Dragons of ice and fire : an unnatural history?
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- The Targaryen dynasty and empire of Old Valyria were famous for their dragons. But could an already blood-soaked past have a darker history that will lead any surviving dragon to a grim future?
Patreon : / unnaturalhistorychannel
Caraxes being bred to enter relatively narrow passages like mines and fortresses isn't far off from how dachshunds came to be, their short legs and elongated bodies being used to weed weasels out of their dens. It's pretty funny to me how he's basically a draconic dachshund, then.
Sausage dog Caraxes, no wonder he's so popular.
The mental images you've created for me 😨🤯😆
An abomination of a snekish dragon
And apropiatly dachshunds are one of the most agressive dog breeds too so it checks out
@@unnaturalhistorychannel Pardon me, but is there a chance of you doing a vid on the DreamWorks Dragons? Or would I have to bully you with money on Patreon?
Edit: Was that first like a confirmation, or just some rando agreeing with me?
GOT Dragons becoming glorified domestic pets that gradually degrade/mutate over time due to inbreeding is a very unique take and one of my favorite interpretations of dragons in fiction.
It dose sound like something that would happen in real life. Which is fitting, considering GOT is supposed to be grounded/realistic fantasy
Didnt dragons come from were Blood magic. Soy not strange that they mite of been fucked from the start
you must be new here. this guy made me feel bad for deviljho
It's a depresengly realistic way to go out
@@nicolaezenoaga9756 no realistically humans would never evolve in a world with these, we would simply die out
I love how the death of Lucerys was changed from a deliberate act on Aemond's part to essentially both dragons acting out like ... well, wild animals. It shows that even though the Valyrians and the Targaryans have some sort of connection with the dragons, they're still extremely powerful and dangerous animals who will lash out when they feel threatened. Of course giving them to a bunch of teenagers was going to result with somebody getting killed, even if they didn't mean to.
"The idea that we control the dragons is an illusion." - King Viserys Targaryan
I loved that but they probably did it beacuse for some reason the writters are trying to make a Good/Bad history, portraying the Greens as "goods" while the Blacks are "the Bad guys" killing the most important thing in ASOIAF world, no one is a hero or a villian, they are just persons who took good or bad decitions (sorry for misspeling, english is not my first lenguaje)
the dragons acted that way because they felt their riders agitated, imagine yourself being a tiny dragon being chased by an old bigger dragon
@@MonskyTrash That's not the impression that I got from the show. The "Greens" were definitely the ones portrayed far more as the bad guys (only Queen Alicent has any degree of morality to her actions, while her father, Otto Hightower, is such a blatant POS that I want somebody to just kill him... like, right now! lol).
Rhaenyra Targaeryan, on the other hand, is continually pushed as a sympathetic tyrant at every possible turn, especially in episode 10 of the series. It's only at the end, when she loses her son to Vhaegar's jaws, that she finally seems to "snap" inside, and that will probably turn her into a supremely wicked woman, as vengeance now becomes her motivation, instead of ruling the Seven Kingdoms peacefully.
They also lacked the control daemon had
@@MonskyTrash Huh? I'd say its the other way around. Rhaenyra is clearly the protagnist and when she does stuff its triumphant. The Greens are the villains of the show, when they do stuff ominous music plays. The only "triumphant" moment for the Greens is Aemond riding Vhagar.
The dragon aggression thing is actually something that all dragons have or at least most of them. It mentions at one point in the books that when using a whip to control a dragon that, unlike horses, where when you use the whip. The horse goes in the other direction. While dragons always turn towards the whip. That a dragons first instinct is always violence. They don't flee the whip they try and attack it.
That is a super cool concept. I wonder what other animals react that way. I immidiently think about crocodiles because when you hit them with a stick they also open their mouths and come towards where they are hit.
@@pain002 abused animals often do chose attack as their first line of defense
@@pain002 essentially every predator with fear inhibition. For example, because wolf dogs inherit the wolf’s more independent and more fear resistant nature, disciplining them is significantly more dangerous and has to be done carefully. You can hit a dog and it could still care for you, but you hit a wolf dog and you’d be fortunate to get a second hit in.
@arianewinter4266 that's strangers. But once the strangers establishes the same abuse the abused animal either doubles down or relents.
@thecod2345
Fear inhibition is very situational.
But you're correct overall.
Huskies and herding breeds come to mind in particular as dogs too dumb to realise they are in danger, too smart to care.
Man, Imagine if they had Caraxes go into the tunnels like a ferret, that shit must be terrifying, seeing a dragon snaking its way to you
maybe they'll do it in season 2 at Harrenhall. won't that eb something.
@@HisameArtworkwell….they definitely conquered Harrenhall. It was a fierce battle 😂
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 apparently so
I think that it's important to point out that Balerion, often used as the benchmark of a dragon's upper age limit, sustained grievous injuries during its return to Valeria that "never fully healed". It was directly following these wounds that Balerion became sluggish and hard to rouse. It is no stretch to conclude that these crippling wounds shortened the beast's lifespan, especially when considering that the Cannibal is reported to have been active over a century before Aegons conquest.
Do we actually know when dragons die of old age? we know that they get smaller and weaker the longer they are stuck in a cage, but we haven't seen a good cause for old age, which I could be missing here.
