The narcissistic abuse has made me feel so humiliated and dehumanised my entire life. Inadequacy and shame. The narcissist's deep sense of worthlessness projected onto the scapegoated child. It definitely feels like avoidant personality disorder. Thank you Dr Ramani. 💔
Ah don't value what they say, put any truth into it, they want to make us crumble like big Godzillas🐲 walking through a quiet town which wasn't bothering anyone anyway!
@@chriswyma145 best to know they're wacko from the get go by observing how they treat others, they don't accept themselves and put pressure on us, doing well enough for us, to *** and **** now don't forget to **** plus be the life of the party 🎉 so they'll get invited and have someplace to go!
Same here...went from narc mother to narc husband. My eyes were opened a year ago. Left now but I don't know if I still stand a chance in life at my age with my life experiences..
@Kia Heartbreakingly, I see that in my son too. His dad has NPS. I hope you find the best mentor to aid you in recovery to happy and healthy fullness of life. It’s hard to know where to turn and who to trust to get healing from APD.
@ Kia RUclips . I feel like narcs are like a toxic cancer. Similar to their gossip I have heard the saying plant a seed and watch it grow. Cancer is like that too, it’s horrible and it grows! I am glad that you have awareness now and hopefully it can help you in your path in life. Dr. Ramani and others are helping me to bridge how narcissism or those behaviors are in my opinion a direct link to criminal activity, I wish you healing thoughts in humanity.🤔❤️
The most sickening thing about avoidant personality disorder is how much people drill into your head that it’s “your fault” when it’s actually a result of severe abuse. It’s not my fault and never was.
However I agree you having avpd might not be your fault however it is still your responsibility to try and be the best version of yourself. Make sure you use it as an explanation for certain situations but not an excuse because it's easy and you'll get comfortable in the victim position.
You have 2 sides of that coin. It is true that someone with APD is a victim of emotional abuse. However, that doesn’t mean that, as you become an adult, you don’t have some responsibility for this condition and that you should’nt own actively doing something about it. It is not your fault but that doesn’t mean you are not responsible for helping yourself.
@@Loch1210exactly, it’s very easy to be a victim but hurt people hurt people so I wish they can also see how being abused or hurt does not excuse them being hurtful to others regardless of what causes them to do it. Being a perpetual victim is not ok because accountability will never be taken and growth will never happen. Very difficult disorder to deal with
My father is a covert narcissist. In my childhood home, I was often shamed for expressing my emotions (my sister did most of the shaming). I was also terrified of interacting with people and thought I was faulty and worthless as a person. A good example is when a group of kids tried befriending me, but I assumed that they only wanted to hurt me, so I stayed away from them. But at the same time, I yarned for a connection with someone, to have someone in my life who'd tell me I was ok. I was a terrified kid, who had also been overprotected by my mother, so I had no idea how relationships work or how to recognize dangerous people. So my first relationships were with toxic people (first a psychopath, then a covert narcissist). I stayed in my toxic relationships because I was certain I couldn't find anyone else who would tolerate me. My self-esteem is low and I definitely don't like interacting with people if I don't know that they like me. But I'm slowly working on my traumas, starting with identifying emotions, etc.
So, how is this working out for you? I know it’s a year later. I just realized I’m going through the same thing and I’m curious about how to navigate this.
Dr. Ramani, Just know that all your hard work, does not go in vain. Do you realize how many people you help? Every day, you’re educating with such passion and that’s what makes you, SPECIAL! Thank you!❤️
I enjoy being recognized and my experiences understood and my feelings legitimized ;I almost believed my ex was not aware of his narcissistic behaviors and cared about my mental health. Your stories and explanations always have been eye opening and spot on. I swear my 2' exes graduated with full honors from narcissist universities
The difference between someone who has an Avoidance Personality Disorder and a Narcissists is one is capable of empathy and remorse and the other one isn't!
Eye Of Now I know exactly how they feel. One parent takes pleasure in watching their children suffer and openly laughs about it (narc) and the other doesn’t care to be involved and let’s the narc run the shit show (Avoidant) God doesn’t exist in the literal sense of picking and choosing parents.
@@AntiVegan please stop invalidating other people’s feelings. Just because someone has gone through abuse doesn’t justify them treating other people badly. This pattern of if I have suffered then others/my children should suffer is toxic.
I have AVPD and it gets better as you get older but my life was wasted. My father would shame me growing up and embarrass me. I felt so humiliated. The “friends” that I had would take advantage of me. My bf could not understand why I didn’t stand up for myself and eventually left me. We were living together and he brought his new girlfriend home once and did not let me in my apartment. He was such a “ nice” guy from the mid-west. I don’t understand why people are so cruel, even nice people.
Your boyfriend may do nice things, but a "nice person" would not bring his girlfriend home and keep you out! My husband did nice things and some selfish inconsiderate things! I ended the relationship! Nice people care about you and your feelings and it "reflects" in their actions!
Your bf sounds like a narc! I'm avoidant and got preyed on by narcs for years, I let all the good ones pass me by because I couldn't read them properly. I feel your pain. ♡
I'm gonna time mine next time he dissapears after I've brought bring up another time he wasn't there for me, last time I thought he was just getting another beer but no, he went to his man cave, his very own self-made refugee camp!
@@missyk2984 it is your responsibility to change it though. I am. It's tough but I'm working on it. You can too. Work on embracing your own emotions first
I have this avoidant PD, I’m quite sure. My parents could easily be classified as narcissistic, along with some other difficult person tags. I’m super tense and restricted with people. I might seem relax and funny - to those who don’t know - but I’m avoiding all close and intense interactions and relationships. I’m always alone by myself.
I had a very shy personality growing up but I wasn't self doubting myself like i do now. I feel the need to apologize to everyone I know for just talking. I am learning how to have a real conversation with people, but it's hard when I walk away to not not pick everything I said and did, and then feel bad or even cry for not being a better conversationalist. My ex would list off the things I needed to change or be better at when being around people, so I am always second guessing myself now. This is where I am now, I wasn't before I was married, just shy, now I have allot of these symptoms. I will talk to my therapist about this. Thanks!
Esther Anders, I had the same experiences of second guessing myself and self blame when interacting with ppl. Throughout the years I started getting angry as to why did I care so much, and was sick and tired of feeling this way. Now these thoughts still come to me sporadically, so I catch myself and say in my head “ I do not care”. Ironically enough this anger has helped me feel better about myself. 🙏🏼❤️
@@ladybaabaa3294 he was my husband and we were married for almost 13 years. In the end I didn't want to go anywhere, because I could never say or do the right thing in his eyes. He turned my best friends against me, if he couldn't flirt with them, he would make them leave, because he would bad mouth me so bad they didn't want to me my friend anymore. He told me my family trashed talked me when I left the room, so even talking with family was hard, because I thought everyone in the entire world hated me and I should be grateful that he was willing to put up with pathetic old me. If I had only known it was him who I needed to get rid of and I would get back to me and people wanted to be my friend they just didn't like him. Thankfully God brought a women in my life who had been through the same thing and worse and helped me see this wasnt healthy and I needed help. I finally reached out and got help. Been divorced for 3 years and growing everyday. I just started feeling more confident, and now I don't run when someone comes up to talk to me.
I feel the need to apologize for speaking too, practically everyone I know talks on and on and over me and I patiently listen but when I talk I feel like no one wants to hear me and that I'm talking too much even if it's only a sentence or two I've said, so I wind up apologizing a lot for speaking let alone everything else. I also say thank you too much. It's weird, I make it weird.
So much of my life just became clear… My profound shame is so overwhelming that I will avoid every opportunity to bond unless I’m forced to do so. Last week I explained to someone that I was shamed so desperately as a child by peers, teachers, family, etc., that I withdraw at the first inkling I’m not appreciated. Outwardly, I portray the “I don’t care what anyone thinks of me” attitude because I was not able to express myself in front of my family. If I had I would have been mercilessly teased. I had to learn to look confident even when I’m dying inside, which I guess was a good thing.
It's a fine line the developing psyche must walk between avoiding narcissistic intentions of others and manifesting them to survive. Thank you for all you do Dr R 🙏🏻👌🏻💜
The line's about as narrow as the ants use to track the path, I agree with you, nothing short of a tight rope, complete balancing act, our umbrella 🌂 in a hurricane isn't much use there either!
@Josee Noel I love your analogy... our sence of goodness is our umbrella with which we are infected / protected by those who show us love before we even know what it is called ... spread kindness it is our communal immunity 💜
When I read the comments, I find my story, I find what I wanted to express written in it, I find people who know what I suffered with a narcissistic mother... I feel relieved that there is someone who understands me in this world
I believe APD is worse, then social anxiety. I already had it from both my narcissistic parents. But when I got out on house arrest for 8 months at just 13, losing contact with my friends. And adding the APD, I never went back to socializing and made it hard for me to keep close relationships. It’s not to say I still don’t try to come out, but I do always have that feeling like I’m dying by just talking to someone
I really appreciate this series reviewing the various mental health conditions, which is great 'general information' for all of us to have! as I keep learning, I am becoming increasingly clear about the challenging relationships in my life, I am feeling more strong within myself, and I am drawing boundaries with greater ease.
It sad that our tragedies have become the pattern of who we are 🤦♀️I’ve often wondered what type of person I would have been without all the trauma 🤷♀️thanks doc I’ve learned a lot about myself by watching your videos 😇Knowledge is Power 💐🙏
Your comment brought me to tears. I often think this. I draw, write and sing. I’m also a very opinionated girl who loves healthy debates. But I don’t do any of these things around people because of my now diagnosed avpd. I often think of what you say here. 😞 anyway so far this truth about me has set me free. Let’s see how I deal with it.
