing damage. Without having a basic timer to see these things, the damage windows in a lot of mythic fights would grow extremely tight for your average mythic guild, and would leave a lot of people feeling frustrated at a lack of transparency with how much the game is demanding of them. With all the said, is it still doable? Absolutely, though the demand for player performance would increase drastically at a mythic level.
As a healer whom enjoys "high end raiding" in FF, I really disagree. The lack of being able to see durations of buffs and debuffs on your party members is awful for optimisation. If they refuse to make healing fun during downtime then we will have to make our own fun. For me that's parsing.
@@KumaNicol The amongus phase of Lords of Dread did not require that addon (which was broken by Blizzard within a week). The addon that people use now just lets players click a button once they highlight the players that are disguised as dreadlords, and then the players that have the most votes are known to be the real infiltrators. The same thing can be done in voice coms, which we did for the first week kill before the addon was released. The addon that everyone brings up contantly regarding this debate is the one that automatically just instantly highlighted the two players that were the dreadlords and flashed a border around their raid frame so you could just highlight them and attack them. There is a difference between an addon that lets you give visual indicators to the other 19 players, and just automatically solving the thing in less than a second.
I'm of the opinion that everyone draws the line at a different place so a true middle ground is impossible to meet. In saying that it's also the developers job to review criticism and rule breaking to find the root of the issue. Whatever compromises the Developer makes at the end of the day will only appease some people. Two things I personally don't like. 1. In WoW the competitive PvE race is determined to some degree by a software race external to the game which gives large organizations an advantage. 2. If you develop with addons in mind, you are creating a problem for players to solve external of your game which to me feels like backwards thinking, If you need an addon to reliably find a solution maybe you should rethink the problem.
Yea, wholeheartedly agree with your second point. A boss's design and mechanics should stand on their own. If your mechanics require (or strongly encourage) add-on use to solve, you haven't designed it well
Re: point 2. It's so weird with WoW because Decursive completely minimized many fights in Molten Core (hard to imagine in 2022, but it did), and they made changes to the API to basically prevent that version which allowed Mages, Priests, Druids and Paladins to just spam a single button to automatically cleanse an entire 40 man raid with zero thought. So even as far back as very, very early 2005 they saw how add-ons trivialized their very first piece of Raid content and didn't really do much to stop it. It's an interesting sliding doors moment, if they'd drawn a line in the sand then I wonder how things would be today?
The problem with your second point is that designing fights to be possible and more reliably solved without addons would just have the adverse effect of causing the addons to trivialize them even more. FF14 highlights this, since pretty much every fight including the ultimates (can't speak for Dragonsong) are trivialized by the DBM-style Cactbot, since the fights are simpler by default in order to be more doable without addons. The only solution is to do this and then to remove the combat assistance addons in their entirety. That ship sailed forever ago.
@@Mr91Jmay MC was the easiest raid ever, but it was the first time for practically everyone, and just spamming one button too completely bypass the main mechanic in encounters made what was already an easy raid into a trivial raid. Get rid of add-ons, design encounters that the bosses/room can give you all the cues a player needs to complete it, and you have a much better game.
SE has listed what they priorotize in investigations... I don't think any streamer will ever get directly banned for damage meters or chat bubbles, the problem was things like automated call outs. People forget that the banned players actually got an "I told you so" from his team for streaming with ACT callouts function which is what likely actually got him banned (making the game easier, the very top thing they investigate).
There was some waves of mass reporting streamers. Entitled people that decided to join and report people doing stuff against the ToS. So yes, even chat bubbles could be victim of these people.
@@cmerk100 Because those were the popular ones in media, but there was more. With hunt is ridiculous, and imo, a way bigger problem than a single dude breaking ToS on stream.
@@MrJesuisOMG My point is, people are making a big deal of brigading, despite the fact brigading only managed to take down two people who violated the very top item they stated they investigate on their list. Nobody else who used ACT for displaying damage and other multitudes of addons including UI changes, chat bubbles and more have received bans. Xeno, Arthars, Pyromancer, Preach and more all not banned or suspended despite using addons and they absolutely have been brigaded too.
As with most things, the sensible position appears to be the middle ground. Most people don't care about QoL/graphics mods. A game whose endgame is almost exclusively intricate dance fights, don't cheat the dance.
@@Henji96 as we are talking about this. I would be glad if SE would finally stop the support of old PC setups that can not even compete with a Basic PS4...
I think it's also a disability issue at play here. In my over a decade of wow, I met deaf players who used weakauras cause they couldn't hear the raid leader's call, I had people with mental problems and neurodivergent people who just, through no fault of their own, lost focus for q bit and needed sound queues to come back. All of those people were capable of raiding at the highest level the game had to offer at that time, none of them could have without addons. They either need to change the game to be as with the boss you mentioned, where the raid leader was obsolete, or they need to keep addons in for people who are capable, but unable to handle the convoluted mess wow makes bosses sometimes.
14 also has to contend with Console players who *can't* use mods. if they want to keep the playing field fair, there's inherently less room for nuance.
Mods aside, PC has always had an inherent advantage over console. The playing field was never fair to begin with. There's no way you can get around that. Runs smoother overall, you can have a second monitor, you can use ultra widescreen, mouse and kb has better control over controller, etc. Console players chose to take the L by going console. It's not that expensive or difficult to get a cheap PC to run 14. You don't even need a modern graphics card.
@@alihorda that is why people are failing and practicing for hundred of hours. i know not all people wanna do it. but theres always other choices to do. in all seriousness though, try experiencing it without addon. especially with friends or a group that you're enjoy to hang out with, helps 100% !
@@alihorda clusterfuck are not problem, just don't panic, die, repeat and try to slove, you look in the right place you will find answer, mech puzzle always around 'vision' in your game windows, sometime color are little bit messy like P3, but can't see it normally without add-on? nah...
Honestly I agree on this 100%, Idc for UI addons that just change the visuals of healthbars for example. But something like DBM, Weakauras and whatever addon thats similar to these 2 for Raids and Dungeons need to go. I used it myself and it felt so annoying and all over my screen. The reason I was forced to wield these addons was due to my guild and other Raid Groups because heaven forbid I learn the game systems with no cheating sort of UI.
When he started talking about using just one single addon, I knew immediately which one it is, and it's honestly surprisingly common for people to get the entire idea of using addons because of the lack of chat bubbles. I use many more addons than just chat bubbles, but I might never have started using them if the game had chat bubbles for players natively.
Perhaps amusingly, it would never have occurred to me that this might be the one, simply because I hate text bubbles and turn them off in every game I play that will let me. For me they completely break immersion, and they obscure that part of the screen I most need to see in a fight.
There's an interesting discussion about accessibility features for ppl with disabilities being abused for other players to have an easier time or to cheat. You could probably argue from a disability accessibility standpoint that wow is at its strongest right now. This could be effected by any changes made. Any changes made should be paired with more accessibility features added to the base ui/settings.
Having a bit of dev background, I think a middle line could be official in-game addons library, where they are submitted and then checked by dev team, accessible API is managed through “client keys” and addons signing. A little bit more work for game developer to manage it, but also allows “crowdsourcing” component and console support.
Also requires multi language support, a rewrite of game code to allow this to work on both pc and console. Countless work hours policing it where the community becomes angry that it's taking 12 hours for a mod update to be approved, potential legal issues in terms of mod ownership, and people will still use the mods they aren't permitted to use privatly because that hasn't stopped them before. This solves basically nothing, only allowing benign addons to work with the game at a huge time and investment sink while people are still gonna keep doing what they do anyway. Don't ask don't tell and certainly don't show is the best middle ground we are going to get.
Apps like JIRA, Teams, or games like DotA 2 use this approach and it works. Moreover people can monetize their plug-ins which incentivizes quick updates. I’m not saying it’s super easy - it requires investments and upfront architecture and code readiness. But in the end it’s a healthy collaboration between software developers and enthusiasts
I'm vanilla but I would love chat bubbles. Watching your streams with them made me realize how handy and how much they enchance the game. Its definitely the kind of mod I expect to get officiially added because in Yoshi-P we trust. I would imagine that.. going forward whatever gives even the SLIGHTEST aid IN GAME to help clear a fight, its off limits. Yoshi-P was very smart and careful not to name the world first cause he knows it was 'tainted' with these mods. In the past they likely thought it was fine but their stance changed. Discord is fine - it doesn't interact with the game (even though you could make it that it could but thats the difference). Cosmetic mods also completely fine - like the chat bubbles non the wiser knows you have them.
People using discord as an argument in favor of addons is using a really weak argument. There is a clear distinction between a stand alone communication tool, and an IN-GAME addon which requires connection with API for info on boss mechanics etc.
my fave addon in wow is a keybinding addon that lets my bind buttons to a button rather than a spellbar so i can place abilities wherever i want on said spellbar and its binds are unique to each class/spec, having to use the same keybinds on all classes in xiv is frustrating to no end. i dont mind not having addons in xiv but some elements do need some work after so long
The thing with "there has to be a middle ground" argument is that it not like as if the situation is a clear cut left, right and center. That center/ middle ground is still wide and will still be hard to have a definite point where to draw the line specially when it's 3rd party stuff we are talking about. Without giving a suggestion that gives a definite, complete and clear cut border on as to where and how much an add on can function (not counting the tasks of monitoring and keeping these addons in check being they are 3rd party softwares) SQEX will always maintain that generalize blanket stance on no addons both for sanity and legality's sake. Chat bubbles? Better UI? Those things can and should be tackled on the suggestions section for future in game improvements, devoid of the addons argument. You said it yourself, even a simple, supposedly innocent addon can be taken too far (case in point are those mods that went too far with changing looks and went into lewd territory already). I know people love their QOL addons and its understandable, in fact SQEX has always, always been lenient when it comes to usage of this things (even dps meters) as long as A. For personal use only B. Never discussed or advertised. I understand content creators will take a hit specially on B but SQEX has to make a stand and content creators do have the responsibility to abide with the TOS of the game. We have to remember anyway that the reason addons have been an issue lately is more so because of game mechanics related add ons (similar to the one in wow showed here by preach and basically any other addons that give more information about the mechanics way more than what was intended by the developers). One can clearly see from Yoshi P's post that it was their main issue specifically (even have a specific bullet point about it and even mentioned not releasing content they havent cleared themselves without addons obviously). So just steer clear of these types of addons and just keep on suggesting those in game UI improvements. As for QOL addons? If you are using them alreadt then continue again as long as you keep it personal and never shared (sorry preach, i guess you can just enjoy chat bubbles during off stream gameplay).
A significant point that's being overlooked in this debate is the fact a large portion of the playerbase is on console. If I recall correctly, the majority of Japanese players are on the PS4 and 5, PC gaming is not as big in Japan as it is in the West. They cannot install any addons at all and there is a serious concern for Yoshida about the kind of unfair advantage this would inevitably create, the worst case scenario being the rest of the playerbase excluding console players from content (there is a small precedent for this: back before the network improvements in ARR, console players were often being kicked from Titan HM parties because the lag on mechanics made it so avoiding them was much harder for console players.) At the end of the day Square Enix is a Japanese company, so for better or worse the feedback of Japanese players will always be the first they receive and take on board, and this has been apparent throughout the game's development (majority of liveletter questions have been from the JP community, for example.) I personally have no issue with any non-combat addons, I use a number of them myself and would be saddened if they decided to pro-actively start banning all of them, but I understand their position. Here's hoping this spurs them to implement the UI mods like chat bubbles into the game proper like Yoshida said, even if I don't use them myself!
Even in Europe a lot of people play on console. Most people in my static and even my FC are on PS4. The FC I'm in also has people from a lot of many places. Yeah there's a bunch of people from various European countries but then there's also a few Russians and people from South Africa. Additionally GPU prices have been extremely inflated until recently so most people simply can't play on PC because they don't have one powerful enough
I'm a console player so I can't use add one anyway but the add one I find myself envious of are things like gshade, chat bubbles and other UI stuff, I'm not interested in anything that makes encounters easier because half the fun of ff14 is learning the fights and optimising your uptime around the mechanics. I haven't tackled any ultimates yet but I have done extremes with nothing more than practicing until I've learned the fights and have done savage with discord for voice chat. I don't think add one that make combat easier are necessary but there are UI tweaks I can agree with. Luckily they've said they will look into adding official versions of UI mods into the game.
In regards to addons, I think non-combat related addons should be fine. I'd prefer they incorporate it into the main UI as I *really* didn't like having to manage addons in WoW and I am one of 3 people who actually really likes the FFXIV UI, but I also realize that itself is a glacial process and unrealistic. Whats going on in WoW right now is the logical end destination of what happens when you don't have guardrails or restrictions on combat addons in games like these and I absolutely do not want to see FFXIV come within a 1000 miles of that place.
@@AR15andGOD Look at this sad little example of the WoW community as a whole, claims they don't want other people dumbing down their game while using addons that practically tells them how to play properly. Literally like a child proudly speeding around on their bike with stabilizers, helmet, kneepads, elbow pads, satnav, harness, recovery team and claiming they are amazing. Bless your little cotton socks, the game is still bad and you know it.
@@omegaxtrigun How is having boss timer information "dumbing down the game"? All they mentioned is damage meters and something like DBM's timers-- those have never been the problem that break fights despite almost always have existing in some form. If it's "good players would just use a timer and memorize all of the timings!" Then no, that's not being a better player, that's just a having a worse quality of life for people who can do the mechanics regardless and giving raiders more mental labor as opposed to spending their attention coordinating inside of the fight itself. Or, more likely, they'd just make the raid leaders do it-- kinda like what already happens... I'd agree with almost anyone saying that in-combat weakauras (read: Not UI-based ones like spell timers and CDs, but things that handle boss mechanics) dumb down the game, but I doubt most people would disagree with that. People who think all combat addons should be disabled are fucking jokes though and probably don't even raid at a decent level in the game they pretend is stupidly easy because of addons.
@@sere971 dbm timers are dumbing down the game. You're supposed to have to know the fight yourself. Not have some addon tell you when things are happening. "If it's "good players would just use a timer and memorize all of the timings!" Then no, that's not being a better player" How is knowing the fight better not being a better player? What? lol. Knowing the fight is supposed to be a part of the difficulty of coordinating it. There should be no reason to have combat addons in any mmo. If something is too cumbersome to manage without them, then that's the devs fault and they should fix it. Blizzard has designed themselves into a corner with them for too long. They let addons pigeon hole them design wise with boss encounters, while simultaneously letting them be lazy with things like ui because the players will just fix it for them.
personally i agree that there is a balance to be had mods that give you no game play advantage but improve small areas of the game such as chat bubbles, filters for screenshots or hats for viera are things that I hope get added into the game as we move towards 7.0 but in the mean time i can understand why people will want to continue to use these to improve their experience there is definately needs to be more to the discussion than just mods good / mods bad as the answer lies somewhere in between.
The first MMO raid I had ever done was Gruul, and when my guild beat it for the 1st time, my thought at the time was, "I want to try fighting him without DBM." There was another time when I overheard a conversation between two other people about another raid (can't remember which) where they were saying how the raid is easy, my thoughts that I wanted to say to them were, "Then why not turn off DBM to give yourselves more of a challenge?" The issue with addons to help with the boss fight is that part of the game is to learn and memorize the mechanics. Think of it this way; playing a game of pairs while writing down on paper what you found while playing. While some would see it as a clever way to help win, others would see it as cheating because it goes against the whole point of the game: to memorize what you found and match the pairs with the least amount of mistakes made. My personal perspective on the situation is keeping the definition of what a game is in mind; 'A challenge based on a set of rules for amusement, enjoyment and entertainment.' If there are elements in the game that is counterproductive to me rising up to the challenge, then it's on the devs to fix it, however, if the issue is that I'm simply not up to the challenge, then it's on me to make a decision: Either improve on what is keeping me from succeeding or call it quits.
Imagine playing Counter Strike and using an "Add-on" that lets me see where every player is? ;) I say that a bit tongue in cheek, but some of the addons approach that in how they trivialize content (although maybe not as game breaking as a wall hack, but I digress). As always, the rule is "this is why we can't have nice things", because if there is any way to get an advantage, people will take it...and once you hit a stage where enough of the population uses those advantages, you have no choice but to use it yourself or you can't participate.
You're giving Blizzard wayyy too much leeway in this argument imo. Why can't they make the Jailor have unique animations for each of his attacks? Why cant they have standardized raid markers for similar mechanics? I blame Blizzard for essentially outsourcing the game design and UX to the addon makers instead of actually doing a decent job designing a good and understandable boss encounter. If they were able to step up their game, then addons would no longer be necessary, its a crutch, not a necessity.
they can't do it because they're a multi dollar company. if they actually fund the games how else will the ceos who do nothing get their paycheck bonus that's bigger than the rest of the staff combine?