@@williamking1081 the only answers i can find is something the showrunners said, as they grow bigger they become less able to sustain their weight until they collapse under it like a beached whale
@@williamking1081 they must have an upper limit, since as they age they get bigger and slower and heavier which makes their flying harder and more strenuous, these all seem to indicate that dragon do indeed age as we do, as in they get weaker and more feeble as they age, they just have much greater lifespans than we do. Going by Balerion’s age and the fact that he sustained very deep wounds later in life, we can reasonably assume that a dragon can probably live perhaps half a century longer than Balerion did.
Not to mention that his rider at the time (forgot her name) came back infested with parasites that burned her from the inside like they were meant to be in a hotter enviroment (a dragon) so likely Balerion was infected with them too and they just ate away at his life slowly until he died
I think it's safe to say Dany's dragons are not THAT old, they are actually the three eggs that Dreamfyre had. The former lover of Rhaena, the first rider of Dreamfyre, stole the three eggs and sold them to the Braavosi, and apparently they never hatched and turned into stone, that's why the dragon eggs are in Essos, and are specifically three. Also the show hints at this because Dreamfyre is the only dragon that is IDENTICAL to Dany's three dragons
Wasn't dreamfyre the dragon in the pit that almost roasted Aemond after he got a pig?
@@pain002 yes! That's Dreamfyre, Helaena's dragon
Seasmoke looks awfully similar to them too though. Especially his horn positioning
I always wondered how the hell those dragon eggs got to braavos lol
we dont know who laid Daenerys ' eggs
they may be the eggs the farman sold in essos to get sunchaser
Slight correction about dragon ancestry. The Targaryens brought a number of eggs to Westeros, so the subsequent dragons aren't descended exclusively from their three.
Just what I was thinking. Dragon eggs can stay dormant for centuries. And they would without a doubt posses a few fancy eggs. Balerion is the only og dragon (out of 5)to survive the century of blood. Could be that other 4 were smaller ones, more suitable for urban living. As they would be easier to keep in stables and les expensive to feed on a daily basis.
@@amirhad6594 also interesting note is that there appear to be even more eggs floating around the world of ice and fire. It is very heavily implied that Euron paid the faceless men with a very very precious gift from old Valyria. Very likely a dragon egg. So Dany might not be the only person who can bring dragons back from stone
@@pain002 nah, only varlyrians have been able to hatch them as far as we know. Some random guy wouldn’t be able to hatch an egg lol
@@avabeth2535 ancient blood rituals were used with dragon sorcery and creation way before the valyrians
I was wondering how long eggs can lay dormant for
I wouldnt be surprised if George took inbreeding depressions into account when writing about the death of the dragons. George referances the need to avoid inbreeding depressions with the Wildlings in a Storm of Swords and their behavior of "stealing" women. Plus, he also talks about it in some of his sci-fi stories like the "Armageddon Rag", "Dark, Dark, Were the Tunnels", "Dying of the Light", and "In the House of the Worm". It's actually one of the more common ideas he covers in his stories
I've always theoriesed that the Valaryian Dragons have never been "natural" and that they were genetically engineered monster made through blood magic from splicing together Fire Wyrms and Wyverns and made to look like the extinct dragons of the Empire of the Dawn and Asshai by the Shadow.
Cool theory!
Your not the only one to Theories this unnatural origin for (at least) the valeryan dragons
Remember
They are fire made into flesh
This in an actual in universe theroy. Septon Barth, a character mentioned in 'Fire & Blood', wrote a book titled Dragons: Their Unnatural History
Dragons are a sexual. No inbreeding lol
The fact that caraxes killed vhagar deserves mad respect, daemon and caraxes were the only reason that the greens didn't easily win
When I saw Caraxes, his design made me think of water dragons whose serpentine like bodies were specialized for swimming, diving and agile flight.
So in terns of dragon biology, something that was presented in the Animal Planet Dragons documentary was that dragon "flight bladders" stored hydrogen and methane from the food they ate and it simultaneously lightened them up enough to fly despite being so massive and, coupled with platinum that they chewed up, could be used as a fuel store to breathe fire from. What's your take on this?
A nice touch for sure, but I don't think such a large animal would be able to store enough of either gas to make a significant difference to its flight cost. Not without being a lot more rotund at least!
@@unnaturalhistorychannel Well, they do say that the gases were coupled with a super light skeleton to help it fly. Plus, it provided a caveat in the more gas they use to breathe fire, the more sluggish they become until they are grounded
@@unnaturalhistorychannel The illustrations in the Flight book do portray them as distinctly swollen looking, with a body shape akin to a stretched zeppelin that's had implausibly small wings, head, and tail attached. They're also described as having skeletons that derive their strength from their structure (lots of interlocking hexagonal cells with voids inside them IIRC) rather than density, and definitely aren't capable of flying just through physical effort. They have to be storing enough hydrogen to achieve near-neutral "buoyancy" in the air or they can't take off, and expending too much of it (by breathing fire, for ex) in flight will result in a fatal crash. They also handle very poorly in high winds and avoid flying in bad conditions if at all possible, landing and deflating themselves as much as possible to avoid being thrown around like, well, a grounded biological blimp. Thunderstorms also add the risk of a lightning strike, which usually detonates any hydrogen on board with lethal (and spectacular) results.
It's an interesting book with some real thought behind it, although the chemistry in parts of it is exceedingly dubious.
So… basically they stay afloat by using fart sacks ?
@@avabeth2535 ........I mean if you're just gonna say it lmao
The Valyrians were apparently shepards before they were dragon riders. Perhaps while most dragons scrounged the coasts in search of prey, the volcanic Valyria attracted dragons both for breeding and the livestock there. They would have access to hatchlings to experiment with overtime.
