Joss Whedon at 'Make Equality Reality'
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- On 4 November 2013, Equality Now honored award-winning writer, director, producer and former Advisory Board member, Joss Whedon, for his work on gender equality at its 'Make Equality Reality' event in Beverly Hills, California. Here, in his own words, he digs into the nature of the word 'feminist' and proposes an alternative. #endgenderism
Footage courtesy of Wire Image.
Well, this aged well....
This has aged like milk.
Spoiled milk
Why do you keep fantasizing about strong female characters? Because I do not recognize them until they are gone.
Well this aged badly.
Wrong, Joss. Every person is born as every possible "a-something-ist" position. We are born without beliefs. The suffix, "-ist" denotes a belief. "A-" is Greek for without. We're all born atheists and remain one until believing in deities, if we do.
Hear-bloody-hear.
That was the one thing that really grated at me out of everything that he'd said as well; everyone IS in fact born an atheist - since all it suggests is the absence of belief. But I figured it wasn't the object of the talk, so it might have been in poor-place to bring it up.
Holy Mangina Batman!
Funny how feminists destroyed this guy after he made Age of Ultron. He still made excuses for them, wake up man.
We already have a term for all this. It's called egalitarianism, or humanism.
No, that would be the opposite of what Joss wants "genderist" to mean.
You're right, if you're talking about genderist; however, this was in December of 2003 and I don't remember what I was speaking about specifically.
Sally Miller Gearhart - the feminist teacher and author who helped to set up one of the first gender and women study programs at San Francisco State University and even has a fund named in her honour at the Oregon State University - had these charming thoughts on ethnic cleansing (sorry, I mean equality):
"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race." -The Future - If There Is One - Is Female.
Robin Morgan the egalitarian philanthropist who is widely credited with being one of the founders of the second wave feminism in the US had the following pearls of altruism to offer:
"I haven’t the faintest notion what possible revolutionary role white hetero- sexual men could fulfill, since they are the very embodiment of reactionary- vested-interest-power. But then, I have great difficulty examining what men in general could possibly do about all this. In addition to doing the shitwork that women have been doing for generations, possibly not exist? No, I really don’t mean that. Yes, I really do."
Germaine Greer’s The Female Eunuch was the publishing phenomenon of the early 1970s. It sold out its first printing in three months and sold hundreds of thousands of copies worldwide. It elevated its author into a position unrivalled by any contemporary feminist - as one of the leading cultural celebrities of our time, showered with honorary doctorates and deluged in royalties. Far more significant than sales figures, however, was The Female Eunuch’s impact in triggering the worldwide movement of modern feminism.
Here she shares some of her thoughts on the equality that feminists are championing for men too:
"I have a great deal of difficulty with the idea of the ideal man. As far as I’m concerned, men are the product of a damaged gene."
"All societies on the verge of death are masculine. A society can survive with only one man; no society will survive a shortage of women."
"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."
still, if feminists say it is about equality then it must be true.
Kurt Daluege those people are biased...
Wub-0-Tronic Is that a code word for self absorbed, narcissist hate monger?
Kurt Daluege not quite... Absorbed, deluded, narcissist hat monger :p
Feminism is NOT defending the idea that women are people. It's initially the idea that all around the world and through all ages, men are oppressors to women, and in order to stop that oppression, women must claim equal rights. This idea is of course true in many cases, and it has done a lot of good, but it can't be generalized.
Life in society does not revolve around the battle of the sexes, it revolves around class struggle. Rich people oppress poor people, rich countries oppress poor countries, that's the reality of our world. And as women are not one single mass, they can be the oppressor or the oppressed, depending on their social status or power. Between a wealthy woman and her male valet, driver, gardener, cleaner, who is more inclined to be the oppressor? What about adding a maid to that equation? Can a woman oppress another woman?
Also in order to gain equal rights, feminism has developed the idea that men and women are the exact same, which is clearly false, we are very much alike but still different. And that difference does not take away the fact that we should have equal rights and duties as citizens. Recently, some feminists even went with the idea that women are basically better than men, another empty generality, as in some cases it is true, and in others it is not. So to be honest I enjoyed Joss's speech as it was very witty, but I found it very poor content wise.
Just can't see why we have to have a gender specific word for equality when we already have the words egalitarian and humanist.
OSlatraigh So we don't need words like "racism", or "antisemitism" either? Women are still being treated unequal all over the world. They are still oppressed, all over the world. Even in developed countries like the US, UK and sweden we stil have enormous gaps in wages, women are still being raped by the millions, women are still being sold and bought against their will.
We need words to shed light on these issues and to fight them. Of course, you could start saying people are "anti-humanist", that sounds good to me. But for historic reason you can't just stop using well established words and start using new ones over night. We still need words like racism, antisemitism, sexism, because they're still relevant because people are still racists, antisemites, sexists and using to broad words to describe them makes it harder for people to relate to them. Nobody's racist but sort of everyone is racist. See my point?
OSlatraigh Feminism is different from equality or humanism. As I said in my first comment, feminism is an ideological movement founded by people, it has purposes (that have changed multiple times between the 19th century and today). It's not just a word as Whedon pretends. Equality is a utopian idea created to make some balance but there is no such thing as true equality. What's equality between a cripple and a professional athlete? Even the clearest form of equality, which is equality of citizens under the same law is not fair, there are immense gaps. As for humanism, it is a cultural stream that saw its meaning change over the ages and countries. You're comparing apples and oranges my friend.
Alexander Ottosson women are still being treated unequal all over the world" is what you say. I can't say you're wrong but you're not exactly right either. I think you're generalizing, but I won't repeat myself. If you're interested please read my first comment.