Tbh I was wondering about this too. How is it that bosses back in the day had much visually cooler and visible mechanics? If I look at the Jailer fight, I dont see anything cool, I dont feel like we are fighting the ultimate threat, hes literally just standing there doing auto attack animations, and all of the mechanics happen off screen and you need 40 weak auras to see it, like why? Make the boss do something at least.
One big thing with Square is they are doing the most protective policy possible for them. One of the main issues with 3rd party tools is the legality and what some people do to characters in this game. There are various adult mods for this game, and various characters which are not over the age of 18. And combining those two things would make the game very very excessively illegal in a fair few countries. That is why even out of combat mods are not allowed by ToS.
I used to raid in a world top 30 guild from mop through nighthold and I always found it sad that even at that level that everything was pretty much figured out for us before we ever got to a boss. Full boss mods and weak aura suites all set up to make the most difficult content as easy as possible. Which to me completely undercuts the entire point. I feel like having all these addons effectively playing the game for you cheapens the experience by a ton and requires less skill out of everyone. So blizzard has to design more punishing as opposed to challenging mechanics to make up for it. And punishing fights just aren't fun design.
I'm in agreement with this. If you were to go into a room of WoW players and tell them you want to do a fight blind to experience it and figure it out, you would be looked at like a crazy person, but I do honestly think it is more fun to figure out the fight and what works and what doesn't than to just have DBM tell me "BEWARE" and do the callouts perfectly with the path already set before you. You would probably see some more consistent shifts in the meta, as well, since people have to figure out more for themselves what is working and what isn't for them rather than just following a website. It would not be a major change, but it would be a bit more fluid. (Though this would also rely on Blizzard not making so many freaking trap options or obvious quality-of-like picks in the talent tree that make a class not a migraine to play.)
Seeing Preach & the crawlers going through Amarot was all the convincing I needed to know that Chat Bubbles NEED to be in the game. Soon Pleeeeeeeeeease!
Combat addons are the ones of concern. I don't like them. Fights should be designed with clear communication from the encounter to the player. No blue balls on blue floor on blue void zones. I played the game without any combat addons from 4.3 to 6.2. 6.2 broke this streak. I needed addons for mythic HFC. These fights were not doable without them. Other addons such as custom UI's, auction addons, quest addons, automation addons (leatrix), item management addons, atlas loot, altoholic etc - these are fine.
I couldn't agree with you more. Combat mechanics should be explicit. If pe need to download third party programs to beat a boss, it's a failure of game design.
And the problem that people seem to skirt around is Blizz are now designing these fights with addons in mind, if they kept the raids as they are today and somehow stopped everyone using addons and weakauras tomorrow the raid scene would be decimated. Instead of controlling the use of addons and their impact they opted to make content harder and more finicky. It is why when classic launched people blazed through the raids because we have become accustomed to playing like machines just to phase properly, it became about the devs beating the addons and world first players more than making a fun engaging and REWARDING raiding experience. Sad really.
Old school runescape has started promoting a 3rd party client on the website since it provides a boatload of QoL plugins(including an HD mode). And they're slowly but surely incorperating those plugins into their main client. There's been some bad blood between the client and the game devs, but its nice they're getting to the point where they're doing more than tolerating eachother
FFXIV will have the "give an inch take a mile" situation which is why I don't think they should allow any and im pretty sure its the reason they dont want to deal with it.
I've been playing since ARR, and I've only ever used one additional thing since; ACT, and that's it. I dont talk about using it in game, and I only use it to see MY dps, and help me see where I've messed up, and how I can improve
These are great points. One suggestion, if you aren’t already…. turn on Japanese subtitles. I remember Yoshi P asking English speaking content creators to add them so they can watch and understand.
Insane vocal minority that went on a witch hunt. 14 UI is passable but not great and they know it. Hopefully see some additions soon. I agree with no battle add on for 14 and I would like to see wow slowly move away from them if possible. I can't stand the toxicity that gets created around DPS meters. I really want developers to come up with a unique solution to having something in game that allows the player to get better with their class/ability.
A little late to this video, but SE did actually kind of do this, with 6.3 dropping in like 2 weeks they are going to be adding timers for buffs/debuffs for the party in the party list so you can look and see how long a party member has on a buff or help if they have a debuff for some mechanics. Which until now was not in the game.
There's certain addons that I think should probably make their way into the main game (like chat bubbles being an option), but the issue is that without an anticheat in the game, Yoship only has so many options with how to deal with it, and the community's consistently ignored his "just play nice and don't cheat" pleading for years now as they lean more and more into the kinds of gameplay advantage UI mods that exist. So, his hand's been forced because he can't officially give the OK to any one addon since they're all against ToS. If I had the choice to deal with a nuclear option banning of all addons, or a game that eventually becomes WoW DBM (or worse), I'd take the nuclear option in a heartbeat.
People mistake lenience for approval. No one was getting banned, so they thought it was okay. But the devs were just looking the other way as a kindness. Once the spotlight was put on the tools, they had no choice but to enforce their policy.
@@VideogamesPang It wasn't a spotlight, it was mass reporting. The only people who got suspended was mass reported. Without the mass reporting, nothing would've happened.
@@Henji96 XIV has no automatic suspension system based on number of reports, all reports are reviewed by humans. There are also plenty of people who we know have been report brigaded and were not banned. We could speculate that they wouldn't have been banned if no one had reported them, but given there were reports I don't think it matters whether it was 1000 or 1. The evidence was in full public view, and the only people who were banned were doing literally exactly specifically the number 1 thing Yoshida said they prioritize for investigation in their post which was using addons to make content easier. Ultimately SE are the ones handing down bans, not the reporters.
@@VideogamesPang thank you for the breath of sanity. people acting like this is a crisis and "witch hunts" when it's literally a matter of "is this person blatantly using illegal addons in a public enough space where the devs can 100% verify the addons are being used by that specific person?" Suspension if yes, if not verifiable nothing happens. Sheesh.
Hey Mike, loved the video, and I hope everything is ok on the homefront. I do find it telling that Holandris, of the few boss fights where an addon is of little use, was one of, if not the most interesting part of the most recent WoW RWF. It's where a lot of guilds were given the opportunity to close the gap, and, at least in my mind, shows how limiting DBM effectiveness made for a more interesting race. I saw a lot of people giving the FFXIV grief for not immediately congratulating Neverland on the world first clear, but I think the recent crackdown highlights why. They make what is considered the hardest fight in FFXIV so far, groups start to clear it, and their kill videos are loaded with ToS violations. You can clearly hear the audio callouts of mechanics. That puts the devs in a really awkward spot because validating their clears would also be a tacit endorsement of the methods they used to accomplish those clears. Its a really delicate situation.
@@daketh4572 Yes, they would. So there's a slight problem in the way WOW designs specs because it's very apparent that they've been designed with DBM and WA in mind. This is somewhat disastrous to me because it means that the WOW devs are literally outsourcing their UI development to guys like Adam, and God only knows what happen if they're forced to quit (remember when Adam said that his PC could no longer keep up with WOW and that updates to DBM would be slowing down as a result? Blizzard sent him a new computer.), don't want to play anymore, or author existence failure kicks in. That being said, the base UI can and should be better. Like if a spec is dependent on timers, the devs should work on the visuals to reflect that. One of the things that irritates me about FFXIV *and* WOW is certain buffs and debuffs are just mixed in with other buffs and debuffs when they're really, really important. Neither game has the customizability to let the player pick what buff icons should be noticeably larger (or smaller) than others...but addons can do that (nice!), and if addons can do that...then they can do so much more (nuuu).
@@zenspeed404 It would be more than just re-designing how a few specs work, it would require re-defining how combat in general works in world of warcraft. Melee have a 1s GCD in WoW, 1.5s for casters. Damage from bosses comes in large chunks which need to be prepared for by healers a good 20s beforehand (and note: this is not 20s before when their CD is up, but 20s before the mechanic, as WoW tends to hold some CDs for certain points). Moreover, WoW bosses are only, at best, semi-scripted. Most of them work on a priority queue. Something that happened at 30s the pull before might happen at 35s the next pull or as early as 20s the pull after. You'd have to redo bosses to be on a strict script, like FFXIV bosses are, before you could even consider getting rid of addons. WoW's gameplay is much more fast-paced and reactive, whereas FFXIV is pro-active and planned.
I think another thing to consider in these kinds of situations is what will the typical, casual or newer player want to do as well. In most of my experiences on WoW, I've only used DBM and damage meters like Recount so I can keep a better eye on myself and concentrate on my rotation... BUT one thing I actively dislike is constantly worrying about my damage output, which is precisely what damage meters make me do. Or the fact that they can be used as a weapon in a sense. My favorite fights in World of Warcraft tend to be the ones that favor the player paying attention to mechanics, as I always found those the most fun. I think a problem with things like DBM is that it can kinda take away that "mystery" in a fight when you're completely new to it and don't know what to expect. Gone are the days when you and your friends needed to theorycraft how to tackle the boss - now it's become "watch the vid on how to do the fight" instead of figuring it out for yourself. As for things like WeakAuras, I hold similar feelings towards them, except I've basically never used them and don't really know how to use them all that much tbh. I generally dislike addons that make the UI ugly and overbearing. I'm one of those WoW players that tried to keep the ui as vanilla as possible, with DBM being the only real exception. (I prefer the vanilla ui so much that I'm hoping there's going to be an addon that replaces the upcoming Dragonflight ui with a more vanilla version, because I think the OG Warcraft design simply looks more interesting). I don't think addons should be banned though, ever. It would be great if things like DBM or other combat addons weren't so heavily used, but at the same time I don't want to lose neat addons that are harmless such as ones that convey more information about your character to you (i.e. DejaCharacterStats) or ones that give your UI a completely different look (i.e. GW2 UI).
Definitely feel you on the chat bubbles... To me it makes the world feel more alive, and I've always wondered why NPCs have them but players aren't able to use them in an official capacity. Of course, I realize not everyone likes them, which is why if they were to be implemented, I'd prefer them to have an on-off toggle.
I nearly wiped an early dungeon group on my FFXIV free account. I was hitting a turtle boss when I shouldn't be (didn't read the instructions) and had no clue player text did not appear above the characters. Edit: Not blaming the game for my mistakes. I would just like an option to have text bubbles if only in groups.
Wait, I was a paladin in the video of Sindragosa he used - good old Royal Vanguard on Dragonblight! I had to do a double take as I remembered a gnome mage called Mirko and suddenly realised! Thats a blast from the past, didn't expect to see that today!
I’m generally fine with add-ons that improve the HUD and general QoL. It should be obvious which ones these are. If you want some bigger fonts or message boxes, improved lighting, or something like glamaholic, then why not. That being said, the line exists where the add-ons interact with the core content of the game. The parts where the most effort is demanded of the players. In FFXIV, this is combat. Therefore, add-ons which tell you what to do during a fight, feed you information about party member cooldowns, or show you splash zones for attacks that don’t have them - and of course the damage meters - all cross the line of changing how the game is played in a drastic way. When this happens, it is not unreasonable for the Devs to feel the need to drop the hammer and enforce the rules that they put in place a decade ago.
Housing is also very involved. This isn't a gotcha btw, this is just me saying that a housing addon that allows you to place items anywhere in your house crosses the same line you noted, just not in a combat setting
@@antarath517 Full fair. I apologize for not mentioning housing, as I am not really that far involved in that culture, so the thought just wen by me. My only concern with housing placement add-ons is that apparently people placing items out of bounds causes some server strain, but once again I am not too familiar with the subject to speak on it. If it is untrue, then yes, these add-ons are harmless and advocating for them would be understandable, as housing is not one of the "priority" systems, and it all it is achieving is a purely cosmetic function, with no material no competitive advantage.
@@GambeTama Housing can be a competitive field though, that's why I bring it up. Is it fair that someone who put in 5 hours to alter the positioning of their housing items should have their work trivialized by an addon?
@@antarath517 Again, fair point. But by "competitive" I meant something that has certain restrictions and conditions set to it. Competitive housing is a more subjective matter, but I can say it like this: Whether or not housing add-ons are a grey area, there is a definite difference between meddling with the game so you can place a bed on the wall at an odd angle, and claiming that you deserve to be called a Heaven's Legend while your computer auto-piloted you through the fight.
Only 3-4% of all FFXIV players do ultimate. In the same way i'd say a similar present is folks who spend a lot of time working on house. I'd say both things get as much player attention (night club, housing competition, twitter post reddits, twitch streams). Both contents are equally niche, and many addons provide: 1. and out sized advantage, even more different HUDs can cause an advantage over the base game. 2. Act as a barrier to entry for others who are interested in engaging in this content. I think some add-on are cool, but as the line is blurry and it is rediculously difficult for FFXIV to police the use of all add-ons. I think all addons should be banned. THis said as some addon could be cool. I think square already ahs in place a great system for allowing the addition of some add on functionality. Square frequently holds competition to add different weapon glams and concepts to the game. In this say way they could hold an "addon" competition. Where addon devs can get thier ideas for UI improvements gpose functionality added into the base game.
I have only used Dominos. It is an action bar add-on. I've healed without healing add-ons untill Cataclysm or was it Mists? I used F1 till F5 to switch party members. Untill blizzard designed their difficulty around those add-ons and F1/F5 wasn't manageable anymore.
I kind of agree with square. The game and devs already do their best to ensure that every game can be beaten without addons. It is impossible for them to police every addon to decide which is good or not. I don't want ff14 to be another WOW because its always a slippery slope. The responsible thing to do is to make a discord or community that deals with this and contacts the devs. The devs are responsive to feedback so I don't see why they would ignore quality of life feedbacks from the players.
It isn't a slippery slope at all. It's black and white. WoW devs balance content around the assumption that everyone is using addons. Literally just don't do that and everything is fine.
@@mosley3485 easier said than done. It's all about the company culture. It's better to set the standards. Wow did not become what it is overnight. The addons were not as bad at first and gradually became so persistent. It's also not fair for others. Say you are a guild that wants to get a world first clear and you lose to a guild using combat addons. That encourages you to get them too. Eventually every guild has them and now they have to make better addons. Console Ayers don't use addons so it is basically impossible for them to ever get a world first
i dont get the no dps meter ... so i can not tell if i personally perform how i should. also if were a raidlead.. i will never see if some absolutly under performs... lets say just do 15% of what they could do...
Add-ons always exist because the game itself is lacking something, even for a small subset of people. Usually QOL or customization. Whenever possible, devs should look at what popular add-ons are being made for their games, because they often show what might be lacking in their game and development of said game. Most people I see using mods in FF14 are purely cosmetic or UI/UX related, telling me people want more options for cosmetics and character customization and more QOL for their UI. WoW is like 90% UI add-ons, because blizzard has refused to actually improve upon their base UI and experience outside of very small changes per expansion, on top of combat add-ons that tell you more about the fights due to how the fights are designed and visualized (imo, not always very well, especially with high end fights with not very good indicators for mechanics). I think not having any officially helps ff14, though the ones that exist exidt for a good reason; but I think wow's culture of NEEDING add-ons to do pretty much anything endgame due to how it was designed to be very hands-off in that regard. The best and most reasonable answer is ofc somewhere in the middle, and I wish WoW would ban combat add-ons and make them only UI related.
There will/you will ALWAYS find something missing when it's not nesserarly. Because you have a personnal view, If you push a game to catter to you and your "QoL" , you may impact the greater mass. For some QoL can litteraly be boss mods. Making more clear what the boss will do, sound alert for visual impaired and whatnot.
@@ereder1476 "Because you have a personnal view, If you push a game to catter to you and your "QoL" , you may impact the greater mass." In the context of FFXIV, this is basically nonsense. No one using addons is pushing the game to do anything. They just want to be left alone. People have already given up hope on SE ever improving the UI. Literally no one cares as long as they can get their QoL fixes elsewhere. QoL and cosmetic addons only affect you. Even if you installed NSFW mods, all it changes is what you see. If you made icons bigger, showed buff timers, all it changes is what you see. It doesn't and will never affect the wider community. You're conflating QoL and UI addons with other more egregious ones. They're different. If you can't tell the difference you probably should get to endgame first before joining the discussion. The only people pushing SE to do anything are the horde of casuals crying about addons and things being unfair, to the point that Yoshi P had to make a statement. The same bored toxic casuals who are carrying out witch hunts and mass reporting streamers. It'd be different if they're World First proggers. But the World First proggers aren't even complaining. No one with a brain will ever say that the reason they're not World First is because they didn't use the same addons. "Making more clear what the boss will do" - If you can't see the giant telegraphed circles/boxes in FFXIV without addons, you'd have to be visually impaired. In most cases, the reason you fail mechanics in FFXIV is 1) you don't know/understand the mechanics 2) you need more practice 3) you're garbo. If you have trouble seeing them, go get your eyes checked. "sound alert for visual impaired" - Heard of voice chat? People calling out mechanics in a voice chat? Discord? Teamspeak? Being part of a regular static? That's literally a sound alert. Seriously doubt you did any raiding outside PF, assuming you even play the game.
