Are Ephesians 4 Gifts Offices of the Church, Personalities types, or grace gifts?
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2022
- Early on in my charismatic history, I understood that the Ephesians 4 gifts were offices that God instituted to govern the local church. Later on In the journey, I stumbled upon Alan Hirsh’s work, suggesting that the Ephesians 4 gifts were more like personality types that motivated us and painted our interpretation processes. After that my reformed charismatic buddies tried to convince me that the Ephesians 4 gifts were graces given by God detached from our personalities or our participation within the local communities. 🤔🤔🤔
In this episode, we are presenting these three views and examining their biblical validity of them.
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This office/gifting conversation just came up in an elder training class at my church, we lacked clarity, so it was so cool to then hear you guys take up the conversation. Love your opinions, thank you!
What y’all are doing such a wonderful service to the body of Christ! I look forward to hearing what y’all have to say about the apostle. Thank you brothers!
This is so interesting! I think the best thing to do is look at these in respect to the new testament examples we see.
For example:
Apostle: Church planters sent to a place with a message to a group of people - clearly seen over and over with Jesus apostles -- however today, there is no new canon. They do not rule the Churches.
Prophet - doesn't rule over a church, we don't see that in the Bible, but the gift works in a way to speak forth God's insight/wisdom to guide, but not on the level of scripture -- example - Agabus.
Evangelist - Philip! Where he went, there were miracles. I honestly think we dumb down the evangelist to someone who is just good at getting people saved, but I think that falls more in line with someone who has the gift of exhortation and preaching (Rom 12).
I think a good modern example is the difference between Reinhard Bonnke and Billy Graham. They are both great exhorters and preachers, but Bonnke was used in miracles much like Phillip the evangelist was.
Pastor - Clearly a shepherd over the flock. This is the person gifted to minister to the people day in an day out. In a number of local capacities. I think the pastor is the overseer, in the sense that a natural shepherd is dedicated to oversee and care for a flock.
Teacher - We clearly understand this one, but I do think that there is a grace/gift to teach clearly and in a way that people easily understand. Anyone can and should PREACH the gospel, but I believe God gifts people to more correctly explain things, like Priscilla and Aquila.
All of these gifts work together! We see in Acts where Phillip the evangelist when and brought great miracles to a region and people were saved, but the apostles came afterwards to teach and plant churches. And then we have Timothy who is an example of a pastor over a church who is also called to do the work of an evangelist. We see the apostles still had care for the churches, but not in a rulership sense and neither were the apostles stationary in one church, but as was their call, they would travel with the message. All of these ministries are needed for the full education of the believer, but I don't see in the bible where we need them all in one local church at all times. Thats the Pastor. The other gifts are a support and help to the pastor and the flock they oversee.
This is brilliant. Thank you for sharing
@@13amiller I'm glad you commented because it reminded me of this - Apostles will often walk in the office of prophet and evangelist as outlined above as well, since this is something we clearly see in scripture too!
I just love love love this podcast. God bless you guys !
Holy spirit showed me this in scripture a while back and I've been writing about what he has been revealing to me about it. I've never heard anyone point it out let alone teach on it before so I'm sooo excited to see what everyone has to say about this!!!!
Before even listening to this full episode, I have to make it known that I'm one of those enjoying and finding encouragement from the Kansas City Prophets episodes, thanks for the time and investment guys. Josh great point from your experience with the focus of the church creating the desire in your heart for evanglism, but the joy and pleasure was in teaching for you or so I took it that way. I can relate to that, I want to do whatever Jesus wants as far as I know, but teaching comes so easy and fluid for me, brings me great joy when text come together while teaching or when someone can understand "see" what I mean. So if we aren't careful one gift or more may get little focus in the congretation and we loss out on the value to the whole body of what those other gifts outside the focus might bring. I may not be saying this as well as you did, you said it right on.
Definitely has me thinking. Thank you.
Yes, thank you! You answered a question I have had. It was one of those situations where I knew something is wrong but couldn't quite put my finger on it... now I know! 😃 Anyhoo, thank you... All the way from SA 🇿🇦
To prophesy is to build up a believer. A Prophet equips for ministry or corrects a body or edifies a body etc
I go to a baptist church in Orlando. This past Sunday one of our leaders spoke on this passage. The first time I have ever heard this passage taught that the church the body had these gifts and how they can function today in the marketplace
Thank you for this discussion. I think it's ironic that pastor is just Latin for shepherd and the Scriptures have much to say on shepherds, not least of all that it's almost an outcast profession, humble, despised and looked down upon. The pastor as boss man is so far removed from that reality.
