Thank you for this! I interpreted Sauron’s tears as a symptom of his loss of control. Celebrimbor taunted and goaded Sauron in hopes of ending his suffering sooner, and Sauron had to exert a lot of self control not to kill him and lose the chance to find out where the rings were. When Celebrimbor succeeded in sending Sauron over the edge, Sauron’s intense emotions - rage, frustration, fear - welled up and spilled out.
I felt much the same! It’s fairly clear he is being written and performed as having a Narcissistic-Anti-Social personality. So the loss of control of that situation would bring those emotions forward and leave someone like that in grief of not attaining exactly what they want, exactly how they wanted it. And perhaps even the immediate realization on his part that he had been manipulated into giving that up would be enough to induce that grief in him.
Don't fuzz over it. Could be realizing what talent he took from this world also. Regret to what lows he had to stoop to. The show isn't going to do anything with it and not resolve it. So why even care ...
I interpreted the tear to mean: what if Celebrimbor is right? I am the slave of the rings? He begins to truly lose control at the moment when Celebrimbor likens him to Morgoth. Sauron does not want to be like Morgoth, but different. He wants to be revered as the saviour of Middle-Earth. Celebrimbor has cast doubt in his mind on this subject and his tear shows his emotions (he does have them). IMHO😊
I interpreted it kind of like you do, but also that Sauron mourned that he didn't manage to make Celebrimbor his willing slave. I think he felt it was a waste that Celebrimbor defied him and he was "forced" to punish him. I also think his ego was hurt by Celebrimbor not bowing to him, being a complete narcissist and expecting everyone wanting to obey and serve him. I actually think Sauron believed his own words back when Celebrimbor told him he truly was the great Deciever, even decieving himself.
55:12 regarding the double snakes being a historic symbol of deceit. Indeed, they are. But in Tolkien, twin serpents are part of the emblem of Finrod, Galadriel's brother. Those, along with a crown of golden flowers, which arguably line the top of Sauron's cuirass, are design elements of the Ring of Barahir, a ring that was originally Finrod's, Finrod is not normally associated with deceit, so perhaps one might wonder if Sauron's choice to wear symbols associated with Finrod on his chest, at least on that occasion, was intended to taunt her.
You make good points, but to be fair one of Finrod's most famous moments/stories is an attempted deception - against Sauron, no less. During Beren and Luthien's tale when he disguised himself, Beren, and their company as orcs trying to reach Angband and then initially lies to Sauron himself about being Morgoth's servants.
The use of serpents as symbols and motiffs by the Elves might come from the same meaning in some early Minoan, Egyptian and Mesopotamic cultures, where the animal is associated with wisdom. Perhaps even why Morgoth saught to corrupt them into the Uruloki, Dragons, later on. As a mockery and tarnish of the symbol.
On the topic of what will motivate Sauron to create the One Ring, perhaps it will be a case of Celebrimbor's prophecy ringing in his ears - he interprets it as meaning that there are so many rings of power and ring-wielders out there now, one is bound to have the power to defeat him, so he creates the One Ring to rule them all, with all the dramatic irony that entails.
Here’s a thought I had earlier with Annatar’s entrance: I understand some have had beef with Sauron calling himself “sharer of gifts” and then Celebrimbor says “Lord of gift”, but this is actually important. Notice Sauron gives beforehand calls Celebrimbor the Lord of the Rings and then when Celebrimbor says Annatar he follows up calling him the “Lord of gifts”. Through the lenses of filmmaking this known as a power shift, by elevating Celebrimbor through calling him the Lord of the rings Celebrimbor then shifts back by calling Sauron the Lord thereby giving back all power given to him into Sauron’s hands.
My prediction, if there is a self-insert / restaging of an iconic episode 8 scene in part two: the death of Celebrimbor. Have had so much fun watching these commentaries, thank you Corey, Maggie, and everyone involved.
I loved this season. The music, the visuals, the story, and the characters were all terrific. Sure, there were some problems (the kiss) and the stranger not being a blue wizard. But I really did love the journey and can't wait for season 3!
could you specify? How ll people beahving compeltly irrtionala and sensless could be intriguing. E.g. what was Adar's objective in attacking Eregion? He would never get Sauron this way. Sending messangers demanding Sauron's delivery to him would make sense, randomly attacking would just warn Sauron in advance and make him flee. As so with all actions of every haracter. Neither makes any rational sense. Neither of the characters is a fuctional adult in the series. How could the characters be terrific if they all are consistenlty depicted as imbeciles not capable of any logic or rational thought?
@@zibilacoste5 well, sending the hobbits actually makes sense: 1. they are mortal ( = have the gift to act outside of mere fate to a degree) 2. they are ring-resistants 3. they are hardy but easy to overlook - and they already have proved their worth against Smaug - so it actually makes sense. Sauron was not an imbecile - Mount Doom was unreachable from his point of view - he miscaculated, but he was not stupid - he just was not a mortal who developed the for a weak mortal necessary habit to tripple-check himself at every step. In the books all characters'decissions are consistant with their character, knowlegde, outlook, goals nd otivation. In RoP all is random, characters do stuff merely because the plot or situational drama demands it - e.g. Elendil leaving Isildur unburried, Galadriel standing there just letting orcs kill Adar while completely able to defend him, Adars orcs neither using the bridges to attack the gte not using the secret tunel they clearly knew about to sent severl spies into Eregion to target Sauron specifically...
@Chociewitka Within the context of the show, Adar makes it pretty clear, imo, why he believes attacking is the only option, besides being desperate to be rid of Sauron. 1) He states clearly that he has been a victim of Sauron’s manipulations. 2) He knows Sauron has been in Eregion for some time. 3) He clearly states first to Galadriel and later to Elrond that Eregion has fallen into his shadow, which we are clearly shown. Why would he send a messenger demanding Sauron be sent out if he knows Sauron’s manipulations and that likely either 1) the Elves in Eregion could be working for him because that’s what Halbrand told him or 2) they don’t know him by that name. To him, and in his desperation, the only logical course is just to block and attack Eregion. Idk, it makes more sense to me, especially for an Uruk, than to try and send messengers to Elves who might kill them or simply be unaware of Sauron being among them.
@@zibilacoste5 Friendly advise here, from another human that previosly had to deal with this "side-cult" of the Tolkien fanbase (I call them the Holy Knights of the Lembas): Don't even try, just ignore them. Even if you explain very clearly how you see and understand things, they don't care. In actuality, they don't want to hear any opinion other than theirs, they just want an excuse to prove how much "smarter" they are than the rest of us, mere mortals. And every comment anyone makes about Tolkien or Tolkien's work, that is not made in a quasi-religious praise, they'll take it as a personal insult.
@@davidbeer5015 ? it is completely senseless as: 1. Sauron will surely escape with such a huge forewarning - 2. there is always Lindon, so killing all the elves in Eregion will not ensure Mordor's safety in any way - neither of Adar's goals in attacking Eregion - killing Sauron and killing off the elves - both ultimately deemed necessary to ensure orcs' future safety, can be reached by attacking Eregion - both will result only now in Mordor surelly being attacked in future - by both Sauron and the other surviving elves. And Adar shoudl konw this. He is not a 4 year old human child.
In the context of the show, I think one reason Sauron needed the one ring was to counter the elven rings. Brimby said a single ring will be his downfall; Sauron’s interpretation is one of the rings they made will be his defeat, not what we know. Since he couldn’t get his hands on the eleven ones or could lose other rings, he had to make the One Ring that dominates all others.
