Affordable Tool for Mirror Surface Finish! WW249
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- Mirror surface finishes are tough to achieve because of the multitude of factors that come into play. As a layman, I'm trying my best to get acquainted with the subject from a scientific standpoint. We found a tool called the YG-1, that has given us the closest to mirror finish that we've gotten yet! No only is the YG-1 extremely affordable, you don't need a distributor to get it. Let's compare two different cuts and test the Ra on a profilometer. Finally, we'll look at the YG-1 cut under the microscope so we can try to understand the physical manifestation of speeds and feeds!
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always the greatest respect for someone who can geek out on their craft with such enthusiasm!
I would have liked to see the cutting edges of both tools compared under the microscope, maybe next time
Yes. And better yet, let's see them after doing identical 100 cuts.
@Porter Brendan don’t do that and no we don’t care
@Ulises Kelvin just don’t hack mine ok guys
I've been extremely impressed with the performance/value of the YG1 V7A plus 6 flute end mills. Performance is as good as end mills costing twice as much.
When I was putting together my home shop, I started off with YG1 because they were affordable and not made in China. I get excellent surface finishes with their HSS endmills in aluminum, not to mention the cutting power and chatter are greatly reduced compared to no-name or chinese brands. I also exclusively used YG1 Alu-Power at my old job on Maho CNC machines cutting 6061 all day long. Our 3/4" endmill lasted over a year of 40 hour work weeks running 3500 rpm, Valcool, and averaging 50 ipm.
I've been using these lately as well. They are fantastic. The YG-1 USA headquarters is only about half an hour from me.
the irregularities look to be cyclic, it could be due to the spindle servo, you command a constant speed and when you enter cut the servo ramps up the power and might "overshoot" then compensate but be slightly too slow ramp up power again etc... just a guess ;-)
aka control loop oscillation
I wonder if theres any sort of way to tune that out or are you just stuck upgrading to a beefier machine
@@anonymic79 I'm with anonymic79
on this. So what Lukas Foglar is saying is basically torque ripple in the spindle? Or is it something else? You'd think just the inertia of the spinning mass and the rigidity would prevent those kind of accelerations, but I could be wrong.
Agree with anonymic79--the marks must be chip recutting. No way the servo has enough power to change the spindle speed that quickly.
If the speed came from the spindle accelerating and decelerating, this should be audible in 3:03-3:10 then. At this feedrate, this should correspond to a harmonics frequency of about 90Hz. Could someone just do a fourier transform of the sound from 3:03 until 3:10? Too bad i dont have access to matlab right now.
The E5E88 Series cutters from YG-1 have lapped edges. If you compare them with a standard carbide tool under a microscope, they are like chalk and cheese. And they are lethal. My hands have healed now.
Where do you get these? I can't find any sources in the US for these. Most all of the documents I find on them are written in Korean as well.
@@janderson2375- sorry I'm in the UK, so I can get them from Cutwel.co.uk but I know they aren't allowed to sell outside of their UK sales territory. Perhaps your local Korloy rep can get them - they may have the YG-1 franchise as well as Korloy, both Korean.
@@murrayedington Good to know, thanks. I'll reach out to my Korloy rep.
Fascinating to see under a microscope what the cuts look like. I love it!! The very first thing I saw when you showed the scoped picture was the anomalies. I hope you do a follow up video explaining what causes that or at least your theories. Thanks for the videos!
I have been using Alu-Power end mills for maybe 8 or more years and convinced my shop that I work for to run them about 5 years ago. Love them and a great price.
They make a great V7 for hard to machine metals that's awesome also.
Hey John nice video😊
In our toolshop we only use yg1.
Also the endmills for hardmilling are amazing.
Best regards from Switzerland.
They are great bang-for-buck. We test tools from time to time against those we've found to be real performers; typically offerings from Union Tool, Moldino (Hitachi-Mits) and NS Tool. YG always fares well, and Imco also makes a really nice low cost tool for hard milling. Well worth a try IMO.
It's amazing how much you go into detail and what kind of tests you run. I can't imagine that i would learn nearly as much in school.
Much prefer this channel over many other CNC's out there. Much better teacher!
