The solution to the addon problem is very simple. Blizzard needs to make ALL important effects clearly visible. No more invisible frontals, no more swirlies, no more barely visible marks on people. Every player who took damage or died needs to understand what happened immediately. All the effects also need fitting colors. Ground effects that need to be avoided must be red, soaks must be blue, and so on.
TBH thats the biggest thing I hate about games like wow. Seriously we dont need to be hand held while we play the game, leave a little mystery. Let us engage our brains to try figure things out once in a while
@@yavvivvay It is less about any particular effect color, but CONSISTENCY. These blue swirls are good, those are bad, these other ones you have to soak, Oh, you stood in that? Insta-death. ALL THE SAME DAMN COLOR. Except when they are red. Or green. Readability is looking at the effect and knowing it is bad or good. Pulsing? It is a soak. A growing ring inside is a countdown. FF XIV doers it way way WAY better
@@ZS-bg7josame thing applies for accessibility. Also FF is rainbow vomit. It’s way to much yellow square, pink triangle, which ruins any immersion for people.
Blizzard is going to need to redesign their fights if they're going to crack down on add ons. As someone who doesn't use add ons at all, I can tell you straight up that VERY FEW boss mechanics are "telegraphed". If you don't have add ons, you literally don't know what to do unless you read a guide. There are no indicators to what's going to happen. Occasionally you'll get warnings that SOMETHING is going to happen, but not what. Basically, Blizzard have been relying on add ons to do the heavy lifting for their boss fights.
They've been designed in the race with those addons in mind. That's....the whole point of the conversation. Of course they will have to design fights around what's available
I also don't use addons and I've done up to 4/8 on mythic (one lockout to 20% with my guild of casuals). The only time I really ever personally had problems seeing anything on the ground is when they code the swirlies in the same colour as the floor... Nymue from last tier for example was kind of annoying, but that's about it. I learn by reading debuffs, observing the environment, what the boss does and trial and error.
The add on problem is entirely blizzards fault. They keep adding mechanics that require add-ons, putting purple pools on purple floors. Start making fights that are possible without add-ons.
That's actually not correct. I've played at a high level without using addons that tell me what to do since wolk. The only reason i use weak auras is to show me what buffs i have. Players think addons are required because they don't even try to play without them. In raids especially, the addons basically do nothing if you have a pair of eyes and bothered to take 10 mins to learn the ability sequence of a boss. Tell me a boss fight that 'requires' an addon.
It's actually a circle. Blizzard is making raids etc. harder because addons make it easier, then they require more addons and the circle never ends. If addons are removed, blizzard can focus more on actual design of the UI and mechanics imo
@@thispandaispurple This game is easy. Add-ons are not "required" for anything. Not mythic raiding, not mythic +, and certainly not for anything easier.
Ian must understand that every addon players install highlights a shortcoming in the game-be it the UI, encounters, or other design aspects. Each addon reflects their failure to meet player needs. His combative stance on this issue perfectly encapsulates why subscriptions are declining.
Every person has different need and blizzard will never meet those. But they can do better with the vanilla UI yes. The other issue is the raising skill floor that happen perpetually.
They could just admit that the increased penalty on deaths was a bad idea, and that the tank nerf - party nerf - was a horrible idea, and that mob casts no longer going on cd when you kick them was a bad idea, and they could roll those three back. But nooooo, right?
@@vincenthammons-kd9duthat's been a thing since vanilla an interrupt is supposed to make it so you can't cast that school of magic for 6 sec a stun will only stop the cast for the duration of the stun this is how it always worked
@@ryantwomey3463 No, I can promise you it's not. In dragonflight, ccing a mob during a cast with a cooldown would put that ability on cooldown. They changed it in the war within to no longer work like that, and it's AWFUL. Now, people will stun mobs at the same time as you interrupt them, and the interrupt gets wasted while the mob just goes straight back to casting whatever it was as soon as the cc ends (which can be instantly with stuff like dragon's breath that break on damage). It makes groups that aren't hyper coordinated much worse off as they repeatedly step on each others toes. It also makes aoe cc less useful because you end up syncing up enemy casts which can sometimes lead to people getting one shot by two things going off on them at the same time.
If they want to reduce addons why do they design their dungeons to absolutely NEED addons? Why do they give certain mobs instant cast tank buster abilities that you need to mitigate with defensives in higher keys when there is no ingame method to see those abilities coming? Look at high key tanks, they configure their nameplates so they have these abilities with a cooldown shown next to the mob, that way they can track exactly when those abilities are coming off cooldown.
@@servantis5989 Exactly they rely themselves on these same Addons and now think removing them will help. You want to remove? put the time and bring those addons as part of the core game.
Unpopular opinion maybe, but one of the reasons those add ons are so prominent and needed (for the most part of players that aren't doing mythic raiding or high end m+ and are just trying to enjoy the game) is that the game has evolved to a nonstop dance of dodging and running and doing mechanics, barely any chance to actually cast without optimal stats. I've been playing since the end of classic, have a career now with little spare time and I don't even bother, I just want to log on, do some content where I focus on my rotation, have some fun and not be stressed out all the time
I stopped playing WoW because addons felt so mandatory that you would get kicked from raids if you didn’t have them. I want to play World of Warcraft, not a third-party addon game that tells me where to go and what to do. I started WoW back in the day for its immersive fantasy world, but I quit because it turned into a meta-gaming FOMO-driven experience where there is always the 'right' way to play and you get excluded from activities if you don’t follow it.
You go back to classic wow mechanics its no big deal. You want people to dodge 3 abilities at one time all while trying to damage and not getting one shot in normal raids. Ok solved it people will stop playing and you can keep catering to the top guilds who have been done and just waiting for the new raid.
Blizzard absolutely are at the steering wheel on the whole addon situation. I feel like every time I encounter a new enemy or boss it does a poorly telegraphed attack that kills me and makes me go "what the fuck happened" when I really should think "oh wow it does this, how do I play around that". They should be more easily understood from the start but still challenging to play around. We shouldn't need addons to think for us but a lot of the time we do, because the information we need to win isn't accessible enough or there's just so many things happening there's no way for the brain to keep track of it all. I should never die in a dungeon or raid without knowing what killed me.
@@Moddum123 Even originally, DBM was more for people who just couldn't keep track of it or had a disability that made it so it was harder for them. Such as a color problem or the like, over time dungeons and raids just got packed with 124+ different attacks or abilities for every boss/elite enemy that it became a requirement just to keep track of them all. You could easily keep track of older raid bosses and their attacks, they only had like 4-5.
@@puckyou4568the adventurer’s guide should have a visual aspect to it. A small window you can open which shows you what the attack looks like; the colour of the swirls on the floor; whether it’s a cone, a line, a circle etc.; if it’s a DoT, how this looks to players etc. Sometimes reading just isn’t enough. If they can show what it looks like visually as well, I think that would be of great help
unfortunately players will always look to make things easier and so blizzard must make them harder to compensate for the addons. The choice of players in use of addons has backfired, the solution is to ban addons and then rebalance the game.
The question is: Why does M+ need any punishment at all? Death-count vs. timer. This is ridiculous. Choosing between two shitty options instead of just making it fun and enjoyable. This is absolutely insane to me
"Addons do the fun parts of the fight for you, dps are bored bc you just dps until the addon tells you what to do" I dare Ian to spend a week raiding with a guild who still doesnt have AotC, then talk to me about how addons are ruining the experience.
No kidding. I've dps'd and tanked since wrath, and I've never met anyone who said the fights were boring. Ever. Because of the addons. Idk who they're kidding with this.
@odinsecho167 Not many actually think raiding is fun. The loot is what is fun. Getting the highest ilvl is fun. Add-ons are a much needed balance to make sure it doesn't take a year to get loot. Ofc blizzard wants you to take a year...every month is money
Can they bloody fix the logging in and learning 10 bloody titles you already know and it removing your title if it's one of those! It's been the whole bloody expansion!
i think for addons in mythic etc it comes down to some of the fights not having clear objectives with the mechanics, brood twister should have color coordinated debuffs that were linked to the eggs, aka red circle ran to red egg etc. rather than having all the debuffs be the same color and if you didnt have the weak auras and addons that helped you it would be a clusterfuck. i dont know if its true but i was told there was a wow dev that said they make problems not solutions in regards to fight mechanics and i think that even if its not true and its unintentional mechanics that dont have clearly defined objectives like this are the reason why addons and weak auras that tell you what to do are felt to be mandatory to beat the encounters.
I think the focus on these two things is meaningless when every trinket I get my weekly chest doesn't even function. The game got cooked this expansion and nobody is really fixing it. I feel like it's a big waste of time to play and RPG that the gear doesn't even work.
I'm surprised Blizzard allowed addons to go as far as they did for as long as they did. Parsing metagame data in other games is called cheating. A Dota2 team got caught for cheating with maphacks, and they tried to claim it was just "parsing metadata". If the default game doesn't give you access to certain data, then accessing that data is cheating, full stop. The real problem is enforcement. Once you label certain addons cheating, people will find more illicit ways to use them without detection. Then you end up in a situation where you have to decide whether to ban hundreds of the top raiding players when you eventually catch them cheating. If you don't ban them, then you can't ban other players doing the same thing. And if you ban the average player but not "pro" players then you have a two tiered system. Blizzard has no easy answers here, because this is the core problem of cheating in video games.
I think that if blizzard wants me to stop using my addons they need to make mechanics clear and visible. I play FF and WoW pretty regularly and all of the mechanics in FF are telegraphed in a way I can blind prog Allaince Raids, dungeons and trials. They use consistent visual language that tells me to stay out the piss puddle. The boss will pose for more than a second or two before hitting a big AOE. Tank busters are always red and have that ⭕️ around the tank so healers know to give them a shield and tanks know to hit the mitigation. Another thing is that WoW plays very fast so if you don’t have the mechanics memorized you’re going to die.
@@Sunderphon mechanics are clear, people just need to learn said mechanics....but easier to depend on a addon wich literally tells you when/what to do.
@ not always. There are some obvious ones like the charging mobs or the lava cannons in stone vault. There are also some invisible ones like certain tank busters, the heal absorb on dawnbreaker is another one, unless you know how to deal with it you’re going to get the party killed. Also defile can cover swirlies. The addons help but it can’t press buttons for you.
@ Raid tank busters are one thing, but dungeons are not designed the same. There are inconsistencies in how they create content. As people mentioned here earlier, a Purple boss with purple swirlies on a purple floor is hard to read. In FF, the tank buster is a red indicator with a circle. It's consistent across all content, and as a healer or tank, you know that big damage is coming. In the case of specific tank busters, a pool around the tank warns players that there's some spread damage and that they should not stand close to it. The same is true for stack markers. One set of markers means one attack is coming, while multiple markers from something like Akh Morne mean they will stay stacked until the cast finishes.
Also love that Resto Shaman now have Mana Tide and Healing Tide merged, and that Earth Shield no longer loses charges - no longer need to keep refreshing the damn thing, only when its time runs out.
In Dragonflight, Blizzard made healing more challenging, leading to a healer shortage. In TWW, Blizzard made tanking more difficult, we now have a tank shortage. If Blizzard removes addons and weak auras that simplify raid leading, how will this affect the number of raid leaders? People already complain about waiting an hour to get into M+, will the raid pug scene die off? Will people step up to raid lead when it’s harder, if they didn't when it was easier?
It's not easier. That's the problem. The number of spells and effect, on top of the convoluted amount of spells and rotations, the game is harder now than it's ever been. That's why people are quitting. We play games to have fun and relax. This game is nothing but a boring grind that's ridiculously hard for no reason other than the existence of addons.
