31:00 I think I get Galadriel's motivation at the end. If she confesses bringing Sauron to Eregion, Gil-galad will most certainly go ballistic, pull the project & put the Elves on the next boat to Valinor. She sees in the rings a chance to not only keep the Elves in ME but also give them a power with which to resist Sauron. She deems it worth the risk & I guess is proved right in the end.
I don't know if she is proven right considering everything that goes down after the forging of the one ring. The elves take their rings off and sauron declares war and chaos ensues. In this version/retelling galadriel is a complete failure
@@warheit13 Nope, she will be proven right in the end. Forging the Elven rings immediately, without Sauron's assistance, was the right call. All three rings will be used later on to assist the Fellowship in some way. The Fellowship's stops in Rivendell and Lothlorien are essential, both realms given power by their ring-bearers. And, of course, Gandalf is a part of the Fellowship. His ring plays an important role as well, which is why Cirdan gave it to him in the first place. Galadriel has made some bad calls, and some good calls this season, but her last play of the season was definitely a good call. Far from a complete failure. She feels guilty in her role in Sauron's return, but she isn't totally to blame for what's to come, and now she'll shift tactics in handling Sauron's aggression. I'm excited to watch her journey unfold.
So It is better stay silent and let Sauron do what he wants... Smart decision... Basically she is responsable for Mordor being a thing, Numenor's fall in the future, helping Sauron, forging the rings with Sauron influence on them... She is the real evil...
We finally made it over 3 hours! Thank you to Corey, Maggie and everyone who worked on this season of Rings & Realms. Looking forward to more discussions moving forward!!
I watched an interview with Charlie Vickers, Halbrand/Sauron’s actor on this episode and he does seem to see the raft scene as him using the connection he does share with Galadriel to cement a useful ally that can continue to get him to places he might otherwise have difficulty accessing. He doesn’t really care for her and had no intention of ruling as equals with her. He is willing to say just about anything to manipulate her to say yes at the moment though. I also think he is speaking in half-truths as generally the best liars do. The best lies have nuggets of truth in them after all.
See, I like the idea that Sauron, when he's in Galadriel's mind is toying her memories of Halbrand and manipulating them, and that Halbrand may have been Halbrand up until a certain point, and then Sauron killed him and took his form. What that point is exactly is hard to determine. It could only be times in which he's alone. It's hard to make logical sense of it because there's a lot of evidence that would disprove this idea. It could be after Orodruin erupts because of how Halbrand is towards Adar. Unless they actually had a history, but I dunno why Sauron would say that Adar is his enemy and that's why he fought with Galadriel/Numenoreans against Adar if they didnt have an actual history. It could have happened on Numenor with Sauron already being there, and chose to take Halbrand's form when he sees Galadriel is there and decided to see what she was going on about. Still, hard to prove at this point. And it could just be that Sauron was Halbrand the entire time and the whole "why was he on the raft in the first place as Sauron?" is just one of those things they'll never explain.
@@grayden4138 Hopefully they explain the raft thing in season 2. The fact they did meet on the raft is fine imo, Tolkien heavily liked the use of "chance" meetings as Rings and Realms points out. My assumption I have gathered is after Adar killed his mortal form he was in a sort of exile. He tells Galadriel he was driven from his land by orcs, which if that was the case makes sense. I actually suspected something like that once Adar was introduced. It takes time for Sauron to regain strength when his physical form is killed so he could be trying to lay low for awhile. Why that was on the ocean specifically I have no idea. Possibly trying to reach Numenor? He apparently was on a ship with those other humans before the sea monster attacked so that could be. As for the times Halbrand seems to be in turmoil when alone, which I think is just when he is holding the bag when the guards arrive in episode 5, this seems like a more three dimensional version of Sauron than we got in the books so he could be conflicted over using the opportunity Galadriel is giving him to kill Adar and take over Mordor versus getting his fresh start in Numenor. Maybe he eventually planned on corrupting the kingdom of men at that point but for now we don't know.
WOW it was conveyed and written so poorly you need an actor to retcon it with his own take as if he were the writer himself which he is not! Shitshow. Horrible abomination of a show and a rape of Tolkiens lore. Never has there ever been such an abysmal “adaptation”
My favorite thing that he said in that interview is that he imagined Sauron getting a rush when meeting someone else as powerful as Galadriel. His interpretation of Tolkien’s Sauron almost “repenting” I felt was right on.
@@nonsense2369 I’m not sure if you know what retcons are. He is Sauron the Deceiver, if you didn’t go into that scene skeptical of his motivations then that is on you. Actors also can have opinions on things and can influence the work. If you wanted Sauron to spell out for you “oh by the way let me explain how much of what I said is true and what wasn’t” in the show then I’m not sure you know what is good or bad writing. Show is fine, sometimes pretty good. People overhype how bad it is because they somehow think adaptations can’t change things from the source material or it is bad. It has genuine writing issues but I have seen much, much worse adaptations/tv shows.
I hope the DO give a big donation to signum universiry! Corey did very hard work to rationalize and be generous and very open towards the show... it HAS to,pay off,
One thought, only the elves know that Halbrand is Sauron. The south landers and numemorians have no idea that he’s not the king they thought he was so he could still come back to rule them and hand out rings to other lords of men in the area. And the dwarves don’t even know he exists so someone showing up giving them nifty rings of power that don’t necessarily have a reason to distrust him.
“Maybe they didn’t make this show for me.” Oh man that one got me right in the gut. I’m right there with you Corey. But why didn’t they make it for us? What’s wrong with us? That stupid raft…
In the show Galadria says the rings should be a power for 'the Elves alone'. I think "Hal-ron" is going to whisper in the ears of the Dwarves and Men that 'The Elves don't want you to have this power but I can make power rings for you...".
I think Halbrand is going to return to Celebrimbor when Galadriel is gone. "Galadriel said not to trust me? Well, didn't she also say not to help the other races? Something's clearly wrong with her! We should help the other races, and then try to figure out how to help poor Galadriel!"
not a bad idea there. seeds of conflict. imagine the greed that would have been going on though in those times with the elves having those rings. ALL the rings. I can see Sauron using that to turn many tribes of Men against the elves.
1:27:22 The last view we get of Númenor is not only the city and the harbor shrouded with mourning flags commemorating death, but at the same time, in the background, one of those memorials to fake immortality in the likeness of a former king, frozen in a larger-than-life stone monument.
@@isakri9459 Not Eärendil - it's about Tar-Palantir who has just died. Pharazôn has been making sure his likeness is preserved so he can be "immortalized" along with all the prior kings, according to the tradition, and as we pan across the harbor where the ships are draped in black flags of mourning, the shot ends with one of those massive stone carvings of a former king in the background. The juxtaposition of these two symbols (black flags for death, stone statue for immortality) seems to be deliberately highlighting the Númenorian fixation on the theme of death and immortality.
His raft in the very first scene even looks like Sauron's crown if you look at the placement of the spikes, at this point it would be beyond insulting if they told us "no, that was the real Halbrand!"
@@elultimopujilense Nah, it’s incredibly well done and respectful of Tolkien’s themes. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean other Tolkien fans feel the same.
I didn't interpret Galadriel's choice to not stop the forging of the rings as her being necessarily being in favour of their crafting. I think she saw them as necessary to save the elves, but she'd be damned if she was going to let Celebrimbor make the amount that Sauron wanted to. I think she was honest in her statement that "One corrupts, two divides." Perhaps not strictly a necessary evil, but perhaps a necessary power. In the end, I love that it retains two of the original motivations for crafting the rings from the books, the preservation of the elves, and to counteract the power of Sauron. Elrond and Celembrimbor don't know that yet, but that's what I thought was in her mind: preserving the elves *in order* to allow them to work against him. Yes they need to stop their fading (as they understand it), but now they also need to stop him. Also it's not clear to me that she wants a ring for herself. It's not stated who were going to receive the two (though we can probably guess who Sauron wanted them to go to) so there's no indication that Elrond or Celebrimbor (or Gil-Galad for that matter) know who a third will belong to. The only thing that's clear to all is the necessity of there being three.
The show runners said Cirdan will be introduced in the future, so I do hope they go the original ring wielder route with Gil Galad, Celebrimbor and Cirdan.
@@mrs.manrique7411 I don't remember a mention of Celebrimbor bearing a Ring himself? I thought Galadriel is Nenya's only wearer in every version, or at least every one I'm familiar with. I could see her not receiving it immediately, but I don't think anyone else wields it.
I think it's also worth pointing out that the Stranger might not make it to Rhun, and that events will divert his direction elsewhere. On the other hand, it would be cool if the Stranger is the Blue Wizard, and Gandalf arriving later learns a thing or two from the Blue Wizards. The biggest reason I think the Stranger is Gandalf is more that Daniel Weyman starts channeling the mannerisms and speech patterns of, not just a "wizard," but of Ian McKellen specifically. If we compare the Stranger talking to Nori to Gandalf speaking to Pippin before the Siege of Mines Tirith, we see very similar facial expressions and phrasings.
We still have a lot of lindon related questions. But the showrunners teased that there is something up with the mithril story. I understand "sauron is responsible" was the quick and easy solution, but now thas h=s is official we have to accept that we dont know how they are doing the fading of the elves at all. We will have to wait and see. S2 theory: Berec will find isildur and show up with a rope in its mouth. Isildur is trapped under the rubble and extends his hand. Then Berec throws the rope in a lake and Just stares at isildur.
The showrunners said in an interview that the tale of Mitril was apocryphal (doubtful authenticity). They did it deliberately to bring in the casual audience by creating urgency for the elves. By the showrunners calling it apocryphal, through Elrond, they give the hard-core fans an out by making it viable not to believe the story. They said this on an interview on The Ringer on Spotify. This makes it even worse in my opinion. Now we are made to believe that all the elves have to leave Middle-earth because of a myth that is untrue, which makes them look stupid, elves should be wise. So a huuuge sacrifice for the hard-core fans who know the lore and know how things should be, and a small gain for the casual viewer. Bad. Writing. Imagine essentially telling your audience, "We are going with this because we need easy drama, but you can choose not to believe if it makes you feel better, and we'll leave it there.."
@@Ptr96 I think you have to remember that there are way more casual viewers out there than hard core fans and that this is entertainment aimed at getting the most viewers possible.
I loved most everything about the show, but I was bummed about the Halbrand Sauron twist at first. Then I rewatched and realized the depth in some of the lines. "Stronger than the foundations of the earth" alone made me rethink my initial reaction. The show may be retelling the lore how it wants, but it is very well thought out while beautifully connecting to the greater lore. So damn good. Can't wait for season 2.
I was also super skeptical of the reveal when it occurred. leaks were pervasive, but even so i doubted them, and eventually assumed hal was just a big red herring. when they started making it super obvious i got this sinking feeling, but by the end of it, i found myself very satisfied with sauron's manipulations. also can't wait for season 2.
That was my journey with the revelation too. At first i was disappointed, but at the end of the episode something clicked in my (maybe stupid-sexy hal-sauron ... idk) and when i re-watched twice i was liking it, mostly because the actor is AMAZING at the role, you can see the moment his mask falls Halbrand ceases to exist and he turns into a completely different character. Voice, posture, stature, attitude, everything changes. I'd still like Halbrand dying and Sauron taking the disguise (i have my theory about this) and being the one behind every 'strange' things happening with the elves, but i won't be disappointed if it doesnt, because i feel the reveal was very well done.
“Beautifully connecting to the greater lore..” No. Just no. The changes that have been made in this show have ensured it can never be seen as part of the greater whole. That’s what makes it so disappointing. They could have made something great that would have been considered a worthy addition to the overall legendarium but through hubris and incompetence they thought they could do their own thing, in the end only succeeding in displaying their total and utter inability to create something coherent and worthy of carrying the name. They should be fired immediately before they can do any more damage. The task is clearly beyond their ability.
Apart from the celebration of friendships the other really original thing they did was the portrayal of Elrond, a fantasy hero that isn't a warrior, Spellcaster or rogue. He's a diplomat.
He seems to be the heart of the show. Great stuff with Durin, Challenging Gil Galad, and wonderful scenes with Galadriel in the finale. The scene where he finds her in the water got me!
About the Halbrand Sauron debate. How could he first be corrupting the tree and then be on a raft and then tricking the Elves into making the rings? If you look at the storyline, Sauron must be the one corrupting the tree, otherwise the whole plot falls apart. Here is why. The whole set up of the tree dying in Lindon is the idea that the Elves must have something to fear, so they wil give their power to Sauron to protect them from this evil. Halbrand shares this strategy with Galadriel in prison in Numenor. So the dying of the tree must be a real evil existing outside of Sauron (potentially) caused by the Elves, that Sauron is using to instill fear into the Elves, or an evil he created (either real or seemingly real). Then the question is, how could he be in Lindon and then on the raft? Maybe he had someone poison the tree. Maybe he had a butterfly sent to the tree and caterpillars poisoned it. Ok that was a joke, but my point is, there are many options. He most likely shapeshifted into an Elf or another being. About the raft. How did he end up on it? He could have been on his way to Númenor on a ship and a storm came. Why was he on his way to Numenor? Maybe because his family was killed by Adar and he had to flee? From a storytelling point of view, it did remind me of the paper ships that were attacked with stones in the pilot. Maybe it just represents falling stones and falling into darkness: Saurons state. If it was Saurons goal to make Galadriel his queen, wasn't this just a hoax? A trick to meet her and gain her trust? But then, how could he have known she was not going to Valinor and jump in the sea? Because he is a dark Lord I think. So the storyline must be: Sauron corrupts the tree, goes on the raft, repents, comes with Galadriel to forge the rings. I agree with you that a storyline of Sauron first corrupting the tree, then repenting somewhere along the way, then tricking the Elves into making the rings doesn't make sense. But the Showrunners must keep to it, if they stay with Halbrand is Sauron. Which I think they are going to. Quote from the Showrunners : “Season one opens with: Who is Galadriel? Where did she come from? What did she suffer? Why is she driven? We’re doing the same thing with Sauron in season two. I really like the theory that the real Halbrand was killed and Sauron shapeshifted into Halbrand. But there are so many things he says as Halbrand that wouldn't make sense in that scenario. The showrunners are going to give Sauron a backstory in season 2. If there are two Halbrands, how would they do that? They can't create a complete new story. Also, Halbrand means Hellfire in Dutch if you change one letter. So I am afraid we have to deal with the fact that Halbrand is Sauron. I would also really like if this Halbrand would be Sauron all along, but the real Halbrand is still alive somewhere and he and Celeborn meet. They catch up with Galadriel and together train Isildur. Fake Halbrand said he took the necklace (with the seal) from a dead body. Maybe there is a dead king somewhere with a brother who is still alive, next in line for the throne and the scrolls the Elves have of the lineage of kings are false. So far my thoughts on on the Rings of Power...
Doing a rewatch of Rings of Power a year out from release and found your videos. I don't love Halbrand being Sauron and your theory/coping mechanism that Sauron traded places with him during the eruption has given me hope. Lets say that's true. Then Halbrand and Isildur could find each other, since we know Isildur is actually alive. Then they make their way back to the camp where they discover that fake Halbrand went with Galadriel back to Lindon. Now, with Arondir as their guide, they must hurry to Lindon to warn the elves of the deception. Once they arrive Halbrand will be met with less than warm feelings and has to prove himself true. It could happen. It could. I swear.
I feel that Galadriel is choosing to remain silent about Sauron because she wants to stay in Middle-earth to oppose him. Revealing his identity and role in the making of the rings would very likely cause them to be destroyed, and hasten Gil-Galad’s planned withdrawal to Valinor.
I kinda read Galdriel's actions towards the end as her being somewhat ashamed after being duped by Sauron and bringing all the ruin onto everyone and isn't yet ready to openly admit to everyone what she's brought upon them and as a result wants a contingency in the form of the rings of power. That's my read anyway, likely more to it that'll be expanded upon in future seasons.