Has anyone experienced anger or rage when inquiring and wanting to talk about an issue, however I'm met with repetitive stonewalling from them and silent treatment. I feel this anger. It didn't start this way in the first year. My body shakes, I'm starved for a mutually working partnership that is together to find solutions. I want to know what they think is the best move and I'm met with a 'could careless response.' and when I inquire on their response they get mad and say, have it your way. Now this dark heavy feeling is sounding like a loss of control. I've gone full blown from patience and understanding to slow frustration, to slow anger to complete loss of my own temper several times. I can hear myself. I can hear myself yelling, hysterically crying like a grown child. I have lost control of my temperament in lack of reciprocity. I on occasion can hear my mind rushing to find an answer.
I would be angry and silently rage because I didn't feel heard or understood! I was always listening, comforting, helping and advising everyone in my life, but when I expressed myself or confronted someone on an issue, I felt dismissed! Through therapy, I learned that it was more important to express my feelings regardless of the response! Instead of feeling anger and raging over not being heard or understood, I feel relieved that I express how I felt! Now, instead of being a sponge for everyone else's emotions, I've developed standards, set boundaries and I've removed people who have an inability to communicate and are negative and "toxic" from my life!
I have experienced similar to this, I think they just do not like you to take the lead or initiative on anything, even a conversation! You are supposed to listen to them or follow what they say, you're not allowed to think for yourself. Also I think their contempt stops them being able to listen and share
You just described my marriage. It's driving me to an early grave. I've accepted my role in the issues that we have and have been working very hard to correct myself but my husband is barely looking at himself. He lives in the overlap of covert narcissism and avoidant personality disorder. I've never felt so alone and frustrated in my life. Another dr. said that covert narcissism and avoidant personality disorder can be comorbid. I believe that to be true. It describes my husband exactly.
I’ve felt like I deal with this, but haven’t seen many talk about it, especially in connection with narcissistic relationships. I really appreciate you making a video on it.
Just an FYI: No "notes" have been showing for the past week or so due to new UI. Just channel and stats and your disclaimer for your videos not being a replacement for therapy. Always thankful for your dedication to the light you shine so bright. Infinite gratitude to you and your team. 💞
I too was looking to get to know more about APD and couldn't find it in the footnotes or video description but searching I found Dr. Ramani has some more videos about it. Maybe that is what used to be linked.
I was a person who feared rejection in previous relationships, so when the narc entered my life and actually made me feel special, I changed my whole life for her to avoid her rejecting me. But she did it all the same when I served her purposes.
I have covert narcissistic parents and I think APD is what I got to survive this rage and judgy blame all the time. It even resembles in my body. I'm 4'11 - short and easy to unsee, still in the body of a little girl with 22. I was always hiding in my room, no love, just rage, no friends to go out to play with. Just me and my Laptop.
You shed a light in the darkness; I am out of mental abusive relationship 5 months now and its still hard, but without your constant help it would be even harder, so thank you for that.
I love you doctor Ramani you made me realize my issue and why I was so vulnerable to the covert narcissistic relationship I had no idea an avoidant personality disorder was even a thing
I've self diagnosed as Avoidant and so this was interesting. Especially not dealing with red flags or recognising them. I have some narcissistic traits as well, not too surprising as that's what I grew up with from a young age. But I don't think I'm malignant or deliberately mean and that's saved me (from myself). Hopefully 😊xx
This video made me really sad, to be honest. I'm afraid people will think of avpd as just 'severe social anxiety' that is easy to overcome, while it is obviously very different. There's Norwegian research that shows it's not the same as social phobia or anxiety at all. Maybe for clinicians it's all the same symptoms wise (initially), but it's possible to have avpd without social anxiety (which is my situation, for example).
People always just dismiss it as social anxiety and try to say they all have the same thing, no one I know really gets it, it's definitely more intense and debilitating than social anxiety which is rough all on its own.
Your videos shed a lot of light on this topic. Initially, I thought my ex had a dismissive avoidant attachment style. Then I realized it may be narcissism. Then I saw it was covert narcissism. And then I realized he was a malignant covert narcissist with very entrenched delusions of grandeur. As someone who grew up with two parents with narcissistic tendencies and an older sister with BPD, I’ve always been an easy target for these types and developed a fearful avoidant attachment style myself. I’m learning to slowly trust others and grow everyday and find happiness within before searching for any validation from without. Thank you so much Dr. Ramani.
Won't be malignant covert narcissist they are 2 different styles. Will be either grandiose, malignant or covert those 3 are usually the starting point of personality then what attachment style they may have from their experience of life is the latter
Woof this one hit so close to home I had to comment. I have avoidant traits (although I'm not sure if I have the PD) and I was involved for 5 years with a covert narcissist. And boy oh boy I was a easy prey for him. Even though I knew something was wrong with the love bombing rationally (it was so exaggerated and hyperbolic) it felt good to know someone loved me back just as much as I loved them. The problem started right away when I realized nope they don't. The red flags became clearer and after being cheated and lied to so much I decided to quit. The overlap that you talk about is so real that I thought I was the narcissist. It was CBT and your channel that gave me the light to pursue and study narcissism more and more, which made me feel understood and that I was not alone. It made the world of a difference in not feeling crazy and worthless.
I was searching RUclips and came across Avoidant personality while I was still in the relationship. There was some correlation but it wasn't clicking. It wasn't until after I discarded i found the narc channels...wish i found them first!!!
My mother is a covert narcissist and has an avoidant personality disorder and ADD. I grew up amongst monsters and I didn't even know it. Plus nobody around me ever opened my eyes to it or tried to save me from the situation. All these destroyed me as a human being. Now I am working on taking my life back, but I have a big price to pay as every negative emotion that I was hidden comes to the surface 10 times a fold, it is an excruciating emotional pain that crates also physical issues.
I never knew APD existed, but makes So much sense now. I think I know ppl with this, but with some underground anger too.. But I've seen that anger before and it comes from Pain and Avoiding/Being afraid to express something (trauma, childhood parental wounds, or lack of self-acceptance, etc.) I'm usually the one ppl go to for non-judgmental listening, so I hope that makes me approachable for anyone I know with Anxiety / APD or similar. This description makes me want to soft-hug everyone with these feelings. Breaks my heart for them. 🦋 ..Now if my friends never reach out, that's ok too.. At least now I know why, and have to just accept things as they are.
Overcoming trauma: Fist, understand how the mind works, how language and words lead the mind into a funnel of suffering. Second, not to see the hurts but to see the possibilities of life. Third, the will und discipline to follow the heart, the self. This is the most difficult point, because the mind is guided by experience. And if this is negative, then you need courage te rely on your feeling, on your heart, on your self-awareness, it takes all your attention to observe your mind and your emotions to find the way to conscious life without being a tool of your imprint. Do it! Be confident and don't care what others think about you!
Thank you Dr. Ramani. Yes!!!! Covert and Avoidance personality. That is the best answer to a question I've been meaning to ask. I believe it can be both personally. 🙏🏼😎
Mine's a boozer too, he'll cut it out now and again but I thought he'd grow out of it, thank goodness my kids did grow out of it, there's alot of info out on how bad booze is for you, his relatives are Polish and Scottish, it's a way of life for these ones!
This is me!!! I have learned to chameleon when I have to, but I would much rather run and hide from anyone and everyone. I am not one to challenge life- I’m to afraid of it. Getting help through therapy was my first challenge, then therapy groups… anything new that upsets my isolation and routine leaves me frozen. I stay quiet until I learn the functions of the group I am in and then I share what I have cognitively learned. I have been in a couple of groups where it took months for me to share anything emotionally personal (not just stating facts). I take singing lessons with an online program and practice by myself, I am doing makeup tutorials to learn how to properly apply makeup and I am doing that alone. Making clothing choices is difficult so I order online and wear it in my own home for a while before attempting to wear it in public. Amazon has become a blessing for easing a measure of my anxieties and dissociations. Even online support groups are easier to handle than in person ones. I was incredibly shy as a child which I now understand was not so much shyness as a lack of parental attunement and proper social mirroring. My mother scared the life out of me and fits into a mess of the cluster b personalities, my dad abandon me (though as an adult I under why) and the rest of my family was loaded with cluster b patterns. I was sadistically abused by my family and sexually abused by a few. That’s not shyness, that’s early dissociation and the development of an avoidant personality. Shame and lack of trust are the core issues I seem to repetitively face in my healing journey- soul injuries from being forced to survive a battle was born into, but was not trained for or equipped to fight in. I am still introverted and shy, but at least I am trying new things. It’s a painfully slow process but slow progress is better than no progress.
Thank you for this information! One parent was basically absent or unavailable as far as parenting was concerned. The other was abusive, particularly verbal and emotional abuse. I was married and had two children with my husband by the time I was seventeen. My husband was sexually abusive throughout our twenty year marriage. The second intimate relationship was with a man my husband chose to be in an intimate relationship with , with me. I had a beautiful relationship with my children until I left my husband. I have been on my own for decades now. The relationship between my grown kids and I has improved. I still struggle with any kind of close relationships. A councillor described the word: “Intimacy” to me me as’ “Into Me See” I have nightmares about the “Me I see” I don’t want my adult children to see that me, that I saw. Thank you Dr Ramani.
Thanks for this wake up call. It makes me understand myself more. I thought that I was giving up on people and becoming more of a hermit. But I think that I am just as you described.
Thank you for doing this, Dr Ramini! I was diagnosed with AVPD and my therapist told me I should pay more attention to all my social interactions because I believed I was displaying narcissistic behaviour when my relationship ended in a very cruel way. Sometimes it is hard to believe in myself not being toxic for others because of my diagnosis. And by monitoring my behaviour I realized that the issues I had with other people where almost always because of my feelings of inadequacy and me retrieving from relationships because I‘m afraid to get hurt. Sometimes it takes up days for me to build up the courage to reach out to someone I really like, because their rejection hurts more than giving in to someone that is reaching out to me and likes me, even if it is a very conflict heavy relationship where my needs aren‘t met. But I‘m changing this right now - I am enjoying my own company more than ever before. The first step to attract healthy people.
Wow, your videos are so good. I feel like you were a fly on the wall watching my life. Those were my parents, that was me and I ended up in a 19 year relationship with a narcissist that felt like a living hell.