As someone who exclusively plays M+, I approach this discussion from the perspective of a dedicated player. I do not raid beyond Heroic, nor do I engage in PvP. M+ has been my focus since BFA and remains my largest time investment in the game. I firmly believe that the removal of the timer lacks careful consideration. If the timer were replaced with deaths as the sole metric of success (like delves) it would fundamentally undermine the mode for those who enjoy M+ at its core. Such a change would not cater to existing or recently past M+ players but instead to a different audience, one that already has content tailored to them, such as delves. The essence of Mythic+ lies in its sense of urgency. As key levels increase, the stakes rise, the timer becomes more significant, and players feel compelled to improve their skills. This tension and drive are integral to the mode's appeal. Replacing the timer with a death counter would render time irrelevant. Groups could proceed at an excessively slow pace, pulling minimal packs to minimize risk. While bosses remain challenging, the overall experience would become tedious, far less skill-intensive, and ultimately unengaging. This shift would dilute the sense of accomplishment and reduce Mythic+ to little more than a glorified participation trophy, as anyone and everyone could do it. Such a system would strip the mode of its value and prestige. Achieving high-level delves, for example, is not widely regarded as an indicator of skill or dedication but rather as a reflection of time spent. This lack of meaningful progression is why delves have largely failed to capture player interest. For high-key pushers, the rewards in Mythic+ come from beating personal bests or striving for a 0.1%. These achievements are fulfilling because they are difficult and require mastery of the mechanics, including the timer and being efficient. The timer is the foundation of what makes Mythic+ unique and rewarding. Removing it would alienate those who enjoyed the mode since Legion, BFA, Shadowlands, and Dragonflight. That said, Mythic+ does have room for improvement. Key depletions, rewards, mounts, transmogs, tuning, affixes, and class balance all need updates. However, the timer is not among the issues that need fixing. If there is significant demand for an alternative format without a timer, it should exist as a separate mode rather than replacing the current format. This way, both player groups can enjoy the game in their preferred way. Removing the timer would erode the foundation of Mythic+ and cater to a participation trophy mindset, diluting the game’s quality. Instead, we should focus on addressing actual problems while preserving the core aspects that make Mythic+, mythic+.
Yes, Yes, and Yes. This is absolutely it. I don't know a single person that likes M+ complaining about the timer, it's all these casual andy's that want it gone.
When did blizzard ever change a core mechanic of the game in such a way? raids got more easy modes with worse loot, arena got solo shuffle with worse loot (no glad mount/title) so i dont see M+ being changed that much. What i could think about is something like "LFM+" with random matchmaking like the LFR which replaces delves after TWW, offers a similar reward structure as delves with champion gear / hero vault gear and a deathlimit instead of a timer and uses the same dungeons/affixes regular M+ does so people get a better entrypoint
This is what i immediately thought of too. Odds are, especially regarding push keys, you're gonna brick a lot more keys than you time, so your deaths are gonna be high on average. Even if they limited it to only completed keys this will just coerce players to play specs with immunities, self healing, and damage reduction. Like Dk and paladin who are already high tier because of these things and stuff they do. Holy priest would prolly be the best healer just because wings is a communicable cheat death. This would just make everything wrong with the game worse and people even more toxic.
@@willythemailboy2 I figure their aim was more around the lines of Deadly Boss Mods DBM, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to copy Final Fantasy and ban all addons.
@@Bersek42 The difference is DBM uses timers and things you're supposed to be able to see while weakauras show things that blizzard has deliberately left out of the API. It also does stuff that DBM doesn't, like automatically assigning targets for dispels and such.
I really hope they don't touch rotational WeakAuras that are used to track cooldowns, procs, resources and whatnot, because those are so much nicer than the default UI.
In Wrath they had issues with it. They had to disable addons that wrote over the game world to tell you and your group where to stand during a certain boss fight. I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head, but I think it was in ICC
@@la7era1u54 oh you mean the same stuff "the best guild" used to delete the need to think for archimondes "Wrought Chaos" ? or the among us from the lords of dread? or which bomb to put into which hole in the Jailor fight? yeah seems like blizz doesnt give a shit anymore about that one.
@@la7era1u54 The addon you're referring to was called "Advanced Range Finder" and it definitely trivialized any mechanic involving group movement and stacking.
Maybe we wouldn't need weakauras if Blizzard didn't make every boss a f*cking enigma puzzle with invisible pieces on a 5 seconds to wipe deathtimer that require players to make a hugely coordinated ballet dance while we are already busy dealing with the boss and probably his adds? Maybe... Just maybe.... JUST MAKE A COHESIVE F*CKING BOSS FIGHT INSTEAD????
i play without weak auras and tbh in tww you don't really need them,if you read the mechanics and see the casts of the bosses you really know what do to...
I agree, they went way overboard with their weird mechanics, swirlies, death zones, death lines, poison explosions whatever.. And most of the times there isn't even a clear indication of where they are, they overlap or you can't see how far/wide an effect reaches. I'm mentally drained after a raid night I can't imagine doing it without dbm or weak auras.
@@LegendsOfAzeroth-z2g You are not progging mythic that is for sure. Come back after killing Ovinax Mythic without addons and tell us how easy that was.
Maybe if players didn't need a 30 page user manual / raid boss, addons were not so important either. Other mmos can have engaging/fun/hard raids too without unnecessarily convoluted bossfights. ^^;;;
@@1xxvipxx1 Yes I noticed that but always imagined that devs just wanted more epic/complicated/etc fight and it became a slippery slope. Aside from raids I don't think it is a good practice in general to design your game around 3rd party things.
@@1xxvipxx1 IDK I like the older version of raids like Vanilla WoW & earlier where you had to build your character up outside the raid in order to be able to survive in the raid instead of of dance dance revolution RPGs players build a character Shooters build up the twitch skills
God I hope they don't kill the GSE addon. As a 60-year-old with carpel tunnel, I can't play the game without it. It would be goodbye to WoW for me ... which would be heartbreaking, as I've been there since opening day on Vanilla.
As for mechanics and interface solutions, the goal of this should be to integrade missing things into the game, so people don't feel the need for addons. I heavily rely und weakaura timers for buffs and debuffs as well as additional visual ques for certain abilities. These are things which are simply missing from the base game and should be there.
I think this is a cop out. Having a dps that knows how to use cc, defensives, positioning, etc still is more valuable than ones that don’t. Having a team that can coordinate through a dungeon is still more valuable than just one good tank and one good healer. As a healer, if I see a dps standing in fire, not using defensives, I’m going to move to kick them. Not my fault no extra pressure.
it already does, i quit playing after i got keystone master i havent gotten back on even with an active sub, its insanely stressful its horrible they didnt need to do this at all.
If blizzard were actually fighting addons they would disallow third party addons as a whole and implement addons ppl see as essential themselves, but nooo thats would cost too much money.
i agree with this approach, only by disabling their APIs they can achieve independency from addons. Can't see how any other half-ass solution can produce substantial results
naw not at all, should be zero directives, and every mechanic possible should be visible as a giant red circle/cone/square. they mob swinging a sword, red cone on the ground bright red bright enough to burn out your retnas, blizzard was cast giant bright red circle, etc.
With evoker people want to play them but they look so bad, not many want to run around as a skinny little dragon with a loin cloth and shoulder pads as armour
@@Notorious1441 because it makes no sense to use things like breath of eons, deep breath, dream flight, dream breath, fire breath, and rescue without wings
Or even if a player moves 5y or something. That's a better idea than death counter. Am I the only person who enjoys the pace of higher keys and push keys?
reason why you find a high keys range for you to choose from , is the result of keys being depleted , i like how every wow player who don't understand the consequences of stuff type "simple 🤓" , everything from keys being immune to depletion is good on paper , but is it a good system in the long term ? no its not , they made a 12 immunity for depletions for key pushers now , and that's what matters , do people really think that pushing a +7 matter , not does not , its a low key , not really much of a challenge there.
it would be really fun to have "follower duengons" options for ALL duengons and raids in ALL settings (N/H/M/M+) to help individuals train and recognize the places in various roles where they are not costing a whole team for their education, training, and failures. Id really enjoy this.
Add a dungeon mode with only increasing difficulty for those who want to relax and get their high rewards. Dont ruin m+ for everyone who actually enjoy it
Majority hate M+, soooo the cry babies are majority of the player base and sadly, you are the minority. Suck it up buttercup, pull up your boot straps, and enjoy the easier game. Or play FF14 that has no mods and has well built encounters.
For me, I am very audibly inclined when taking in information. I benefit a ton from hearing my DBM announcer say "interrupt" or "Use Defensive" and I'm way faster to react to that than I am visually, my brain just processes it faster. This probably explains why I'm dogshit at certain mechanics if they're visual or at least slower to get a hang of. Besides that, I don't use weak auras at all. I have NeedToKnow setup for my important cooldowns, buffs/debuffs, etc, and that's it. Much like what the top comment says when it comes to clearly defined mechanics, they should not only be visually identifiable, but audibly identifiable for us who are more attuned for that type of information gathering.
I'm sorry but addons have been a required part of raiding since WOTLK. Fights were way easier pre-addon, and the raids are not do-able without some addons at mythic level. Sure normal, LFR, even heroic... but they need to make huge changes if they want mythic to be do able without
bruh if people think M+ is toxic now, a death counter will make it infinitely worse. just imagine, in between pulls people literally stopping to flame each other *because you can*, or the whole thing gets bricked because that one guy stood in a puddle on the last boss. if there is only one way to fail, then there is really only one way to flame and if you give degens the time to flame in between pulls, you better believe they WILL do it.
The M+ killed the dungeons for me. Raiding, doing dungeons were a fun journey for me where the loot was just icing on a delicious cake. We were playing together. Since the M+ is everything about rushing through in the shortest way, looting and the end and repeat like we are doing chores. Not to mention of the classbalance became extremely important which is the weakest feature of the Blizzard design department. The death/wipe count would be better for me. I think both ways could live beside each other. Who just want brainless fast paced runs, do the old way, and others would choose the newer but classical way.
If you don’t like M+ you can run normal mythics with your friend. Most M+ players like the challenge of blitzing a key and doing crazy pulls and fully utilising their class tool box.
@@Testoodope the guy said “loot was the icing on the cake”. The best gear should only come from the toughest content. Dumbing down mythic+ for people who want an untimed dungeon experience seems stupid. They can run normal mythics or just let the timer expire with a “completion” group. If they can’t progress it a skill issue. Why punish the rest of the player base?
@@Testoodope I've never understood why super casual players would want the best gear in the game? What are they going to do with it? Do World Quests quicker?
if thats what youre going for then why remove the timer at all? why not just play the game the way it is right now? the timer really doesnt matter...if you complete the dungeon in 1 hour or 2 or 3 or 4 or 8 youll still get vault rewards, youll still get crests and youll get loot at the end of the dungeon. so whats the point of removing the timer? if youre going to remove the timer then you might as well remove the key scaling system as well since the timer is at least 50% of the challenge in high keys. and if youre going to remove the scaling system, then we can just go back to good ol mythic 0s...so why dont you just do m0s? oh because you want better "rewards" THEN EARN IT lol.
The existence of a timer, in any form, is what makes the current experience toxic. Someone who wants those cosmetics/position on the leaderboard will be just as toxic to the other members of the party.
@@jgro9 Usually when dorks like you type out multi-paragraph tirades over a change that's beneficial in the game for the many versus the few, you're probably gonna have a real bad time later on. i.e. cry more
@@CosmicClericif we go deeper, i’d say the idea of failing is what breeds toxicity. Basically, in any challenge with a team setting, there will be toxicity. Timer or not (look at raid or any team game).
@EnergizingBane but with timers toxicity happens before the failure point does ("You're going the wrong way!", "You're not going fast enough!", etc.), so that kind of argues against the point you're making. I'm advocating for hard Dungeon Crawls, and not Esports obstacle courses with timers. Esports with timers cause toxicity much more so than dungeon crawls. [CC BY-NC-SA 4.0]
I had the thought of removing the time limit from m+... but a surprising number of people in this community see speed as the only measurable skill that is worth having and thus removing the timer would probably not go over well with them. That being said, I do think that the idea of a version of difficult dungeon where speed wasn't the primary skill being measured in addition to the timed m+(maybe just make it so when you get your key you select either a timed or a death based key and they're fundamentally identical just one has a timer, the other has a death counter or something else.
As a tank, i would quit playing the game altogether. Im not playing M+ to complete. I build the best, versatile group i can to beat the timer by as much as possible. Is your group mid, barely completing on time, or are you a badass group that ++, or +++? I play for the challenge, if all i gotta do is complete the dungeon gameplay would be way slower and alot easier = boring.
Not necessarily. What if you couldn't tank all the mobs in one group without getting crushed as tank. Imagine a scenario where like +2-4 M+ as a geared tank you COULD pull all mobs in a group or maybe even 2 groups, but they start to scale up in say an 8,9 or 10 and now you are getting hammered and the group has to employ some strategy and SKILL to manage the mobs otherwise you get wrecked as the tank. Now we are talking a bit of planning, coordination and execution that will take highly skilled folks for those higher keys. This will engage more of the group, less focus on DPS outright and more about whether that mage can keep X mob sheeped, or the rogue is keeping that sap rolling, or a hunter pet is off-tanking while you are burning down the others. Could add some fun and challenging gameplay. Would maybe allow devs to expand on some cool unique enemy ideas in the dungeons since it no longer has to be a speed gauntlet. Just my 2c.
@@enterjudas8543nope. The problem? People would be absolutely pissed that you, the tank, are pulling multiple packs quickly because you are risking deaths. You are actively discouraged from playing how you want and WILL be forced to play one pack at a time especially when you start doing 17s and shit.