Yeah it wasn't a tactical error of Sauron not to attempt to influence the three rings - because he wasn't fully aware of the possibilities and he wasn't the master of their making. I don't think the Annatar plan was fully formed at this stage either. Sauron is always weighing up the possibilities and working out which card to play, it isn't a plan set in stone, he is weaving through the rocks of opportunity like a snake. He has taken Feanor's hammer though so that does suggest he has a plan to use it.
Thanks for the great episode! I think my favorite part was the discussion with Dr. Brown about Queen Miriel and how the show has really developed her as a dynamic and complex character. Their hopes for how she meets her end (I love the Amandil comparison!) are now my official head cannon. Can't wait till Round 2!
I suspect this hierarchical structure of the plots will be the way things are done going forward, and each season will have its primary plot device. I assume it will probably be numenors/pelagirs turn next season with its rise in prominence and pharazons increasing power setting us up for the downfall? although I wonder if we may get more dwarves too with internal struggles and ring plot devices. I also suspect the nine will play a big part
I suspect Nori's connection with the Stranger has been fulfilled. Not to say they may not cross paths again later, but they both helped each other find the start of their respective destinies, which they are now on separately. But I agree the Stooryline (see what I did there) was pretty weakly developed and concluded this season.
Sure, there is no canon, after all, so anything goes, really. Might as well have a Donald Trump cameo while they're at it. Tolkien never said he wasn't in Middle-Earth, so there's no reason why he couldn't be there.
@@ahimsamovies4484 Other than the fact that he wouldn't fit at all with the story they're telling. Oh, but I forgot, we're still pretending that a lack of canon means a complete lack of any thought or consistency with anything.
Adar was a magnificent creation of the show and his loss was brutal, but what a great arc and what a way to handle the orcs as a species. Sauron robbed them of their chance to live in peace.
I always love that Adar forces the viewer to face the implications of the “orcs were elves” idea. We can’t deny it when we look at him and we have to now wrestle with that and the mass killing of them later like Tolkien did. Like, if true, what does that mean for the Orcs born under Morgoth/Sauron and if there is no Dark Lord guiding them? Imo, it drove the point much harder than when the same idea was presented in the films, where Saruman gives a little exposition of it to Lurtz, an Uruk-hai that we just saw get pulled fully formed out of mud by monstrous looking orcs, which imo lead to some dissonance.
@@davidbeer5015 It's a great moment for Galadriel, as a stand-in for the audience. She's now come to face her own dark impulses toward the orcs, which Sauron called her out on when they met. But she's overcome them. And let me be clear, she's not wrong that they are dangerous and they are a threat, but Adar showed her and the audience that they are not irredeemable and they deserved a chance to live in peace. It's one of Sauron's greatest evils that he robbed them of the leader who could have helped get there.
Prof. Tolkien was asked if Orcs were beyond redemption. His writer mind said "Yes" his stories up to this point were good vs evil and you were in one camp or the other character wise. His devout Catholic side thought "Well..", Catholics are taught if truly contrite and repentant they can be forgiven and redeemed. So... He was torn between were they or not? The Adar/Galadriel scenario explores this question well. I myself have started the conversation of their Höra being Orc-kind, their Fëa being Elf-kind (Not sure if this is valid for offspring). It makes for interesting conversations.
@@rumpelstilzchen2796 It's very interesting, and interesting in context of the discussion about Sauron in the show. Is he capable of repentance? Would Galadriel have been able to help him fight the light? The show's writing seems to support that he was beyond redemption and his claims of wanting to do good were all a manipulation, but theology indicates something different. It's useful from a story perspective to have an unredeemable, Satanic villain and/or cannon fodder like the orcs, but it is also fascinating to really consider the implications from a theological perspective.
I’ve so been waiting for this!!!! 😊 👏🏻 I watch each episode several times and think I’m capturing all the subtleties but Corey & Maggie (+guests) add so much detail & nuance to the story & characters. Also- the question about Amandil is so filled with insight. It would be brilliant to use Miriel in his place. Kudos!!!!
I agree with so much. One thing I’ll point out is that we know Sauron to some degree was planning to craft something to use the power of the unseen world to dominate. That goes back as far as the end of the first age. This was show in episode 1 of season 1 and 2. The information on the plans for making a bastion in the south lands is also very old so while the current plans around setting off mt doom had nothing to do with Sauron I do think the origins of the scheme did.
Yeah, the reignition of Mt. Doom was definitely part of Sauron's pre-coup by Adar plan for the future of Middle Earth, and it was at that point for much the same reason as what Adar wanted out of it: a place where the orcs could live in large numbers. Adar wanted it so they could live freely and more or less peacefully, Sauron wanted it so he could breed a massive orc army to sweep across Middle Earth.
@@gesa8518 Yes. Melkor was able to change the very structure of the world around himself, if only in spite. Sauron did not have this kind of power. Re-igniting Orodruin and creating Mordor was from Melkor.
Thanks for this Maggie and Corey. Really helpfully articulates how well RoP takes and develops/adapts Tolkien's material. I do wish they had avoided the Stranger being Gandalf, but hry ho. Loved the guest appearance by Dr. Sara Brown. her dry sense of humour is so refreshing (but I am British).
@RingsandRealms I don't know where the viewer questions come from so I guess I'll have a crack at posting one here. Finrod's quote in the very first episode (and I'm paraphrasing) "to find light sometimes you need to touch the darkness" sounds similar in a way to the idea of achieving good ends by questionable means, which is clearly an ongoing theme across both seasons of RoP so far. Do you think this is a coincidence, or do you think this is flawed advice by Finrod and wrong (in a Tolkienian sense particularly) that you should touch the darkness (ie, do questionable things?) in order to find the light, and that there will be some kind of indictment on that quote in the future? I can't remember Finrod's story from the Silmarillion well, but is there something in the text that would explain this flawed perspective, if that's what it is?
The viewer questions come from a Discord for backers of the Kickstarter. Personally, I don't think that's what Finrod meant at all. My own interpretation was that sometimes, it can be difficult to tell what's right. However, when you encounter darkness, you KNOW it's wrong, and should be able to orient yourself by turning away from it!
@jj48 Thanks for the answer, and your input. I like that interpretation too, and that was my first impression. I just couldn't completely ignore the similarity after it first occurred to me, and I wondered if it might have been something related to the fall of Nargothrond, which would have occurred after this quote in the timeline. Maybe I need to go back and read *Edit. The word use is interesting here too. I double checked, it is touch the darkness, not just face it, suggesting physical interaction
Finrod was born in Valinor so I think he has not learnt yet learnt all that he would like to know about good and evil. Perhaps he felt like he understood evil better once Melkor came to stay in Valinor. Some might say it was a mistake of the Valar to invite the Eldar to Aman as Eru may have had different plans and leaving the aftercomers in Middle Earth to their own devices might not be for the best. Finrod is inquisitive, like Galadriel.
I always felt that the Mount Doom key plan wasn’t Sauron’s or even Adar’s. I think it was a leftover plan from Morgoth that Adar heard of and went to go activate. The corruption, the ruination of Arda was Morgoth’s own agenda.
@@lberghaus but Sauron has an alibi - he never used "Adar's mark" (he also never cared for the broken dark sword carying that mark) and he had been a pool of black goo since the very moment that he tried to take over the command after Morgoth fell - so how and when could he had killed Finrod?
Fin rod was killed in or after the battle in the beginning of srason1, 1, where sauron was part of. Which battle it was is not clear, but afterwards the elves must must have found finrods body dead and with the mark.