SFM can make a big difference, while the tool diameter may not change the surface finish (on light finish passes), the lower sfm especially at that low of a feed rate in a material that soft could have a very pronounced effect, I'd be interested to see this again with each tool running the same sfm, instead of the same rpm.
I use the YG1 everyday in the shop and I can say this the endmill I use the most. You can do just about anything with it on aluminum. The hardest I've pushed it was a 1.5 depth of cut, 1/8 step over, 8k rpm and 100imp in the HAAS VF2ss I work on. Absolutely amazing.
Did you ever get the chance of comparing it with endmills from maritool that @kalpay swears on? Or swiftcarb (frontlinefab)?
In our shop we use mostly YG and IMCO tooling. I haven't been able to get a wide variety to test on.
my guess on the inconsistency in the feed marks would be from chip evacuation causing the cutter to slightly chatter from material getting in the way of the cutter and the surface.
main reason for thinking this is because the offset lines are not parallel with the consistent ones but the parallel lines still exist in equal spacings among what I assume are marks from the thin chips + climb milling pulling those chips back along the surface.
Love this stuff. It's good to hear you break down the physics of the cut. Hope all's well out there in Zanesville!
I can attest those YG-1 Alupower endmills are absolutely the best, They are mirror finished endmills and cut like butter.
Cool! Unfortunately my work place likes to sand away the machines surface finish
980 sfm vs 1309 sfm
I mean...come on...a CNC channel couldn't come up with a 1/2" endmill for a fair comparison?
Or another non-coated cutter..... So much wrong with this "explanation". But, I do agree the YG cutter demonstrated is a nice cutter.
Great topic. I'm slightly obsessed with having a mirror finish and definitely look forward to trying out one of these end mills.
Also.., Try indexable cutters with korley inserts on aluminum. For end mills we just switched away from yg to a better product half the price. Use lots of coolant so you don’t chop them up.
@@glennedward2201 thanks I appreciate the advice. I'll definitely look into those.
@@alexbarnett8541 Mirror side milling finish?? What do your prints specify as 'acceptable'? Chasing finishes can get extremely expensive. Sometimes it's good to go with, "good enough".
@@zaknefain100I was making injection molds when I wrote that. Really only cavities and cores required a polished finish. I agree chasing finishes is expensive and hurts productivity.
Hi John. Here is a suggestion: it looks like you are using a helical Zrn coated endmill for the first test. It doesn't have to be helical though, any coated tool will have the same effect. In speaking to tooling vendors, Zrn coatings are awesome for adding lubricity and longevity to the tool. However, on a microscopic scale, the coating dulls the cutting edge, making the surfacing finish not be as good. A more apples to apples comparison would be to take the same YG1 tool and compare it to a 45 degree uncoated endmill from helical (or any other vendor) to see the real difference. A higher helix leaves better finishes, which is why I think a 45 degree is best. Using a 37 degree or so is better for roughing applications because of the more solid core. Would love to see you expand your test. Good work
Would love to see what surface you get from that tool in the Haas
Those have been my goto emdmill for aluminum for about five years, and they cut fantastic in a Haas, try one, you will not be dissapointed only impressed.
I would actually love to see a difference between his Haas TM3P and the Tormach's
@@TroubledTimes2024 the machine I have access to has like a thousandth of run-out in the spindle so I doubt I would get the same results
@@joshuawentworth7426 Obviously it wont fix a bad spindle but you would still see an, improvement. A quieter cut being one of them besides a superior finish. Just try one next time you need a cutter.
@@joshuawentworth7426 I understand that "have acces to" =/= "my machine" but have you thought about regrinding spindle taper?
I feel tool diameter does make a difference but I feel the real gain here is the coating. Thanks for the info on where to buy them, people should support the direct buy companies (further investigation this is not a direct purchase but purchased directly online). I also feel the cause for the erratic cutting is caused buy the lack of rigidity and power of the particular machine. You are correct in saying that a 1/4 or smaller tool is better in those machines due to the rigidity and power of them. I feel they are a good hobbyist machine, nothing more.
It has plenty of power, it's only a 1" axial DOC/10 thou radial DOC.