But when feminists discuss inequality and when we're talking about patriarchy we are talking about men's issues too. Patriarchy effects men badly as well. But to say that inequality of men is AS big of a problem as the oppression of women, is ridiculous. Women are still being raped, bought, sold, harrassed in a much higher degree than men. Inequality still hits women a lit harder and we need to acknowledge this. Men's inequality issues are important too but we're not raped or sold globally, daily. I mean, it's just not the same.
I'm not sure who you are arguing against. Most feminists want equality. Period. They don't think less of men. Obviously. As a man, I would never be able to stomach being the "bad guy" in feminiat circles. This idea of the radical, man hating feminist is not representative of feminism. It's not what it's about.
I mean, i'm not married with the word "feminism". But a lot of people tends to use the word as an excuse for not listening to what feminists have to say. We're discussing semantics while women (and men) are suffering the horrible effects of inequality every day.
I think you're debating a charicature of feminism. Being a feminist myself I can't relate to simplistic views you seem to impose on us. I would encourage you to look beyond the term and try to engage in discussions and forums of feminists. There's a lot of them here on youtube. I'm not defending every feminist and you should not dismiss every feminist. It's a huge movement with a lot of different voices. And I said earlier I might be able to get behind Whedon for the reasons he give but not for reasons you and many others give which seem to root in a misunderstanding of what feminism is today.
Joss Whedon: “The word [‘feminist’] is problematic for me because there’s another word that we’re missing. Words have failed us. And I’d like to use, as an example, race. In the public discourse, there’s one word to deal with race: ‘racism.’ That is the word. And it implies something very important. It implies something that we are passed. When you say ‘racist,’ you are saying, ‘That is a negative thing. That is a line that we have crossed. Anything on the other side of that line is shameful, is on the wrong side of history.’ And that is a line that we crossed, in terms of gender, but we don’t have the word for it. People are confronted by the word ‘feminist,’ and it stops them.” (05:23.)
Okay, I’m with you.
Joss Whedon: “Being on the wrong side of history, in terms of the oppression of women, is being on the whole [wrong side] of history.” (6:27.)
I couldn't agree more.
Joss Whedon: “If you’re someone who genuinely believes that women don’t deserve as much as men, you’re like the plague.” (06:55.)
I agree.
Joss Whedon: “There’s no fuzzy middle ground. You either believe that women are people or you don’t. It’s that simple.” (08:15.)
Absolutely true.
Joss Whedon: “You don’t have to hate someone to destroy them. You just have to not get it.” (09:20.)
Sadly, true too.
Joss Whedon: “My pitch is this word. ‘Genderist.’ I would like this word to be become the new ‘racist.’ I would like a word that says, ‘There was a shameful past before we realized that all people were created equal, and we are past that. And every evolved human being who is intelligent and educated and compassionate is past that.’ And to say, ‘I don’t believe that,’ is unacceptable.” (10:57.)
I couldn't agree more.
Thank you Joss, you’re the way forward.
LBB.
This comment sadly aged poorly. He had multiple people say the equality and feminism thing was basically a front to hide his complete misogyny. You should hear what the actors from all his projects have stepped forward saying that he did.
We don't treat women like people. We treat women like princesses and goddesses. There's a reason women think their shit doesn't stink. They have been taught by many that they are infallible. Sad but true.
You think this is bad, take a look at what he said about Anita Sarkeesian. m.digitalspy.com/gaming/news/a593351/joss-whedon-tim-schafer-back-tropes-vs-women-author-following-threats.html#~oOs2yYxoPuogT7
spiffaz How so?
I don't understand what you're asking. You're looking for details about data showing we don't treat women as princess and goddesses?
GainsbourgSerge Nice use of sarcasm.
If you were just having a cup of coffee and nothing else to do you may like to listen to Joss Whedon's speech about what's wrong with the word 'feminist' and such for #IWD2014 . Enjoy!
It's funny looking at this after feminists turned on him and consider him the enemy after he slipped up just a little bit.
One thing I like about the new youtube comments: the trolls' comments are practically hidden from view, they are ignored and they have lost their power.
Joss, you are a wonderful person. I don't have to ask you to keep being awesome, because that's not within your disposition. I look forward to hearing more from you on this issue.
Perhaps now you'll be able to tell a troll's comment from a well-thought out critique.
This has always been my problem with the word feminism - why do we need a word for treating women like people? Yes, self-proclaimed feminists have eviscerated me for saying this in the past. Thanks for some validation, Joss.
The word "feminist" is a problem no feminist wants to address. More power to you Joss.
Feminism isn't a word for treating women like people. It's a word that says there should be equal human right and treatment for the sexes.
Chisom Akunne
I don't understand the distinction you are making.
I'm just saying that feminism isn't a word that means "treating women like people". Feminism means equal political, social and economic rights for both men and women.
No it does not. That is the verbatim definition of egalitarianism.
The fallacy is he thinks that you have to be a feminist to believe in equality. And that simply isn't true.
+thenewkidd ...because I said so. Logic.
+thenewkidd Going by the fact that feminism is the belief that women should be treated equally to men, I'd say that it is true.
Dictionary definition - 'the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.'
Aleks Podraza Given that the actions of what feminists do over a definition in a book I would say it isn't true.
But if you would like to take a crack at my five questions that not one feminist has been able to answer.. I would be happy to give them to you.. till then... I will leave you with one question.
If feminism means equality why did the "majority" of feminists remain complacent and allow a law such as Manspreading get passed that only affects men when women take up just as much room if not more room with their bags (google "shebagging" if you need evidence)... so much for a definition in a book.
I have quite a few more questions that feminists cannot answer. proving by it's actions, it isn't for equality.