I never thought it was implicit that she wanted to stop Celebrimbor when she rushed back to the forge. I think that she realized/thought she needed that as a sort of protection against Sauron, but also knew she would need to guard Middle-Earth.
definitely agree on her shame. I think there is still a little hook in her heart with that idea of being tempted to power. Balanced power but power nonetheless. Her final test is restisting that temptation with Frodo and realizing her role is not to stay in power in M. E. but to diminish, which is what all people who have power need to do : )
@@argel1200 but if they just use their relationship to horses and catch a guy on foot they kill sauron and don't need to leave middle earth. Galadriels silence is just a plot hole or more of her villainy
Has anyone mentioned that Halbrand/Celeborn's original idea was to fashion a crown, but then Halbrand said hey, we're going to make *two* - was he talking about a pair of crowns, another prelude to his vision of a future with Galadriel? Then (iirc) they had the scene between them where she takes her dip and he disappears. So, at this point, does he know they are making rings?
Mmm, that just makes that scene more juicy. Whether or not he meant crowns or rings. Thanks for the observation. That rule of three Galadriel has might inspire her to have a baby with Celeborn??? Hmm, hmm??
Sauron said not crowns exactly, something smaller. And Celebrimbor didn't need to be told to make rings instead of crowns or bracelets when Galadriel ran to speak with him after. So Sauron was already thinking of rings for him and Galadriel, I think. Appropriate, seeing as it was a marriage proposal, of sorts.
In retrospect, watching the whole season I come to realize that Nori is the antithesis of Galadriel, and her encounter of the Stranger is the perfect antithesis of Galadriel's encounter with Sauron. Nori isn't sure if the Stranger's light is a real one either but she decides to follow her heart. All the actions and decisions Nori makes naturally and instinctively are gigantic inner battles for Galadriel. There is a real juxtaposition of both character's journey throughout the Season, thus making the Harfoot's plot way more integrated to the others than it appears, at least thematically.
I was just thinking this myself! Wonderful comparison. And while both are paired throughout the season, we see Nori and the Stranger traveling off together at the end of S1, while Galadriel and Sauron break apart.
How could Galadriel be right about Sauron being on the move if he had actually repented at the beginning of the 2nd Age? It is basically saying her 3000-year witch hunt of Sauron was for no reason other than revenge? If Sauron can be believed, I mean ;) Saurbrand may have put himself and refugees on boat wreckage near Numenor in hopes a boat from Numenor would find them and take them in? It seems the most plausible answer. OR, he was picking up Maiar who are sneaking out of Valinor (not using the catapult method) who just so happen to take the form of southlander refugees haha.
It sounds like season 2 will feature more background on Sauron and what lead up to him being found on ship wreckage in the middle of the sea. We could see the Uruk mutiny, Sauron fleeing, and what his motivation was. In season 1 he says something like he had sworn not to return (to the orcs/his old life). Maybe his line about "the tides of fate are flowing" is not only about Galadriel's situation when she was picked up by the raft, but also a reference that he was also riding the tides of fate (literally and metaphorically) to his destiny. Does he have foresight? He was around for the great music and perhaps has some insight as to the way things are going to play out, so maybe he was following something which led to him being there? Anyway, I'm assuming there will be a scheme. It seems less likely to me that he was just randomly floating around having a crisis of confidence and he did not intentionally wreck his ship (by causing a storm or whatever). The question is why? And if he didn't wreck the ship he was on, then did someone else and why? I think we need more information before we can say what happened. I'm assuming this is all relatively planned out in the 5-season are of the show so we just have to wait for more episodes.
I think Sauron did repent, in his own mind, and at this point sincerely thinks what he's doing is best for Middle-Earth. Like Morgoth before him as his efforts are thwarted he'll diminish in spirit until all he wants is domination and ruin for its own sake, but at this point he does have a goal that he thinks is noble. But in the morality of Middle-Earth, true repentance isn't just resolving to do what you think is right, it's baring all your misdeeds to Eru and throwing yourself on His mercy, which Sauron is still too proud to do. So he's telling Galadriel the truth that he believes, but he's lying to himself.
One of the things I really liked about the episode is that it showed how lonely and vulnerable Galadriel is. Sauron's misstep was switching from enticement to aggression. It allowed her to escape back into her rage where she is much more comfortable.
Meh... her rage. That bothered me from episode 1. I wish they'd approached her character completely differently. Perhaps she and her husband, Celeborn, arriving with Celebrian (their daughter) to deal with the fallout of her brother's death. Then move forward from there. I don't for a minute believe Celeborn is dead but that he'll appear somewhere in later seasons, because without him, they don't conceive of Celebrian who later marries Elrond. And from that union, we get Arewyn who marries Aragorn. Anyway... the rage-spawn Galadrial we got was wholly infuriating and, I felt, just so wrong. As it was, there was little journey to get us to episode 8, making the about-face by the finale too abrupt, and the character progression seemingly not existent. I hope the show gets better in season 2. I really do.
I started suspecting Halbrand was Sauron in the 3rd episode (it was his sniffing around the smithy and his answer when the guild guys asked him his name) and very much liked what it meant for the characters and story, even if it is a bit lore adjacent. The Stranger and Nori, on their way to Rhûn, will definitely be a blue wizard story, and I’m all in. As the professor said, the Stranger is a Blue Wizard. If TRoP turns him into Gandalf ultimately…I think I can live with that. Although I don’t think it will be necessary to appeal to the casual and Jackson-films-only viewers by making this wizard Gandalf once we’ve gone further into the story - because by then people will be ready to embrace this wizard’s story on its own merit, I bet.
Yeah that was when I thought it was Sauron too. Pointing out his interest and talent in smithing seemed like a big clue. From there the hints piled on.
@@jj48 I’d love to get a long flashback from Halbrand’s POV, showing what lead to Halbrand being on that raft at that fateful time and place, and up to and including the interlude between the eruption and when we see him again, wounded, in the tent.
@@meganjadie5659 I'm still hoping that season 2 will start with Berek and Isildur coming across the corpse of the real Halbrand, dead from the eruption. That would explain most of the issues I have with episode 8.
@@jj48 I still think Sauron was Halbrand all along, but there was definitely a change in the portrayal of Halbrand’s demeanor when we see him again in the tent. He seems much more shady and glowering from that moment on. Which would be in keeping with the idea that Sauron assumed the form of the real Halbrand, after he was killed in the eruption.
Sauron made it clear that his reason for being hesitant to go after Adar and assume the mantle of the Southland king was because he wanted to be in Numenor. When he was in Numenor, his interest was in their smithcraft. He probably had political plans for them at some point, but Galadriel's presence led him to hold off on that and try to hold her back. That all makes sense. It's possible that he was also influencing some of the elves before this, but he obviously has plans for both. I don't see any difficulty in putting any of that together. A lot of the assumptions of the rant against this seem hasty. We don't actually know he was ever working on the elves, even if their behavior seems weird, and that theory would have been cool. Placing that theory above what the show has actually shown gets things backward. But that theory is still possible. It doesn't fall because we don't know what Sauron's plan for Numenor was. He just has to have one. We don't have to know now what it is. There have been so many things in this show that didn't make sense at first but in time did, and I'm sure there will be more details filled in during season 2 that will make more sense of all this. But there's no reason to think the one way of making sense of it that Corey came up with pre-finale has to be the only way, even if that would have been great. And there is reason to think the gaps in our understanding could include explanations of what we don't get now.
You just unlocked an answer in my brain to Corey Olsen’s issue with Sauron not having a plan (that he follows through on?). So Tolkien wrote that Sauron had back up plans with being captured by Numenor. So we can imagine him being extremely flexible with whatever situation he’s given to manipulate others. Perhaps rethinking his character as someone who has back up plans upon back up plans so that he can come out on top no matter what happens (except the ring being rejected by Aragorn and two randos fighting over it at the cracks of Mt. Doom) is a better assessment of his character, besides his need for efficiency.
@@mrs.manrique7411 that still doesn't make much sense for a LOT of stuff is based on circumstance and contrivances, a lot of the plot wouldn't happen if the specific conditions were not met! But the Sauron nature is to plan and play the long game, of course he can be flexible and alter strategies to the changing circumstances...but there is no drive behind it all, no clear goal so far.
@@fantasywind3923 oh for sure, I don’t know what his original goal was (though we can guess), but obviously he wanted people to not know he was Sauron, so he wanted to be liked, accepted, trusted…for some particular aim. Perhaps he also truly was rejecting being “Sauron” because the Southlanders on the boat would have presumably worshipped/followed him if they found out he was either Sauron or their king? But they never treat him as anything but another human being. So he obviously is lying and has a particular goal in mind by hiding his true nature (or his cover as a long lost king). That’s already several back up plans if being a regular human being didn’t work on that ship.
@@mrs.manrique7411 but this is the thing, if they were using the "Sauron repentant" period into this,...they did it very, very badly because even Sauron who would reject his past and try to do good now and be benevolent...he wouldn't just...go away and do nothing...he would still have great plans for the 'betterment of the inhabitants of the world' which would naturally lead him on the path of assuming position of leadership and using his knowledge and powers for benefit of others but the show completely fails here, it's not even certain what was the point of sailing on a ship that got wrecked and so be stranded on a raft...was he actually trying to reach Numenor? Back to Aman no matter how unlikely it seems? All pretty much stupid plans because he just spend the last centuries hiding already in Middle-earth why would be leave 'NOW' hiding his true nature is not really amounting to much of a plan, it is his second nature by this time, he was known for cunning and guile but there is no sign of anything that he has truly grand plan in the making and then the 'relapse' into evil is basically sudden as if by a switch being turned not really from natural progression...if this was simply case of he was evil all along and was pretending then there is still no believable reason for what he was doing all that time across the show and not to mention the unseen backstory in between the fall of Morgoth and 'current' time. It's so so badly devised and so poorly written and completely disregarding the written lore of Tolkien, one look at the Tolkien letter would be enough to come up with a much better storyline!
@@fantasywind3923 I know what you mean. Purely from what we’ve seen in the show, he’s already been “trying to repent” like you described Sauron would do by “fixing” things. To have his character have a lull in this pursuit due to an opponent is (of course) not canon, but plausible with the Adar storyline they gave. Why this change in direction took him to the fearsome Ulmo and Ossë territory is an interesting choice for his character on the writer’s part. Like I said, he’s obviously still uncaring toward anyone else but himself, and lying about who he is, and using others, so we just have to wait and see what his true intentions were in season 2. That’s the way of mystery box storytelling - they don’t show everything about a mysterious character’s earlier choices until a later point. 🤷♀️
Tolkien changed story later though - in the first version he wrote, the 5 Wizards all showed up in the 3rd age, Saruman and the 2 Blue Wizards went to the East, Saruman returned without them, and they "probably" failed and established cults of magic. (I like that even Tolkien doesn't know for sure.) In the version he wrote later, the 2 Blue Wizards showed up in the 2nd Age, immediately went East, and were effective in undermining Sauron there, otherwise his armies would have been much bigger. In that version the other 3 Wizards came in the 3rd Age and I don't think it's mentioned whether Saruman ever followed them East. (Realizing that Tolkien actually had the Blue Wizards arrive in the 2nd Age is what made me think the Stranger is one of them and not Gandalf after all.)
When reading interviews with the showrunners and Charlie Vickers, they both mentioned Sauron being at his lowest point on that raft. That is a different solution then 'Halbrand was not yet Sauron', but also different from 'Sauron orchestrated his way onto that raft to meet Galadriel'. Charlie mentioned that the way he played the scene in Numenor where he is doubting whether he'd take up the mantle of King and join the fight in the Southlands, he mostly fears going back to Middle Earth because he is afraid of the Valar that kicked his butt last time. He is running, hiding, biding his time. I'd say though maybe not what we expect of Sauron, it at least makes for an interesting character. Of course, the drawback of that version is that the story about the fading and the dying tree are not part of Sauron's deception, but a true depiction of how things work in this world. That is why there is no 'revealing conclusion' about it in episode 8, because there is nothing to reveal.
I'm so grateful to Corey and Maggie for the idea of having an analysis show to follow each episode of this series. I'm not a "casual" Tolkien fan, but I'm not at "diehard loremaster" level yet, either, so I've learned some things. It's been fun to go through the speculations and themes with Corey, and the more cinematic details with Maggie. Absolutely LOVED "Halbrand's Funeral" and the venting sequence after. And oh, my gosh, "Slim Shady and the Death Moth Ladies" -- that's just awesome. Also thanks to the Studio Lab folks for making this series so beautiful setting-wise and your professional expertise in making this show even more engaging for the audience. Cannot WAIT for Season Two! (And ugh, we have to wait so long!) I could get on board with the Two Halbrands theory. I hope it's right. I'll survive if not, but it makes much better sense than Halbrand being Sauron from the first. And all along I have thought the writers could have brought Gandalf into this series, and at the end have him go back to Valinor or somewhere for awhile before re-entering Middle-earth in the Third Age. I'm cool either way with our Istar -- whether he's the Good Blue Wizard or Gandalf, I'm good. I'm just so very glad he is not "peril." So now what am I going to do for the next two years...? (Actually, I do know -- I'm re-reading the Silmarillion and going to start listening to the SilmFilm project) Thanks again, y'all! These have been an incredible 8 weeks!
During the storm in Episode 2, when Galadriel says “Bind yourself to me”, Halbrand gives her a look that’s definitely more than “Wow, that’s nice of you,” as though a seed were planted. Then, as he prepares to do as she says, she’s struck by lightning!
yall should definitely read the interviews done with the Halbrand actor and the showrunners cuz they definitely answer some of the "doesnt make sense" questions. they explicitly say that it was a chance meeting on the boat and that Sauron was repentive during the beginning of the show. and that SPOILERS Halbrand has been Sauron the whole time lol
I did think it was suspicious his raft looked like Sauron's helmet. But I brushed it off as a possible misdirect. Funny that Vickers did not even know until after E3.
Out of curiosity, did they explain how the tree was poisoned? Gil-Galad saw the first poisoned leaf around the same time Galadriel and Halbrand met. Just curious how they’re squaring that circle and hadn’t heard an explanation.
My guess for the Stranger is that he is indeed "blue Gandalf"... Amazon doesn't have the rights for the real names of the blue wizards, so the character may be called "Istar" for the entire show, but he will play the part of a blue wizard, and probably even wear something blue at some point, so he can be called "blue wizard" by someone in the show, and there will be more and more clues that he is also Gandalf. And if they do that, he may die at the end of the show, that way, he can come back as Gandalf at the start of the third age.
For the record, I’m ok with many of the choices the writers made that make the series more “modern” looking. For me they add new textures to the story. When I sometimes don’t especially love them, I can at least accept them. But also for the record, and for the n’th time - I think a conflicted Sauron, except in the “sorry I got caught” sense, SUUUUUKS! Making him just one of the guys trying to work things out in this topsy-turvy world who in the end tragically chooses evil, is a serious and fundamental violation of the rules of the (original, foundational) game IMHO. Tolkien’s world is NOT “Dynasty” - it is nothing if not a world of faerie stories. And making a Sauron like he apparently is here is probably akin to what Tolkien called “a knowing winking” at the internal magic - strictly a NON-faerie tale, ironic mode of story telling. In other words the writers breaking the most fundamental rule, and in a very passé way - they just couldn’t resist because it is is part of the air we all breath these days. You can go pretty far with the adaptation, but when you do that Tolkien said it becomes no longer a faerie story, but something else dressed up in faerie story garb. And there is nothing less “of faerie” than a fake faerie. Maybe lots of people that are pissed off about the series don’t break it down in those terms, but I believe they know it when they see it - and feel it. Almost nobody - other than TV writers it would seem - really yearns for a deconstructionist Middle Earth, or ironic dragons for that matter. The same argument can of course be made with respect to other details in the series, but this one is really the core issue. Maybe things could still be saved by having all the apparently conflicted stuff Halbrand/Sauron said and did - retconned to the gills - turn out to be intentional deceptions, with multiple “Halbrands” and Sauron’s spirit shadowfaxing all over the place making mischief. But you REALLY have to twist what they have already shown into an epic pretzel to make it come out in the end. I feel like this is ultimately what Corey was struggling with in increasing desperation (and failing to resolve) during his psychiatric-couch style rant about Halbrand(s). It was super funny, but it is clear that Corey - like a lot of us - is still in the bargaining stage of grief.
So you think they made Sauron appear too good? Like Annatar appeared too good? ‘Cause it’s pretty obvious he just thinks he’s right to deceive and manipulate for his ends. (Tolkien wrote that he wanted to end strife, he hated the marring and ugliness of the world that Morgoth created - even while he served him, and he thought he could fix it efficiently if he ruled it all.) Why is this being compared to a game rather than what Tolkien actually wrote? Also, that grief is legit. When people have been scammed, they go through a grieving process. The show runners knew what they were doing writing a scamming Sauron.