Also I like the idea that this inevitable decline due to excessive inbreeding and excess extravagance also led to the doom of Valyria. Maybe fire magic was being enhanced so much it became unstable and caused the eruptions. Something exaggerated to such an extreme it becomes a detriment, like with problems in purebred dogs
you wrote nonsense
@@ВелиалВинчестер this is a video about hypothetical fantasy lizard ecology, I assume you came for some nonsense
The land around volcanoes is suuuuper fertile too, generally the most healthy wild animals like deer and such live at the base of volcanoes, because the foliage has extra nutrients in it from the rich ass soil. So aside from the proximity to where they like to lay eggs and hang out, it'd make sense for dragons to be especially into eating those particular animals- they probably tasted the best and would've provided the dragons more nutritious meals than normal as well!
Also building off your last thing abt the magic becoming unstable; maybe inbreeding also results in decreased innate magic in the dragons over generations too, thatd make sense i think as a consequence of inbreeding if magic was a thing. And then since sorcerers seemingly get their mojo from proximity to dragons, the dragons losing their magic could be the thing that made the valyrian's magic become unstable enough for ze Doom!
@@ВелиалВинчестер lol it’s fiction… it’s nonsense by default.
@user-uf9lz5wz4n please elaborate
In the books it was described there were bones of Giants in northern Essos that were at least 3 times the size of the living Giants in the story, it makes me wonder if Giants (And possibly even Mammoths) were in an evolutionary arms race with the ancient Dragons until the humans showed up.
What is the level of intelligence that the giants in the GOT poses?
@@nicolaezenoaga9756 They're pretty intelligent, they can talk & communicate with humans but they speak mostly in the old tongue. Though it is hinted they can understand more of the common languages than they let on.
@@cro-magnoncarol4017 Thank you.
ancient dragons? I thought thier where only fire worms and the wyverns? which then where breed to gather with blood magic to create the first dragon.
@@williamking1081 I'm pretty sure that's as stated by the author "hearsay", remember he says tales from ancient times & or far away lands can be exaggerated in the records.
Surprised it wasn’t brought up how inconvenient it would be to maintain a large domestic dragon let alone an entire flock of them, I mean the amount of meat required to keep vhagar or balerion alive and healthy for at least a century seems staggering (assuming that the dragon handlers were feeding them just other domesticated animals and possibly prisoners)
Didn't want to rehash too much from LotR and other videos! But...a lot. Though it seems at least some owners let them hunt for themselves. Sheepstealer was fed a large sheep each day too for what it's worth, and some artwork shows them giving numerous slaughtered animals.
@@unnaturalhistorychannel someone calculated that a Tyrannosaurus rex would realistically only need half a grown person a day to survive. These big predators don't need as much food as we may think. Predators like snakes or sharks can go months without food
something to be considered is the feast-fast cycle of large predator feeding. A predator makes a kill and gorges- eating as much as its body can hold. It then fasts for several days while it digests. This has actually proven to be a critical cycle in some animals like Cheetah. For centuries humans have struggled to breed cheetahs (unfortunately why the Egyptians never fully domesticated them) because they were typically fed daily, which is unnatural for them, and resulted in infertility and some becoming overweight.
Now that I type it out, if the dragons also needed a feast-fast cycle, that would help explain infertility
@@Kehy_ThisNameWasAlreadyTaken fascinating, didn't know that about cheetas.
I wonder if certain subspecies of humans needed that and it wasn't just the mammoths dieng that killed them but also agriculture? and what mixed breeds we have now example caucasians/indo-europeans having nenderthal are the ones that were tolerant to gluten and milk so win win "hybrid vigor"?
would be an interesting addition to religious fasting too.
and we do have inuits and others that can survive on exclusivist diets of seals and such.
I'm part tatar (mongol type, muslims) and I've always loved meat and thought I didn't have teeth like in the office pictures but didn't give it much thought until I lived in the USA for a while and my very scandinavian looking dentist commented on my teeth being weirdly shaped and sharp. My molars and premolars are not flat and square like in the pictures, they are more dog shaped.
I can't eat breakfast and I can reach night time and not be hungry. If I don't eat everyday I do get dizzy but if I consume sugar I'm fine. Salads and other very fibrous plants give me indigestion, so I eat tomato salads and eat melons and fruit. Yogurt is great, but milk must be very fresh or else.
I always assumed Dany's three dragons in the main series where wild-types or close to, free from human influence as their eggs had been dormant for eons, and only hatched thanks to Dany basically doing a fire blood magical ritual and sacrificing three lives on the pyre for the three eggs, Drogo, His Horse and The Witch.
Nice theory, but it is almost confirmed that Dany's 3 eggs were Dreamfyre's and they are 200-250 years old when Dany gets them.
@@thedoomofvalyria6466 dreamfyre looked pretty healthy. The 6 seconds we got to see her in a dark pit
Just want to add on. You think a horse can pay the life for a dragon? 2 humans, but a horse is fine for the 3rd? Try again.
Danny was the 3rd sacrifice. She died in that pyre and was reanimated.
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 In any other case I would be delighted to hear more about this idea because yes it does make sense. But you are unnecessarily rude. Try being a little kinder to people if you want to open a dialogue.
Man, I really wish George would approve some team of creature creators or something to work on a book about the current and prehistoric fauna of the Song of Ice and Fire world, because so far we've seen magical and carnivorous creatures, but carnivores are meant to feed on herbivores and I feel that's what his bestiary is missing, amazing herbivorous creatures, they could take inspiration from so many dinosaurs and the mega-beasts of the Cenozoic era, they could even take inspiration from the Carboniferous and Permian-Triassic beasts!!!!!! Just imagine the possibilities!