Your fallacious argument of 'all feminists do this one thing therefore the definition of feminism is incorrect' is not exactly inviting me to watch your video on feminism. You clearly know nothing about the movement. You've made fallacious assessments on it without having done the most basic of research. If you're video is so groundbreaking, then why are gender students not studying it at universities? If it's such a creditable study, why is no-one talking about it? A RUclips thesis is as useful as a fart in a forest fire.
Your second paragraph provides no evidence, I'm gonna dismiss it as drivel, as should anyone reading it.
You are attacking feminism from the precious male position of power. It's really not admirable.
Aleks Podraza
Here we go:
*Your fallacious argument of 'all feminists do this one thing therefore the definition of feminism is incorrect' is not exactly inviting me to watch your video on feminism.*
I'm not inviting you to watch anything. But it's not a fallacy if there isn't one feminist campaign that you can point to to prove your side.. period.
Now tell me how a "majority" would allow such a law to get passed if feminism meant equality?
Sorry, feminism doesn't have a monopoly on equality and you cannot simply define feminism in a simple definition. It is an ideology. full stop.
*You clearly know nothing about the movement.*
If I had a nickle for every time I heard that I think I would be a millionaire. Sorry, I know quite a bit about the movement.. it's fallacious "no true scotsman" fallacies to distance themselves from radicals and all sorts of misleading FALSE statistics to fear monger women into thinking men are the problem.. yes. I know quite a bit.. how many citations do you need before you break from from this dogmatic religion?
*You've made fallacious assessments on it without having done the most basic of research.*
Again, you are wrong, I have read quite a bit so your claim falls flat.
Does the movement not talk about patriarchy theory? if it does.. then feminism believes in supporting it.
I could go deeper but you will just dismiss it anyway.. I have done so much research that I am surprised when I hear something a feminist says is true.
*If you're video is so groundbreaking, then why are gender students not studying it at universities?*
My videos aren't groundbreaking. They simply take the claims of the movement and put them to the test.
When you have a "Gender Studies" class assert something as non disputable fact.. and "not up for debate" there is a problem.
When you have gender studies put forth a theory that is seriously flawed and taught as if it is true.. then there is a problem.
Just because it is taught in universities doesn't make it true.
*If it's such a creditable study, why is no-one talking about it? A RUclips thesis is as useful as a fart in a forest fire.*
Which study are you even talking about.. I never mention any single particular study.
Feminism is a useful as a fart in a forest fire.. your analogy means nothing.
*Your second paragraph provides no evidence, I'm gonna dismiss it as drivel, as should anyone reading it.*
I and the majority of the population will dismiss feminism as a hateful movement like it is.
Feminism might say it mean's equality... sorry.. actions speak louder than words... You cannot back up your claims and dismiss people that call themselves feminists because YOU don't want them to.
You clearly have no idea what a fallacy is.
This. #JossWhedon is spot on. So impressive. If I could give this more pluses, shares, and likes I would.
He was cheating on his wife when he did this.
I don't 'believe' women are people, I know they are people, and I treat them as such.. the problem is that you feminists, and even women in general are the ones that don't believe women are people.. you believe they're goddesses, free and incapable of sin, and immune to scrutiny.
They can say they're a feminist but if they don't believe in equality between genders then they're actually not feminists, they're genderist.
We think we're goddesses who are free and incapable of sin? ... who have you been talking to? As far as I know people who believe in equality (the right to vote, own a business, drive, receive an education and have a say in our reproductive rights) identify as feminists.
Ryan K The definition of feminism: the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.
People who believe women are superior are NOT feminists. People who man hate, are NOT feminists. I am a woman and I know that I can do wrong, because I am a person. I'm only human. Everyone makes mistakes. Man, woman, African, Caucasian, anyone, everyone. Don't just say "you feminists" because you obviously have never met a feminist.
Katie Dahl oh look, there's that definition again. I swear, its almost as if it serves as a shield, protecting you from hate that is at the core of feminism. but im sure you're delusional enough to be able to gloss over those things. and I have met plenty of feminists. don't think you're all the same, because just like you said, everyone makes mistakes, and feminists have been fucking up from the start.
Ryan K if you read the definition of feminism it means that we fight for equality for men and women alike. That's it. Nothing else. Nowhere does it say we hate the opposite sex just because they're the opposite sex. Not only women are feminists, if you haven't noticed. If you believe women are people and treat them the same as you treat men, hate to break it to you, but you're a feminist.
All the people in the comments praising Joss. I wonder if they would say the same thing knowing what we know now.
Probably not…at least I hope they dont
I looked him up on Google, and the feminist backlash has definitely started. So far, they are somewhat tame, but I don't do tumbler or reddit or any of that. I'm sure it is much worse there.
They invariably throw everyone under the bus, most especially their own.
Faerydragon The funny part is, that he basically said what most of us on RUclips have been saying. Well, that and the victim culture of feminism, which doesn't help women at all. I want women to be empowered, not irrationally fearful of every guy.
medhue "he basically said what most of us on RUclips have been saying"
--most of us on RUclips? Where are your statistics?
johny radio
You can assume that when some1 writes a comment, it is their opinion. If I were stating facts, I'd supply references or imply that it's a fact.
Throughout history there have been female leaders, female warriors, female master crafters (the master shipwright in charge of the King's Yard at Depthford during the reign of Queen Elizabeth was a woman). We actually got worse about women's roles in society after the industrial revolution than we were before. There were assumptions about women's roles but the "women must be x" "men's work, women's work" bs didn't really come into play until men left the farms to work in the factories.
So, he wants to change the wording of his agenda so that it doesn't sound like an agenda.
How is treating people equally an agenda?
ozfan2themax "Equal" can mean anything these days. You're going to have to be more specific.