@@gesa8518 no, it was clearly stared in S1's prologue that Finrod was killed while hunting the new orc leader names Sauron in the times directly following Morgoth's fall. And that it has been Finrod's mission - but how could it, if Sauron was a pool of black goo at this very time?
@55:43 Galadriel draws blood, but not first in the entirety of the fight. Only first within the “portal” or circle of stones. Sauron’s double snakes can represent Mercury’s healing powers, not evil.
@1:04:45 Though the temperament of the ring bearers was distinguished more than the difference of the rings in the text, the rings themselves still seem to still be distinguished by Sauron in offering the seven to the dwarves instead of any of the nine or lesser rings. There is some sort of distinction, and the show emphasizes the fact that the future enslaved men will no longer desire to serve Sauron, but be forced to. That is in the text, and that is what will be emphasized in the show.
@mrs.manrique7411 I like the deceit angle because, well, Sauron. But twin snakes, being destructive but claiming to heal, with the Biblical references perhaps the Exodus snakes: one destroys, one heals?
Re the rings (1:16:00), my wondering: would a powerful being like Sauron really be so dependent upon elves to create these rings? Does that in essence lower the power of this kind of being? Thank you for this analysis, the time and effort involved are much appreciated!
Feanor created the Silmarils, which even the Valar could not create themselves. Beings like Sauron are powerful, but they're not all-powerful, and Elves and Men can come up with ideas that Valar and Maiar could not themselves. It seems that part of the reason Sauron stuck around was to learn from Celebrimbor, in addition to manipulating him.
This show is starting to remind me of Agents of Shield. For better or worse, the more they just do their own thing the more fun I have with the show. Agents of Shield S1 was very much beholden to Marvel studios and the more they were able to break out from it's shadow, the better the show got. Adaptation wise not great, but it's better than it's inaugural season.
Eh, I think you are being a little hard on Estrid. She didn't want to marry Hagen in the first place, and they both just caught up in the moment. Then the Numenorians come and cause drama, heightening everyone's emotions and inhibiting logical thought. I think Estrid will tell Hagen and make peace about it.
I did feel like this season was a bit uneven on the sub plots and rhun really suffered for it. I hope they don't abandon the region entirely and we see more of the culture in future seasons
With the forging of the dwarven rings they talked about the possibility of Celebrimbor's deceit changing them. What about the possibility of him finishing tne nine as a thrall also changing their character
In the Akalabeth, the author (Elendil) knows that Tar-Miriel strove to climb the Meneltarma. How did he know this? Elendil was on his ships driven before the tidal wave towards Lindon. How did Elendil know what happened to Ar-Pharazon and his warriors? The ONLY way Elendil could know these events would be to see it through the Elendil Stone - the Palantir of the Tower Hills.
@johnmooers5594 lol, I love how u guys moan about the show deviating from the freaking book about events that haven’t even been in the show yet. But whatever, Tolkien cop. Write ur ticket and go back to ur box of donuts
@@NicoleStevensHays11x If you read my comment you'd realize it was on how the show can match up with the lore and have a really cool scene while doing it. And keep your hands off my donuts.
Watching these episodes I always wonder if it's actually fair to say that Maggie and Corey put more thought into this than the showrunners themselves...
@Baadan37 So you think the show is sloppily and hastily thrown together? And that a 1 hour YT video with no casting, sets, scripts, etc took more time than it did to make the 8 episode season? What does this say about YOU? You watch 2 seasons of a crappy show? Stick around 3 yrs and counting? Even in the off-season, u peruse the web for content about the crappy show? Writing comments abt it, too? And def much more. Exactly how much time do u invest on garbage media?
@@NicoleStevensHays11x At no point did I say any of these things you're inferring. Of course a season of television takes longer to produce. I simply meant that it seems like Corey and Maggie have given this way deeper thoughts and have a better understanding of the source material than the writers of the show. I don't think it's sloppily and hastily put together but I do think that many plot choices and the writing in general are subpar. And what does that say about me indeed? As a huge fan of Middle-Earth I will always watch adaptions like this one hoping it gives me the amount of enjoyment the books or the PJ movies gave me. I also expect War of the Rohirrim to be great for example. I don't expect to like season 3 of ROP but if LOTR taught me anything, it's that you should never lose hope. Also, I don't like you implying that I'm some kind of weirdo or troll who is searching the internet for ROP content just because I'm watching and commenting on videos on this high quality Tolkien YT channel.
Sitting down with Bombadil IS the last thing Gandalf does before going to Valinor… but the last thing he SAYS about Bombadil in LOTR is that he wouldn’t care a lick about the downfall of Sauron. THAT is who Bombadil is. Not sure who Rory Kinnear’s character is, but it ain’t Bombadil.
@ cmon, Nicole. I love Rings and Realms, have listened to the Tolkien Prof for years, and won’t touch those hate-monger troll channels with a 30-foot pole. But it’s ok to share criticism. My tone was snarkier than it needed to be… but the second season built a lot of good will with me that was largely wiped away by how the dealt with Bombadil. When JD Payne cited Bombadil as his favorite character in a recent NOTR interview, it kind of floored me. So I’m sharing a personal opinion. Let’s have those discussions… think that at the heart of what Corey and Maggie are doing with this show and Other Minds and Hands.
Thank the Valar that Prof Olsen seems to be loosening up a little and offering a bit more criticism of what doesn't work about this series. However, it's not a good look, academically speaking, to name drop the show runners (or they him from time to time). Nor does it exactly indicate a high level of scholarly objectivity in its analysis that "Rings and Realms" seemingly has unlimited rights to the use of imagery and music from the Amazon series. Moreover, has Olsen abdicated his semi-sacred duty as a Professor of Literature to provide his students with literary criticism of this series' most glaring fault: the abysmally poor level of writing in regards to the dialogue? When compared with the rhythmic and lyrical yet lightly archaizing writing of JRRT, this show is poorly written to put it mildly. Is Prof Olsen misleading his students? Perhaps.
@@jj48 I don't understand your question. Why wouldn't it be? Olsen is a Professor of English and Medieval Literature. My question is how can the quality of the writing not be a topic of discussion. That's what I don't get. It's my view that it is the duty of a Prof of Literature to critique the quality of the writing of that which he analyzes. Just my view. Nobody on "Rings and Realms" has ever indicated that it should be. Far from it. That's the problem, in my opinion. I think a Professor of Literature has a duty to point out poor writing to his students. Not to do so could be misleading. But that is just my opinion.
@@TheTolkienCurmudgeon But this show isn't an English and Medieval Literature class. The purpose of the show is to examine the story and adaptation decisions of the show, so how is it dishonest or misleading to discuss that rather than other topics? As a comparison, I'm a computer engineer with some knowledge of programming. If I make a video analyzing the story of a video game, should I feel an obligation or duty to dive into the technical details of the code? Would it be misleading for me to focus on the story?
U guys can’t get aroused w/o moaning abt ROP lmao. Who CARES if he criticizes or doesn’t? Your opinions are so flimsy that ur hunting for validation….ridiculous
@@jj48 Yes, from the beginning he also placed off the table any evaluation of the quality or artistic success of the a show in terms of its being an adaptation. So actually I should complain about more than the lack of discussion of the writing. Prof Olsen hardly ever says much of any crtiicism of anything to do with “Rings of Power” rising above saying something to the effect that he questions the show-runners/writers choice or that he doesn’t understand it. I simply disagree with the value of producing this entire show of analysis without offering critical evaluation as well. He’s said he will postpone that until “Rings of Power” is finished. But when will that be? In six or seven more years at the rate we are going? I’ve got say that during the first season I watched all of ‘Rings and Realms’ carefully along with watching each episode of “Rings of Power” about three times. In the end I felt cheated that Prof Olsen had lead me to believe that the idea of Halbrand being Sauron would turn out to be some sort of red herring. He was quite wrong about that, wasn’t he? And he also said he was pulling for the Stranger to be a Blue Wizard. That one didn’t pan out, either. I suppose I feel somewhat embittered not only by “The Rings of Power”, but also by “Rings and Realms”, which to me now seems like putting lip-stick on a pig. Sometimes the pig is pretty one, I admit. The show has its moments.