That would be cool. The only prominent big herbivorous fauna in Song of Ice and Fire/GOT are Mammoths, and those aren't very common south of the wall.
@@danykilson4950 Exactly! The Fauna is often ignored in fantasy books but it souldn't be
Gigantic hell pigs would probably be the stuff of nightmares, then you see a gigant sloth casually makeing a cave . Gigant terror -ist- birds would make for an amazeing mount
I’d kill for a sauropod-inspired beastie in ASOIAF
that would demystify things and he likes all the mystery so I doubt he'll ever do it, but maybe after he passes away 20 years from now, after finishing a dream of spring ...his lovely wife will publish all his notes and we'll get to see many answers to our questions.
The words wild and feral are often used synonymously with each other, so that could be why the three untamed dragons are called wild. There is also a theory that dragons are crossbreed between wyverns and firewyrms. This could be plausible, as the valyrians were known to use sorcery to created animal/human hybrids. It may also be possible that some of the animals in sothoryos were made by valyerians.
It has been said or suggested in the books that the Dragons themselves are a sort of genetic hybrid between the Fire Wyrms and Wyverns
my personal theory is that today's dragons are only "Jurassic Park" version of real dragons, i think a creature like dragons existed in the past but they were extinct(since there is legends about the first people who ride dragons were the shadow people), then the valyrians tried to recreate them using their close cousins like fire wyrms and wyverns(since dragons have the characteristic of both, fire wyrm's size and fire abilities, and wyvern's format and flying ability)
This is probably your most unexpected videos yet, you weren’t kidding when you said it was surprise. I must say this one has me extremely hyped to see for breakfast.
Edit.) This is perhaps one of your best videos yet, I Iearned far more than I even imagined about the world of ice and fire. I am definitely sharing this whenever I can and as an aspiring writer you’re right I do feel inspired by Cerax’s design.
Hahaha! It's night time in my country!
Your dp is that guy from made in abyss right? It would be really cool if he possibly did a Made in abyss ecology video.
@@gambitaku6179 Uhhh! That's a really good idea.
The Targaryens left Valyria with 5 dragons. (Including Balerion.)
The 4 unnamed dragons died leaving only Balerion. Meraxes and Vhagar hatched on dragonstone leaving only 3 dragons before the conquest.
Meraxes died leaving only Balerion and Vhagar to breed.
I'm assuming they were able to come with eggs. If the culture was any similar they probably had a stash of eggs.
Martin may not be intrested in them for his story but he atleast gave intresing lore and Grounded them in science.
Well it dose make them more relatable and I would say more interesting.
He also kinda had to considering the setting.
Amazing video, this is one I've been anticipating the most, seeing biological principles used to analyze dragons. I think it is worth noting that Valyrian-descended people seem to be somewhat different from baseline humans, as Daenarys notes she has never been sick in her life, even when walking through a crowd of plague-ridden refugees, where she notes that her brother Viserys claimed that all Targaryens are immune from the sicknesses of "mortal men", and this is despite the family's INTENSE inbreeding. With that in mind, the fact that Sunfyre suffered infection must mean his immune system was even more compromised than I think the video realizes.
Funnily enough, some human communities are actually suggested to deliberately practice inbreeding to share resistance against certain, prevalent, localised pathogens (albeit at the cost of making them more vulnerable to others). Maybe that's what Old Valryia started as and they then just went full sweet home alabama.
Donse Sunfyre have Valyrian blood or something?
@@unnaturalhistorychannel That is an interesting thought. Valyria before the Doom had a maritime empire with connections in Sothoryos, a land infamous for its diseases, and there seems to have been what we'd call a bioweapon laboratory just off the coast. Perhaps the Valyrians developed their unmatched immune system because they intended to do more work in these hazardous environments before the Doom, or something.
I do have one quick question for you if you'd indulge me. You mention in the video that the dragon's high natural body temperature would protect them against at least some pathogens. Could the same be true for Targaryens? They are noted to have higher body temperatures than other people, with Dany famously preferring bathing temperatures that others would find unpleasant. I wonder if there is a connection between these higher body temperatures and susceptibility to disease.
@@nicolaezenoaga9756 Martin is vague with the details, but it is quite possible. "The blood of the dragon" may not just be a family saying for the Targaryens. I'd direct you to Preston Jacob's channel on YT if you want the whole story, but essentially Martin is a sci-fi author and has put a lot of focus on genetics in his works. At one point, he contemplated making the setting a sci-fi one as opposed to traditional fantasy. The fan theory is that dragons are a species that has been heavily genetically modified from their original form, the firewyrm, which tunneled in the volcanoes of Valyria before the Doom. Or another theory that dragons actually originate in the Great Empire of the Dawn, which predated Valyria by centuries if not millennia. So, long story short, there is speculation that Valyrians and dragons are literally related.
@@daniell1483 Thank you! That sounds very interesting indeed!
8:06 this is something I've seen portrayed in a game before. In "golden treasure, great green" you play as a species known as draak (though they're actually wyverns). You are a wild animal, lacking human explanation for things. At some point in adult life you can encounter a house guarded by dogs. You can converse with them which will show how odd they behave compared to wild animals. Believing their gods will protect them from harm. They guard the house fiercely, even against something that would surely cause their demise, which is shown further as they would still defy you, even when brought to deaths door.
This game has many natural (and unnatural) elements. told through the eyes of a draak, but this example stood out to me.