Many years ago I read a helpful teaching by Barry Chant on the gifts and he divided them into gifts of the Father (Romans 12, I think...long time ago), gifts of the Son (Ephesians 4) and gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). Basically, a trinitarian approach to gifts, but it's so long ago, I cannot remember the details, except he said that regarding gifts of the Spirit, you might find yourself stranded on a desert island with one other person who happens to have broken their leg. You pray for their leg to be healed, through the gift of healing the leg is made whole, but when you are rescued and return home you may never have that gift again - it was given by the Spirit as He saw fit and you are not suddenly a healer with a 'healing ministry'.
Another helpful book I recommend is Wolfgang Simson's 'Houses That Change the World' - a thoroughly biblical approach to church and ministry, and a lot of sound teaching on elders, deacons and the four or five-fold (I agree with Watchman Nee that it's four-fold because of the lack of the quantifying 'some' before teachers).
Finally, I don't believe that God makes duds - there are no empty bottles. Moreover, God is exceedingly and abundantly generous, so everyone is gifted, whether they know it or not, believe it or not, exercise it or not. There is more of the four-fold in the Body of Christ that we realise, more than we see or give credit to. Brothers and sisters, young and old are continuously being sent places, continuously sharing Jesus, continuously speaking the oracles of God, continuously looking after other sheep and lambs and continuously teaching. Some are doing this in church buildings, most are not, some are doing this on Sundays and on a midweek evening, most are not. Most are doing this in their homes, at work or school, in their neighbourhoods, wherever and whenever.
YOUR GRAY HAIR LOOKS SO COOL!!! I thought you styled it that way on purpose!!
Another great discussion! A comment on the 'office' language. The early church consisted mainly of home-based groups. Kinship was important - the main metaphors employed, for leaders and for relationships in general, are that of the family ('you have not many fathers' etc). We wouldn't say someone held the office of a father or mother. I suspect the 'office' language comes from a more institutional view of the Church than we see in the NT. I realise that the elder/bishop language was borrowed from existing organisations, but feel this shouldn't detract from the essentially familial feel to the church in Acts/the Epistles. Perhaps we see a drift towards a more service-provider model of ministry today. Any comments on this suggestion?
praise JESUS CHRIST
Just finished preaching a series on the Gifts of Jesus in Ephesians 4:11. Very interested in what is said here.
Please do a show on the apostle thing. All the info I have read give different definitions of what modern day apostles are and what they do.
I am doing my own personal study on apostles. I plan to do a series of videos on the apostolic in more detail when I launch more of a platform.
Grace and peace brothers. Love what you guys do. It's hard to find balance now days meaning.. sound doctrine PLUS truly anointed ministry. I love theology and expository teaching but it's rare to find expository teachers who BELIEVE the WHOLE counsel of God. Much of their exposition becomes mostly explaining away the scriptures as if they don't mean what they say. Sad. A lot of these dear brothers are good communicators and Bible exegetes. But their presuppositions and unbelief is robbing them of a tangible experience with the God of the Bible they so eloquently teach about. Anywho. This show is a breathe of fresh air. Keep it coming. This is truly edifying and God glorifying. I hope You read this because I believe You guys should do a program refuting modalism and UPCI doctrine. Pick it apart and dismantle it. A lot of people are being deceived by this cult. Our cessationist brothers are nonetheless less brothers In the Lord for they hold to the triunity of God AND they don't have some gnostic Jesus. The UPC definitely has a gnostic Jesus... a DIFFERENT Jesus.
Liked and commented. ☺️
In this regard I hold the view of the organic church - God has given these offices to the church, whether the church recognizes it or not. Often I believe, the current church stones its prophets much like the old testament Israel did.
I think we (contemporary christians) make too much of church office and formal position anyways, God's real impactin work in my view often happens outside formal positions (not always of course).
As a request, I would find it interesting for you guys to interview someone from the organic / house church movement....