_>dark blue wizard dark blue wizard blue wizard"The Rings of Power is not the Numenor show of course. So the Numenorian storyline has had to be told in brief""Kemen's vision for Pelargir as a military base to support the exploitation of Middle Earth may result in a city that's physically larger and more imposing than the collection of thatched huts nestled amongst the ruins that we see now"
Simple point is that the Dwarves and Men being proactively gifted the fifteen or sixteen rings by Sauron implies that the Elves did not have those recipients in mind when they originally made the sixteen. This version, if there is any such version, is an elf-centric account because the intended recipients would have been Elves, because that makes the story even more about the Elves. Whereas I tend to prefer a version more in line with the Ring Verse, even though the three "elvenkings" is probably a red herring. Reading a little between the lines, but it's a simple way to look at it.
@@NeilTarling-p6g The version more in line with the Ring-verse, which is an Elven-lore verse, by an Elven-loremaster, and of which Tolkien says: "Eregion was captured and destroyed, and Sauron seized many Rings of Power. These he gave, for their ultimate corruption and enslavement, to those who would accept them (out of ambition or greed). Hence the ‘ancient rhyme’ that appears as the leit-motif of The Lord of the Rings," Seems rather 'elf-centric', so I'm not sure which version, other than the 'elf-centric' version, you prefer, since it is all the 'elf-centric' version...
@Tar-Elenion. It’s simply IUNREAL how much TIME u ppl invest in this show while making it clear that u see it as a failure unworthy of ur attention. U always show up on here. Dude, and u wrote a book!!! wtf is wrong w/ u ppl? If the show sucks, explain why you’re STILL watching it, and, in the OFF-SEASON, prowling the web & this channel, writing textbook-sized attempts to fight & debate strangers online abt the writings of a dead dude u worship as a God. And nobody owes u any citations. Just like the show owes u NOTHING. I’m glad ur unhappy. Ur a miserable person itching to bicker about things that are petty and absolutely useless. The show owes you no degree of similarity or unsimilarity to a book. There’s not even any 2nd age book to begin w/ lmao. Just crumbs here & there. Like 5 chapters across all the books and writing that he made. we already read the books. We don’t need to see the exact same thing on a screen. Their story is superior to the book plots (like, the few we were given for this age) lmao. I don’t know why you would charge a TV show with being identical to Tolkien’s writings when Tolkien’s writings are not even consistent within themselves. lmfao… in one version, Galadriel and Celeborn left Eregion of own accord, moving to Lothlórien & becoming its rulers after the last Sindar King, Amroth was lost at sea, leaving Eregion to Celebrimbor. In another version, Celebrimbor staged some sort of soft coup d’état or peaceful takeover of Eregion from Galadriel, after which she and her husband left to Lothlórien. Gil-Galad, king of the elves, Doesn’t even know who his freaking parents are. He’s got a set then elsewhere another set. I could go on but don’t write textbooks like u lol. If you want to complain about differences, start w/ the source material. There’s TONS.
@Tar-Elenion you're right that the Elves making rings for the Elves is what is best supported by the text. I like the rhyme, and I think it's interesting that they have adapted the rhyme itself by taking it at face value and recontextualising it. When you take a look at it, knowing all the other text and context, then it becomes clear that the intention in the poem is not the Elves's but Sauron's throughout. But when you look at it in a more naïve way then you just assume that the Elves intended each set of rings for the recipients who got them - and it's with the increasing dread of the lines that this is shown to be a false assumption. So this is quite similar to what the show does, but instead of seeing that the rings are increasingly going to the wrong recipients, we see the Mirdain increasingly deceived. So that's an adaptation on that level rather than reflecting all that the text said about the creation and distribution of the Rings.
I’m…not entirely sure how to read this? I mean one guy in the crew clearly took Corey’s drink in the end, but I didn’t see any snacks being taken during all that
The amount of effort that must have been exerted to extract such clear meaning possibilities from the muddied mess of the presentation of the material as it was aired as it was, must have been immense. You describe a story that would be great if only the producers and writers had been able to realize such a thing in film. Unfortunately they did not. Too often in this episode I felt as if I’d missed a secret episode that set up how things ended up here from where they were previously. To have any chance this season should have had at least one or two more episodes and at least a few dozen more extras for many scenes.
Someone high up in Amazon Studios had also said that RoP has done incredibly well from what they can see, it scored in the top number of original shows, and she said that they were proud of it’s work. So…sounds like odds are high for another season at least?
@ahimsamovies4484 It def will. It’s HILARIOUS how obsessed u ppl are w/ the show failing etc. it’s like u have an opinion about something and are both convinced that everybody shares your opinion, and so fragile and insecure that you seek validation all over the place. And get enraged when people are enjoying the show that they watch (normal ppl don’t watch what they don’t like..). Fox News etc exist to keep you guys in a perpetual state of rage and unhappiness. And it has spilled over to Every aspect of your life, including something so minuscule as a freaking show on TV. Absolutely pitiful
![The Dragons of Middle-earth [COMPILATION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YSUlfiQVuDg/mqdefault.jpg)
You have uploaded precisely when you meant to.
My enjoyment of this TV series is infinitely greater because of this RUclips channel. Thank you!!!
Thank you for this! I interpreted Sauron’s tears as a symptom of his loss of control. Celebrimbor taunted and goaded Sauron in hopes of ending his suffering sooner, and Sauron had to exert a lot of self control not to kill him and lose the chance to find out where the rings were. When Celebrimbor succeeded in sending Sauron over the edge, Sauron’s intense emotions - rage, frustration, fear - welled up and spilled out.
I felt much the same! It’s fairly clear he is being written and performed as having a Narcissistic-Anti-Social personality. So the loss of control of that situation would bring those emotions forward and leave someone like that in grief of not attaining exactly what they want, exactly how they wanted it.
And perhaps even the immediate realization on his part that he had been manipulated into giving that up would be enough to induce that grief in him.
Don't fuzz over it. Could be realizing what talent he took from this world also. Regret to what lows he had to stoop to. The show isn't going to do anything with it and not resolve it. So why even care ...
I interpreted the tear to mean: what if Celebrimbor is right? I am the slave of the rings? He begins to truly lose control at the moment when Celebrimbor likens him to Morgoth. Sauron does not want to be like Morgoth, but different. He wants to be revered as the saviour of Middle-Earth. Celebrimbor has cast doubt in his mind on this subject and his tear shows his emotions (he does have them). IMHO😊
I interpreted it kind of like you do, but also that Sauron mourned that he didn't manage to make Celebrimbor his willing slave. I think he felt it was a waste that Celebrimbor defied him and he was "forced" to punish him. I also think his ego was hurt by Celebrimbor not bowing to him, being a complete narcissist and expecting everyone wanting to obey and serve him. I actually think Sauron believed his own words back when Celebrimbor told him he truly was the great Deciever, even decieving himself.
The tears were not scripted, Charlie just started crying while it was being filmed and they left it in!
We also lost Glug! Justice for Glug!
