Scariest thing about this whole deal, in my opinion, is that if anyone but Magnus had blown the whistle, I am not sure anything would be happening to Hans
@@Kizerlk07 but he made calculated moves to minimize the hate though like winning the following championship by destroying competition and reaching 2900 in style. He knew winners will always be taken more seriously and proved that he's still somewhat above competition and hence his claims have credibility,and it's not just him being sensitive about it. The man has like 180IQ and he knows how to use it lol
Yeah. He's cheated for over EIGHT YEARS and no one has done anything. All he had to do was keep his fucking ego in check, but he thought it was a good idea to end the GOATs winning streak 😂😂
Naka and Danya are missing the pattern. Based on these first 2 games and also Bok games reviewed by Bok, the pattern is Hans gets clearly behind and (almost) losing in position, then its like flipping a switch and he blitzes out highly accurate moves to come back and win. Instead of calculating accuracy of the entire game, calculate accuracy from the point of his worst position until he wins.
@@abhir7823 They don't have to be 100%, if he is using his head. All he has to do is study the situation with an engine for a few seconds and go for any line that gives him an eventual advantage, he doesn't need to play top moves.
The worst part is that at Sinquefield Hans looked the camera, Alejandro, Yasser, Svidler and the entire chess community right in the eye and (seemingly) *BOLD-FACED LIED* about the severity and amount of times he cheated. He apparently also lied about cheating in matches for prize money. Many good-hearted (though naïve) viewers of this emotional appeal were even swayed-- I find this unforgiveable. You can't say "it was when I was a kid!" if you lied to the entire chess world a ~month ago. Hans also refused to answer Yasser when Yasser asked who his coach was... Hans was given numerous chances at redemption by Chesscom and he just took advantage of them. Same way he took advantage of the benefit of the doubt from the entire chess community after his "emotional appeal" at Sinquefield. He's toxic for chess and has illustrated his character beyond any reasonable doubt.
Hans may cheted online but i dont think in otb.. As a chess professional the person who caught cheating know the consequences so those who want carier as a chess professional wont cheat again unless someone is full
@@prathameshlotake1318 That's just wrong, cheaters usually become addicted and find it really hard to stop cheating. You don't cheat in 100 games and then randomly mature past cheating.
@@saucywoo yeah ur right you wouldn’t change that behavioral pattern randomly it would usually take a big confrontation and that might start with your admittance of mistakes and then you might make some sort of promise along with setting a long term future goal that will help you keep ur promise. Of course none of this happened to Hans so he would only stop cheating of a random occurrence.
I remember early 2020 on stream Hikaru being asked if he thinks Hans will ever become a GM...Hans was a slightly above average IM at the time and Hikaru openly said he thought Hans had it in him if he worked really hard to get GM but his window to become anything close to a strong GM was gone because of his age and lack of growth. Hikaru even said that playing him never felt a challenge and compared him to likes of Jefferey, saying there was no comparison. Fast forward 2 years and when I saw Hans hit 2650, then quickly 2700 I was shocked to the point of near disbelief based on Hikarus words in 2020. No Smoke without fire generally speaking.
It's a point I've made in other comments. Strong GMs generally, especially in recent years, reveal their talent at a much earlier stage. Most 2700s became GMs at 14 or 15, not at 17.
@@raylopez99 Don't put words in Ken's mouth. His model does not determine if someone is not cheating. It only really finds obvious cheating as well as the fact that his method is public which means it can be manipulated.
@Andy Kurmann It's old news. HN himself already said he cheated twice, and not "two times" but twice in his online career. Mr. Andy "Witchhunt" Kurmann
He simultaneously has had the largest rise in strength while also maintaining the highest variability in his play. That seems consistent with someone cheating sometimes to avoid suspicion.
About the differences in accuracy: they updated the version of Stockfish they use at some point. If games are old enough, they would have been analyzed with an older version of Stockfish instead of the latest one, which would explain the difference in accuracy displayed in the archive versus the game review. Some games will be higher or lower than the old accuracy displayed.
@@lettersnstuff It's going to vary by the game. I looked at some of the games saved in my library. A draw I played against a streamer had accuracy scores of 94 and 90 with the old engine, but 84 and 82 in the new one. Some of my 99 accuracy games were bumped up to 100 while others were actually lowered to 98. One interesting game I found had 82 for my opponent and 62 for me in the old one, but 77 for me and 71 for my opponent with the new one. One other thing I noticed is that even after analyzing with the new engine, the accuracy score displayed in the archive will still be the old one. That might confuse some people.
Stockfish is also not the only engine. He could be using a different engine that evaluates the position based on different heuristics. Honestly, if he's software inclined he could've even made his own that just Min Max's with alpha beta pruning using his gpu. Kasparov found a way to beat these back in the 90s by acting irrationally, but if you don't know you're playing an ai it's much harder to do, even with mediocre chess ai.
Matt Parker came up with the 10 Billion Human Second Century when investigating Dream’s speedruns in minecraft a while ago, saying, if 10 billion people were each doing a complete minecraft speedrun every second, 24 hours a day for a century, one of those ten billion people would have one run as lucky as Dream’s. just because there’s not video tape evidence of the dude putting the beads in doesn’t mean there’s no evidence he cheated
@@inthefade Yes but it will make a lot of tops players avoid palying him=so many events wont invite Hans unless he can prove he's not cheating Because no players want to play with a cheater
If your opponent blunders, it is easier to find the best moves and thus having the best accuracy. Having the 97% accuracy isn't crazy when you can find one or two best moves which results in your opponent being worse and thus the other best moves will be easier to find (unless crazy computer tactic).
@@1skim567 Right? That's pretty much what Magnus finally did, and even he's gotten a ton of flack for it. One of the only reasons he's been taken seriously is because he's Magnus
The only real solution for future tournaments is to step up security across the board. If Hans was able to cheat otb, then even if he weren't participating the fact remains that anyone else could do it.
The solution is to have no live observers for Hans games (and anyone caught cheating) until they can prove themselves with consistent results. No observers - no signal going to anal beads, unless he manages a camera in a retina implant.
If this incident educates the Chess world about how sophisticated cheating occurs it may be the most beneficial incident because it may bring MUCH NEEDED integrity to a game that did not realize how much it was needed.
The Chess world should have realized it sooner because it has been a million dollar game for quite a while now. For example both Caruana and Nepo got almost $500.000 for losing the world title match. That's an insane amount of money for a couple of games of chess. Every human sports that is a million (or billion) dollar industry is a magnet for cheaters. That's just the way it is. By the way, Hans earned $18.000, just by ending 5th in the sinquefield cup, which he got invited to by cheating and if he had lost against Magnus, noone would have been the wiser as well. For every brash, loudmouth guy like Niemann, I am betting there is more than 1 that is silent and smart about it. Someone hat always end up in the middle but silently fills their pockets left and right with 10.000 here and 15.000 there.
I wish Hikaru would have talked about the part of the article that said they've caught FOUR of the top 100 players cheating and they've admitted to it.
Usually I hate when people exaggerate and say things are disasters when they are not, but I have to agree here. This really is a huge disaster, and I don't think any kind of cheating prevention will be entirely foolproof against cheating. I don't see a clear solution here.
@@_arman_ x-ray is not enough. Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but NO cheating prevention method that is visible/known is enough. That is why antiviruses have to be updated every so often. Extremely small filaments could be used to transmit informations. I’m also unsure as to how thin something has to be before being noticeably different from a bone fissure. I’m pretty sure someone could bundle a version of stockfish small enough and specialized enough to fit on a very small chip, and work with very little memory. On top of that, the constant exposure to x-rays (which don’t exactly work like you seem to think they do) would probably be detrimental to the players’ health. I’m not a good chess player, nor have I cheated, yet I wouldn’t want to be submitted to constant xRays. Finally, anyone in the public could give indications. The closest to secure I could find was full scanner before the game, and game played in a small room surrounded by one way mirrors, preventing impact from the room. And yet, just thinking about it, I can find a few ways to defeat even that…
@@fendalynn6604 Hm... I think the trick is not finding the device but jamming any potential electronic signal in the room where their playing I'm sure this can be done
@@fendalynn6604 This is a common misconception among those who have no security experience. Sorry to burst your bubble but you are misinformed and ignorant.