Subscribed for monster hunter content, but you've been delivering good vids on other topics as well! Glad you are able to easily diversify your subjects so the channel doesn't get stale. If you ever need a fresh batch of fictional creatures to analyze, games like Subnautica may be nice. I would also like to see you trying to make sense of the "Mr. Potato-Head"-esque monsters of No Man's sky, but that may be more trouble than it's worth lol.
yeah, Subnautica would be interesting
What about the creatures of Pandora?
There are some fictional creatures out there no one can make any sense out of.
@@unicorntomboy9736 this can be nice too
My headcanon is that prehistoric dragons use to live in a world of giant fauna with parents having relatively medium size clutches but been very close to their caretake for years but still very few getting to adulthood, but as times changes the some populations where absorb by human intervention, as you speak in the video and due to inbreeding and also a lack of parental instincts is due to be used to humans to take care of their childs in a way forgetting how to raise there young ones, and that in actuality if wild dragons still exist they are far from the giants of the past but max get to the size drogon when it rescue Danerys in the colloseum, living mostly of hunting big mammals and tracking packs in lands still untouch by big human populations
Remember that in the south most continent there are wyvern who are like dragons except without fire or a large size.
@@theshimmereffect3506 And in Sothoryos there appears to be alot of megafauna too. There are giant apes that can kill elephants with a single blow, for example. Makes sense to hypothesise that the rest of the world had megafauna too, and that Dragons are similar to Wyverns but with a touch of wishy washy fire magic from being from the "heart of summer", the opposite of the magical "heart of winter" where the White Walkers come from.
Similarly to real life, humans could have wiped out most of the megafauna in Essos and Westeros, like how humans who migrated to Europe and Asia killed a lot of the megafauna there.
You've covered the Peter Jackson take on Skull Island's denizens, but how about the Monsterverse? Be interesting to see you take a look at the weird MUTO species inhabiting the island in perpetual storms, namely the Skullcrawlers.
That be cool
I watched this repeatedly serval times more than your other videos just this video really opens up a new form of world building
Very glad it delivered!
Literally couldn’t click on this video fast enough, I already know I’m going to watch this video several times!!!
Can only hope it delivers!
could not second this more
@@unnaturalhistorychannel Everything you make is incredibly. I feel like I learned truly important stuff from you.
Thank you for making all of as a little bit wiser!
@@unnaturalhistorychannel it was everything I could have ever wanted and more!!!!
Slight correction on Deanyeres eggs theyre sepculted to have been stolen from the brood of Dreamyfre a targeyan dragon.
Have seen said speculations, though GRRM himself said he deliberately left it open ended.
@@unnaturalhistorychannel true In the orginal Game of thrones book There origin is a mystery.
The fire wryms kinda reminded of Akantor and Ukanlos. Large powerful creatures that can prey on equally powerful dragons.
this has been some of the most interesting content on RUclips thank you for your work
Thank you so much for saying! You’re very welcome
Your run through of the skull island island field guide was just perfect! I listen to it once or twice a month!
I like ceraxes' leg wings. He looks like he's wearing a pair of little dragon bloomers. Its cute and he should keep them.
😂
0:19 I still feel pain hearing that. 😔 😢
as a biologist and an Iranian this vid is everything: biology and historical mythology.
i truly don't understand the notion of contextualizing knowledge seeking as derogatory.
it's the ultimate oxymoron when ppl use "geek" and "nerd" as descriptors.
I think Martin probably sat down and thought out, biologically, how a dragon could fit into the ecosystem of Planetos. As a writer, he is very interested in genetics, genetic diseases (like hemophilia), and the results of inbreeding (Craster's Keep, the entire Targaryen family), and so much more. To the casual reader, some of these elements could go unnoticed, but it is all there in the text. ASOIAF is a world dominated by genetic diversity, so I absolutely believe that ideas like inbreeding depression were at the very least in Martin's mind when he writes. Did he think out every single point the video points to? Probably not. But to say he thought about NONE of the points the video raises is, to me, absolutely ridiculous.
I don't often double comment, but what was said at 35:00 really made me want to say that I think Martin probably would be glad to know that so much of his material can be found in the natural world, because it is beyond contention that this was his goal. Hell, the physical design of his dragons (four limbs, opposed to the traditional European dragon's six) was a conscious decision because no animal alive has six limbs. He wanted his dragons to be plausible creatures, and I think the video does a great job at showing how very plausible they are.
I did say that I think Martin intentionally put some stuff that leads to inbreeding = bad in there. But just that I don't think he or many authors plot things out to quite this level. Some theories may not gel with his intentions too; I'm unsure what his thoughts on his dragons being scavengers or dependent on man would be.
Martin is also one of many heavily influenced by Vermithrax (hence Vermithor's name being tribute to her) that probably also helped lead to him wanting grounded dragons like her too.
Correction: No *vertebrate* animal has six limbs.
@@freshboy3968no vertebrate *land* animals have 6 limbs
@@grantflippin7808 U know what, touche.
Just FYI: the Subject Matter expert on dragons in Martin's world was Septon Barth during the reign of King Jaeherys I...his main body of work on dragons is called... Dragon, Wyrms and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History but is often just referred to as "Unnatural History" in the book series :) Thought you would enjoy knowing that.
never seen a single clip of anything game of thrones - related, but this was still entertaining and informative. great video.
Oh my goodness yes!!! So happy you're covering this subject!