@@dmoto131 Surprise, that already happens. You have to cc, kite, press defensives, use externals, interrupt casts, mitigate specific type of damage, dispel, purge etc in regular m+ right now. And it's been the case since m+ was implemented. You don't have to imagine any hypothetical scenario when in, say a 14-15 there are things that will oneshot a player unless your group employs certain strategies to avoid it.
Timer is the biggest barrier to entry for M+. Look at season one for an average newcommer. Level up to cap, do some open world, some delves and jump into an M+ that gives item upgrades, because that sounds like the reasonable level. Same step up in reward level as before. That means starting doing M+ at around +7 level keys with half of the dungeon pool being dungeons you've never seen. Way to much happening for the newcommer and no time to learn or analyse what happened because we are on a timer. Assuming they get in. And veterans don't have time to guide or help because they too are on the timer. And Thrall help you if your newbie was tanking. Dungeons used to have varied types of encounters. Plain old mob packs, rooms full of traps (explosives, slows, stealthed mobs) requiring careful and planned movement, gauntlets that you rushed as far as you dared each pull, stand your ground scenarios and more. But in M+, due to the timer, the entire dungeon is one long gauntlet. And if the dungeon could not support that it would be reworked to do so or never be brought up to M+. Simple things like elevators not controlled by players are a problem for M+ due to the timer. But without it they don't have to be as pass/fail.
Is this a Failure of the timer being a barrier or that Mythic 0 is piss easy and doesn't actually push us in any meaningful way? We stomped mythic 0's and it was suppose to be a +10 but it felt like a old heroic. This is where they need to add a death counter and push up the difficultly up. If people want slower dungeons with pre pull stuns and slows and such we have classic for that type of play
This is spot on. Sooo many more options when you ditch the timer. Devs can ramp up the difficulty in other ways. Bring back enrage timers for bosses. Allow the player base to come together again and remove a massive amount of the toxicity as a result of the timer. As a veteran player, I wouldn't mind helping out some newer folks, but I just don't have the patience for them when we are on a timer. Death count would actually encourage people helping others and newer players asking questions to avoids unnecessary deaths. I'm tired of the current system and would welcome a significant overhaul.
i had so many bad people in +10 and +11 keys i was wondering if they were new. making the timer go away i will have the same bad people play higher keys where they dont belong. so now the chance of not bricking the key will be higher because they keep dying too much. i will quit the game. back then atleast from what remember dungeons were not that difficult. classic maybe but since bc? naa. never used CC.
@@dmoto131 Then the hard bosses need to be early. Imagine the toxicity after spending 50min slow pulling a dungeon then you get the the last boss and your dps players are just not even close to kill the boss before the enrage.
On the addon topic - 100% agree and I do hope they prune some of the addons that do the fight for the raiders. I think that the most effective way to battle addons is to make the fights a bit more forgiving BUT to randomize the timers too so that stuff aren't hard coded and therefore predictable
A well geared feral Druid can reasonably save a group when a tank dies. I've done this with decently geared Ret Pallys and Havoc DHs (scenario depending)
Because if you don't want to use addons you can just not use addons. But I don't see why they couldn't have a check box for dungeons that blocks addons from the group. But if you would join a group like that you could easily just turn them all off instead. An if this addon thing was really an issue a lot if people would already be doing that. Many of them should have just been incorporated into the game a long time ago.
@@timtrepanier9845 I can't just don't use addons. Game design won't let me. Thats the point. Over the years game is going to more and more one direction: to only be playable with addons. Unless u wanna just wonder around, pickup flowers and play RP. You can't be competetive without addons.
Beullular and this whole comment section make me so sad and upset to be around. It's FULL of whining around the HARDEST content in the game being too hard for them...does someone need to just straight up tell you it's not for you, or what??? Put the mythic dungeons and raiding down if you cant handle it. I've had the most fun ever since I've started playing at the end of Classic with the challenge of doing these types of content. Bellular is just inspiring people to make all walks of this game be for casuals. It's straight up bad rhetoric.
Only addon I couldn't play without is Details. Not being about to see what is going on with your own spell interactions and how much dps/ hps everything is doing you are just playing in the dark. This is how you get better at your spec, by looking at logs and seeing what was working and what is not working testing different trinkets, talents, and spells.
Set death count as a stadard metric for m+ . Keep the timer for a separate dungeon "time attack" mode with no loot attached to it. Make it give OUTSTANDING cosmetic rewards like challenge mode did back in MoP. This way you can get your gear with m+, and then you can get your juicy cosmetic rewards with the time attack mode. No deplete, built in reset button, difficulty set at +15 with a timer and a specific set of 4 affixes.
You can properly cc mobs with a timer too. And you can also do it while simultaneously pulling half a room as well. In fact, high ranked m+ players are way better at properly ccing mobs, lining casts, slowing, kiting, interrupting, using defensives, throwing externals, choosing priority targets etc and they do it quickly and under pressure while they tank/dps/heal at the same time. What's the challenge in casting sheep on focus several times or throwing a trap onto a mob while you dps the other three down?
You can't have "choose your options" m+ because then you don't have standardized conditions for your m+ score. If they need different modes, they can't all be "mythic plus." They need to be separate gameplay pillars.
PvP also has solo queue in which you can reach the highest rating. I would love a M+ solo queue system so I don't have to spend 30+ minutes trying to put a group together every time I want to play the game.
Maybe the timer could stay just as an extra optional difficulty for more hardcore players just for the prestige or for example the ladder board or maybe for Achievement with some cosmetic rewards like in old Challenge Mode.
I think a good portion of m+ is misaligned goals. I read a forum post that really nailed it for me. No more 'standard' m+ posts. Make clear of your goal, if you join a standard group where 2/5 want time 2/5 just want completion and one just wants to pick their nose with whatever happens. Group isn't aligned on what success means. Force what the expectations are in the posting and you only get the same minded players. Won't guarantee success but at least you know that everyone is working for the same goal. This way when someone leaves you can look at the timer and go, "yeah, not gonna make it" and you don't feel as bad.
That's the problem there having standard option. Blizzard needs get rid of it keep beat timer and completion. If click beat timer and few wipes not going time it then expect people to leave. Completion you must stay maximum of hour finish key
Make all timers a flat 60 minutes. Expiration on the timer just kicks you out of the dungeon. The timer is still there, but its so long that it won't matter except to the idiots who think waiting for heroism is valid.
Timer was never an issue , we had timer in shadowland ,bfa,deagon flight ,… . The problem is most players dont know mechanics , they jump in and they want to treat dungeons like diablo style . Just blast it thru style .most of my guild are elderly who have hard time to clear Heroic raid . And when i take them to m+ , i have explain ,”hey here is part that you need to use interrupts,or def ..” . Highest they have done by themselves are m+ 2-3 and with me they got their 10s done .(i am 15s all ) . Game is designed for fast paced environments but most players are getting old for this . They want pet/garrison/housing which is too weird and waste time and i hate loot “chair/windows” at the end of my runs . And even some players are not prepared. I was doing 14s and the grp didnt have brez/flask/… cause its too expensive for them . I think issue is community and they are killing the fun of the game for casuals
Removing the M+ timer would probably mean less specs getting rejected because they aren't the current meta, even though it would probably take the community a while to adapt. Shouldn't be a death counter though, should be a fail encounter... counter; any situation where the mobs reset.
@@rainevasquez662 Exactly, if they remove timer its actually dead game mode. I don't enjoy the super punishing game play style M+ currently is but I'd rather have that than no timer.
it will likely end up causing groups to take classes with longer more impactful cds for killing bosses and better single target classes to prevent boss wipes and just take it slower on packs
TImer or no Timer, There's virtually no reward for busting your butt in a dungeon which makes it automatically not fun. Removing addons would make the game even more not fun.. Blaming something fun like addons is just poor leadership and poor design. If the ilvl reward was 636 M+ would be fun. Instead, its just awful and always has been awful for rewards vs time.
In my opinion, this is great. I like doing raids without addon and have fun learning the mechanics. I think it is an incredibly self destructing culture with people downloading addons that enable them to be able to do content they think they don’t need to put effort in that is designed for you to do so. "Using DBM or weakauras doesn't make you bad, plenty good players use it, I use it so I can chill out more and not focus so hard etc" Precisely! It is not something you have gotten because you think you need an upper hand, or a handicap, but it in many ways are exactly that. It's a good crutch for new players, but back in the day people did fine, because it wasn't that friggin serious either. We have players demanding you download these type of mods to play, so they have controll of the damage output and what you're doing. But the worst thing is that the need for these types of addons is primarily comming from problems the addons are created to solve. What the heck guys, why is that on the game developers to tweak, so your addon works? It's the other way around, mate! Download better addons, or hell use cheats. In my opinion things like weakauras already blurr the lines on what should be allowed to have interfere with the game, and that is because using it actually negatively affects people who don’t use it. Maybe not in the way that you would expect, but that doesn't make it less true. A lot of people that wanted Classic was so they had access to simpler game mechanics that was more fun and engaging that you don’t need thousands of addons to run, and can interact with the game without having seisures. If Blizzard goes ahead with "clawing back functionality" we might have that same feeling back in the game in the future. Sure, it removes some agency of what addons will be allowed to use, but if the game is better for it, I am 100% down.
For mythic plus, I think they should keep the timer. But make it so that when you complete the dungeon you get rewards and crests as it is now, maybe even make the depletion crest the same as timed. Instead of getting additional crests for beating the timer make it so you get an additional piece of loot or a larger % of gold drop, gives you insentive to push, but also you can have *chill* groups for just completion
Also, for the love of God put a goddamn marker on the map for where I respawn. So dying isn't a game of, will I be verbally abused if I release and its far away? Or will I be screeched at if I don't release because the spawn point is close by?
Have to disagree here.. remove timer make mobs MORE important vs. just fodder. Have players/classes actually USE more of their toolkits as a group/team. Mages sheeping again.. maybe a rogue temporarily evasion tanking or stun locking a mob down to keep it under control and take some load off of a tank. Perhaps making sure a certain enemy is silenced etc. Maybe a lock or a hunter using a pet to off tank a secondary mob on a boss fight or having someone have to kite it etc. Bring back some mob management. Hunters actually using traps again. Devs would actually be able to make more unique enemies with specific abilities to counter more strategically. Could be fun.
@@dmoto131 Where is fun in "mages sheeping again"? I remember old times in early Cata heroics where you would place CC in every Thrashgroup. It just took so much time waiting for everyone to CC and having double the time to DPS a group down, because you cant do AOE on all mobs. The Mob Management right now with a timer is much more important. Not Kicking/CCing some spells is a death and thus 15+secounds timeloss.
Attacking Addons would be a really dumb move. A game like Final Fantasy XIV can afford to have to addons because the game baseline gives you what you need to worry about and customization is great. WoW base UI on the other hand is awful and the customization you get to fix it is called WeakAuras.
Skill issue, I did nyalotha mythic on content with no add-ons and it was fine until carapace. Wow is playable without add-ons, people just have to learn to play the game properly, and that is the crux of the issue, people want to be carried by add-ons so they don't have to learn.
Nobody is seriously raiding in FFXIV without parsing, and in WoW most content outside of Mythic only needs a limited amount of addons without WeakAuras.
@@michaelc657 this is true, logs are the only way to show improvement in xiv, without them I'd still be a complete potato like I was for ~6 years. Anyone serious about raiding and doesn't want to be a letdown to their teams uses parsing tools.
@@michaelc657 it's not about parsers. WoW base game doesn't even show you your own buffs/debuffs separetely for you to track them. FFXIV does it with its base ui. Bad UI is just bad UI
On the topic of raids & add-ons: Got CE every tier from EN to Ny'alotha, stopped playing retail before getting CE in CN, and the add-on and WA bloat becomes absolutely disgusting fast. The biggest issue isn't the complexity of the fights on its own, nor whether the game is "holding your hand" with the information it gives you; it's that you're raiding with 19 other people that you have no control or real influence over how they play. As in, you, yourself, could be good enough to do every mythic fight with zero add-ons with no difficulty, but it's a requirement for you to run a laundry list of add-ons and WAs, because it's highly unlikely to find a guild that consistently pushes CE where all 19 others would manage it _without_ add-ons and WAs. (Not saying I was ever that player, but I've had team members in raids that definitely could if so inclined.) The full guild has to use add-ons that give information the game doesn't or in a fashion easier than the game does to cater for the absolute lowest common denominator that players are willing to take into that content. And leaving out the topic of difficulty: It just looks absolutely horrible. All the garbage popping up all over the screen is effectively a visual catalyst for severe nausea. If all that is just streamlined right into the stock client and not made into a massive eyesore, at the very least I wouldn't want to get my eyeballs bleached after a raid night.