@@doryfishie2 can you remake that comment without being disingenious? ie: equaling callout from another player equal to an automatic sound alesrt from a bot ? But seeing your selfrighteous and condensending tone (ie: second paragraph) i guess you can't ..
My stance is and always will be, if the add on trivializes the mechanics of an encounter then it is bad, otherwise all should be fair play. Not big on Damage Meters because I've seen their effects in both ffxiv and WoW so I would rather they don't exist but that's more personal than anything.
Imagine having dps checks and no way to check your team's dps to find out why youre not making the check. Sounds completely stupid to me. There is nothing wrong with dps meters, just dont openly harass people... be a decent human being, why is this so hard?
@@heiral7773 because there's a depressingly high percentage of assholes among the general population and it only takes a few to turn the whole thing toxic and, quite honestly, among the ultra-sweaty super-serious gamers who will primarily be using such tools, that percentage of assholes is waaaaay higher than normal anyway. It's why you will never find a competitive gamer scene you actually want you kids to be a part of, it's dominated largely by the assholes
@@heiral7773 so every boss in FF and wow and FFXIV I downed (Wrath-warlords in wow and since launch in ff) without those and with my guilds and FCs not having damage meters isn't possible? Needing this is just a justification you give yourself, dps check bosses are there to help you see if you have enough damage or not as a group, the number itself doesn't matter
@@michaelsharaiha "Needing this is just a justification you give yourself"... People using dps meters just as much to improve their gameplay. Playing without is a great way to tell yourself you are playing well, even if you are heavily underperforming.
@@lade3468 I'm saying that saying DPS meters are important for DPS checks on bosses is self justification, you don't need it there. If you are using the meter for yourself on bosses or dummies then it gets the same treatment as any other mod.
I played WoW from launch through MoP with all the add-ons I could get my hands on, and I played FFXIV from ARR's launch to present with no add-ons. The latter is so much better to me, aside from no chat bubbles and a housing / apartment system that doesn't allow coordinate precision. Side note: 2:50 "Vocal notifications" are not simple, they are often using data to tell you about a mechanic before it starts being telegraphed to players. It's quite obviously cheating.
Your hair looks excellent, Mike! Plus, I've got my damage meters, UI stuff, etc., but I hate that I need them. I feel blocked off from content because of the insane quantity of addons, and I have always been terrified of Logs because I'm worried that if I mess up, or don't accrue high enough Logs that I'll have a stain on my character. Further, if I don't have Logs, I can't get into a raid group to get them easily. I know there are ways to get around this, for sure, I'm aware I don't see the whole picture. However, the fact that I feel this way at all, and can't just let my in-game results be enough, and that I have to maintain this 3rd party record is the biggest turn off for me. I just wanna login and play, man. I don't wanna have to curate my Logs, and stress over not parsing purple or blue.
Addons for me have always been about tweaking the imperfections of a game. As an example wow's UI customization has been terrible for a long time, addons let me better customize my ui, FFXIV doesnt support mouse over casts by default (yes macros exist but those come with a whole host of issues) so I use an addon to allow me to mouse over cast. I've never been a huge fan of automation addons, stuff that automates your leveling experience, or your raiding experience, or whatever else, as I feel those take away from the game rather than add on to it.
I use ACT. I'm colorblind, and recently, between Fatebreaker and Phoinix, there's been some mechanics where I literally cannot see what is going on in the fight. So, I have Cactbot set up to be as non-invasive as possible but so that if there's a mechanic I literally cannot see, I can still have a chance of figuring out which version of the mechanic it is (Light vs Fire, big fireball vs many smaller ones), because otherwise, I'd be forced to rely on communication of others to be able to respond to mechanics. Yes, it's against the ToS. But, their colorblind settings are terrible (it applies a filter to the entire screen, meaning similar colors are still going to be similar, and trying to figure out what specific balance of the screen filters means I can see this particular mechanic is not something I think anyone would expect someone else to go through), so I made my own way to get accessibility until they fix their own accessibility features.
Just to inform that, this things is always happened every time there is a big race in the game. The reason square Enix stand on no addons whatsoever that interact with the game is because FFXIV is cross platform game, player in PS4/5 can't have the benefits of PC player does and this is automatically become unfair advantage to console. But giving a suggestion to add this system from the addons that improve QoL like chat bubble, buff timer on party list, and difference of magic and physical dmg numbers can be considered. Ff14 had their big CD numbers before but for some unknown reason they downscale the CD number to the size of ants.
Being left handed, and playing with mouse on left, and the ten key for my action bar, Bartender, and that 3x4 configuration to match the ten key is vital.
Between the two options I prefer by far a strict no addons policy, although things like accessibility, chat bubbles, gshade, hrothgar hats and hair enablers, etc. obviously don't bother me and should be in-game in the first place so whatever. Also, I'm against DPS meters in general, but I think attacking a striking dummy or entering a Stone, Sky and Sea instance should pop one. I personally couldn't care less what color my parse is on fflogs (a clear is a clear) but it doesn't mean I want to be a deadweight or "carried" in a party. If I'm performing so badly that I'm consistently forcing others to compensate, I want to know and I want in-game tools to help me get better.
They technically have chat bubbles in ffxiv already, some npcs in the open world or in certain duties have them. So they wouldn't have to make them from scratch i would think. Hopefully they can make it available for players eventually.
I'm concerned that chat bubbles won't be considered a priority. Mike only started playing XIV recently so that can make it seem like the devs respond to players quickly, but XIV is not a new game, it's over 8 years old. People have been asking for these features for a long time so if they're not implemented by now, they are likely to still be a long way away, if they ever come at all. Yoshida's post on addons specifically says that the stuff they will look at implementing is related to areas that players feel are insufficient for clearing high-end content, so I feel like they might prioritize combat UI stuff over chat bubbles.
I really hope ffxiv adds chat bubbles. Npcs have them so they can do them. It’s one of those Qol things that need to happen. Have them able to be turned off ofc though. Also well the TOS is the TOS witchhunts are one of the dumbest things ever. Hopefully this dies down soon enough and we can return to some sense of normalcy. That one add on that showed area of effects for attacks that are visual based though was bs and should definitely get people banned.
I'm just pro modding and customization in general, and have been for years. Whether it's customizing my Skyrim install with 139 plugins, add-ons in MMOs, and even some degree of development and bugfixing (I still need to share my fixed MSBT for 3.3.5 lol)
I personally hate Addons, and way back in TBC I helped design a RP Addon that had almost a million downloads. I personally want chat bubbles, Viera hats, and a few Quality of life UI improvements. But what I hate is ACT, and the FFXIV version of DBM. They make the game easier, and can be used for toxic purposes.
For sure it is a complicated issue. I have been playing since ARR Beta and only recently learned about plugins (outside of DPS meters, though I never used them) and even though they are limited, I was shocked to see what they could do. An example is an extension of ACT that told you what the next mechanic would be and guides you how to resolve it. Why I am concerned about that is I am worried about the use of these plugins causing an artificial sense of "the fights need to be harder" and thus creating a huge gap between "casual players" who don't use plugins and the ones that do. People who use the plugins will think the combat is too easy and those that don't will think it is too complex and due to the hidden nature of the plugins (squenix can't detect who is using them) there is no way to tell why certain people are failing objectives vs those that are successful. I desperately want to avoid the paradigm of certain plugins being mandatory, yet being an Elder Scrolls fan, I understand the desire to have freedom of customization outside of what the devs provide.
I had recently started playing WoW a few weeks ago. and was surprised when I asked what the mechanics were to a boss was and the answer my friends gave me was that I should get DBM. because they just followed DBM. honestly I find DBM and GTFO and addons of that sort kind of ruin the point of a fight. it litterally just says "hey, do this" when a mechanic happens. I think the only way WoW can combat this is adding consistency to fights. markers or distinction to attacks that tell the player whats going to happen just be looking and paying attention
you are right that they could just add markers/distinctions like ffxiv has. this would solve the problem of people feeling the need to get those ridiculous add-ons. i did use dbm when i played, & if they implemented markers/distinctions -- & i still even played -- then of course i would get rid of that add-on because id have no need for it anymore.
I'm glad that the topic is at front and center, so devs can be aware of it. Non-combat related stuff, cameras, chat bubbles, housing placement systems.
One of the reasons in WoW for the "need" to have addons that trivialize an encounter is the size of the given raid. Having 20 people coordinated for an extended period of time is a massive increase in difficulty over lets say 8 -10 people. Another aspect to it is that the human mind almost always gravitate towards the path of least resistance, hence addons that make things easier. Be it UI, Chat Bubbles, Action Bars, Cooldown / Buff information addons. There will never be a game that do not have people that want to modify it to their specific liking, because just like in real life we are unique individuals with unique taste. The addon question is not a black or white question, it's a muddied grey area that is basically impossible to make a fit everyone area.
You mentioned having a HUD that looks nice and clean and open. I use the Ring Hotbar addon TPie and it's completely cleared my HUD of all the shortcut hotbars I use because I hate navigating the menus. That's why I love the way the FF14 community takes it's add-ons. They exist for QoL and accessibility reasons and that's the standard that needs to be upheld whether by implementing those type of addons into the game itself or creating methods to monitor approved addons. That or you just shut up and keep quiet about them in game and they just stay out of World's First content all together.
I love FFXIV so much. But I find it absurd that accessability Addons are considered against TOS. If it's not giving you an advantage or being used to alter in-models or harass other players, why ban it? What's the harm in a chat bubble addon? Or color-blind addons for people who are colorblind? FFXIV is notoriously bad at options for colorblind players from what Mr. Happy has said. I understand console players can't use addons but why punish streamers with accessibility issues or people who want to harmlessly alter their ui to be more comfortable?
I want to start by saying that I agree with you whole-heartedly! The reason they ban accessibility add-ons though is because they take the stance that by allowing ANY add-ons it would result in a slide into where WoW is now with combat add-ons. I can absolutely understand their reasoning, and I can understand why given that stance their hands were forced in the world first streamer situation. But it's still ridiculous that some of these options aren't already in the game--ESPECIALLY the accessibility ones! Yoshi-P has said that they are looking to implement some of the more popular UI add-ons into the base game which is great! But he didn't say which, how many, or when. So it's up to us to keep raising the topic up and keep the pressure on them for base game improvements. Also, this sort of thing happens cyclically in the ff14 community. Give it another week or two and streamers will probably be a-ok using their UI add-ons again as the witch hunts die down.
if they change the ToS to only say 'some add-ons are banned'.... yeah, that just opens up a huge can of worms that they have to constantly stay on top of to make sure every single add-on on the internet has been approved or banned, and this has to be updated with each new version of each add-on because you'd better believe some players will want to argue why it shouldn't be banned anymore. it's far easier to say all add-ons are banned, and give an informal list to the mods about which ones they don't actually care about.
Great video, and I'm glad someone understands the middle ground. I'm seeing far too many go "just break everything" or "just allow everything" and both are wrong. I actually wrote a big post about this a after the ion interview that you should check out. Addon take from an addon author. I'd also love to talk to you on this topic if you want.
As a console player, I never understood the whole add-on/mod sentiment. I was able to clear unreal, savage & ultimate fights (DSR not yet). All the while just playing vanilla FFXIV. I understand the many in the PC player look down on console players. As console players are limiting the upgrade and improvement of the game. How do I know?! Because, even, members in my own FC says this as they agree for they are PC players. Most players, console or PC, could care less as they just enjoy playing the game. But you do have plenty of toxic try-hards who know full well what the rules are but will “rationalize” why they shouldn’t have to follow it. But there are the toxic Yoshi P sycophants who literally take anything Yoshi P & devs say as gospel. Both groups are equally toxic. That toxicity is usually hidden just beneath the overall happy FFXIV community.
I played to max level without addons. When I reached max level I got an addon that sells all gray items on the click of a button and an AH addon, then I got a damage meter, but I'm only using it to check how I myself can improve.
I am a big fan of addons in the sense that it makes it possible for some people to play the game who would have otherwise not been able to... WoW has an addon that enables controller support for those who can't use a keyboard and mouse and even FFXIV has some addons that greatly improve the color blind modes. I really hope they take a good look at those kind of addons and implement those changes in the future... QoL addons are nice and all, but accessibility addons are just a must sometimes!
14:06 ! same, would love to see how they perform after their addons are taking away. To see some real GAMER cred and know the fight like the back of their hand.
This along with Mr. Happy and Zepla have the most reasonable takes I've seen. Totally agree with all three. Addons for FF only become a problem when they either trivialize an encounter or are used, as Preach says, "as a weapon" against other players. As a long term wow player who swapped to FF in the last year I can say that one of the most refreshing things is the lack of widespread DPS meters. Make it so that I don't have to constantly feel like I'm playing an esport when I play with a group and that is a very nice thing. That said, for those who want personal improvement, dps meters can be a useful tool. IMO they should be permitted so long as they are not "visible" or used to abuse other players.
Who cares if they are used as a weapon? If you get called out for low dps, then you have the option to go play with other people. No addons is akin to the "everyone's a winner" culture that this world has embraced. Take responsibility for your actions, and dont blame other people for calling you out for being shit.
I really enjoyed this video. I've drifted away from WoW, so it's been a while since I've seen your content. You seem a lot less stressed than I remember. I look forward to seeing more.
All instances of the word "You" are done in the Royal tense, aka addressing a faceless group and not any individuals. Games are an artistic art form. It's up to it's creators to decide how it is to be enjoyed. If they say they want no Add-ons, that's up to them. If you then sign documentation saying you understand and accept that and then choose to break this contract, you should do so knowing full well what that means for you if you get caught. You signed a contract, be an adult. Accept that there will likely be consequences for your actions. You are entitled to nothing. They made the game, they decide how it is to be played, you signed a contract. If you don't like it there are plenty of really awesome games where the creators allow add-ons/mods. If you go to a game that does not, you breach the contract that you signed and then you whine or throw a public fit about getting banned, that says more about you and less the creators.
My view on the matters comes from my profession as a nurse meeting people with various disabilities every day at work: As long as it's not for competitive content, I don't think programs that help players get through the world the developers build for us is harmful for anyone. For a lot of people it's not a matter of ''do better/read the tooltips/memorize it/react faster'', they literally can't because of circumstances out of their control. I feel the accessibility options some of these programs offer is the major reason why they've not been cracked down on harder before. And that players who really need them to go through normal content are discreet about it.
If I was going to get one thing added into the FFXIV experience, it would be the chat bubbles. I miss having them from other games that I have played and would really love it if it could be a thing that the team brought in.
Totally unrelated to the video...somewhat, but I really want to see that theater in more detail and see if someone has something similar in the Crystal Data Center, because that was simply fantastic!
Minor, inconsequential tweaks like chat bubbles are perfectly fine. Things like weakauras which label parts of the fight clearly shouldn't even be a thing because the game should have some very clear, very concise telegraph telling you what's happening. Anything that effects the gameplay at all should be banned.
agreed, I love WA for buff/debuff/CD tracking and this was first raid I actually had to download a WA for a boss mechanic, we all know the one. I feel like wow is heading into a dangerous direction of requiring WA but I'd still say even right now they're not necessary for all minus that one boss.
Good video and I overall agree but some extra context on the FFXIV side since it isn't just about the devs being afraid it will turn into the WoW situation: A large part of the issue is for bards to be able to play music they need to absolve themselves of copyright infringement which is why you have to say you won't play copyrighted music (even though people will obviously do it anyway). If they openly allowed addons it would hurt that cool little feature that's baseline in the game and even though it happens rarely people do get banned for using the bard mods when they out themselves. The main thing that really forced SE's hand wasn't just DBM but people using AVR on stream during the most recent Ultimate race which was obviously a huge step too far.
I honestly think the best stance is what FF does, for as long as it's possible. Like, I think it's fine if people sneak addons during progression or whatever, I just don't want it to become the mainstream that it would be by endorsement. Honestly this is the serious issue with WoW; anything WF raiders use bleeds down to be mainstream even in pug runs, not as serious but it's still there. That said I think it is also a thing where MMO devs tend to underdesign the UI side of the game, omitting easy non-intrusive options that other games might have, where you just don't get why it's missing. This I really would like to see improved, not just for me but also for as you say, streamers using actually useful and non-intrusive addons. :)
I moved away from mythic raiding in wow cause I was looking through a 3x3 inch box on my screen for to addons and I wasn't engage in the boss, only weak aura and bars
You didn't even mention the most important part of the entire discussion. Almost half of FFXIV's player base is on console.. Without the ability to even access add-ons of any kind. SE has to keep this in mind and make sure the experience is balanced across both pc and console. The fact that raid teams think it's OK to use mods, triggers, etc to compete for a world first completion race while KNOWING they are against TOS and while KNOWING that a large portion of competitors have NO access to these things is ridiculous and completely unfair. People are really crying over the fact that SE is cracking down on this!? It makes complete sense that they would.