This video really made me realize that I come to this channel not for monster hunter but for your thorough and well researched and thought out breakdown of monster ecology, I would love to see a game get made with your input into monster designs and behavior, sometimes it's good to remember that you have a pretty impressive skillset that is hard to find. It's easy to lose sight of that when we tend to surround ourselves with people who share our interest.
I too look forward to more house of the dragon if not only to hear you talk about it!
Really nicely done with this one UHC, brought up quite a few points that Ive seen some other folks bring up like dragons hunting by the coast and sea where they have suficiently large prey for them. Vhagars suprsingly long and narrow wing space reminded me of an Albatros which are known for roaming the seas for most of their life. Odly Syrax also has these narrowerish wings too, and I am starting to think that Vhagar might be a horse skulled dragon instead(With Balerion been the Rex skulled and Meraxes the Wolf Skulled one), and given her scale colour I wander if she and Sunfyre might be from Vermithor and Silverwings clutches, and given how much Vermithor looks like Vhgar from the small glipse we got of him and the fact that at least in the books Vhagar is described as been bronze with blue green highlights(which was reversed in the show) I would not be surprised if he was her son.
Speaking of which I wander if the Targaryen dragons might have lost some parental instincts due to having their eggs taken away from where their laid by the Dragoon Keepers and put in the hatcheries, which is kinda sad if you think about it, Dreamfyre and Silverwing must have laid more eggs than all other she dragons given what we know of em and neither managed to raise a hatchling. Unless GreyGhost is Silverwings as well.
The breeding stuff for show and power is sth I have speculated off as well, I imagine they might even have had more than the 3 types of dragons we know in Old Valyria that did difrent tasks. Like builder dragons with hoter flames that lasted longer to aid in construction,messenger dragons build for endurance and speed,war dragons like the 3 types the Targaryens have, or even smaller flamboiant companion dragons that basically where like rare cats or exotic bird companions to show status and wealth,with bright colours,patterns and ornementation. But allas in the end all left in the known world was 5 Targaryen dragons,4 died and Balerion was left, which makes me wander if those 4 only left Vhagars and Meraxes eggs and if possibly Cannibal too or did non of the rest of their eggs hatch or if those eggs did end up hatching but those dragons never did anything noteworthy to be written down in the histories, like in the first HOTD scene where told that the Targeryens had 10 adults at the time which is impossible cause they only had 6, 8 if we include Sheepstealer and Cannibal, which means there where 4-2 wild adults out there. Intrestingly as you mentioned despite dragons been magical and having very high body tempertures they did seem to start getting more vulnerable as the generations go. Balerion himself was injured by sth probably magical in his trip to Valyria and that along with him moving to the Dragonpit and his already large size and age seemed to seel his fate. Vhagar seemingly wasting away faster than Balerion did. Its definetly an intresting point and while I feel like dragons due to their magical properties are a bit more inbreeding resistant I think their not completly immune to it.
As for the origins of the Dragons I preffer the theory that the first dragons where a global species that was tamed and shaped into the more familiar dragons by the Emipre Of The Dawn. Then became wild after the First Long Night, only to be bonded again with their decendants in Valyria and the rest is history.
But yeah overall really enjoyable watch, I adore the ASOIAF dragons, I hold them up as the best of the best in terms of modern dragon media, both due to them feeling naturalistic and also magical with their ionyzed black bones,lava like blood,surprising intelegence and the magical bond they share with their riders. Which does make me wander since Caraxes wasnt there for his first ridder when he died, and possibly feeling some guilt over it,and given how tiered and resigned to the end he was Caraxes was sencing those emotins as well. We know he can cause he reacted to Daemons pain geting shot with an arrow with a screeth of pain, Daemons emotions for Rhaenyra been reflected with him and Syrax, especially given some of the physical similartied Vermax and Arrax have with the two of em. So mayhaps Caraxes did just decide to end it all there and not give up on his task despite him been torn to shreads in the process.
I also wander if in a similar effect Rhaenyras overwhelming grief and rage at seen what she thought was one of 2 remaining children she still had die filled Syrax witch such an emotional surge that she landed and just lashed out at the rioters. We know she can feel Rhaenyras pain if Visenya's birth is anything to go by. I think it just adds a sence of tragedy to it all
Another absolute banger of a video. I didn't expect you to talk about asoiaf. You actually made many good and interesting points especially the ones about the dragon breeding. Overall this was an amazing and really entertaining video. My favorite so far. Merry early Christmas enjoy the holidays
I didn’t expect to get emotional and feel sorry for fantasy animals that never existed. The idea, that the dragons in Got and Hotd went instinct because of inbreeding sad but also a unique aproach in the way dragons are usually portrayed.
The firewyrms as parasitoid reptiles is interesting. I do find it unlikely that the Valyarian freehold would allow such threats to their dragons to exist right next to main powerbase. Its also a question how such parasitoid species would be have to survive when the wild dragon populations in fourteen flames declined over the millennia rein of Old Valyria since the dragonlords' certainly would not allow their prized beasts near such threats. My personal headcanon is the ancestral dragon stock, wyverns and firewyrms form a single clade from a common draconic ancestor. The ancestor was likely already volant then the wyvern lineage split of first. Then the common ancestor of dragons and firewryms developed firebreathing abilities afterwards the dragons and firewryms lineages diverged and firewryms secondary loss flight. I think firewyrms are just another top order predator that occasionally competes with dragons possible breeding sites or food sources which would explain balerions wounds and lack parasitoid infection when he would be a much more desirable host for egg incubation. There also the issue of success of dispersal since young dragons can fly where ever they wish and the firewyrms seem to be restricted to very warm or volcanic areas, it seems less fit to chose a host that would deposit neonates in unsuitable environment when the y erupt from the host just like what happen to Princess Aerea.