@@mrs.manrique7411 My criticism of the series isn’t about whether S is or isn’t written “realistically”. If you haven’t read it already go and read Tolkien’s essay “On Fairy Stories” and then see if what I wrote makes sense or not to you.
@@MarkoBotsaris I've read it, and I'm also not sure how it relates, or what your complaint is. There are a lot of ways the character of "Halbrand" can be criticized, and you seem to be implying multiple angles without making it clear to me why you think this show is a deconstruction of Middle-Earth.
@@joelpartee594 I feel like I said it pretty clearly above - I’m saying the series violates in many points, but to greatest effect with the way Sauron is presented, the “rules” for how fairy stories work that Tolkien set out in his essay. I think making him TOO human and conflicted - by that I mean genuinely conflicted and not faking it to seduce - is one of those “winking at the fairy story rules” that gradually break the spell. When Sauron, arguably the most supernatural element of the series, is characterized this way - as if he requires human motivations and internal conflicts - it is “winking at the internal magic” of the story - the one thing that Tolkien said you must NOT do in a fairy story. Of course Galadriel’s status and mystique within the world is punctured in this way as well. The forging of the rings - also punctured. These are not easy problems to solve within the series, I get it! This is in contrast to what Peter Jackson did with the world which while it had a few issues basically preserved the “fairy story” FEEL that many people emotionally respond to in the original. As Tolkien pointed out in the essay, fairy stories have a special place, purpose and feel that is distinct, and people can feel when something is wrong even when they can’t put a finger on it. I’m saying I think this TYPE of thing is the ultimate root, when you strip away quibbles about lore changes, plot structure, bad writing and so on, of why many people find the series problematical, even abhorrent. I’m not in the later category- just sayin’. It just feels wrong if you’ve read the original books and are already invested in the world. Anyone can make an argument that I’m wrong about that of course, or that Tolkien is mistaken, but he wrote in “On Fairy Stories” that if you violate the basic rules the story is no longer a fairy story but something else, and particularly problematical if it is still pretending to be a fairy story. Tolkien gives examples there of the ‘winking’ (which blends slowly into ‘mocking’) kind of stories he knew and disliked from his youth. Another example - distinct form the essay - is how he disliked the Narnia books, even though they were written by a good friend. He felt there should be nothing overtly allegorical about a true fairy story. There are enough examples of this in the series to start a drinking game. One example that is kind of funny, and even might have been ok if not for the cumulative effect over the whole series, is where Adar kind of winces at Galadriel saying the word “orc” and replies to the effect (if not the precise language) that “it’s ‘Uruk’, we consider ‘orc’ derogatory”. 😂 Don’t get me wrong, the kind of people that think there are “orcs” in the REAL world - and I’m NOT taking about people who go to Comic-Con here - are far, far worse than a small group of show runners that can’t write a good fairy story. In fact, I’d rather have seen a deconstructionist series done entirely from the point of view of the orcs. But it would arguably no longer be a fairy story - or maybe a fairy story from an alternative middle earth universe. Anyway, it is this disconnect between the rules of fairy stories and the rules of the real world that, for instance, make things like the spoof “LOTR Unused Audio Commentary by Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky”, which you can find on the web, so hilarious. It is hilarious NOT because we believe (or don’t) in the underlying political theory. It is hilarious, albeit in a highbrow way, because the narrators so blatantly DON’T treat LOTR according to fairy story logic. We can enjoy the humor from a removed perspective, but if Howard and Noam were actual orcs in the movie saying this stuff it would be a mockery of fairy story logic - a Monty Python movie. Returning to the main point, Tolkien wrote if you puncture the spell created by the rules of the fairy story game the spell is broken. For whatever the reasons, be they noble or sinister, the spell is broken - like that time-travel movie where Christopher Reeves goes back in time by dressing up and believing … but later on gets sucked back to the present when he discovers a coin from his own time mistakenly left in his pocket. We DO get a lot of stuff these days, including television series, that play with mixing story types - and some of it is even very good. But they are not pretending to be ACTUAL fairy stories. A lot of this of course is the eye of the beholder - Tolkien himself says they are a matter of personal tastes. I’m just reaching for an explanation of why so many people had such a visceral negative reaction to the series. There are a number of ways to still enjoy the show, in addition to hate-watching. I’m just saying that once the fairy story spell is broken it starts to become something that conflicts with the source material in spirt, than in mere lore details.
@@MarkoBotsaris I appreciate you explaining your position. I think there are multiple ways this series diverges from being a fairy-story according to Tolkien's definition, which I also believe to be true of The Silmarillion as published by Christopher. TRoP is a serialized drama set inside a few lines of Tolkien's appendices, and doesn't really claim to be anything else. It can't fail as an adaptation given that there's not enough source material to adapt into more than a ten minute short. It has to be its own story, and there's no particular reason for that story to be a fairy-story that Tolkien (or anyone else interested in Tolkien's essay) would recognize as a fairy-story. I still don't see Halbrand/Sauron as being in conflict with Tolkien, given what Tolkien himself wrote about Sauron's persona as Annatar and Tolkien's references to Sauron not beginning as wholly evil, and ambiguously repentant at the beginning of the Second Age. Yes, portraying Sauron as sympathetic (and portraying most of the conflicts of the show as morally grey) is outside the purview of Recovery, Escape, and Consolation, but it's not outside the character of Sauron as described by Tolkien. Not every story set in Tolkien's Middle-Earth has to be a recognizable fairy-story. As an aside, I found Jackson's films to be very much in conflict with Tolkien's writings in ways that "broke the spell" for me, such as the detailed depiction of violence, the erasure of songs and poems, and the addition of very modern and cinematic humour. They're fine movies for what they are, but I don't enjoy them nearly as much as Corey Olsen clearly and sincerely does (as evidenced by the frequency with which he references them during the otherwise wonderful Exploring The Lord of the Rings podcast). This show is similarly different from anything Tolkien wrote, but it's not being so in a way that bothers me because there isn't enough actual source material for TRoP to follow or deviate from - it has to make up its own stories in order to be a show, while TLotR films had many more chances to leave written material in or refrain from adding new scenes and dialogue.
2:41:29 The problem with using the elven rings is that the elves stopped wearing and using them once the one ring is forged (they only start using them in the 3rd age when the one ring is lost). Forging them first gives them some time to show what the elven rings can do before they have to go into hiding for the rest of the show.
@@Lfilpo "And while [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them. But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them. Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring." (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
Sure, 'openly' makes it possible to think 'but they used them secretly'. But then Elrond says about the 3: "But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One." So it looks like even the 3 cannot be used savely as long as Sauron wields the One.
The production value in your videos is astounding!! I just found you guys and I’m so jealous I didn’t have you guys along the way for season 1. Plz don’t stop these! I’ll be subbed and rdy for season 2 to go along that journey with you guys!!
lets talk about Halbrand thing. I think that Sauron were in Halbrands body but in season 2 we will see sauron in Elven body as Anatar. I think that this is most likely possible..
Personally, I think that he'll return to Eregion as Halbrand when Galadriel is out, and trick Celebrimbor into thinking that Galadriel's the one to be suspicious of.
@@tomasholub. they would need to get special permission from the estate to use the name, since it doesn't appear in the Appendices that they have rights to, but I think I heard that they have gotten such special exemptions for a few other things so it's possible!
I liked it overall, but I felt like the pacing and editing choices were less than optimal across season 1. Too much time was spent in some areas and then others felt too rushed.
Found a youtuber that that edits for a living. He re-edited episode 7 when the Orcs attached the Southlanders and his cuts and re-organizing of the main attack, along with a suggestion of adding a scene similar to one in The 300, of a little boy lets the heroes know the village was under attack. So in ROP a quick scene of a boy (or girl) who gets separated from the villagers as they are rushing to take refuge in the "keep" and finds the Numenrons camp, telling them of the impending attack, making that a connector to the action in the village so they can ride to the rescue. When he put it all together the narrative flow from scene to scene was much better, and the attack more impactful emotionally. Seriously. Amazon has money. They didn't think to hire better editors? And a short scene addition would have connected that far better. Lets hope season 2 will improve. I mean, up is really the only direction from here.
But Finrod is reembodied in Valinor? Not dead? And she of all people should know that. Her father was born because Miriel refused reembodiment and Finwe remarried. Galadriel knows everything there is to know about elvish reembodiment.
@@Enkaptaton Even when reembodying happens, it tends to be rather slow. Galadriel wouldn't have any reason to think Finrod has been reembodied or would be for a long time.
@@Enkaptaton how, her whole coming into existence was because Miriel refused to be reembodied - otherwise Galadriel's father Finarfin would not have been born at all - as Galadriel's grandfather Finwe would not have been allowed to remarry - reembodiment and its refusal is the very basis of Galadriel's very own existence - she simply must know of it. And she saw Luthien reembodied while they both lived in Ossiriand after Luthien's and Beren's return from the dead so Galadriel does know well that it can take as short as 3 sun years. Luthien died a few months (up to a year) after Finrod's death and was running around and having a baby in Tol Galen just a few years later - and Galadriel was then her neighbour in the very area. And Galadriel's for sure knows as in RoP she is close friends with Luthien's great-grandson Elrond. BTW Luthien was Galadriel's own mother Eärwen's first cousin, so they were quite closely related.
The writers made the 'I passed the test' moment for Galadriel in LOTR a more explicit challenge by Sauron in that she repeats his words first spoken in ROP thousands of years before. It was stunning to see the moment when this test was laid before her.
The writers cheapen the moment Galadriel says this in LOTR by having her simply echoing Sauron's offer and her initial denial of joining with him, and because now we see this as a test she already passed thousands of years before. This is not a positive effect, and very uncool by the writers.
@Cain Darin I believe the difference lies in first refusing the person and a union of sorts with him. The second with the Ring is more a refusal of it's power which she could take, could use it to finally throw him down and take him place. One plays more on the connection she's formed with him, one plays more with a desire herself to rule and defeat him.
@@davidbeer5015 Retroactively using someone else's powerfully-written scene to ultimately diminish it's impact by having Galadriel quote Sauron himself back to Frodo is something I wish I had the power to un-see and un-hear. That it was used in this show as almost a marriage proposal from Sauron to Galadriel "first" is, in my view, unforgivable. Galadriel was married to Celeborn when she met Annatar/Sauron, and distrusted him from the outset as she was the second-most insightful elf of any age. This is not a minor change from the lore, but a wholesale reworking of Galadriel's character and history. You may enjoy this, and I don't begrudge anyone that right, but this is a complete reversal of Galadriel as Tolkien intended her to be.
@Cain Darin well, Galadriel is already married to Celeborn ;) and while she doesn’t see through Halbrand at first (whether he reappears as Annatar is another question, but if he does, I’m sure she’d be more suspicious), she eventually does. She is still pretty insightful, based on some of her conversations, but she’s been on a revenge path for a while as well. I’m wary of staking claims of “this is not what Tolkien intended,” mainly because Tolkien himself has retconned things before as well and, imo, we don’t necessarily have his final version of the 2nd Age story and characters. Regardless, It’s also not the first time characters were altered somewhat for a screen adaptation.
@@davidbeer5015 Tolkien was pretty clear about Galadriel. No one expects an absolutely faithful adaptation, but you don't adapt Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" by finger painting roses in their place. We could go round and round about this, and I'm sure we would never come to agreement. I find the Rings of Power to be a Payne and McKay production with a few Tolkien names thrown in. The idea that she just happens upon Sauron as she's swimming in the middle of the ocean and pushes him back to the dark side while nearly falling in love with him but rejecting him in the end, is ludicrous writing by any serious estimation. Just think about that and try to make it credible. Anyway, it's clear I don't belong in this chat because I think Corey gives the writers way too much credit and focuses on tenuous "themes" he's uncovered and made connections to, while ignoring what I think are objectively massive plot holes and insipid dialogue. Be that as it may, I'm not here to rain on this chat's parade, so I will agree to disagree and be on my merry way. Thanks for the civil discussion, and I hope you continue to enjoy the second season.
I don’t think that Galadriel’s motivation is revenge. In the scene with Halbrand in the smithy she says not, but says she “cannot stop”. To Elrond, she says “Without [her sword] what would I be?”. Defeating Sauron (a worthy motive for all sorts of reasons other than revenge) has been her sole purpose for so long that she can’t imagine another way of life. Her unshakeable conviction that Sauron is still a threat is either a true foreshadowing or a necessary axiom underpinning her entire purpose, or a bit of both. The fight against Sauron is also, as symbolised by the dagger, her last link to her brother, the last task in which they can be said to be acting together. No doubt these motivations are fed by thoughts of anger and revenge, but they aren’t the central motivation.
I do wonder why Galadriel’s motivation was conceptualised as it was. Her actual motivation, per the text, was the desire to rule a land of her own. There would have been so much synergy between her motivations and Sauron’s motivations (to heal or order the land by ruling it) to work with. Perhaps they thought it doing it this way would make Galadriel a more sympathetic character.
YES!!! When we have gone through extreme loss, we hold onto things more and want to control what happens more than anything! That essence of control fits with her lust for power.
2:55:00 'Cirdan is the only certified Elf with a beard'. Hmmm... "Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father [cf. XII:365-66 n.61] was exceptional, being only early in his second." VT 41
If elven rings have powers to preserve their race, it explains why Galadriel let them forge it. In order to stop Sauron, they have to stay in Middle-Earth, keep building their cities, and create armies, right? That's how I interpreted Galadriel's decision. I was more curious about Adar's quote mentioned by Celebrimbor. Did he hear it from Halbrand when they spoke in the forge or was Celebrimbor influenced long before the events of episode 8? Also, Gil-Galad's blind trust in the whole "Mythril and dying souls" situation implies some sort of deception since episode 1. A lot to think about until the next season comes out🤔
I actually thought that since Sauron can’t be in two places at once, that perhaps when he was in Eregion as Halbrand, he would also shapeshift into an elf in the forge and speak to Celebrimbor as this other person.
@@JohnPopcorn06 That’s true. Celebrimbor’s character development by Tolkien is usurped by RoP Galadriel. His self control while being tempted with loving a married woman of one of the lords of the elves. His temperance even in his creativity and forging. His realization that Annatar had gotten too involved in the making of the rings. I can see the folding of his character arc into RoP Galadriel’s grief and need to control.
One question in lore Sauron never touched nor took part in making of the Three and that;s why they were "unsullied" so not tainted by dark power in the same way the Seven and Nine were...so in the show Sauron not only touched the material they were made of that mithril nugget but also participated in the work experimentation though left before the final work is completed...so that must mean now that the Three ARE tainted and evil now :). The motivation behind the Rings in Tolkien's version is clear, the Elves wanted power to preserve and heal the hurts of the earth, to make their lands beautiful islands of bliss in manner of Valinor, the Undying Lands beyond the sea, they wanted this power to stop the natural processes of aging of all things which were weariness for elves who changed little they wanted some measure of control over forces of nature, as Sauron used the elves weak spots, their desire for knowledge used against them, their ambition to make great works to influence the world around them out of their love of mortal lands they inhabited. As for Gil-galad being deceived...well it's only conjecture...it's like saying that things that didn't happen in the show are evidence :). The Three Rings were SOLE invention, thought, idea of Celebrimbor, who was their sole maker, he made them compeltely alone because he wanted to test himself with the skills he learned from Sauron disguised and made them with different purpose and power "understanding, making and healing, to preserve all things unstained" that's their power.
But not remaining silent would give the elves the ability to catch a guy on foot and eliminating sauron eliminates the dumb tree blight. So no, just bad writing mostly
Is there a clip/video anywhere of the crew’s live reaction to the halbrand reveal? Been binging this series this week and want to see the moment it all sank in 😂
We already know this. Birds aren't real, they are Maiar spirits taking the form of mythical creatures that vaguely resemble the actual real flying beasts like those the Nazgul ride or Dragons.
Was it really worth spending 30 mins of an early episode to establish an agreement to build a forge that only had about 3 minutes of screen time in the final episode?
Yeah, that was rather strange. Pretty much everything that happened in Eregion in this one episode, I was expecting to take the bulk of next season to show.
Likely the importance of the forge agreement was more on setting up Elrond and Durin’s plot and mithril’s importance. Though maybe the forge will have some purpose in later seasons.