Ive been playing around with the idea of getting the 1-3 chest system back, where +1 chest is without timer and 2-3 chest is timed. No punishment for going slow, just better rewarded for going fast.
It was nowhere near as bad 13+ years ago. The only things we had were convenience addons, with DBM being the outlier, which Blizzard didnt seem that bothered about as it didnt actually play the game for you, simply gave you the timers in an easy to read position on the screen. Now with things like Weakauras it can literally play the game for you, such as your dps rotation or some shit. Ludicrous.
So you keep a hunter or nightelf around, so that they can reset to avoid the wipe counter incrementing? Also it would be a big problem to have death counters visible "outside," because people would leave just to avoid it going up and ruining their score. But I think it's a good idea to count deaths instead of time for m+. If it weren't so hectic, they could raise the difficulty, necessitate CC and careful pulling. It shouldn't become a slog taking an hour or more though... often there are bosses groups cannot do even when the timer is already at zero, just for the weekly vault.
If they are going to get rid of the timer they should also allow you to change talents mid dungeon as there is no point for that to be locked if they are getting rid of the timer.
easiest solution for the dungeon timer vs death .....give the choice to the group. use pedestal like keys for M+ drop down menu for you to choose and then go. easy peasy. could even give different rewards for each run style
Blizzard needs to make their game as they see it. You cant make a game for people who CHOOSE to use add-ons that sterilize the game and nullify all the things that make the game fun and challenging. You cannot protect people from themselves.
I've been wanting a no timer dungeon end-game for a long time. If people want to keep the timer so badly, blizz can leave it in as a separate mode and the small pool of miserable m+ sweats can just go run that in their corner all day I guess.
Death counter would also promote Tabks to take more defensive talents rather than push for the bare minimum and pump everything they can into damage talents to help the DPS race to meet timer. Same with healers, whom would be encouraged to focus on their sustainability rather than how ofthen can they burst.
Almost wish you would stop covering m+ because the opinions you give on it always make it really obvious that it's not a game mode you play and your viewers end up parroting your opinions as if they're fact.
WoW is a casual game... make the dungeons casual/chill (no timers).. I know some people love the challenge but the majority of players always used to be casuals. As for Weak Auras.. I've never used them, never needed them, BUT the visual noise on the screen during raids especially big groups got to be way to much even back during Legion. IDK what it's like now, i'm not playing and it's going to take a lot of WoW changes for me to consider coming back
The addon issue is entirely within Blizzards control, the problem they're going to have though is that if they do choose to scale this back, they can't simply recycle older content because it will become pretty much impossible. With M+, the problem with a timer is that it just boils down to a math problem of how can the group do the most dps? They've tried a few things with AoE caps and such as extra knobs to tune but it will always come down to a question of maximising DPS while avoiding deaths - and this creates a meta which, whether people like it or not, trickles down into the general playerbase. Having deaths as a deciding factor is interesting but I expect that for those pushing higher keys, the question then becomes who has the most survivability and cooldowns that line up the best instead - which will then probably trickle down too. And I wonder whether this will start to influence the overall design where there are more one-shot mechanics. Also, it's going to massively depend on the threshold, but it could end up with more runs being dead due to early wipes as people leave.
I think removing the timer will result in less deaths ivwralas well. No timer means no need to rush. Which let's you slow everything down, take a break to reset major cool downs, let healer regain manage. You also can just pull smaller packs instead of feeling you need to pull MASSIVE packs. Smaller packs means less damage the tank and healer need to deal with
Nope it wouldn’t, same amount of deaths and then they’d cry, bitch, and moan about a death counter. Most players in keys die because they are so fuckin stupid and can’t stand in circles.
Addons on enemies especially, but self buff addons either remain or they need to upgrade UI to weak aura level, like tracking totems, because with so many light flashes I cannot see my totem anywhere, or know if I have certain buff up or not.
If they improve the mechanic visuals the addons will not be an essential requirement an ESO or FF style visual for ground effects and frontals with clearly define borders of what is safe/unsafe would be a great addition too
There is a lot of good in the M+ system. If they got rid of depleted keys, that would single handedly bring tons of people back. You can rerun the same key over and over until you beat it, or a new week roles around (then the key rolls to another dungeon/ or lowers). Thoughts?
If adding a death counter, but worried about having all cooldowns ready for every fights, just add a shot clock like mechanic where cooldowns only atart ticking down while in combat with a raid encounter.
Getting rid of raid lockout for mythic raiding would be massive as well such a easy change and would help tons of guild recruiting and having to pug players. Also changing mythic raiding to flex, or flat 15 or 10man. Ive been a guild master/raid leader for over 10 yrs and the biggest issue is always recruitment and getting 20 players. My guild played SOD and it was so easy to have 10ppl every week. we even ran multiple runs per week but when they shifted from 10m it killed our guild on sod.
You can add a chest at the end for every boss killed, loot in it should be coming from the entire drop table of the dungeon not just the specific boss ( so that the players see a value in killing all bosses instead of seeing a value in skipping as much of thee dungeon to get to the end)
I would love to see them do away with timers for Mythic+. I hate having to feel like I'm being rushed through everything and have no way to pause if I need to step away for any reason. I think your point about Mythic+ death count being too harsh on tank has some merit though. Thing is, I can also see a few easy ways to fix it. What if instead of it being a death count, it was a resurrection count. When players release spirit, they teleport back to the start of the dungeon. What if there's a gate there that you can only open by spending one of your resurrections. Everyone at that gate can then enter for the next 15 seconds until the gate closes. Then later on in the dungeon a few people died on a pull, so the healer has to cast a mass rez, there's another resurrection gone. Or mid fight you desperately need to use a battle rez, there's another one gone. This way if everybody wipes from a tank dying it has the same detriment to the group as if a random dps or two dies. The only downside I can see to this is a group deciding that one dps being dead isn't worth using a resurrection so they have to sit there for a little while, but this could also be solved by requiring either all party members to be alive or to be out of resurrections before starting a boss fight.
The removal of the M+ Timer is the sole reason why i think of starting commiting again into endgame wow alone. It was one of the reasons why i never could commit fully since Legion, the Time sucked all fun out of this System and thereforce the endgame. I am very excited to go back!
As a mythic raider who play since 17 years without addons, it would be amazing if blizzard ban every addon from the game, would shut down alot of big mouths.
Death timer vs time timer. As a bear tank main. I prefer death timer, more often than not I die because my cooldowns haven't come back, or I am having to go faster by pulling more which overwhelms my cooldowns and if the dps can't pump hard enough without dying, it's a wipe.
Brains and voicechat overloaded is something that together is a force multiplier for people with sensory process issues. I brought this up back when private auras were becoming a thing but SPD is not something that WoW accounts for. It's not something as simple as slapping a color filter on for the color blind (I'm sure that still isn't much help to them but at least they have something). SPD get no handicap other than being told to sit out the fun.
For the M+ change, as someone who pushed a lot of keys in the past, 4-5 deaths in a key was enough to brick it already so it would make sense for that to be the limit on deaths really. As for the addons, it will never be fixed until Blizzard devs start playing their own game without addons. The game is already old enough to have limitations on how a boss moves to telegraphs their next move, but many times they don’t even have sound queues. As a tank, many of the tank killing mechanics are just a casting bar.
I think Blizzard could do something about the death counters, for example make them a personal counter and it only affects your loot instead of the group's loot if you die. That also has it's own setbacks because if someone dies too much, maybe they would just leave the group but I think this version could go better.
The solution to the addon problem is very simple. Blizzard needs to make ALL important effects clearly visible. No more invisible frontals, no more swirlies, no more barely visible marks on people. Every player who took damage or died needs to understand what happened immediately. All the effects also need fitting colors. Ground effects that need to be avoided must be red, soaks must be blue, and so on.
What's readable for one person isn't for another. Its a huge advantage of wow that you can display whatever you want however you want.
TBH thats the biggest thing I hate about games like wow. Seriously we dont need to be hand held while we play the game, leave a little mystery. Let us engage our brains to try figure things out once in a while
@@yavvivvay It is less about any particular effect color, but CONSISTENCY. These blue swirls are good, those are bad, these other ones you have to soak, Oh, you stood in that? Insta-death. ALL THE SAME DAMN COLOR. Except when they are red. Or green. Readability is looking at the effect and knowing it is bad or good. Pulsing? It is a soak. A growing ring inside is a countdown. FF XIV doers it way way WAY better
@@ZS-bg7josame thing applies for accessibility. Also FF is rainbow vomit. It’s way to much yellow square, pink triangle, which ruins any immersion for people.
Colourblind people, R.I.P. 😅
Blizzard is going to need to redesign their fights if they're going to crack down on add ons. As someone who doesn't use add ons at all, I can tell you straight up that VERY FEW boss mechanics are "telegraphed". If you don't have add ons, you literally don't know what to do unless you read a guide. There are no indicators to what's going to happen. Occasionally you'll get warnings that SOMETHING is going to happen, but not what.
Basically, Blizzard have been relying on add ons to do the heavy lifting for their boss fights.
They've been designed in the race with those addons in mind. That's....the whole point of the conversation. Of course they will have to design fights around what's available
read a guide then. zoomer brainrot is crazy.
@@Aefaxexactly
literally every single boss mechanic is telegraphed, i play without addons too, nice try tho mr. classic wow andy.
I also don't use addons and I've done up to 4/8 on mythic (one lockout to 20% with my guild of casuals). The only time I really ever personally had problems seeing anything on the ground is when they code the swirlies in the same colour as the floor... Nymue from last tier for example was kind of annoying, but that's about it. I learn by reading debuffs, observing the environment, what the boss does and trial and error.
The add on problem is entirely blizzards fault. They keep adding mechanics that require add-ons, putting purple pools on purple floors. Start making fights that are possible without add-ons.
That's actually not correct. I've played at a high level without using addons that tell me what to do since wolk. The only reason i use weak auras is to show me what buffs i have. Players think addons are required because they don't even try to play without them. In raids especially, the addons basically do nothing if you have a pair of eyes and bothered to take 10 mins to learn the ability sequence of a boss.
Tell me a boss fight that 'requires' an addon.
It's actually a circle. Blizzard is making raids etc. harder because addons make it easier, then they require more addons and the circle never ends. If addons are removed, blizzard can focus more on actual design of the UI and mechanics imo
@@thispandaispurple This game is easy. Add-ons are not "required" for anything. Not mythic raiding, not mythic +, and certainly not for anything easier.
@@Xerus35heroic raiding isn’t high level, sorry bro
@@Xerus35There is 0% chance you did Court or Ovinax mythic without addons, just to name most recent examples.
Ian must understand that every addon players install highlights a shortcoming in the game-be it the UI, encounters, or other design aspects.
Each addon reflects their failure to meet player needs. His combative stance on this issue perfectly encapsulates why subscriptions are declining.
Every person has different need and blizzard will never meet those. But they can do better with the vanilla UI yes. The other issue is the raising skill floor that happen perpetually.
They could just admit that the increased penalty on deaths was a bad idea, and that the tank nerf - party nerf - was a horrible idea, and that mob casts no longer going on cd when you kick them was a bad idea, and they could roll those three back. But nooooo, right?
the stuns are even useless they go right back to casting it after
@@vincenthammons-kd9duthat's been a thing since vanilla an interrupt is supposed to make it so you can't cast that school of magic for 6 sec a stun will only stop the cast for the duration of the stun this is how it always worked
Agreed with everything you said, my gripes too
@@ryantwomey3463 No, I can promise you it's not. In dragonflight, ccing a mob during a cast with a cooldown would put that ability on cooldown. They changed it in the war within to no longer work like that, and it's AWFUL. Now, people will stun mobs at the same time as you interrupt them, and the interrupt gets wasted while the mob just goes straight back to casting whatever it was as soon as the cc ends (which can be instantly with stuff like dragon's breath that break on damage). It makes groups that aren't hyper coordinated much worse off as they repeatedly step on each others toes. It also makes aoe cc less useful because you end up syncing up enemy casts which can sometimes lead to people getting one shot by two things going off on them at the same time.
@@ryantwomey3463 wasn't the case in dragonflight and it worked very well.
If they want to reduce addons why do they design their dungeons to absolutely NEED addons? Why do they give certain mobs instant cast tank buster abilities that you need to mitigate with defensives in higher keys when there is no ingame method to see those abilities coming?
Look at high key tanks, they configure their nameplates so they have these abilities with a cooldown shown next to the mob, that way they can track exactly when those abilities are coming off cooldown.