This channel helped me so much to reinterpret my own life and discover another side to the story. Since I've began to know myself as the son of a narcissistic father I've been more compassionate towards myself, and so much of my life and my personality began to make actually sense. I can't thank you enough for the time and energy you put into this Dr. Ramani. It means a lot
Dr Ramani .....I just want to say how deeply thankful I am for you .....I feel like reaching through the screen and giving you a big hug and thanking you for your work .....Thankyou so very much . 🤙🏽💙
I was raised by a grandiose narcissist dad, after thirty years I realize why I have the avoidant personality disorder. Because since childhood, I was always shown that I was not enough. I am not healing, thank you Doctor Ramani.
This is a great explanation of how to spot the difference! Thank you. Your videos have really helped me processes everything that’s happened, what a hellish rollercoaster. One week out of finally closing the door on 6 horrifying months of bread-crumbing, devaluation, hoovering and discarding. My sisters and my prior self-work got me through it, but it was so dark for a while there. I really had to protect myself in the end and step away despite having empathy for him. I’ve managed to mostly restore my reality thankfully, but he’s stuck in that one now. Lies reveal truths! Keep looking out for your friends, we are the best medicine for each other. ❤️ 👩🏽🤝👩🏻
in most groups they do teach avoiding and getting breaks for relief from the narcissistic behaviors was certainly practiced because one cannot change them, I have been attempting to rise above being treated so badly that manifesting anything was flatly rejected and frowned upon, by the family of origin, I have to keep in mind, looking at the source of the information, wasn't always true, I am a worthy human being that still adds value to life. Thanks for the information, Dr. Ramani.
This video told the story of my life! With a mother whose main parenting tool was shame/humiliation, I had avoidant personality disorder (and depression) probably from age 10 onward, but only realized it last year, at age 40, while working on healing from my first marriage, -- to an extremely abusive narcissistic man whom I had married at age 23. Yesterday when I saw that my 20th college reunion committee was soliciting a biographical page from me (as from all the alums), I had this feeling like I had seriously overslept and forgotten to take an exam or something, but on a huge scale: like, "Oh no, I forgot to accomplish something with my life for the last 20 years!!!" The years had slipped away while I hid. Thanks as always for the helpful, validating *facts*, Dr. Ramani. Of course, it's a little discouraging to hear that this disorder is so difficult to ameliorate/dislodge.
Your story is really similar to mine. Narc mother. Got into a relationship with a narc guy. Now I just got out and turning 40 in a couple of weeks. I feel like I lost 21 years of my life. I'm always hiding in fear of being put down, suppressed, manipulated and discouraged. I always feel like there will be malevolent people out there that will prey on me once I put myself out there. I don't feel like I can freely go about my life.
@@jenaya_laila2442 I'm so sorry to hear that, Jenaya. I know you're not asking me for advice, but I just want to encourage you to be kind and forgiving to yourself. You didn't deserve any of what happened to you, and if you're like me, some of it happened precisely *because* you are a good, moral person with integrity and determination. I've recently discovered it's easier to go about my life believing (& frequently telling myself) I DO NOT deserve to be treated abusively, or judgmentally, either by strangers or by loved ones. As an example, if a driver is rude to me on the road, my first instinct has long been to internalize their criticism/aggression and then have a terrible day; but as I've begun to believe I didn't deserve their excessive display of anger, and as I've started to have this self-protective reaction more and more often, I've begun to feel a bit more safe & free in the world again. It's amazing how long it takes to make this a regular habit of thought, though! And I'm still not to the point where I can feel comfortable putting myself out there with career-related things. Next step, I guess. Good luck to you!
Dr. Ramani can you please make videos focusing more on how do we heal our inner wounds? The ones which cause us having poorest boundaries and make us vulnerable towards manipulative people?
Thank you for this video. Since being in a long term relationship with a narcissist that was 17 years older than me, I have been wrought with the feeling that my struggle with avoidance of intimacy means I am a covert narcissist. Despite therapy, reassuring myself and reassurance from loved ones, I can’t help but carry the feeling that I am truly a monster and no one around me is brave enough to tell me. I try to be kind and loving in my approach towards others, but fear of making a mistake and hurting someone or making a mistake and seeming foolish makes it very difficult to make plans with coworkers, try new hobbies and put myself out there in the community I live in. It is a daily struggle to break through this mental loop, but I have found by journaling, saying yes more despite fear and asking external sources (that are not narcissistic) for validation I am starting to put myself out there more. It particularly resonated with me when you said a narcissist could worsen the mental struggle an avoidant person feels. I do think that looking back, it gave me a whole new set of worries that I am learning to work through. As always, I appreciate your video and the grounding presence you exhibit.
Wow! Dr. Ramini, this was *super* helpful and a *massive* relief. The man I'm dating, who was a dear friend of many years, is clearly on the autistic spectrum and has self described avoidant attachment style issues (I know, he's *dating*, yay, him! ☺️). Before he revealed his romantic feelings for me, he expressed a concern that he was a narcissist. Having watched your video, I told him that narcissists usually don't care about being narcissists, just about getting caught. Now, he wants to take his time and occasionally pulls back to deal with his autistic and avoidant issues, but after being in so many narcissistic relationships, it a relief to have my understanding of how narcissism woks and that I'm *not* ina narcissist relationship. I just have to deal with my own avoidant tendencies, but at least my gentlemen friend is going to take things slow, which is a good thing!
Thank you so much Dr Ramani! That was a very concise and highly enlightening breakdown. The reaction to shame 'being anything but anger' as a hallmark indicator (in contrast to covert narcissism and ignoring comorbidities also) was particularly insightful!
Dr Ramani , Thank you for doing this, You just confirmed my self diagnosis, it means so much to me, I always felt why me, why do I always end up vulnerable, now I know thank you so so much, you are an angel.
I never used to be this way, but after my Mom died, was ambushed for 4.5 years in Narcissistic brothers attacked me to change trust terms. So since I'm continuing to heal, I am still having to g back to work, they stole my retirement, worked really hard my whole life, just want to continue no contact with toxic envious destructive siblings, so avoidant stuff is also healing from abuse. Life is about bouncing back being resilient, life isn't always fair.
Reminds me of Lost Child and Scapegoat roles in family. The more I heal from the abuse of those roles the less fear and shame I feel. Lots of inner work unraveling lies we are told to see the truth of our worth. I do agree that a person with Avoidant style from being shamed and abused is a logical way they would protect themselves. They learned to avoid the Narcissistic people in their lives and avoid behavior that could trigger abuse from Narcissist. If one can find a trustworthy person or therapist to guide and teach how to be in the world with better boundaries and tools to navigate difficult people, I think this would help. I never had anyone teach me how to feel safe in the world nor feel I had permission or a right to self actualize. Too many abusive people in sheep’s clothing. But thru Dr Ramani, I am learning to feel better about myself and more resilient. Took years, but making progress. Figure out the toxic people and get them out of your life. That stops the wounding cycle. That worked for me. Now I am learning to discern who is and who is NOT safe. Now I need to learn a new way to be with people.
This really makes sence. I think I understand my patterns better now. But it also makes sence that there's a lot I can do about it... Thank you Dr Ramani, I'm so glad you talk about these topics... and make it easy to understand...
damn... that hit me harder than any video so far. with autism and childhood abuse I've always been afraid of people shaming and humiliating me(my best friend this is in front of girls i was infatuated with) and giving them a reason to bully me and I never raged back, I just hid away from bullies and "friends". Because I was so withdrawn and felt horrible when people I cared about suffered, feeling inadequate and useless in helping them(borderlines who threatened suicide who were in an abusive relationship with narcissists), yet putting all my energy into trying to avoid violent escalation between my peers, trying to please everyone and help everyone at my own expense, I was labeled a covert narcissist by people who knew I was a victim of abuse, of cults, and struggled with these patterns. They would ask me to open up only to use me, rage at me, and guilt me, to the point I felt worthless, and then discarded me. I just wanted to love them but experienced consistent cold, love bombing/discarding cycles from these damaged people and decided to not date anyone because I felt too broken. I even tried to convince therapists I was narcissistic, that I felt psychopathic, but they dismissed it as there was a pattern of caring for other people, a presence of emotional empathy, even if the cognitive empathy was distorted by autism. These mental health videos help a lot, Dr. Ramani Thank you from the bottom of my heart for focusing on these topics.
I sincerely apologize if i triggered you in any way, if i caused any negative thoughts. With my comments about nuclear family etc. I know you've been through hell, so i hope i didn't make things worse.
I Liked this video so much! It's so hard to find videos that approach about Avoidant Personality Disorder. I was diagnosed with this disorder and I fight everyday to get more quality of life. I would love to watch more videos about this thematic (Avoidant Personality Disorder).
I'm sure I have this AVPD. If I get into a situation of difference of opinion or having to call someone out I get terrified of "Causing a scene". Perfect for your average exploitative narcissist.
I'm a polyglot, and English is the fourth language I learned. So, the way I think is some times quite differently than an American born person. My culture is different in how I think and do things, and sometimes what I think, say or do regency's that. I've learned a lot since. Thoughts which come naturally to people in this country, didn't it don't sideways come to me... So one time I was asked to describe my Narc in one word, it was quite difficult, because I tell stories, not use one word to describe a whole person. Buy I was surprised on how quickly the word "DIFFICULT" came to mind... Yes, difficult, and since I've been using that word to describe him. Now in your intro doctor, you use the word DIFFICULT relationships, a word that I normally wouldn't have used, but my instinct knew, and it just popped out. I was so proud of myself because hey, I'm becoming better at English and this culture... Yes, he's mighty DIFFICULT!!!
I dealt with 2 years of this shit. I'm so glad I'm free. Still traumatized but who wouldn't be? The only thing I can do is educate myself to make sense of it all! Knowledge is power. Knowledge will help me heal faster. Thank you for all that you do. You're helping so many people.
I was just discarded by an avoidant. Her ex husband was an extremely abusive narcissist. My heart is absolutely crushed for her. It’s a two fold heartbreak.