@@Halfwit_The_Brave keep in mind though the tower was built while the elves were planning on getting those “vast quantities of mithril” celebrimbor hoped for. Even then though the process of testing mithril for the crown/rings and its alloys seemed to require lots of tools, people, and explosions.
@ Zach the fact the forge was built for large quantities of mithril does not mean it would be a smaller forge because they didn’t get the mithril. It would still be a huge forge. Also the forge explodes and then moments later it is rebuilt and cleaned up. The writing and the editing of this show is stupid. In addition the actual story is worse. The 9 and 7 rings of power should be crafted first.
Fantastic as always! Rings & Realms has been integral to my enjoyment of the series. Not that I wouldn't like it without, but has instead endlessly enriched it. Thank you to all involved! Hopeful and excited for more Rings & Realms content to come in the wait time for Season 2
While I think that Gandalf being the Stranger a missed opportunity, I kinda like the idea of him roaming middle-earth earning all his names, starting with Incanus, going through Tharkûn and Mithrandir, as he begomes known all around. Harbrand was the only thing that I found hard to swallow. Through the entire season, I was hoping that Whoever was Sauron had a Palantir, so he could influence Celebrimbor at a distance, without blowing up his cover.
I really hope he is NOT gandalf or Romestamo but something entirely else! And if they DO make Celebrian the daughter of Hlbrand then i'm gonna be frustrated and angry!
@@Aurora2097 lol, what? Hahaha. You just threw me for a loop! Since they mentioned Celeborn, I’m pretty sure Celebrian will be his true daughter. I didn’t get the impression that Galadriel and Halbrand had any time alone while he wasn’t sick, and even that alone time was “riding for three days without stopping.” Adar was their prisoner, so they couldn’t go off somewhere, lol. Like what? She didn’t care about him at all before that battle either. Anyway, I’m REALLY looking forward to her reunion with Celeborn. Never thought I’d say that about pretty boy, I-want-to-rule-a-kingdom-with-you-too, dwarf-hating Celeborn, but here we are. Morfydd Clark spoke of Celeborn with such love and longing that I actually thought, “Maybe Galadriel married Celeborn for a reason?” 😅😂
Thank you so much to Corey, Maggie, and the production crew. Your analysis and the show has increased my enjoyment of the series immensely! I know analysis is not everyones cup of tea, but the quality and enthusiasm of everyones work will surely convert more in the seasons to come. Best of luck folks; look forward to season two, and any inbetween episodes (thoughts after a rewatch?), you might do!
I saw "giving the dagger away" as giving up the way of revenge she was on so far. As well letting go the past and to focus on the future. There were so many scenes where only the dagger, when she was looking on it, reminded her why she was on the revenge trip - now its gone - of cause not her memories - but at least the only personal physical thing that reminded her
I realized while watching this video that there's another way to look at that symbolism - if she sees the Rings as a weapon to use against Sauron, she's not giving up her brother's dagger at all, she's literally turning it into the new weapon she'll strike at his killer with. I'm no longer sure that she's given up on vengeance, just changed tactics.
Sauron never made the 16 rings. The elves made them, with Saurons teachings and help. The 3 were created after the 16, by Celebrimbor with no help from Sauron. He did use Saurons techniques, which is why the 3 are still bound to the 1. By the way, all the rings were for the elves, to help Sauron seduce the elves. It was only after the 1 was created and the elves detected it, and removed their rings, that Sauron changed his plans, recovered the 16 from the elves, and distributed them to dwarves and men instead.
I read Galadriels push to forge the rings as her recognizing the elves can't leave Middle Earth now Sauron is back, and they need the rings to be able to stay. There's this "welp you've made the bed, now lie in it" kind of feel, right? Meanwhile, the creation of three, instead of the one Celebrimbor thought up, or the two Sauron recommended (for who and who there HalBRand? Hmmmm?! Sneaky twerp) does fit with the "The three were forged in secret" especially when it's possible Sauron figures Galadriel blew his cover and they recognize the rings are an evil idea. Also, I noticed something kind of simple, but I feel perhaps significant in costuming: Sauron is wearing a neck torc (a Celtic symbol of authority and wealth). One other character wears a torc: it's Waldreg. What do you think that's about?
My cousin works on this series. When area split Sauron, he literally split him in two, the stranger, and the stranger. They cast away his magical power on the meteor
@@drtyprior Yes, yes. Whait, what indeed! I think he means "When *Adar split Sauron". And maybe the second stranger means... Halbrand? No, Halbi has magical power still.
Corey's denial about the Halbrand/Sauron reveal is hilarious. I think he really wants there to be something deeper, when in reality the writers are not that clever, and are just playing fast and loose with Tolkien lore.
@@bl687 well, I'm happy for you, and I mean not to be rude. But.... how? How can one be a fan of Tolkien's writings, and also this show which completely contradicts and debases his legendarium? I'm not a troll, it's a genuine question. I had high hopes for this show and the showrunners talked a big talk about going back to the book yada yada. But at every turn they have scrapped Tolkien's version of events for a cardboard, 2 dimensional Hollywood version. What am I missing?
@@doomsdaybooty1072 well, since you have challenged me, how about explaining to me how you feel it contradicts and "debases the legendarium"? And if I feel like it, maybe I'll share thoughts on them. But honestly, there's enough going on in the show to support these intelligent, thoughtful Tolkien fans (hosts) discussing it in a thought provoking manner for 3 hours... so it can't be the worst thing ever...
@@bl687 well, if you like it, I can accept that. I don't want to try and persuade you not to. I meant no offense. It's my job to ask questions after dark
I think Nori and Poppy needed to separate for a time to allow Poppy to grow. If Nori stayed around she would be the main one to become the Pathfinder. Now, Poppy has a chance to grow and show her strength, which she may not have done if Nori stayed around. In relation to the three rings for the elves, Galadrial mentions that the rings are only to be made for the elves with no interference or handled by any others so they are pure and in secret. Doesn't that mean that Sauron won't have control over those 3 rings, immediately, anyway, that is why I believe Galadrial mentioned making 3 to balance out the power.
It's a weird move where show wants you to think someone is sauron so badly it has to be a misdirection - and then uses that as a misdirection for readers. Did they think it was a perfect compromise between the reader and the casual experience? I'm not sure I've ever seen it. Any other prominent examples? It is slightly frustrating as a reader.
Yeah, if it had only been the Halbrand stuff, I might think it was just us viewers reading too much into it, but the stuff with the Stranger and even Adar initially shows that SOME misdirection was going on.
I appreciate learning about Estel and Amdir, but I have a few questions. Is Estel really just resignation? I’m not sure Elrond’s request to Gil-Galad is a lack of Estel. It’s a plea to do whatever can be done in the hope that things, no matter how hopeless it seems, may somehow work out to a good end. This doesn’t seem different to Aragorn and Gandalf entreating Theoden to give it his all, or the Council of Elrond agreeing that Frodo will take the Ring to Mordor, or the decision by Aragorn et al to go to the Black Gate to help buy Frodo time. Should they all have just resigned themselves and said “Oh well, it’s not about us… let’s just allow fate to unfold.” This seems an odd reading of Tolkien to me. Hence I do not agree that all the elves are lacking Estel because they are wanting to preserve what they see is good.
Oh one other thing. I think Tar Palantir is not talking to Miriel when he says “I see what you do in the dark of night” but to Pharazon. He just notices someone is there but doesn’t know who. Only when he hears a female voice does he shift and think it’s his daughter. This makes a lot more sense since Pharazon is also by his bedside, and it’s more likely Pharazon is up to bad stuff while the King sleeps than Miriel, who seems to love her father and want to honor his wishes.
I don't think the "lack of Estel" reading is due to a lack of resignation, but to the seeming despair they have. Yes, those with Estel can and should still do their best, but the Elves in the series are acting as though if they fail, it's the end of everything.
@@jj48 okay true but again I don’t see how that’s different from the instances I mentioned from LOTR? Also I’m not sure they’re in such despair or anything. It’s not like they’re weeping and gnashing their teeth: they’re very upset that they might have to leave middle earth which is both bad for them but also bad for ME, especially as they are it’s main protectors.
I’ve been pretty convinced Halbrand is Sauron from the get go. We know it was weird for Gil Galad to send Galadriel to the west. Was someone whispering in his ear? There’s the whole continuity issue but Sauron was around in elf country dropping his hints re the rings. So did he poison the tree just in time for Galadriel to sail and for him to then follow and the poisoning then being discovered. Thus creating a problem that only Miithril can solve. Itself a deception within the show. Halbrand/Sauron then presents the answer and thus gets the alloy and beginnings of what he needs to plant the weakness that the one ring will exploit. A ruse that he advises Galadriel to use in the prison of Numenor. Ie create a problem that you have the answer to. So we can explain how he knew to be on the sea; because he basically sent her. Also Ador claims he tried to kill Sauron. Halbrand/Sauron goes to kill Adar saying do you remember me? Because he was Sauron at that time. Maybe in a different form? He’s been laying his plans for centuries. After all they were all of them deceived.
I don't think Elven death quite works like that. When Elves die, their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos, where they wait. Eventually, they can get new bodies and return, but sometimes this can take quite a while; and for some Elves, it may essentially last as long as Arda lasts. Now, for Finrod, particularly, I believe Tolkien did say he only spent a short time there and then lived on in Valinor, but I'd point out two things: 1. We don't know if that's happened in the show or not. 2. Even if it has, Tolkien indicated that it was a pretty rare thing, so Galadriel would have no reason to think that's what happened.
@@clownofthetimes6727 Yeah, not sure where that's going. They made the distinction early on, but don't seem to have done much with it. Hopefully we'll find out more later.
Remember this one Professor? Tolkien Professor @tolkienprof · 12 sep. Top three things I hope are not true in the RoP: 1. Durin's Bane emerges during the show 2. Halbrand is Sauron 3. The Stranger is Gandalf (Team Blue Wizard!) None will be deal breakers for me, but I'll be disappointed. So i reckon you're very much disappointed in the series?
The perplexing part is how he found some parts of Jacksons's movies to be cringe worthy upon a first viewing (So did I, so I never faulted him for it), but now he pretends that this garbage tier writing is palatable.
@@-JazzHands- I don't think I've ever heard him criticize the writing of Jackson's movies; just some themes/events (and coherence, in the case of the Hobbit films). Examples?
I dont like that I agree, but I agree that I dont really like some of these changes made. Ive waited until the end to decide, but man, I wish they hadnt changed the main story about the rings.
@@Halfwit_The_Brave And I can live with a lot of changes to a lot of stuff in an adaptation. Im not one of those who needs a 1:1 book/screen converting. But the changing of the rings really took it too far for me and makes all the smaller changes also feel worse. I was waiting to see if their changes would work in their adaptation and having now seen the end (so far) I think it doesnt.
On the Halbrand/Sauron section. We can make up all these theories, but really it is just bad writing. Corey you should be hired as the main script writer.
If Sauron assumed the form of Halbrand the place in which it would make most sense to me was Eregion. The vaguery around Halbrand's 'wounding' in Mordor makes for a compelling peiod in which the switch could have taken place. If we go with the latter then I can can envision a season 2 narrative in which Isildur is joined by Halbrand in Mordor leaving the audience under the impression he's with Sauron but later having revealed that it is really the original Halbrand. Creates mystery and tension in the second season and helps address the problems arising as a consequence of the decision made here at the end of season 1.
Ah yes the stages of grief with Hal-ron
Gil-Galad, holding the piece of mythril: "What good is this, a tanning salon for ants?!"
31:00 I think I get Galadriel's motivation at the end. If she confesses bringing Sauron to Eregion, Gil-galad will most certainly go ballistic, pull the project & put the Elves on the next boat to Valinor. She sees in the rings a chance to not only keep the Elves in ME but also give them a power with which to resist Sauron. She deems it worth the risk & I guess is proved right in the end.
I don't know if she is proven right considering everything that goes down after the forging of the one ring. The elves take their rings off and sauron declares war and chaos ensues. In this version/retelling galadriel is a complete failure
Agreed!
@@warheit13 Nope, she will be proven right in the end. Forging the Elven rings immediately, without Sauron's assistance, was the right call. All three rings will be used later on to assist the Fellowship in some way. The Fellowship's stops in Rivendell and Lothlorien are essential, both realms given power by their ring-bearers. And, of course, Gandalf is a part of the Fellowship. His ring plays an important role as well, which is why Cirdan gave it to him in the first place. Galadriel has made some bad calls, and some good calls this season, but her last play of the season was definitely a good call. Far from a complete failure. She feels guilty in her role in Sauron's return, but she isn't totally to blame for what's to come, and now she'll shift tactics in handling Sauron's aggression. I'm excited to watch her journey unfold.
@@nathonaj9154 Thank you for your voice of reason. I'm on board with you, there.
So It is better stay silent and let Sauron do what he wants... Smart decision... Basically she is responsable for Mordor being a thing, Numenor's fall in the future, helping Sauron, forging the rings with Sauron influence on them... She is the real evil...
"Slim Shady and the death-moth ladies" sounds like a very particular kind of band
^_^
They're opening for The Dwarf Formerly Known As Durin.
@@Esquarious The Dwarf Formerly Known As *Prince*
@@mrs.manrique7411 Ouch! Too soon!
@@jj48 🤣😅
We finally made it over 3 hours! Thank you to Corey, Maggie and everyone who worked on this season of Rings & Realms. Looking forward to more discussions moving forward!!
I watched an interview with Charlie Vickers, Halbrand/Sauron’s actor on this episode and he does seem to see the raft scene as him using the connection he does share with Galadriel to cement a useful ally that can continue to get him to places he might otherwise have difficulty accessing. He doesn’t really care for her and had no intention of ruling as equals with her. He is willing to say just about anything to manipulate her to say yes at the moment though. I also think he is speaking in half-truths as generally the best liars do. The best lies have nuggets of truth in them after all.
See, I like the idea that Sauron, when he's in Galadriel's mind is toying her memories of Halbrand and manipulating them, and that Halbrand may have been Halbrand up until a certain point, and then Sauron killed him and took his form. What that point is exactly is hard to determine. It could only be times in which he's alone. It's hard to make logical sense of it because there's a lot of evidence that would disprove this idea. It could be after Orodruin erupts because of how Halbrand is towards Adar. Unless they actually had a history, but I dunno why Sauron would say that Adar is his enemy and that's why he fought with Galadriel/Numenoreans against Adar if they didnt have an actual history. It could have happened on Numenor with Sauron already being there, and chose to take Halbrand's form when he sees Galadriel is there and decided to see what she was going on about. Still, hard to prove at this point. And it could just be that Sauron was Halbrand the entire time and the whole "why was he on the raft in the first place as Sauron?" is just one of those things they'll never explain.
@@grayden4138 Hopefully they explain the raft thing in season 2. The fact they did meet on the raft is fine imo, Tolkien heavily liked the use of "chance" meetings as Rings and Realms points out. My assumption I have gathered is after Adar killed his mortal form he was in a sort of exile. He tells Galadriel he was driven from his land by orcs, which if that was the case makes sense. I actually suspected something like that once Adar was introduced. It takes time for Sauron to regain strength when his physical form is killed so he could be trying to lay low for awhile. Why that was on the ocean specifically I have no idea. Possibly trying to reach Numenor? He apparently was on a ship with those other humans before the sea monster attacked so that could be.
As for the times Halbrand seems to be in turmoil when alone, which I think is just when he is holding the bag when the guards arrive in episode 5, this seems like a more three dimensional version of Sauron than we got in the books so he could be conflicted over using the opportunity Galadriel is giving him to kill Adar and take over Mordor versus getting his fresh start in Numenor. Maybe he eventually planned on corrupting the kingdom of men at that point but for now we don't know.
WOW it was conveyed and written so poorly you need an actor to retcon it with his own take as if he were the writer himself which he is not! Shitshow. Horrible abomination of a show and a rape of Tolkiens lore. Never has there ever been such an abysmal “adaptation”
My favorite thing that he said in that interview is that he imagined Sauron getting a rush when meeting someone else as powerful as Galadriel. His interpretation of Tolkien’s Sauron almost “repenting” I felt was right on.