Shmuel Malkin People living their lives how they choose without being threatened, abused or simply subordinated for being who they are. It isn't about merely 'tolerating' people's choices, but respecting them and acknowledging them as equal in every way.
So now feminism is responsible for psychopaths raping young women through mind manipulation? That is exactly what feminism fights against, what on Earth are you on about? Feminists advocating child rape?
Feminism does not re-program men to do anything; that's your paranoia and ignorance talking.
Feminism fights for the rights of all people to live how they choose without disadvantage. This includes men. Feminists want men to pursue their own version of feminism and not the one that society dictates.
Is your masculinity so fragile that you're really threatened by that? I really don't see how what I've described in any way renders masculinity the problem; the whole concept is about freedom and mutual respect.
BTW, stop the persecutory/conspiracy talk; as if women have plotted to destroy men's lives. Why on Earth do you think that women want to destroy masculinity? Why would we want to do that?
Ultimately you are just afraid that the more feminist ideals permeate society, the less control you will have, and you're right, feminism doesn't give a damn about that.
well then....
"You don't have to hate someone to destroy them; you just have to NOT get it."
This is an incredible video! He knows the power words hold, and knows exactly how to use them. I'm thankful we have people like him in the world. Its the only way we can change and improve life for ALL humans. Bravo, Joss!!
"You either believe women are people or you don't. It's that simple."
I do not believe women are people. I believe they are rectangular polygons. I also believe that men are centipedes.
My goodness, this really _is_ the strongest non-prescription cough syrup money can buy.
Hey Joss, would you give up directing the next Avengers movie if a female wanted to direct it?
No? Didn't think so.
What the fuck? I don't think it would have anything to do with their gender......
FinalManaTrigger Well he actually isnt directing any more avengers movies.....
Cameron Stewart
Good. Maybe he can step back from directing PERIOD, so that a female can take his place. Social justice and all.
so he just spent ages on just how the word sounds and why he doesn't like it? this sounds like a guy that just loves the sound of his own voice. Im a man btw, and I recognise how severely marginalised and oppressed are around the world, not so much in the west as much anymore but in asia and the middle east it is horrendous. I think being a "feminist" however you want to say it, is an essential force for change and revolution that might have become a bit stale to some guys that enjoy the sound of their own voice and think others equally find their idiotic ramblings as interesting, but it is still essential to champion the cause of equal rights for women until it is won.
Yeah, but the audience liked him. You generally only say someone likes the sound of their own voice if they say nothing of benefit but he clearly had something enlightening to say and the crowd liked it. I also had a friend who was majoring in linguistics in college and taught me a little bit about that subject on a road trip, and I think this is a brilliant take on the word from an entymology perspective (if I got that word right)
okonh0wp doesnt seem to be adding anything of value to me
You can't have equality for one group. You can only have equality for all. That is where feminism shows its hypocrisy.
okonh0wp
He was doing what Bill Maher calls "making women nod". Telling them just what they want to hear.
Hey man, how does it feel to know you were completely right about Joss Whedon lmao
You can tell he's an excellent writer because he strikes a perfect balance between funny and thought provoking; which really is the most effective way to make a point.
Has no one here watched his video?
Joss Whedon is not saying genderist should replace feminist, quite the contrary, he's saying genderist should be the new racist. It should be racist for gender stuff; as if sexist wasn't enough. Which just shows how stupid this idiot really is.
Yo, newsflash Joss, gender is not limited to women. Gender is sex of the brain/mind, so that would include all kinds of genders beyond female (which is completely dumb to on top of it to make a racist term and apply it only to one of the potential "races") it would include transexuals, and if we take the model of most eastern cultures where mild forms who have no desire to transition are considered their own gender. If you wanted a term for "sexist toward women" it should be "womanist".
As long as women can be genderist towards men as well as vice-versa, I'm all for the word
If someone could give me a single advantage that feminism has to egalitarianism, i would pay them $10,000. Too bad it's impossible.
I say we take his advice and use the word Taliban, to mean equality... Or at least to replace feminism.
Feminism gets better funding, I guess.
You can ignore the problems of 50% of the population and still fake to be for equality.
ITS JUST A WORD AND THEY ALL MEAN THE SAME THING IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOU IDENTIFY UNDER BUT BEING OPPOSED TO A WORD THAT MEANS THE SAME THING MAKES YOU SEEM OPPOSED TO THE IDEA AS WELL. ITS ALL THE SAME
zoe mccrea usually someone would learn about what they were talking about before they made their views public. With you that is obviously not the case. Feminism is the same thing as egalitarianism????????? Wth are you on???? In that case would the word masculism have the same meaning as well? Wow, according to you masculism and feminism are the same thing. Who wouldve known? Smh. I suggest that in the future you actually think about what you are going to write before you release it for the whole world to see.
:O I didn't think Joss Whedon could be any cooler :')
👀
He is right, I don't get it. Knowing that 80% of suicides in the US are male, and seeing the lack of empathy for male victims of anything in feminist circles.. I cant think of feminism as anything more than "equality for women, fuck men." Here is a word for our beloved Joss Whedon. I am an Egalitarian and I believe all people deserve to be treated equally under the law. I see feminism as only "half as good" at protecting all of human kind from inequality. (again to clarify, I am not against women's rights. I am against forgetting that males are human too.)
I did not expect this to be nearly as funny and interesting as it is. Wonderful!
I love every minute of this but I'd change ONE thing.
"You either believe women are people or you don't. It's that simple."
I'd change it to..."You either believe people are people or you don't."
Because yes the number of men who completely dehumanize women is legion, but there are also women who completely objectify and dehumanize men as well.