I play WoW, I use DBM, details & weak auras for the dreadlord fight & that’s it. For the most part it’s fine & I manage blue and purple parses for the most part, which is fine as I’m a KSM, AotC raider. That being said I don’t heal. I also step away from addons due to massive visual clutter. All that said I’m looking a bit into customizing weak auras for audio queues regarding things like cooldowns. I can’t tell what’s going on with stuff slapped in the middle of my screen, but it would be easier to tell on my shaman running wolf bones when dogs are off CD if I had the game howl or beep at me.
Personally, I think that FFXIV's standpoint on addons is mostly fine for everyday players while WoW is WAY off on the deep end of not fine for everyday players. In FFXIV for example, an everyday player could use things like chat bubbles or the camera improvements or whatever and literally nobody would know, nobody wipes on the raid and then is immediately saying "Hey everyone instead of improving at the mechanic lets trivialize it by installing this weakaura.". You are affected by things like this because it is the negative portion of "streamer privilege". You are streaming your gameplay and everyone can see that you are using them but that is NOT the everyday player experience. Personally I dont think that the rules should be altered with you, asmon, pyro, bell, etc in mind front and center. WoW on the other hand is WAY WAY WAY on the other hand and is affecting literally everyone that engages with the end game portion of the game. It isnt just UI improvements or AH improvements. The combat addons have to go. If that breaks auctionator along the way sucks to suck. You are expected to have DBM, and MRT, damage meters, logs, weakauras with multiple auras already installed before even walking into the raid/M+/PvP (I know pvp has their own addons outside of what I listed I just dont know them cause I suck and dont do it). If your raid wipes some asshat will look for a WA that will immediately make whatever you all just wiped to a thing of the past. But just as players have gotten to reliant on add ons in WoW so have the dev team. Can someone tell me why the tank has to have an addon in a M+ run that announces that he is being targeted by a frontal? You see in EVERY OTHER GAME (FFXIV, ESO, GW2, SWTOR, etc) there is just a yellow or pink or some other obnoxiously bright color that says "Hey bro dont stand there or you ded." or even better, if they do telegraph the mechanic it is light blue on a light grey floor or a tiny red whisp blended in with the rest of the player and enemy spells popping off at the time. Why is by a mechanic that can wipe the raid dictated by Johnny hopefully noticing a tiny box at the top right corner of the screen mixed with 10 other small boxes? Yes. I agree there is room for XIV to improve a LITTLE but WoW needs to disable them entirely and see just how bad the game is for both everyday questers and end game pushers. Yes I realize that XIV has logs and damage meters as well. It sucks that you have to sort of tip toe around a player underperforming giving vague statements on how he/she can improve without outright saying what the problem is or you risk getting banned OR instead of tip toeing you just outright kick them because they are doing bad and you have a TIGHT damage check you have to meet to kill the boss.
There's actually one thing that does concern me about the innocent addons like UI enhancements. If people are too happy to use addons to "fix" their various small gripes, then the demand for the devs to actually fix it officially drops. In FFXIV I have addons to control what debuffs I see, individually size up the ones I want to see more, I have additional gauges for some jobs to show more information more conveniently, and so on. I now don't have any will or energy to go to the official forums or elsewhere and in any way voice my wish for these things to be implemented...because I already have them. We basically have to just trust that the devs are keeping their eye on what addons exist and take ideas from them, because I can't see addon usage translating to visible consumer feedback if the consumers are content to fix the problem externally.
It's a difficult subject. On the one hand, I use mods that improve the graphical experience of FFXIV in ways that I would consider absolutely vital to my enjoyment of the game. When the new graphical upgrade happens, I may let those addons go, but that's still a ways down the road. On the other hand, having come from World of Warcraft, I want to scream to the fucking heavens, "Don't bend on this, SE." Add-ons ended up being such a cancer to WoW's design. What started as simple QoL fixes devolved into addons that were necessary to even complete content, and eventually even a way for people to gatekeep you from said content, at their discretion. That's complete shit, and WoW is worse for their existence. So as much as I'd like to stay on the fence about this, I can't: SE needs to enforce their rules. If that means someday I may have to give up my graphical mods, so be it. At least I know graphical enhancements are on the way, and I'll find the patience to wait for them if it means keeping the addon cancer out of FFXIV.
I find it so interesting to hear that you think FFXIV is very strict about third-party tools. As far as I know, they've always had the sorta philosophy of "as long as you're not interfering with other's enjoyment or promoting it in public we won't come looking". It was only recently that they did a couple of high-profile bans spurred by the high visibility of some streamers & mass reports that they couldn't ignore that this whole (non)situation happened. So I am very curious to hear what would be a less strict (ideal?) way to go about third-party tools in your opinion.
couldn't imagine wow without addons anymore, specially being on an RP realm, so RP addons add so much more character customisation and immersion by letting you describe your character so much. I've got Weakauras as well and such, though weakauras for me is to replace my UI rather than encounter specific stuff. e.g. my health bars are weakauras, character power like mana, combo points, soul shards etc... and my hud's for procs as i prefer progress animations that empty out the lower my timer for say my pyroblast proc is, rather than the standard one from blizz themselves. the most intricate weakaura i have, would be the outlaw rogue roll the bones one, to see if I should reroll or not, depending on what my own buffs are. Wouldn't class that under gamebreaking.
I think, in general [all games] the rule of thumbs should be: All non combat, client side modifications to User Interface [UI], Textures or Mode/Mesh should be allowed with the exception to Modifications that trivialize, manipulate or otherwise result in data shown that other players of a base installation do not have. All combat addons should be disabled. How a game functions should be up to the sole discretion of the creators and designers of the product. How it looks [UI], and the User Experience [UX] should be up to the player to tune to their personal preferences. After-all. Keybinding, is a UX feature that most cannot imagine playing without anymore.
I think they're at a point where the code is so massive it would be like taking out a jenga block and that's a coding nightmare. Kinda hope they're just working on WoW 2 with some clean code so they can modify stuff like that on the fly. With the game being this old and most of the original coders gone I'm pretty sure it's hard for them to change anything. Hence no ripcord
I am one of those players of World of Warcraft that doesn't use any kind of addon and I have been playing sense classic was the only version of the game out. I even challenged a fellow guild member to stop using all the addons and they said they can't. they know that their play is better because of the addons. In the past there wasn't a mouse over cast in the game, now there is but I haven't played around with it, and one of the main addons my guild member uses is the mouse over addon. He also uses DBM, which is not as bad as the addons you listed that straight up said do "x" and you would be fine. My guild member said that he would loss DPS if he had to play with no addons at all, this includes UI style addons, which the one he uses helps him keep track of his DoTs so he can DPS easier. As someone that plays with others that use addons I made it clear I don't want anything on my screen that comes from an addon. one examble is when a marker is added over your head, yes you can do this mamually in the game, because a machanic is about to happen to you. Now I know that the user can't stop it from showing up so a few hhave turned that part of the addon off. they get a warning still but nothing is shown. Our main healer even says that it would be harder to heal without the addons they use. I have healed without addons and trying to keep track of everyones health on the side while watching what is going on is hard but not impossible. I wouldn't ask the people I play with to stop using addons anymore but please try and make sure that it doesn't effect my game play I'm trying to have. I have videos out there of me playing without addons. From mythic dungeons, mythic plus included, to tower runs back in Legion. I like FFXIV for their policy of zero addons/plugins. Yes they make is more clear on what about to happen and you have time to react but sometimes with lag you just die even to the simple machanics. I done the dance in Nax back in Wraith when that was the only raid at the time. I died a couple times but on the third run I noticed the pattern and I was able to stay alive. Most of the boss fights have patterns for their bigger attacks or simple things to do, like interupting or getting behind something to break LOS. A feel addons take away from people using their heads to figure out what is going on. The classic Leeroy Jenkins and Oxy fight memes come to mind on what it means to have addons and why they have grown in WoW.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Find someone who looks at you how Mike looks at Chat Bubbles KEKW... So the debate surrounding addons and 3rd party tools rages on both in WoW and FFXIV - some of it reasonable... and some of it not so much.
What's your position on addons?
I have no philosophical objection to addons but if the devs don't want me to use them for the sake of fairness then fine. Not having to worry about addons or mods definitely makes getting into and keeping up with a game less of a hassle, and I think it allows devs more freedom to design challenges if they don't have to account for addons solving them instantly. I don't care what other people do, but I think there's value in having addons not be the norm.
It is unfortunate that harmless stuff which improves the game experience in non-skill based content is a casualty of that policy in XIV, but I get where they are coming from that attempting to define permissible addons is a futile endeavour and people will always find ways to skirt the rules to give themselves advantages. I only hope that Yoshida is true to his word about bringing in popular addon features and that it doesn't take too long. QoL improvements in XIV are consistent but slow. In the meantime, just use addons if you want since it's not like you're gonna get caught unless you're a streamer or youtuber.
FFXIV is playable on PC, Mac, and PlayStation. That means, any addon use is considered cheating. So acknowledge you are cheating if you use addons, because you have access to information that is unavailable to the majority of PlaySation players. And maybe Mac players?
All these hypocrites trying to find any excuse possible to justify why they can cheat. Seriously, don't justify that you were breaking the TOS, just accept that you broke it. And if you don't want to break it, then play the base game. All of the PlayStation players play using the base game, just how hard is it to do that?
Seriously, if you are playing inside a poker tournament with other people, how is it fair that some of those players can use cheat tools to improve their play? It isn't fair. Poker is a poor example granted but it is very similar.
Finally, all players should be on the same equal footing. That means no addons. If this doesn't happen, then all console players become the second hand citizens. There was already post in reddit where Party Finder would only accept people using addons. So no addons is acceptable.
But if you are going to use it, then admit and accept that you are cheating.
So. I've not used any addons to help with boss fights for the duration of Shadowlands. I raid Heroic+early-mid Mythic bosses. There has been a single mechanic I found was 'addon required' territory. (It was the Among-Us mechanic)
There have also been two mechanics where my experience was "I can do this without an add-on, but it could be better broadcast."
Everything else, I've felt it was properly broadcast and gave sufficient time without having an add-on yelling at me.
So basically, I think boss-mod type addons could safely have their functionality cut back a lot. Most other addons are fine, but there are some that cross that line into 'this shouldn't be' territory. Venture Plan changing the appearance of the mission table is fine, Venture plan auto-filling your team to pass the mission seems too much.
I like FF XIV New aproche to says we see what we can do yea it takes a while Till the changes will come but the quality of Life changes in the last Patch is for me and Indikator that they listen and will make the changes and im not sad if we never get dbm or recount I never like them in wow I had recount for wotlk raiding and saw dbm on streams and both I didn't enjoy
@@OakesParker Console players were always second class citizens. Why should the rest of us be forced to bring ourselves down to their level? Imagine if World of Warcraft launched on consoles and Blizzard suddenly decided that all addon usage was against ToS and a bannable offense.
as far as FFXIV goes, it's key to remember the ToS has not changed since it was introduced a decade ago. Addons have always been against it, but it's not applied universally and sometimes they look the other way. The race had too much though and I assume they felt they couldn't not do something. I don't think the team is going to start banning people for accessibility plugins and ui decorations. They gave us an inch, and some tried to take a mile.
Same argument I had with someone else about them months ago. They kept saying Yoshida said they're not against the rule as long as you don't draw too much attention to it, but that made no sense. If it's in the TOS it means they can go after you whenever they want, but have chosen not to because it wasn't causing too many issues.
I continue to use ACT dmg meter (for measure my own more than my teams, it's how I found I was playing black mage entirely wrong lol). I don't stream it or talk about it in-game so I know I won't get banned. Yoshi-P even directly said they aren't going to monitor people's systems to detect addon's and such, which is why I'm so confused people act like the sky is falling
@@Akinon93 People are acting like the sky is falling because people are dramatic. This is basically a fucking yearly conversation in FF and it's always the same parade.
Just don’t show it. That’s really all you have to do. People were showing their addons while streaming. That’s why they got banned. Just don’t show it.
@@Akinon93 i am curious though, which add-ons did the Dragonsong Ultimate world first clear team use that gave the an objective edge in their clear? ACT is a big help for understanding dps data, but i wouldn't say it is actually helping people clear the hardest content in 14
With regards to FF14 banning addons, besides just the philosophical objection of wanting the game to be fair and be played as it's designed, I think there is an element of legal protectionism and paranoia which is common among Japanese companies. They don't want you to mess with their product, and they DEFINITELY don't want to be held responsible for HOW you mess with their product, or what happens to you if you do.
They are not just thinking about situations where someone installs something that trivializes the game. They are thinking about situations where someone installs malware thinking it's an addon, and then blames the company for saying addons are okay. They are thinking about situations where they say mods are okay and then people post their big titty catgirl nudie mods all over twitter with the implication that the company approves of this. They are thinking about situations where someone mods in copyrighted material and the copyright holders decide to hold Square Enix accountable because they allowed it.
Yes. But not to such a great extent as you might think. If this was leading reason, then every game would ban them
You say that, but you can mod FF, replace texture, install post processing programs, pose and many, many more. They outright say that’s against TOS, but did very little to stop that. On the other hand, Blizzard with WoW had blocked almost all of the cracks in the user made space. The target list that FF was blocked by Blizzard because they don’t like how it changes the gameplay. The view distance was taken off the player’s hand. Anything modify game file will get flagged so no model, spell effect replacement. It is true that WoW UI modding is far more advance, but I think that’s due to WoW popularity, rather than FF making it difficult. Sure, the FF team outright disallow addons while WoW only prevents players from having any intellectual right over their addons. Looking at it practically, WoW is much more heavy handed with the entire addons, modding situation. That’s both good and bad, I do appreciate less cheating in WoW, but I would be spending much less time in FF it I weren’t able to mess around with ReShade screen space reflection fake ray tracing settings and picking the best textures.
@@lc9245 It's not about stopping it, it's about absolving themselves of any responsibility. It is the same deal as Bard's Performance action. When you first use Performance there is a box that pops up which makes you PROMISE to NEVER use the feature to play copyrighted music that you do not have the rights to. Guess what people use Performance for.
No one plays anything BUT copyrighted music and no one gets in trouble. But Square Enix is protected because if the rights holders of that music ever got pissy about people playing their stuff in FF14 and decided to go after Square Enix, Square Enix could simply say "it's not our fault, that's against our rules and we made them promise not to do it. We have no culpability here, we just didn't catch them until now." and then ban the player.
Addons are the same deal. If someone uses addons and in so doing fucks up their computer, harms the game's image, or does something illegal, Square Enix's hands are clean. They can simply ban you or tell you to go fuck yourself.
@@lc9245 lol true but just because there are laws doesn't mean no one breaks them, they are just reserving the choice to do something about it. If you ever been to japan you'd know, it's a country with anti-protitution law... but every sector in every city has some form of that on the main street even. This goes across the board with everything there, but guess what they are mostly a law abiding society that's infamous for safety to the point where you leave your wallet accidentally in conbini, chances of you finding it without anything missing in it is extremely high... different society different world different values. Whereas here in the west you know those situations are unrealistic, ppl here don't just like trouble, many goes out of their way to make trouble, troll ppl, hurt others out of boredom even, because we have a much more cruel dynamics than theirs. Their first notion for rules is don't break them and live peacefully, our first notion for limitations and restriction is "you can't stop me! i have rights!"
@@Azural sounds like china style censorship dystopia to me
I hope FF14 will take in a lot of feedback from what people want in add-ons to improve the UI and accessibility options. I've never liked downloading add-ons for WoW and I've really been enjoying FF14 on console. Not having to think about stuff like updating add-ons or worrying about damage meter performance has been so much better. I would love to see chat bubbles added too, it looks so much better than looking at a chat window.
it will NEVER be enouth. just listend to asmongold's interview with a modder.
It's all about being disngenious. Hiding behind claims like "oh but we do it for people who have disabilities that are not takken care off by SE"
SE are the only one who know what is detrimental or not. Because they have a global view. Addons may as well give the abilities to just do everything in one button or play itself for thoses who want to while claiming it because of some disabilities.
the fact that they have manage to make the game be fair and work cross platform shows a lot. We ain't talking about a studio who doesn't try what they put in. releasing half finnished stuff and letting the players QA for free in their stead.