Anyone that has ever maintained a competitive game server can tell you, if you actively look for cheaters, it's not all THAT hard to find them (without even going overboard and invading privacy). Just looking at the replay doesn't tell the full pictures. Some of the information that help spot cheaters: 1. The outlier moves 2. The timing 3. Active windows (switching between windows - actually not particularly difficult to know what you Toggled into) 4. Mouse movement (within a game, mouse movement is incredibly consistent AND incredibly difficult to mimic if you weren't playing naturally). 5. Background programs >> add these (and more) information and correlate to when Hans make Engine like moves vs. when he makes lesser moves, and it would not be hard to find the trail of "possible cheating". With thousands and thousands of games played by his peers, it would be extremely easy to spot irregularities. Repeated irregularities become harder and harder to explain away by "lucky move | I happened to study this line | my phone range | my mouse slip | I had to check bitcoin prices | whatever" One example (not saying that it happened here, but it happened in the game I was monitoring): Some (most) players click on (or hover over) the piece that they are expecting to move next (or in Chess, pre-move even). When a cheater checked for a move, this disrupts his natural habit. The mouse movement is VERY different from a normal move [no click and hold | no thinking time after getting back from another program]. Repeat this often enough, and the cheat becomes very obvious. Most obvious cheats (though I doubt Hans is this stupid): 1. Have chess engine running in the background (even if the program is renamed) - check his play with program A running vs. program A not running. 2. Toggle to said program - check his play with toggle vs. without toggle 3. Mouse movement after toggle to said program - easy to check if his mouse movement correspond to constructing the current board of his game (though it's possible the board is automatically updated according to his game - this would make it harder as he wouldn't need to toggle / update as he can just have the second program always running and glance at it).
@@raylopez99 But Regan is a statistician, he uses so little information relative to what's available in an online game. It is hard to look at JUST the moves and claim statistical outliers (cheating) irresponsibly. I respect his research and god knows he's probably amazing in his field, but his algorithm is ultimately flawed in catching cheaters who are already high level players. Without being 100% accurate (you can look at his paper yourself), he summarized his algorithm's ability to catch cheaters as "3 moves per game, across 9 games clustered in close proximity"... what kind of GM needs 3 unnatural moves to win a game (mind you, after the initial help, the follow up is often considered a natural progression... and if you space out the cheating, your ELO moves up and the unnatural moves for your rating is now considered natural). Regan helps find cheaters, but only the most egregious ones (or ones who do not have innate Chess skill). To statistically say Hans is cheating OTB is such a high bar to clear. Regan is of course correct to not point fingers recklessly, but I mean... can we all agree that known cheaters have higher probability to continue cheaters when compared to "random player"? If we apply such prior to his algorithm, it's possible the results differ greatly.
@@vinni522 Word salad noted, tho fact you read Regan's paper is impressive. Aside from the fact it's nearly impossible to get a receiver to allow Hans to cheat OTB, the question you should consider is this: given your methodology, how is being a cheater according to you different from being a strong player like MC? It's not. Go to Jozarov's channel and review the video "Magnus Carlsen's Stockfish Performance against Hans Niemann" - and then tell us, did MC cheat vs Hans since MC got nearly 100% correlation with an engine?
Part of me wants to see Hans try to run with this and try to spin it as if he’s just that genius. I want to hear him be like, “I’m just built different bro.”
@@BorrowedMemories Hans cheating in plain sight is very “David Blaine”-esque. It’s like a magic trick where everyone thinks they can see everything, but can’t figure out how the card ended up in the person’s wallet. We know it’s a trick, but can’t figure out the trick. Just like we know Hans is cheating OTB now, the specific mechanism just hasn’t been discovered yet.
Right? What are the chances that a person who repeatedly cheats is also better than Fischer in his prime while others are still struggling. But Hans fans will shout “No evidence” and move on
@@ARS1508 MC is better than Fischer in is prime. A high school athlete broke Olympian great Jesse Owens track record a few years ago. Human progress. I don't see your point.
It's telling that Hikauru couldn't find anything suspicious in a game where Hans cheated. That means that you can't just look at a game, you need all the tools available to know whether someone cheated or not. So people saying Hans didn't cheat against Magnus couldn't possibly be able to make that call.
Hans should go out with a bang. He should have about 2 meters of anal beads… prepare strange openings as white like 1. H4 and then crush his opponents with main engine lines the whole way through. Play the moves as soon as he receives the info too. Just absolutely crush EVERYONE until the tournament organizer has to remove the beads himself with his own bare hands. After they extract the beads, he should just yell “Wu-Tang!” and leave.
I dont think the measures to prevent cheaters should be concerned/dictated by anything being "costly". They just spent 83 MILL for play with magnus. Im sure they can afford a better scanner than $9.00 from amazon.
Hans’ alleged cheating appears to have 1 thing in common: only cheat at pivotal moments (tournaments, when he needs the ELO etc.)… So his OTB alleged cheating against Magnus makes sense for the fact that it would shock the chess world and catapult his career. While riskier than online cheating the reward in his mind likely outweighed the risk. Also given how little punishment he has gotten for being caught in the past it likely only incentivized his cheating further.
@mister kluge That Stockfish GitHub but plug was huge. The elephant in the room for Hans Haters is how the he ll do you fit a receiver to accept moves in real time? They checked his ear, his shoes and scanned his whole body. A non-metallic receiver? If HN has that kind of technology, he should quit chess and sell his invention to the CIA, I'm sure they'd be interested and it would be more profitable than cheating in chess too.
I think to better understand this situation you have to learn about Alan Turing. Turing having solved one of the most important code systems of the time employed a similar tactic. Purposefully losing and winning accord to a specific strategy intended not to alert people that the code has been deciphered. An interesting story and he succeeded in fooling an entire country.
Lol so many people got so mad at Magnus and thought he was out of line. With time it looks more and more like organizers weren't cracking down on cheating nearly enough, and it took a guy like him to speak up for everyone. Suddenly now all the investigations are going.
It took great courage to come forward like Magnus did and lead this charge. He knew it would be at great personal risk to his own reputation, yet he did it anyways. He could have just stayed quiet about it and went on dominating against people other than Hans and his career would have been fine. But he put his name on the line to take a stand against cheating, KNOWING how much people would just call him a “sore loser” and such. I commend Magnus for having the bravery to do what this community didn’t want to do, but needed to do.
Honestly, we need more people like Magnus. It is scary to imagine what would happen (obviously nothing) if ANYONE other than him spoke up. They would be PUBLICALLY HANGED for it.
Magnus yet again proves his alpha-chaddery by standing up along for what is right and facing the shitstorm of critics who want to bury their heads in the sand
Well to be fair, Magnus already _had_ this information, but he didn't disclose it for a month... is everyone just supposed to 'take his word for it'? I think not. In the end though, he's played it well, because he allowed the drama to fester for a month, bringing heaps of media attention in the process... Magzy playing 4D chess in this instance: Although you _still_ can't prove he cheated at Sinquefield, the move here is obvious: KEEP inviting him to tournaments, only crank up the cheat detection to 11 in the ones where he's present (make it the same for everyone, so as to avoid any hints of favoritism), and either catch him in the act, or scare him into ceasing his cheating, in which case his rating and results will plummet, and everyone will _know_ why. Magnus has laid the groundwork, and this is the way forward.
@@johnbowman3630 I think you DO take his word that something is suspicious, if he's never done it before. And Magnus' word is the LEAST important reason I believe he is guilty.
All Hans needed to do was turn off stockfish when he played Magnus over the board. Now it's full-blown. lol. His silence over this matter clearly speaks for itself
If cheating, especially in fast paced games, I guess you’ll pick the moves you instantly understand the tactics of. If you don’t instantly understand an AI suggestion, you’ll probably pick the next move, unless it says there’s only one move that will keep, or give the advantage. The report said he generally played better when toggling, didn’t it? If I was Hans I’d get cold sweat running down my back when I read that.
Glad to see you here Cuckoo. And yes, Hans is a cheater, and should be banned. People arguing it's "only" online would say that athletes getting caught using steroids is ok as long as it's only during practice. 🤷
Interesting that he “stopped” cheating online around the time his otb rating skyrocketed. Maybe he started using his newly developed otb cheating method online
I would assume the window toggling is a big part of the evidence. If so everyone has to realize that this can easily be circumvented by having a second PC. If they don't catch Hans now, they should know they will no longer have this data moving forward.
Haru, you have to guess the moves before he makes them to get a better sense. after the move it makes sense, but try to guess pre-move and perhaps the cheating will be more clear.
I said 2 weeks ago, he would eventually get caught and, possible charges of fraud would be levied against him, for taking prize money, while knowingly and willfully cheating.