This video and the analysis on devilJoe are some of my most favorite videos coming from this channel
I always thought the dragons would have more sea based diet. Danys dragon tale looks like it could be used for swimming and could take down a whale easily. Big game big enough to satiate could not be available other than bears, cattle, or maybe elephants from Essoes
Then why would they evolve fire breath? And anyway I think that takes away some of the idea that there is something inherently magical about these lizards, that they are "fire made flesh" as people usually put them. I think its possible that Wyverns do this, and there's the theory that Dragons are a result of some interbreeding between Wyverns and the Fire Wyrms in Valyria, so who knows.
I’m in love with this types of videos! Thank you sincerely for making them, they are super interesting
8:20 did not expect the face-biting monster comparison and yet it seems apt
meleys convex skull gave me more of the horse like impression than wolf tbh but who knows
I always thought wolf, but horse is possible too. She has a weird head.
Caraxes looks very similar to the wyvern at 32:00. Curious how it's also mentioned that Valyrians did some blood magic tomfoolery at the continent they are found in.
You should do a video about the ecology of pandora. I think that would be an interesting video subject to cover.
Loved the video, honestly didn't really expect an Asoiaf video. My question is, what do you think about the Avatar movies? Is there something to analyze about the creatures of Pandora or is the word building just shallow?
Absolutely love this vid! Informative and entertaining. Amplifies the enjoyment of both books and shows.
This was a fantastic video. You've somehow managed to say something about dragons in ASOIAF that has yet to be said. I hope you make more videos about the ASOIAF universe.
Also, I don't know if dragons died off because of inbreeding, but GRRM made his dragons with two limbs because of his knowledge of ecology. Perhaps he thought of inbreeding as well.
I really want to share this video with a bunch of people but they’re not gonna want spoilers for later seasons. 😭
The point you made about the dragons stemming from Balerion, Meraxes and Vhagar is questionable as the Targaryens brought 5 dragons from Valyria to dragonstone one of them being Balerion.
It's just that Balerion was the only one that lived out of them and Meraxes and Vhagar were Westerosi by birth.
The world of ice and fire is a interesting concept about what type of monsters or creatures they have lurking in the world of westboroughs Interesting about the dragon types.
I love these kinds of videos. It was amazing. Getting to know a little more about how dragons work etc. War interesting. Thank you for this hard work!!
Hopefully the writers won’t kinda forgot about something
Definitely not a huge fleet of ships
I have a theory that Valyrian Dragons are of a different variety to the more widespread kind of Dragon.
Valyrian dragons are used to living in close proximity to each other and if they were naturally large would have to heavily compete for territory and food. Which just is t feasible if Valyrian dragons are as large as Balerion or Vhagar.
But Valyrian dragons were smaller, about the size of a dog.
They could exist in colonies or packs like many bird species do. Then the Valyrians could over the eons select larger and larger dragons from the initial population. Creating the massive and social variety we see now.
While the cannibal is territorial and will force other dragons away (like sheepstealer)
Tbf if Dragons were in the Jungle, they Could Act Sort of Like Bison or Elephants but Way More Extreme by Simply Burning Away any Tree Obstacles. This Would Probably Take Away many Breeding Areas for Wyverns While Reducing Foliage Blockage.
Great to see someone of your calibre really digging into the dragons of game of thrones, and I would love to one day see you have a stab of the ones from reign of fire
So a couple things I'd like to know your take on
1. There is the theory that dragons where made by breading wyverns and fire wyrm with blood magic, how much do you think that theory holds up
2 how dragons breath fire as they have tubes at the back of the throat that I assumed would spray 2 chemicals together but at the same time the fire seems to come from further down the neck and chest, how would you explain the fire breath
3. The old dragons dying not just due to old age but due to the fact that they constantly grow as they age they eventually buckle under the square cube law and get to big for the organs to function or even hold thier own wait up
I doubt the last one its say in Valyria dragons were even bigger than the ones the targs had
Loving the branching out, monster hunter will always be my favorite but diversity is amazing
Your channel is what "Fantastic Beasts and where to find them" should of been. Freaking love this channel
Remember the reason caraxes looks the way he does isn’t because he was bread that way he is actually deformed
There's the possibility that, while deformed, ceraxies might have been selected and nurtured for his unique abilities.
I'm just wondering how humanity even managed to domesticate such gigantic carnivores
Perhaps they stole eggs from wild ones and it went on from there?
The Targaryans used blood magic to give there bloodline the ability to bond with the dragons
@@jeambeam3173
Oh
Okay, cheers
Words I learned today!
Inbreeding depression
Kleptoparasitism
Ontological niche partitioning!
Yay science in a fantasy mellieau!
I'm pleased to see it!
"hot-D" is the only adequate way to reference a series with and partially about giant dragons, clearly
Something that would be very interesting to discover is if dragons can breed with wyverns. If they can, it's likely most wild dragons in Sothoryos eventually were absorbed into the greater wyvern populations over several generations. Perhaps now, here and there in Sothoryos you'll come across a wyvern that's WAY bigger than what's typical for its species, indicating dragon descent.
Those dogs have a suicidal dedication to fight because they get tortured and killed horrifically if they dont. Aint a predesposed neurological thing about it.
Your incorrect pit bulls that are Trained and Kept in Well off homes have beem known to go ballistic and attack other dogs and peoeple and suicidely not let go no matter the Damage they may encure.