5 years from now, 2 expansions later, they'll let you sometimes have chat bubbles but only in solo instances. My hope after the hrothgar hair is so low its clipping into the floor.
I can't even fathom why they haven't implamented chat bubbles yet. NPCs had speeck bubbles since the launch, but why do we players not have them?
@@jackbordar2727 If I remember correctly, it has to do with the Japanese culture regarding chat bubbles.
@@kaly8329 than let's do the easiest solution. Toggle on/off. Done, problem solved. These who want them get them and those who don't want them won't get it.
I hope they add chat bubbles to the game officially because the Crawler's stage play, one of the greatest player created things I've seen done in the game, would not have been possible without them.
They already have bubbles in game, for some NPC dicussions
@@ghekor Not to the extent players want them.
@@HiddenEvilStudios they’ll be taking player feedback next ffs!
yeah chat bubbles are awesome
@@HiddenEvilStudios actually players do want them , if they didn't it wouldn't be a requested feature or an addon for that matter..
Since FF14 has no official API, it's kind of impossible for the devs to regulate addon usage which makes drawing lines about what is and isn't okay a lot harder since they can't enforce strict boundaries. It would come down to how they worded their rules and I think they fear that any concessions towards allowing addons would quickly get out of their control and could potentially cause problems not just for the game but for the company. Whether they could even implement an API is another matter since the game was never designed with addons in mind like WoW was, they might not even have anyone on staff who could make one.
There are plenty of innocent addons in FF14 but there are also lots of really, really bad ones. Way worse than anything WoW has ever had, because there is no regulation and no anti-cheat. That stuff could cause a huge stink if it ever even got a whiff of addons being "approved for player use". It makes sense that the devs just don't want to deal with the situation when they have so little control over it themselves.
What addons has 14 had that were/are way worse than anything WoW has ever had?
What do you mean by innocent add-ons vs "really, really bad ones"? I'm just looking for clarification as I don't get what you mean
@@DeltaInsanity Stuff like mods which show where untelegraphed mechanics will happen, automatically do your rotation for you, give you permanent sprint, remove all animation lock, make you permanently immune to knockback, let you teleport around like what bots do. Straight up hacks, basically. In PvP there are also addons which can automatically respond to certain situations like auto LB to execute a target, auto target lowest HP enemy, auto Guard/CC when you're being focused, and track information that you can't otherwise see e.g. telling you if a player's guard/purify is on cooldown.
@@VideogamesPang That has pretty much all existed in WoW at some point.
If they wanted they could just make a whitelist of okay addons to use, listing a couple of the most popular widly used addons they have no problem with, and keep everything else in that grey, dont tell, dont show area. I'd see that as a compromise middle ground.
I can't imagine playing WoW these days without addons, but I will say I love how I don't have them in FFXIV. Obviously the encounter design is different, but it is so refreshing to not have to rely on things like dbm and weak aruas. I set my HUD, and that's it. I've no problems with visual/QoL stuff, but I can see the issue SE has. I think we're all praying for chat bubble implementations, though.
This might sound rude, and I don't really mean it that way. But WoW def does not REQUIRE DBM, you rely on it out of habit, which is fine, ofc. I personally, with my vision issues, kinda need them, but before it got this bad, I played smoothly without any DBM-like addons and did just fine, and people do to this day. Just hard to imagine an addon-less game, once you have played for ages with them.
I am in such a boat with FF, now that my vision is as bad as it is, I require addons to be able to play the game, unfortunately. So I am technically always perpetually breaking ToS just to enjoy the game they put out which feels horrible. So I can't imagine FF without addons either, but that's cause I literally cannot, lol.
Small edit / caveat: I've not personally played shadowlands, I did hear some fights are legit designed around having an addon, like amongus phase and such, those, iobviously, are different then what I mean when I say playable without addons, I mostly meant MoP and pre, which was when I played the most.
@@KumaNicol So... You're kind of half right.
If you're making the statement, DBM isn't required to kill a boss in the sense of, without it the boss is literally unkillable, then no of course it isn't, but with how wow is generally designed to work at a mythic progression level raiding with DBM is a terrible idea and you're crippling yourself in a lot of ways people might not think about at first.
Ignoring the obvious mechanical conversation, a lot of fights in Mythic are incredibly tight DPS checks, and having timers to puzzle out how best to sync up and utilize your abilities both offensively and defensively is absolutely invaluable and can be a drastic DPS increase.
As a monk, having a timer for a 30 second knock back allows you to hit transcendence the instant it happens and avoid the knock back and stay on the boss.
Having a timer for a DPS burn phase lets a class like Affliction warlock prestack their dots and go in for a perfect rapture spam window.
Knowing that the boss has 10 seconds until they're going to use an ability you need to hide behind a pillar for allows you to slowly stutterstep cast your way to avoid any lose of DPS compared to having to rush over in a panic because you failed to internally track a timer and losing damage.
Without having a basic timer to see these things, the damage windows in a lot of mythic fights would grow extremely tight for your average mythic guild, and would leave a lot of people feeling frustrated at a lack of transparency with how much the game is demanding of them.
With all the said, is it still doable? Absolutely, though the demand for player performance would increase drastically at a mythic level.
As a healer whom enjoys "high end raiding" in FF, I really disagree.
The lack of being able to see durations of buffs and debuffs on your party members is awful for optimisation. If they refuse to make healing fun during downtime then we will have to make our own fun. For me that's parsing.
@@birgerz360 what are you disagreeing with, that addons arent required?
@@KumaNicol The amongus phase of Lords of Dread did not require that addon (which was broken by Blizzard within a week). The addon that people use now just lets players click a button once they highlight the players that are disguised as dreadlords, and then the players that have the most votes are known to be the real infiltrators. The same thing can be done in voice coms, which we did for the first week kill before the addon was released. The addon that everyone brings up contantly regarding this debate is the one that automatically just instantly highlighted the two players that were the dreadlords and flashed a border around their raid frame so you could just highlight them and attack them. There is a difference between an addon that lets you give visual indicators to the other 19 players, and just automatically solving the thing in less than a second.
I'm of the opinion that everyone draws the line at a different place so a true middle ground is impossible to meet. In saying that it's also the developers job to review criticism and rule breaking to find the root of the issue. Whatever compromises the Developer makes at the end of the day will only appease some people.
Two things I personally don't like.
1. In WoW the competitive PvE race is determined to some degree by a software race external to the game which gives large organizations an advantage.
2. If you develop with addons in mind, you are creating a problem for players to solve external of your game which to me feels like backwards thinking, If you need an addon to reliably find a solution maybe you should rethink the problem.
Yea, wholeheartedly agree with your second point. A boss's design and mechanics should stand on their own. If your mechanics require (or strongly encourage) add-on use to solve, you haven't designed it well
Re: point 2. It's so weird with WoW because Decursive completely minimized many fights in Molten Core (hard to imagine in 2022, but it did), and they made changes to the API to basically prevent that version which allowed Mages, Priests, Druids and Paladins to just spam a single button to automatically cleanse an entire 40 man raid with zero thought. So even as far back as very, very early 2005 they saw how add-ons trivialized their very first piece of Raid content and didn't really do much to stop it. It's an interesting sliding doors moment, if they'd drawn a line in the sand then I wonder how things would be today?
@@andrewshandle much easier raids
The problem with your second point is that designing fights to be possible and more reliably solved without addons would just have the adverse effect of causing the addons to trivialize them even more. FF14 highlights this, since pretty much every fight including the ultimates (can't speak for Dragonsong) are trivialized by the DBM-style Cactbot, since the fights are simpler by default in order to be more doable without addons. The only solution is to do this and then to remove the combat assistance addons in their entirety. That ship sailed forever ago.
@@Mr91Jmay MC was the easiest raid ever, but it was the first time for practically everyone, and just spamming one button too completely bypass the main mechanic in encounters made what was already an easy raid into a trivial raid.
Get rid of add-ons, design encounters that the bosses/room can give you all the cues a player needs to complete it, and you have a much better game.
SE has listed what they priorotize in investigations... I don't think any streamer will ever get directly banned for damage meters or chat bubbles, the problem was things like automated call outs. People forget that the banned players actually got an "I told you so" from his team for streaming with ACT callouts function which is what likely actually got him banned (making the game easier, the very top thing they investigate).
There was some waves of mass reporting streamers. Entitled people that decided to join and report people doing stuff against the ToS. So yes, even chat bubbles could be victim of these people.
Steamers will just hide addons from now on, problem solved (supposedly). Nothing is going to change.
@@MrJesuisOMG Yeah and despite waves of mass reporting I've only heard of two who got banned... both using callout features of addons.
@@cmerk100 Because those were the popular ones in media, but there was more. With hunt is ridiculous, and imo, a way bigger problem than a single dude breaking ToS on stream.
@@MrJesuisOMG My point is, people are making a big deal of brigading, despite the fact brigading only managed to take down two people who violated the very top item they stated they investigate on their list. Nobody else who used ACT for displaying damage and other multitudes of addons including UI changes, chat bubbles and more have received bans. Xeno, Arthars, Pyromancer, Preach and more all not banned or suspended despite using addons and they absolutely have been brigaded too.
As with most things, the sensible position appears to be the middle ground. Most people don't care about QoL/graphics mods. A game whose endgame is almost exclusively intricate dance fights, don't cheat the dance.
That intro knocked it out of the park Mike, more of this please
At the very least, FFXIV will never endorse addons as long as there's a console version. No amount of player outcry will make them budge on this, imo.
I agree. The console version has always hold the PC version back.
@@Henji96 as we are talking about this. I would be glad if SE would finally stop the support of old PC setups that can not even compete with a Basic PS4...
I think it's also a disability issue at play here.
In my over a decade of wow, I met deaf players who used weakauras cause they couldn't hear the raid leader's call, I had people with mental problems and neurodivergent people who just, through no fault of their own, lost focus for q bit and needed sound queues to come back.
All of those people were capable of raiding at the highest level the game had to offer at that time, none of them could have without addons.
They either need to change the game to be as with the boss you mentioned, where the raid leader was obsolete, or they need to keep addons in for people who are capable, but unable to handle the convoluted mess wow makes bosses sometimes.
14 also has to contend with Console players who *can't* use mods. if they want to keep the playing field fair, there's inherently less room for nuance.
The thing is console games *can* and *do* have mods, so if they wanted mods in the game, they could do it.
Mods aside, PC has always had an inherent advantage over console. The playing field was never fair to begin with. There's no way you can get around that. Runs smoother overall, you can have a second monitor, you can use ultra widescreen, mouse and kb has better control over controller, etc. Console players chose to take the L by going console. It's not that expensive or difficult to get a cheap PC to run 14. You don't even need a modern graphics card.
Some add-ons are fine, but ones that figure out the whole encounter/fight gimmick should be removed
this. 100 times this
to be honest there are so many clusterfuck mechanics that you can't see it normally without addons
@@alihorda that is why people are failing and practicing for hundred of hours. i know not all people wanna do it. but theres always other choices to do.
in all seriousness though, try experiencing it without addon. especially with friends or a group that you're enjoy to hang out with, helps 100% !
@@alihorda clusterfuck are not problem, just don't panic, die, repeat and try to slove, you look in the right place you will find answer, mech puzzle always around 'vision' in your game windows, sometime color are little bit messy like P3, but can't see it normally without add-on? nah...
Honestly I agree on this 100%, Idc for UI addons that just change the visuals of healthbars for example.
But something like DBM, Weakauras and whatever addon thats similar to these 2 for Raids and Dungeons need to go. I used it myself and it felt so annoying and all over my screen.
The reason I was forced to wield these addons was due to my guild and other Raid Groups because heaven forbid I learn the game systems with no cheating sort of UI.
When he started talking about using just one single addon, I knew immediately which one it is, and it's honestly surprisingly common for people to get the entire idea of using addons because of the lack of chat bubbles. I use many more addons than just chat bubbles, but I might never have started using them if the game had chat bubbles for players natively.
Perhaps amusingly, it would never have occurred to me that this might be the one, simply because I hate text bubbles and turn them off in every game I play that will let me. For me they completely break immersion, and they obscure that part of the screen I most need to see in a fight.
@@rupertboleyn3885 you're not supposed to be typing during combat anyway, so the addon is for over world content.
There's an interesting discussion about accessibility features for ppl with disabilities being abused for other players to have an easier time or to cheat. You could probably argue from a disability accessibility standpoint that wow is at its strongest right now. This could be effected by any changes made. Any changes made should be paired with more accessibility features added to the base ui/settings.
Having a bit of dev background, I think a middle line could be official in-game addons library, where they are submitted and then checked by dev team, accessible API is managed through “client keys” and addons signing. A little bit more work for game developer to manage it, but also allows “crowdsourcing” component and console support.
And then they have to pay someone to check which mods to allow, and it becomes like WoW lol
Then you'll have drama when something is allowed and something isn't.
Also requires multi language support, a rewrite of game code to allow this to work on both pc and console. Countless work hours policing it where the community becomes angry that it's taking 12 hours for a mod update to be approved, potential legal issues in terms of mod ownership, and people will still use the mods they aren't permitted to use privatly because that hasn't stopped them before.
This solves basically nothing, only allowing benign addons to work with the game at a huge time and investment sink while people are still gonna keep doing what they do anyway.
Don't ask don't tell and certainly don't show is the best middle ground we are going to get.
Apps like JIRA, Teams, or games like DotA 2 use this approach and it works. Moreover people can monetize their plug-ins which incentivizes quick updates.
I’m not saying it’s super easy - it requires investments and upfront architecture and code readiness. But in the end it’s a healthy collaboration between software developers and enthusiasts
I'm vanilla but I would love chat bubbles. Watching your streams with them made me realize how handy and how much they enchance the game. Its definitely the kind of mod I expect to get officiially added because in Yoshi-P we trust. I would imagine that.. going forward whatever gives even the SLIGHTEST aid IN GAME to help clear a fight, its off limits. Yoshi-P was very smart and careful not to name the world first cause he knows it was 'tainted' with these mods. In the past they likely thought it was fine but their stance changed. Discord is fine - it doesn't interact with the game (even though you could make it that it could but thats the difference). Cosmetic mods also completely fine - like the chat bubbles non the wiser knows you have them.
People using discord as an argument in favor of addons is using a really weak argument. There is a clear distinction between a stand alone communication tool, and an IN-GAME addon which requires connection with API for info on boss mechanics etc.
my fave addon in wow is a keybinding addon that lets my bind buttons to a button rather than a spellbar so i can place abilities wherever i want on said spellbar and its binds are unique to each class/spec, having to use the same keybinds on all classes in xiv is frustrating to no end. i dont mind not having addons in xiv but some elements do need some work after so long
Workaround idea since I was doing it that way: extra cooldown bars. Keybound hotbars are hidden via macro
My biggest problem with WoW addons is that Blizzard haven't just created some sort of steam workshop equivalent to download them through.
like how in Factorio there's a mod browser so you can download mods from within the base game
The thing with "there has to be a middle ground" argument is that it not like as if the situation is a clear cut left, right and center. That center/ middle ground is still wide and will still be hard to have a definite point where to draw the line specially when it's 3rd party stuff we are talking about. Without giving a suggestion that gives a definite, complete and clear cut border on as to where and how much an add on can function (not counting the tasks of monitoring and keeping these addons in check being they are 3rd party softwares) SQEX will always maintain that generalize blanket stance on no addons both for sanity and legality's sake. Chat bubbles? Better UI? Those things can and should be tackled on the suggestions section for future in game improvements, devoid of the addons argument. You said it yourself, even a simple, supposedly innocent addon can be taken too far (case in point are those mods that went too far with changing looks and went into lewd territory already). I know people love their QOL addons and its understandable, in fact SQEX has always, always been lenient when it comes to usage of this things (even dps meters) as long as A. For personal use only B. Never discussed or advertised. I understand content creators will take a hit specially on B but SQEX has to make a stand and content creators do have the responsibility to abide with the TOS of the game. We have to remember anyway that the reason addons have been an issue lately is more so because of game mechanics related add ons (similar to the one in wow showed here by preach and basically any other addons that give more information about the mechanics way more than what was intended by the developers). One can clearly see from Yoshi P's post that it was their main issue specifically (even have a specific bullet point about it and even mentioned not releasing content they havent cleared themselves without addons obviously). So just steer clear of these types of addons and just keep on suggesting those in game UI improvements. As for QOL addons? If you are using them alreadt then continue again as long as you keep it personal and never shared (sorry preach, i guess you can just enjoy chat bubbles during off stream gameplay).