@@xenonrampower is a loosely used term. power is a measure of hp and torque. as i said i feel the real difference is the coating. i get better results with that type of coating on the same size tool coated an uncoated. i agree with a few of the others that have stated the irregular cut pattern is the type of motor.
Been running these for a couple of years now, you should see the finish in a Haas with a heat shrink holder at 15K RPM! The edges also seem to last a lot longer than some of the other tools on the market and usually the core is thicker than a comparable endmill so they perform much better in the extended length versions. The cyclical variations in the surface finish remind me of the cnc converted bench top machine I have in my basement. Prior to installing AC servos, the stepper motors would leave a finish like this when "micro-stepping" between motor poles. After AC servos, the irregularities went away, and I do have a Tormach 770 head mounted on the machine.
Just barely got a microscope I can’t wait to put some of my machines parts under it! Thanks for the great video!
YG-1 puts a great polish on their tools they probably do a 2 or 3 part grind , rough, semi and polish, the polish really helps get a grate surface finish on your cut, Renzetti has showed this many times. Great video this it felt scientific, I love the look into the little details of these things.
YG also sells a coated version of that end mill that dramatically improves tool life.
If you go to EMUGE they make a Polishing 6 flute carbide end mill. Designed for 3 edges cut, 3 polish (rub or as they say pressure) for aluminium, brass, and copper. I am not sure if these require higher levels of rigidity from your machine, tool holder, part clamping? Along with the stated correct speeds and feeds based on what the project is.
YG-1 is around for many years as a supplier for resellers. often labeled as their 'own' generic brand, e.g. hoffmann and their garant/holex
John & Crew. You kinda stole my thunder here, but point I want to make is that certain mfgs can make a tool that just puts down a finish that just blows you away. I have had even cheap chinese tooling produce remarkable finishes with certain materials. The job of a good machinist is trying new tooling and see what you get.... Every machine is different, as is the tooling.
I've been using these for about 6 months now. They are awesome!
I love YG they put so much money back into there product line. i think my rep said 75% of all profit goes back into RandD
Try a YG HPC AluPower they do amazing floor finishing and do a very steep ramp angle on a haas
i think 30$ affordable when the tool give much more value to the customer back, in comparison to the competition
Have you used their taps?
@@travistucker7317 i have to tap out on this one
@@hyperhektor7733 stick with your emuge or whatever you're using
@@travistucker7317 Yes they are on par with everyone else but can get them a little cheaper most of the time
Hey John, if you're never tried one, I would highly recommend giving the ECAI-B-3 line of Iscar end mills a try. I've used many different brands and flavors of end mill for aluminum, and have yet to find anything that can produce as good a surface finish. The only drawback to them is they are not available in many sizes, and no metrics at all.
yayyyyy new video from Johnny!
Awesome! I used to use YG-1 Alumapowers on my Taig because they're so sharp that they drop the amount of horsepower needed (which is pretty important on a Taig!) It's definitely one of those endmills you can't grab by the flutes though :P
Lot of usefull info here John. Thanks.
Frickin awesome video Into the weeds! Just enough to get me tinkering and thinking more. I've used the YG1 HSS on that was dirt cheap and great for leaning setup booboos. Very excited to hear you can get them directly from YG no sales account hubub!
Been using these for years. Love them for AL and Plastic
I use a bunch of YG tooling, it works very nice, I have a bunch of 2 flutes in hss and carbide. Both give really nice finishes
Helix angle can make a big difference as well.
imco tooling is the absolute best if you can afford it. we dont do much with aluminum but their streaker series is incredible.
for low carbon steels the enduro m525 are fantastic with a .030 corner radius
half inch tooling in a haas vf3 their feeds and speeds make for a good starting point too.
got a school assigment, i have to explain how milling machines operate and i think i learnt some from this video, thanks.
Grateful for the time. Learning a lot from this channel!
Great finish and finish inspection tool.
Thank you, Lance & Patrick.
5:55 some interesting 'S' shaped marks on the RH end of the YG-1 sample
was also curious about those. i wonder if they are a product of the x axis motion? they look so uniform
Side note: Aren't the tools that Tormach sells made by YG-1??