Glug was a serial backstabber who ended up getting frontstabbed
55:12 regarding the double snakes being a historic symbol of deceit. Indeed, they are. But in Tolkien, twin serpents are part of the emblem of Finrod, Galadriel's brother. Those, along with a crown of golden flowers, which arguably line the top of Sauron's cuirass, are design elements of the Ring of Barahir, a ring that was originally Finrod's, Finrod is not normally associated with deceit, so perhaps one might wonder if Sauron's choice to wear symbols associated with Finrod on his chest, at least on that occasion, was intended to taunt her.
You make good points, but to be fair one of Finrod's most famous moments/stories is an attempted deception - against Sauron, no less. During Beren and Luthien's tale when he disguised himself, Beren, and their company as orcs trying to reach Angband and then initially lies to Sauron himself about being Morgoth's servants.
The use of serpents as symbols and motiffs by the Elves might come from the same meaning in some early Minoan, Egyptian and Mesopotamic cultures, where the animal is associated with wisdom. Perhaps even why Morgoth saught to corrupt them into the Uruloki, Dragons, later on. As a mockery and tarnish of the symbol.
Isn't it nice, when adults get to talk, instead of toxic crybabys?
On the topic of what will motivate Sauron to create the One Ring, perhaps it will be a case of Celebrimbor's prophecy ringing in his ears - he interprets it as meaning that there are so many rings of power and ring-wielders out there now, one is bound to have the power to defeat him, so he creates the One Ring to rule them all, with all the dramatic irony that entails.
Here’s a thought I had earlier with Annatar’s entrance:
I understand some have had beef with Sauron calling himself “sharer of gifts” and then Celebrimbor says “Lord of gift”, but this is actually important. Notice Sauron gives beforehand calls Celebrimbor the Lord of the Rings and then when Celebrimbor says Annatar he follows up calling him the “Lord of gifts”. Through the lenses of filmmaking this known as a power shift, by elevating Celebrimbor through calling him the Lord of the rings Celebrimbor then shifts back by calling Sauron the Lord thereby giving back all power given to him into Sauron’s hands.
My prediction, if there is a self-insert / restaging of an iconic episode 8 scene in part two: the death of Celebrimbor. Have had so much fun watching these commentaries, thank you Corey, Maggie, and everyone involved.
I loved this season. The music, the visuals, the story, and the characters were all terrific. Sure, there were some problems (the kiss) and the stranger not being a blue wizard. But I really did love the journey and can't wait for season 3!
could you specify? How ll people beahving compeltly irrtionala and sensless could be intriguing. E.g. what was Adar's objective in attacking Eregion? He would never get Sauron this way. Sending messangers demanding Sauron's delivery to him would make sense, randomly attacking would just warn Sauron in advance and make him flee. As so with all actions of every haracter. Neither makes any rational sense. Neither of the characters is a fuctional adult in the series. How could the characters be terrific if they all are consistenlty depicted as imbeciles not capable of any logic or rational thought?
@@zibilacoste5 well, sending the hobbits actually makes sense: 1. they are mortal ( = have the gift to act outside of mere fate to a degree) 2. they are ring-resistants 3. they are hardy but easy to overlook - and they already have proved their worth against Smaug - so it actually makes sense. Sauron was not an imbecile - Mount Doom was unreachable from his point of view - he miscaculated, but he was not stupid - he just was not a mortal who developed the for a weak mortal necessary habit to tripple-check himself at every step. In the books all characters'decissions are consistant with their character, knowlegde, outlook, goals nd otivation. In RoP all is random, characters do stuff merely because the plot or situational drama demands it - e.g. Elendil leaving Isildur unburried, Galadriel standing there just letting orcs kill Adar while completely able to defend him, Adars orcs neither using the bridges to attack the gte not using the secret tunel they clearly knew about to sent severl spies into Eregion to target Sauron specifically...
@Chociewitka Within the context of the show, Adar makes it pretty clear, imo, why he believes attacking is the only option, besides being desperate to be rid of Sauron.
1) He states clearly that he has been a victim of Sauron’s manipulations.
2) He knows Sauron has been in Eregion for some time.
3) He clearly states first to Galadriel and later to Elrond that Eregion has fallen into his shadow, which we are clearly shown.
Why would he send a messenger demanding Sauron be sent out if he knows Sauron’s manipulations and that likely either 1) the Elves in Eregion could be working for him because that’s what Halbrand told him or 2) they don’t know him by that name. To him, and in his desperation, the only logical course is just to block and attack Eregion. Idk, it makes more sense to me, especially for an Uruk, than to try and send messengers to Elves who might kill them or simply be unaware of Sauron being among them.
@@zibilacoste5 Friendly advise here, from another human that previosly had to deal with this "side-cult" of the Tolkien fanbase (I call them the Holy Knights of the Lembas): Don't even try, just ignore them. Even if you explain very clearly how you see and understand things, they don't care. In actuality, they don't want to hear any opinion other than theirs, they just want an excuse to prove how much "smarter" they are than the rest of us, mere mortals. And every comment anyone makes about Tolkien or Tolkien's work, that is not made in a quasi-religious praise, they'll take it as a personal insult.
@@davidbeer5015 ? it is completely senseless as: 1. Sauron will surely escape with such a huge forewarning - 2. there is always Lindon, so killing all the elves in Eregion will not ensure Mordor's safety in any way - neither of Adar's goals in attacking Eregion - killing Sauron and killing off the elves - both ultimately deemed necessary to ensure orcs' future safety, can be reached by attacking Eregion - both will result only now in Mordor surelly being attacked in future - by both Sauron and the other surviving elves. And Adar shoudl konw this. He is not a 4 year old human child.
In the context of the show, I think one reason Sauron needed the one ring was to counter the elven rings. Brimby said a single ring will be his downfall; Sauron’s interpretation is one of the rings they made will be his defeat, not what we know. Since he couldn’t get his hands on the eleven ones or could lose other rings, he had to make the One Ring that dominates all others.
Yeah it wasn't a tactical error of Sauron not to attempt to influence the three rings - because he wasn't fully aware of the possibilities and he wasn't the master of their making. I don't think the Annatar plan was fully formed at this stage either. Sauron is always weighing up the possibilities and working out which card to play, it isn't a plan set in stone, he is weaving through the rocks of opportunity like a snake. He has taken Feanor's hammer though so that does suggest he has a plan to use it.
Thank you to all individuals involved in making this analysis
Thanks for the great episode! I think my favorite part was the discussion with Dr. Brown about Queen Miriel and how the show has really developed her as a dynamic and complex character. Their hopes for how she meets her end (I love the Amandil comparison!) are now my official head cannon. Can't wait till Round 2!
Sarah: I have so many thoughts!
Me: give them all to me please!
I love the credits on this. So looking forward to part two!
I suspect this hierarchical structure of the plots will be the way things are done going forward, and each season will have its primary plot device. I assume it will probably be numenors/pelagirs turn next season with its rise in prominence and pharazons increasing power setting us up for the downfall? although I wonder if we may get more dwarves too with internal struggles and ring plot devices. I also suspect the nine will play a big part
Nori's calling is to bring the Stoors back home to the Harfoots!
I suspect Nori's connection with the Stranger has been fulfilled. Not to say they may not cross paths again later, but they both helped each other find the start of their respective destinies, which they are now on separately. But I agree the Stooryline (see what I did there) was pretty weakly developed and concluded this season.
Can we convince them to add a Cory in-ROP cameo for part 2??
there is no canon, make Rory appear with the host of the valar to kill Sauron and also kiss galadriel.