The video preview reads talking about Dependent personality. I was really hoping for that one. I do appreciate this clarification of covert and avoidant though. (Really looking forward to the video on DPD and the narcissist!)
My covert narcissist mom turned both me and my brother into people with avoidant personalities. You learn to be hypervigilant of any slight changes in tone, how anything and everything can be taken as a slight against them, so it's easier and just plainly energy-conserving to avoid being around them at all. And now you're hypervigilant in any social situation, which is exhausting, so you avoid it.
The shame is more of the subconscious in the NPD and not integrated with the personality. The APD is very aware of their shame (even if unaware of the source of it) and wear it as their own. Thoughts of self harming from the CNPD would be generated by critical external forces. They are hypervigilant to criticism. The APD is hypervigilant to "Confirmation" of their perceived inadequacy. The values between NPD and APD are almost mutually exclusive, almost ego dystonic or "toxic" for the other to wear. That may be why it is more common for APD to appear comorbid with cluster A schizoid or schizotypal conditions. Confusion can come from the Avoidant's hypervigilance to external confirmation of their shame coupled with the mild autistic quality of Cluster A and an inability to "get" or properly "read" subtle or triangulated signals (often until some critical mass is reached) Just my own subjective inside look at the dilemma.
@@delaramv1 Thank you :-) I haven't read any books on the subject of personality disorders yet but my online sources are here on RUclips, the Papa Bear, Momma Bear and Brother Bear trifecta of Professor Sam Vaknin, Doctor Ramani and Doctor Todd Grande (His older video encapsulations of the personality disorders)
@@martineldritch I see! Thank you, you have very sharp observations about this. I can't seem to find the trifecta videos that you mentioned from Prof Vankin, I haven't watched his videos before, always a bit wary.
I have Avoidant Personality Disorder. My narcissistic wife pursued me. I was so happy someone was interested in that I didn't see the red flags. She rushed me into marriage after a few months. Fast forward to the 2nd year of marriage and she was blaming me for everything and I believed it. When she told me she was divorcing me for "ruining" the marriage with my inadequacies, I actually begged her to stay. She just scoffed at my weakness. Now that she has been gone for a few months, I am seeing more clearly what she was doing to me.
I was working on my own self in silence and meditation when I was tortured by management. I was making progress. Regaining old memories to work on. All of which was lost. Years of work being opened up by family suicide based grief that allowed me to do shadow work. That abuse to me, and the loss made me feel like my family members died for nothing.
I'm an adult and I still struggle with this. I have so many issues and my relationship with my narcissistic mother is so strained and difficult. Anxiety is my daily companion.
I’m finding this all discouraging. I struggle with anxiety from abuse and trauma, and am doing therapy and learning as much as I can. But honestly sometimes these videos leave me feeling confused and hopeless about it all. It all seems rather doom and gloom sometimes without much compassion for those with these ‘disorders’. 😕
Yes sometimes knowledge is too burdensome therefore you find a hobby weathers walks in the park painting tennis and you relax with them Grant yourself the mercy in the compassion that you need for yourself, sometimes you get a glimpse of what you needed to learn, while life should be enjoyable other parts of it was meant to learn for the future I only say this because the only compassion I found was patting myself in the back cuz no one else would take care I hope it goes better for you 🌹
Is anyone who watches these videos ever terrified that they’re the narcissist or is it just me? My therapist thinks I’m closer to having AVPD than NPD, but the anxiety is still there.. which I guess kind of proves my therapist’s point lol
Oh yeah, I feel like I've been infected by my father, because he was one of the people raising me after all, and surely I must have some of his traits. That's how I've been living for 20+ years, thinking that if I let anyone too close to me, that surely they'll get infected by whatever was passed down psychologically. It's only these last 2-3 years that I've begun understanding how fucked up of a worldview I've developed and taken steps to improving my situation.
Even moderately experienced and competent therapists know better than to introduce the idea of their client having narcissistic traits, let alone having narcissistic personality disorder, because of the risk of the client stopping therapy. Notice how you used the word "terrified"? There's just so much stigma and animosity towards people with this diagnosis and clinicians know this. Also, such a diagnosis should only be made with A LOT of observation, questions etc. This takes time. If you have a therapist discussing or driving things towards a diagnosis with, say, fewer than 8-10 sessions I'd be highly skeptical of their confirmation bias and clinical training. Always draft a list of questions and quiz a new therapist thoroughly before starting with them. If they don't want to answer or something just feels off move on.
There is another aspect to this. One might do this, not primarily because of their insecurities, but because their predator narcissist has to always win, which means the narcissists victim have to always lose. The attitude itself is wrong, and lacks any semblance of care or love. The best scenario is to leave ASAP. But narcissists like to find ways to trap their victim, like using their morality against them (marriage is forever; when the narcissist never actually married beyond legally, and involving children). If they can successfully use one's morality to trap the person, the damage done to the victim can be substantial. And someone so trapped might just begin seeing "soft" narcissism in many people. This is demoralizing. Stop eating the rusty iron filings that are rusting your nervous system and prefrontal cortex. Search "Morley Robbins" -- he gives the answer away for free.
If an Avoidant marries a Covert, the little needles and jabs from a Covert might carry more power over the other than in a more healthy environment? Which might explain why the avoidant might “stick around so long”? It’s often asked, “Why did you stay so long?.” I’m still trying to work that one out.
Absolutely, this is more-or-less the situation I'm in (trying to get better, but it's hard), and a related idea is "Trauma Bonding". They don't even need to do much in the way of "love bombing" to hook someone already desperately low self-esteem and lacking in boundaries for them to violate, and then the trauma bonding (let alone abuse that leads to depression) makes escape almost impossible. A hard thing to unpack as someone who has a lot of avoidant behaviours is how much of what I do now are patterns I built to deal with childhood issues, versus what's built up in my adult life (and even now) thanks to the covert narc. And since my narc is still around and I can't easily get away, that constant negative input from them makes any the positive things I try to do to heal a major uphill battle.
@@NigelBree That is exactly it! It never occurred to me that, as a child, I had no self esteem. Maybe we didn’t know the extent of it because people gave us credit for being something else? I was tall, quiet, and reasonably attractive. I got credit for being confident, and at school, I was occasionally put in charge. If I didn’t throw my weight around, I got credit for being humble. This doesn’t mean I thought I earned respect, I merely struggled to maintain the illusion. And as an adult, like you say, between the trauma bonding and accepting the blame for pretty much everything and everyone, trying to make a healthy place is a giant challenge. This morning I heard, for the hundredth time, that “journaling” and “written meditation “ work with our brains in ways even therapy doesn’t. I’ve been avoiding it, but... this morning I decided to give it a shot. I’m determined to heal. Good luck to you too. With this new information, we have hope.
Thank you for clarifying this issue and discussing the differences and similarities between avoidant personality and covert narcissism. I have found this confusing to differentiate but your explanations here were really very helpful!🙏🤗
I'm sure I have avoidant personality disorder. I also have borderline personality disorder. I just got discarded by a friend who is a narcissist. I kept going back, but now I'm staying away, but it's hard. She really huft me emotionally, but I loved her, however, it was unrequited love. The most painful thing I've ever endured. She was my onky friend, and only online. I don't have any real life friends. I've Isolated myself because I do feel socially inept.
She shamed me to oblivion and now I live there. (A poem I wrote about my mother:)
That's good--I like your poem.
That one line is the poem?
@@dmills7375 concise
More like a quote but none the less a good one 😊
The narcissistic abuse has made me feel so humiliated and dehumanised my entire life. Inadequacy and shame. The narcissist's deep sense of worthlessness projected onto the scapegoated child. It definitely feels like avoidant personality disorder. Thank you Dr Ramani. 💔
You are not alone and you can find your way through this. Look right, look left, there are many of us. Good luck 👍
Ah don't value what they say, put any truth into it, they want to make us crumble like big Godzillas🐲 walking through a quiet town which wasn't bothering anyone anyway!
@@chriswyma145 best to know they're wacko from the get go by observing how they treat others, they don't accept themselves and put pressure on us, doing well enough for us, to *** and **** now don't forget to **** plus be the life of the party 🎉 so they'll get invited and have someplace to go!
big time YES!
Same here...went from narc mother to narc husband. My eyes were opened a year ago. Left now but I don't know if I still stand a chance in life at my age with my life experiences..
My narc mother is a covert narcissist she projected everything onto me. I have an avoidant personality and avoidant attachment style.
@Kia Heartbreakingly, I see that in my son too. His dad has NPS. I hope you find the best mentor to aid you in recovery to happy and healthy fullness of life. It’s hard to know where to turn and who to trust to get healing from APD.
Same.
@ Kia RUclips . I feel like narcs are like a toxic cancer. Similar to their gossip I have heard the saying plant a seed and watch it grow. Cancer is like that too, it’s horrible and it grows! I am glad that you have awareness now and hopefully it can help you in your path in life. Dr. Ramani and others are helping me to bridge how narcissism or those behaviors are in my opinion a direct link to criminal activity, I wish you healing thoughts in humanity.🤔❤️
The most sickening thing about avoidant personality disorder is how much people drill into your head that it’s “your fault” when it’s actually a result of severe abuse. It’s not my fault and never was.
However I agree you having avpd might not be your fault however it is still your responsibility to try and be the best version of yourself. Make sure you use it as an explanation for certain situations but not an excuse because it's easy and you'll get comfortable in the victim position.
Everyone can heal. Most avoidants just dont want to.
You have 2 sides of that coin. It is true that someone with APD is a victim of emotional abuse. However, that doesn’t mean that, as you become an adult, you don’t have some responsibility for this condition and that you should’nt own actively doing something about it. It is not your fault but that doesn’t mean you are not responsible for helping yourself.
It’s your fault how you hurt other ppl though
@@Loch1210exactly, it’s very easy to be a victim but hurt people hurt people so I wish they can also see how being abused or hurt does not excuse them being hurtful to others regardless of what causes them to do it. Being a perpetual victim is not ok because accountability will never be taken and growth will never happen. Very difficult disorder to deal with
My father is a covert narcissist. In my childhood home, I was often shamed for expressing my emotions (my sister did most of the shaming). I was also terrified of interacting with people and thought I was faulty and worthless as a person. A good example is when a group of kids tried befriending me, but I assumed that they only wanted to hurt me, so I stayed away from them. But at the same time, I yarned for a connection with someone, to have someone in my life who'd tell me I was ok.