Great video, great information, but I’d have like to have seen the same surface speed.
me to
also
Be careful with these glass scales. Check them with a gauge block! I had some that looked just like yours and they were almost 10% off.
I would love to see you guys do a test of the blueswarf milling system!
The heavier the machine the better. On my Haas VF3, I used a heavy cemented carbide lathe cutter, 3/4"... welded to a 3/4" shank, and the single cutter, as a fly cutter gave me mirror finishes. It could do a 6" wide piece of stock and was a cheap tool to produce!
Could be harmonics in the system. Make a few blanks that are as identical as possible, then run the test. If it is always in the same locations on all the parts, then theres a harmonics issue. If the locations vary from part to part, I would guess its more of a electronics feedback control issue.
Issue should be in quotes. Those parts are certainly good enough for 99+% of designs
Great stuff. Thank you.
Measure the distance between the irregularity clusters, calculate the frequency of the cluster and it's repetition frequency from that (=> linear tool speed) and look for those frequencies in the audio you captured during recording. Might give you a clue.
So, the rotation of the cutting tool, in order to maximize efficency, has to be properly geared to the advancement of it into the work being machined.
Hi, very good and informative video, however, would like to see the tool at the same cutting speed rather than RPM... Higher cutting speed will introduce more heat to the cut and definitely influence the result IMHO.
It strikes me that choosing a number of flutes and a feed per rotation that had a very high least common multiple might make the finish better. maybe?
This is suprising as my local distributer sent me some yg1 to compare to the helical long reach tools that we love and it was such a disappointment. Yg1 wants to send us more but the boss thinks its just a waste of time since there last ones were so terrible. I mean it cut but the finish when measures on our sj-210 was nowhere near the helical... so disappointing
Looks like harmonics and run out of the spindle. What was the cut 3/4 tho? Or a little over that?
fun fact - many "dull" metal surfaces are mirrors under thermal wavelengths (you can see your reflection on a rough copper sheet thru thermal camera)
hmm climb milling? backlash issues?
For a true apples to apples comparison of the two bits, you could've ran the larger, half inch, bit at 75% of the rotational speed of the smaller, 3/8" bit. Basic math for linear speed of the two shows that the smaller is 75% the speed of the larger at the same rpm at the cutting edge.
Also, Ra only tells you one part of the puzzle, you also need highest and lowest points, the linear distance between the two, and angles between those points, to understand the reflectivity of the piece. The higher the deviation of the peaks and valleys, given a constant linear distance, changes the angle at which light reflects; the more consistent flatness, the better, which is why the 'choppiness' of the peaks and valleys give poor reflectivity. Of course this is only going on one axis, not a plane, and that assumes the plane itself is flat.This also assumes consistency of the peaks and valleys, say if some are taller and/or deeper, you'll get different reflections; which also shows why average is flawed, average doesn't show the inconsistency, which also introduces the need for more datapoints, like medians, mode, and range, etc. But then the next part, the scale of the surface deviations. Say you have a part with deviations in the nm scale but isn't reflective, but your μm Ra scale's readings say it should be reflective based on correlation to readings from other tested pieces that are reflective; this is where scale is important.
There's a lot more to this than just measuring an average. In a true scientific study, you'd want to track every possible variable in every piece of the process, but that's not practical for actual work, and has diminishing returns after some point.
Personally, I think chasing high mirror surfaces with cutting tools is a waste of time and money in the long run. If you really need a mirror surface, have the piece go through grinding and polishing operations for that surface. Cutting will never get you the surface that grinding and polishing can give you.
YG-1 is almost all the tools I'm using. They are decent tool.
Your SFM was different between cutters and aside from the diameter, the 3/8" appears to be ZrN coated. Not saying the finish wasn't good, it was actually very good. Just saying there are more factors at play here...
Ahh the more you know the more you find out you don't know. :-) We now need a slow mo camera to determine what those extra lines were.
it probably the harmonics of the control loop keeping speed & position.
John, You should do a vid on roughing aluminum. Try out the YG-1 Speed Freek #66515PC
This tool is a Beast and loves to go fast! A+ on the AluPower EMs. Love them.
mind you the theorical Rz is lower the higher the diameter of the tool is relative to the same Fz
I was able to get a 16 surface finish facing UHMW with a 1/2" alu power at 8k rpms.