I'm a mix of annoyed and amused that I've actually read the entire report, and I look at Twitter and it's just Hans simps replying to Magnus simps "We have found no evidence of OTB blah blah" as if they are winning the argument, while leaving out 20 pages of Hans being sus, a liar, devious, an aberration, a serial cheater, and a prize money theif.
Yeah, the worst part is how clearly the report doesn't even say that. It explains why such evidence is basically impossible after the fact, and that for that reason they cannot suggest or imply any conclusion regardless of how 'interesting' some of the statistical aberrations are. It's basically lawyerspeak for "I'm not saying, I'm just sayin'."
If you have a Math test on which you answer all 98 questions out of 100 but cheat on the last 2 questions. You are a cheater nonetheless. There is no 'more-cheater' or 'less-cheater'. RIP Niemann's chess career.
Totally agree with you, so for all the cheaters out there who read the comment, just keep cheating, it literally doesn't matter if you only did it once then stop and change your behavior, you are basically equal to hans, and if your career ended, go find another job and cheat again,you already branded as cheater anyway,like even if you stop, you still a cheater. If you have family, first of all shame on you, secondly just cheat from your significant other, it really doesn't matter, you already cheat on your career, again you are a branded cheater, that means you are also a cheater in relationships. For all the cheaters out there its in fact stupid of you if you stop, its just logical.
I see it normal. Remember that all of these people are friends. At the time, from Dany's perspective It's just a teen doing something stupid. You don't want to ruin his entire life over it. Also, Hans main source of income is streaming chess on twitch via his chesscom account. Banning him from the platform would have been to harsh at that point.
@@boukman3668 holy cow, you understand why he cheat? to get money? or fame? or rating? a full disrespect to hard working kids out there that genuinely want to play world chess championship. You just kill the game and the grind that they doing.
The hasnt cheated online since 2020. I was thinking when the report came out it will show that Hans cheated in 2022 online. But all the report did was just show how extensive Hans cheating was in the past which he already admitted to. So I don't see the big deal here. The REPORT is also offering Hans to play on Chesscom again. That is how much they trust he isn't cheating anymore. The report said they only banned him so they can review this games in light of the recent scandal.
Hans is an outlier in every analysis except in chess analysis where he absolutely sounds like he doesn’t know wtf he is taking about. No outlier there.
@bob ross "oh no! a hateful comment from an internet stranger, I'm literally crying and shaking rn. Please pity and defend me from bullies" - Hans (according to defenders)
@Bradd Shock Music 2 years? really? If it was 5-10 years maybe it's more excusable, but 2 years is too recent to suddenly change how act and feel about certain actions.
The problem for hans now is that he can't completely stop cheating all of a sudden (assuming that he had been doing it all along), which would be very obvious because the difference in quality of play between a 2400 and 2700 can easily be picked up. Now that the focus on hans is so immense and assuming he'll continue to cheat to stay consistent, this is the best time to catch him in the act. Heads up to the US championship organisers.
@@normalguy5583 HN played well after the MC win as well. Experts like Dr. Ken Regan say no cheating by Hans, OTB. You believe in science or RUclipsrs trying to generate news?
Also, to set the record straight, Hans actually played for Norway Gnomes on that Pro Chess League event! I smell that the Hans's secrets were revealed to Magnus through that route.
I love how Hikaru kept reading the results of the findings earlier apparently not identifying to pattern that if it listed a series of games it found that everyone in that series was indicated as possibly exploited or compromised. I mean Hans either is going all in with the engine usage, or his style of play just somehow is so bizarre it provokes false positives from modern cutting edge cheat detection methods. Either way, it was absurd to continue hearing him lost every instance. Cringe. Here to, asking how many of this GMs games may have been suspicious… Um. All of them my guy. All of them… 🤦♀️
@@2DarkHorizon which Olympians? What are you talking about? If deciding not to play against a known cheater is being a cry baby according to you, then good for you for not being a cry baby. I would choose to be a cry baby if I was an elite player
There should be enough integrity among top GM's that they don't need cheating measures. If someone is caught the penalties should be severe, like paying the entire prize pool to the tournament organizers or even jail time. It's theft, ruins the integrity of the game, and minimizes all the effort everyone involved in the tournament put into it.
Assuming most of those "likely cheated games" cheats were actually used I assume Hans just thought he was untouchable at that point. That was 7 years? Of consistently cheating without getting caught. At that point anyone would feel like a god of hiding cheats.
“While that game [Carslen vs Niemann at the Sinquefield Cup] was a high-quality performance by black, there is nothing in it that suggested extraordinary degrees of prowess or insight beyond what a young talented grandmaster could find” - GM Jonathan Rowson
Hans showed up today at US Chess championships and when introduced walked up and picked up a “stuffed shark toy/plushy” from the table (like other players). Not sure if that was before or after the WSJ article.
Hans Moke Niemann should be ( banned ) from playing in the US Chess Championship... Hans Moke Niemann is ( addicted ) to cheating in Chess Online and on the board... The great game of Chess is growing again...; "Why let one man ruin it for ( ALL ) ?" * There is ( NO ) place for cheating in Chess..., Online or on the board. The "Wall Street Journal" article was damning for Hans Moke Niemann and cheating in Chess... " Semper Fi " Mike in Montana :)
@@kylejohnson8447 Hi Kyle..., Because I want to and my followers want me to ( emphasis or emphasize ) my meaning or feelings on the subject or topic. Thank you for the question, and I am sorry the ( emphasis or emphasize ) bothers you... I don't ( criticize ) your comments... " Semper Fi " Mike in Montana P.S.: "You are always ( Welcome ) in Montana." Mike :)
The most damning sign is that it's not just "Hans top right" when it comes to results, it's also "Hans bottom left" when it comes to overall move quality and consistency
I wonder if this is also a problem of timing/pattern recognition. Like if Hans starts getting a losing position and then hans loads up his engine and starts utilising moves provided by that instead suddenly spiking up his elo or if he makes intentional mistakes every so often to look "innocent" or if his response speeds change. Like making mistakes in obvious positions and making brilliant plays in losing positions sort of thing. Edit- just got to 50 mins in yup...sounds like something similar is suspected.
The accuracy in the archived games are probably using the older version of stockfish, wich would explain the difference in accuracy when u open the game up again
like when pro s play on alts acc and make me be tilted and some say it dose not matter?sure bu,they are using stochfish everytime they wanna play wired line and give slack to anyone beating them because they represent the establesment?
Guys, we are looking at a historical meltdown in the chess world right here. Many of the tournaments Hans' cheated in were also about money; and from a perspective of beting (ladbrooks, bet24, etc.,) this too is terrible, because it means someone may have won money they shouldn't have, or more likely LOST money they shouldn't have. This is a complete NIGHTMARE!
My opinion is obvious, hans doesn't use Stockfish or any other strong engine, but he uses engine which creates traps which humans most likely fall in, that's why his opponents lose games and his move is considered to be 'mistake' or 'inaccuracy'.
Assuming you would like a step by step guide on how to fly: 1. Start by standing up straight with your feet shoulder width apart. 2. Bend at the knees and lower your body down into a squatting position. 3. Place your hands on the ground in front of you and shift your weight onto your hands. 4. Kick your feet up off the ground and into the air. 5. As you are kicking your feet up, use your arms to help lift your body up off the ground. 6. Once you are airborne, start flapping your arms up and down to keep yourself aloft. 7. Use your legs to help steer yourself in the direction you want to go. 8. To land, simply reverse the process by slowly lowering your body down to the ground and touching down with your feet first.
You have to accept that Hans is the GOAT his rating is somewhere between 2600-3500 no wonder poor Magnus cannot compete. Shame more top players cannot follow Magus example and just boycott this arrogant buffoon. He has destroyed chess possibly forever.
I had no idea chess was ok with cheating as long as it is online 😂 6 months penalties instead of perma bans is laughable 😂 you expect a cheater to go up the ranks with an engine and then go to the middle of the people play like an idiot? They have to go all the way. But the principle is, it's a matter of trust, if you break it even if it's online, you're a dirty cheater for ever 🤷♂️
I bet he’s making sure that he’s always slightly on the plus side if he’s white or on the negative side if he’s black and not making it you too far away
Whoever defended Hans is looking incredibly stupid with each passing day. Not to mention they insulted Magnus Carlsen without giving any thought to his stature.
Why? He's generating fake news. Go to Jozarov's chess channel and watch: "Magnus Carlsen's Stockfish Performance against Hans Niemann" -where MC plays a 'perfect' game,...vs Hans Niemann. So MC cheated vs Hans, right?