I was a terrified kid, who had also been overprotected by my mother, so I had no idea how relationships work or how to recognize dangerous people. So my first relationships were with toxic people (first a psychopath, then a covert narcissist). I stayed in my toxic relationships because I was certain I couldn't find anyone else who would tolerate me. My self-esteem is low and I definitely don't like interacting with people if I don't know that they like me. But I'm slowly working on my traumas, starting with identifying emotions, etc.
I'm so glad you're doing the work!
Learning about ourselves,
Self Love and Self-care is the key!
💞
@@sea-spice Not really. But hey, that's why I'm trying to educate myself about these things and learning healthy coping mechanisms.
So, how is this working out for you? I know it’s a year later. I just realized I’m going through the same thing and I’m curious about how to navigate this.
My husband acts like my emotions and sadness and despair is yelling and anger.
Dr. Ramani, Just know that all your hard work, does not go in vain. Do you realize how many people you help? Every day, you’re educating with such passion and that’s what makes you, SPECIAL! Thank you!❤️
Yes!!
I enjoy being recognized and my experiences understood and my feelings legitimized
;I almost believed my ex was not aware of his narcissistic behaviors and cared about my mental health. Your stories and explanations always have been eye opening and spot on. I swear my 2' exes graduated with full honors from narcissist universities
Yes she is a compassionate companion and a voice of reason that resonates with us, thank you dr. Ramani.
The difference between someone who has an Avoidance Personality Disorder and a Narcissists is one is capable of empathy and remorse and the other one isn't!
Doesn make it he avoidant way worse than? Because they hurt their partner with the same tactics as a narc without empathy does.
@@neen9438true
Avoidants lack empathy too. They see others as objects to fulfill their needs and discard them as soon as they are not needed.
A lot of narcissist use the avoidant card to make as their wish and avoid any kind of accountability and responsability.
@@juancorzo5081 That’s precisely the opposite of what’s true, but good take.
A narc mom and an avoid dad is just the lovely combination I was rewarded with. May God help us all.
They are still people and you can’t possible know how they feel unless you were them. Maybe God gave you these parents for a reason
Eye Of Now I know exactly how they feel. One parent takes pleasure in watching their children suffer and openly laughs about it (narc) and the other doesn’t care to be involved and let’s the narc run the shit show (Avoidant)
God doesn’t exist in the literal sense of picking and choosing parents.
Eye of Now has some research to do.
Same. It was a shit show indeed. The avoidant parent is such an enabler and abuser in their own way.
@@AntiVegan please stop invalidating other people’s feelings. Just because someone has gone through abuse doesn’t justify them treating other people badly. This pattern of if I have suffered then others/my children should suffer is toxic.
I have AVPD and it gets better as you get older but my life was wasted. My father would shame me growing up and embarrass me. I felt so humiliated. The “friends” that I had would take advantage of me. My bf could not understand why I didn’t stand up for myself and eventually left me. We were living together and he brought his new girlfriend home once and did not let me in my apartment. He was such a “ nice” guy from the mid-west. I don’t understand why people are so cruel, even nice people.
Your boyfriend may do nice things, but a "nice person"
would not bring his girlfriend home and keep you out!
My husband did nice things and some selfish inconsiderate things! I ended the relationship!
Nice people care about you and your feelings and it "reflects" in their actions!
Your bf sounds like a narc! I'm avoidant and got preyed on by narcs for years, I let all the good ones pass me by because I couldn't read them properly. I feel your pain. ♡
gosh, that sounds so familiar.
@@teal1010 but aren't we all bit selfish and inconsiderate??
If your boundaries are weak it's surprising how many people will take advantage of that, just because they can.
They feel inadequate and they are very sensitive to criticism. Because of this they avoid interaction due to the fear of being rejected.
It’s not our fault that we are this way. Especially if we were scapegoated children.
Hey Narc Surviver! I love your channel. I totally relate to you and your videos really resonate with me. You're awesome 😘😘🖤
I'm gonna time mine next time he dissapears after I've brought bring up another time he wasn't there for me, last time I thought he was just getting another beer but no, he went to his man cave, his very own self-made refugee camp!
@@HerPrincess that's what I said "He's awesome!" and Dr. Ramini's our 👑 forever Queen!
@@missyk2984 it is your responsibility to change it though. I am. It's tough but I'm working on it. You can too. Work on embracing your own emotions first
Dr Ramani, thank you for sharing your knowledge with us, it’s kind of you.
I have this avoidant PD, I’m quite sure. My parents could easily be classified as narcissistic, along with some other difficult person tags. I’m super tense and restricted with people. I might seem relax and funny - to those who don’t know - but I’m avoiding all close and intense interactions and relationships. I’m always alone by myself.
I heard a therapist say that most fearful avoidants had a narcissistic parent. Its the main cause. It is treatable.
I had a very shy personality growing up but I wasn't self doubting myself like i do now. I feel the need to apologize to everyone I know for just talking. I am learning how to have a real conversation with people, but it's hard when I walk away to not not pick everything I said and did, and then feel bad or even cry for not being a better conversationalist. My ex would list off the things I needed to change or be better at when being around people, so I am always second guessing myself now. This is where I am now, I wasn't before I was married, just shy, now I have allot of these symptoms. I will talk to my therapist about this. Thanks!
Esther Anders, I had the same experiences of second guessing myself and self blame when interacting with ppl. Throughout the years I started getting angry as to why did I care so much, and was sick and tired of feeling this way. Now these thoughts still come to me sporadically, so I catch myself and say in my head “ I do not care”. Ironically enough this anger has helped me feel better about myself. 🙏🏼❤️
How arrogant is this ex-boyfriend, listing things HE thought you should do to improve your social interactions!?!? That makes me so angry!
@@ladybaabaa3294 he was my husband and we were married for almost 13 years. In the end I didn't want to go anywhere, because I could never say or do the right thing in his eyes. He turned my best friends against me, if he couldn't flirt with them, he would make them leave, because he would bad mouth me so bad they didn't want to me my friend anymore. He told me my family trashed talked me when I left the room, so even talking with family was hard, because I thought everyone in the entire world hated me and I should be grateful that he was willing to put up with pathetic old me. If I had only known it was him who I needed to get rid of and I would get back to me and people wanted to be my friend they just didn't like him. Thankfully God brought a women in my life who had been through the same thing and worse and helped me see this wasnt healthy and I needed help. I finally reached out and got help. Been divorced for 3 years and growing everyday. I just started feeling more confident, and now I don't run when someone comes up to talk to me.
@@estheranders1502 Good for you! I'm so glad you got out and away from the awful distortions of the narc abuse.
I feel the need to apologize for speaking too, practically everyone I know talks on and on and over me and I patiently listen but when I talk I feel like no one wants to hear me and that I'm talking too much even if it's only a sentence or two I've said, so I wind up apologizing a lot for speaking let alone everything else. I also say thank you too much. It's weird, I make it weird.
Narc parents shame/guilt their children into being avoidant, then when the child is avoidant they use that against them while smear campaigning.
So much of my life just became clear… My profound shame is so overwhelming that I will avoid every opportunity to bond unless I’m forced to do so. Last week I explained to someone that I was shamed so desperately as a child by peers, teachers, family, etc., that I withdraw at the first inkling I’m not appreciated.
Outwardly, I portray the “I don’t care what anyone thinks of me” attitude because I was not able to express myself in front of my family. If I had I would have been mercilessly teased. I had to learn to look confident even when I’m dying inside, which I guess was a good thing.
Thank you. I'm happy that there is someone who gets it.
Funny at 33 years old I'm understanding myself better, big part thanks to you.
It's a fine line the developing psyche must walk between avoiding narcissistic intentions of others and manifesting them to survive.
Thank you for all you do Dr R 🙏🏻👌🏻💜
The line's about as narrow as the ants use to track the path, I agree with you, nothing short of a tight rope, complete balancing act, our umbrella 🌂 in a hurricane isn't much use there either!
@Josee Noel I love your analogy... our sence of goodness is our umbrella with which we are infected / protected by those who show us love before we even know what it is called ... spread kindness it is our communal immunity 💜
When I read the comments, I find my story, I find what I wanted to express written in it, I find people who know what I suffered with a narcissistic mother... I feel relieved that there is someone who understands me in this world
I believe APD is worse, then social anxiety. I already had it from both my narcissistic parents. But when I got out on house arrest for 8 months at just 13, losing contact with my friends. And adding the APD, I never went back to socializing and made it hard for me to keep close relationships. It’s not to say I still don’t try to come out, but I do always have that feeling like I’m dying by just talking to someone
I really appreciate this series reviewing the various mental health conditions, which is great 'general information' for all of us to have! as I keep learning, I am becoming increasingly clear about the challenging relationships in my life, I am feeling more strong within myself, and I am drawing boundaries with greater ease.
Yeaahhh!! Great job. Same here 😀
@@Picca65 I know! its like a steady stream of 'dr. ramani' into my mind is creating deep shifts from the inside out!
It sad that our tragedies have become the pattern of who we are 🤦♀️I’ve often wondered what type of person I would have been without all the trauma 🤷♀️thanks doc I’ve learned a lot about myself by watching your videos 😇Knowledge is Power 💐🙏
Look at the wonderful person you have become!
💞
Your comment brought me to tears. I often think this. I draw, write and sing. I’m also a very opinionated girl who loves healthy debates. But I don’t do any of these things around people because of my now diagnosed avpd. I often think of what you say here. 😞 anyway so far this truth about me has set me free. Let’s see how I deal with it.