A significant point that's being overlooked in this debate is the fact a large portion of the playerbase is on console. If I recall correctly, the majority of Japanese players are on the PS4 and 5, PC gaming is not as big in Japan as it is in the West. They cannot install any addons at all and there is a serious concern for Yoshida about the kind of unfair advantage this would inevitably create, the worst case scenario being the rest of the playerbase excluding console players from content (there is a small precedent for this: back before the network improvements in ARR, console players were often being kicked from Titan HM parties because the lag on mechanics made it so avoiding them was much harder for console players.) At the end of the day Square Enix is a Japanese company, so for better or worse the feedback of Japanese players will always be the first they receive and take on board, and this has been apparent throughout the game's development (majority of liveletter questions have been from the JP community, for example.)
I personally have no issue with any non-combat addons, I use a number of them myself and would be saddened if they decided to pro-actively start banning all of them, but I understand their position. Here's hoping this spurs them to implement the UI mods like chat bubbles into the game proper like Yoshida said, even if I don't use them myself!
Even in Europe a lot of people play on console. Most people in my static and even my FC are on PS4. The FC I'm in also has people from a lot of many places. Yeah there's a bunch of people from various European countries but then there's also a few Russians and people from South Africa.
Additionally GPU prices have been extremely inflated until recently so most people simply can't play on PC because they don't have one powerful enough
Preach: 60% of WoW screen is covered in Addons.LazyPeon: WoW has the best minimalistic clean UI. Me: U wot mate? Have you seen this shiz?
I'm a console player so I can't use add one anyway but the add one I find myself envious of are things like gshade, chat bubbles and other UI stuff, I'm not interested in anything that makes encounters easier because half the fun of ff14 is learning the fights and optimising your uptime around the mechanics. I haven't tackled any ultimates yet but I have done extremes with nothing more than practicing until I've learned the fights and have done savage with discord for voice chat. I don't think add one that make combat easier are necessary but there are UI tweaks I can agree with. Luckily they've said they will look into adding official versions of UI mods into the game.
Im the exact same minus current savage clear but the chat bubbles looked so cool and immersive here's hoping that add it at some point
the beginning was-- [chef's kiss] m'wah.
must've taken a month. idk i've never edited a clip that extensively
to this day, I don't get what the "Floor Inspector" meme is from, and yet I still find it fucking hilarious
In regards to addons, I think non-combat related addons should be fine. I'd prefer they incorporate it into the main UI as I *really* didn't like having to manage addons in WoW and I am one of 3 people who actually really likes the FFXIV UI, but I also realize that itself is a glacial process and unrealistic.
Whats going on in WoW right now is the logical end destination of what happens when you don't have guardrails or restrictions on combat addons in games like these and I absolutely do not want to see FFXIV come within a 1000 miles of that place.
@@AR15andGOD Are you ok?
@@AR15andGOD You realize that having addons that make things easier is dumbing down the game right? lol
@@AR15andGOD Look at this sad little example of the WoW community as a whole, claims they don't want other people dumbing down their game while using addons that practically tells them how to play properly. Literally like a child proudly speeding around on their bike with stabilizers, helmet, kneepads, elbow pads, satnav, harness, recovery team and claiming they are amazing. Bless your little cotton socks, the game is still bad and you know it.
@@omegaxtrigun How is having boss timer information "dumbing down the game"? All they mentioned is damage meters and something like DBM's timers-- those have never been the problem that break fights despite almost always have existing in some form.
If it's "good players would just use a timer and memorize all of the timings!" Then no, that's not being a better player, that's just a having a worse quality of life for people who can do the mechanics regardless and giving raiders more mental labor as opposed to spending their attention coordinating inside of the fight itself. Or, more likely, they'd just make the raid leaders do it-- kinda like what already happens...
I'd agree with almost anyone saying that in-combat weakauras (read: Not UI-based ones like spell timers and CDs, but things that handle boss mechanics) dumb down the game, but I doubt most people would disagree with that.
People who think all combat addons should be disabled are fucking jokes though and probably don't even raid at a decent level in the game they pretend is stupidly easy because of addons.
@@sere971 dbm timers are dumbing down the game. You're supposed to have to know the fight yourself. Not have some addon tell you when things are happening.
"If it's "good players would just use a timer and memorize all of the timings!" Then no, that's not being a better player"
How is knowing the fight better not being a better player? What? lol. Knowing the fight is supposed to be a part of the difficulty of coordinating it.
There should be no reason to have combat addons in any mmo. If something is too cumbersome to manage without them, then that's the devs fault and they should fix it.
Blizzard has designed themselves into a corner with them for too long. They let addons pigeon hole them design wise with boss encounters, while simultaneously letting them be lazy with things like ui because the players will just fix it for them.
personally i agree that there is a balance to be had mods that give you no game play advantage but improve small areas of the game such as chat bubbles, filters for screenshots or hats for viera are things that I hope get added into the game as we move towards 7.0 but in the mean time i can understand why people will want to continue to use these to improve their experience there is definately needs to be more to the discussion than just mods good / mods bad as the answer lies somewhere in between.
The first MMO raid I had ever done was Gruul, and when my guild beat it for the 1st time, my thought at the time was, "I want to try fighting him without DBM." There was another time when I overheard a conversation between two other people about another raid (can't remember which) where they were saying how the raid is easy, my thoughts that I wanted to say to them were, "Then why not turn off DBM to give yourselves more of a challenge?"
The issue with addons to help with the boss fight is that part of the game is to learn and memorize the mechanics. Think of it this way; playing a game of pairs while writing down on paper what you found while playing. While some would see it as a clever way to help win, others would see it as cheating because it goes against the whole point of the game: to memorize what you found and match the pairs with the least amount of mistakes made.
My personal perspective on the situation is keeping the definition of what a game is in mind; 'A challenge based on a set of rules for amusement, enjoyment and entertainment.' If there are elements in the game that is counterproductive to me rising up to the challenge, then it's on the devs to fix it, however, if the issue is that I'm simply not up to the challenge, then it's on me to make a decision: Either improve on what is keeping me from succeeding or call it quits.
Imagine playing Counter Strike and using an "Add-on" that lets me see where every player is? ;)
I say that a bit tongue in cheek, but some of the addons approach that in how they trivialize content (although maybe not as game breaking as a wall hack, but I digress). As always, the rule is "this is why we can't have nice things", because if there is any way to get an advantage, people will take it...and once you hit a stage where enough of the population uses those advantages, you have no choice but to use it yourself or you can't participate.
@@andrewshandle as always the NA crowd compares apples to oranges
@@Freestyle80 just saying "apples to oranges" isn't _actually_ contributing to the conversation.
You're giving Blizzard wayyy too much leeway in this argument imo. Why can't they make the Jailor have unique animations for each of his attacks? Why cant they have standardized raid markers for similar mechanics? I blame Blizzard for essentially outsourcing the game design and UX to the addon makers instead of actually doing a decent job designing a good and understandable boss encounter. If they were able to step up their game, then addons would no longer be necessary, its a crutch, not a necessity.
they can't do it because they're a multi dollar company. if they actually fund the games how else will the ceos who do nothing get their paycheck bonus that's bigger than the rest of the staff combine?
Too much for an indie company.
Tbh I was wondering about this too. How is it that bosses back in the day had much visually cooler and visible mechanics? If I look at the Jailer fight, I dont see anything cool, I dont feel like we are fighting the ultimate threat, hes literally just standing there doing auto attack animations, and all of the mechanics happen off screen and you need 40 weak auras to see it, like why? Make the boss do something at least.
That would mean Blizzard know how to make a good game.
@@fraud291 take my goddamn like!
One big thing with Square is they are doing the most protective policy possible for them. One of the main issues with 3rd party tools is the legality and what some people do to characters in this game. There are various adult mods for this game, and various characters which are not over the age of 18. And combining those two things would make the game very very excessively illegal in a fair few countries. That is why even out of combat mods are not allowed by ToS.
the production quality is perfection. should've watched this in IMAX
I used to raid in a world top 30 guild from mop through nighthold and I always found it sad that even at that level that everything was pretty much figured out for us before we ever got to a boss. Full boss mods and weak aura suites all set up to make the most difficult content as easy as possible. Which to me completely undercuts the entire point.
I feel like having all these addons effectively playing the game for you cheapens the experience by a ton and requires less skill out of everyone. So blizzard has to design more punishing as opposed to challenging mechanics to make up for it. And punishing fights just aren't fun design.
I'm in agreement with this. If you were to go into a room of WoW players and tell them you want to do a fight blind to experience it and figure it out, you would be looked at like a crazy person, but I do honestly think it is more fun to figure out the fight and what works and what doesn't than to just have DBM tell me "BEWARE" and do the callouts perfectly with the path already set before you.
You would probably see some more consistent shifts in the meta, as well, since people have to figure out more for themselves what is working and what isn't for them rather than just following a website. It would not be a major change, but it would be a bit more fluid. (Though this would also rely on Blizzard not making so many freaking trap options or obvious quality-of-like picks in the talent tree that make a class not a migraine to play.)
Ya and people have these and still can’t do the fight…..
Seeing Preach & the crawlers going through Amarot was all the convincing I needed to know that Chat Bubbles NEED to be in the game. Soon Pleeeeeeeeeease!
Combat addons are the ones of concern. I don't like them. Fights should be designed with clear communication from the encounter to the player. No blue balls on blue floor on blue void zones. I played the game without any combat addons from 4.3 to 6.2. 6.2 broke this streak. I needed addons for mythic HFC. These fights were not doable without them.
Other addons such as custom UI's, auction addons, quest addons, automation addons (leatrix), item management addons, atlas loot, altoholic etc - these are fine.
I couldn't agree with you more. Combat mechanics should be explicit. If pe need to download third party programs to beat a boss, it's a failure of game design.
And the problem that people seem to skirt around is Blizz are now designing these fights with addons in mind, if they kept the raids as they are today and somehow stopped everyone using addons and weakauras tomorrow the raid scene would be decimated. Instead of controlling the use of addons and their impact they opted to make content harder and more finicky. It is why when classic launched people blazed through the raids because we have become accustomed to playing like machines just to phase properly, it became about the devs beating the addons and world first players more than making a fun engaging and REWARDING raiding experience. Sad really.
Old school runescape has started promoting a 3rd party client on the website since it provides a boatload of QoL plugins(including an HD mode). And they're slowly but surely incorperating those plugins into their main client. There's been some bad blood between the client and the game devs, but its nice they're getting to the point where they're doing more than tolerating eachother
FFXIV will have the "give an inch take a mile" situation which is why I don't think they should allow any and im pretty sure its the reason they dont want to deal with it.
I've been playing since ARR, and I've only ever used one additional thing since; ACT, and that's it. I dont talk about using it in game, and I only use it to see MY dps, and help me see where I've messed up, and how I can improve
These are great points. One suggestion, if you aren’t already…. turn on Japanese subtitles. I remember Yoshi P asking English speaking content creators to add them so they can watch and understand.
solid position, Mike. I agree with your take. UI? QoL? sure. mechanic nullifiers? no.
Insane vocal minority that went on a witch hunt. 14 UI is passable but not great and they know it. Hopefully see some additions soon.
I agree with no battle add on for 14 and I would like to see wow slowly move away from them if possible.
I can't stand the toxicity that gets created around DPS meters. I really want developers to come up with a unique solution to having something in game that allows the player to get better with their class/ability.
A little late to this video, but SE did actually kind of do this, with 6.3 dropping in like 2 weeks they are going to be adding timers for buffs/debuffs for the party in the party list so you can look and see how long a party member has on a buff or help if they have a debuff for some mechanics. Which until now was not in the game.
There's certain addons that I think should probably make their way into the main game (like chat bubbles being an option), but the issue is that without an anticheat in the game, Yoship only has so many options with how to deal with it, and the community's consistently ignored his "just play nice and don't cheat" pleading for years now as they lean more and more into the kinds of gameplay advantage UI mods that exist. So, his hand's been forced because he can't officially give the OK to any one addon since they're all against ToS.
If I had the choice to deal with a nuclear option banning of all addons, or a game that eventually becomes WoW DBM (or worse), I'd take the nuclear option in a heartbeat.
People mistake lenience for approval. No one was getting banned, so they thought it was okay. But the devs were just looking the other way as a kindness. Once the spotlight was put on the tools, they had no choice but to enforce their policy.
@@VideogamesPang It wasn't a spotlight, it was mass reporting. The only people who got suspended was mass reported. Without the mass reporting, nothing would've happened.
@@Henji96 XIV has no automatic suspension system based on number of reports, all reports are reviewed by humans. There are also plenty of people who we know have been report brigaded and were not banned. We could speculate that they wouldn't have been banned if no one had reported them, but given there were reports I don't think it matters whether it was 1000 or 1. The evidence was in full public view, and the only people who were banned were doing literally exactly specifically the number 1 thing Yoshida said they prioritize for investigation in their post which was using addons to make content easier. Ultimately SE are the ones handing down bans, not the reporters.
@@VideogamesPang thank you for the breath of sanity. people acting like this is a crisis and "witch hunts" when it's literally a matter of "is this person blatantly using illegal addons in a public enough space where the devs can 100% verify the addons are being used by that specific person?" Suspension if yes, if not verifiable nothing happens. Sheesh.
This really makes the “give them an inch they take a mile” saying quite strong
Great video Preach. I’ve watched it 3 different times the first with you. Hopefully we get chat bubbles
Hey Mike, loved the video, and I hope everything is ok on the homefront. I do find it telling that Holandris, of the few boss fights where an addon is of little use, was one of, if not the most interesting part of the most recent WoW RWF. It's where a lot of guilds were given the opportunity to close the gap, and, at least in my mind, shows how limiting DBM effectiveness made for a more interesting race.
I saw a lot of people giving the FFXIV grief for not immediately congratulating Neverland on the world first clear, but I think the recent crackdown highlights why. They make what is considered the hardest fight in FFXIV so far, groups start to clear it, and their kill videos are loaded with ToS violations. You can clearly hear the audio callouts of mechanics. That puts the devs in a really awkward spot because validating their clears would also be a tacit endorsement of the methods they used to accomplish those clears. Its a really delicate situation.
The thing about dbm etc if they abolished it they would have to totally redesign disc priests abs prob resto druids who need to know timers
@@daketh4572 Yes, they would. So there's a slight problem in the way WOW designs specs because it's very apparent that they've been designed with DBM and WA in mind.
This is somewhat disastrous to me because it means that the WOW devs are literally outsourcing their UI development to guys like Adam, and God only knows what happen if they're forced to quit (remember when Adam said that his PC could no longer keep up with WOW and that updates to DBM would be slowing down as a result? Blizzard sent him a new computer.), don't want to play anymore, or author existence failure kicks in.
That being said, the base UI can and should be better. Like if a spec is dependent on timers, the devs should work on the visuals to reflect that. One of the things that irritates me about FFXIV *and* WOW is certain buffs and debuffs are just mixed in with other buffs and debuffs when they're really, really important. Neither game has the customizability to let the player pick what buff icons should be noticeably larger (or smaller) than others...but addons can do that (nice!), and if addons can do that...then they can do so much more (nuuu).
@@zenspeed404 It would be more than just re-designing how a few specs work, it would require re-defining how combat in general works in world of warcraft. Melee have a 1s GCD in WoW, 1.5s for casters. Damage from bosses comes in large chunks which need to be prepared for by healers a good 20s beforehand (and note: this is not 20s before when their CD is up, but 20s before the mechanic, as WoW tends to hold some CDs for certain points).
Moreover, WoW bosses are only, at best, semi-scripted. Most of them work on a priority queue. Something that happened at 30s the pull before might happen at 35s the next pull or as early as 20s the pull after. You'd have to redo bosses to be on a strict script, like FFXIV bosses are, before you could even consider getting rid of addons. WoW's gameplay is much more fast-paced and reactive, whereas FFXIV is pro-active and planned.
I think another thing to consider in these kinds of situations is what will the typical, casual or newer player want to do as well. In most of my experiences on WoW, I've only used DBM and damage meters like Recount so I can keep a better eye on myself and concentrate on my rotation... BUT one thing I actively dislike is constantly worrying about my damage output, which is precisely what damage meters make me do. Or the fact that they can be used as a weapon in a sense. My favorite fights in World of Warcraft tend to be the ones that favor the player paying attention to mechanics, as I always found those the most fun.
I think a problem with things like DBM is that it can kinda take away that "mystery" in a fight when you're completely new to it and don't know what to expect. Gone are the days when you and your friends needed to theorycraft how to tackle the boss - now it's become "watch the vid on how to do the fight" instead of figuring it out for yourself.
As for things like WeakAuras, I hold similar feelings towards them, except I've basically never used them and don't really know how to use them all that much tbh. I generally dislike addons that make the UI ugly and overbearing. I'm one of those WoW players that tried to keep the ui as vanilla as possible, with DBM being the only real exception. (I prefer the vanilla ui so much that I'm hoping there's going to be an addon that replaces the upcoming Dragonflight ui with a more vanilla version, because I think the OG Warcraft design simply looks more interesting).