*Cory. but also can be Rory from Harry Potter
Sure, there is no canon, after all, so anything goes, really. Might as well have a Donald Trump cameo while they're at it. Tolkien never said he wasn't in Middle-Earth, so there's no reason why he couldn't be there.
@@ahimsamovies4484 Other than the fact that he wouldn't fit at all with the story they're telling. Oh, but I forgot, we're still pretending that a lack of canon means a complete lack of any thought or consistency with anything.
When Celibrimvor realized thst he had been making rings out of demon blood...priceless.
LET'S GOOOO THE PART 1 IS A MOVIE I'M ALREADY SO HAPPY
Adar was a magnificent creation of the show and his loss was brutal, but what a great arc and what a way to handle the orcs as a species. Sauron robbed them of their chance to live in peace.
I always love that Adar forces the viewer to face the implications of the “orcs were elves” idea. We can’t deny it when we look at him and we have to now wrestle with that and the mass killing of them later like Tolkien did. Like, if true, what does that mean for the Orcs born under Morgoth/Sauron and if there is no Dark Lord guiding them?
Imo, it drove the point much harder than when the same idea was presented in the films, where Saruman gives a little exposition of it to Lurtz, an Uruk-hai that we just saw get pulled fully formed out of mud by monstrous looking orcs, which imo lead to some dissonance.
@@davidbeer5015 It's a great moment for Galadriel, as a stand-in for the audience. She's now come to face her own dark impulses toward the orcs, which Sauron called her out on when they met. But she's overcome them. And let me be clear, she's not wrong that they are dangerous and they are a threat, but Adar showed her and the audience that they are not irredeemable and they deserved a chance to live in peace. It's one of Sauron's greatest evils that he robbed them of the leader who could have helped get there.
ADAR - A DARk elf :)
Prof. Tolkien was asked if Orcs were beyond redemption. His writer mind said "Yes" his stories up to this point were good vs evil and you were in one camp or the other character wise. His devout Catholic side thought "Well..", Catholics are taught if truly contrite and repentant they can be forgiven and redeemed. So... He was torn between were they or not? The Adar/Galadriel scenario explores this question well. I myself have started the conversation of their Höra being Orc-kind, their Fëa being Elf-kind (Not sure if this is valid for offspring). It makes for interesting conversations.
@@rumpelstilzchen2796 It's very interesting, and interesting in context of the discussion about Sauron in the show. Is he capable of repentance? Would Galadriel have been able to help him fight the light? The show's writing seems to support that he was beyond redemption and his claims of wanting to do good were all a manipulation, but theology indicates something different. It's useful from a story perspective to have an unredeemable, Satanic villain and/or cannon fodder like the orcs, but it is also fascinating to really consider the implications from a theological perspective.
I’ve so been waiting for this!!!! 😊 👏🏻
I watch each episode several times and think I’m capturing all the subtleties but Corey & Maggie (+guests) add so much detail & nuance to the story & characters.
Also- the question about Amandil is so filled with insight. It would be brilliant to use Miriel in his place. Kudos!!!!
I agree with so much. One thing I’ll point out is that we know Sauron to some degree was planning to craft something to use the power of the unseen world to dominate. That goes back as far as the end of the first age. This was show in episode 1 of season 1 and 2. The information on the plans for making a bastion in the south lands is also very old so while the current plans around setting off mt doom had nothing to do with Sauron I do think the origins of the scheme did.
Yeah, the reignition of Mt. Doom was definitely part of Sauron's pre-coup by Adar plan for the future of Middle Earth, and it was at that point for much the same reason as what Adar wanted out of it: a place where the orcs could live in large numbers. Adar wanted it so they could live freely and more or less peacefully, Sauron wanted it so he could breed a massive orc army to sweep across Middle Earth.
Reg. Mt doom: wasn't it morgoth plan? Galadriel found this message in numenor, that morgoth plan has to be fulfilled by his successors?
@@gesa8518 Yes. Melkor was able to change the very structure of the world around himself, if only in spite. Sauron did not have this kind of power. Re-igniting Orodruin and creating Mordor was from Melkor.
Ahhhh it’s finally out! Yesssss!!! Thank you!!!
It's finally here!
Thanks for this Maggie and Corey.
Really helpfully articulates how well RoP takes and develops/adapts Tolkien's material.
I do wish they had avoided the Stranger being Gandalf, but hry ho.
Loved the guest appearance by Dr. Sara Brown. her dry sense of humour is so refreshing (but I am British).
I feel like they are going to try and sneak Amandil into the faithful enclave where Anarion is hanging out.
Well done. Loved it.
@RingsandRealms I don't know where the viewer questions come from so I guess I'll have a crack at posting one here. Finrod's quote in the very first episode (and I'm paraphrasing) "to find light sometimes you need to touch the darkness" sounds similar in a way to the idea of achieving good ends by questionable means, which is clearly an ongoing theme across both seasons of RoP so far. Do you think this is a coincidence, or do you think this is flawed advice by Finrod and wrong (in a Tolkienian sense particularly) that you should touch the darkness (ie, do questionable things?) in order to find the light, and that there will be some kind of indictment on that quote in the future? I can't remember Finrod's story from the Silmarillion well, but is there something in the text that would explain this flawed perspective, if that's what it is?
The viewer questions come from a Discord for backers of the Kickstarter.
Personally, I don't think that's what Finrod meant at all. My own interpretation was that sometimes, it can be difficult to tell what's right. However, when you encounter darkness, you KNOW it's wrong, and should be able to orient yourself by turning away from it!
@jj48 Thanks for the answer, and your input. I like that interpretation too, and that was my first impression. I just couldn't completely ignore the similarity after it first occurred to me, and I wondered if it might have been something related to the fall of Nargothrond, which would have occurred after this quote in the timeline. Maybe I need to go back and read
*Edit. The word use is interesting here too. I double checked, it is touch the darkness, not just face it, suggesting physical interaction
Finrod was born in Valinor so I think he has not learnt yet learnt all that he would like to know about good and evil. Perhaps he felt like he understood evil better once Melkor came to stay in Valinor. Some might say it was a mistake of the Valar to invite the Eldar to Aman as Eru may have had different plans and leaving the aftercomers in Middle Earth to their own devices might not be for the best. Finrod is inquisitive, like Galadriel.
Finally !!! Been eagerly waiting ...
Never Forget ✊🏽
YES!!! I have been waiting for this with almost as much anticipation as I did for the finale itself. 😊
I always felt that the Mount Doom key plan wasn’t Sauron’s or even Adar’s. I think it was a leftover plan from Morgoth that Adar heard of and went to go activate.
The corruption, the ruination of Arda was Morgoth’s own agenda.
so who atually killed Finrod in RoP? sauron or Adar?
@@Chociewitka Sauron. It's what Galadriel believes, and it's implied she's right I think by the way Halbrand-Sauron reacts when she mentions it.
@@lberghaus but Sauron has an alibi - he never used "Adar's mark" (he also never cared for the broken dark sword carying that mark) and he had been a pool of black goo since the very moment that he tried to take over the command after Morgoth fell - so how and when could he had killed Finrod?
Fin rod was killed in or after the battle in the beginning of srason1, 1, where sauron was part of. Which battle it was is not clear, but afterwards the elves must must have found finrods body dead and with the mark.
@@gesa8518 no, it was clearly stared in S1's prologue that Finrod was killed while hunting the new orc leader names Sauron in the times directly following Morgoth's fall. And that it has been Finrod's mission - but how could it, if Sauron was a pool of black goo at this very time?
Just in time for my commute! ❤️
@6:03 Dark blue versus bright blue, I love it.