Has anyone experienced anger or rage when inquiring and wanting to talk about an issue, however I'm met with repetitive stonewalling from them and silent treatment. I feel this anger. It didn't start this way in the first year. My body shakes, I'm starved for a mutually working partnership that is together to find solutions. I want to know what they think is the best move and I'm met with a 'could careless response.' and when I inquire on their response they get mad and say, have it your way. Now this dark heavy feeling is sounding like a loss of control. I've gone full blown from patience and understanding to slow frustration, to slow anger to complete loss of my own temper several times. I can hear myself. I can hear myself yelling, hysterically crying like a grown child. I have lost control of my temperament in lack of reciprocity. I on occasion can hear my mind rushing to find an answer.
I would be angry and silently rage because I didn't feel heard or understood!
I was always listening, comforting, helping and advising everyone in my life, but when I expressed myself or confronted someone on an issue, I felt dismissed!
Through therapy,
I learned that it was more important to express my feelings regardless of the response! Instead of feeling anger and raging over not being heard or understood, I feel relieved that I express how I felt!
Now, instead of being a sponge for everyone else's emotions, I've developed standards, set boundaries and I've removed people who have an inability to communicate and are negative and "toxic" from my life!
I have experienced similar to this, I think they just do not like you to take the lead or initiative on anything, even a conversation! You are supposed to listen to them or follow what they say, you're not allowed to think for yourself. Also I think their contempt stops them being able to listen and share
I can understand because I lived the exact same thing but I had to leave for mental health and honouring my life. What makes you stay ?
Welcome to my world. Cant talk adult with a child. Thats what I finally accepted.
You just described my marriage. It's driving me to an early grave. I've accepted my role in the issues that we have and have been working very hard to correct myself but my husband is barely looking at himself. He lives in the overlap of covert narcissism and avoidant personality disorder. I've never felt so alone and frustrated in my life. Another dr. said that covert narcissism and avoidant personality disorder can be comorbid. I believe that to be true. It describes my husband exactly.
I’ve felt like I deal with this, but haven’t seen many talk about it, especially in connection with narcissistic relationships. I really appreciate you making a video on it.
Just an FYI: No "notes" have been showing for the past week or so due to new UI. Just channel and stats and your disclaimer for your videos not being a replacement for therapy.
Always thankful for your dedication to the light you shine so bright. Infinite gratitude to you and your team. 💞
I also was not able to see any notes beyond the disclaimer.
I too was looking to get to know more about APD and couldn't find it in the footnotes or video description but searching I found Dr. Ramani has some more videos about it. Maybe that is what used to be linked.
I was a person who feared rejection in previous relationships, so when the narc entered my life and actually made me feel special, I changed my whole life for her to avoid her rejecting me. But she did it all the same when I served her purposes.
I have covert narcissistic parents and I think APD is what I got to survive this rage and judgy blame all the time.
It even resembles in my body. I'm 4'11 - short and easy to unsee, still in the body of a little girl with 22. I was always hiding in my room, no love, just rage, no friends to go out to play with. Just me and my Laptop.
I’m glad you’re getting into all of this stuff.
You shed a light in the darkness; I am out of mental abusive relationship 5 months now and its still hard, but without your constant help it would be even harder, so thank you for that.
I love you doctor Ramani you made me realize my issue and why I was so vulnerable to the covert narcissistic relationship I had no idea an avoidant personality disorder was even a thing
I've self diagnosed as Avoidant and so this was interesting. Especially not dealing with red flags or recognising them. I have some narcissistic traits as well, not too surprising as that's what I grew up with from a young age. But I don't think I'm malignant or deliberately mean and that's saved me (from myself). Hopefully 😊xx
This video made me really sad, to be honest. I'm afraid people will think of avpd as just 'severe social anxiety' that is easy to overcome, while it is obviously very different.
There's Norwegian research that shows it's not the same as social phobia or anxiety at all. Maybe for clinicians it's all the same symptoms wise (initially), but it's possible to have avpd without social anxiety (which is my situation, for example).
People always just dismiss it as social anxiety and try to say they all have the same thing, no one I know really gets it, it's definitely more intense and debilitating than social anxiety which is rough all on its own.
Thanks. Dr. Ramini, You are really doing a great service to people in these situations. 😊😊👌
Your videos shed a lot of light on this topic. Initially, I thought my ex had a dismissive avoidant attachment style. Then I realized it may be narcissism. Then I saw it was covert narcissism. And then I realized he was a malignant covert narcissist with very entrenched delusions of grandeur.
As someone who grew up with two parents with narcissistic tendencies and an older sister with BPD, I’ve always been an easy target for these types and developed a fearful avoidant attachment style myself. I’m learning to slowly trust others and grow everyday and find happiness within before searching for any validation from without. Thank you so much Dr. Ramani.
Won't be malignant covert narcissist they are 2 different styles. Will be either grandiose, malignant or covert those 3 are usually the starting point of personality then what attachment style they may have from their experience of life is the latter
Woof this one hit so close to home I had to comment. I have avoidant traits (although I'm not sure if I have the PD) and I was involved for 5 years with a covert narcissist. And boy oh boy I was a easy prey for him. Even though I knew something was wrong with the love bombing rationally (it was so exaggerated and hyperbolic) it felt good to know someone loved me back just as much as I loved them. The problem started right away when I realized nope they don't. The red flags became clearer and after being cheated and lied to so much I decided to quit. The overlap that you talk about is so real that I thought I was the narcissist. It was CBT and your channel that gave me the light to pursue and study narcissism more and more, which made me feel understood and that I was not alone. It made the world of a difference in not feeling crazy and worthless.
I was searching RUclips and came across Avoidant personality while I was still in the relationship. There was some correlation but it wasn't clicking. It wasn't until after I discarded i found the narc channels...wish i found them first!!!
My mother is a covert narcissist and has an avoidant personality disorder and ADD. I grew up amongst monsters and I didn't even know it. Plus nobody around me ever opened my eyes to it or tried to save me from the situation. All these destroyed me as a human being. Now I am working on taking my life back, but I have a big price to pay as every negative emotion that I was hidden comes to the surface 10 times a fold, it is an excruciating emotional pain that crates also physical issues.
Thank you so much for taking the time to do this series in May, Dr. Ramani! It's greatly appreciated!!
I never knew APD existed, but makes So much sense now. I think I know ppl with this, but with some underground anger too.. But I've seen that anger before and it comes from Pain and Avoiding/Being afraid to express something (trauma, childhood parental wounds, or lack of self-acceptance, etc.) I'm usually the one ppl go to for non-judgmental listening, so I hope that makes me approachable for anyone I know with Anxiety / APD or similar. This description makes me want to soft-hug everyone with these feelings. Breaks my heart for them. 🦋
..Now if my friends never reach out, that's ok too.. At least now I know why, and have to just accept things as they are.
Overcoming trauma:
Fist, understand how the mind works, how language and words lead the mind into a funnel of suffering.
Second, not to see the hurts but to see the possibilities of life.
Third, the will und discipline to follow the heart, the self. This is the most difficult point, because the mind is guided by experience. And if this is negative, then you need courage te rely on your feeling, on your heart, on your self-awareness, it takes all your attention to observe your mind and your emotions to find the way to conscious life without being a tool of your imprint.
Do it! Be confident and don't care what others think about you!
Thank you Dr. Ramani. Yes!!!! Covert and Avoidance personality. That is the best answer to a question I've been meaning to ask. I believe it can be both personally. 🙏🏼😎
I watch every video. You have helped me out so much. I've been living with a narcissist alcoholic for 14 years.
Mine's a boozer too, he'll cut it out now and again but I thought he'd grow out of it, thank goodness my kids did grow out of it, there's alot of info out on how bad booze is for you, his relatives are Polish and Scottish, it's a way of life for these ones!
This is me!!! I have learned to chameleon when I have to, but I would much rather run and hide from anyone and everyone. I am not one to challenge life- I’m to afraid of it.
Getting help through therapy was my first challenge, then therapy groups… anything new that upsets my isolation and routine leaves me frozen. I stay quiet until I learn the functions of the group I am in and then I share what I have cognitively learned. I have been in a couple of groups where it took months for me to share anything emotionally personal (not just stating facts). I take singing lessons with an online program and practice by myself, I am doing makeup tutorials to learn how to properly apply makeup and I am doing that alone. Making clothing choices is difficult so I order online and wear it in my own home for a while before attempting to wear it in public. Amazon has become a blessing for easing a measure of my anxieties and dissociations. Even online support groups are easier to handle than in person ones.
I was incredibly shy as a child which I now understand was not so much shyness as a lack of parental attunement and proper social mirroring. My mother scared the life out of me and fits into a mess of the cluster b personalities, my dad abandon me (though as an adult I under why) and the rest of my family was loaded with cluster b patterns. I was sadistically abused by my family and sexually abused by a few. That’s not shyness, that’s early dissociation and the development of an avoidant personality. Shame and lack of trust are the core issues I seem to repetitively face in my healing journey- soul injuries from being forced to survive a battle was born into, but was not trained for or equipped to fight in.
I am still introverted and shy, but at least I am trying new things. It’s a painfully slow process but slow progress is better than no progress.
Thank you for this information! One parent was basically absent or unavailable as far as parenting was concerned. The other was abusive, particularly verbal and emotional abuse.
I was married and had two children with my husband by the time I was seventeen.
My husband was sexually abusive throughout our twenty year marriage.
The second intimate relationship was with a man my husband chose to be in an intimate relationship with , with me.
I had a beautiful relationship with my children until I left my husband.
I have been on my own for decades now.
The relationship between my grown kids and I has improved. I still struggle with any kind of close relationships.
A councillor described the word: “Intimacy” to me me as’ “Into Me See”
I have nightmares about the “Me I see”
I don’t want my adult children to see that me, that I saw.
Thank you Dr Ramani.
Thank you so much for your videos!!!! You are a God sent!!!!! 💯💞🙌🏼🙉🙈🙊👍
Thanks for this wake up call. It makes me understand myself more. I thought that I was giving up on people and becoming more of a hermit. But I think that I am just as you described.
Thank God we Have Doctor Ramani in Our World Helping us
Wow. This hit home. Thank you, Dr. Ramani. I saw on Trevor Noah’s show. It’s great that your insights are reaching more people.