@@deelak2329 No, Magnus still was a douche. If his goal was to avoid Niemann he should have withdrawn from the start. It makes no sense to withdraw after losing when you aren't going to play him again. If he was trying to take the point from Niemann, it still doesn't make sense because it also alters the score of everyone else he played and was scheduled to play.
@@raylopez99 The difference is Magnus is an established 2850 and Hans is a 2500 player until extremely recently. I'm all for waiting for evidence but the evidence is here now. We know he is a liar and willing to cheat in cash events.
@@tommydashed4205 But I dont think it was from the start his goal. Wasnt his whole thing that he noticed that Hans was cheating because of the strangeness of his play throughout the game? I'm not saying Magnus cant be douchey, lol, far from it. But I feel like it was the act of playing him that he noticed the cheating. Or are you referring to his withdrawal after one move in the online tournament?
yes, at their level probably they just need to cheat on a few turns in order to take the match, after that is just not to fuck it up really bad to win or get the desired result
After all this analysis, has anybody offered theories on how he cheated. What method, equipment etc. would or could be used to cheat. Do the authorities at these tournaments check for these methods or hidden electronics or whatever?
Theres been people who have made small devices capable of running stockfish. One example is the guy who 3d printed a butt plug with stockfish. There have been past otb cheaters using various subtle codes to cheat. Refer to the case where a player would look to where his coach was standing in a room to know which piece to move. The small hand scanners used at otb games have also been shown to not be capable of picking up small metal objects. Humans are insanely good at bending the rules. If someone is determined enough, there is certaintly a way to do so.
Watch the interview after the Magnus win and his incoherent babbling. He reaches inside that mop on his head and clicks something behind his right ear- WTH. Why not have a device in the hair- Houdini used that to his advantage.
they can explain their actions in realtime, both after the game as well as during the game in blitz. the astounding difference of realtime analysis capability of niemann after his games, where he seemed to not even understand some of his own moves and instead blundered pieces was one of the key things that started the suspicions. now look at the hours, days, weeks, months and years of other super grandmasters doing post game analysis or commenting on their thought processes while playing online. the difference couldnt be any clearer than it is.
The thing is that a player who is a known or suspected cheater, has a significant psychological advantage. The opponents cannot trust he is not cheating in the current game, and will try to play 110% to compensate, leading to blunders. This is not to suggest he was not cheating but rather that a player who cannot be trusted, should not be allowed in the game.
Bingo! That is in fact the most logical take on Han's OTB cheating, since experts like Dr. Ken Regan say no cheating by Hans, OTB. But by acting like a 'cheat', Hans has an advantage.
Scariest thing about this whole deal, in my opinion, is that if anyone but Magnus had blown the whistle, I am not sure anything would be happening to Hans
Which is probably why no one does it unless they literally catch the person in the act.
I mean they castrated Hikaru for even saying there was concern.
So yeah big props to Magnus for taking one for the team. He knew he had to be the one to do it, and was willing to face hate online for this.
@@Kizerlk07 but he made calculated moves to minimize the hate though like winning the following championship by destroying competition and reaching 2900 in style. He knew winners will always be taken more seriously and proved that he's still somewhat above competition and hence his claims have credibility,and it's not just him being sensitive about it. The man has like 180IQ and he knows how to use it lol
Yeah. He's cheated for over EIGHT YEARS and no one has done anything. All he had to do was keep his fucking ego in check, but he thought it was a good idea to end the GOATs winning streak 😂😂
Naka and Danya are missing the pattern. Based on these first 2 games and also Bok games reviewed by Bok, the pattern is Hans gets clearly behind and (almost) losing in position, then its like flipping a switch and he blitzes out highly accurate moves to come back and win. Instead of calculating accuracy of the entire game, calculate accuracy from the point of his worst position until he wins.
That's also a sign of worse preparation. I am sure Hans cheated, but to demonstrate it you need to remove the preparation segment from the analysis.
And since the report says his accuracy was higher in moves where he toggled screens....
Check the accuracy of those moves ... they must be 100% !!!!
@@abhir7823 They don't have to be 100%, if he is using his head. All he has to do is study the situation with an engine for a few seconds and go for any line that gives him an eventual advantage, he doesn't need to play top moves.
@@annaclarafenyo8185 right. I've not seen anyone else mention this. But just knowing the top moves is a massive advantage.
@@abhir7823 he should have used a phone or a separate laptop to look not the same computer from where he is playing
The worst part is that at Sinquefield Hans looked the camera, Alejandro, Yasser, Svidler and the entire chess community right in the eye and (seemingly) *BOLD-FACED LIED* about the severity and amount of times he cheated. He apparently also lied about cheating in matches for prize money. Many good-hearted (though naïve) viewers of this emotional appeal were even swayed-- I find this unforgiveable. You can't say "it was when I was a kid!" if you lied to the entire chess world a ~month ago. Hans also refused to answer Yasser when Yasser asked who his coach was... Hans was given numerous chances at redemption by Chesscom and he just took advantage of them. Same way he took advantage of the benefit of the doubt from the entire chess community after his "emotional appeal" at Sinquefield. He's toxic for chess and has illustrated his character beyond any reasonable doubt.
and the wierdest is some Hikaru haters seem to defend Hans, they hate Hikaru for being toxic, but Hans is more toxic wtf
Hans may cheted online but i dont think in otb.. As a chess professional the person who caught cheating know the consequences so those who want carier as a chess professional wont cheat again unless someone is full
@@prathameshlotake1318 That's just wrong, cheaters usually become addicted and find it really hard to stop cheating. You don't cheat in 100 games and then randomly mature past cheating.
@@saucywoo yeah ur right you wouldn’t change that behavioral pattern randomly it would usually take a big confrontation and that might start with your admittance of mistakes and then you might make some sort of promise along with setting a long term future goal that will help you keep ur promise. Of course none of this happened to Hans so he would only stop cheating of a random occurrence.
Kind of crazy how even FIDE/Chess organizers were willing to overlook his unusual data points until Magnus decided to take a stance.
I remember early 2020 on stream Hikaru being asked if he thinks Hans will ever become a GM...Hans was a slightly above average IM at the time and Hikaru openly said he thought Hans had it in him if he worked really hard to get GM but his window to become anything close to a strong GM was gone because of his age and lack of growth. Hikaru even said that playing him never felt a challenge and compared him to likes of Jefferey, saying there was no comparison. Fast forward 2 years and when I saw Hans hit 2650, then quickly 2700 I was shocked to the point of near disbelief based on Hikarus words in 2020. No Smoke without fire generally speaking.
You are correct
Kids grow up fast and in spurts. Experts like Dr. Ken Regan say no cheating by Hans, OTB. You believe in experts or in RUclipsrs like Naka?
It's a point I've made in other comments. Strong GMs generally, especially in recent years, reveal their talent at a much earlier stage. Most 2700s became GMs at 14 or 15, not at 17.
@@raylopez99 Don't put words in Ken's mouth. His model does not determine if someone is not cheating. It only really finds obvious cheating as well as the fact that his method is public which means it can be manipulated.
@Andy Kurmann It's old news. HN himself already said he cheated twice, and not "two times" but twice in his online career. Mr. Andy "Witchhunt" Kurmann
Report speaks for itself
This comment speaks for itself.
@@gray1080 The reply speaks for itself
@@justinfoley7136 the reply to the reply speaks for itself
@@DriveandThrive this reply to a reply to a reply speaks for itself
@@dumbsimpleton207 the reply to the reply to the reply to the reply speaks for itself
He simultaneously has had the largest rise in strength while also maintaining the highest variability in his play. That seems consistent with someone cheating sometimes to avoid suspicion.
About the differences in accuracy: they updated the version of Stockfish they use at some point. If games are old enough, they would have been analyzed with an older version of Stockfish instead of the latest one, which would explain the difference in accuracy displayed in the archive versus the game review. Some games will be higher or lower than the old accuracy displayed.
Good point
this is interesting, do we know how much variability this introduces? like is is plus or minus half a percent, or like 10%?
@@lettersnstuff It's going to vary by the game. I looked at some of the games saved in my library. A draw I played against a streamer had accuracy scores of 94 and 90 with the old engine, but 84 and 82 in the new one. Some of my 99 accuracy games were bumped up to 100 while others were actually lowered to 98. One interesting game I found had 82 for my opponent and 62 for me in the old one, but 77 for me and 71 for my opponent with the new one.
One other thing I noticed is that even after analyzing with the new engine, the accuracy score displayed in the archive will still be the old one. That might confuse some people.
Not how it works Adam. Trust the experts like Dr. Ken Regan who have spent their whole life in statistics. No cheating by Hans.