Interesting. Shouldn't those scallops have a slight angle due to the helix angle?
Irregularities in the spacing may be due to tool design. As I understand it the flutes are often made very slightly asymmetric to help avoid resonances.
Nice one John!
Looking at the two samples there appear to be more geometrics (waviness and oscillations) in the super 1/2" end mill finished surface. Maybe this is because the surface is more reflective and hence makes any ripples more obvious, or it could be a reflection of something on the worktop; look to the right of this test piece at 5:36 in your video! To get a true idea of what is happening on the surface, geometrically, you would need to very much increase your sampling distance for the test.
SGS makes some amazing tools too.
Great tech vid! Love my YG1’s 😎😎 they do dull sorta quickly if you rough and finish with them, but finishing only and she lastsss 👌🏻
Got a Link to those desk lights?
Woa... now that's impressive 31 dollars for a half inch em in 2019, its hard to find a standard em for that price.
Great info, as always. Thanks for sharing!
Good tools that don't cost a fortune, nice.
So is this basically just your first trial with a high helix finishing endmill in general? Heard you talking about datron tools too recently, you should show off some of those :p
I don't know what its worth from a machinist point of view , but I have fairly consistant aluminum mirror finish with amanatool oflute.
have you ever tried them? :)
TY FOR METRIC!!!
Make that sweet CNC music
Oh wow, look at the boy that has been to Europe and bought a nice shirt ;-)
But beside that cool swag; Could you try take the microscope from the "top" of the part, so you can see the depth of the cuts? I wonder if where you see the lines gets erratic, it has jumped futher "into" the material than it should, making the marks irragular due to radial vibrations?
I use the same tool they are brilliant
Thanks for the cool content
Bright tools will always leave a shinier finish than coated, but coated will last longer.
You have two different diameter tools, that’s a huge difference with the “receipe” you used.
Your running way different SFM but the same IPT? Should be doing the opposite. Same SFM (not same RPM) and the IPT is always different for different diameter tools.
Grain direction of material will also make a difference.
Can this be used to make datum edges for making base plates to attach precision rails which requires datum edge?
Using a plain shank endmill on a set screw holder? Anybody else doing that? can't see holding on heavy cuts
Use them everyday....Awesome!
That thumbnail😂
I haven’t found any end mill give mirror finish like Destiny Viper still to date.
Nice find 😎
Interesting video. Any thoughts on how part & fixture rigidity could influence the surface finish?
so how does one grind the entire surface with that tool?
I'd like to see what readings you come up with if you measure the unevenness of your right-hand thumb nail.
Dang man! It looks like you accidentally ran an 1/8" ball nose end mill over that thumb nail a few times before moving your thumb out of the way.
I got some hand scars that would make you cringe too.
Run the YG1 at 8000 RPM and 96 IPM, I have found that to be the best
The biggest obvious difference is NOT the diameter.... its coated vs. non-coated.. Of course uncoated cutters will generally give you a better surface finish. Sort of confused at how the heck you missed that... As well as the helix angle.
What are the chances it was runout in the tool that caused those lines?
Could the irregularities be re-cutting of chips?
It appears that the smaller diameter tool is recutting the chips and the larger YG-1 is not. The chips from the YG-1 are being blown straight back. Are you cutting both at the same speed even though one is a larger diameter?
Try yg1 alupower hpc... even better than alupower. They are my favorite endmills and pricing is good. Also try out their powdered metal t15 speed freak on aluminum for roughing. Carbide can't even hang with this rougher...
What’s the Ra on your thumb nail?!? Take care of your tools John! 🙃
depends on the way you drag the stylus to measure it
I noticed that also. I had the same issue, it was having my hands in contact with the coolant we were using at the time.
I noticed that as well. As for myself, I noticed that my left hand thumbnail is always shiny, and the right hand thumbnail is more not shiny. I would like to run this machine on them for further analysis. lol
I’ve never had bad reactions from coolant but it sounds like you guys have. That sucks. I just figured John kept hitting his thumb with a hammer 🙃