Those same addons add the things the game lacks to alert the user.
Amen my guy.....well said
It's because Blizzard is designing encounters with add-ons in mind.
It’s funny the more “high skill” and the more “try hards “ a play is , the more kindergarten level of hand holding add ons they have …..
@@servantis5989 Exactly they rely themselves on these same Addons and now think removing them will help. You want to remove? put the time and bring those addons as part of the core game.
Unpopular opinion maybe, but one of the reasons those add ons are so prominent and needed (for the most part of players that aren't doing mythic raiding or high end m+ and are just trying to enjoy the game) is that the game has evolved to a nonstop dance of dodging and running and doing mechanics, barely any chance to actually cast without optimal stats.
I've been playing since the end of classic, have a career now with little spare time and I don't even bother, I just want to log on, do some content where I focus on my rotation, have some fun and not be stressed out all the time
yup.
my favorite class used to me arcane mage.
which for the most part became unplayable in raids due to the design changes to raids.
Fam. Absolutely the same.
I stopped playing WoW because addons felt so mandatory that you would get kicked from raids if you didn’t have them. I want to play World of Warcraft, not a third-party addon game that tells me where to go and what to do. I started WoW back in the day for its immersive fantasy world, but I quit because it turned into a meta-gaming FOMO-driven experience where there is always the 'right' way to play and you get excluded from activities if you don’t follow it.
> is that the game has evolved
the game is like this BECAUSE of addons playing the the game for you
You go back to classic wow mechanics its no big deal. You want people to dodge 3 abilities at one time all while trying to damage and not getting one shot in normal raids. Ok solved it people will stop playing and you can keep catering to the top guilds who have been done and just waiting for the new raid.
Blizzard absolutely are at the steering wheel on the whole addon situation. I feel like every time I encounter a new enemy or boss it does a poorly telegraphed attack that kills me and makes me go "what the fuck happened" when I really should think "oh wow it does this, how do I play around that".
They should be more easily understood from the start but still challenging to play around. We shouldn't need addons to think for us but a lot of the time we do, because the information we need to win isn't accessible enough or there's just so many things happening there's no way for the brain to keep track of it all.
I should never die in a dungeon or raid without knowing what killed me.
I used to be "why would I need DBM its not that hard" in older dungeons to feeling completely lost without DBM in newer dungeons and now I know why
@@Moddum123 Even originally, DBM was more for people who just couldn't keep track of it or had a disability that made it so it was harder for them. Such as a color problem or the like, over time dungeons and raids just got packed with 124+ different attacks or abilities for every boss/elite enemy that it became a requirement just to keep track of them all.
You could easily keep track of older raid bosses and their attacks, they only had like 4-5.
adventurer's guide is a thing, but still it doesn't explain a lot
@@puckyou4568the adventurer’s guide should have a visual aspect to it. A small window you can open which shows you what the attack looks like; the colour of the swirls on the floor; whether it’s a cone, a line, a circle etc.; if it’s a DoT, how this looks to players etc.
Sometimes reading just isn’t enough. If they can show what it looks like visually as well, I think that would be of great help
unfortunately players will always look to make things easier and so blizzard must make them harder to compensate for the addons. The choice of players in use of addons has backfired, the solution is to ban addons and then rebalance the game.
The question is: Why does M+ need any punishment at all?
Death-count vs. timer. This is ridiculous. Choosing between two shitty options instead of just making it fun and enjoyable. This is absolutely insane to me
"Addons do the fun parts of the fight for you, dps are bored bc you just dps until the addon tells you what to do"
I dare Ian to spend a week raiding with a guild who still doesnt have AotC, then talk to me about how addons are ruining the experience.
No kidding. I've dps'd and tanked since wrath, and I've never met anyone who said the fights were boring. Ever. Because of the addons. Idk who they're kidding with this.
@odinsecho167 Not many actually think raiding is fun. The loot is what is fun. Getting the highest ilvl is fun. Add-ons are a much needed balance to make sure it doesn't take a year to get loot. Ofc blizzard wants you to take a year...every month is money
Can they bloody fix the logging in and learning 10 bloody titles you already know and it removing your title if it's one of those! It's been the whole bloody expansion!
Yes please
Its also completely inconsequential and a minir annoyance at best. As long as you dobt know how much actual work that would be just quit whining
@@Komischer0815nick Schizo take
@@Komischer0815nick Jebus, the names of these bots lately are just something else. :/
@@darkblad3359 Bot follow-up take.
i think for addons in mythic etc it comes down to some of the fights not having clear objectives with the mechanics, brood twister should have color coordinated debuffs that were linked to the eggs, aka red circle ran to red egg etc. rather than having all the debuffs be the same color and if you didnt have the weak auras and addons that helped you it would be a clusterfuck. i dont know if its true but i was told there was a wow dev that said they make problems not solutions in regards to fight mechanics and i think that even if its not true and its unintentional mechanics that dont have clearly defined objectives like this are the reason why addons and weak auras that tell you what to do are felt to be mandatory to beat the encounters.
Except this mechanics exist only beocuse addons exists. Gameplay would look way more differente if addons were not allowed.
I think the focus on these two things is meaningless when every trinket I get my weekly chest doesn't even function. The game got cooked this expansion and nobody is really fixing it. I feel like it's a big waste of time to play and RPG that the gear doesn't even work.
@@jakubpelikan2393 so the addon helps you do it the devs are being lazy not to make it as easy to do without the addon
Blizzard if you’re reading these, bring back 10 man mythic because finding 20 people to religiously log in every week isn’t as easy as it used to be.
I'm surprised Blizzard allowed addons to go as far as they did for as long as they did. Parsing metagame data in other games is called cheating. A Dota2 team got caught for cheating with maphacks, and they tried to claim it was just "parsing metadata". If the default game doesn't give you access to certain data, then accessing that data is cheating, full stop.
The real problem is enforcement. Once you label certain addons cheating, people will find more illicit ways to use them without detection. Then you end up in a situation where you have to decide whether to ban hundreds of the top raiding players when you eventually catch them cheating. If you don't ban them, then you can't ban other players doing the same thing. And if you ban the average player but not "pro" players then you have a two tiered system.
Blizzard has no easy answers here, because this is the core problem of cheating in video games.
I think that if blizzard wants me to stop using my addons they need to make mechanics clear and visible.
I play FF and WoW pretty regularly and all of the mechanics in FF are telegraphed in a way I can blind prog Allaince Raids, dungeons and trials. They use consistent visual language that tells me to stay out the piss puddle. The boss will pose for more than a second or two before hitting a big AOE. Tank busters are always red and have that ⭕️ around the tank so healers know to give them a shield and tanks know to hit the mitigation.
Another thing is that WoW plays very fast so if you don’t have the mechanics memorized you’re going to die.
you're never gonna stop using addons to make the game as braindead easy as possible, no matter what they change. be honest with yourself
@ it’s not about it being brain dead just make mechanics clear.
@@Sunderphon mechanics are clear, people just need to learn said mechanics....but easier to depend on a addon wich literally tells you when/what to do.
@ not always. There are some obvious ones like the charging mobs or the lava cannons in stone vault. There are also some invisible ones like certain tank busters, the heal absorb on dawnbreaker is another one, unless you know how to deal with it you’re going to get the party killed. Also defile can cover swirlies. The addons help but it can’t press buttons for you.
@ Raid tank busters are one thing, but dungeons are not designed the same. There are inconsistencies in how they create content. As people mentioned here earlier, a Purple boss with purple swirlies on a purple floor is hard to read.
In FF, the tank buster is a red indicator with a circle. It's consistent across all content, and as a healer or tank, you know that big damage is coming. In the case of specific tank busters, a pool around the tank warns players that there's some spread damage and that they should not stand close to it.
The same is true for stack markers. One set of markers means one attack is coming, while multiple markers from something like Akh Morne mean they will stay stacked until the cast finishes.
Also love that Resto Shaman now have Mana Tide and Healing Tide merged, and that Earth Shield no longer loses charges - no longer need to keep refreshing the damn thing, only when its time runs out.
except when it gets purged off?
So they want to take stress off from M+, but puts more stress on players by taking some addons away ? interesting . . . .
How is m+ stressful? 10s are all you need and they are a joke now.
In Dragonflight, Blizzard made healing more challenging, leading to a healer shortage. In TWW, Blizzard made tanking more difficult, we now have a tank shortage. If Blizzard removes addons and weak auras that simplify raid leading, how will this affect the number of raid leaders? People already complain about waiting an hour to get into M+, will the raid pug scene die off? Will people step up to raid lead when it’s harder, if they didn't when it was easier?
It's not easier. That's the problem. The number of spells and effect, on top of the convoluted amount of spells and rotations, the game is harder now than it's ever been. That's why people are quitting.
We play games to have fun and relax. This game is nothing but a boring grind that's ridiculously hard for no reason other than the existence of addons.
As someone who exclusively plays M+, I approach this discussion from the perspective of a dedicated player. I do not raid beyond Heroic, nor do I engage in PvP. M+ has been my focus since BFA and remains my largest time investment in the game.
I firmly believe that the removal of the timer lacks careful consideration. If the timer were replaced with deaths as the sole metric of success (like delves) it would fundamentally undermine the mode for those who enjoy M+ at its core. Such a change would not cater to existing or recently past M+ players but instead to a different audience, one that already has content tailored to them, such as delves.
The essence of Mythic+ lies in its sense of urgency. As key levels increase, the stakes rise, the timer becomes more significant, and players feel compelled to improve their skills. This tension and drive are integral to the mode's appeal. Replacing the timer with a death counter would render time irrelevant. Groups could proceed at an excessively slow pace, pulling minimal packs to minimize risk. While bosses remain challenging, the overall experience would become tedious, far less skill-intensive, and ultimately unengaging. This shift would dilute the sense of accomplishment and reduce Mythic+ to little more than a glorified participation trophy, as anyone and everyone could do it.
Such a system would strip the mode of its value and prestige. Achieving high-level delves, for example, is not widely regarded as an indicator of skill or dedication but rather as a reflection of time spent. This lack of meaningful progression is why delves have largely failed to capture player interest.
For high-key pushers, the rewards in Mythic+ come from beating personal bests or striving for a 0.1%. These achievements are fulfilling because they are difficult and require mastery of the mechanics, including the timer and being efficient. The timer is the foundation of what makes Mythic+ unique and rewarding. Removing it would alienate those who enjoyed the mode since Legion, BFA, Shadowlands, and Dragonflight.
That said, Mythic+ does have room for improvement. Key depletions, rewards, mounts, transmogs, tuning, affixes, and class balance all need updates. However, the timer is not among the issues that need fixing. If there is significant demand for an alternative format without a timer, it should exist as a separate mode rather than replacing the current format. This way, both player groups can enjoy the game in their preferred way.
Removing the timer would erode the foundation of Mythic+ and cater to a participation trophy mindset, diluting the game’s quality. Instead, we should focus on addressing actual problems while preserving the core aspects that make Mythic+, mythic+.
Yes, Yes, and Yes. This is absolutely it. I don't know a single person that likes M+ complaining about the timer, it's all these casual andy's that want it gone.
Wouldn't giving delves mythic tier difficulty and reward basically fix this?
chatgpt ahhh response
@@joejanota707 yes
@@Makze-op9sx I wrote up a message but it doesn't seem coherent enough, so i used chatgpt to clean it up.
When did blizzard ever change a core mechanic of the game in such a way? raids got more easy modes with worse loot, arena got solo shuffle with worse loot (no glad mount/title) so i dont see M+ being changed that much. What i could think about is something like "LFM+" with random matchmaking like the LFR which replaces delves after TWW, offers a similar reward structure as delves with champion gear / hero vault gear and a deathlimit instead of a timer and uses the same dungeons/affixes regular M+ does so people get a better entrypoint
I think Raider IO would implement an "avg deaths per run" tracker and people w/o the addon wouldn't get chosen.
Then get rid of Raider IO access to WoW info...
This is what i immediately thought of too. Odds are, especially regarding push keys, you're gonna brick a lot more keys than you time, so your deaths are gonna be high on average. Even if they limited it to only completed keys this will just coerce players to play specs with immunities, self healing, and damage reduction. Like Dk and paladin who are already high tier because of these things and stuff they do. Holy priest would prolly be the best healer just because wings is a communicable cheat death. This would just make everything wrong with the game worse and people even more toxic.
BAN RAIDER IO
@@gokibros4451Or sap and poly become a real thing again.
Death counter gonna destroy m+
Most of the addons I use are to make my UI look the way I want it, as long as they don't touch those, I'm good.