It's surprising the Valyrian dragons could breed at all considering they were alleged to be blood magic hybrids (wyverns, fire worms & possibly human )
There is a pretty strong theory, that the maesters actually poisoned the dragons to prevent another dance from happening again. Thats probably why Sunfyre couldn’t heal its wounds or why the last dragon died so young
The tyrannosaurus skulled dragon makes me think how strong is it’s bite force
I posit, with no traditional education in evolutionary biology, that a reason for the small clutches is another factor in the column of human dependence. Over millennia of selective breeding, the idea that a need to produce a large number of eggs is diminished, as they have dragon riders hatching and caring for their young.
i like the idea about the dragons diieng because of inbreeding far more than the popular master-conspiracy. It also seems more likely that that the maester managed to do what all of the enslaved or conquered valyrian freehold didnt managed.
I also want to mention that from a narrative point of view, the decline of dragon may mirror the decline of the targaryen. Its a huge misconception that the targaryen are immune to the consequences of inbreeding while in truth there are multiple hints of this not beeing the case.
One thing I've always loved pointing out for Caraxes.
Look at how he moves, how he flies, and hear his roars.
Caraxes is a Dragon killer.
That extra set of wings on his hind legs, and tail fin, he's a menace in the air, he could probably fly circles around the other dragons.
Cause in the "natural world" what hunts a dragon?
They're Apex predators, nothing could hunt them except for other dragons, so whats keeping them from breeding and taking over the world?
Slow birth rates? Not exactly, House of the Dragon shows a lot of eggs being gathered.
No, predation is the only way the world's "nature" can keep a species like theirs in check.
Thus, The Wolf Dragons.
A sub type thats designed to hunt and kill other dragons.
Cool theory and it might work but not with caraxes. He is described as malformed, twisted and wrong. His throat is so weirdly shaped that he is unable to roar. He can only screech. He is a very rare exception, not really a subspecies
Thanks for showing me Caraxes. I finally have a base design for a scrapped Godzilla Kaiju: Pterodactyl. For context, it was going to be in Godzilla 2014 and was essentially a four-winged pterosaur kaiju before be re-worked into the Male MUTO.
Now that we are talking about new topics i think that ARK:survival evolved could give some interesting topics for some videos
I think the 2 extra wings is for long distance flying like it can help him glide with out needing to flap his wings to save energy
the show runners said it's actually there to help balance out his body during flight...due to his elongated deformity. Without his hind wings he'd be unable to fly at all according to the showrunners
Yikes. I suppose there is nothing more unnatural than a top order predator that will pick a fight with something bigger than itself and continue until one of them stops moving.
Well there was not enough time, nor genetic stock to actually breed dragons this way unless the Targaryen's had a very diverse selection of eggs from Valeria. The 5000 years of the dragonlords would be enough to produce such variations, but not just the 3 dragons the Targaryens started with. I suspect that magic had a greater part to play in the dragon varieties and eventually withering when magic became weak than the poor genetic pool, but at the same time Game of Thrones clearly has enough realism built in that being inbred would have harmed both the dragons and their masters and was substantially part of their downfall.
I think it’s highly likely that the dragons Aegon and his sister/wives used during the conquest are the 3 different dragons breeds. Balerion was definitely the “tyrannosaur” type and Vhagar seems to be another. So maybe Meraxes was the 3rd breed
This is an unbelievably based video. Well done and thank you for your work
May I Request an episode on Gammoth
Lol i thought ceraxes has a long neck cause it helped her reach for food when enclosed
Dragons.. as mighty as they are could not save the show's last season
The way you commingle real world biological information with the fictitious creatures of GRRM's world is very interesting and entertaining.
A damn fine way to spend nearly three quarters of an hour.
I swear to God I had to watch 5 different ads before I could watch the video
If the plot didn’t have to move in a certain way, caraxes could’ve landed on vhagars back and tore at her wings leaving him out of harms way while vhagar can do nothing but flail around trying to get caraxes off her back
This is everything I’ve wanted on the dragons. I want more lol x
George has extremely strongly alluded to the fact that the Golden Empire Of The Dawn spliced the genetics of Fire Wyrms and Wyverns to create Dragons.
My personal theory is that Aegon started the conquest as he realised he could do it now, or never, because the dragons would eventually get too inbred to be effective weapons of war
0:47-1:00 feels very fitting for the latest episode of HotD (S2 E5)
Loved this! You are the best youtuber.
I’m pretty sure caraxes is just deformed due to heavy inbreeding just like the rest of the dragons in the same generation.
Big fan here thought (been watching since I found your bird wyvern video that was recommended to me) I thought that maybe one day you could do videos on some of frontiers monsters like two of my favorite monsters Pariapuria and Baruragaru (or Great Girros since you never covered him in your video on the pack based monsters) or for something non monster hunter related you could cover the aliens from Ben 10 (anyone else remember that show? it's been years since I last watched it man that show was good). But hey that's just a suggestion a RUclips comment suggestion thanks for reading! (That joke was right there I had too).
When it comes to Valyrian people and dragon inbreding, I think we still need more official information to properly understand anything concrete. About the small number in dragon eggs, I think it may be due to the wrong prospective rider trying t ohatch them. Dragons seem to need a deep conection with its master to be able to fully realize itself. That may also be the reason why dragons with multiple past rider being less well behaved, cause those didn't hatch it.
Snakes like the King and Milk snakes are specialists in eating other snakes like rattlesnake. King Cobras will also each each each other.