@@nonsense2369 I’m not sure if you know what retcons are. He is Sauron the Deceiver, if you didn’t go into that scene skeptical of his motivations then that is on you. Actors also can have opinions on things and can influence the work. If you wanted Sauron to spell out for you “oh by the way let me explain how much of what I said is true and what wasn’t” in the show then I’m not sure you know what is good or bad writing. Show is fine, sometimes pretty good. People overhype how bad it is because they somehow think adaptations can’t change things from the source material or it is bad. It has genuine writing issues but I have seen much, much worse adaptations/tv shows.
A huge thank you to you and the team for all the hard work put into this project. You all have enhanced the experience of this show extraordinarily.
Totally, its been wonderful. I have learnt so much about thematic analysis and visual storytelling.
And enjoying that Amazon fat check
I hope the DO give a big donation to signum universiry! Corey did very hard work to rationalize and be generous and very open towards the show... it HAS to,pay off,
I give the season a 5/10
I had a overall great time because I love Tolkien but there are many things I greatly disliked because I love Tolkien.
One thought, only the elves know that Halbrand is Sauron. The south landers and numemorians have no idea that he’s not the king they thought he was so he could still come back to rule them and hand out rings to other lords of men in the area. And the dwarves don’t even know he exists so someone showing up giving them nifty rings of power that don’t necessarily have a reason to distrust him.
More specifically, it seems that at the moment, only Galadriel knows Halbrand is Sauron.
@@jj48 right. But even if she tells the rest of the elves the rest of the world wouldn’t know until the elves decided to send a messenger.
Yeah why on Earth has Galadriel not told anyone 😂 So dumb.
@@tomhidley6763 didnt you hear what Sauron said to her while playing in her mind? Come on
"great creation requires sacrifice" I feel like that line will come back when making the one ring.
I laughed out loud for a solid minute when I saw the length of this video. I'M STRAPPING IN PROFESSOR.
Thank goodness for playback speeds!
Thank you to everybody for putting this up. This has been such a great after-show hangout for me.
Same!
Same. I’m so happy this exists.
“Maybe they didn’t make this show for me.” Oh man that one got me right in the gut. I’m right there with you Corey. But why didn’t they make it for us? What’s wrong with us? That stupid raft…
Trust me, its not us, its them.
There is nothing wrong with you -- the problem is Amazon, Pain & Decay, and the "myth" of the "modern audience".
In the show Galadria says the rings should be a power for 'the Elves alone'. I think "Hal-ron" is going to whisper in the ears of the Dwarves and Men that 'The Elves don't want you to have this power but I can make power rings for you...".
I think Halbrand is going to return to Celebrimbor when Galadriel is gone. "Galadriel said not to trust me? Well, didn't she also say not to help the other races? Something's clearly wrong with her! We should help the other races, and then try to figure out how to help poor Galadriel!"
@@jj48 I'm thinking he's going to show up as someone else, but that's not a super solid theory. You could well be right.
not a bad idea there. seeds of conflict. imagine the greed that would have been going on though in those times with the elves having those rings. ALL the rings. I can see Sauron using that to turn many tribes of Men against the elves.
1:27:22 The last view we get of Númenor is not only the city and the harbor shrouded with mourning flags commemorating death, but at the same time, in the background, one of those memorials to fake immortality in the likeness of a former king, frozen in a larger-than-life stone monument.
okay but Eärendil is neither a king nor is he dead
@@isakri9459 Not Eärendil - it's about Tar-Palantir who has just died. Pharazôn has been making sure his likeness is preserved so he can be "immortalized" along with all the prior kings, according to the tradition, and as we pan across the harbor where the ships are draped in black flags of mourning, the shot ends with one of those massive stone carvings of a former king in the background. The juxtaposition of these two symbols (black flags for death, stone statue for immortality) seems to be deliberately highlighting the Númenorian fixation on the theme of death and immortality.
Halbrand has definitely been Sauron from the very beginning.
His raft in the very first scene even looks like Sauron's crown if you look at the placement of the spikes, at this point it would be beyond insulting if they told us "no, that was the real Halbrand!"
@@Games-xd6lx Eh, the "raft=crown" thing seems a bit of a stretch.
@@Games-xd6lx this series is way beyond insulting Tolkien and the intelligence of fans at this point.
@@jj48 Kind of reminds me of “phallic” vs the “other thing” symbolism - when you realize everything is either pointy … or not.
@@elultimopujilense Nah, it’s incredibly well done and respectful of Tolkien’s themes. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean other Tolkien fans feel the same.
I didn't interpret Galadriel's choice to not stop the forging of the rings as her being necessarily being in favour of their crafting. I think she saw them as necessary to save the elves, but she'd be damned if she was going to let Celebrimbor make the amount that Sauron wanted to. I think she was honest in her statement that "One corrupts, two divides." Perhaps not strictly a necessary evil, but perhaps a necessary power.
In the end, I love that it retains two of the original motivations for crafting the rings from the books, the preservation of the elves, and to counteract the power of Sauron. Elrond and Celembrimbor don't know that yet, but that's what I thought was in her mind: preserving the elves *in order* to allow them to work against him. Yes they need to stop their fading (as they understand it), but now they also need to stop him.
Also it's not clear to me that she wants a ring for herself. It's not stated who were going to receive the two (though we can probably guess who Sauron wanted them to go to) so there's no indication that Elrond or Celebrimbor (or Gil-Galad for that matter) know who a third will belong to. The only thing that's clear to all is the necessity of there being three.
The show runners said Cirdan will be introduced in the future, so I do hope they go the original ring wielder route with Gil Galad, Celebrimbor and Cirdan.
@@mrs.manrique7411 I don't remember a mention of Celebrimbor bearing a Ring himself? I thought Galadriel is Nenya's only wearer in every version, or at least every one I'm familiar with. I could see her not receiving it immediately, but I don't think anyone else wields it.
@@citharadraconis oh true. Yeah you’re right. I guess I just imagined him wielding it until she got it, lol.
I can’t believe Corey isn’t smart enough to recognize this. So much for a thorough analysis.
I think it's also worth pointing out that the Stranger might not make it to Rhun, and that events will divert his direction elsewhere.
On the other hand, it would be cool if the Stranger is the Blue Wizard, and Gandalf arriving later learns a thing or two from the Blue Wizards.
The biggest reason I think the Stranger is Gandalf is more that Daniel Weyman starts channeling the mannerisms and speech patterns of, not just a "wizard," but of Ian McKellen specifically. If we compare the Stranger talking to Nori to Gandalf speaking to Pippin before the Siege of Mines Tirith, we see very similar facial expressions and phrasings.
is Maggie Parke related to Morfydd Clark (Galadriel)? the resemblance is definetly there! (1:50:00)
We still have a lot of lindon related questions. But the showrunners teased that there is something up with the mithril story. I understand "sauron is responsible" was the quick and easy solution, but now thas h=s is official we have to accept that we dont know how they are doing the fading of the elves at all. We will have to wait and see.
S2 theory: Berec will find isildur and show up with a rope in its mouth. Isildur is trapped under the rubble and extends his hand. Then Berec throws the rope in a lake and Just stares at isildur.
The showrunners said in an interview that the tale of Mitril was apocryphal (doubtful authenticity). They did it deliberately to bring in the casual audience by creating urgency for the elves. By the showrunners calling it apocryphal, through Elrond, they give the hard-core fans an out by making it viable not to believe the story.
They said this on an interview on The Ringer on Spotify.
This makes it even worse in my opinion. Now we are made to believe that all the elves have to leave Middle-earth because of a myth that is untrue, which makes them look stupid, elves should be wise.
So a huuuge sacrifice for the hard-core fans who know the lore and know how things should be, and a small gain for the casual viewer.
Bad. Writing.
Imagine essentially telling your audience, "We are going with this because we need easy drama, but you can choose not to believe if it makes you feel better, and we'll leave it there.."
@@Ptr96 I think you have to remember that there are way more casual viewers out there than hard core fans and that this is entertainment aimed at getting the most viewers possible.
I loved most everything about the show, but I was bummed about the Halbrand Sauron twist at first. Then I rewatched and realized the depth in some of the lines. "Stronger than the foundations of the earth" alone made me rethink my initial reaction. The show may be retelling the lore how it wants, but it is very well thought out while beautifully connecting to the greater lore. So damn good. Can't wait for season 2.
I was also super skeptical of the reveal when it occurred. leaks were pervasive, but even so i doubted them, and eventually assumed hal was just a big red herring. when they started making it super obvious i got this sinking feeling, but by the end of it, i found myself very satisfied with sauron's manipulations. also can't wait for season 2.
That was my journey with the revelation too. At first i was disappointed, but at the end of the episode something clicked in my (maybe stupid-sexy hal-sauron ... idk) and when i re-watched twice i was liking it, mostly because the actor is AMAZING at the role, you can see the moment his mask falls Halbrand ceases to exist and he turns into a completely different character. Voice, posture, stature, attitude, everything changes. I'd still like Halbrand dying and Sauron taking the disguise (i have my theory about this) and being the one behind every 'strange' things happening with the elves, but i won't be disappointed if it doesnt, because i feel the reveal was very well done.
There was no twist. It was obvious Halbrand was Sauron very early on. The writers on this show are awful
“Beautifully connecting to the greater lore..”
No. Just no. The changes that have been made in this show have ensured it can never be seen as part of the greater whole. That’s what makes it so disappointing. They could have made something great that would have been considered a worthy addition to the overall legendarium but through hubris and incompetence they thought they could do their own thing, in the end only succeeding in displaying their total and utter inability to create something coherent and worthy of carrying the name.
They should be fired immediately before they can do any more damage. The task is clearly beyond their ability.
@@paolo74lfc show was good. stay mad about it.
Apart from the celebration of friendships the other really original thing they did was the portrayal of Elrond, a fantasy hero that isn't a warrior, Spellcaster or rogue. He's a diplomat.
He seems to be the heart of the show. Great stuff with Durin, Challenging Gil Galad, and wonderful scenes with Galadriel in the finale.
The scene where he finds her in the water got me!
3:10:18 I will definitely be looking for opportunities to use the phrase "Chekhov's Husband."
About the Halbrand Sauron debate. How could he first be corrupting the tree and then be on a raft and then tricking the Elves into making the rings? If you look at the storyline, Sauron must be the one corrupting the tree, otherwise the whole plot falls apart. Here is why. The whole set up of the tree dying in Lindon is the idea that the Elves must have something to fear, so they wil give their power to Sauron to protect them from this evil. Halbrand shares this strategy with Galadriel in prison in Numenor. So the dying of the tree must be a real evil existing outside of Sauron (potentially) caused by the Elves, that Sauron is using to instill fear into the Elves, or an evil he created (either real or seemingly real).
Then the question is, how could he be in Lindon and then on the raft? Maybe he had someone poison the tree. Maybe he had a butterfly sent to the tree and caterpillars poisoned it. Ok that was a joke, but my point is, there are many options. He most likely shapeshifted into an Elf or another being.
About the raft. How did he end up on it? He could have been on his way to Númenor on a ship and a storm came. Why was he on his way to Numenor? Maybe because his family was killed by Adar and he had to flee? From a storytelling point of view, it did remind me of the paper ships that were attacked with stones in the pilot. Maybe it just represents falling stones and falling into darkness: Saurons state. If it was Saurons goal to make Galadriel his queen, wasn't this just a hoax? A trick to meet her and gain her trust? But then, how could he have known she was not going to Valinor and jump in the sea? Because he is a dark Lord I think.
So the storyline must be: Sauron corrupts the tree, goes on the raft, repents, comes with Galadriel to forge the rings. I agree with you that a storyline of Sauron first corrupting the tree, then repenting somewhere along the way, then tricking the Elves into making the rings doesn't make sense. But the Showrunners must keep to it, if they stay with Halbrand is Sauron. Which I think they are going to. Quote from the Showrunners : “Season one opens with: Who is Galadriel? Where did she come from? What did she suffer? Why is she driven? We’re doing the same thing with Sauron in season two.
I really like the theory that the real Halbrand was killed and Sauron shapeshifted into Halbrand. But there are so many things he says as Halbrand that wouldn't make sense in that scenario. The showrunners are going to give Sauron a backstory in season 2. If there are two Halbrands, how would they do that? They can't create a complete new story. Also, Halbrand means Hellfire in Dutch if you change one letter. So I am afraid we have to deal with the fact that Halbrand is Sauron.
I would also really like if this Halbrand would be Sauron all along, but the real Halbrand is still alive somewhere and he and Celeborn meet. They catch up with Galadriel and together train Isildur. Fake Halbrand said he took the necklace (with the seal) from a dead body. Maybe there is a dead king somewhere with a brother who is still alive, next in line for the throne and the scrolls the Elves have of the lineage of kings are false.
So far my thoughts on on the Rings of Power...
The answer to the corruption of Middle Earth is his old master Morgoth’s influence.
2:11:20 I've never laughed so hard at a eulogy before... Brilliant speech, both of you.
The melancholy realization at 2:33:00 is pure gold!
Do you mean 2:33:00 ?
@@Enkaptaton hahaha, yes, my bad!
If only they did make the show for specifically him, maybe it would have been better.
Doing a rewatch of Rings of Power a year out from release and found your videos. I don't love Halbrand being Sauron and your theory/coping mechanism that Sauron traded places with him during the eruption has given me hope.
Lets say that's true. Then Halbrand and Isildur could find each other, since we know Isildur is actually alive. Then they make their way back to the camp where they discover that fake Halbrand went with Galadriel back to Lindon. Now, with Arondir as their guide, they must hurry to Lindon to warn the elves of the deception. Once they arrive Halbrand will be met with less than warm feelings and has to prove himself true.
It could happen.
It could.
I swear.
I feel that Galadriel is choosing to remain silent about Sauron because she wants to stay in Middle-earth to oppose him. Revealing his identity and role in the making of the rings would very likely cause them to be destroyed, and hasten Gil-Galad’s planned withdrawal to Valinor.
Galadriel stayed silent because the writers of this show do not understand who Galadriel is nor how to portray her.
You do realise none of this is Tolkien
It's bad fanfic
@chook yes it’s obvious this is not tolkien
I mean, it’s spelled out for us with Sauron’s threat.
I kinda read Galdriel's actions towards the end as her being somewhat ashamed after being duped by Sauron and bringing all the ruin onto everyone and isn't yet ready to openly admit to everyone what she's brought upon them and as a result wants a contingency in the form of the rings of power. That's my read anyway, likely more to it that'll be expanded upon in future seasons.
Best theory I've heard is that she thinks/knows they are needed to stay in ME, and she is unwilling to leave ME to Sauron. Thus the rings.
I never thought it was implicit that she wanted to stop Celebrimbor when she rushed back to the forge. I think that she realized/thought she needed that as a sort of protection against Sauron, but also knew she would need to guard Middle-Earth.
definitely agree on her shame. I think there is still a little hook in her heart with that idea of being tempted to power. Balanced power but power nonetheless. Her final test is restisting that temptation with Frodo and realizing her role is not to stay in power in M. E. but to diminish, which is what all people who have power need to do : )
@@argel1200 but if they just use their relationship to horses and catch a guy on foot they kill sauron and don't need to leave middle earth. Galadriels silence is just a plot hole or more of her villainy
Has anyone mentioned that Halbrand/Celeborn's original idea was to fashion a crown, but then Halbrand said hey, we're going to make *two* - was he talking about a pair of crowns, another prelude to his vision of a future with Galadriel? Then (iirc) they had the scene between them where she takes her dip and he disappears. So, at this point, does he know they are making rings?
Mmm, that just makes that scene more juicy. Whether or not he meant crowns or rings. Thanks for the observation.
That rule of three Galadriel has might inspire her to have a baby with Celeborn??? Hmm, hmm??
Sauron said not crowns exactly, something smaller. And Celebrimbor didn't need to be told to make rings instead of crowns or bracelets when Galadriel ran to speak with him after. So Sauron was already thinking of rings for him and Galadriel, I think. Appropriate, seeing as it was a marriage proposal, of sorts.
In retrospect, watching the whole season I come to realize that Nori is the antithesis of Galadriel, and her encounter of the Stranger is the perfect antithesis of Galadriel's encounter with Sauron. Nori isn't sure if the Stranger's light is a real one either but she decides to follow her heart.
All the actions and decisions Nori makes naturally and instinctively are gigantic inner battles for Galadriel. There is a real juxtaposition of both character's journey throughout the Season, thus making the Harfoot's plot way more integrated to the others than it appears, at least thematically.
I really like your observation here. I want to rewatch the entire season over and over again in order to find all these thematic connections.