I don't think addons should be banned though, ever. It would be great if things like DBM or other combat addons weren't so heavily used, but at the same time I don't want to lose neat addons that are harmless such as ones that convey more information about your character to you (i.e. DejaCharacterStats) or ones that give your UI a completely different look (i.e. GW2 UI).
Definitely feel you on the chat bubbles... To me it makes the world feel more alive, and I've always wondered why NPCs have them but players aren't able to use them in an official capacity. Of course, I realize not everyone likes them, which is why if they were to be implemented, I'd prefer them to have an on-off toggle.
I nearly wiped an early dungeon group on my FFXIV free account. I was hitting a turtle boss when I shouldn't be (didn't read the instructions) and had no clue player text did not appear above the characters.
Edit: Not blaming the game for my mistakes. I would just like an option to have text bubbles if only in groups.
I'm really curious, how developed is the addon-free wow boss telegraphing language?
The biggest problem with addons is if you give people an inch they tend to take it a mile.
Wait, I was a paladin in the video of Sindragosa he used - good old Royal Vanguard on Dragonblight! I had to do a double take as I remembered a gnome mage called Mirko and suddenly realised! Thats a blast from the past, didn't expect to see that today!
I’m generally fine with add-ons that improve the HUD and general QoL. It should be obvious which ones these are. If you want some bigger fonts or message boxes, improved lighting, or something like glamaholic, then why not.
That being said, the line exists where the add-ons interact with the core content of the game. The parts where the most effort is demanded of the players. In FFXIV, this is combat. Therefore, add-ons which tell you what to do during a fight, feed you information about party member cooldowns, or show you splash zones for attacks that don’t have them - and of course the damage meters - all cross the line of changing how the game is played in a drastic way. When this happens, it is not unreasonable for the Devs to feel the need to drop the hammer and enforce the rules that they put in place a decade ago.
Housing is also very involved. This isn't a gotcha btw, this is just me saying that a housing addon that allows you to place items anywhere in your house crosses the same line you noted, just not in a combat setting
@@antarath517 Full fair. I apologize for not mentioning housing, as I am not really that far involved in that culture, so the thought just wen by me.
My only concern with housing placement add-ons is that apparently people placing items out of bounds causes some server strain, but once again I am not too familiar with the subject to speak on it.
If it is untrue, then yes, these add-ons are harmless and advocating for them would be understandable, as housing is not one of the "priority" systems, and it all it is achieving is a purely cosmetic function, with no material no competitive advantage.
@@GambeTama Housing can be a competitive field though, that's why I bring it up.
Is it fair that someone who put in 5 hours to alter the positioning of their housing items should have their work trivialized by an addon?
@@antarath517 Again, fair point. But by "competitive" I meant something that has certain restrictions and conditions set to it. Competitive housing is a more subjective matter, but I can say it like this:
Whether or not housing add-ons are a grey area, there is a definite difference between meddling with the game so you can place a bed on the wall at an odd angle, and claiming that you deserve to be called a Heaven's Legend while your computer auto-piloted you through the fight.
Only 3-4% of all FFXIV players do ultimate. In the same way i'd say a similar present is folks who spend a lot of time working on house. I'd say both things get as much player attention (night club, housing competition, twitter post reddits, twitch streams).
Both contents are equally niche, and many addons provide: 1. and out sized advantage, even more different HUDs can cause an advantage over the base game. 2. Act as a barrier to entry for others who are interested in engaging in this content.
I think some add-on are cool, but as the line is blurry and it is rediculously difficult for FFXIV to police the use of all add-ons. I think all addons should be banned.
THis said as some addon could be cool. I think square already ahs in place a great system for allowing the addition of some add on functionality. Square frequently holds competition to add different weapon glams and concepts to the game. In this say way they could hold an "addon" competition. Where addon devs can get thier ideas for UI improvements gpose functionality added into the base game.
I have only used Dominos. It is an action bar add-on.
I've healed without healing add-ons untill Cataclysm or was it Mists? I used F1 till F5 to switch party members. Untill blizzard designed their difficulty around those add-ons and F1/F5 wasn't manageable anymore.
I kind of agree with square. The game and devs already do their best to ensure that every game can be beaten without addons. It is impossible for them to police every addon to decide which is good or not. I don't want ff14 to be another WOW because its always a slippery slope. The responsible thing to do is to make a discord or community that deals with this and contacts the devs. The devs are responsive to feedback so I don't see why they would ignore quality of life feedbacks from the players.
It isn't a slippery slope at all. It's black and white. WoW devs balance content around the assumption that everyone is using addons. Literally just don't do that and everything is fine.
@@mosley3485 easier said than done. It's all about the company culture. It's better to set the standards. Wow did not become what it is overnight. The addons were not as bad at first and gradually became so persistent.
It's also not fair for others. Say you are a guild that wants to get a world first clear and you lose to a guild using combat addons. That encourages you to get them too. Eventually every guild has them and now they have to make better addons. Console Ayers don't use addons so it is basically impossible for them to ever get a world first
i dont get the no dps meter ...
so i can not tell if i personally perform how i should.
also if were a raidlead.. i will never see if some absolutly under performs...
lets say just do 15% of what they could do...
Add-ons always exist because the game itself is lacking something, even for a small subset of people. Usually QOL or customization.
Whenever possible, devs should look at what popular add-ons are being made for their games, because they often show what might be lacking in their game and development of said game.
Most people I see using mods in FF14 are purely cosmetic or UI/UX related, telling me people want more options for cosmetics and character customization and more QOL for their UI.
WoW is like 90% UI add-ons, because blizzard has refused to actually improve upon their base UI and experience outside of very small changes per expansion, on top of combat add-ons that tell you more about the fights due to how the fights are designed and visualized (imo, not always very well, especially with high end fights with not very good indicators for mechanics).
I think not having any officially helps ff14, though the ones that exist exidt for a good reason; but I think wow's culture of NEEDING add-ons to do pretty much anything endgame due to how it was designed to be very hands-off in that regard. The best and most reasonable answer is ofc somewhere in the middle, and I wish WoW would ban combat add-ons and make them only UI related.
There will/you will ALWAYS find something missing when it's not nesserarly. Because you have a personnal view, If you push a game to catter to you and your "QoL" , you may impact the greater mass. For some QoL can litteraly be boss mods. Making more clear what the boss will do, sound alert for visual impaired and whatnot.
@@ereder1476 "Because you have a personnal view, If you push a game to catter to you and your "QoL" , you may impact the greater mass."
In the context of FFXIV, this is basically nonsense. No one using addons is pushing the game to do anything. They just want to be left alone. People have already given up hope on SE ever improving the UI. Literally no one cares as long as they can get their QoL fixes elsewhere. QoL and cosmetic addons only affect you. Even if you installed NSFW mods, all it changes is what you see. If you made icons bigger, showed buff timers, all it changes is what you see. It doesn't and will never affect the wider community.
You're conflating QoL and UI addons with other more egregious ones. They're different. If you can't tell the difference you probably should get to endgame first before joining the discussion.
The only people pushing SE to do anything are the horde of casuals crying about addons and things being unfair, to the point that Yoshi P had to make a statement. The same bored toxic casuals who are carrying out witch hunts and mass reporting streamers. It'd be different if they're World First proggers. But the World First proggers aren't even complaining. No one with a brain will ever say that the reason they're not World First is because they didn't use the same addons.
"Making more clear what the boss will do" - If you can't see the giant telegraphed circles/boxes in FFXIV without addons, you'd have to be visually impaired. In most cases, the reason you fail mechanics in FFXIV is 1) you don't know/understand the mechanics 2) you need more practice 3) you're garbo. If you have trouble seeing them, go get your eyes checked.
"sound alert for visual impaired" - Heard of voice chat? People calling out mechanics in a voice chat? Discord? Teamspeak? Being part of a regular static? That's literally a sound alert. Seriously doubt you did any raiding outside PF, assuming you even play the game.
@@doryfishie2 can you remake that comment without being disingenious? ie: equaling callout from another player equal to an automatic sound alesrt from a bot ?
But seeing your selfrighteous and condensending tone (ie: second paragraph) i guess you can't ..
the only addon i use is the chat bubbles as well! having the text over someone's head is something i've missed coming from runescape and PSU/PSO2
My stance is and always will be, if the add on trivializes the mechanics of an encounter then it is bad, otherwise all should be fair play. Not big on Damage Meters because I've seen their effects in both ffxiv and WoW so I would rather they don't exist but that's more personal than anything.
Imagine having dps checks and no way to check your team's dps to find out why youre not making the check.
Sounds completely stupid to me. There is nothing wrong with dps meters, just dont openly harass people... be a decent human being, why is this so hard?
@@heiral7773 because there's a depressingly high percentage of assholes among the general population and it only takes a few to turn the whole thing toxic
and, quite honestly, among the ultra-sweaty super-serious gamers who will primarily be using such tools, that percentage of assholes is waaaaay higher than normal anyway. It's why you will never find a competitive gamer scene you actually want you kids to be a part of, it's dominated largely by the assholes
@@heiral7773 so every boss in FF and wow and FFXIV I downed (Wrath-warlords in wow and since launch in ff) without those and with my guilds and FCs not having damage meters isn't possible? Needing this is just a justification you give yourself, dps check bosses are there to help you see if you have enough damage or not as a group, the number itself doesn't matter
@@michaelsharaiha "Needing this is just a justification you give yourself"... People using dps meters just as much to improve their gameplay. Playing without is a great way to tell yourself you are playing well, even if you are heavily underperforming.
@@lade3468 I'm saying that saying DPS meters are important for DPS checks on bosses is self justification, you don't need it there. If you are using the meter for yourself on bosses or dummies then it gets the same treatment as any other mod.
U get a like from me sir just for that intro alone...plus the lighting on u seemed cool and ominous
I played WoW from launch through MoP with all the add-ons I could get my hands on, and I played FFXIV from ARR's launch to present with no add-ons. The latter is so much better to me, aside from no chat bubbles and a housing / apartment system that doesn't allow coordinate precision.
Side note: 2:50 "Vocal notifications" are not simple, they are often using data to tell you about a mechanic before it starts being telegraphed to players. It's quite obviously cheating.
Your hair looks excellent, Mike! Plus, I've got my damage meters, UI stuff, etc., but I hate that I need them. I feel blocked off from content because of the insane quantity of addons, and I have always been terrified of Logs because I'm worried that if I mess up, or don't accrue high enough Logs that I'll have a stain on my character. Further, if I don't have Logs, I can't get into a raid group to get them easily. I know there are ways to get around this, for sure, I'm aware I don't see the whole picture. However, the fact that I feel this way at all, and can't just let my in-game results be enough, and that I have to maintain this 3rd party record is the biggest turn off for me. I just wanna login and play, man. I don't wanna have to curate my Logs, and stress over not parsing purple or blue.
Addons for me have always been about tweaking the imperfections of a game. As an example wow's UI customization has been terrible for a long time, addons let me better customize my ui, FFXIV doesnt support mouse over casts by default (yes macros exist but those come with a whole host of issues) so I use an addon to allow me to mouse over cast. I've never been a huge fan of automation addons, stuff that automates your leveling experience, or your raiding experience, or whatever else, as I feel those take away from the game rather than add on to it.
I use ACT. I'm colorblind, and recently, between Fatebreaker and Phoinix, there's been some mechanics where I literally cannot see what is going on in the fight. So, I have Cactbot set up to be as non-invasive as possible but so that if there's a mechanic I literally cannot see, I can still have a chance of figuring out which version of the mechanic it is (Light vs Fire, big fireball vs many smaller ones), because otherwise, I'd be forced to rely on communication of others to be able to respond to mechanics. Yes, it's against the ToS. But, their colorblind settings are terrible (it applies a filter to the entire screen, meaning similar colors are still going to be similar, and trying to figure out what specific balance of the screen filters means I can see this particular mechanic is not something I think anyone would expect someone else to go through), so I made my own way to get accessibility until they fix their own accessibility features.
Just to inform that, this things is always happened every time there is a big race in the game.
The reason square Enix stand on no addons whatsoever that interact with the game is because FFXIV is cross platform game, player in PS4/5 can't have the benefits of PC player does and this is automatically become unfair advantage to console.
But giving a suggestion to add this system from the addons that improve QoL like chat bubble, buff timer on party list, and difference of magic and physical dmg numbers can be considered.
Ff14 had their big CD numbers before but for some unknown reason they downscale the CD number to the size of ants.
Being left handed, and playing with mouse on left, and the ten key for my action bar, Bartender, and that 3x4 configuration to match the ten key is vital.
Between the two options I prefer by far a strict no addons policy, although things like accessibility, chat bubbles, gshade, hrothgar hats and hair enablers, etc. obviously don't bother me and should be in-game in the first place so whatever.
Also, I'm against DPS meters in general, but I think attacking a striking dummy or entering a Stone, Sky and Sea instance should pop one. I personally couldn't care less what color my parse is on fflogs (a clear is a clear) but it doesn't mean I want to be a deadweight or "carried" in a party. If I'm performing so badly that I'm consistently forcing others to compensate, I want to know and I want in-game tools to help me get better.
They technically have chat bubbles in ffxiv already, some npcs in the open world or in certain duties have them. So they wouldn't have to make them from scratch i would think. Hopefully they can make it available for players eventually.
I'm concerned that chat bubbles won't be considered a priority. Mike only started playing XIV recently so that can make it seem like the devs respond to players quickly, but XIV is not a new game, it's over 8 years old. People have been asking for these features for a long time so if they're not implemented by now, they are likely to still be a long way away, if they ever come at all.
Yoshida's post on addons specifically says that the stuff they will look at implementing is related to areas that players feel are insufficient for clearing high-end content, so I feel like they might prioritize combat UI stuff over chat bubbles.
Its definitely not going to be a priority i agree, but they do technically already have them in game
I really hope ffxiv adds chat bubbles. Npcs have them so they can do them. It’s one of those Qol things that need to happen. Have them able to be turned off ofc though. Also well the TOS is the TOS witchhunts are one of the dumbest things ever. Hopefully this dies down soon enough and we can return to some sense of normalcy. That one add on that showed area of effects for attacks that are visual based though was bs and should definitely get people banned.
I'm just pro modding and customization in general, and have been for years. Whether it's customizing my Skyrim install with 139 plugins, add-ons in MMOs, and even some degree of development and bugfixing (I still need to share my fixed MSBT for 3.3.5 lol)
I personally hate Addons, and way back in TBC I helped design a RP Addon that had almost a million downloads. I personally want chat bubbles, Viera hats, and a few Quality of life UI improvements. But what I hate is ACT, and the FFXIV version of DBM. They make the game easier, and can be used for toxic purposes.
For sure it is a complicated issue. I have been playing since ARR Beta and only recently learned about plugins (outside of DPS meters, though I never used them) and even though they are limited, I was shocked to see what they could do. An example is an extension of ACT that told you what the next mechanic would be and guides you how to resolve it.
Why I am concerned about that is I am worried about the use of these plugins causing an artificial sense of "the fights need to be harder" and thus creating a huge gap between "casual players" who don't use plugins and the ones that do.
People who use the plugins will think the combat is too easy and those that don't will think it is too complex and due to the hidden nature of the plugins (squenix can't detect who is using them) there is no way to tell why certain people are failing objectives vs those that are successful. I desperately want to avoid the paradigm of certain plugins being mandatory, yet being an Elder Scrolls fan, I understand the desire to have freedom of customization outside of what the devs provide.
I had recently started playing WoW a few weeks ago. and was surprised when I asked what the mechanics were to a boss was and the answer my friends gave me was that I should get DBM. because they just followed DBM. honestly I find DBM and GTFO and addons of that sort kind of ruin the point of a fight. it litterally just says "hey, do this" when a mechanic happens. I think the only way WoW can combat this is adding consistency to fights. markers or distinction to attacks that tell the player whats going to happen just be looking and paying attention
I mean you dont need those addons , they make it alot easier ofc but defo doable without!
you are right that they could just add markers/distinctions like ffxiv has. this would solve the problem of people feeling the need to get those ridiculous add-ons. i did use dbm when i played, & if they implemented markers/distinctions -- & i still even played -- then of course i would get rid of that add-on because id have no need for it anymore.
I'm glad that the topic is at front and center, so devs can be aware of it. Non-combat related stuff, cameras, chat bubbles, housing placement systems.
One of the reasons in WoW for the "need" to have addons that trivialize an encounter is the size of the given raid.
Having 20 people coordinated for an extended period of time is a massive increase in difficulty over lets say 8 -10 people.