Stockfish is also not the only engine. He could be using a different engine that evaluates the position based on different heuristics. Honestly, if he's software inclined he could've even made his own that just Min Max's with alpha beta pruning using his gpu. Kasparov found a way to beat these back in the 90s by acting irrationally, but if you don't know you're playing an ai it's much harder to do, even with mediocre chess ai.
Matt Parker came up with the 10 Billion Human Second Century when investigating Dream’s speedruns in minecraft a while ago, saying, if 10 billion people were each doing a complete minecraft speedrun every second, 24 hours a day for a century, one of those ten billion people would have one run as lucky as Dream’s. just because there’s not video tape evidence of the dude putting the beads in doesn’t mean there’s no evidence he cheated
It's pretty damning evidence for the public, but FIDE can't punish someone just for being an outlier.
@@inthefade That depends on how extreme an outlier the confessed cheater is.
Hans is still probably at super gm level though
@@inthefade
Yes but it will make a lot of tops players avoid palying him=so many events wont invite Hans unless he can prove he's not cheating
Because no players want to play with a cheater
@@carloscerritoslira328 Naah, not at super GM level. That dude can't analyse like an 1800!
It's not about looking odd, it's the fact he is 50+ moves in and still running at 97%+ accuracy over and over and over.
Dude's an anomaly, I am glad Magnus took the hit publicly and called this out.
@@kevinhawkshaw8784 Go public about an accusation they can only support with intuition??? And then risk their reputation? You've gotta be joking
If your opponent blunders, it is easier to find the best moves and thus having the best accuracy. Having the 97% accuracy isn't crazy when you can find one or two best moves which results in your opponent being worse and thus the other best moves will be easier to find (unless crazy computer tactic).
@@1skim567 Right? That's pretty much what Magnus finally did, and even he's gotten a ton of flack for it. One of the only reasons he's been taken seriously is because he's Magnus
I hit 98.6 % on a 30 + move game bro, like wtf and I'm barely 1580
I can’t wait for the documentaries to come out about this
Working on script now.
I love documentaries about scandals. They’re always really great.
The only real solution for future tournaments is to step up security across the board. If Hans was able to cheat otb, then even if he weren't participating the fact remains that anyone else could do it.
We need live streamed cavity scans
@@thebirdhasbeencharged I'd want a 1 hour delay on the colonoscopy cams. Might be able to undulate his large intestine to communicate moves.
@@thebirdhasbeencharged yes and make it equal across both genders because feminism!!!! 🤭
The solution is to have no live observers for Hans games (and anyone caught cheating) until they can prove themselves with consistent results. No observers - no signal going to anal beads, unless he manages a camera in a retina implant.
@@zaimnaqvi8893 stunning and brave!
Hans' silence speaks for itself.
He may be lawyering to sue.
@@boukman3668 or just freaking out seeing more evidence coming out..
@@boukman3668 Hans = Amber Heard 😗
@@boukman3668 if he sues after this report he’s gonna be robbed off every penny he made cheating online!!
@@k47-f8j he knew about this evidence. They sent it to him first.
If this incident educates the Chess world about how sophisticated cheating occurs it may be the most beneficial incident because it may bring MUCH NEEDED integrity to a game that did not realize how much it was needed.
The Chess world should have realized it sooner because it has been a million dollar game for quite a while now. For example both Caruana and Nepo got almost $500.000 for losing the world title match. That's an insane amount of money for a couple of games of chess. Every human sports that is a million (or billion) dollar industry is a magnet for cheaters. That's just the way it is.
By the way, Hans earned $18.000, just by ending 5th in the sinquefield cup, which he got invited to by cheating and if he had lost against Magnus, noone would have been the wiser as well. For every brash, loudmouth guy like Niemann, I am betting there is more than 1 that is silent and smart about it. Someone hat always end up in the middle but silently fills their pockets left and right with 10.000 here and 15.000 there.
The Chess world should count itself lucky compared to the Gaming world. It’s probably close to 50% of top Streamers in FPS who are using cheats.
I wish Hikaru would have talked about the part of the article that said they've caught FOUR of the top 100 players cheating and they've admitted to it.
Usually I hate when people exaggerate and say things are disasters when they are not, but I have to agree here. This really is a huge disaster, and I don't think any kind of cheating prevention will be entirely foolproof against cheating. I don't see a clear solution here.
Its simple - they play while completely naked and standing in front of an x-ray. If anyone complains, we've clearly found a cheater.
@@_arman_ x-ray is not enough.
Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but NO cheating prevention method that is visible/known is enough. That is why antiviruses have to be updated every so often.
Extremely small filaments could be used to transmit informations.
I’m also unsure as to how thin something has to be before being noticeably different from a bone fissure.
I’m pretty sure someone could bundle a version of stockfish small enough and specialized enough to fit on a very small chip, and work with very little memory.
On top of that, the constant exposure to x-rays (which don’t exactly work like you seem to think they do) would probably be detrimental to the players’ health.
I’m not a good chess player, nor have I cheated, yet I wouldn’t want to be submitted to constant xRays.
Finally, anyone in the public could give indications.
The closest to secure I could find was full scanner before the game, and game played in a small room surrounded by one way mirrors, preventing impact from the room. And yet, just thinking about it, I can find a few ways to defeat even that…
@@fendalynn6604 Hm... I think the trick is not finding the device but jamming any potential electronic signal in the room where their playing I'm sure this can be done
@@fendalynn6604 This is a common misconception among those who have no security experience. Sorry to burst your bubble but you are misinformed and ignorant.
Anyone that has ever maintained a competitive game server can tell you, if you actively look for cheaters, it's not all THAT hard to find them (without even going overboard and invading privacy). Just looking at the replay doesn't tell the full pictures. Some of the information that help spot cheaters:
1. The outlier moves
2. The timing
3. Active windows (switching between windows - actually not particularly difficult to know what you Toggled into)
4. Mouse movement (within a game, mouse movement is incredibly consistent AND incredibly difficult to mimic if you weren't playing naturally).
5. Background programs
>> add these (and more) information and correlate to when Hans make Engine like moves vs. when he makes lesser moves, and it would not be hard to find the trail of "possible cheating".
With thousands and thousands of games played by his peers, it would be extremely easy to spot irregularities. Repeated irregularities become harder and harder to explain away by "lucky move | I happened to study this line | my phone range | my mouse slip | I had to check bitcoin prices | whatever"
One example (not saying that it happened here, but it happened in the game I was monitoring):
Some (most) players click on (or hover over) the piece that they are expecting to move next (or in Chess, pre-move even). When a cheater checked for a move, this disrupts his natural habit. The mouse movement is VERY different from a normal move [no click and hold | no thinking time after getting back from another program]. Repeat this often enough, and the cheat becomes very obvious.
Most obvious cheats (though I doubt Hans is this stupid):
1. Have chess engine running in the background (even if the program is renamed) - check his play with program A running vs. program A not running.
2. Toggle to said program - check his play with toggle vs. without toggle
3. Mouse movement after toggle to said program - easy to check if his mouse movement correspond to constructing the current board of his game (though it's possible the board is automatically updated according to his game - this would make it harder as he wouldn't need to toggle / update as he can just have the second program always running and glance at it).
Experts like Dr. Ken Regan say no cheating by Hans, OTB.
@@raylopez99 also said he didn't cheat online in 2020 and hans was banned admitting to it in 2020.
So STFU
@@raylopez99 But Regan is a statistician, he uses so little information relative to what's available in an online game. It is hard to look at JUST the moves and claim statistical outliers (cheating) irresponsibly. I respect his research and god knows he's probably amazing in his field, but his algorithm is ultimately flawed in catching cheaters who are already high level players. Without being 100% accurate (you can look at his paper yourself), he summarized his algorithm's ability to catch cheaters as "3 moves per game, across 9 games clustered in close proximity"... what kind of GM needs 3 unnatural moves to win a game (mind you, after the initial help, the follow up is often considered a natural progression... and if you space out the cheating, your ELO moves up and the unnatural moves for your rating is now considered natural). Regan helps find cheaters, but only the most egregious ones (or ones who do not have innate Chess skill).
To statistically say Hans is cheating OTB is such a high bar to clear. Regan is of course correct to not point fingers recklessly, but I mean... can we all agree that known cheaters have higher probability to continue cheaters when compared to "random player"? If we apply such prior to his algorithm, it's possible the results differ greatly.