I was just thinking this myself! Wonderful comparison. And while both are paired throughout the season, we see Nori and the Stranger traveling off together at the end of S1, while Galadriel and Sauron break apart.
How could Galadriel be right about Sauron being on the move if he had actually repented at the beginning of the 2nd Age? It is basically saying her 3000-year witch hunt of Sauron was for no reason other than revenge? If Sauron can be believed, I mean ;)
Saurbrand may have put himself and refugees on boat wreckage near Numenor in hopes a boat from Numenor would find them and take them in? It seems the most plausible answer. OR, he was picking up Maiar who are sneaking out of Valinor (not using the catapult method) who just so happen to take the form of southlander refugees haha.
It sounds like season 2 will feature more background on Sauron and what lead up to him being found on ship wreckage in the middle of the sea. We could see the Uruk mutiny, Sauron fleeing, and what his motivation was. In season 1 he says something like he had sworn not to return (to the orcs/his old life). Maybe his line about "the tides of fate are flowing" is not only about Galadriel's situation when she was picked up by the raft, but also a reference that he was also riding the tides of fate (literally and metaphorically) to his destiny. Does he have foresight? He was around for the great music and perhaps has some insight as to the way things are going to play out, so maybe he was following something which led to him being there?
Anyway, I'm assuming there will be a scheme. It seems less likely to me that he was just randomly floating around having a crisis of confidence and he did not intentionally wreck his ship (by causing a storm or whatever). The question is why? And if he didn't wreck the ship he was on, then did someone else and why? I think we need more information before we can say what happened. I'm assuming this is all relatively planned out in the 5-season are of the show so we just have to wait for more episodes.
I think Sauron did repent, in his own mind, and at this point sincerely thinks what he's doing is best for Middle-Earth. Like Morgoth before him as his efforts are thwarted he'll diminish in spirit until all he wants is domination and ruin for its own sake, but at this point he does have a goal that he thinks is noble. But in the morality of Middle-Earth, true repentance isn't just resolving to do what you think is right, it's baring all your misdeeds to Eru and throwing yourself on His mercy, which Sauron is still too proud to do. So he's telling Galadriel the truth that he believes, but he's lying to himself.
One of the things I really liked about the episode is that it showed how lonely and vulnerable Galadriel is. Sauron's misstep was switching from enticement to aggression. It allowed her to escape back into her rage where she is much more comfortable.
Meh... her rage. That bothered me from episode 1. I wish they'd approached her character completely differently. Perhaps she and her husband, Celeborn, arriving with Celebrian (their daughter) to deal with the fallout of her brother's death. Then move forward from there. I don't for a minute believe Celeborn is dead but that he'll appear somewhere in later seasons, because without him, they don't conceive of Celebrian who later marries Elrond. And from that union, we get Arewyn who marries Aragorn.
Anyway... the rage-spawn Galadrial we got was wholly infuriating and, I felt, just so wrong. As it was, there was little journey to get us to episode 8, making the about-face by the finale too abrupt, and the character progression seemingly not existent.
I hope the show gets better in season 2. I really do.
Maybe if Galadriel spent half the time she spends obsessing about her brother looking for her Celeborn she wouldn't be so lonely.
I started suspecting Halbrand was Sauron in the 3rd episode (it was his sniffing around the smithy and his answer when the guild guys asked him his name) and very much liked what it meant for the characters and story, even if it is a bit lore adjacent. The Stranger and Nori, on their way to Rhûn, will definitely be a blue wizard story, and I’m all in. As the professor said, the Stranger is a Blue Wizard. If TRoP turns him into Gandalf ultimately…I think I can live with that. Although I don’t think it will be necessary to appeal to the casual and Jackson-films-only viewers by making this wizard Gandalf once we’ve gone further into the story - because by then people will be ready to embrace this wizard’s story on its own merit, I bet.
For me, episode 3 was when I became absolutely convinced that Halbrand couldn't be Sauron, so hopefully we'll get a bit of explanation next season.
Yeah that was when I thought it was Sauron too. Pointing out his interest and talent in smithing seemed like a big clue. From there the hints piled on.
@@jj48 I’d love to get a long flashback from Halbrand’s POV, showing what lead to Halbrand being on that raft at that fateful time and place, and up to and including the interlude between the eruption and when we see him again, wounded, in the tent.
@@meganjadie5659 I'm still hoping that season 2 will start with Berek and Isildur coming across the corpse of the real Halbrand, dead from the eruption. That would explain most of the issues I have with episode 8.
@@jj48 I still think Sauron was Halbrand all along, but there was definitely a change in the portrayal of Halbrand’s demeanor when we see him again in the tent. He seems much more shady and glowering from that moment on. Which would be in keeping with the idea that Sauron assumed the form of the real Halbrand, after he was killed in the eruption.
Really glad to see that this one's over the 3 hour mark. Massive props to the editors! (and Corey and Maggie)
"Slim Shady and the Death Moth Ladies"
Priceless.
"Slim Shady and the Death Moth Lady" was a great chuckle 😂
Sauron made it clear that his reason for being hesitant to go after Adar and assume the mantle of the Southland king was because he wanted to be in Numenor. When he was in Numenor, his interest was in their smithcraft. He probably had political plans for them at some point, but Galadriel's presence led him to hold off on that and try to hold her back. That all makes sense.
It's possible that he was also influencing some of the elves before this, but he obviously has plans for both. I don't see any difficulty in putting any of that together. A lot of the assumptions of the rant against this seem hasty. We don't actually know he was ever working on the elves, even if their behavior seems weird, and that theory would have been cool. Placing that theory above what the show has actually shown gets things backward. But that theory is still possible. It doesn't fall because we don't know what Sauron's plan for Numenor was. He just has to have one. We don't have to know now what it is.
There have been so many things in this show that didn't make sense at first but in time did, and I'm sure there will be more details filled in during season 2 that will make more sense of all this. But there's no reason to think the one way of making sense of it that Corey came up with pre-finale has to be the only way, even if that would have been great. And there is reason to think the gaps in our understanding could include explanations of what we don't get now.
You just unlocked an answer in my brain to Corey Olsen’s issue with Sauron not having a plan (that he follows through on?). So Tolkien wrote that Sauron had back up plans with being captured by Numenor. So we can imagine him being extremely flexible with whatever situation he’s given to manipulate others. Perhaps rethinking his character as someone who has back up plans upon back up plans so that he can come out on top no matter what happens (except the ring being rejected by Aragorn and two randos fighting over it at the cracks of Mt. Doom) is a better assessment of his character, besides his need for efficiency.
@@mrs.manrique7411 that still doesn't make much sense for a LOT of stuff is based on circumstance and contrivances, a lot of the plot wouldn't happen if the specific conditions were not met! But the Sauron nature is to plan and play the long game, of course he can be flexible and alter strategies to the changing circumstances...but there is no drive behind it all, no clear goal so far.
@@fantasywind3923 oh for sure, I don’t know what his original goal was (though we can guess), but obviously he wanted people to not know he was Sauron, so he wanted to be liked, accepted, trusted…for some particular aim.
Perhaps he also truly was rejecting being “Sauron” because the Southlanders on the boat would have presumably worshipped/followed him if they found out he was either Sauron or their king? But they never treat him as anything but another human being. So he obviously is lying and has a particular goal in mind by hiding his true nature (or his cover as a long lost king). That’s already several back up plans if being a regular human being didn’t work on that ship.
@@mrs.manrique7411 but this is the thing, if they were using the "Sauron repentant" period into this,...they did it very, very badly because even Sauron who would reject his past and try to do good now and be benevolent...he wouldn't just...go away and do nothing...he would still have great plans for the 'betterment of the inhabitants of the world' which would naturally lead him on the path of assuming position of leadership and using his knowledge and powers for benefit of others but the show completely fails here, it's not even certain what was the point of sailing on a ship that got wrecked and so be stranded on a raft...was he actually trying to reach Numenor? Back to Aman no matter how unlikely it seems? All pretty much stupid plans because he just spend the last centuries hiding already in Middle-earth why would be leave 'NOW' hiding his true nature is not really amounting to much of a plan, it is his second nature by this time, he was known for cunning and guile but there is no sign of anything that he has truly grand plan in the making and then the 'relapse' into evil is basically sudden as if by a switch being turned not really from natural progression...if this was simply case of he was evil all along and was pretending then there is still no believable reason for what he was doing all that time across the show and not to mention the unseen backstory in between the fall of Morgoth and 'current' time. It's so so badly devised and so poorly written and completely disregarding the written lore of Tolkien, one look at the Tolkien letter would be enough to come up with a much better storyline!
@@fantasywind3923 I know what you mean. Purely from what we’ve seen in the show, he’s already been “trying to repent” like you described Sauron would do by “fixing” things. To have his character have a lull in this pursuit due to an opponent is (of course) not canon, but plausible with the Adar storyline they gave. Why this change in direction took him to the fearsome Ulmo and Ossë territory is an interesting choice for his character on the writer’s part. Like I said, he’s obviously still uncaring toward anyone else but himself, and lying about who he is, and using others, so we just have to wait and see what his true intentions were in season 2. That’s the way of mystery box storytelling - they don’t show everything about a mysterious character’s earlier choices until a later point. 🤷♀️
Brilliant setup and pay off for the joke, "Maybe... maybe the show wasn't made just for me?"
How please does meeting a bunch of Southlanders being in the forbidden West past Numenor near the shores of Valinor makes any sense?
They tried to go there and got smashed by a pet of Ulmo´s
@@Enkaptaton Could be, but no pet of Ulmo would not have drowned Sauron if it was at it. This was clearly Sauron's buddy the sea-monster.
This episode we found out only one can simply walk into Mordor!
Dammit Boromir! Even thousands of years before your birth you are wiser than the writers off Rings of power.
Only Sauron can! Ebüverybody else went into Beforedor...
2:03:30 Saruman actually traveled to the East with the blue wizards. Saruman later returned while the blue wizards were still in the East.
Tolkien changed story later though - in the first version he wrote, the 5 Wizards all showed up in the 3rd age, Saruman and the 2 Blue Wizards went to the East, Saruman returned without them, and they "probably" failed and established cults of magic. (I like that even Tolkien doesn't know for sure.) In the version he wrote later, the 2 Blue Wizards showed up in the 2nd Age, immediately went East, and were effective in undermining Sauron there, otherwise his armies would have been much bigger. In that version the other 3 Wizards came in the 3rd Age and I don't think it's mentioned whether Saruman ever followed them East. (Realizing that Tolkien actually had the Blue Wizards arrive in the 2nd Age is what made me think the Stranger is one of them and not Gandalf after all.)
When reading interviews with the showrunners and Charlie Vickers, they both mentioned Sauron being at his lowest point on that raft. That is a different solution then 'Halbrand was not yet Sauron', but also different from 'Sauron orchestrated his way onto that raft to meet Galadriel'. Charlie mentioned that the way he played the scene in Numenor where he is doubting whether he'd take up the mantle of King and join the fight in the Southlands, he mostly fears going back to Middle Earth because he is afraid of the Valar that kicked his butt last time. He is running, hiding, biding his time.
I'd say though maybe not what we expect of Sauron, it at least makes for an interesting character. Of course, the drawback of that version is that the story about the fading and the dying tree are not part of Sauron's deception, but a true depiction of how things work in this world. That is why there is no 'revealing conclusion' about it in episode 8, because there is nothing to reveal.
Well we know from Tolkien that the fading is a result of Morgoth corrupting middle earth. So it is never considered Sauron’s fault, at least directly.
This is the magic of Mystery Box storytelling. You don't even answer the obvious questions. Mystery Box.
The idea of a demi-god being at a "low point" is pretty funny.
I'm so grateful to Corey and Maggie for the idea of having an analysis show to follow each episode of this series. I'm not a "casual" Tolkien fan, but I'm not at "diehard loremaster" level yet, either, so I've learned some things. It's been fun to go through the speculations and themes with Corey, and the more cinematic details with Maggie. Absolutely LOVED "Halbrand's Funeral" and the venting sequence after. And oh, my gosh, "Slim Shady and the Death Moth Ladies" -- that's just awesome. Also thanks to the Studio Lab folks for making this series so beautiful setting-wise and your professional expertise in making this show even more engaging for the audience. Cannot WAIT for Season Two! (And ugh, we have to wait so long!)
I could get on board with the Two Halbrands theory. I hope it's right. I'll survive if not, but it makes much better sense than Halbrand being Sauron from the first.
And all along I have thought the writers could have brought Gandalf into this series, and at the end have him go back to Valinor or somewhere for awhile before re-entering Middle-earth in the Third Age. I'm cool either way with our Istar -- whether he's the Good Blue Wizard or Gandalf, I'm good. I'm just so very glad he is not "peril."
So now what am I going to do for the next two years...? (Actually, I do know -- I'm re-reading the Silmarillion and going to start listening to the SilmFilm project)
Thanks again, y'all! These have been an incredible 8 weeks!
We’ll if you want to be a lore master don’t watch rings of power
During the storm in Episode 2, when Galadriel says “Bind yourself to me”, Halbrand gives her a look that’s definitely more than “Wow, that’s nice of you,” as though a seed were planted. Then, as he prepares to do as she says, she’s struck by lightning!
Very nice spot! I never caught that wow!
I hope Corey's right about the Stranger being one of the Blue Wizards. I have less faith in the writers than he does.
And the writers have an alarming amount of faith in themselves
yall should definitely read the interviews done with the Halbrand actor and the showrunners cuz they definitely answer some of the "doesnt make sense" questions. they explicitly say that it was a chance meeting on the boat and that Sauron was repentive during the beginning of the show. and that SPOILERS Halbrand has been Sauron the whole time lol
I did think it was suspicious his raft looked like Sauron's helmet. But I brushed it off as a possible misdirect. Funny that Vickers did not even know until after E3.
Yeah those interviews pretty much cleared everything up for me.
Out of curiosity, did they explain how the tree was poisoned? Gil-Galad saw the first poisoned leaf around the same time Galadriel and Halbrand met. Just curious how they’re squaring that circle and hadn’t heard an explanation.
@@austinherrington7049 I think that's still up in the air.
yeah that still doesn't make sense
The Halbrand memorial scene made me laugh out loud!
My guess for the Stranger is that he is indeed "blue Gandalf"... Amazon doesn't have the rights for the real names of the blue wizards, so the character may be called "Istar" for the entire show, but he will play the part of a blue wizard, and probably even wear something blue at some point, so he can be called "blue wizard" by someone in the show, and there will be more and more clues that he is also Gandalf. And if they do that, he may die at the end of the show, that way, he can come back as Gandalf at the start of the third age.
I wish Sauron/Halbrand would not have touched every component of the elven rings.
Not every aspect. He was planning on two rings.
@@drtyprior he touched the mithril, the gemstones, and Galadriel's dagger.
For the record, I’m ok with many of the choices the writers made that make the series more “modern” looking. For me they add new textures to the story. When I sometimes don’t especially love them, I can at least accept them.
But also for the record, and for the n’th time - I think a conflicted Sauron, except in the “sorry I got caught” sense, SUUUUUKS! Making him just one of the guys trying to work things out in this topsy-turvy world who in the end tragically chooses evil, is a serious and fundamental violation of the rules of the (original, foundational) game IMHO. Tolkien’s world is NOT “Dynasty” - it is nothing if not a world of faerie stories. And making a Sauron like he apparently is here is probably akin to what Tolkien called “a knowing winking” at the internal magic - strictly a NON-faerie tale, ironic mode of story telling. In other words the writers breaking the most fundamental rule, and in a very passé way - they just couldn’t resist because it is is part of the air we all breath these days. You can go pretty far with the adaptation, but when you do that Tolkien said it becomes no longer a faerie story, but something else dressed up in faerie story garb. And there is nothing less “of faerie” than a fake faerie. Maybe lots of people that are pissed off about the series don’t break it down in those terms, but I believe they know it when they see it - and feel it. Almost nobody - other than TV writers it would seem - really yearns for a deconstructionist Middle Earth, or ironic dragons for that matter.
The same argument can of course be made with respect to other details in the series, but this one is really the core issue. Maybe things could still be saved by having all the apparently conflicted stuff Halbrand/Sauron said and did - retconned to the gills - turn out to be intentional deceptions, with multiple “Halbrands” and Sauron’s spirit shadowfaxing all over the place making mischief. But you REALLY have to twist what they have already shown into an epic pretzel to make it come out in the end. I feel like this is ultimately what Corey was struggling with in increasing desperation (and failing to resolve) during his psychiatric-couch style rant about Halbrand(s). It was super funny, but it is clear that Corey - like a lot of us - is still in the bargaining stage of grief.