At the very least, we're reduced to "liars and cheaters" and at the most, "destructive, rapey misogynists."
Other than that...lovely speech.
Your words fall on deaf ears; they don't care. I mean, you might be able to get someone on the far-right to admit that foreigners or ethnic minorities have unjust treatment too, but there'll always be some excuse and/or lip service. Trust me, these are merely feminists/Marxists wearing a new flag, but the core narrative and goal are the same.
Wholeheartedly agreed.
I felt like he was more of making fun of peoples reaction to the word "feminist" and then trying to find a syllable that wasn't as threatening. That's why he mentioned Katy Perry because, like so many other pop stars, they have the same belief that women should be equal to men, but using the word feminist is too much for them. I honestly believe we should just accept the word. The word feminist isn't pretty, but there is so much history behind it and there is so much forward it can bring. Though the genderist idea would make certain daft bastards shut up saying it doesn't include all genders. And yes people, there is a feminism that includes the fighting for equality of all sexes and genders.
I like the fact that he implies that if you're not a hard core feminist then you're some kind of extreme right winged MRA.
Equality IS just an idea. It IS an agenda. No one is born thinking all people are equal. No one is born thinking they're better or worse than others either.
No one is born thinking ANYTHING at all. It's ALL learned. If you want people to have equality, you have to TEACH it to them.
8:13-8:22 JOSS WHEDON ROCKS!!!
And how about any of the countless other nations around the world who are socialists and the countless positive stories of equality movements?
this was solved a long time ago: Humanist. Humanism. The Humanities.
So if I disagree with Whedon, am I now an anti-semite?
Logic FAIL, joss.
Feminism implies an ongoing state of recognizable persecution.That is still true in many places in the world today. But as it has been for all unprivileged classes, after a certain progression threshold, persecution complexes hinder rather than further, the fight for equality.
"Equality" or "standardization" treats humans like disposable materials. I thought we were supposed to value uniqueness. An equal world of equal things is simply depressing. A technocratic GULAG. An Animal farm where we are just "equally as enslaved". Don't let yourself be brainwashed by the illusion of equality.
There is no "real" equality, and life is not fair or equal. That's the way it is. Life is all about luck, genetic and circumstantial luck. Accept your fate , the sooner you do, the sooner you will feel at peace. The Taoist way to personal and mental freedom is to accept being unimportant, and to accept your misfortunes gracefully.
If the word "feminist" evokes negativity, and the problem is the "ist," in the word, perhaps we need a new suffix? Something that is actually positive? "FemGUITARSOLO," or "FemCOOLRANCHDORITOS?" Okay, what about, "FemSongThatWasStuckInYourHeadComesOnTheRadio?" I'd be all of those things.
I like the idea of genderist better than feminist because I don't specifically see how women are at a disadvantage. I mean I just watched Titanic and women made out pretty well there, plus dating's easier for women these days. It's much easier to just wait and be asked out than have to ask out women and don't have to deal with the stigma of being a "creep" if they're bad at connecting with members of the opposite sex. Women have the option to be housewives or get a job. I also have rarely seen any cases of women getting held back from being educated but that's just me or possibly my part of the country. In several countries throughout the world, I am aware that there is a big disconnect, however.
Movies and TV shows are not real life, and we cannot draw these kinds of conclusions about real life from movies and TV shows!!
the Titanic evacuation that doomed most of the men to their deaths was real
*****
never got around to seeing lord of the rings
*****
Yes, because a man gets to choose that he shouldn't be a considered a provider for children, even those children he did not want, or the children formed from the sperm that was used against his will, or the children that came from his adult abuser while he was a tween; oh, no, wait he goes to prison.
Of course, a man gets to choose to sign up for selective service... oh, no, he goes to prison.
A man gets to choose to work... oh, no, with VAWA and invisible gun in the room, that is a phone call to the police, he will go to prison if he doesn't do as the wife demands of him.
Yes, men get to choose so much.
Showbuisness is about giving the people what they want, art is about creating something that you believe in, and if other people like it, thats an added bonus. Joss is one of the truest artists in the world, everything he does is just full of passion. Seems like a great guy too.
Another problem with the word "feminism" is that it references women in particular and gender in general. I think the word "anti-genderism" would describe quite a few people, mostly some self-identifying feminists, better than "feminism" because it implies that we need to stop categorizing people as "women", "men", "transsexuals" etc and just start thinking of them as people (or categorize them to groups according to other criteria). Mentioning gender alone implies women and men and other such groups defined in terms of femininity and masculinity should be treated and thought of differently (I have yet to come up with any definition of "gender" that isn't roughly that).
The above problem still applies when it comes to self-identifying feminists (they're a heterogenous group) who wouldn't subscribe to that "anti-genderism" I described. Referencing women with the word "feminism" also says nothing about the treatment of men even though self-identifying feminists would almost always say they're against men getting worse treatment and see it as being a part of, or at least closely related their ideology.
I suspect that any word referring to such an emotionally charged topic would eventually become more or less derailed by common use. Words like "racism", "sexism" and "discrimination" are almost never used to mean something you yourself do or think. I've only ever met one person who self-identifies as a racist. Instead, people who're accused of racism/sexism/whatever just say something along the lines "I'm not racist/sexist/whatever but...". The word "discrimination" (and "sexism" and "racism") is used to mean any differential treatment of races/sexes/genders its user disapproves of, whereas the word "gender" is used to mean any differential treatment or ideas about men and women (and also sometimes other groups defined in terms of femininity and masculinity) you approve of. If you say women should stay in the kitchen, you're accused of sexism but if you say women should be referred to with the pronoun "she" you aren't. "Equality" is a vague word for similar reasons.