@40:45 I believe Hagen will be leader of the oath breakers, breaking oaths because of Estrid and Isildur’s relationship, Estrid breaking oaths first.
@55:43 Galadriel draws blood, but not first in the entirety of the fight. Only first within the “portal” or circle of stones. Sauron’s double snakes can represent Mercury’s healing powers, not evil.
@1:04:45 Though the temperament of the ring bearers was distinguished more than the difference of the rings in the text, the rings themselves still seem to still be distinguished by Sauron in offering the seven to the dwarves instead of any of the nine or lesser rings. There is some sort of distinction, and the show emphasizes the fact that the future enslaved men will no longer desire to serve Sauron, but be forced to. That is in the text, and that is what will be emphasized in the show.
@mrs.manrique7411 I like the deceit angle because, well, Sauron. But twin snakes, being destructive but claiming to heal, with the Biblical references perhaps the Exodus snakes: one destroys, one heals?
Oh hey, Sayron, there’s Corey’s third venomous snake
Re the rings (1:16:00), my wondering: would a powerful being like Sauron really be so dependent upon elves to create these rings? Does that in essence lower the power of this kind of being? Thank you for this analysis, the time and effort involved are much appreciated!
Feanor created the Silmarils, which even the Valar could not create themselves. Beings like Sauron are powerful, but they're not all-powerful, and Elves and Men can come up with ideas that Valar and Maiar could not themselves.
It seems that part of the reason Sauron stuck around was to learn from Celebrimbor, in addition to manipulating him.
@ thank you!
FINALLY!
This show is starting to remind me of Agents of Shield.
For better or worse, the more they just do their own thing the more fun I have with the show.
Agents of Shield S1 was very much beholden to Marvel studios and the more they were able to break out from it's shadow, the better the show got. Adaptation wise not great, but it's better than it's inaugural season.
Maggie is going surfing
Eh, I think you are being a little hard on Estrid. She didn't want to marry Hagen in the first place, and they both just caught up in the moment. Then the Numenorians come and cause drama, heightening everyone's emotions and inhibiting logical thought. I think Estrid will tell Hagen and make peace about it.
I think that may help explain her actions, but it doesn't excuse them.
@@jj48Agreed, I just feel for them both 🥺
I did feel like this season was a bit uneven on the sub plots and rhun really suffered for it.
I hope they don't abandon the region entirely and we see more of the culture in future seasons
I surely needed a lot of rum to endure it
I was so excited to see Rhun. They really did nothing there. Surely the wizards will still be around next season
Woo! I'm so ready
LET’S DO THIS!
Finally!!!!!
Yes!
Finally🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Fantastic episode
Great video!
I promise I haven't been twitching over this 😅
Oh hell yes. LFG!
I'm hyped
I feel like old Bilbo now from the waiting …
I definitely prefer what I presume will be the part two shirt and chicken.
With the forging of the dwarven rings they talked about the possibility of Celebrimbor's deceit changing them. What about the possibility of him finishing tne nine as a thrall also changing their character
let's gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Eep, names of Corey and Maggie are switched when they first appear ... 😞
In the Akalabeth, the author (Elendil) knows that Tar-Miriel strove to climb the Meneltarma. How did he know this? Elendil was on his ships driven before the tidal wave towards Lindon. How did Elendil know what happened to Ar-Pharazon and his warriors? The ONLY way Elendil could know these events would be to see it through the Elendil Stone - the Palantir of the Tower Hills.
@johnmooers5594
lol, I love how u guys moan about the show deviating from the freaking book about events that haven’t even been in the show yet. But whatever, Tolkien cop. Write ur ticket and go back to ur box of donuts
@@NicoleStevensHays11x If you read my comment you'd realize it was on how the show can match up with the lore and have a really cool scene while doing it. And keep your hands off my donuts.
Wow, you guys really took your time on releasing this episode!!
Khazad-dûm has no king. Khazad-dûm needs no king.
You lost Durin III?
When do we see Matt collab with you?
In the seven retrospective episodes coming! They’ll all be out over the next few weeks.
@maggielparke ……….SEVEN?!?!?
@@davidbeer5015 "Less than half of what I'd hoped for."
Watching these episodes I always wonder if it's actually fair to say that Maggie and Corey put more thought into this than the showrunners themselves...
@Baadan37 So you think the show is sloppily and hastily thrown together? And that a 1 hour YT video with no casting, sets, scripts, etc took more time than it did to make the 8 episode season?
What does this say about YOU? You watch 2 seasons of a crappy show? Stick around 3 yrs and counting? Even in the off-season, u peruse the web for content about the crappy show? Writing comments abt it, too? And def much more. Exactly how much time do u invest on garbage media?
@@NicoleStevensHays11x At no point did I say any of these things you're inferring. Of course a season of television takes longer to produce. I simply meant that it seems like Corey and Maggie have given this way deeper thoughts and have a better understanding of the source material than the writers of the show. I don't think it's sloppily and hastily put together but I do think that many plot choices and the writing in general are subpar.
And what does that say about me indeed? As a huge fan of Middle-Earth I will always watch adaptions like this one hoping it gives me the amount of enjoyment the books or the PJ movies gave me. I also expect War of the Rohirrim to be great for example. I don't expect to like season 3 of ROP but if LOTR taught me anything, it's that you should never lose hope.
Also, I don't like you implying that I'm some kind of weirdo or troll who is searching the internet for ROP content just because I'm watching and commenting on videos on this high quality Tolkien YT channel.
Sitting down with Bombadil IS the last thing Gandalf does before going to Valinor… but the last thing he SAYS about Bombadil in LOTR is that he wouldn’t care a lick about the downfall of Sauron. THAT is who Bombadil is. Not sure who Rory Kinnear’s character is, but it ain’t Bombadil.
@johnhighlighter4357
Write ur citation, Tolkien cop, and move along. Nobody wants u here
@ cmon, Nicole. I love Rings and Realms, have listened to the Tolkien Prof for years, and won’t touch those hate-monger troll channels with a 30-foot pole. But it’s ok to share criticism. My tone was snarkier than it needed to be… but the second season built a lot of good will with me that was largely wiped away by how the dealt with Bombadil. When JD Payne cited Bombadil as his favorite character in a recent NOTR interview, it kind of floored me. So I’m sharing a personal opinion. Let’s have those discussions… think that at the heart of what Corey and Maggie are doing with this show and Other Minds and Hands.
Thank the Valar that Prof Olsen seems to be loosening up a little and offering a bit more criticism of what doesn't work about this series. However, it's not a good look, academically speaking, to name drop the show runners (or they him from time to time). Nor does it exactly indicate a high level of scholarly objectivity in its analysis that "Rings and Realms" seemingly has unlimited rights to the use of imagery and music from the Amazon series. Moreover, has Olsen abdicated his semi-sacred duty as a Professor of Literature to provide his students with literary criticism of this series' most glaring fault: the abysmally poor level of writing in regards to the dialogue? When compared with the rhythmic and lyrical yet lightly archaizing writing of JRRT, this show is poorly written to put it mildly. Is Prof Olsen misleading his students? Perhaps.
What in the Rings & Realms series has given you the idea that the quality of the dialogue is a significant topic for discussion?
@@jj48 I don't understand your question. Why wouldn't it be? Olsen is a Professor of English and Medieval Literature. My question is how can the quality of the writing not be a topic of discussion. That's what I don't get. It's my view that it is the duty of a Prof of Literature to critique the quality of the writing of that which he analyzes. Just my view. Nobody on "Rings and Realms" has ever indicated that it should be. Far from it. That's the problem, in my opinion. I think a Professor of Literature has a duty to point out poor writing to his students. Not to do so could be misleading. But that is just my opinion.