So you think they made Sauron appear too good? Like Annatar appeared too good? ‘Cause it’s pretty obvious he just thinks he’s right to deceive and manipulate for his ends. (Tolkien wrote that he wanted to end strife, he hated the marring and ugliness of the world that Morgoth created - even while he served him, and he thought he could fix it efficiently if he ruled it all.) Why is this being compared to a game rather than what Tolkien actually wrote?
Also, that grief is legit. When people have been scammed, they go through a grieving process. The show runners knew what they were doing writing a scamming Sauron.
@@mrs.manrique7411 My criticism of the series isn’t about whether S is or isn’t written “realistically”. If you haven’t read it already go and read Tolkien’s essay “On Fairy Stories” and then see if what I wrote makes sense or not to you.
@@MarkoBotsaris I've read it, and I'm also not sure how it relates, or what your complaint is. There are a lot of ways the character of "Halbrand" can be criticized, and you seem to be implying multiple angles without making it clear to me why you think this show is a deconstruction of Middle-Earth.
@@joelpartee594 I feel like I said it pretty clearly above - I’m saying the series violates in many points, but to greatest effect with the way Sauron is presented, the “rules” for how fairy stories work that Tolkien set out in his essay. I think making him TOO human and conflicted - by that I mean genuinely conflicted and not faking it to seduce - is one of those “winking at the fairy story rules” that gradually break the spell. When Sauron, arguably the most supernatural element of the series, is characterized this way - as if he requires human motivations and internal conflicts - it is “winking at the internal magic” of the story - the one thing that Tolkien said you must NOT do in a fairy story. Of course Galadriel’s status and mystique within the world is punctured in this way as well. The forging of the rings - also punctured. These are not easy problems to solve within the series, I get it! This is in contrast to what Peter Jackson did with the world which while it had a few issues basically preserved the “fairy story” FEEL that many people emotionally respond to in the original. As Tolkien pointed out in the essay, fairy stories have a special place, purpose and feel that is distinct, and people can feel when something is wrong even when they can’t put a finger on it. I’m saying I think this TYPE of thing is the ultimate root, when you strip away quibbles about lore changes, plot structure, bad writing and so on, of why many people find the series problematical, even abhorrent. I’m not in the later category- just sayin’. It just feels wrong if you’ve read the original books and are already invested in the world.
Anyone can make an argument that I’m wrong about that of course, or that Tolkien is mistaken, but he wrote in “On Fairy Stories” that if you violate the basic rules the story is no longer a fairy story but something else, and particularly problematical if it is still pretending to be a fairy story. Tolkien gives examples there of the ‘winking’ (which blends slowly into ‘mocking’) kind of stories he knew and disliked from his youth. Another example - distinct form the essay - is how he disliked the Narnia books, even though they were written by a good friend. He felt there should be nothing overtly allegorical about a true fairy story.
There are enough examples of this in the series to start a drinking game. One example that is kind of funny, and even might have been ok if not for the cumulative effect over the whole series, is where Adar kind of winces at Galadriel saying the word “orc” and replies to the effect (if not the precise language) that “it’s ‘Uruk’, we consider ‘orc’ derogatory”. 😂 Don’t get me wrong, the kind of people that think there are “orcs” in the REAL world - and I’m NOT taking about people who go to Comic-Con here - are far, far worse than a small group of show runners that can’t write a good fairy story. In fact, I’d rather have seen a deconstructionist series done entirely from the point of view of the orcs. But it would arguably no longer be a fairy story - or maybe a fairy story from an alternative middle earth universe. Anyway, it is this disconnect between the rules of fairy stories and the rules of the real world that, for instance, make things like the spoof “LOTR Unused Audio Commentary by Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky”, which you can find on the web, so hilarious. It is hilarious NOT because we believe (or don’t) in the underlying political theory. It is hilarious, albeit in a highbrow way, because the narrators so blatantly DON’T treat LOTR according to fairy story logic. We can enjoy the humor from a removed perspective, but if Howard and Noam were actual orcs in the movie saying this stuff it would be a mockery of fairy story logic - a Monty Python movie.
Returning to the main point, Tolkien wrote if you puncture the spell created by the rules of the fairy story game the spell is broken. For whatever the reasons, be they noble or sinister, the spell is broken - like that time-travel movie where Christopher Reeves goes back in time by dressing up and believing … but later on gets sucked back to the present when he discovers a coin from his own time mistakenly left in his pocket. We DO get a lot of stuff these days, including television series, that play with mixing story types - and some of it is even very good. But they are not pretending to be ACTUAL fairy stories.
A lot of this of course is the eye of the beholder - Tolkien himself says they are a matter of personal tastes. I’m just reaching for an explanation of why so many people had such a visceral negative reaction to the series. There are a number of ways to still enjoy the show, in addition to hate-watching. I’m just saying that once the fairy story spell is broken it starts to become something that conflicts with the source material in spirt, than in mere lore details.
@@MarkoBotsaris I appreciate you explaining your position. I think there are multiple ways this series diverges from being a fairy-story according to Tolkien's definition, which I also believe to be true of The Silmarillion as published by Christopher. TRoP is a serialized drama set inside a few lines of Tolkien's appendices, and doesn't really claim to be anything else. It can't fail as an adaptation given that there's not enough source material to adapt into more than a ten minute short. It has to be its own story, and there's no particular reason for that story to be a fairy-story that Tolkien (or anyone else interested in Tolkien's essay) would recognize as a fairy-story.
I still don't see Halbrand/Sauron as being in conflict with Tolkien, given what Tolkien himself wrote about Sauron's persona as Annatar and Tolkien's references to Sauron not beginning as wholly evil, and ambiguously repentant at the beginning of the Second Age. Yes, portraying Sauron as sympathetic (and portraying most of the conflicts of the show as morally grey) is outside the purview of Recovery, Escape, and Consolation, but it's not outside the character of Sauron as described by Tolkien. Not every story set in Tolkien's Middle-Earth has to be a recognizable fairy-story.
As an aside, I found Jackson's films to be very much in conflict with Tolkien's writings in ways that "broke the spell" for me, such as the detailed depiction of violence, the erasure of songs and poems, and the addition of very modern and cinematic humour. They're fine movies for what they are, but I don't enjoy them nearly as much as Corey Olsen clearly and sincerely does (as evidenced by the frequency with which he references them during the otherwise wonderful Exploring The Lord of the Rings podcast). This show is similarly different from anything Tolkien wrote, but it's not being so in a way that bothers me because there isn't enough actual source material for TRoP to follow or deviate from - it has to make up its own stories in order to be a show, while TLotR films had many more chances to leave written material in or refrain from adding new scenes and dialogue.
2:41:29 The problem with using the elven rings is that the elves stopped wearing and using them once the one ring is forged (they only start using them in the 3rd age when the one ring is lost). Forging them first gives them some time to show what the elven rings can do before they have to go into hiding for the rest of the show.
They did not stop using it. They kept it
@@Lfilpo "And while [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them. But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.
Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring." (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
I wonder what to make of the word “openly” in “never again used them openly”.
Sure, 'openly' makes it possible to think 'but they used them secretly'. But then Elrond says about the 3: "But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One." So it looks like even the 3 cannot be used savely as long as Sauron wields the One.
The production value in your videos is astounding!! I just found you guys and I’m so jealous I didn’t have you guys along the way for season 1. Plz don’t stop these! I’ll be subbed and rdy for season 2 to go along that journey with you guys!!
This show doesn’t deserve any of this. It’s atrocious. It isn’t an adaptation it’s a mockery.
The Halbrand funeral toward the end had me cackling XD
It was almost as cheesy as the show
lets talk about Halbrand thing. I think that Sauron were in Halbrands body but in season 2 we will see sauron in Elven body as Anatar. I think that this is most likely possible..
Personally, I think that he'll return to Eregion as Halbrand when Galadriel is out, and trick Celebrimbor into thinking that Galadriel's the one to be suspicious of.
@@jj48 interesting.. but i cant believe that producers will not use Anatar name for the story.. I just cant believe :D we will see
@@tomasholub. We shall indeed. I think part of it will depend on whether they got permission to use the Annatar name.
@@tomasholub. they would need to get special permission from the estate to use the name, since it doesn't appear in the Appendices that they have rights to, but I think I heard that they have gotten such special exemptions for a few other things so it's possible!
@@atticmuse3749 I read yesterday somewhere that they do have the right tu use the name Anatar.
1:29:14 ah true I did not noticed. The King was supposed to be dead and there he lives
I liked it overall, but I felt like the pacing and editing choices were less than optimal across season 1. Too much time was spent in some areas and then others felt too rushed.
I didn't mind the pacing for the most part, until this last episode suddenly shot us into overdrive.
Found a youtuber that that edits for a living. He re-edited episode 7 when the Orcs attached the Southlanders and his cuts and re-organizing of the main attack, along with a suggestion of adding a scene similar to one in The 300, of a little boy lets the heroes know the village was under attack. So in ROP a quick scene of a boy (or girl) who gets separated from the villagers as they are rushing to take refuge in the "keep" and finds the Numenrons camp, telling them of the impending attack, making that a connector to the action in the village so they can ride to the rescue. When he put it all together the narrative flow from scene to scene was much better, and the attack more impactful emotionally.
Seriously. Amazon has money. They didn't think to hire better editors? And a short scene addition would have connected that far better. Lets hope season 2 will improve. I mean, up is really the only direction from here.
Man that last hour is incredible lol
But Finrod is reembodied in Valinor? Not dead? And she of all people should know that. Her father was born because Miriel refused reembodiment and Finwe remarried. Galadriel knows everything there is to know about elvish reembodiment.
On the other hand, Galadriel left before the very first reembodyment ever happend. Maybe reembodyment was not yet revealed to the elves.
@@Enkaptaton Even when reembodying happens, it tends to be rather slow. Galadriel wouldn't have any reason to think Finrod has been reembodied or would be for a long time.
@@Enkaptaton how, her whole coming into existence was because Miriel refused to be reembodied - otherwise Galadriel's father Finarfin would not have been born at all - as Galadriel's grandfather Finwe would not have been allowed to remarry - reembodiment and its refusal is the very basis of Galadriel's very own existence - she simply must know of it. And she saw Luthien reembodied while they both lived in Ossiriand after Luthien's and Beren's return from the dead so Galadriel does know well that it can take as short as 3 sun years. Luthien died a few months (up to a year) after Finrod's death and was running around and having a baby in Tol Galen just a few years later - and Galadriel was then her neighbour in the very area. And Galadriel's for sure knows as in RoP she is close friends with Luthien's great-grandson Elrond. BTW Luthien was Galadriel's own mother Eärwen's first cousin, so they were quite closely related.
The writers made the 'I passed the test' moment for Galadriel in LOTR a more explicit challenge by Sauron in that she repeats his words first spoken in ROP thousands of years before. It was stunning to see the moment when this test was laid before her.
The writers cheapen the moment Galadriel says this in LOTR by having her simply echoing Sauron's offer and her initial denial of joining with him, and because now we see this as a test she already passed thousands of years before. This is not a positive effect, and very uncool by the writers.
@Cain Darin I believe the difference lies in first refusing the person and a union of sorts with him. The second with the Ring is more a refusal of it's power which she could take, could use it to finally throw him down and take him place. One plays more on the connection she's formed with him, one plays more with a desire herself to rule and defeat him.
@@davidbeer5015 Retroactively using someone else's powerfully-written scene to ultimately diminish it's impact by having Galadriel quote Sauron himself back to Frodo is something I wish I had the power to un-see and un-hear. That it was used in this show as almost a marriage proposal from Sauron to Galadriel "first" is, in my view, unforgivable. Galadriel was married to Celeborn when she met Annatar/Sauron, and distrusted him from the outset as she was the second-most insightful elf of any age. This is not a minor change from the lore, but a wholesale reworking of Galadriel's character and history. You may enjoy this, and I don't begrudge anyone that right, but this is a complete reversal of Galadriel as Tolkien intended her to be.
@Cain Darin well, Galadriel is already married to Celeborn ;) and while she doesn’t see through Halbrand at first (whether he reappears as Annatar is another question, but if he does, I’m sure she’d be more suspicious), she eventually does. She is still pretty insightful, based on some of her conversations, but she’s been on a revenge path for a while as well.
I’m wary of staking claims of “this is not what Tolkien intended,” mainly because Tolkien himself has retconned things before as well and, imo, we don’t necessarily have his final version of the 2nd Age story and characters. Regardless, It’s also not the first time characters were altered somewhat for a screen adaptation.
@@davidbeer5015 Tolkien was pretty clear about Galadriel. No one expects an absolutely faithful adaptation, but you don't adapt Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" by finger painting roses in their place. We could go round and round about this, and I'm sure we would never come to agreement. I find the Rings of Power to be a Payne and McKay production with a few Tolkien names thrown in. The idea that she just happens upon Sauron as she's swimming in the middle of the ocean and pushes him back to the dark side while nearly falling in love with him but rejecting him in the end, is ludicrous writing by any serious estimation. Just think about that and try to make it credible. Anyway, it's clear I don't belong in this chat because I think Corey gives the writers way too much credit and focuses on tenuous "themes" he's uncovered and made connections to, while ignoring what I think are objectively massive plot holes and insipid dialogue. Be that as it may, I'm not here to rain on this chat's parade, so I will agree to disagree and be on my merry way. Thanks for the civil discussion, and I hope you continue to enjoy the second season.
3+ hours? I better get some snacks and go to the bathroom before I start this one
“Maybe they didn’t make this show for me”.
May God roll my freaking eyes. 🤦🏻♂️
I don’t think that Galadriel’s motivation is revenge. In the scene with Halbrand in the smithy she says not, but says she “cannot stop”. To Elrond, she says “Without [her sword] what would I be?”. Defeating Sauron (a worthy motive for all sorts of reasons other than revenge) has been her sole purpose for so long that she can’t imagine another way of life. Her unshakeable conviction that Sauron is still a threat is either a true foreshadowing or a necessary axiom underpinning her entire purpose, or a bit of both. The fight against Sauron is also, as symbolised by the dagger, her last link to her brother, the last task in which they can be said to be acting together. No doubt these motivations are fed by thoughts of anger and revenge, but they aren’t the central motivation.
I do wonder why Galadriel’s motivation was conceptualised as it was. Her actual motivation, per the text, was the desire to rule a land of her own. There would have been so much synergy between her motivations and Sauron’s motivations (to heal or order the land by ruling it) to work with. Perhaps they thought it doing it this way would make Galadriel a more sympathetic character.
YES!!! When we have gone through extreme loss, we hold onto things more and want to control what happens more than anything! That essence of control fits with her lust for power.
2:55:00 'Cirdan is the only certified Elf with a beard'.
Hmmm...
"Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father [cf. XII:365-66 n.61] was exceptional, being only early in his second."
VT 41
If elven rings have powers to preserve their race, it explains why Galadriel let them forge it. In order to stop Sauron, they have to stay in Middle-Earth, keep building their cities, and create armies, right? That's how I interpreted Galadriel's decision. I was more curious about Adar's quote mentioned by Celebrimbor. Did he hear it from Halbrand when they spoke in the forge or was Celebrimbor influenced long before the events of episode 8? Also, Gil-Galad's blind trust in the whole "Mythril and dying souls" situation implies some sort of deception since episode 1. A lot to think about until the next season comes out🤔
I actually thought that since Sauron can’t be in two places at once, that perhaps when he was in Eregion as Halbrand, he would also shapeshift into an elf in the forge and speak to Celebrimbor as this other person.
Galadriel should not had any saying in this. this is something that I really dont get, why they had to do this with Celebrimbor.
@@JohnPopcorn06 That’s true. Celebrimbor’s character development by Tolkien is usurped by RoP Galadriel. His self control while being tempted with loving a married woman of one of the lords of the elves. His temperance even in his creativity and forging. His realization that Annatar had gotten too involved in the making of the rings. I can see the folding of his character arc into RoP Galadriel’s grief and need to control.