The criteria that sexism is when men/women get better treatment doesn't work if one insists on differentiating between the concepts of "gender" and "sexism". Example: If you asked the entire population whether "she" or "he" sounds better, it's very unlikely both options would be equally popular. You could also argue one of those words is easier for foreigners or children to learn to pronounce. Really, any differential treatment of different naturally occurring or socially constructed (those that exist because people think they do) groups necessitates the possibility of either group's treatment being better.
Just to be clear: I'm talking about the concepts and the words symbolizing them, not saying anything about whether I'm a feminist, anti-genderist or whatever. I'm not making just one central point, just expressing several of my ideas. Note that I'm a sociology major and that should give some idea of my thought patterns, the way I categorize things and my underlying assumptions.
He lost me around the time he said "you can't be born an -ist", then mentioned that being "Atheist" is something you have to learn. If "feminist" implies that equality is learned (and is, therefore, a bad word), then "atheist" implies that NOT believing in fairy tales is learned. Everyone is atheist when they're born. This day in age, with our modern understanding of science, you can't avoid atheism unless religion is thrust upon you by parents, community, or other outside sources.
Technically everyone is born agnostic, so you're wrong.
I think we can all agree that Snyder is more of a feminist then Whedon will ever be.
"You don't need to hate someone to destroy them... you just need to not get it." I really liked that line.
It is so pathetic to see a 'man' abase himself and apologize for his masculinity. I am sure the misandrists love him. He makes a fine 'house slave'.
Actually a lot of feminists don't like him.
I saw no abasement here, not apology.
Misandry ? I am a man and you need to STFU ! women and LGBT are far more oppressed in general than men are !
Would you rather want him to go crazy killing machine overfed on testosterone ?
All you misogynistic and homophobic MRAs always think that if a man is being understanding of issues other than the ones that concern his beer , chic and money , then he's being abasing himself and apologizing for his masculinity !
shame on MRA and this is coming from a guy
he believes in equality, it is in the title of the viedo. it is about men and woman standing on the same level, not men being dragged down for past sins or however you would put it.
MMODoubter I agree Joss is such a Mark for Feminism
Tears in my eyes. Thank you Joss Whedon.
The man that basically fired the 1st salvo in reigniting the whole DC vs MARVEL comicbook civil war.Well spoken Mr. Whedon. Now we can see where his brilliance and creativity came from for Buffy,Angel,Doll House and AVENGERS,right??
I honestly feel like everyone should watch this video
Isn't "SEXIST" exactly the word he's looking for? I mean everybody is already using that and it works just fine.
I'd rather have a better word for someone who supports equal rights. Because I'm certainly not gonna call myself a feminist. The problem of that word is the "fem" part. It seems to only be about women.
Anyway, nothing against Joss Whedon. I know he means well and I love his work.
*****
Haha, okay thanks. Although that almost sounds like a political party, doesen't it.
Lots of random hate in the comments, but this talk was so quality. Enjoying the use of a negatively connotated #genderist to align with #racist - it's time to move beyond with #feminism with its stereotypes and white focus.
and cut to 2021
Does Joss think there is sexism (sorry 'genderism') against men or...?
Gee, It would seem that all hardcore feminists would be genderists, pushing the misandry wrapped in all the layers.
I wish he had talked about gynocentrisum when discussing these issues, and I disagree about the 'badness from the past' and if you look at each example you will find how that policy or effect was balanced out with others. What he said in talk seem to concede the concept of Patriarchy... anytime you here someone spouting it, let that be a red flag.
Patriarchy is simply that the male is the leader and decision maker, historically societies have generally been organised along patriarchal lines due to the male being the default provider and protector, that the society required to survive. The male being the representative of the family group, he was also deemed responsible for the family group and the protection and running of the society generally. Women's power was most often enacted by proxy through the male spouse or father.
Feminism's version is that *"the Patriarchy™"* was one of oppression of women as individuals, even though society functioned from the perspective of the family group. Just as females held little responsibility, males could not absolve themselves of that responsibility without leaving the society for the life of a hermit.
We no longer live in a patriarchy, yet those old responsibilities still remain.
I invite you to look into feminist literature, it's how they define it. If you disagree with there definition, you are not a feminist *to the feminists.*
But you can call yourself whatever you want, just in your own isolation it will have meaning, or you the definition defined by those very people.
See how words, sentences, and ideas can actually start to have meaning if we use similar definitions.
Steve2Work
"What he said in talk seem to concede the concept of Patriarchy... anytime you here someone spouting it, let that be a red flag."
I am well versed in the way the feminists claim "The Patriarchy™" it's why I used the little trademark symbol.
The problem happens is when people who see that our society essentially came from patriarchal roots, confuse that concept with the dogmatic version feminists use.
A patriarchy: The social science version with many variants which has an opposite version called matriarchy, patriarchy was common due to the men being the ones who would defend the tribe and do the majority of dangerous tasks, risk/reward payouts with more responsibility boosting social status.
"The Patriarchy™" The feminist version in which all men oppress all women for the benefit of men. We do see this in some (very few) small (primitive) tribal groups where the men basically do nothing but tell the women what to do.
You didn't distinguish between the two, the use of a or the does this.
Thanks for definition.
What people forget is that in a stable society, men may have ruled but they ruled for the benefit of women and families. Males with issues were cannon fodder, or if there were too many unattached males it was a reason for war...
And for many men going to war meant a chance at procreation he may never have had, or will have. A little bit off topic from video.
Steve2Work
Thank you for being civil in your discussion. It's incredibly rare to see.
The word "feminist" is a problem no feminist wants to address. More power to you Joss.