When they say "addons" they generally mean weakauras specifically.
@@willythemailboy2 can’t imagine playing WoW with no Luxthos weakauras anymore lol the mechanics one they can and I couldn’t care less
@@willythemailboy2 I figure their aim was more around the lines of Deadly Boss Mods DBM, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to copy Final Fantasy and ban all addons.
@@Bersek42 The difference is DBM uses timers and things you're supposed to be able to see while weakauras show things that blizzard has deliberately left out of the API. It also does stuff that DBM doesn't, like automatically assigning targets for dispels and such.
I really hope they don't touch rotational WeakAuras that are used to track cooldowns, procs, resources and whatnot, because those are so much nicer than the default UI.
History is repeating itself. The addon "arms race" was an issue vocalized by WoW devs way back during MoP (or maybe Cata).
In Wrath they had issues with it. They had to disable addons that wrote over the game world to tell you and your group where to stand during a certain boss fight. I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head, but I think it was in ICC
@@la7era1u54 oh you mean the same stuff "the best guild" used to delete the need to think for archimondes "Wrought Chaos" ? or the among us from the lords of dread? or which bomb to put into which hole in the Jailor fight? yeah seems like blizz doesnt give a shit anymore about that one.
@@la7era1u54 The addon you're referring to was called "Advanced Range Finder" and it definitely trivialized any mechanic involving group movement and stacking.
3:30 oh please, we still wouldn't move from our chair, my ass is glued to this thing.
Maybe we wouldn't need weakauras if Blizzard didn't make every boss a f*cking enigma puzzle with invisible pieces on a 5 seconds to wipe deathtimer that require players to make a hugely coordinated ballet dance while we are already busy dealing with the boss and probably his adds? Maybe... Just maybe.... JUST MAKE A COHESIVE F*CKING BOSS FIGHT INSTEAD????
i play without weak auras and tbh in tww you don't really need them,if you read the mechanics and see the casts of the bosses you really know what do to...
I agree, they went way overboard with their weird mechanics, swirlies, death zones, death lines, poison explosions whatever.. And most of the times there isn't even a clear indication of where they are, they overlap or you can't see how far/wide an effect reaches. I'm mentally drained after a raid night I can't imagine doing it without dbm or weak auras.
@@LegendsOfAzeroth-z2g You are not progging mythic that is for sure. Come back after killing Ovinax Mythic without addons and tell us how easy that was.
@@cell4224 true,but i did HC and didnt found it very complicated tbh,much more playeble than Legion or Wod for example
@@cell4224spoiler alert, myt raid is supposed to be hard.
Maybe if players didn't need a 30 page user manual / raid boss, addons were not so important either. Other mmos can have engaging/fun/hard raids too without unnecessarily convoluted bossfights. ^^;;;
The boss fights are not hard, it's just people expect to kill bosses without even learning them.
You know addons is the direct cause of this? See old raid encounters in wow it gets complicated with every patch
that just makes them easy lol
@@1xxvipxx1 Yes I noticed that but always imagined that devs just wanted more epic/complicated/etc fight and it became a slippery slope.
Aside from raids I don't think it is a good practice in general to design your game around 3rd party things.
@@1xxvipxx1 IDK I like the older version of raids like Vanilla WoW & earlier where you had to build your character up outside the raid in order to be able to survive in the raid instead of of dance dance revolution
RPGs players build a character
Shooters build up the twitch skills
God I hope they don't kill the GSE addon. As a 60-year-old with carpel tunnel, I can't play the game without it. It would be goodbye to WoW for me ... which would be heartbreaking, as I've been there since opening day on Vanilla.
Yeah it's baffling how many games will ban add-ons that help with accessibility and not try to add them to the game.
I have a same problem. only 59 years old and whiteout gse mine hand cant play the game anymore
As for mechanics and interface solutions, the goal of this should be to integrade missing things into the game, so people don't feel the need for addons. I heavily rely und weakaura timers for buffs and debuffs as well as additional visual ques for certain abilities. These are things which are simply missing from the base game and should be there.
This will put alot of presssure on healers for sure if they do deaths over time i think.
healers and tanks, like we dont have too few of them allready
I think this is a cop out. Having a dps that knows how to use cc, defensives, positioning, etc still is more valuable than ones that don’t. Having a team that can coordinate through a dungeon is still more valuable than just one good tank and one good healer. As a healer, if I see a dps standing in fire, not using defensives, I’m going to move to kick them. Not my fault no extra pressure.
As a healer this would be a major improvement over the constant rushing. Now there will be more control with CC's and time to actually communicate.
it already does, i quit playing after i got keystone master i havent gotten back on even with an active sub, its insanely stressful its horrible they didnt need to do this at all.
If blizzard were actually fighting addons they would disallow third party addons as a whole and implement addons ppl see as essential themselves, but nooo thats would cost too much money.
i agree with this approach, only by disabling their APIs they can achieve independency from addons. Can't see how any other half-ass solution can produce substantial results
I'm waiting for the addon to tell me if this is good or not
Hahahaha
I look at that screen and see madness if blizzard makes these changes they should make sure the fights are more clear on the directives
naw not at all, should be zero directives, and every mechanic possible should be visible as a giant red circle/cone/square. they mob swinging a sword, red cone on the ground bright red bright enough to burn out your retnas, blizzard was cast giant bright red circle, etc.
If they remove timer and put a death limit, a healer dying at a boss = wipe a tank dying to boss/pack = wipe and deaths are gone
Exactly, and the same toxicity will appear. Then later they will cater to them casuals who yells "remove death limit"
Not necessarily
I can't count how many times tank outlived a grp for a kill
@@espenpaulsen428 well the majority of players aren't competitive so most would say death to any counters
@@YumYum820 kinda missing the point here
With evoker people want to play them but they look so bad, not many want to run around as a skinny little dragon with a loin cloth and shoulder pads as armour
Yea they look so gay.
I don't know why they don't just let Evokers stay in their visage form permanently like other Dracthyr classes can.
@@Notorious1441 because it makes no sense to use things like breath of eons, deep breath, dream flight, dream breath, fire breath, and rescue without wings
They need to make their tier sets always visible. That would already add more people
@liamdavies2823 oh yeah for sure but surely they can make so your full armour is displayed on you when in dragon form
put a pause button in (for them afk situations) if something is pulled timer restarts, stop keys diminishing, simple
Or even if a player moves 5y or something. That's a better idea than death counter. Am I the only person who enjoys the pace of higher keys and push keys?
reason why you find a high keys range for you to choose from , is the result of keys being depleted , i like how every wow player who don't understand the consequences of stuff type "simple 🤓" , everything from keys being immune to depletion is good on paper , but is it a good system in the long term ? no its not , they made a 12 immunity for depletions for key pushers now , and that's what matters , do people really think that pushing a +7 matter , not does not , its a low key , not really much of a challenge there.
it would be really fun to have "follower duengons" options for ALL duengons and raids in ALL settings (N/H/M/M+) to help individuals train and recognize the places in various roles where they are not costing a whole team for their education, training, and failures. Id really enjoy this.
Add a dungeon mode with only increasing difficulty for those who want to relax and get their high rewards. Dont ruin m+ for everyone who actually enjoy it
Exactly. They need top catering to these cry babies that can't handle a challenge. The game is extremely easy.
Pretty sure this would be delves with higher scaling and reward. It's right there and easy to implement. Not sure why they haven't.
Majority hate M+, soooo the cry babies are majority of the player base and sadly, you are the minority. Suck it up buttercup, pull up your boot straps, and enjoy the easier game. Or play FF14 that has no mods and has well built encounters.
@@izzylyonssyeah make m+ harder than myth raid and delves so the rewards aren't worth it!
Easier content should not give high tier gear...
ion is so bad at his job its brutal
I love the insane notion that people would wait for lust on every pull. Literally no one is willing to wait for that. We have shit to do.
Yes! Whenever I read some one else trying to make that claim I always think, "You can't be serious....."
Yeah maybe in your +7 keys people wont but in actually difficulty 12 and up? for sure
@@courtesan8784Then let them. Who cares.
@@willo1345 who cares about bad players that cant handle heroic dungeon difficulty?
@@courtesan8784 No one, why do you?
For me, I am very audibly inclined when taking in information. I benefit a ton from hearing my DBM announcer say "interrupt" or "Use Defensive" and I'm way faster to react to that than I am visually, my brain just processes it faster. This probably explains why I'm dogshit at certain mechanics if they're visual or at least slower to get a hang of. Besides that, I don't use weak auras at all. I have NeedToKnow setup for my important cooldowns, buffs/debuffs, etc, and that's it. Much like what the top comment says when it comes to clearly defined mechanics, they should not only be visually identifiable, but audibly identifiable for us who are more attuned for that type of information gathering.
I'm sorry but addons have been a required part of raiding since WOTLK. Fights were way easier pre-addon, and the raids are not do-able without some addons at mythic level. Sure normal, LFR, even heroic... but they need to make huge changes if they want mythic to be do able without
Who do you think the pug all stars will blame those deaths on?
bruh if people think M+ is toxic now, a death counter will make it infinitely worse. just imagine, in between pulls people literally stopping to flame each other *because you can*, or the whole thing gets bricked because that one guy stood in a puddle on the last boss.
if there is only one way to fail, then there is really only one way to flame and if you give degens the time to flame in between pulls, you better believe they WILL do it.
The M+ killed the dungeons for me. Raiding, doing dungeons were a fun journey for me where the loot was just icing on a delicious cake. We were playing together. Since the M+ is everything about rushing through in the shortest way, looting and the end and repeat like we are doing chores. Not to mention of the classbalance became extremely important which is the weakest feature of the Blizzard design department. The death/wipe count would be better for me. I think both ways could live beside each other. Who just want brainless fast paced runs, do the old way, and others would choose the newer but classical way.
If you don’t like M+ you can run normal mythics with your friend. Most M+ players like the challenge of blitzing a key and doing crazy pulls and fully utilising their class tool box.
@@mumu94595 Yeah man, do regular mythic dungeons for the incredible Veteran gear and low tier crests lmfao. That's not even close to a solution
@@mumu94595you cholos can still zerg keys for your epeen. Wouldn't affect world competitions for time.
@@Testoodope the guy said “loot was the icing on the cake”. The best gear should only come from the toughest content. Dumbing down mythic+ for people who want an untimed dungeon experience seems stupid. They can run normal mythics or just let the timer expire with a “completion” group. If they can’t progress it a skill issue. Why punish the rest of the player base?
@@Testoodope I've never understood why super casual players would want the best gear in the game? What are they going to do with it? Do World Quests quicker?
Go with deaths, but keep the timer that has cosmetic rewards for the sweat-lords and bragging rights/leaderboards that use fastest runs as a metric
if thats what youre going for then why remove the timer at all?
why not just play the game the way it is right now? the timer really doesnt matter...if you complete the dungeon in 1 hour or 2 or 3 or 4 or 8 youll still get vault rewards, youll still get crests and youll get loot at the end of the dungeon.
so whats the point of removing the timer?
if youre going to remove the timer then you might as well remove the key scaling system as well since the timer is at least 50% of the challenge in high keys.
and if youre going to remove the scaling system, then we can just go back to good ol mythic 0s...so why dont you just do m0s?
oh because you want better "rewards"
THEN EARN IT lol.
The existence of a timer, in any form, is what makes the current experience toxic. Someone who wants those cosmetics/position on the leaderboard will be just as toxic to the other members of the party.
@@jgro9 Usually when dorks like you type out multi-paragraph tirades over a change that's beneficial in the game for the many versus the few, you're probably gonna have a real bad time later on.
i.e. cry more
@@CosmicClericif we go deeper, i’d say the idea of failing is what breeds toxicity. Basically, in any challenge with a team setting, there will be toxicity. Timer or not (look at raid or any team game).
@EnergizingBane but with timers toxicity happens before the failure point does ("You're going the wrong way!", "You're not going fast enough!", etc.), so that kind of argues against the point you're making.
I'm advocating for hard Dungeon Crawls, and not Esports obstacle courses with timers. Esports with timers cause toxicity much more so than dungeon crawls.
[CC BY-NC-SA 4.0]
I had the thought of removing the time limit from m+... but a surprising number of people in this community see speed as the only measurable skill that is worth having and thus removing the timer would probably not go over well with them.
That being said, I do think that the idea of a version of difficult dungeon where speed wasn't the primary skill being measured in addition to the timed m+(maybe just make it so when you get your key you select either a timed or a death based key and they're fundamentally identical just one has a timer, the other has a death counter or something else.
As a tank, i would quit playing the game altogether. Im not playing M+ to complete. I build the best, versatile group i can to beat the timer by as much as possible.