I used to listen to some people talking about the teaching of Wolfgang Simson or Neil Cole - would be interesting, if you guys touched on this. Had to look them up again, has been a while, since I checked that stuff
Amen. Especially if you have a different interpretation of scriptures than what they hold.
I'm grateful for my tiny church. We have a lady in the congregation who read a story about 3,000 beagles being rescued from a puppy mill and she's extremely conflicted on it and pastor is actually going to let her go up on Sunday and give a little speech about it! Lol
Hey Josh, so I know what your saying about the Bible tells us to desire all gifts especially prophecy but does not mean there can’t be other desires that are empowered by grace for your role? I love hearing from the Lord and do get words and direction from Holy Spirit but I have a great desire for the lost and an ability to connect with others. So much so that my Pastor put me acknowledge a gift of evangelism in me and put me in charge of our outreach ministry. This is mostly fueled by my desire to engage with people who are not believers and want to share Jesus with them. I kinda feel like your saying maybe that our desires can’t be how God gives us grace for certain ministries. I also believe that I have seen God move in pretty cool ways to encourage this desire and grow in developing gifting
I recommend you to read Michael Heisser's explanation of that connection of Eph. 4-Psal. 68. There is a chapter in his Unfiltered Bible in which he explains in a very coherent way.
Jesus gave the five ministry gifts which is different than the Holy Spirit distributing gifts. It would be helpful if you talked about these in different segments and then prayerfully have a discussion about the differences. Right now, you’re being forced to bounce back and forth on the topic. I do agree that it’s not necessary for the Ephesians 4 gifts to be offices. The Bible does not call them that.
I consider these to be “callings” as such if you have the calling then you have the gift
Yeah, good subject for further investigation. There aren't going to be any heavenly diplomas to display in one's "office." But when a man (or woman) has a genuine gift and that person is called to be a minister (more of a full time gig, as all of us are "ministers" in the sense of servants of the Gospel and of Christ), then it's reasonable to say that person holds an office. We can trust that it will all fit like a jigsaw puzzle. God is pretty wise in His callings.
If elders and deacons are to be ruling over the assembly of believers, then how did it come about that the pastor(-teacher) came to rule over the elders and deacons? We have adopted a CEO structure of leadership that was never intended. I think Paul might be getting at a plurality of leadership, not only here but also in 1 Timothy and Titus. For example, there might be someone with the gift of prophecy who is identified as also being able to equip others in their gifting in prophecy. In the OT there were schools of prophets with a lead prophet. This idea of people equipping others in their gifting could apply to the other offices/gifts (however you want to designate them) mentioned in Ephesians 4.
Just watching this and I want to thank you very much for the way this was explained. I've been researching and have been trying to disern this subject.
It was wonderful !! Bless you both.
I am inclined to think that the collection of those gifts is what is meant to equip the saints- not each one individually equipping as exercised in and of itself, though sometimes they do. I don't speak Greek, but that's how I would understand it.
How often do you guys check your messages on Patreon?
As a husband and father, I see myself as the shepherd/pastor of my home. I don't view that as a title or position, but as my main responsibility to my family: to shepherd them, to lovingly teach, guide, and lead them with my co-priest, my wife. Is this biblically correct or am I off in my views?
You are the spiritual covering of the household. You are also responsible when things are out of order and it's your job to correct it.
So right on. I love it.
Definitely the pastor of your home, but not in the sense of a spiritual gifting or calling, like that of a church pastor/Bishop/overseer (just using the Bible language). You are a pastor of your home because you chose to become and husband and father. No less important, just different.
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ba Berean,
Ta-ake my hand
ba Berean
You got me checkin and effectin
checkin and correctin
Baberean
Went to a church, just hoping to lurk
Saw a Berean, so I really had to work
With a ba Berean
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They wanna take you by the hand
talk with you my good man
A Ba Berean!
Ba ba ba etc.
Take my hand
Oh Ba Berean
I got invested and arrested
tested and bested
by a Berean
Overall I agree. I feel like there’s a place for both/and here in some situations though.