One question in lore Sauron never touched nor took part in making of the Three and that;s why they were "unsullied" so not tainted by dark power in the same way the Seven and Nine were...so in the show Sauron not only touched the material they were made of that mithril nugget but also participated in the work experimentation though left before the final work is completed...so that must mean now that the Three ARE tainted and evil now :). The motivation behind the Rings in Tolkien's version is clear, the Elves wanted power to preserve and heal the hurts of the earth, to make their lands beautiful islands of bliss in manner of Valinor, the Undying Lands beyond the sea, they wanted this power to stop the natural processes of aging of all things which were weariness for elves who changed little they wanted some measure of control over forces of nature, as Sauron used the elves weak spots, their desire for knowledge used against them, their ambition to make great works to influence the world around them out of their love of mortal lands they inhabited. As for Gil-galad being deceived...well it's only conjecture...it's like saying that things that didn't happen in the show are evidence :). The Three Rings were SOLE invention, thought, idea of Celebrimbor, who was their sole maker, he made them compeltely alone because he wanted to test himself with the skills he learned from Sauron disguised and made them with different purpose and power "understanding, making and healing, to preserve all things unstained" that's their power.
But not remaining silent would give the elves the ability to catch a guy on foot and eliminating sauron eliminates the dumb tree blight. So no, just bad writing mostly
Is there a clip/video anywhere of the crew’s live reaction to the halbrand reveal? Been binging this series this week and want to see the moment it all sank in 😂
Corey as conspiracy theorist! Maybe he can clarify how a giant eagle could save Gandalf if Birds Aren't Real.
We already know this. Birds aren't real, they are Maiar spirits taking the form of mythical creatures that vaguely resemble the actual real flying beasts like those the Nazgul ride or Dragons.
Was it really worth spending 30 mins of an early episode to establish an agreement to build a forge that only had about 3 minutes of screen time in the final episode?
Yeah, that was rather strange. Pretty much everything that happened in Eregion in this one episode, I was expecting to take the bulk of next season to show.
Likely the importance of the forge agreement was more on setting up Elrond and Durin’s plot and mithril’s importance. Though maybe the forge will have some purpose in later seasons.
They needed that gigantic tower of a forge for a little wood stove they drizzled about 18 drops of oil onto the coals to make the 3 rings…
@@Halfwit_The_Brave keep in mind though the tower was built while the elves were planning on getting those “vast quantities of mithril” celebrimbor hoped for. Even then though the process of testing mithril for the crown/rings and its alloys seemed to require lots of tools, people, and explosions.
@ Zach the fact the forge was built for large quantities of mithril does not mean it would be a smaller forge because they didn’t get the mithril. It would still be a huge forge. Also the forge explodes and then moments later it is rebuilt and cleaned up. The writing and the editing of this show is stupid. In addition the actual story is worse. The 9 and 7 rings of power should be crafted first.
This show was really terrible, but I do appreciate this RUclips channel. Very insightful and very well produced.
Hi Ring and Realm
Could we put this up on podcast ? It will be great listening
Fantastic as always! Rings & Realms has been integral to my enjoyment of the series. Not that I wouldn't like it without, but has instead endlessly enriched it. Thank you to all involved! Hopeful and excited for more Rings & Realms content to come in the wait time for Season 2
20:00 I don't think the king of Numenor thought he was talking with his daughter but to some servant that has been poisoning him.
He’s the farsighted and confused. I think he thought he was talking to someone else who will do wicked things in secret.
@@mrs.manrique7411 Imagine beeing able to see what every teenager in Numenor does in the night when he is alone urgh
The thumbnail alone makes me smile! The finale was INSANE. Can't wait for season two.
While I think that Gandalf being the Stranger a missed opportunity, I kinda like the idea of him roaming middle-earth earning all his names, starting with Incanus, going through Tharkûn and Mithrandir, as he begomes known all around.
Harbrand was the only thing that I found hard to swallow. Through the entire season, I was hoping that Whoever was Sauron had a Palantir, so he could influence Celebrimbor at a distance, without blowing up his cover.
I really hope he is NOT gandalf or Romestamo but something entirely else!
And if they DO make Celebrian the daughter of Hlbrand then i'm gonna be frustrated and angry!
@@Aurora2097 lol, what? Hahaha. You just threw me for a loop!
Since they mentioned Celeborn, I’m pretty sure Celebrian will be his true daughter. I didn’t get the impression that Galadriel and Halbrand had any time alone while he wasn’t sick, and even that alone time was “riding for three days without stopping.” Adar was their prisoner, so they couldn’t go off somewhere, lol. Like what? She didn’t care about him at all before that battle either.
Anyway, I’m REALLY looking forward to her reunion with Celeborn. Never thought I’d say that about pretty boy, I-want-to-rule-a-kingdom-with-you-too, dwarf-hating Celeborn, but here we are. Morfydd Clark spoke of Celeborn with such love and longing that I actually thought, “Maybe Galadriel married Celeborn for a reason?” 😅😂
Thank you so much to Corey, Maggie, and the production crew. Your analysis and the show has increased my enjoyment of the series immensely! I know analysis is not everyones cup of tea, but the quality and enthusiasm of everyones work will surely convert more in the seasons to come. Best of luck folks; look forward to season two, and any inbetween episodes (thoughts after a rewatch?), you might do!
I'd be down for that!
I saw "giving the dagger away" as giving up the way of revenge she was on so far. As well letting go the past and to focus on the future.
There were so many scenes where only the dagger, when she was looking on it, reminded her why she was on the revenge trip - now its gone - of cause not her memories - but at least the only personal physical thing that reminded her
Same. Swords into plowshares moment.
I realized while watching this video that there's another way to look at that symbolism - if she sees the Rings as a weapon to use against Sauron, she's not giving up her brother's dagger at all, she's literally turning it into the new weapon she'll strike at his killer with. I'm no longer sure that she's given up on vengeance, just changed tactics.
@@joemason6319 that's one way to look at it. Did she give up her thirst for vengeance, or did she transform it into something new?
Halbrand is Sauron and they are going to do flashbacks to Annatar making the 16 rings next season
I don't think that's the route they are going down. I don't think any of the other rings have been forged yet
Sauron never made the 16 rings. The elves made them, with Saurons teachings and help. The 3 were created after the 16, by Celebrimbor with no help from Sauron. He did use Saurons techniques, which is why the 3 are still bound to the 1. By the way, all the rings were for the elves, to help Sauron seduce the elves. It was only after the 1 was created and the elves detected it, and removed their rings, that Sauron changed his plans, recovered the 16 from the elves, and distributed them to dwarves and men instead.
I read Galadriels push to forge the rings as her recognizing the elves can't leave Middle Earth now Sauron is back, and they need the rings to be able to stay. There's this "welp you've made the bed, now lie in it" kind of feel, right?
Meanwhile, the creation of three, instead of the one Celebrimbor thought up, or the two Sauron recommended (for who and who there HalBRand? Hmmmm?! Sneaky twerp) does fit with the "The three were forged in secret" especially when it's possible Sauron figures Galadriel blew his cover and they recognize the rings are an evil idea.
Also, I noticed something kind of simple, but I feel perhaps significant in costuming: Sauron is wearing a neck torc (a Celtic symbol of authority and wealth). One other character wears a torc: it's Waldreg.
What do you think that's about?
My cousin works on this series. When area split Sauron, he literally split him in two, the stranger, and the stranger. They cast away his magical power on the meteor
Wait, what!?
@@drtyprior Yes, yes. Whait, what indeed!
I think he means "When *Adar split Sauron". And maybe the second stranger means... Halbrand? No, Halbi has magical power still.
Nigel. Stop giving information away!! Tell your cousin to zip it!
Corey was killing it at the Memorial. XD
It's been a wild and bumpy ride!!
Charlie Vickers and Fiona 🍎
🙌🙌
Love this show the same way Tolkien love allegory.
🤌 Brilliantly put. He did LOVE allegory didnt he.
"Slim Shady and the Death Moth Ladies" is the name of my new cover band.
Lol you guys said on the aftershow it would be at least three hours, and I'm delighted :)
Corey's denial about the Halbrand/Sauron reveal is hilarious. I think he really wants there to be something deeper, when in reality the writers are not that clever, and are just playing fast and loose with Tolkien lore.
What makes you think Halron was in Lindon before the boat?
Wow, I finally found a show that let's the show stand on its own merits. Thank you for providing thoughtful content
Show stands pretty shakily on its own merits ...
I've enjoyed it quite a bit, but thanks for sharing 👍.
@@bl687 well, I'm happy for you, and I mean not to be rude. But.... how? How can one be a fan of Tolkien's writings, and also this show which completely contradicts and debases his legendarium? I'm not a troll, it's a genuine question. I had high hopes for this show and the showrunners talked a big talk about going back to the book yada yada. But at every turn they have scrapped Tolkien's version of events for a cardboard, 2 dimensional Hollywood version. What am I missing?
@@doomsdaybooty1072 well, since you have challenged me, how about explaining to me how you feel it contradicts and "debases the legendarium"? And if I feel like it, maybe I'll share thoughts on them. But honestly, there's enough going on in the show to support these intelligent, thoughtful Tolkien fans (hosts) discussing it in a thought provoking manner for 3 hours... so it can't be the worst thing ever...
@@bl687 well, if you like it, I can accept that. I don't want to try and persuade you not to. I meant no offense. It's my job to ask questions after dark
Thank you so much for putting your time and effor into making such a great in-depth content
1:41:40 - lol, Turin 'Turambar' shoutout? ;)
I think Nori and Poppy needed to separate for a time to allow Poppy to grow. If Nori stayed around she would be the main one to become the Pathfinder. Now, Poppy has a chance to grow and show her strength, which she may not have done if Nori stayed around.
In relation to the three rings for the elves, Galadrial mentions that the rings are only to be made for the elves with no interference or handled by any others so they are pure and in secret. Doesn't that mean that Sauron won't have control over those 3 rings, immediately, anyway, that is why I believe Galadrial mentioned making 3 to balance out the power.
It's a weird move where show wants you to think someone is sauron so badly it has to be a misdirection - and then uses that as a misdirection for readers. Did they think it was a perfect compromise between the reader and the casual experience? I'm not sure I've ever seen it. Any other prominent examples? It is slightly frustrating as a reader.
Yeah, if it had only been the Halbrand stuff, I might think it was just us viewers reading too much into it, but the stuff with the Stranger and even Adar initially shows that SOME misdirection was going on.
@@jj48 I mean, the show Made me believe it wasn't halbrand even though my tv writer brain knew it was him from the words "looks can be deceiving."
I appreciate learning about Estel and Amdir, but I have a few questions. Is Estel really just resignation? I’m not sure Elrond’s request to Gil-Galad is a lack of Estel. It’s a plea to do whatever can be done in the hope that things, no matter how hopeless it seems, may somehow work out to a good end. This doesn’t seem different to Aragorn and Gandalf entreating Theoden to give it his all, or the Council of Elrond agreeing that Frodo will take the Ring to Mordor, or the decision by Aragorn et al to go to the Black Gate to help buy Frodo time. Should they all have just resigned themselves and said “Oh well, it’s not about us… let’s just allow fate to unfold.” This seems an odd reading of Tolkien to me. Hence I do not agree that all the elves are lacking Estel because they are wanting to preserve what they see is good.
Oh one other thing. I think Tar Palantir is not talking to Miriel when he says “I see what you do in the dark of night” but to Pharazon. He just notices someone is there but doesn’t know who. Only when he hears a female voice does he shift and think it’s his daughter. This makes a lot more sense since Pharazon is also by his bedside, and it’s more likely Pharazon is up to bad stuff while the King sleeps than Miriel, who seems to love her father and want to honor his wishes.
I don't think the "lack of Estel" reading is due to a lack of resignation, but to the seeming despair they have. Yes, those with Estel can and should still do their best, but the Elves in the series are acting as though if they fail, it's the end of everything.
@@jj48 okay true but again I don’t see how that’s different from the instances I mentioned from LOTR? Also I’m not sure they’re in such despair or anything. It’s not like they’re weeping and gnashing their teeth: they’re very upset that they might have to leave middle earth which is both bad for them but also bad for ME, especially as they are it’s main protectors.
I’ve been pretty convinced Halbrand is Sauron from the get go. We know it was weird for Gil Galad to send Galadriel to the west. Was someone whispering in his ear? There’s the whole continuity issue but Sauron was around in elf country dropping his hints re the rings. So did he poison the tree just in time for Galadriel to sail and for him to then follow and the poisoning then being discovered. Thus creating a problem that only Miithril can solve. Itself a deception within the show. Halbrand/Sauron then presents the answer and thus gets the alloy and beginnings of what he needs to plant the weakness that the one ring will exploit. A ruse that he advises Galadriel to use in the prison of Numenor. Ie create a problem that you have the answer to. So we can explain how he knew to be on the sea; because he basically sent her. Also Ador claims he tried to kill Sauron. Halbrand/Sauron goes to kill Adar saying do you remember me? Because he was Sauron at that time. Maybe in a different form? He’s been laying his plans for centuries. After all they were all of them deceived.
Do the dark elves need the magic of Valinor to survive in Middle-earth as well as those that left Valinor?
Is not Finrod alive and well in Valinor?
I don't think Elven death quite works like that. When Elves die, their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos, where they wait. Eventually, they can get new bodies and return, but sometimes this can take quite a while; and for some Elves, it may essentially last as long as Arda lasts.
Now, for Finrod, particularly, I believe Tolkien did say he only spent a short time there and then lived on in Valinor, but I'd point out two things:
1. We don't know if that's happened in the show or not.
2. Even if it has, Tolkien indicated that it was a pretty rare thing, so Galadriel would have no reason to think that's what happened.
@@jj48 Ok, I get your points on Finrod. What about the Morquendi? It appears the writers have forgotten them.
@@clownofthetimes6727 Yeah, not sure where that's going. They made the distinction early on, but don't seem to have done much with it. Hopefully we'll find out more later.
So glad that Maggie was present in the studio.
Having a live studio audience is awesome too.
Remember this one Professor?
Tolkien Professor
@tolkienprof
·
12 sep.
Top three things I hope are not true in the RoP:
1. Durin's Bane emerges during the show
2. Halbrand is Sauron
3. The Stranger is Gandalf (Team Blue Wizard!)
None will be deal breakers for me, but I'll be disappointed.
So i reckon you're very much disappointed in the series?
You didn't notice the disappointment in the episode? Though technically, we've only seen one of the three confirmed so far.
@@jj48 Wanna bet he didnt watch, or if he did, never finished the video?
The perplexing part is how he found some parts of Jacksons's movies to be cringe worthy upon a first viewing (So did I, so I never faulted him for it), but now he pretends that this garbage tier writing is palatable.
@@-JazzHands- I don't think I've ever heard him criticize the writing of Jackson's movies; just some themes/events (and coherence, in the case of the Hobbit films). Examples?
@@-JazzHands- That was 20 years ago, a man is allowed to change his opinion as he gets older and wiser.
I dont like that I agree, but I agree that I dont really like some of these changes made. Ive waited until the end to decide, but man, I wish they hadnt changed the main story about the rings.
Umm they changed everything about everything.
@@Halfwit_The_Brave And I can live with a lot of changes to a lot of stuff in an adaptation. Im not one of those who needs a 1:1 book/screen converting. But the changing of the rings really took it too far for me and makes all the smaller changes also feel worse. I was waiting to see if their changes would work in their adaptation and having now seen the end (so far) I think it doesnt.
This isn’t even a 1:100 conversion. They changed everything except a few names. Nothing is correct. Nothing is coherent.
@@Halfwit_The_Brave yoe´re going full black and white mode in the comments here.
@Enkaptaton, please explain why you think that. I will explain my thoughts to you if you really are curious.
On the Halbrand/Sauron section. We can make up all these theories, but really it is just bad writing. Corey you should be hired as the main script writer.
If Sauron assumed the form of Halbrand the place in which it would make most sense to me was Eregion.
The vaguery around Halbrand's 'wounding' in Mordor makes for a compelling peiod in which the switch could have taken place. If we go with the latter then I can can envision a season 2 narrative in which Isildur is joined by Halbrand in Mordor leaving the audience under the impression he's with Sauron but later having revealed that it is really the original Halbrand. Creates mystery and tension in the second season and helps address the problems arising as a consequence of the decision made here at the end of season 1.
Been waiting eagerly for this one!! Thank you guys for doing these! Y’all are geniuses