Bhante Gunaratana, Maha Thera of the Sri Lankan order of all of North America has 3 fully ordained nuns at his temple. and he also supports abolishing the eight heavy rules. His views on their origin are similar to the bhante speaking here. sadu sadu sadu bhante Sujato!
Very good point regarding the inclusion of verses of enlightened nuns in the canonical scriptures. As Bhante says, this would have been unprecedented in 500B.C. It reminds me of a passage from the Anguttara Nikaya where the Buddha says that a man should "give authority" to his wife in the house. That really is quite remarkable for a 2'500+ year old religious scripture. Translated a bit differently it could read that men should "empower" their wives in the house.
This whole fight for Bhikkhuni ordination or not is more about CULTURE, then the dhamma, always has been, and always will be. I agree with Ajahn Brahm in other talks where he states that you should never let the culture overrule the teachings.
@yfahlin I just think it's male chauvinism. If for some bizarre reason the male Theravada sangha died out but not the female one, I am sure would-be monks wouldn't just put up with the idea that only women could be monastics for the rest of time
Wikipedia says that leaders of the Thai buddhist community decided to remove Ajahn Brahm from the Ajahn Chah Forest Sangha lineage because women were ordained at the monastery he heads. It seems very disappointing that a religion that is meant to cultivate compassion and wisdom would act like that.
That story of the Buddha choosing to ordain women later can't be true. In the mahaparrinibana sutta when the Buddha is recalling the day after his enlightenment, his mission statement which he told to Mara was that he would not die until he had monks nuns male lay followers and female lay followers. He clearly always planned to ordain women, and there are many examples, such as Dhammadinas series of question and answer in Majjhima nikaya where the Buddha says her teaching is equal to his.
Amazing recognition of an age-old gender struggle of stickin it to women. I appreciate that there is a call to at least being given the same respect of a man. Men and women are different. There should be checks and balances between nunneries and monasteries, like they should be given equal weight in their concrete value to the community, in terms of funding, social support etc. Women can also realize mind. This is great. Please just let them ordain. :)
@yfahlin Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote a paper showing how it is possible. And even if it wasn't if following legal rules slavishly is more important than compassion then monasticism seems pretty pointless. To me, a good monk is one who is compassionate
Bhikkhu Bodhi initially supported the ordination ... then someone whispered in his ear that he is a famous Buddhist author and would affect his fame so he retracted his statement. Fragile masculinity from one who has gone forth, abandoning the world ...
The highest respect to Buddha is Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, Upasika and Upasaka entering the right path, practicing according to Dhamma. bhikkhu vā bhikkhunī vā upāsako vā upāsikā vā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno viharati sāmīcippaṭipanno anudhammacārī, so tathāgataṃ sakkaroti garuṃ karoti māneti pūjeti apaciyati, paramāya pūjāya. 一位比丘、比丘尼、男居士、女居士進入正法, 方向正確地進入正道, 依法而行, 就是對如來作最高的照顧、恭敬、尊重、供養。[Dighanikaya, Parinibbanasuttam]
If you go by the words of the Buddha, by just pure buddhist knowledge, the fact that we were all mothers, the fact that there IS no I, no me, no identity, the fact that we can be male, female, or any other sentient being.. then it makes NO logical sense that female humans should not be monks equal to male humans. What if I reach the state of once returner in this life and next life.. oh dang I'm a female, guess I'm screwed out of the best chance of reaching Nibanna.. lol.
@yfahlin I am aware that you do not need to lead the homeless life to attain final libertarian, but I've never heard anything from any monks or cannons that DON'T state that the best chance to attain liberation IS the homeless life.
Modern day Buddhists take long time to get some progress because we do not want to create problems in our societies. For example, gay people in Sri Lanka should have EQUAL rights. But Government of Sri Lanka do not recognized them because they do not want to create riots because other religious groups in Sri Lanka highly against it. If Sri Lankan Buddhists passed a law for gay rights, it will create riots in Sri Lanka. But they do not beat gay people either.
Ajahn Brahm do you have any video so we can see your temple or meditation center? I also like to see some of the audience when there is dharma talk. I think it would be nice if we can see this.