Is your group mid, barely completing on time, or are you a badass group that ++, or +++?
I play for the challenge, if all i gotta do is complete the dungeon gameplay would be way slower and alot easier = boring.
Not necessarily. What if you couldn't tank all the mobs in one group without getting crushed as tank.
Imagine a scenario where like +2-4 M+ as a geared tank you COULD pull all mobs in a group or maybe even 2 groups, but they start to scale up in say an 8,9 or 10 and now you are getting hammered and the group has to employ some strategy and SKILL to manage the mobs otherwise you get wrecked as the tank.
Now we are talking a bit of planning, coordination and execution that will take highly skilled folks for those higher keys. This will engage more of the group, less focus on DPS outright and more about whether that mage can keep X mob sheeped, or the rogue is keeping that sap rolling, or a hunter pet is off-tanking while you are burning down the others.
Could add some fun and challenging gameplay. Would maybe allow devs to expand on some cool unique enemy ideas in the dungeons since it no longer has to be a speed gauntlet.
Just my 2c.
Then create the challenge yourself by completing it as fast as possible. Problem solved 😊
Lmao nerd
@@enterjudas8543nope. The problem? People would be absolutely pissed that you, the tank, are pulling multiple packs quickly because you are risking deaths. You are actively discouraged from playing how you want and WILL be forced to play one pack at a time especially when you start doing 17s and shit.
@@dmoto131
Surprise, that already happens. You have to cc, kite, press defensives, use externals, interrupt casts, mitigate specific type of damage, dispel, purge etc in regular m+ right now.
And it's been the case since m+ was implemented. You don't have to imagine any hypothetical scenario when in, say a 14-15 there are things that will oneshot a player unless your group employs certain strategies to avoid it.
Timer is the biggest barrier to entry for M+.
Look at season one for an average newcommer.
Level up to cap, do some open world, some delves and jump into an M+ that gives item upgrades, because that sounds like the reasonable level. Same step up in reward level as before.
That means starting doing M+ at around +7 level keys with half of the dungeon pool being dungeons you've never seen.
Way to much happening for the newcommer and no time to learn or analyse what happened because we are on a timer. Assuming they get in.
And veterans don't have time to guide or help because they too are on the timer.
And Thrall help you if your newbie was tanking.
Dungeons used to have varied types of encounters. Plain old mob packs, rooms full of traps (explosives, slows, stealthed mobs) requiring careful and planned movement, gauntlets that you rushed as far as you dared each pull, stand your ground scenarios and more. But in M+, due to the timer, the entire dungeon is one long gauntlet. And if the dungeon could not support that it would be reworked to do so or never be brought up to M+.
Simple things like elevators not controlled by players are a problem for M+ due to the timer. But without it they don't have to be as pass/fail.
Is this a Failure of the timer being a barrier or that Mythic 0 is piss easy and doesn't actually push us in any meaningful way? We stomped mythic 0's and it was suppose to be a +10 but it felt like a old heroic. This is where they need to add a death counter and push up the difficultly up. If people want slower dungeons with pre pull stuns and slows and such we have classic for that type of play
This is spot on. Sooo many more options when you ditch the timer. Devs can ramp up the difficulty in other ways. Bring back enrage timers for bosses.
Allow the player base to come together again and remove a massive amount of the toxicity as a result of the timer. As a veteran player, I wouldn't mind helping out some newer folks, but I just don't have the patience for them when we are on a timer.
Death count would actually encourage people helping others and newer players asking questions to avoids unnecessary deaths. I'm tired of the current system and would welcome a significant overhaul.
i had so many bad people in +10 and +11 keys i was wondering if they were new.
making the timer go away i will have the same bad people play higher keys where they dont belong. so now the chance of not bricking the key will be higher because they keep dying too much. i will quit the game. back then atleast from what remember dungeons were not that difficult. classic maybe but since bc? naa. never used CC.
I'm newcomer of this season. Without a timer I will 100% stop playing. It would be boring as hell
@@dmoto131 Then the hard bosses need to be early. Imagine the toxicity after spending 50min slow pulling a dungeon then you get the the last boss and your dps players are just not even close to kill the boss before the enrage.
I’d literally quit the game immediately if they got rid of mythic+ and if they got rid of Add-ons I’d consider quitting as well
On the addon topic - 100% agree and I do hope they prune some of the addons that do the fight for the raiders. I think that the most effective way to battle addons is to make the fights a bit more forgiving BUT to randomize the timers too so that stuff aren't hard coded and therefore predictable
A well geared feral Druid can reasonably save a group when a tank dies. I've done this with decently geared Ret Pallys and Havoc DHs (scenario depending)
Closing off 2025? My guy is in the future @0:15
Michael is living in the future. 😂
I've been making that mistake for months now. I think we all went through a wormhole lol
how about 0 addons realm? we have hardocre realms, why dont they do that?
YES!!!
I would support this. Addons are going way too far today. Looking at all the WeakAuras, that use Excel-Sheets to calculate things is just too much.
Then you just get the stealth client side addons
Because if you don't want to use addons you can just not use addons. But I don't see why they couldn't have a check box for dungeons that blocks addons from the group. But if you would join a group like that you could easily just turn them all off instead. An if this addon thing was really an issue a lot if people would already be doing that. Many of them should have just been incorporated into the game a long time ago.
@@timtrepanier9845 I can't just don't use addons. Game design won't let me. Thats the point. Over the years game is going to more and more one direction: to only be playable with addons. Unless u wanna just wonder around, pickup flowers and play RP. You can't be competetive without addons.
Beullular and this whole comment section make me so sad and upset to be around. It's FULL of whining around the HARDEST content in the game being too hard for them...does someone need to just straight up tell you it's not for you, or what??? Put the mythic dungeons and raiding down if you cant handle it. I've had the most fun ever since I've started playing at the end of Classic with the challenge of doing these types of content. Bellular is just inspiring people to make all walks of this game be for casuals. It's straight up bad rhetoric.
I know right!!!!
All these people do is whine and because of it, they’re making a part of the community suffer
Only addon I couldn't play without is Details. Not being about to see what is going on with your own spell interactions and how much dps/ hps everything is doing you are just playing in the dark. This is how you get better at your spec, by looking at logs and seeing what was working and what is not working testing different trinkets, talents, and spells.
Set death count as a stadard metric for m+ . Keep the timer for a separate dungeon "time attack" mode with no loot attached to it. Make it give OUTSTANDING cosmetic rewards like challenge mode did back in MoP. This way you can get your gear with m+, and then you can get your juicy cosmetic rewards with the time attack mode. No deplete, built in reset button, difficulty set at +15 with a timer and a specific set of 4 affixes.
Not having a timer means you can properly CC mobs and do things right and not just pull half the room at once.
Yes, you understand my good friend!!
You can properly cc mobs with a timer too. And you can also do it while simultaneously pulling half a room as well. In fact, high ranked m+ players are way better at properly ccing mobs, lining casts, slowing, kiting, interrupting, using defensives, throwing externals, choosing priority targets etc and they do it quickly and under pressure while they tank/dps/heal at the same time.
What's the challenge in casting sheep on focus several times or throwing a trap onto a mob while you dps the other three down?
Why can't they just have multiple M+ modes? Even a custom mode where players can experiment with rules and tuning? Could be cool!
You can't have "choose your options" m+ because then you don't have standardized conditions for your m+ score. If they need different modes, they can't all be "mythic plus." They need to be separate gameplay pillars.
@@jae368 That's obvious, not sure what your argument is. Think outside the box.
Have timers and death counts, two separate modes. PVP has a bunch of different modes, do the same for dungeons.
PvP also has solo queue in which you can reach the highest rating. I would love a M+ solo queue system so I don't have to spend 30+ minutes trying to put a group together every time I want to play the game.
Maybe the timer could stay just as an extra optional difficulty for more hardcore players just for the prestige or for example the ladder board or maybe for Achievement with some cosmetic rewards like in old Challenge Mode.
I think a good portion of m+ is misaligned goals.
I read a forum post that really nailed it for me. No more 'standard' m+ posts. Make clear of your goal, if you join a standard group where 2/5 want time 2/5 just want completion and one just wants to pick their nose with whatever happens. Group isn't aligned on what success means. Force what the expectations are in the posting and you only get the same minded players. Won't guarantee success but at least you know that everyone is working for the same goal.
This way when someone leaves you can look at the timer and go, "yeah, not gonna make it" and you don't feel as bad.
That's the problem there having standard option. Blizzard needs get rid of it keep beat timer and completion. If click beat timer and few wipes not going time it then expect people to leave. Completion you must stay maximum of hour finish key
Make all timers a flat 60 minutes. Expiration on the timer just kicks you out of the dungeon. The timer is still there, but its so long that it won't matter except to the idiots who think waiting for heroism is valid.
All this does is increase the key cap to +20 to +30 then it's the same problem.
Timer was never an issue , we had timer in shadowland ,bfa,deagon flight ,… . The problem is most players dont know mechanics , they jump in and they want to treat dungeons like diablo style . Just blast it thru style .most of my guild are elderly who have hard time to clear Heroic raid . And when i take them to m+ , i have explain ,”hey here is part that you need to use interrupts,or def ..” . Highest they have done by themselves are m+ 2-3 and with me they got their 10s done .(i am 15s all ) . Game is designed for fast paced environments but most players are getting old for this . They want pet/garrison/housing which is too weird and waste time and i hate loot “chair/windows” at the end of my runs . And even some players are not prepared. I was doing 14s and the grp didnt have brez/flask/… cause its too expensive for them . I think issue is community and they are killing the fun of the game for casuals
Removing the M+ timer would probably mean less specs getting rejected because they aren't the current meta, even though it would probably take the community a while to adapt. Shouldn't be a death counter though, should be a fail encounter... counter; any situation where the mobs reset.
so, correct blizzards inability to class-balance not by balancing class, but by breaking the single most beloved play mode in wow?
@@rainevasquez662 You can';t balance 40 specs around such a niche activity. M+ is not the most beloved mode either dumb dumb
@@rainevasquez662 Exactly, if they remove timer its actually dead game mode. I don't enjoy the super punishing game play style M+ currently is but I'd rather have that than no timer.
it will likely end up causing groups to take classes with longer more impactful cds for killing bosses and better single target classes to prevent boss wipes and just take it slower on packs
TImer or no Timer, There's virtually no reward for busting your butt in a dungeon which makes it automatically not fun. Removing addons would make the game even more not fun.. Blaming something fun like addons is just poor leadership and poor design. If the ilvl reward was 636 M+ would be fun. Instead, its just awful and always has been awful for rewards vs time.
lol heroic gear in 30minutes vs a raid which is +/- 2 hours.
"something fun like addons" ...........
@@Aefax add-ons make the game fun...sadly
@@shaun2686M+ takes longer. On average you spend just an hour getting a group
@@shaun2686 It takes an hour just to get a decent M+ group, if you have a guild raiding is almost automatic.
In my opinion, this is great. I like doing raids without addon and have fun learning the mechanics. I think it is an incredibly self destructing culture with people downloading addons that enable them to be able to do content they think they don’t need to put effort in that is designed for you to do so.
"Using DBM or weakauras doesn't make you bad, plenty good players use it, I use it so I can chill out more and not focus so hard etc"
Precisely! It is not something you have gotten because you think you need an upper hand, or a handicap, but it in many ways are exactly that. It's a good crutch for new players, but back in the day people did fine, because it wasn't that friggin serious either. We have players demanding you download these type of mods to play, so they have controll of the damage output and what you're doing.
But the worst thing is that the need for these types of addons is primarily comming from problems the addons are created to solve.
What the heck guys, why is that on the game developers to tweak, so your addon works? It's the other way around, mate!
Download better addons, or hell use cheats. In my opinion things like weakauras already blurr the lines on what should be allowed to have interfere with the game, and that is because using it actually negatively affects people who don’t use it. Maybe not in the way that you would expect, but that doesn't make it less true.
A lot of people that wanted Classic was so they had access to simpler game mechanics that was more fun and engaging that you don’t need thousands of addons to run, and can interact with the game without having seisures.
If Blizzard goes ahead with "clawing back functionality" we might have that same feeling back in the game in the future. Sure, it removes some agency of what addons will be allowed to use, but if the game is better for it, I am 100% down.
For mythic plus, I think they should keep the timer. But make it so that when you complete the dungeon you get rewards and crests as it is now, maybe even make the depletion crest the same as timed. Instead of getting additional crests for beating the timer make it so you get an additional piece of loot or a larger % of gold drop, gives you insentive to push, but also you can have *chill* groups for just completion
Keep timer, remove the penalty for dying, and, for Christ sake, don’t make us respawn at the start of the dungeon if we wipe.