Boy, did this comment age like cat piss. I never trusted that feminism talk he kept on pandering to. It’s a shame too, because I really liked his shows
Something important some people are missing: when he said "genderist" implies something that's past, that's behind us, he did not mean that genderism (or sexism) no longer exists! He was not saying that women now have equality with men.
He was saying, rather, that the word "genderism" is useful, because it is a negative, it describes something that we SHOULD put behind us. He goes on to say "the fight is not over", so obviously he acknowledges that we do not yet have equality.
But, the way he put it ("something that's behind us") DOES give the impression at first that sexism is behind us (if you don't listen to and think about the whole speech).
That's one of the several weaknesses in this speech.
Actually, he DOES say we are past racism and sexism. That totally false. He should educate himself about what's happening to people in America's black ghettos. He should educate himself about abuse of women around the world.
***** I can't bear to watch it again, else i'd give you the timing when he says, unequivocally, "we are past sexism" (in so many words). i'm pretty sure, because I went back and checked.
*****
Racism has just taken a new form, often called the New Racism. These new racists consider themselves color blind. By not "seeing" the color, discrimination becomes random even though the discriminated against are all of the same color.
These new racists, like Ron Paul, are far more dangerous than the crazy old-school racists.
Not Crazy"By not "seeing" the color, discrimination becomes random even though the discriminated against are all of the same color."
if they don't see color, and the discrimination is random, how are the victims all the same color?
Im for womens rights but im not a feminist because that obliges you to subscribe to unfalsifiable theories about patriarchy, rape culture etc
If you are all for equality, then please upload the proper English closed caption. The automatic closed caption simply wouldn't do for all people with English as second language!
***** I believe it goes without saying that proper English closed caption would go long way on improving accessibility for everyone. Many people who have English as second language are still learning, so the written words are usually learned first (who say all of these people live in North America?). The automatic language translating tool also need a clean closed caption for better translating result for all people in the world. And not to mention all people who are Deaf and hard of hearing who have to rely exclusively on closed caption to get across language barrier!
"You don't have to hate something to destroy it, you just have to not get it."
Does this mean that it is some people's goals to "not get" Christianity? If all people are equal, this is a valid issue.
I would submit that if more people wanted to "get" what Christianity REALLY teaches, it is not as "evil" as society would have you think.
Now we know why he doesn't have much hair left..it is because his creativity is growing from with in his brain outward and I think I should thank him for it.
If Joss doesn't hand over the Avengers franchise to a woman to direct... and back her 100% at the expense of his career reputation then he and everything he stands for is utter contempt for modern feminism.
God's, I wanna buy this man a drink.
All men are 'born' equal. That's the keyword. But it's up to them, whether they become a worthy human or not.
I don't buy any of his reasons for there being a problem with 'feminist'. We don't need his new term.
Joss...THANK YOU, maybe now Anita Sarkeesian will get the picture (she is a fan of Joss Whedon)
In case you hadn't noticed; Joss Whedon entirely agrees with Anita Sarkeesian, and the fact you "don't get it", that is feminists, and Anita's brand of bullshit, makes you a genderist, aka a sexist, aka a misogynist, aka "a cave-dwelling, backward, hateful neanderthal" or whatever he said exactly was too long of a hash tag.
Sjeez; how people on both sides can so completely miss what is an entire lecture on the concept I don't get; did you just hear what you wanted to hear, or did you even bother to watch the video and just reported on what other people wanted hear and claimed Joss said?
I hate it that at 6:49 someone yells "wrong!" (or did I not hear correctly?). It true, that people often don't know much about the so called slavery in ancient Egypt, but come on, this guy is doing such a good job, don't yell "wrong".. instead, yell "right!" throughout the rest of the 14 minutes
I largely agree with Joss Whedon here, but I think there was a very strong point he could have made, but didn't. It was a pity, because he had the perfect 'in' into the point too.
The reason someone like Katie Perry says she's not a feminist is because the word has two meanings, and one of them is wrapped up with a movement and ideology. Feminist doesn't just mean 'someone who wants women's rights', it also means 'someone who is part of the movement of feminism'. And only the most blinkered person would claim that feminism has always been a banner for good thing. Like any movement, there have been highs and lows. For many people the lows are what they associate with the movement, and don't want to be part of it. And I think that is fair enough.
The great thing about 'genderist' (although I personally think sexist is a perfectly fine word to use) is that it *has* no movement to confuse the issue with. If someone's sexist, then it's crystal clear what that means: They treat the two sexes differently.
That's it.
Oh, as an aside, I did find it funny that Joss chose a word with the -ist suffix! :p I guess it's because the word is a pejorative that it works.
Still waiting on Joss Whedon to make a "GOOD ASIAN CHARACTER" or who isn't a fringe character.Almost thirty year career and the best he can do is green light Ming-Na's Melinda May who by no fault of her own is only just passable.
Hack Whedon
... He didn't actually say anything.
There is a highly significant, yet unstated, implication of Joss' talk-- it ultimately points toward the elimination of gender completely.
Genderism semantically includes recognizing, even acknowledging someone's gender at all, even in a non-malevolent way. Joss is saying "be gender blind." That is, there's no way to tell whether it means "don't mistreat someone because of their gender", or "don't even notice someone's gender", unless you look it up in a dictionary, and different dictionaries will have different definitions, and people will start thinking it means "don't even notice someone's gender".
I don't know, I like having genders. It's fun. Personally, I enjoy the differences between men and women. I also think western Europeans do a better job than Americans at being comfortable in their genders. But I digress.
But i do think, mentally, the more evolved people are, the more in-touch they will be with their male and female selves. It's just a more complete, more powerful way to be.