If I were on one side of a river and was told that there used to a be a bridge here and I could cross but the bridge was brought down by a strong current. I know to build another bridge I would have to find a way across the river in order to build a foundation there to repair it, and I see a constructed bridge further downstream. I can use it to cross the river so that then I could rebuild the bridge. I don't think I would think too hard about it. I would just ask to use the other bridge.
@yfahlin The Buddha stated never to trust him or anything else on respect or faith, but only if it fits with your reason, and just like Ajahn Sujato I'm calling foul on these Bhikunni rules. It makes no logical sense based on all the teachings from the cannon i've read to have such separations based on gender when none of us truly ARE a gender. The only issues would be cultural issues as I stated before, not Dhamma issues or Karmic issues.
Are you, your self a Dharma practitioner? I would like to have a talk in person relayed to Buddha. I am located in the city of Alhambra southern California.
I believe Bhikkunis might have flown to China in 433 as respected Bhikku Ajahn Sujato told... however, as I know in Vietnam Theravada there is absolutely no bhikkunis since there is no ordained bhikkunis could do ordination others to become bhikkunis.....Same for Tibet there is no actual ordained bhikkunis recognized by bhikkun ....but I really hope female could get ordination as bhikkunis everywhere!
@yfahlin I don't see what destiny has to do with it; surely Buddhism is at least as much about personal effort and responsibility as it is just about "destinty". And why should gender be such a big deal (so bhikkhunis can't be ordained by bhikkus, according to you) - it is all one sangha, no? Anyway, here is Bhikku Bodhi's paper - thubtenchodron do t org/BuddhistNunsMonasticLife/revivalbhkni_final4.pdf
The Anguttara was the last nikaya compiled, it is the only one that has sexist content. Very unusual, if the Buddha really said those things it would be found in multiple nikayas
I CANNOT and DO NOT accept the statement that The Buddha refused to ordain Maha Prajapathi Gothami as a Bhikkhuni. The Buddha is not an ordinary human being. He is above that and is a Super normal human being. He has achieved the highest level in the development of Human Mind. Among his special skills there is the one which enables him to see the past, present and future of not only himself but that of anyone. It is a funny and an unrealistic comment if someone says or states in literature that The Buddha made any such refusal, as being The Buddha himself he had no problem of seeing Maha Prajapathi Gothami’s future as an ordained nun or the future of any other woman who would be ordained to become a Bhikkhuni. So that statement of refusal is ABSOLUTELY GROUNDLESS. Buddhism has well explained the occurrences, incidents by Hethu Pala Wadhaya (Law of Antecedental Concurrence-). He knows that he cannot change this natural phenomenon. I wonder whose STUPIDITY or IMMORALITY led to the statement that the Buddha refused the request of Gothami. Not only that The Buddha has ordained some lay female and male disciples by applying the procedure known as ‘Ehi Bhikkhu’. Couldn’t such a Buddha see the future in any one’s life? Didn’t he have two Agra Sravikas one for Pragna and one for Psychic powers same as Sariputtha and Moggallana? Weren’t these foreseeable to this Great Human Being known as The Buddha? Obviously one who possesses a clear mind and the power of thinking could see why The Buddha said “My Teachings are for those with Panna” . Panna is a high level of understanding. How many such people truly exist in the world? 🙏🙏🙏
But later it was found that this statement is not true at all. It's just some undisciplined disciples trying to act on their own, based on 'Avijja' Maybe you 'd like to check it yourself in the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta completely Sukhi hottu . . .
It is also disappointing about the rules about bikkhunis supposedly laid down by the Buddha where they are said to be inferior to monks. You say you and others question the historicity of this, but don't say why other than, presumably, that you don't like it and would prefer he hadn't said it. Is there so much more evidence for the historicity of other (more palatable to modern people) sayings of the Buddha?
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Bhante Gunaratana, Maha Thera of the Sri Lankan order of all of North America has 3 fully ordained nuns at his temple. and he also supports abolishing the eight heavy rules. His views on their origin are similar to the bhante speaking here.
sadu sadu sadu bhante Sujato!
Very good point regarding the inclusion of verses of enlightened nuns in the canonical scriptures. As Bhante says, this would have been unprecedented in 500B.C. It reminds me of a passage from the Anguttara Nikaya where the Buddha says that a man should "give authority" to his wife in the house. That really is quite remarkable for a 2'500+ year old religious scripture. Translated a bit differently it could read that men should "empower" their wives in the house.