Also, for the love of God put a goddamn marker on the map for where I respawn. So dying isn't a game of, will I be verbally abused if I release and its far away? Or will I be screeched at if I don't release because the spawn point is close by?
Respawning at the start of the dungeon should remain as the DeFacto penalty for wiping but any other penalty should not be present
Have to disagree here.. remove timer make mobs MORE important vs. just fodder. Have players/classes actually USE more of their toolkits as a group/team. Mages sheeping again.. maybe a rogue temporarily evasion tanking or stun locking a mob down to keep it under control and take some load off of a tank. Perhaps making sure a certain enemy is silenced etc. Maybe a lock or a hunter using a pet to off tank a secondary mob on a boss fight or having someone have to kite it etc.
Bring back some mob management. Hunters actually using traps again. Devs would actually be able to make more unique enemies with specific abilities to counter more strategically.
Could be fun.
Timer should never have been a thing, it def has to go away
@@dmoto131 Where is fun in "mages sheeping again"? I remember old times in early Cata heroics where you would place CC in every Thrashgroup. It just took so much time waiting for everyone to CC and having double the time to DPS a group down, because you cant do AOE on all mobs.
The Mob Management right now with a timer is much more important. Not Kicking/CCing some spells is a death and thus 15+secounds timeloss.
Attacking Addons would be a really dumb move. A game like Final Fantasy XIV can afford to have to addons because the game baseline gives you what you need to worry about and customization is great. WoW base UI on the other hand is awful and the customization you get to fix it is called WeakAuras.
Skill issue, I did nyalotha mythic on content with no add-ons and it was fine until carapace.
Wow is playable without add-ons, people just have to learn to play the game properly, and that is the crux of the issue, people want to be carried by add-ons so they don't have to learn.
Nobody is seriously raiding in FFXIV without parsing, and in WoW most content outside of Mythic only needs a limited amount of addons without WeakAuras.
@@michaelc657 this is true, logs are the only way to show improvement in xiv, without them I'd still be a complete potato like I was for ~6 years.
Anyone serious about raiding and doesn't want to be a letdown to their teams uses parsing tools.
@@michaelc657 it's not about parsers. WoW base game doesn't even show you your own buffs/debuffs separetely for you to track them. FFXIV does it with its base ui. Bad UI is just bad UI
On the topic of raids & add-ons: Got CE every tier from EN to Ny'alotha, stopped playing retail before getting CE in CN, and the add-on and WA bloat becomes absolutely disgusting fast. The biggest issue isn't the complexity of the fights on its own, nor whether the game is "holding your hand" with the information it gives you; it's that you're raiding with 19 other people that you have no control or real influence over how they play. As in, you, yourself, could be good enough to do every mythic fight with zero add-ons with no difficulty, but it's a requirement for you to run a laundry list of add-ons and WAs, because it's highly unlikely to find a guild that consistently pushes CE where all 19 others would manage it _without_ add-ons and WAs. (Not saying I was ever that player, but I've had team members in raids that definitely could if so inclined.) The full guild has to use add-ons that give information the game doesn't or in a fashion easier than the game does to cater for the absolute lowest common denominator that players are willing to take into that content.
And leaving out the topic of difficulty: It just looks absolutely horrible. All the garbage popping up all over the screen is effectively a visual catalyst for severe nausea. If all that is just streamlined right into the stock client and not made into a massive eyesore, at the very least I wouldn't want to get my eyeballs bleached after a raid night.
Ive been playing around with the idea of getting the 1-3 chest system back, where +1 chest is without timer and 2-3 chest is timed.
No punishment for going slow, just better rewarded for going fast.
"You are cutting addon now? Why not 20 years ago?" meme
He wasn't there 20 years ago
It was nowhere near as bad 13+ years ago. The only things we had were convenience addons, with DBM being the outlier, which Blizzard didnt seem that bothered about as it didnt actually play the game for you, simply gave you the timers in an easy to read position on the screen. Now with things like Weakauras it can literally play the game for you, such as your dps rotation or some shit. Ludicrous.
I'm sick of people who don't enjoy Mythic + trying to change it and rip the rug out from under the feat of those who do.
same brother! or sister!
they want their "participation gear" so they can ...do what? lol, they dont think.
It does all boil down to “it’s a skill issue,” but the mechanics are not transparent and addons like plater are a requirement.
@@yayano8415 so required that I don't use it. Sure.
How about a wipe counter instead of a death count per player
So you keep a hunter or nightelf around, so that they can reset to avoid the wipe counter incrementing? Also it would be a big problem to have death counters visible "outside," because people would leave just to avoid it going up and ruining their score. But I think it's a good idea to count deaths instead of time for m+. If it weren't so hectic, they could raise the difficulty, necessitate CC and careful pulling. It shouldn't become a slog taking an hour or more though... often there are bosses groups cannot do even when the timer is already at zero, just for the weekly vault.
If they are going to get rid of the timer they should also allow you to change talents mid dungeon as there is no point for that to be locked if they are getting rid of the timer.
easiest solution for the dungeon timer vs death .....give the choice to the group. use pedestal like keys for M+ drop down menu for you to choose and then go. easy peasy. could even give different rewards for each run style
Blizzard needs to make their game as they see it. You cant make a game for people who CHOOSE to use add-ons that sterilize the game and nullify all the things that make the game fun and challenging. You cannot protect people from themselves.
I've been wanting a no timer dungeon end-game for a long time. If people want to keep the timer so badly, blizz can leave it in as a separate mode and the small pool of miserable m+ sweats can just go run that in their corner all day I guess.
so you want to change m+ into delves, the most boring game mode. the only reason people did was to get easy gear
Trying to make M+ into this new "one size fits all" is going to finally kill my favorite game mode...
This sounds fantastic. No more m+ timers and fewer addons for raiding is pretty great. I haven't used any raiding addons since WoD, but still.
Death counter would also promote Tabks to take more defensive talents rather than push for the bare minimum and pump everything they can into damage talents to help the DPS race to meet timer. Same with healers, whom would be encouraged to focus on their sustainability rather than how ofthen can they burst.
Almost wish you would stop covering m+ because the opinions you give on it always make it really obvious that it's not a game mode you play and your viewers end up parroting your opinions as if they're fact.
I will never do m+ til the timer is gone. Not interested in that kinda stress in world of freaking Warcraft lmao.
WoW is a casual game... make the dungeons casual/chill (no timers).. I know some people love the challenge but the majority of players always used to be casuals. As for Weak Auras.. I've never used them, never needed them, BUT the visual noise on the screen during raids especially big groups got to be way to much even back during Legion. IDK what it's like now, i'm not playing and it's going to take a lot of WoW changes for me to consider coming back
LOL what a terrible take. WoW can be, and is, both a casual and competitive game. If you don't like timers stick to heroic dungeons
The addon issue is entirely within Blizzards control, the problem they're going to have though is that if they do choose to scale this back, they can't simply recycle older content because it will become pretty much impossible.
With M+, the problem with a timer is that it just boils down to a math problem of how can the group do the most dps? They've tried a few things with AoE caps and such as extra knobs to tune but it will always come down to a question of maximising DPS while avoiding deaths - and this creates a meta which, whether people like it or not, trickles down into the general playerbase.
Having deaths as a deciding factor is interesting but I expect that for those pushing higher keys, the question then becomes who has the most survivability and cooldowns that line up the best instead - which will then probably trickle down too. And I wonder whether this will start to influence the overall design where there are more one-shot mechanics.
Also, it's going to massively depend on the threshold, but it could end up with more runs being dead due to early wipes as people leave.
I think removing the timer will result in less deaths ivwralas well. No timer means no need to rush. Which let's you slow everything down, take a break to reset major cool downs, let healer regain manage. You also can just pull smaller packs instead of feeling you need to pull MASSIVE packs. Smaller packs means less damage the tank and healer need to deal with
A lot more ppl would do m+ if there wasn’t a timer
@@brandonneifert3199The game would die the second timers would be removed. Thats not even up for debate.
Nope it wouldn’t, same amount of deaths and then they’d cry, bitch, and moan about a death counter. Most players in keys die because they are so fuckin stupid and can’t stand in circles.
The solution has always been to ban all add-ons but Blizzard tanked their game instead of doing that
Addons on enemies especially, but self buff addons either remain or they need to upgrade UI to weak aura level, like tracking totems, because with so many light flashes I cannot see my totem anywhere, or know if I have certain buff up or not.
If they improve the mechanic visuals the addons will not be an essential requirement an ESO or FF style visual for ground effects and frontals with clearly define borders of what is safe/unsafe would be a great addition too
There is a lot of good in the M+ system. If they got rid of depleted keys, that would single handedly bring tons of people back. You can rerun the same key over and over until you beat it, or a new week roles around (then the key rolls to another dungeon/ or lowers).
Thoughts?
If adding a death counter, but worried about having all cooldowns ready for every fights, just add a shot clock like mechanic where cooldowns only atart ticking down while in combat with a raid encounter.
Nice idea, but then people would yell at dps, "Don't kill this last mob! I need to reset X cooldown".
Getting rid of raid lockout for mythic raiding would be massive as well such a easy change and would help tons of guild recruiting and having to pug players. Also changing mythic raiding to flex, or flat 15 or 10man. Ive been a guild master/raid leader for over 10 yrs and the biggest issue is always recruitment and getting 20 players. My guild played SOD and it was so easy to have 10ppl every week. we even ran multiple runs per week but when they shifted from 10m it killed our guild on sod.
You can add a chest at the end for every boss killed, loot in it should be coming from the entire drop table of the dungeon not just the specific boss ( so that the players see a value in killing all bosses instead of seeing a value in skipping as much of thee dungeon to get to the end)
I would love to see them do away with timers for Mythic+. I hate having to feel like I'm being rushed through everything and have no way to pause if I need to step away for any reason. I think your point about Mythic+ death count being too harsh on tank has some merit though. Thing is, I can also see a few easy ways to fix it.
What if instead of it being a death count, it was a resurrection count. When players release spirit, they teleport back to the start of the dungeon. What if there's a gate there that you can only open by spending one of your resurrections. Everyone at that gate can then enter for the next 15 seconds until the gate closes. Then later on in the dungeon a few people died on a pull, so the healer has to cast a mass rez, there's another resurrection gone. Or mid fight you desperately need to use a battle rez, there's another one gone. This way if everybody wipes from a tank dying it has the same detriment to the group as if a random dps or two dies. The only downside I can see to this is a group deciding that one dps being dead isn't worth using a resurrection so they have to sit there for a little while, but this could also be solved by requiring either all party members to be alive or to be out of resurrections before starting a boss fight.
The removal of the M+ Timer is the sole reason why i think of starting commiting again into endgame wow alone.
It was one of the reasons why i never could commit fully since Legion, the Time sucked all fun out of this System and thereforce the endgame.
I am very excited to go back!
That Mythic+ sounds like something I would actually enjoy. Good players being good, instead of just "gotta go fast, go go go go go"
they should have regular (fast) M+ and new (slow) M+ at the same time, and you can do either, get a key, and the key an be used to do either type
I was just surveyed about PvP a couple days ago which i found kind of crazy but i like that there looking at EVERYTHING like they should be forever
As a mythic raider who play since 17 years without addons, it would be amazing if blizzard ban every addon from the game, would shut down alot of big mouths.
Deaths measurement over time also means even if you’re super geared, you can’t have strong dps offset time made by some deaths.
Death timer vs time timer. As a bear tank main. I prefer death timer, more often than not I die because my cooldowns haven't come back, or I am having to go faster by pulling more which overwhelms my cooldowns and if the dps can't pump hard enough without dying, it's a wipe.
Brains and voicechat overloaded is something that together is a force multiplier for people with sensory process issues. I brought this up back when private auras were becoming a thing but SPD is not something that WoW accounts for. It's not something as simple as slapping a color filter on for the color blind (I'm sure that still isn't much help to them but at least they have something). SPD get no handicap other than being told to sit out the fun.
For the M+ change, as someone who pushed a lot of keys in the past, 4-5 deaths in a key was enough to brick it already so it would make sense for that to be the limit on deaths really.
As for the addons, it will never be fixed until Blizzard devs start playing their own game without addons. The game is already old enough to have limitations on how a boss moves to telegraphs their next move, but many times they don’t even have sound queues. As a tank, many of the tank killing mechanics are just a casting bar.
I think Blizzard could do something about the death counters, for example make them a personal counter and it only affects your loot instead of the group's loot if you die. That also has it's own setbacks because if someone dies too much, maybe they would just leave the group but I think this version could go better.