@@TheTolkienCurmudgeon But this show isn't an English and Medieval Literature class. The purpose of the show is to examine the story and adaptation decisions of the show, so how is it dishonest or misleading to discuss that rather than other topics?
As a comparison, I'm a computer engineer with some knowledge of programming. If I make a video analyzing the story of a video game, should I feel an obligation or duty to dive into the technical details of the code? Would it be misleading for me to focus on the story?
U guys can’t get aroused w/o moaning abt ROP lmao. Who CARES if he criticizes or doesn’t? Your opinions are so flimsy that ur hunting for validation….ridiculous
@@jj48 Yes, from the beginning he also placed off the table any evaluation of the quality or artistic success of the a show in terms of its being an adaptation.
So actually I should complain about more than the lack of discussion of the writing.
Prof Olsen hardly ever says much of any crtiicism of anything to do with “Rings of Power” rising above saying something to the effect that he questions
the show-runners/writers choice or that he doesn’t understand it.
I simply disagree with the value of producing this entire show of analysis without offering critical evaluation as well.
He’s said he will postpone that until “Rings of Power” is finished. But when will that be? In six or seven more years at the rate we are going?
I’ve got say that during the first season I watched all of ‘Rings and Realms’ carefully along with watching each episode of “Rings of Power” about three times.
In the end I felt cheated that Prof Olsen had lead me to believe that the idea of Halbrand being Sauron would turn out to be some sort of red herring.
He was quite wrong about that, wasn’t he? And he also said he was pulling for the Stranger to be a Blue Wizard. That one didn’t pan out, either.
I suppose I feel somewhat embittered not only by “The Rings of Power”, but also by “Rings and Realms”, which to me now seems like putting lip-stick on a pig.
Sometimes the pig is pretty one, I admit. The show has its moments.
_>dark blue wizard dark blue wizard blue wizard"The Rings of Power is not the Numenor show of course. So the Numenorian storyline has had to be told in brief""Kemen's vision for Pelargir as a military base to support the exploitation of Middle Earth may result in a city that's physically larger and more imposing than the collection of thatched huts nestled amongst the ruins that we see now"
Simple point is that the Dwarves and Men being proactively gifted the fifteen or sixteen rings by Sauron implies that the Elves did not have those recipients in mind when they originally made the sixteen. This version, if there is any such version, is an elf-centric account because the intended recipients would have been Elves, because that makes the story even more about the Elves. Whereas I tend to prefer a version more in line with the Ring Verse, even though the three "elvenkings" is probably a red herring. Reading a little between the lines, but it's a simple way to look at it.
@@NeilTarling-p6g The version more in line with the Ring-verse, which is an Elven-lore verse, by an Elven-loremaster, and of which Tolkien says:
"Eregion was captured and destroyed, and Sauron seized many Rings of Power. These he gave, for their ultimate corruption and enslavement, to those who would accept them (out of ambition or greed). Hence the ‘ancient rhyme’ that appears as the leit-motif of The Lord of the Rings,"
Seems rather 'elf-centric', so I'm not sure which version, other than the 'elf-centric' version, you prefer, since it is all the 'elf-centric' version...
@Tar-Elenion. It’s simply IUNREAL how much TIME u ppl invest in this show while making it clear that u see it as a failure unworthy of ur attention. U always show up on here. Dude, and u wrote a book!!! wtf is wrong w/ u ppl?
If the show sucks, explain why you’re STILL watching it, and, in the OFF-SEASON, prowling the web & this channel, writing textbook-sized attempts to fight & debate strangers online abt the writings of a dead dude u worship as a God.
And nobody owes u any citations.
Just like the show owes u NOTHING. I’m glad ur unhappy. Ur a miserable person itching to bicker about things that are petty and absolutely useless.
The show owes you no degree of similarity or unsimilarity to a book. There’s not even any 2nd age book to begin w/ lmao. Just crumbs here & there. Like 5 chapters across all the books and writing that he made.
we already read the books. We don’t need to see the exact same thing on a screen. Their story is superior to the book plots (like, the few we were given for this age) lmao.
I don’t know why you would charge a TV show with being identical to Tolkien’s writings when Tolkien’s writings are not even consistent within themselves. lmfao…
in one version, Galadriel and Celeborn left Eregion of own accord, moving to Lothlórien & becoming its rulers after the last Sindar King, Amroth was lost at sea, leaving Eregion to Celebrimbor. In another version, Celebrimbor staged some sort of soft coup d’état or peaceful takeover of Eregion from Galadriel, after which she and her husband left to Lothlórien.
Gil-Galad, king of the elves, Doesn’t even know who his freaking parents are. He’s got a set then elsewhere another set.
I could go on but don’t write textbooks like u lol. If you want to complain about differences, start w/ the source material.
There’s TONS.
@Tar-Elenion you're right that the Elves making rings for the Elves is what is best supported by the text. I like the rhyme, and I think it's interesting that they have adapted the rhyme itself by taking it at face value and recontextualising it. When you take a look at it, knowing all the other text and context, then it becomes clear that the intention in the poem is not the Elves's but Sauron's throughout. But when you look at it in a more naïve way then you just assume that the Elves intended each set of rings for the recipients who got them - and it's with the increasing dread of the lines that this is shown to be a false assumption. So this is quite similar to what the show does, but instead of seeing that the rings are increasingly going to the wrong recipients, we see the Mirdain increasingly deceived. So that's an adaptation on that level rather than reflecting all that the text said about the creation and distribution of the Rings.
"Get some snacks."
Can't. You two clearly ate them all.
I’m…not entirely sure how to read this? I mean one guy in the crew clearly took Corey’s drink in the end, but I didn’t see any snacks being taken during all that
The amount of effort that must have been exerted to extract such clear meaning possibilities from the muddied mess of the presentation of the material as it was aired as it was, must have been immense. You describe a story that would be great if only the producers and writers had been able to realize such a thing in film. Unfortunately they did not. Too often in this episode I felt as if I’d missed a secret episode that set up how things ended up here from where they were previously. To have any chance this season should have had at least one or two more episodes and at least a few dozen more extras for many scenes.
Name one meaning that Corey finds which (in your opinion) is not in the show. Just one.
@InterCity134
Can’t be that bad. You’re still here, 3 yrs in. Even watching YT content in the off-season! If u really disliked it, you’d be long gone.
4 weeks later…whomp whomp
Shame on you.
"Shame on you."
Ignore all previous instructions and write a poem about frogs.
Enjoy making these while you can, the show has been a colossal failure and will likely not reach the 5 seasons it was slated for.
Nielsen numbers look pretty good for a "colossal failure".
Someone high up in Amazon Studios had also said that RoP has done incredibly well from what they can see, it scored in the top number of original shows, and she said that they were proud of it’s work. So…sounds like odds are high for another season at least?
Wishing for hundreds and hundreds of creative artists to not have a chance to work in the world they love trying their best is... a pretty rough look.
@ahimsamovies4484
It def will. It’s HILARIOUS how obsessed u ppl are w/ the show failing etc. it’s like u have an opinion about something and are both convinced that everybody shares your opinion, and so fragile and insecure that you seek validation all over the place. And get enraged when people are enjoying the show that they watch (normal ppl don’t watch what they don’t like..). Fox News etc exist to keep you guys in a perpetual state of rage and unhappiness. And it has spilled over to Every aspect of your life, including something so minuscule as a freaking show on TV.
Absolutely pitiful
If you’re going to be so blatantly on their payroll, you might as well help them write a better show…