I think the personality thing can be defended a bit but not with this passage. We all know there are different types of people. There are clearly repeated patterns that God likes. What kind of clay pot did the Artist make that person? What kind of character did the Author make him? Theres many ways to chop this up. Biblically, you could use specific characters like how the bible links Elijah and John the Baptist. They were unusual, tough, preachers of Gods truth. There's Peter who acts before he thinks, which gets him into trouble sometimes but he's an influencer etc. Lots of examples to dive into but who doesnt know these kinds of people? And generally, it seems God likes to not remake their personalities but shape and fill them with His Spirit. But that doesnt mean were locked into any particular way of serving as God can give a timid person (perhaps a Timothy) the gift of teaching/exhortation and they need to step into it. Just some thoughts
I am going to pick up on the DT 32 worldview and the gifts he gives were taken from the angels that were ruling the nations, this is how he disarmed the ruling powers.
I thought I was called to teaching before, & I kept getting it on online "spiritual gifts test". However pretty much anytime I get into an actual classroom it doesn't work out... meanwhile my husband was a youth pastor for the 1st 5-7 years of our marriage...& Now he is a highschool art teacher...so I'm wondering can you be called to something because your significant other will be doing it practically??
I think it just means that on paper you look like you would be a good teacher. I don't think these spiritual gifts tests are flawless
Considering prophets versus prophesying, do you see this pattern in the Old Testament. I'm thinking specifically of the group of prophets who were prophesying and when Saul came to them the Spirit came on him and he prophesied. It did not make him a prophet just because he got a prophetic word just like speaking in tongues doesn'tmake you something you are simplyusinga gift. Most gifts are just a manifestation of the Holy Spirit in a particular moment in time. But there were people who were Prophets, you could say they had the office of a prophet. I like the description of these as motivational gifts. As a prophet you may teach or evangelize, but they will do so through the lens of prophet. Each one of the five see the body and life through their gifts. Teachers always want to bring clarity, Shepherds always want to care for people and so on. It is less about Authority. Elders are the authority working with the other five and the entire body. None is autonomous. We are all a part making up the whole. Paul and Silas were sent they submitted themselves to Peter and others. Paul speaks of those who lead us.
If you truly believe they are not positions then why are you on a paid staff as a Pastor or make the dissensions to not allow certain people to speak. You yourself function as though these are positions.
Great show. I would say that this discussion must take place under the universal truth, found all the New Testament, that there is no partiality with God. Because of this truth Paul's ranking or ordering can in no way imply one gift is valued over another in any circumstance. The biblical division of gifts, that leads to value, I can find is the one in 1 Cor 14 of edification.
My church has several in leadership that are more pastorally gifted. I find that while I learn something when they teach, I often find it lacking in the full counsel or truth of the matter that they are teaching on. Could this be that those strongly pastorally gifted are unbalanced (and therefore need more balance from others)? Or is this a not-yet-mature expression of this gift?
Full disclosure, I find myself very frustrated by the over-representation of "shepherds" and wonder if it's the nature of this gift or just the expression I'm witnessing.
I still believe it is offices. The Offices equipping the saint, doesn't mean the "offices" the the prophet teach others to prophecy, but rather through the execution of his office, the prophet can encourage the saints. The "teacher" (office) doesn't teach others to be able to teach - it is only through his execution of training, that he helps the church.
The office is a way to recognize certain people that they have been verified as "valid".
1 Sam 3:20 And all Israel from Dan even to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established to be a prophet of the LORD.
Yet, regardless of your "office", you must still be qualified as an elder. The offices are ways to differentiate between different TYPES of elders.
Brothers, I haven’t been listening to your show too long, so forgive me if some of comments have been addressed. It seems inappropriate to downplay the role of the prophet too much. Especially, because of their role in the foundation of the church. Unless you think the mention of prophets with apostles is referencing only the prophets of the OT. This is why I think the subject deserves closer scrutiny. It seems like there are two many people calling themselves apostles and prophets. I believe the Lord is using your show to purify the thinking on this. It seems there is more to being a prophet (or any of Ephesians 4 callings) than just prophesying. What about the daily life and quiet moments, etc? Thanks for hearing me out. Many blessings.
You guys need John Fenn up here
Dude, did Josh say "he can't exegete himself out of a wet paper bag!?"🤣🤣🤣
47:18 My leader's office was confirmed by three different prophets, that don't know each other, that he is an apostle. The one prophet dreamt that he himself had a very difficult case to solve, while he was pondering on the issue he heard Gad's voice saying ask My apostle, when he turned his head he saw my leader in the dream.