This whole fight for Bhikkhuni ordination or not is more about CULTURE, then the dhamma, always has been, and always will be. I agree with Ajahn Brahm in other talks where he states that you should never let the culture overrule the teachings.
Thank you Ajahn Sujato, for the very interesting talk. 🙏🙏🙏
@yfahlin
I just think it's male chauvinism. If for some bizarre reason the male Theravada sangha died out but not the female one, I am sure would-be monks wouldn't just put up with the idea that only women could be monastics for the rest of time
Wikipedia says that leaders of the Thai buddhist community decided to remove Ajahn Brahm from the Ajahn Chah Forest Sangha lineage because women were ordained at the monastery he heads. It seems very disappointing that a religion that is meant to cultivate compassion and wisdom would act like that.
so it means there is no Arahat in that Thai forest monastery
@@SukmaHema Arahant.
That story of the Buddha choosing to ordain women later can't be true. In the mahaparrinibana sutta when the Buddha is recalling the day after his enlightenment, his mission statement which he told to Mara was that he would not die until he had monks nuns male lay followers and female lay followers. He clearly always planned to ordain women, and there are many examples, such as Dhammadinas series of question and answer in Majjhima nikaya where the Buddha says her teaching is equal to his.
Amazing recognition of an age-old gender struggle of stickin it to women. I appreciate that there is a call to at least being given the same respect of a man. Men and women are different. There should be checks and balances between nunneries and monasteries, like they should be given equal weight in their concrete value to the community, in terms of funding, social support etc. Women can also realize mind. This is great. Please just let them ordain. :)
Thank You Ajahn Sujato 🙏🏻👍❤️
@yfahlin
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote a paper showing how it is possible. And even if it wasn't if following legal rules slavishly is more important than compassion then monasticism seems pretty pointless. To me, a good monk is one who is compassionate
Bhikkhu Bodhi initially supported the ordination ... then someone whispered in his ear that he is a famous Buddhist author and would affect his fame so he retracted his statement. Fragile masculinity from one who has gone forth, abandoning the world ...
The highest respect to Buddha is Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, Upasika and Upasaka entering the right path, practicing according to Dhamma.
bhikkhu vā bhikkhunī vā upāsako vā upāsikā vā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno viharati sāmīcippaṭipanno anudhammacārī, so tathāgataṃ sakkaroti garuṃ karoti māneti pūjeti apaciyati, paramāya pūjāya.
一位比丘、比丘尼、男居士、女居士進入正法, 方向正確地進入正道, 依法而行, 就是對如來作最高的照顧、恭敬、尊重、供養。[Dighanikaya, Parinibbanasuttam]
:)
Dear Sister,
this Venerable's name is Ajahn Sujato.
He is a good monk like Ajahn Brahm.
Gives good talks too :)
.
If you go by the words of the Buddha, by just pure buddhist knowledge, the fact that we were all mothers, the fact that there IS no I, no me, no identity, the fact that we can be male, female, or any other sentient being.. then it makes NO logical sense that female humans should not be monks equal to male humans.
What if I reach the state of once returner in this life and next life.. oh dang I'm a female, guess I'm screwed out of the best chance of reaching Nibanna.. lol.
@yfahlin I am aware that you do not need to lead the homeless life to attain final libertarian, but I've never heard anything from any monks or cannons that DON'T state that the best chance to attain liberation IS the homeless life.
@yfahlin "arhanta" so even final liberation needs to be qualified by a gender difference in wording?:P
南無阿彌陀佛
Modern day Buddhists take long time to get some progress because we do not want to create problems in our societies. For example, gay people in Sri Lanka should have EQUAL rights. But Government of Sri Lanka do not recognized them because they do not want to create riots because other religious groups in Sri Lanka highly against it. If Sri Lankan Buddhists passed a law for gay rights, it will create riots in Sri Lanka. But they do not beat gay people either.
Ajahn Brahm do you have any video so we can see your temple or meditation center? I also like to see some of the audience when there is dharma talk. I think it would be nice if we can see this.
If I were on one side of a river and was told that there used to a be a bridge here and I could cross but the bridge was brought down by a strong current. I know to build another bridge I would have to find a way across the river in order to build a foundation there to repair it, and I see a constructed bridge further downstream. I can use it to cross the river so that then I could rebuild the bridge. I don't think I would think too hard about it. I would just ask to use the other bridge.