It's a step in the right direction, it really is. Joss deserves a hand for saying this. I don't want to be disappointed, because this is a big thing that I should be grateful for. But I did notice how at the end of his speech, he only mentioned the hardships of women.
Have some of these people commenting below even watched the video? Or have you just come here to throw the word feminist at the situation and hate? The video explains exactly what Joss's viewpoint is - woman are people. And if you disagree with Joss Whedon on women, you disagree with statement and quite simply you are a fool.
+TheSimWizard You are an idiot. It is perfectly okay for people to disagree with what he's saying; without hating women.
+TheSimWizard You are an idiot. It is perfectly okay for people to disagree with what he's saying; without hating women.
+TheSimWizard Equality is impossible. Women has more rights by nature. Every mother knows the children are her own. But father does not. It makes father a hostage by nature - he must believe to his wife. Wife can said "I don't like this man anymore, besides his not a father" - socium on her side. It always there. So, mr. Widon and everyone, do you want make a women more people then a men? It's simple...
I personally love Joss Whedon's comic book fantasy women especially the large number of hysterically funny evil vampires and demons from the netherworld who technically are not really people since they consider people food. His semantic hair splitting about his problems with the word Feminist was basically just an attempt at word magic.
I have officially added "genderist" to my repertoire.
Well, there was nothing that suggested Whedon paid women less than men. Of course, I don’t *think* Joss Whedon signed anyone’s checks.
We should all agree by now, just take all of the awards and give them to Joss Whedon.
Better yet,
JOSS WHEDON FOR PRESIDENT.
Not until they give us more Firefly :p
Can someone reiterate what was wrong with the existing word "sexist" or "sexism" compared to "genderist" and "genderism"?
Sounded like he was just trying to be funny. Also, sex is often seen as biological and gender is social, or so they say.
OSlatraigh
Body versus mind, actually.
But the way Joss talked genderist would still be about the bodily; so he would just create a second word for sexist.
Oh, Sensitive Joss Whedon.
And i think sexism is a good word, a bit underrated actually... Its quite common among both men and woman...
Joss should do standup. Seriously!
I'll never understand sexism, why hold yourself back, your own people, your own family. Must have to be a really sad insecure person to be like that
i don't understand what people's issue is with feminism is on youtube? like people are talking like this stuff is completely made up?
The universe as we know it is made up of several billion parallel subjective realities most of which are fairly similar but none exactly identical. Feminism is a religion that wants to be made into a state religion imposed on everybody else by Orwellian thought police micromanaging everybody else's lives to rationalize taking money and jobs away from one group and giving them to another group. As Xander's wife Anya might say it's like Communism,
A writer should understand that "fem" doesn't mean "men and women" or equality.
Of course he skips that and goes right to "ist". A writer that skips the root of a word and goes straight to the end. That's an immediate indicator that he's not being intellectually honest.
Men and women are not equal. They are not the same. And that is a wonderful thing. There are things that each is inherently better at than the other. And again, that is something to be celebrated. And frankly, if you were to ask me, I'd say overall that women are better human beings than us men are. Look at all the horrible things that people do in the world going back to the dawn of our species. The overwhelming majority of these are perpetrated by men.
Anyway, my point is that we should stop trying to perpetrate this fallacy on modern culture that the sexes are the same. They aren't and never will be. Celebrate the differences. The focus needs to be around the idea that, in the eyes of government and the law, that both sexes are treated equally. Institutional discrimination is the problem--focus on that. But do it in a way that still lets women be women and men to be men and not create this hybrid gender that makes no distinctions between the two.
I love your position that ALL human beings are equal and, even as a proud feminist, I follow your logic. Building on your view that people who don't believe women are equal are like "the plague" we're certainly not yet done with working towards gender and racial equality everywhere in the world.
I understand what Whedon is saying and I agree to a certain extent. In fact if he had not gone on a tangent about "-ists," I'd define him as a humanist. However, "feminist" denotes an understanding of history that despite everyone being born with equal rights, these rights were taken away from women. I agree with him in that one is born without being able to distinguish God or the absence of God, the same as we cannot distinguish colour differences in skin, but we can begin to distinguish these things once we learn about history, and this is where feminism is very different from religion. I acknowledge that each human is born with equal rights but once we delve into history we can see these rights were taken away. Feminism was a movement to counteract this embedded discrimination and to take that word away is to, in my eyes, forget the history of feminism.
This guy has a beard to show that he is still a man and i bet he shaves his head to pretend his is bald aswell, and I have no further comments cuz its worthless is the basic "we good they just evil" kind of speech that doesnt try to understand the reason of anything.
One of the best speeches I've ever heard. I've been sharing this, and others have done the same. I will continue to be inspired by this, and I will try to make a change. It's great when something like this comes from someone who seems like a genuinely good person. Genderist will be going into my vocabulary, including on a confrontational basis.
Yeah, Whedon totally loves women. Except that time he made Charisma Carpenter's life hell after she got pregnant. He totally loves women though.
….. and this comment is from before all the douchey shit came out into the open. Wow.
If anyone's going to hang a label on me, try "earthling".
Of course, you can call me anything you like, but please don't call me late for supper!
I can honestly say that this has influenced my views on the word "feminist" and all for the better; I do need to try to start using the term "genderist" as well now.
Louie CK needs to change up his jokes. I'm all for the feminist stuff, but he needs make jokes about other things.
3 minutes in and I still have no clue what Joss is saying. He's not as good as he thinks he is with words.
The words we have for misogyny and feminism are just fine (though Whedon's nature vs. nurture argument against "feminist" is compelling). Why is no-one asking why there isn't a "feminism" equivalent for race? "Egalitarian" is way too non-specific for such a task so surely it's about time someone thought of one.
I'm not a genderist!