@@vinni522 Word salad noted, tho fact you read Regan's paper is impressive. Aside from the fact it's nearly impossible to get a receiver to allow Hans to cheat OTB, the question you should consider is this: given your methodology, how is being a cheater according to you different from being a strong player like MC? It's not. Go to Jozarov's channel and review the video "Magnus Carlsen's Stockfish Performance against Hans Niemann" - and then tell us, did MC cheat vs Hans since MC got nearly 100% correlation with an engine?
@@raylopez99 It's not one thing, it's all these things adding up.
Part of me wants to see Hans try to run with this and try to spin it as if he’s just that genius. I want to hear him be like, “I’m just built different bro.”
Same I just want him to cheat to become the world champion while everyone is trying to figure out how he is cheating.
"Chess speaks for itself. Say no more."
@@BorrowedMemories Hans cheating in plain sight is very “David Blaine”-esque. It’s like a magic trick where everyone thinks they can see everything, but can’t figure out how the card ended up in the person’s wallet. We know it’s a trick, but can’t figure out the trick. Just like we know Hans is cheating OTB now, the specific mechanism just hasn’t been discovered yet.
You won't have to wait long, it's coming.
This cheater shouldn’t be allowed into the competitive chess world again.
somebody caught cheating multiple times also has the fastest improvement. common sense speaks for itself
Bureaucracy speaks for itsself
Trust the experts not your "gut". Experts like Dr. Ken Regan say no cheating by Hans, OTB.
Right? What are the chances that a person who repeatedly cheats is also better than Fischer in his prime while others are still struggling. But Hans fans will shout “No evidence” and move on
Indeed.
@@ARS1508 MC is better than Fischer in is prime. A high school athlete broke Olympian great Jesse Owens track record a few years ago. Human progress. I don't see your point.
It's telling that Hikauru couldn't find anything suspicious in a game where Hans cheated. That means that you can't just look at a game, you need all the tools available to know whether someone cheated or not. So people saying Hans didn't cheat against Magnus couldn't possibly be able to make that call.
I wish Hans the best of luck tomorrow in the final tournament of his career.
ohhh snap!
Report speaks for itself 😎
Hans should go out with a bang. He should have about 2 meters of anal beads… prepare strange openings as white like 1. H4 and then crush his opponents with main engine lines the whole way through. Play the moves as soon as he receives the info too. Just absolutely crush EVERYONE until the tournament organizer has to remove the beads himself with his own bare hands. After they extract the beads, he should just yell “Wu-Tang!” and leave.
LMFAO
GENIUS 🤣
I dont think the measures to prevent cheaters should be concerned/dictated by anything being "costly". They just spent 83 MILL for play with magnus. Im sure they can afford a better scanner than $9.00 from amazon.
Hans’ alleged cheating appears to have 1 thing in common: only cheat at pivotal moments (tournaments, when he needs the ELO etc.)…
So his OTB alleged cheating against Magnus makes sense for the fact that it would shock the chess world and catapult his career. While riskier than online cheating the reward in his mind likely outweighed the risk.
Also given how little punishment he has gotten for being caught in the past it likely only incentivized his cheating further.
Cant wait for hans' "I didnt do it, but if i did, heres how i would have done it"
That would be a work of fiction. Nearly impossible to cheat given the level of scrutiny OTB.
@mister kluge That Stockfish GitHub but plug was huge. The elephant in the room for Hans Haters is how the he ll do you fit a receiver to accept moves in real time? They checked his ear, his shoes and scanned his whole body. A non-metallic receiver? If HN has that kind of technology, he should quit chess and sell his invention to the CIA, I'm sure they'd be interested and it would be more profitable than cheating in chess too.
I’d buy that book
Guys, don't listen to this Ray troll. He actually thinks Hans only cheated twice, and says Hans can legitimately play at 3800 level. XD
Just settling in for this one. This was the update/pairing I was waiting for after that bomb!
I think to better understand this situation you have to learn about Alan Turing. Turing having solved one of the most important code systems of the time employed a similar tactic. Purposefully losing and winning accord to a specific strategy intended not to alert people that the code has been deciphered. An interesting story and he succeeded in fooling an entire country.
Lol so many people got so mad at Magnus and thought he was out of line. With time it looks more and more like organizers weren't cracking down on cheating nearly enough, and it took a guy like him to speak up for everyone. Suddenly now all the investigations are going.
It took great courage to come forward like Magnus did and lead this charge. He knew it would be at great personal risk to his own reputation, yet he did it anyways. He could have just stayed quiet about it and went on dominating against people other than Hans and his career would have been fine. But he put his name on the line to take a stand against cheating, KNOWING how much people would just call him a “sore loser” and such. I commend Magnus for having the bravery to do what this community didn’t want to do, but needed to do.
Honestly, we need more people like Magnus. It is scary to imagine what would happen (obviously nothing) if ANYONE other than him spoke up. They would be PUBLICALLY HANGED for it.
Magnus yet again proves his alpha-chaddery by standing up along for what is right and facing the shitstorm of critics who want to bury their heads in the sand
Well to be fair, Magnus already _had_ this information, but he didn't disclose it for a month...
is everyone just supposed to 'take his word for it'? I think not.
In the end though, he's played it well, because he allowed the drama to fester for a month, bringing heaps of media attention in the process...
Magzy playing 4D chess in this instance:
Although you _still_ can't prove he cheated at Sinquefield, the move here is obvious:
KEEP inviting him to tournaments, only crank up the cheat detection to 11 in the ones where he's present (make it the same for everyone, so as to avoid any hints of favoritism), and either catch him in the act, or scare him into ceasing his cheating, in which case his rating and results will plummet, and everyone will _know_ why.
Magnus has laid the groundwork, and this is the way forward.
@@johnbowman3630 I think you DO take his word that something is suspicious, if he's never done it before. And Magnus' word is the LEAST important reason I believe he is guilty.
All Hans needed to do was turn off stockfish when he played Magnus over the board. Now it's full-blown. lol. His silence over this matter clearly speaks for itself
i know right? he's looking more guilty as days pass by with no response yet
Addiction 2 strong, you do exactly what gives the best short-term dopamine hit
If cheating, especially in fast paced games, I guess you’ll pick the moves you instantly understand the tactics of. If you don’t instantly understand an AI suggestion, you’ll probably pick the next move, unless it says there’s only one move that will keep, or give the advantage. The report said he generally played better when toggling, didn’t it? If I was Hans I’d get cold sweat running down my back when I read that.
Glad to see you here Cuckoo. And yes, Hans is a cheater, and should be banned.
People arguing it's "only" online would say that athletes getting caught using steroids is ok as long as it's only during practice. 🤷
Why would you toggle at all during blitz? Makes 0 sense
Interesting that he “stopped” cheating online around the time his otb rating skyrocketed. Maybe he started using his newly developed otb cheating method online
I would assume the window toggling is a big part of the evidence. If so everyone has to realize that this can easily be circumvented by having a second PC. If they don't catch Hans now, they should know they will no longer have this data moving forward.
Haru, you have to guess the moves before he makes them to get a better sense. after the move it makes sense, but try to guess pre-move and perhaps the cheating will be more clear.
EXACTLY
I don't like that we keep saying "likely to have cheated". He confessed, just privately 😅
I don't know crap about chess but I've been following this with great interest. That being said...it ain't looking good for Hans
Hansfish's only competition is alpha zero.
I said 2 weeks ago, he would eventually get caught and, possible charges of fraud would be levied against him, for taking prize money, while knowingly and willfully cheating.
I'm a mix of annoyed and amused that I've actually read the entire report, and I look at Twitter and it's just Hans simps replying to Magnus simps "We have found no evidence of OTB blah blah" as if they are winning the argument, while leaving out 20 pages of Hans being sus, a liar, devious, an aberration, a serial cheater, and a prize money theif.
Yeah, the worst part is how clearly the report doesn't even say that. It explains why such evidence is basically impossible after the fact, and that for that reason they cannot suggest or imply any conclusion regardless of how 'interesting' some of the statistical aberrations are. It's basically lawyerspeak for "I'm not saying, I'm just sayin'."
@@LowbrowDeluxe Hans admitted this, so they don't need to go further
People just want to be right.
The power of denial is the root of all.
If you have a Math test on which you answer all 98 questions out of 100 but cheat on the last 2 questions. You are a cheater nonetheless. There is no 'more-cheater' or 'less-cheater'. RIP Niemann's chess career.