Thank you for doing this, Dr Ramini!
I was diagnosed with AVPD and my therapist told me I should pay more attention to all my social interactions because I believed I was displaying narcissistic behaviour when my relationship ended in a very cruel way. Sometimes it is hard to believe in myself not being toxic for others because of my diagnosis. And by monitoring my behaviour I realized that the issues I had with other people where almost always because of my feelings of inadequacy and me retrieving from relationships because I‘m afraid to get hurt.
Sometimes it takes up days for me to build up the courage to reach out to someone I really like, because their rejection hurts more than giving in to someone that is reaching out to me and likes me, even if it is a very conflict heavy relationship where my needs aren‘t met. But I‘m changing this right now - I am enjoying my own company more than ever before. The first step to attract healthy people.
Wow, your videos are so good. I feel like you were a fly on the wall watching my life. Those were my parents, that was me and I ended up in a 19 year relationship with a narcissist that felt like a living hell.
This channel helped me so much to reinterpret my own life and discover another side to the story. Since I've began to know myself as the son of a narcissistic father I've been more compassionate towards myself, and so much of my life and my personality began to make actually sense. I can't thank you enough for the time and energy you put into this Dr. Ramani. It means a lot
Dr Ramani .....I just want to say how deeply thankful I am for you .....I feel like reaching through the screen and giving you a big hug and thanking you for your work .....Thankyou so very much . 🤙🏽💙
I was raised by a grandiose narcissist dad, after thirty years I realize why I have the avoidant personality disorder. Because since childhood, I was always shown that I was not enough. I am not healing, thank you Doctor Ramani.
This is a great explanation of how to spot the difference! Thank you. Your videos have really helped me processes everything that’s happened, what a hellish rollercoaster. One week out of finally closing the door on
6 horrifying months of bread-crumbing, devaluation, hoovering and discarding.
My sisters and my prior self-work got me through it, but it was so dark for a while there. I really had to protect myself in the end and step away despite having empathy for him. I’ve managed to mostly restore my reality thankfully, but he’s stuck in that one now. Lies reveal truths!
Keep looking out for your friends, we are the best medicine for each other. ❤️ 👩🏽🤝👩🏻
in most groups they do teach avoiding and getting breaks for relief from the narcissistic behaviors was certainly practiced because one cannot change them, I have been attempting to rise above being treated so badly that manifesting anything was flatly rejected and frowned upon, by the family of origin, I have to keep in mind, looking at the source of the information, wasn't always true, I am a worthy human being that still adds value to life. Thanks for the information, Dr. Ramani.
Thank you for doing a better job than most explaining the differences. It was becoming confusing listening to others.
i'm 33 and i've never been in a relationship and have no friends. I just want to give up at this point
I see where your going and how on the surface they look the same.
This video told the story of my life! With a mother whose main parenting tool was shame/humiliation, I had avoidant personality disorder (and depression) probably from age 10 onward, but only realized it last year, at age 40, while working on healing from my first marriage, -- to an extremely abusive narcissistic man whom I had married at age 23. Yesterday when I saw that my 20th college reunion committee was soliciting a biographical page from me (as from all the alums), I had this feeling like I had seriously overslept and forgotten to take an exam or something, but on a huge scale: like, "Oh no, I forgot to accomplish something with my life for the last 20 years!!!" The years had slipped away while I hid. Thanks as always for the helpful, validating *facts*, Dr. Ramani. Of course, it's a little discouraging to hear that this disorder is so difficult to ameliorate/dislodge.
Your story is really similar to mine. Narc mother. Got into a relationship with a narc guy. Now I just got out and turning 40 in a couple of weeks. I feel like I lost 21 years of my life. I'm always hiding in fear of being put down, suppressed, manipulated and discouraged. I always feel like there will be malevolent people out there that will prey on me once I put myself out there. I don't feel like I can freely go about my life.
@@jenaya_laila2442 I'm so sorry to hear that, Jenaya. I know you're not asking me for advice, but I just want to encourage you to be kind and forgiving to yourself. You didn't deserve any of what happened to you, and if you're like me, some of it happened precisely *because* you are a good, moral person with integrity and determination. I've recently discovered it's easier to go about my life believing (& frequently telling myself) I DO NOT deserve to be treated abusively, or judgmentally, either by strangers or by loved ones. As an example, if a driver is rude to me on the road, my first instinct has long been to internalize their criticism/aggression and then have a terrible day; but as I've begun to believe I didn't deserve their excessive display of anger, and as I've started to have this self-protective reaction more and more often, I've begun to feel a bit more safe & free in the world again. It's amazing how long it takes to make this a regular habit of thought, though! And I'm still not to the point where I can feel comfortable putting myself out there with career-related things. Next step, I guess. Good luck to you!
Dr. Ramani can you please make videos focusing more on how do we heal our inner wounds? The ones which cause us having poorest boundaries and make us vulnerable towards manipulative people?
That sounds like people pleasing behaviour to me. I do that too. Getting better at it though..
Thank you for this video. Since being in a long term relationship with a narcissist that was 17 years older than me, I have been wrought with the feeling that my struggle with avoidance of intimacy means I am a covert narcissist. Despite therapy, reassuring myself and reassurance from loved ones, I can’t help but carry the feeling that I am truly a monster and no one around me is brave enough to tell me. I try to be kind and loving in my approach towards others, but fear of making a mistake and hurting someone or making a mistake and seeming foolish makes it very difficult to make plans with coworkers, try new hobbies and put myself out there in the community I live in. It is a daily struggle to break through this mental loop, but I have found by journaling, saying yes more despite fear and asking external sources (that are not narcissistic) for validation I am starting to put myself out there more. It particularly resonated with me when you said a narcissist could worsen the mental struggle an avoidant person feels. I do think that looking back, it gave me a whole new set of worries that I am learning to work through. As always, I appreciate your video and the grounding presence you exhibit.
Wow! Dr. Ramini, this was *super* helpful and a *massive* relief. The man I'm dating, who was a dear friend of many years, is clearly on the autistic spectrum and has self described avoidant attachment style issues (I know, he's *dating*, yay, him! ☺️). Before he revealed his romantic feelings for me, he expressed a concern that he was a narcissist. Having watched your video, I told him that narcissists usually don't care about being narcissists, just about getting caught. Now, he wants to take his time and occasionally pulls back to deal with his autistic and avoidant issues, but after being in so many narcissistic relationships, it a relief to have my understanding of how narcissism woks and that I'm *not* ina narcissist relationship. I just have to deal with my own avoidant tendencies, but at least my gentlemen friend is going to take things slow, which is a good thing!
Thank you so much Dr Ramani! That was a very concise and highly enlightening breakdown. The reaction to shame 'being anything but anger' as a hallmark indicator (in contrast to covert narcissism and ignoring comorbidities also) was particularly insightful!
Dr Ramani , Thank you for doing this, You just confirmed my self diagnosis, it means so much to me, I always felt why me, why do I always end up vulnerable, now I know thank you so so much, you are an angel.
I never used to be this way, but after my Mom died, was ambushed for 4.5 years in Narcissistic brothers attacked me to change trust terms. So since I'm continuing to heal, I am still having to g back to work, they stole my retirement, worked really hard my whole life, just want to continue no contact with toxic envious destructive siblings, so avoidant stuff is also healing from abuse. Life is about bouncing back being resilient, life isn't always fair.
Reminds me of Lost Child and Scapegoat roles in family. The more I heal from the abuse of those roles the less fear and shame I feel. Lots of inner work unraveling lies we are told to see the truth of our worth. I do agree that a person with Avoidant style from being shamed and abused is a logical way they would protect themselves. They learned to avoid the Narcissistic people in their lives and avoid behavior that could trigger abuse from Narcissist. If one can find a trustworthy person or therapist to guide and teach how to be in the world with better boundaries and tools to navigate difficult people, I think this would help. I never had anyone teach me how to feel safe in the world nor feel I had permission or a right to self actualize. Too many abusive people in sheep’s clothing. But thru Dr Ramani, I am learning to feel better about myself and more resilient. Took years, but making progress. Figure out the toxic people and get them out of your life. That stops the wounding cycle. That worked for me. Now I am learning to discern who is and who is NOT safe. Now I need to learn a new way to be with people.
Excellent!
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
This really makes sence. I think I understand my patterns better now. But it also makes sence that there's a lot I can do about it... Thank you Dr Ramani, I'm so glad you talk about these topics... and make it easy to understand...
damn... that hit me harder than any video so far. with autism and childhood abuse I've always been afraid of people shaming and humiliating me(my best friend this is in front of girls i was infatuated with) and giving them a reason to bully me and I never raged back, I just hid away from bullies and "friends". Because I was so withdrawn and felt horrible when people I cared about suffered, feeling inadequate and useless in helping them(borderlines who threatened suicide who were in an abusive relationship with narcissists), yet putting all my energy into trying to avoid violent escalation between my peers, trying to please everyone and help everyone at my own expense, I was labeled a covert narcissist by people who knew I was a victim of abuse, of cults, and struggled with these patterns. They would ask me to open up only to use me, rage at me, and guilt me, to the point I felt worthless, and then discarded me. I just wanted to love them but experienced consistent cold, love bombing/discarding cycles from these damaged people and decided to not date anyone because I felt too broken. I even tried to convince therapists I was narcissistic, that I felt psychopathic, but they dismissed it as there was a pattern of caring for other people, a presence of emotional empathy, even if the cognitive empathy was distorted by autism. These mental health videos help a lot, Dr. Ramani Thank you from the bottom of my heart for focusing on these topics.
Thank you Doctor Ramani
I sincerely apologize if i triggered you in any way, if i caused any negative thoughts. With my comments about nuclear family etc. I know you've been through hell, so i hope i didn't make things worse.
I Liked this video so much! It's so hard to find videos that approach about Avoidant Personality Disorder. I was diagnosed with this disorder and I fight everyday to get more quality of life. I would love to watch more videos about this thematic (Avoidant Personality Disorder).