@yfahlin The Buddha stated never to trust him or anything else on respect or faith, but only if it fits with your reason, and just like Ajahn Sujato I'm calling foul on these Bhikunni rules. It makes no logical sense based on all the teachings from the cannon i've read to have such separations based on gender when none of us truly ARE a gender. The only issues would be cultural issues as I stated before, not Dhamma issues or Karmic issues.
@yfahlin
So if being a full monk is irrelevant to achieving enlightenment then why do monks bother with it?
The fame and adulation....
How do i get ordinated as a bhikkhu? I want to become a full-fledged monk, but i dont know how...
Are you, your self a Dharma practitioner? I would like to have a talk in person relayed to Buddha. I am located in the city of Alhambra southern California.
He is an ordained Monk in the Theravada tradition, and he lived in Australia.
He's wearing robes, Ajahn title after 10 rains/Vassa....
I believe Bhikkunis might have flown to China in 433 as respected Bhikku Ajahn Sujato told... however, as I know in Vietnam Theravada there is absolutely no bhikkunis since there is no ordained bhikkunis could do ordination others to become bhikkunis.....Same for Tibet there is no actual ordained bhikkunis recognized by bhikkun ....but I really hope female could get ordination as bhikkunis everywhere!
“Selfish Arahant” does not and cannot exist, as an Arahant is a completely cleaned person of all worldly attachments. 🙏
@yfahlin
I don't see what destiny has to do with it; surely Buddhism is at least as much about personal effort and responsibility as it is just about "destinty". And why should gender be such a big deal (so bhikkhunis can't be ordained by bhikkus, according to you) - it is all one sangha, no? Anyway, here is Bhikku Bodhi's paper - thubtenchodron do t org/BuddhistNunsMonasticLife/revivalbhkni_final4.pdf
our spirits are androgynous . .
The Anguttara was the last nikaya compiled, it is the only one that has sexist content. Very unusual, if the Buddha really said those things it would be found in multiple nikayas
Ajahn sujato
I CANNOT and DO NOT accept the statement that The Buddha refused to ordain Maha Prajapathi Gothami as a Bhikkhuni. The Buddha is not an ordinary human being. He is above that and is a Super normal human being. He has achieved the highest level in the development of Human Mind. Among his special skills there is the one which enables him to see the past, present and future of not only himself but that of anyone. It is a funny and an unrealistic comment if someone says or states in literature that The Buddha made any such refusal, as being The Buddha himself he had no problem of seeing Maha Prajapathi Gothami’s future as an ordained nun or the future of any other woman who would be ordained to become a Bhikkhuni.
So that statement of refusal is ABSOLUTELY GROUNDLESS.
Buddhism has well explained the occurrences, incidents by Hethu Pala Wadhaya (Law of Antecedental Concurrence-).
He knows that he cannot change this natural phenomenon.
I wonder whose STUPIDITY or IMMORALITY led to the statement that the Buddha refused the request of Gothami.
Not only that The Buddha has ordained some lay female and male disciples by applying the procedure known as ‘Ehi Bhikkhu’.
Couldn’t such a Buddha see the future in any one’s life?
Didn’t he have two Agra Sravikas one for Pragna and one for Psychic powers same as Sariputtha and Moggallana?
Weren’t these foreseeable to this Great Human Being known as The Buddha?
Obviously one who possesses a clear mind and the power of thinking could see why The Buddha said “My Teachings are for those with Panna” . Panna is a high level of understanding.
How many such people truly exist in the world?
🙏🙏🙏
I am.
But later it was found that this statement is not true at all. It's just some undisciplined disciples trying to act on their own, based on 'Avijja'
Maybe you 'd like to check it yourself in the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta completely
Sukhi hottu . . .
Bikhunis and Bikhus should get together - love making is a powerful spiritual practice. really!
It is also disappointing about the rules about bikkhunis supposedly laid down by the Buddha where they are said to be inferior to monks. You say you and others question the historicity of this, but don't say why other than, presumably, that you don't like it and would prefer he hadn't said it. Is there so much more evidence for the historicity of other (more palatable to modern people) sayings of the Buddha?