Another aspect to it is that the human mind almost always gravitate towards the path of least resistance, hence addons that make things easier.
Be it UI, Chat Bubbles, Action Bars, Cooldown / Buff information addons.
There will never be a game that do not have people that want to modify it to their specific liking, because just like in real life we are unique individuals with unique taste.
The addon question is not a black or white question, it's a muddied grey area that is basically impossible to make a fit everyone area.
people done 40 man raids with no addons just fine when the game was released so your 20 people is too much is invalid
And Delubrum Reginae Savage is between 24-48 players
You mentioned having a HUD that looks nice and clean and open. I use the Ring Hotbar addon TPie and it's completely cleared my HUD of all the shortcut hotbars I use because I hate navigating the menus. That's why I love the way the FF14 community takes it's add-ons. They exist for QoL and accessibility reasons and that's the standard that needs to be upheld whether by implementing those type of addons into the game itself or creating methods to monitor approved addons. That or you just shut up and keep quiet about them in game and they just stay out of World's First content all together.
I love FFXIV so much. But I find it absurd that accessability Addons are considered against TOS. If it's not giving you an advantage or being used to alter in-models or harass other players, why ban it? What's the harm in a chat bubble addon? Or color-blind addons for people who are colorblind? FFXIV is notoriously bad at options for colorblind players from what Mr. Happy has said. I understand console players can't use addons but why punish streamers with accessibility issues or people who want to harmlessly alter their ui to be more comfortable?
I want to start by saying that I agree with you whole-heartedly! The reason they ban accessibility add-ons though is because they take the stance that by allowing ANY add-ons it would result in a slide into where WoW is now with combat add-ons. I can absolutely understand their reasoning, and I can understand why given that stance their hands were forced in the world first streamer situation. But it's still ridiculous that some of these options aren't already in the game--ESPECIALLY the accessibility ones! Yoshi-P has said that they are looking to implement some of the more popular UI add-ons into the base game which is great! But he didn't say which, how many, or when. So it's up to us to keep raising the topic up and keep the pressure on them for base game improvements. Also, this sort of thing happens cyclically in the ff14 community. Give it another week or two and streamers will probably be a-ok using their UI add-ons again as the witch hunts die down.
if they change the ToS to only say 'some add-ons are banned'.... yeah, that just opens up a huge can of worms that they have to constantly stay on top of to make sure every single add-on on the internet has been approved or banned, and this has to be updated with each new version of each add-on because you'd better believe some players will want to argue why it shouldn't be banned anymore.
it's far easier to say all add-ons are banned, and give an informal list to the mods about which ones they don't actually care about.
Great video, and I'm glad someone understands the middle ground. I'm seeing far too many go "just break everything" or "just allow everything" and both are wrong. I actually wrote a big post about this a after the ion interview that you should check out. Addon take from an addon author. I'd also love to talk to you on this topic if you want.
As a console player, I never understood the whole add-on/mod sentiment. I was able to clear unreal, savage & ultimate fights (DSR not yet). All the while just playing vanilla FFXIV. I understand the many in the PC player look down on console players. As console players are limiting the upgrade and improvement of the game. How do I know?! Because, even, members in my own FC says this as they agree for they are PC players. Most players, console or PC, could care less as they just enjoy playing the game. But you do have plenty of toxic try-hards who know full well what the rules are but will “rationalize” why they shouldn’t have to follow it. But there are the toxic Yoshi P sycophants who literally take anything Yoshi P & devs say as gospel. Both groups are equally toxic. That toxicity is usually hidden just beneath the overall happy FFXIV community.
Your profile picture is pure evil. I had to scroll up and down twice to establish that there wasn't a hair on my monitor.
I played to max level without addons. When I reached max level I got an addon that sells all gray items on the click of a button and an AH addon, then I got a damage meter, but I'm only using it to check how I myself can improve.
I am a big fan of addons in the sense that it makes it possible for some people to play the game who would have otherwise not been able to... WoW has an addon that enables controller support for those who can't use a keyboard and mouse and even FFXIV has some addons that greatly improve the color blind modes.
I really hope they take a good look at those kind of addons and implement those changes in the future...
QoL addons are nice and all, but accessibility addons are just a must sometimes!
14:06 ! same, would love to see how they perform after their addons are taking away. To see some real GAMER cred and know the fight like the back of their hand.
This along with Mr. Happy and Zepla have the most reasonable takes I've seen. Totally agree with all three. Addons for FF only become a problem when they either trivialize an encounter or are used, as Preach says, "as a weapon" against other players. As a long term wow player who swapped to FF in the last year I can say that one of the most refreshing things is the lack of widespread DPS meters. Make it so that I don't have to constantly feel like I'm playing an esport when I play with a group and that is a very nice thing. That said, for those who want personal improvement, dps meters can be a useful tool. IMO they should be permitted so long as they are not "visible" or used to abuse other players.
Who cares if they are used as a weapon? If you get called out for low dps, then you have the option to go play with other people. No addons is akin to the "everyone's a winner" culture that this world has embraced. Take responsibility for your actions, and dont blame other people for calling you out for being shit.
@@TheNichq ^ Toxicity at it's finest
@@steven700 lol he must be a WoW player
I really enjoyed this video. I've drifted away from WoW, so it's been a while since I've seen your content. You seem a lot less stressed than I remember. I look forward to seeing more.
All instances of the word "You" are done in the Royal tense, aka addressing a faceless group and not any individuals.
Games are an artistic art form. It's up to it's creators to decide how it is to be enjoyed. If they say they want no Add-ons, that's up to them. If you then sign documentation saying you understand and accept that and then choose to break this contract, you should do so knowing full well what that means for you if you get caught. You signed a contract, be an adult. Accept that there will likely be consequences for your actions.
You are entitled to nothing. They made the game, they decide how it is to be played, you signed a contract. If you don't like it there are plenty of really awesome games where the creators allow add-ons/mods. If you go to a game that does not, you breach the contract that you signed and then you whine or throw a public fit about getting banned, that says more about you and less the creators.
My view on the matters comes from my profession as a nurse meeting people with various disabilities every day at work: As long as it's not for competitive content, I don't think programs that help players get through the world the developers build for us is harmful for anyone. For a lot of people it's not a matter of ''do better/read the tooltips/memorize it/react faster'', they literally can't because of circumstances out of their control.
I feel the accessibility options some of these programs offer is the major reason why they've not been cracked down on harder before. And that players who really need them to go through normal content are discreet about it.
If I was going to get one thing added into the FFXIV experience, it would be the chat bubbles. I miss having them from other games that I have played and would really love it if it could be a thing that the team brought in.
Totally unrelated to the video...somewhat, but I really want to see that theater in more detail and see if someone has something similar in the Crystal Data Center, because that was simply fantastic!
Minor, inconsequential tweaks like chat bubbles are perfectly fine. Things like weakauras which label parts of the fight clearly shouldn't even be a thing because the game should have some very clear, very concise telegraph telling you what's happening. Anything that effects the gameplay at all should be banned.
agreed, I love WA for buff/debuff/CD tracking and this was first raid I actually had to download a WA for a boss mechanic, we all know the one. I feel like wow is heading into a dangerous direction of requiring WA but I'd still say even right now they're not necessary for all minus that one boss.
Good video and I overall agree but some extra context on the FFXIV side since it isn't just about the devs being afraid it will turn into the WoW situation:
A large part of the issue is for bards to be able to play music they need to absolve themselves of copyright infringement which is why you have to say you won't play copyrighted music (even though people will obviously do it anyway). If they openly allowed addons it would hurt that cool little feature that's baseline in the game and even though it happens rarely people do get banned for using the bard mods when they out themselves.
The main thing that really forced SE's hand wasn't just DBM but people using AVR on stream during the most recent Ultimate race which was obviously a huge step too far.
I honestly think the best stance is what FF does, for as long as it's possible. Like, I think it's fine if people sneak addons during progression or whatever, I just don't want it to become the mainstream that it would be by endorsement. Honestly this is the serious issue with WoW; anything WF raiders use bleeds down to be mainstream even in pug runs, not as serious but it's still there.
That said I think it is also a thing where MMO devs tend to underdesign the UI side of the game, omitting easy non-intrusive options that other games might have, where you just don't get why it's missing. This I really would like to see improved, not just for me but also for as you say, streamers using actually useful and non-intrusive addons. :)
I moved away from mythic raiding in wow cause I was looking through a 3x3 inch box on my screen for to addons and I wasn't engage in the boss, only weak aura and bars
You didn't even mention the most important part of the entire discussion. Almost half of FFXIV's player base is on console.. Without the ability to even access add-ons of any kind. SE has to keep this in mind and make sure the experience is balanced across both pc and console. The fact that raid teams think it's OK to use mods, triggers, etc to compete for a world first completion race while KNOWING they are against TOS and while KNOWING that a large portion of competitors have NO access to these things is ridiculous and completely unfair. People are really crying over the fact that SE is cracking down on this!? It makes complete sense that they would.
I play WoW, I use DBM, details & weak auras for the dreadlord fight & that’s it.
For the most part it’s fine & I manage blue and purple parses for the most part, which is fine as I’m a KSM, AotC raider.
That being said I don’t heal.
I also step away from addons due to massive visual clutter.
All that said I’m looking a bit into customizing weak auras for audio queues regarding things like cooldowns. I can’t tell what’s going on with stuff slapped in the middle of my screen, but it would be easier to tell on my shaman running wolf bones when dogs are off CD if I had the game howl or beep at me.
Personally, I think that FFXIV's standpoint on addons is mostly fine for everyday players while WoW is WAY off on the deep end of not fine for everyday players. In FFXIV for example, an everyday player could use things like chat bubbles or the camera improvements or whatever and literally nobody would know, nobody wipes on the raid and then is immediately saying "Hey everyone instead of improving at the mechanic lets trivialize it by installing this weakaura.". You are affected by things like this because it is the negative portion of "streamer privilege". You are streaming your gameplay and everyone can see that you are using them but that is NOT the everyday player experience. Personally I dont think that the rules should be altered with you, asmon, pyro, bell, etc in mind front and center.
WoW on the other hand is WAY WAY WAY on the other hand and is affecting literally everyone that engages with the end game portion of the game. It isnt just UI improvements or AH improvements. The combat addons have to go. If that breaks auctionator along the way sucks to suck. You are expected to have DBM, and MRT, damage meters, logs, weakauras with multiple auras already installed before even walking into the raid/M+/PvP (I know pvp has their own addons outside of what I listed I just dont know them cause I suck and dont do it). If your raid wipes some asshat will look for a WA that will immediately make whatever you all just wiped to a thing of the past.
But just as players have gotten to reliant on add ons in WoW so have the dev team. Can someone tell me why the tank has to have an addon in a M+ run that announces that he is being targeted by a frontal? You see in EVERY OTHER GAME (FFXIV, ESO, GW2, SWTOR, etc) there is just a yellow or pink or some other obnoxiously bright color that says "Hey bro dont stand there or you ded." or even better, if they do telegraph the mechanic it is light blue on a light grey floor or a tiny red whisp blended in with the rest of the player and enemy spells popping off at the time. Why is by a mechanic that can wipe the raid dictated by Johnny hopefully noticing a tiny box at the top right corner of the screen mixed with 10 other small boxes?
Yes. I agree there is room for XIV to improve a LITTLE but WoW needs to disable them entirely and see just how bad the game is for both everyday questers and end game pushers. Yes I realize that XIV has logs and damage meters as well. It sucks that you have to sort of tip toe around a player underperforming giving vague statements on how he/she can improve without outright saying what the problem is or you risk getting banned OR instead of tip toeing you just outright kick them because they are doing bad and you have a TIGHT damage check you have to meet to kill the boss.
There's actually one thing that does concern me about the innocent addons like UI enhancements. If people are too happy to use addons to "fix" their various small gripes, then the demand for the devs to actually fix it officially drops. In FFXIV I have addons to control what debuffs I see, individually size up the ones I want to see more, I have additional gauges for some jobs to show more information more conveniently, and so on. I now don't have any will or energy to go to the official forums or elsewhere and in any way voice my wish for these things to be implemented...because I already have them.
We basically have to just trust that the devs are keeping their eye on what addons exist and take ideas from them, because I can't see addon usage translating to visible consumer feedback if the consumers are content to fix the problem externally.
It's a difficult subject. On the one hand, I use mods that improve the graphical experience of FFXIV in ways that I would consider absolutely vital to my enjoyment of the game. When the new graphical upgrade happens, I may let those addons go, but that's still a ways down the road.
On the other hand, having come from World of Warcraft, I want to scream to the fucking heavens, "Don't bend on this, SE." Add-ons ended up being such a cancer to WoW's design. What started as simple QoL fixes devolved into addons that were necessary to even complete content, and eventually even a way for people to gatekeep you from said content, at their discretion. That's complete shit, and WoW is worse for their existence.
So as much as I'd like to stay on the fence about this, I can't: SE needs to enforce their rules. If that means someday I may have to give up my graphical mods, so be it. At least I know graphical enhancements are on the way, and I'll find the patience to wait for them if it means keeping the addon cancer out of FFXIV.
I find it so interesting to hear that you think FFXIV is very strict about third-party tools. As far as I know, they've always had the sorta philosophy of "as long as you're not interfering with other's enjoyment or promoting it in public we won't come looking". It was only recently that they did a couple of high-profile bans spurred by the high visibility of some streamers & mass reports that they couldn't ignore that this whole (non)situation happened.
So I am very curious to hear what would be a less strict (ideal?) way to go about third-party tools in your opinion.
couldn't imagine wow without addons anymore, specially being on an RP realm, so RP addons add so much more character customisation and immersion by letting you describe your character so much.
I've got Weakauras as well and such, though weakauras for me is to replace my UI rather than encounter specific stuff. e.g. my health bars are weakauras, character power like mana, combo points, soul shards etc... and my hud's for procs as i prefer progress animations that empty out the lower my timer for say my pyroblast proc is, rather than the standard one from blizz themselves.
the most intricate weakaura i have, would be the outlaw rogue roll the bones one, to see if I should reroll or not, depending on what my own buffs are. Wouldn't class that under gamebreaking.
I think, in general [all games] the rule of thumbs should be:
All non combat, client side modifications to User Interface [UI], Textures or Mode/Mesh should be allowed with the exception to Modifications that trivialize, manipulate or otherwise result in data shown that other players of a base installation do not have. All combat addons should be disabled. How a game functions should be up to the sole discretion of the creators and designers of the product. How it looks [UI], and the User Experience [UX] should be up to the player to tune to their personal preferences. After-all. Keybinding, is a UX feature that most cannot imagine playing without anymore.
I think they're at a point where the code is so massive it would be like taking out a jenga block and that's a coding nightmare. Kinda hope they're just working on WoW 2 with some clean code so they can modify stuff like that on the fly. With the game being this old and most of the original coders gone I'm pretty sure it's hard for them to change anything. Hence no ripcord
I am one of those players of World of Warcraft that doesn't use any kind of addon and I have been playing sense classic was the only version of the game out. I even challenged a fellow guild member to stop using all the addons and they said they can't. they know that their play is better because of the addons. In the past there wasn't a mouse over cast in the game, now there is but I haven't played around with it, and one of the main addons my guild member uses is the mouse over addon. He also uses DBM, which is not as bad as the addons you listed that straight up said do "x" and you would be fine. My guild member said that he would loss DPS if he had to play with no addons at all, this includes UI style addons, which the one he uses helps him keep track of his DoTs so he can DPS easier. As someone that plays with others that use addons I made it clear I don't want anything on my screen that comes from an addon. one examble is when a marker is added over your head, yes you can do this mamually in the game, because a machanic is about to happen to you. Now I know that the user can't stop it from showing up so a few hhave turned that part of the addon off. they get a warning still but nothing is shown. Our main healer even says that it would be harder to heal without the addons they use. I have healed without addons and trying to keep track of everyones health on the side while watching what is going on is hard but not impossible. I wouldn't ask the people I play with to stop using addons anymore but please try and make sure that it doesn't effect my game play I'm trying to have. I have videos out there of me playing without addons. From mythic dungeons, mythic plus included, to tower runs back in Legion. I like FFXIV for their policy of zero addons/plugins. Yes they make is more clear on what about to happen and you have time to react but sometimes with lag you just die even to the simple machanics. I done the dance in Nax back in Wraith when that was the only raid at the time. I died a couple times but on the third run I noticed the pattern and I was able to stay alive. Most of the boss fights have patterns for their bigger attacks or simple things to do, like interupting or getting behind something to break LOS. A feel addons take away from people using their heads to figure out what is going on. The classic Leeroy Jenkins and Oxy fight memes come to mind on what it means to have addons and why they have grown in WoW.