Totally agree with you, so for all the cheaters out there who read the comment, just keep cheating, it literally doesn't matter if you only did it once then stop and change your behavior, you are basically equal to hans, and if your career ended, go find another job and cheat again,you already branded as cheater anyway,like even if you stop, you still a cheater. If you have family, first of all shame on you, secondly just cheat from your significant other, it really doesn't matter, you already cheat on your career, again you are a branded cheater, that means you are also a cheater in relationships. For all the cheaters out there its in fact stupid of you if you stop, its just logical.
And Daniel went out of his way to be exceedingly fair to Hans. So messed up
I see it normal.
Remember that all of these people are friends.
At the time, from Dany's perspective It's just a teen doing something stupid. You don't want to ruin his entire life over it.
Also, Hans main source of income is streaming chess on twitch via his chesscom account. Banning him from the platform would have been to harsh at that point.
@@boukman3668 people's lives have been ruined by much less why protect one person from their actions when no one else gets that opportunity
@@boukman3668 cheating is cheating nobody gets special treatment
@@coocluckclanmusic Im not saying it was ok. Im saying that I Understand why he did it.
@@boukman3668 holy cow, you understand why he cheat? to get money? or fame? or rating? a full disrespect to hard working kids out there that genuinely want to play world chess championship. You just kill the game and the grind that they doing.
If Hans' otb performance is legit, then he's one of the greatest players of all time. But if that's true, why would he need to cheat online?
exactly. makes no sense whatsoever.
Well it was in the past but now he has become 🐐
Very very good point @Ben Kelly
I know and how he gets a free win from Magnus resignation and still doesn't even make the finals in the tournament……come on man
The hasnt cheated online since 2020. I was thinking when the report came out it will show that Hans cheated in 2022 online. But all the report did was just show how extensive Hans cheating was in the past which he already admitted to. So I don't see the big deal here. The REPORT is also offering Hans to play on Chesscom again. That is how much they trust he isn't cheating anymore. The report said they only banned him so they can review this games in light of the recent scandal.
Hans is an outlier in every analysis except in chess analysis where he absolutely sounds like he doesn’t know wtf he is taking about. No outlier there.
Quick all Hansfish defenders erase all your comments. Humiliation is imminent.
@bob ross "oh no! a hateful comment from an internet stranger, I'm literally crying and shaking rn. Please pity and defend me from bullies" - Hans (according to defenders)
@Bradd Shock Music 2 years? really? If it was 5-10 years maybe it's more excusable, but 2 years is too recent to suddenly change how act and feel about certain actions.
@Bradd Shock Music Yes Billy, I promise Santa will come tonight. Just goto sleep.
@Bradd Shock Music then tell Hans to respond to Magnus, instead of being silent lmao..... cause the "silence" is really starting to speak for itself
The problem for hans now is that he can't completely stop cheating all of a sudden (assuming that he had been doing it all along), which would be very obvious because the difference in quality of play between a 2400 and 2700 can easily be picked up. Now that the focus on hans is so immense and assuming he'll continue to cheat to stay consistent, this is the best time to catch him in the act. Heads up to the US championship organisers.
Nah, he can stop and his Stan will say that is bcs of the "stress and pressure"
@@normalguy5583 HN played well after the MC win as well. Experts like Dr. Ken Regan say no cheating by Hans, OTB. You believe in science or RUclipsrs trying to generate news?
@@raylopez99 do I believe in outdated methods that haven't caught known cheaters or do I believe in up to date ones? That's the real question.
you have to look at cheaters the same way you look at drug addicts, they are sick and need help.
He is 2550-2650 without cheating as well.
Hans played for Norway in 2020. can this even get better at this point?
Hans was also an ambassador for the Play Magnus Group.
@@amagilly oh so it gets even better :-D
Also, to set the record straight, Hans actually played for Norway Gnomes on that Pro Chess League event! I smell that the Hans's secrets were revealed to Magnus through that route.
I love how Hikaru kept reading the results of the findings earlier apparently not identifying to pattern that if it listed a series of games it found that everyone in that series was indicated as possibly exploited or compromised. I mean Hans either is going all in with the engine usage, or his style of play just somehow is so bizarre it provokes false positives from modern cutting edge cheat detection methods. Either way, it was absurd to continue hearing him lost every instance. Cringe. Here to, asking how many of this GMs games may have been suspicious… Um. All of them my guy. All of them… 🤦♀️
How does anyone play against Hans after this? Just having Hans as an opponent messes up a players psychology
Really looking forward to the fireworks at the US championship
Olympians do it all the time. Chess players shouldn't be cry babies.
@@2DarkHorizon which Olympians? What are you talking about? If deciding not to play against a known cheater is being a cry baby according to you, then good for you for not being a cry baby. I would choose to be a cry baby if I was an elite player
I've read the whole report and Chesscom says the year 2020 was the time he cheated on their site. I might be missing something though.
Now I'm waiting for the C squared podcast take on this
There should be enough integrity among top GM's that they don't need cheating measures. If someone is caught the penalties should be severe, like paying the entire prize pool to the tournament organizers or even jail time. It's theft, ruins the integrity of the game, and minimizes all the effort everyone involved in the tournament put into it.
what did Hans expect when doing it so much, and then doing this against MAGNUS of all people💀
Assuming most of those "likely cheated games" cheats were actually used I assume Hans just thought he was untouchable at that point. That was 7 years? Of consistently cheating without getting caught. At that point anyone would feel like a god of hiding cheats.
“While that game [Carslen vs Niemann at the Sinquefield Cup] was a high-quality performance by black, there is nothing in it that suggested extraordinary degrees of prowess or insight beyond what a young talented grandmaster could find”
- GM Jonathan Rowson
@@jprw Hans isn’t a young talented GM though. He’s an IM that cheated his way to being a GM, as we’ve seen now.
@@jprw GM? 🤮🤣
@@danielbrown001 GM of cheating, level 100
This is an opportunity for Chess to step up: play naked in a battlebots cage!
staying up all night for this juicy reveal, greetings from czechia
You do realize that HN is innocent of OTB cheating, right? Online is a different story.
@@raylopez99 Not yet proven guilty is far different than innocent.
Guys, don't listen to this Ray troll. He actually thinks Hans only cheated twice, and says Hans can legitimately play at 3800 level. XD
@@raylopez99 Why does he need to cheat online if he can play at that level offline? Busted! 🤡
TSA level full body xray scans with review by opposing player representatives. Not sure what else would give total confidence at this point.
Hans showed up today at US Chess championships and when introduced walked up and picked up a “stuffed shark toy/plushy” from the table (like other players). Not sure if that was before or after the WSJ article.
Hans Moke Niemann should be ( banned ) from playing in the US Chess Championship... Hans Moke Niemann is ( addicted ) to cheating in Chess Online and on the board... The great game of Chess is growing again...; "Why let one man ruin it for ( ALL ) ?" * There is ( NO ) place for cheating in Chess..., Online or on the board. The "Wall Street Journal" article was damning for Hans Moke Niemann and cheating in Chess... " Semper Fi " Mike in Montana :)
@@seanobrien2306 what’s with the parentheses?
@@kylejohnson8447 Hi Kyle..., Because I want to and my followers want me to ( emphasis or emphasize ) my meaning or feelings on the subject or topic. Thank you for the question, and I am sorry the ( emphasis or emphasize ) bothers you... I don't ( criticize ) your comments... " Semper Fi " Mike in Montana P.S.: "You are always ( Welcome ) in Montana." Mike :)
@@seanobrien2306 you are ( very ) strange.
The most damning sign is that it's not just "Hans top right" when it comes to results, it's also "Hans bottom left" when it comes to overall move quality and consistency
All the twelve year olds realize they can be found out
The full 72-page report was released on chessdot's blog a few hours ago.
I hope there will be the consequences that this cheater requires to face.
I wonder if this is also a problem of timing/pattern recognition. Like if Hans starts getting a losing position and then hans loads up his engine and starts utilising moves provided by that instead suddenly spiking up his elo or if he makes intentional mistakes every so often to look "innocent" or if his response speeds change.
Like making mistakes in obvious positions and making brilliant plays in losing positions sort of thing.
Edit- just got to 50 mins in yup...sounds like something similar is suspected.
Yep. My point exactly.
The accuracy in the archived games are probably using the older version of stockfish, wich would explain the difference in accuracy when u open the game up again
It's cloud based and the accuracies are ever changing. if it gets analyzed deeper by someone else
Mark my work hans will be the only person to reach 3800 elo.
"The man the myth the legend"
And legally too. He's strong, even when not cheating.
The machine.
@@raylopez99 This dog actually thinks humans can reach 3800 elo. 🤡🤣
I'm a hans stan
Edit: joke
After a couple more updates he'll reach 4000 no doubt.