My ex was APD and ghosted me after he made me cry. This video makes so much sense. Thank you!
I'm sure I have this AVPD. If I get into a situation of difference of opinion or having to call someone out I get terrified of "Causing a scene". Perfect for your average exploitative narcissist.
I'm a polyglot, and English is the fourth language I learned. So, the way I think is some times quite differently than an American born person. My culture is different in how I think and do things, and sometimes what I think, say or do regency's that. I've learned a lot since. Thoughts which come naturally to people in this country, didn't it don't sideways come to me... So one time I was asked to describe my Narc in one word, it was quite difficult, because I tell stories, not use one word to describe a whole person. Buy I was surprised on how quickly the word "DIFFICULT" came to mind... Yes, difficult, and since I've been using that word to describe him. Now in your intro doctor, you use the word DIFFICULT relationships, a word that I normally wouldn't have used, but my instinct knew, and it just popped out. I was so proud of myself because hey, I'm becoming better at English and this culture... Yes, he's mighty DIFFICULT!!!
I dealt with 2 years of this shit. I'm so glad I'm free. Still traumatized but who wouldn't be? The only thing I can do is educate myself to make sense of it all! Knowledge is power. Knowledge will help me heal faster.
Thank you for all that you do. You're helping so many people.
Thank you for this. It has been enlightening and I can understand finally what it is that is keeping me in this miserable place in my life.
This offers so much clarity so glad my curiosity lead me to this 🙏🏾
I was just discarded by an avoidant. Her ex husband was an extremely abusive narcissist. My heart is absolutely crushed for her. It’s a two fold heartbreak.
The video preview reads talking about Dependent personality. I was really hoping for that one. I do appreciate this clarification of covert and avoidant though. (Really looking forward to the video on DPD and the narcissist!)
She did that one a few days ago!
Thank you!
My covert narcissist mom turned both me and my brother into people with avoidant personalities. You learn to be hypervigilant of any slight changes in tone, how anything and everything can be taken as a slight against them, so it's easier and just plainly energy-conserving to avoid being around them at all. And now you're hypervigilant in any social situation, which is exhausting, so you avoid it.
This was by far the most enlightening video into my own life I have ever seen! Education is truly empowering. Thank you Dr.! 🙏
The shame is more of the subconscious in the NPD and not integrated with the personality. The APD is very aware of their shame (even if unaware of the source of it) and wear it as their own. Thoughts of self harming from the CNPD would be generated by critical external forces. They are hypervigilant to criticism. The APD is hypervigilant to "Confirmation" of their perceived inadequacy.
The values between NPD and APD are almost mutually exclusive, almost ego dystonic or "toxic" for the other to wear. That may be why it is more common for APD to appear comorbid with cluster A schizoid or schizotypal conditions. Confusion can come from the Avoidant's hypervigilance to external confirmation of their shame coupled with the mild autistic quality of Cluster A and an inability to "get" or properly "read" subtle or triangulated signals (often until some critical mass is reached)
Just my own subjective inside look at the dilemma.
Wow, this makes a lot of sense. Please explains more or if you have any sources of further information/reading 🙏
@@delaramv1 Thank you :-) I haven't read any books on the subject of personality disorders yet but my online sources are here on RUclips, the Papa Bear, Momma Bear and Brother Bear trifecta of Professor Sam Vaknin, Doctor Ramani and Doctor Todd Grande (His older video encapsulations of the personality disorders)
@@martineldritch I see! Thank you, you have very sharp observations about this. I can't seem to find the trifecta videos that you mentioned from Prof Vankin, I haven't watched his videos before, always a bit wary.
I have Avoidant Personality Disorder. My narcissistic wife pursued me. I was so happy someone was interested in that I didn't see the red flags. She rushed me into marriage after a few months. Fast forward to the 2nd year of marriage and she was blaming me for everything and I believed it. When she told me she was divorcing me for "ruining" the marriage with my inadequacies, I actually begged her to stay. She just scoffed at my weakness. Now that she has been gone for a few months, I am seeing more clearly what she was doing to me.
I was working on my own self in silence and meditation when I was tortured by management. I was making progress. Regaining old memories to work on. All of which was lost. Years of work being opened up by family suicide based grief that allowed me to do shadow work. That abuse to me, and the loss made me feel like my family members died for nothing.
I'm an adult and I still struggle with this. I have so many issues and my relationship with my narcissistic mother is so strained and difficult. Anxiety is my daily companion.
You hit a nerve with this one!!!
Avoidant with co morbidly vulnerable narcissist…or vice versa….that’s what I’m experiencing at the moment.
I’m finding this all discouraging. I struggle with anxiety from abuse and trauma, and am doing therapy and learning as much as I can. But honestly sometimes these videos leave me feeling confused and hopeless about it all. It all seems rather doom and gloom sometimes without much compassion for those with these ‘disorders’. 😕
Yea totally
Yes sometimes knowledge is too burdensome therefore you find a hobby weathers walks in the park painting tennis and you relax with them Grant yourself the mercy in the compassion that you need for yourself, sometimes you get a glimpse of what you needed to learn, while life should be enjoyable other parts of it was meant to learn for the future I only say this because the only compassion I found was patting myself in the back cuz no one else would take care I hope it goes better for you 🌹
The cover image says Dependent PD but the topic is Avoidant and Narcissism
Now that I have learned all things narcissistic, I'd love videos on how to heal from this type abuse.
Me too
Wow.. Thanks for your insight into this disorder. It Helps me understand how it got so bad for me. I regret it.
Its really disarming to believe that a Narc is just awkward. It took me years to figure this out. I hope this helps people avoid that mess.
I love you I love you so much doc
Is anyone who watches these videos ever terrified that they’re the narcissist or is it just me? My therapist thinks I’m closer to having AVPD than NPD, but the anxiety is still there.. which I guess kind of proves my therapist’s point lol
All the time. Although I've been told a true narcissist wouldn't even consider the possibility they are one.
Oh yeah, I feel like I've been infected by my father, because he was one of the people raising me after all, and surely I must have some of his traits. That's how I've been living for 20+ years, thinking that if I let anyone too close to me, that surely they'll get infected by whatever was passed down psychologically.
It's only these last 2-3 years that I've begun understanding how fucked up of a worldview I've developed and taken steps to improving my situation.
Even moderately experienced and competent therapists know better than to introduce the idea of their client having narcissistic traits, let alone having narcissistic personality disorder, because of the risk of the client stopping therapy. Notice how you used the word "terrified"? There's just so much stigma and animosity towards people with this diagnosis and clinicians know this. Also, such a diagnosis should only be made with A LOT of observation, questions etc. This takes time. If you have a therapist discussing or driving things towards a diagnosis with, say, fewer than 8-10 sessions I'd be highly skeptical of their confirmation bias and clinical training.
Always draft a list of questions and quiz a new therapist thoroughly before starting with them. If they don't want to answer or something just feels off move on.
🙋♀️ Thanks Dr. Ramani. This is very helpful.
There is another aspect to this. One might do this, not primarily because of their insecurities, but because their predator narcissist has to always win, which means the narcissists victim have to always lose. The attitude itself is wrong, and lacks any semblance of care or love. The best scenario is to leave ASAP. But narcissists like to find ways to trap their victim, like using their morality against them (marriage is forever; when the narcissist never actually married beyond legally, and involving children). If they can successfully use one's morality to trap the person, the damage done to the victim can be substantial. And someone so trapped might just begin seeing "soft" narcissism in many people. This is demoralizing. Stop eating the rusty iron filings that are rusting your nervous system and prefrontal cortex. Search "Morley Robbins" -- he gives the answer away for free.
If an Avoidant marries a Covert, the little needles and jabs from a Covert might carry more power over the other than in a more healthy environment? Which might explain why the avoidant might “stick around so long”? It’s often asked, “Why did you stay so long?.” I’m still trying to work that one out.
Absolutely, this is more-or-less the situation I'm in (trying to get better, but it's hard), and a related idea is "Trauma Bonding". They don't even need to do much in the way of "love bombing" to hook someone already desperately low self-esteem and lacking in boundaries for them to violate, and then the trauma bonding (let alone abuse that leads to depression) makes escape almost impossible.
A hard thing to unpack as someone who has a lot of avoidant behaviours is how much of what I do now are patterns I built to deal with childhood issues, versus what's built up in my adult life (and even now) thanks to the covert narc. And since my narc is still around and I can't easily get away, that constant negative input from them makes any the positive things I try to do to heal a major uphill battle.
@@NigelBree That is exactly it! It never occurred to me that, as a child, I had no self esteem. Maybe we didn’t know the extent of it because people gave us credit for being something else? I was tall, quiet, and reasonably attractive. I got credit for being confident, and at school, I was occasionally put in charge. If I didn’t throw my weight around, I got credit for being humble. This doesn’t mean I thought I earned respect, I merely struggled to maintain the illusion. And as an adult, like you say, between the trauma bonding and accepting the blame for pretty much everything and everyone, trying to make a healthy place is a giant challenge. This morning I heard, for the hundredth time, that “journaling” and “written meditation “ work with our brains in ways even therapy doesn’t. I’ve been avoiding it, but... this morning I decided to give it a shot. I’m determined to heal. Good luck to you too. With this new information, we have hope.
Thank you for clarifying this issue and discussing the differences and similarities between avoidant personality and covert narcissism. I have found this confusing to differentiate but your explanations here were really very helpful!🙏🤗
I'm sure I have avoidant personality disorder. I also have borderline personality disorder. I just got discarded by a friend who is a narcissist. I kept going back, but now I'm staying away, but it's hard. She really huft me emotionally, but I loved her, however, it was unrequited love. The most painful thing I've ever endured. She was my onky friend, and only online. I don't have any real life friends. I've Isolated myself because I do feel socially inept.
:/ take care and yeah treat yourself as much as you need ✨
I could have written this myself, thankyou for sharing
Attachment styles (dismissive avoidant & fearful avoidant) rather then full on Avoidant personality disorder, really can relate to this too I feel.