Question is, is that an office or gift?
@@mnelisi Paul in one of his epistles' wrote, "I magnify my office". The answer is its BOTH a gift and a office.
@@Light17784 so you’d say your apostle has the same level of authority as Paul or the Twelve?
@@mnelisi Nope, not saying that but he has the grace of the apostolic gift.
@@Light17784 so he’s like a missionary/church planter?
Gift of prophecy vs the office of a prophet:
Saul was under the prophets and prophesied, yet he was never a prophet.
vs
Jeremiah was a prophet who prophesied regularly.
Kenneth Hagin is a perfect example
Is Paul really saying we should all be prophets and seeking the gift of prophecy above everything else? Within this context he also says not all can be prophets, in fact his analogy of the body of Christ being like ears and noses and feet will lead to a lot of disappointed people seeking the gift of prophecy while living in reality that they are just an ear with the gift of administration. When he gets 1 Co 14:1-5 he is using prophecy as a contrast of a gift that builds the church against a gift that does not build the church. Paul is not saying "prophecy" is the best gift but the best gifts are those that build the church, with prophecy just being an example, because it seems the Corinthians wanted prophecy for its own sake without ever edifying the church. It almost seems like Paul is mocking and being sarcastic toward the Corinthians at this point. If we divide the gifts of the Holy Spirit the best line to draw is one of edification.
Prophecy doesn't make someone a Prophet. All may prophesy, but only God appoints a Prophet.
Prophet's job is to equip saints
Most translations use the word "grace" in v7, not gifts. Why are you trying to "force" the verse to mean gifts?
Perhaps the Bride will be ready when we run out of places to flee to from persecution.
You definitely sound like Lou Engal!! 😂
I believe God still does miracles I don't believe in capital A apostles that was a special time. I've seen people say they have tongues gift never heard anyone interpret it.I believe there are real languages not gibberish.
Your argument against prophecy vs prophet shows you are confused. No one says everyone with prophecy should be equipping or leading that's exactly what they're arguing against. Also, you have a problem with people taking apostle and prophet as a title but I bet pastor/teacher/evangelist is perfectly fine to you as a title.
I think you failed to spend enough time on the rest of Ephesians 4 and understanding what these 5 are equipping people to do. A prophet wouldn't train people to be prophets. A prophet would teach the entire body to hear from God. The 5 equip the entire body to do the ministry and edify each other.
Office is the wrong word. Its ministries. Minister = servant. Even if they're "offices" it has nothing to do with authority but service to the body.
About the word pastor being found only in Ephesians. That is not completely true. Ephesians is the only place where the word is used for a Christian as opposed to Jesus. This word is found many other places but always in reference to Jesus. I think it would help for the discussion to look at the verb form of this word because it is used many times to refer to Christians like 1 Peter 5:1-4
I think they’re referring to the modern view of the pastor. The one that most of us are familiar with (has multiple functions, arguably most authority, etc).
Josh would you say your gift of teacher and the desire you had to do it brought you out of the false narrative you received. If you had been taught correctly you would have been in you proper gift earlier. You are misrepresenting Allen's position in your exploration and application.
Only Jesus can hold the office prophet, king, high priest. The messianic psalms make that clear. No Christian can hold these offices without attempting to usurp Jesus as the Christ. A Christian can be a prophet, have the gift of prophecy but never be in the office of prophet.
I must I’m kinda disappointed in this discussion. I’ve been going further and further away from the pro-Office position and I was hoping this discussion would bring me back since everyone in my denomination believes that.
There you said it again Michael - “Male Headship in the church as well as in the home.” That is totally unbiblical. There is no biblical allowance for human headship in the church - only in the marriage relationship. The head of every man is Christ, period. There is only one central headship of the church and that is Jesus, and not the pastor or the eldership or the apostle or anyone else. Your slip of the tongue that you would never preach as doctrine (I would hope) is the dirty secret of the organized church, and that is that man has usurped Christ’s position as head of His body, the church. I love you guys and I don’t nitpick you at all, but I must call that out as so wrong and so insidious, this unscriptural, yet tragically common notion and practice of human headship in the church.
Thanks for covering this topic. I have questions and thoughts I’d love to submit to you on this episode! Can I email you?