Imagine how many total elo points are misplaced.
like when pro s play on alts acc and make me be tilted and some say it dose not matter?sure bu,they are using stochfish everytime they wanna play wired line and give slack to anyone beating them because they represent the establesment?
I believe Hans' rise is unprecedented in terms of time, but very good but not tops based on numbers of games.
Kudos to Magnus for being the whistleblower….strong backbone to place integrity of the game above one’s own reputation.
Danya + Hikaru the chess streaming dream team.
the reason he doesn't blow Naroditsky off the board is because Naroditsky is really good so even if someone is cheating he's going to hang in there
To blow Naroditsky off the board it would require him to cheat on every move, which would make cheating very obvious.
Magnus wanted to catch hans now he is catching all the GM's
Call the Brazilian guy Hikaru
Guys, we are looking at a historical meltdown in the chess world right here. Many of the tournaments Hans' cheated in were also about money; and from a perspective of beting (ladbrooks, bet24, etc.,) this too is terrible, because it means someone may have won money they shouldn't have, or more likely LOST money they shouldn't have.
This is a complete NIGHTMARE!
pleasee go to court we need chess version of depp vs amber
Lmao
Nobody:
GM Hikaru: Lets review these GEEMS
The neimen pad down, is when they do a cavity search
As someone said, Hans is on the hot seat, and sweating beads now...
My opinion is obvious, hans doesn't use Stockfish or any other strong engine, but he uses engine which creates traps which humans most likely fall in, that's why his opponents lose games and his move is considered to be 'mistake' or 'inaccuracy'.
You actually seriously believe he only cheated twice? 🤡
I, in fact, am the greatest outlier in the history of chess.
@@crabguy34 exactly
Assuming you would like a step by step guide on how to fly:
1. Start by standing up straight with your feet shoulder width apart.
2. Bend at the knees and lower your body down into a squatting position.
3. Place your hands on the ground in front of you and shift your weight onto your hands.
4. Kick your feet up off the ground and into the air.
5. As you are kicking your feet up, use your arms to help lift your body up off the ground.
6. Once you are airborne, start flapping your arms up and down to keep yourself aloft.
7. Use your legs to help steer yourself in the direction you want to go.
8. To land, simply reverse the process by slowly lowering your body down to the ground and touching down with your feet first.
As a western culture teenager ... I expect Hans to say "its a prank bro" anytime now.
You have to accept that Hans is the GOAT his rating is somewhere between 2600-3500 no wonder poor Magnus cannot compete. Shame more top players cannot follow Magus example and just boycott this arrogant buffoon. He has destroyed chess possibly forever.
I began cheating after I knew Hans did it. No joke
All they need to do is do lie detector tests like they do in fishing tournaments.
the report itself is not a disaster for chess. It's the fact that it's so easy to cheat
If you wanted to cheat, why not use a second computer instead of toggling between windows on the one computer?
I wondered the same thing.
cheaters usually are morons
He probably didn't know the website kept track of that
thats why some bigger online tourneys use face cam... to see if people try to look elsewhere...
It's ridiculously obvious if he's turning 25-30 degree to the side and type on another keyboard/mouse
Biggest mistake Hans did was messing with Magnus.
I had no idea chess was ok with cheating as long as it is online 😂 6 months penalties instead of perma bans is laughable 😂 you expect a cheater to go up the ranks with an engine and then go to the middle of the people play like an idiot? They have to go all the way. But the principle is, it's a matter of trust, if you break it even if it's online, you're a dirty cheater for ever 🤷♂️
If you cheated pre 14 or something it's possible it's different
I bet he’s making sure that he’s always slightly on the plus side if he’s white or on the negative side if he’s black and not making it you too far away
The beads gambit…just sacrifice your whole career. 😂😂😂
Whoever defended Hans is looking incredibly stupid with each passing day. Not to mention they insulted Magnus Carlsen without giving any thought to his stature.
I would have loved if nothing of this came to light just to see how far Hans could go..
He said he would be invincible after his win against magzy
Well, just the fact he is playing against these top players is far enough.
Hans would peak at 3000
Basically you are rooting for a cheater
chess would really be in ruins if that happened
Hikaru making the sounds of Mike Myers character in SNL makes me very verklempt!
Honestly the chess world owes Hikaru a big fat, sweet, succulent apology.
And Magnus?
Why? He's generating fake news. Go to Jozarov's chess channel and watch: "Magnus Carlsen's Stockfish Performance against Hans Niemann" -where MC plays a 'perfect' game,...vs Hans Niemann. So MC cheated vs Hans, right?
@@deelak2329 No, Magnus still was a douche. If his goal was to avoid Niemann he should have withdrawn from the start. It makes no sense to withdraw after losing when you aren't going to play him again. If he was trying to take the point from Niemann, it still doesn't make sense because it also alters the score of everyone else he played and was scheduled to play.
@@raylopez99 The difference is Magnus is an established 2850 and Hans is a 2500 player until extremely recently. I'm all for waiting for evidence but the evidence is here now. We know he is a liar and willing to cheat in cash events.
@@tommydashed4205 But I dont think it was from the start his goal. Wasnt his whole thing that he noticed that Hans was cheating because of the strangeness of his play throughout the game? I'm not saying Magnus cant be douchey, lol, far from it. But I feel like it was the act of playing him that he noticed the cheating. Or are you referring to his withdrawal after one move in the online tournament?
14:10 evil laugh 😈
He can probably make wierd moves if he knows he will win by cheating. So it’s not always going to be he makes some crazy amazing move
And he’s probably looking ahead or has someone looking ahead in the engine also
And he’s probably looking ahead or has someone looking ahead in the engine also
So it isn’t nessecarily that there is a great move he could play a move because he knows there is a place to use the engine to win
Like maybe the tactic works engine says good move
yes, at their level probably they just need to cheat on a few turns in order to take the match, after that is just not to fuck it up really bad to win or get the desired result
I beat 2300 master computer today. Took 2650 GM computer to about 30 moves! Awesome day.
After all this analysis, has anybody offered theories on how he cheated. What method, equipment etc. would or could be used to cheat. Do the authorities at these tournaments check for these methods or hidden electronics or whatever?
Theres been people who have made small devices capable of running stockfish. One example is the guy who 3d printed a butt plug with stockfish. There have been past otb cheaters using various subtle codes to cheat. Refer to the case where a player would look to where his coach was standing in a room to know which piece to move. The small hand scanners used at otb games have also been shown to not be capable of picking up small metal objects. Humans are insanely good at bending the rules. If someone is determined enough, there is certaintly a way to do so.
@@danielchen143 how do you input info into anal stockfish? Do you squeeze your sphincter a certain number of times?
The beads
Watch the interview after the Magnus win and his incoherent babbling.
He reaches inside that mop on his head and clicks something behind his right ear- WTH.
Why not have a device in the hair- Houdini used that to his advantage.
Some piece of technology up the pooper
Saint Louis having paper hands in all this
How can I be sure that not all grandmasters cheat?
You can't
If they did, Hans' data wouldnt look so strange
they can explain their actions in realtime, both after the game as well as during the game in blitz. the astounding difference of realtime analysis capability of niemann after his games, where he seemed to not even understand some of his own moves and instead blundered pieces was one of the key things that started the suspicions.
now look at the hours, days, weeks, months and years of other super grandmasters doing post game analysis or commenting on their thought processes while playing online. the difference couldnt be any clearer than it is.
Because they can explain their fucking moves. Unlike a certain Hans. 🙄
@@jaideepshekhar4621 so the chess doesnt speak for itself?
In neroditskys first game why does Hans move his king to third rank for no reason you’d think go to the corner
The thing is that a player who is a known or suspected cheater, has a significant psychological advantage. The opponents cannot trust he is not cheating in the current game, and will try to play 110% to compensate, leading to blunders. This is not to suggest he was not cheating but rather that a player who cannot be trusted, should not be allowed in the game.
Bingo! That is in fact the most logical take on Han's OTB cheating, since experts like Dr. Ken Regan say no cheating by Hans, OTB. But by acting like a 'cheat', Hans has an advantage.
That's why I think Magnus played so poorly
The magnus spoke for his chess
Hans future checkers champ
Correction: Hans is future Fishy checkers champion of the universe 🏆
Checkers is a solved game
Cheaters will now use a secondary VPN computer for cheat suggestions.
Didn't Hans say that he cheated at 16-17 years old to pay his rent? I mean he already said to us that he cheated in prize money tournament.
He said that the only time he cheated in a money tournament was when he was 12
No he said he never cheated in prize money tournament in the interview