I'm aware Jordan is someone who appreciates debate, so I'm hoping that we can open up this question further. I'm not saying his arguments aren't valid but I don't full agree with it all. Tell me what you think the meaning of music is? I also haven't watched any of Jordan's work before this, so my take isn't based on anything other than what he is saying in this video. I was sent this video to react to.
You make your own meaning for music. It's not something objective. It could be your escape, your drug, your companion, your imagination, anything you like it to be. What I don't agree is John Cage's thesis that all sounds are music. For me it must go through our intelectual process.
I've read a lot of Jordan Peterson's work/musings. I find that I agree with him more than I disagree with him. His words are often cherry-picked and taken out of context - which leads to misunderstanding and castigation. When the media portrays an individual as incendiary or extremely polarizing, I often take that judgement with a grain of salt and go investigate the person further by going directly to the source, research from there and then generate my own opinion. But that's just my practice.
I'm a violinist, spent 40 of my 50 years on this planet playing. It's safe to say I'm obsessed - even had to spend some time with a psychologist trying to find a balance between 'real life' and music. Practicing hours a day, teaching, gigging, recording, busking and on and on. Played for thousands but the moment that defined me as a musician was during lockdown. I was asked to sneak into a friends house and play to her. She had reached the end of her cancer journey and had very little time left. I'd been there a handful of times and the final night I went she was in a hospital bed that had been brought into her living room. Her nurses had just left and her husband (they'd been together since primary school) lay down next to her. I sat at the end of the bed and played The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face, then morphed into something I could never recreate. They drifted away into sleep and i quietly let myself out. I sat on a bench at the backdoor and cried. She never regained consciousness and passed away the next day. Knowing that the last thing she consciously heard was music that I was gifted to be able to play has deeply affected me. All the years of hard work and practice - I've sometimes played a note for hours on end to perfect its tone that noone else would notice - all led me to that audience of 2. The pinnacle moment when it all made perfect sense as to why I was born. Those last few totally improvised and solo notes, were created in essence just for those two human souls. I was honoured to have been there. I played at her funeral and wake, which was a kneesup in our local pub, but none of it matched the quiet 5 minutes max it took for her to let go and slip away in her husband's arms. Music has many faces, and I meet new ones everyday. Like a passionate foodie discovering a new taste or an artist creating their masterpieces or even a sports person who is at the top of their personal and professional best we all have our 'thing'. To try and quantify any passion, you are likely to fail. All I think JP was trying to do was, just that TRYING. Peace Out.
A touching story - thank you for sharing. I can relate to your experience, as I've been blessed to be a part of one or two of those private, deeply personal, completely magical moments in life. Moments that take you beyond _feeling_ emotions, into _living_ them. Sorrow, elation; resentment, and gratitude; pride and humility; love, and... loss; these things are experienced simultaneously and equally. Moments of profound connection, where music is the tie that binds it all together somehow. In these moments it is possible to catch a glimpse of the divinity of balance, and the oneness of things..
Beatiful story. Only by reading it I like to think that that woman, on that night felt it was ok to let go: in the arms of his beloved husband listening to deeply emotional music....it was ok, it was time to stop the fight. Even if you're dying, going out like that means you won.
“Ordinary people can achieve amazing things just by having a guitar and believing in themselves” That struck a chord. Inspirational and beautifully put, Justin. 💖🙏🏻🥰
"Music is the universal language. ... it has the ability to transcend and convey every human emotion that exists without saying a word." - Edward Van Halen
For me it's a very personal experience it's not about art or science. It happens that you find yourself listening to this or that and it's not about how technically good or how popular it is. There's something about that artist or that music that makes a big impression on you at a particular time and place in your life.
@@JayFunningham For example a songwriter is writing songs that a person listening relates to their own experiences whether the writer intended that sort of meaning or not it can come across to the listener as something deeply personal to them. To other people the song may just be rubbish but music can be a unique experience. In itself music is artistic and technical but how I get into it is not planned. I go with my gut. If my friends laugh at me they laugh at me. It's just at a certain time and place a band or piece of music impresses itself on me, it stays in my mind and I'm very happy for it to stay there.
@@levitation25 I think what you’re describing is art - the way it speaks to us on an individual level and our own experiences and personality informs what we get from it. ❤️
I wouldn't say The Ramones were nihilistic. They really put out songs for anyone. And The Clash were a bit serious but positive. And I love SWANS. Taking music back to it's tribal, ritualistic origins of noise and rhythm. Music has been my first choice since I was a little kid. Other choices in my life have diminished or fallen away through the years except music.
I agree with you about The Ramones. They are punk rock with the word rock heavily underlined. Almost a bit of pop sensibility in there too with the catchiness of some songs. If we’re talking about nihilism in punk most of the “blame” surely lies with John Lydon
@@jethrobradley7850 Indeed. Good old John has used the same attitude for decades now. I actually enjoyed P.I.L. more than the Sex Pistols. Well, P.I.L. with Jah Wobble and Keith Levene. Very experimental.
@@jethrobradley7850 I was fortunate to find an old vinyl copy of Keith Levene's Violent Opposition from 1987 last year. Keith is certainty underrated as a guitarist. You can tell The Edge was influenced by Levene's style of playing. Speaking of The Edge, at least Lydon never went the way of dad rock like U2 has in the last couple of decades.
The fact that Jordan Peterson thinks punks are nihilists is just funny. Also that he thinks being anxious, upset and aimless is part of nihilism. He was like, "well nihilists are angry, and punks are angry, so punks must be nihilists." I'm honestly impressed with how many absurd leaps he was able to make is such a short clip.
i would say that music is probably one of the most important things in this world, regardless of what else is happening at any one-time music is what connects people, from the person next door to the person a world away. the love people have for music, bands, artists and so on is unmeasurable. people will defend and argue till the cows come home to protect what they love.. or to tell what they dislike. without a doubt, i can say that music for me is the most important thing i have to keep me going and ticking by in this mad mad world. i have no musical skill to be able to play or sing and i certainly cant understand how music is put together, I'm ok with that because not knowing means i can enjoy music for its purpose of being written and played.
Being in the mosh pit at a Ramone's concert is one of my most cherish memories. Broken pinky finger and squashed toes made it even the more memorable. Anarchy just means freedom and that is the crux of all music. The feeling of having the freedom to simply feel without judgment
Music is here to help you remember. How many times do you hear a song and you remember what you were doing. If you go on holiday if you want to remember more listen to music at the sights you go to and you’ll remember them a lot better
As well as being art and completely abstract, music is also entertainment. Yes, it can be absolutely beautiful, it can give meaning to your life. But it's also just so fun to dance to your favourite songs, or sing as loud as possible with a bunch of friends. Music has so much more going on than one particular purpose. In fact, because it is so abstract, I think it's hard to even say music (art in general) has any purpose at all, and exists for its own sake. But it makes the world go round, and basically everyone enjoys some form of art in one way or another. There's more to it than saying it has a function of some sort
Also. You say about children. I find it fascinating how babies are not taught dancing. Just all of a sudden if a baby hears a catchy tune they dance. Music is so human.
I'm still trying to understand why people feel that there not being a point to anything is depressing or negative. To me it's freeing and takes the pressure completely off. There is nothing to achieve, nothing to qualify for.
An opportunity to belong is an antidote to nihilism as it gives people a feeling of meaning. Loving your channel, your content is excellent. It's breathe of topics and genres is great. Keep up the good work.
"It's not an antidote to despair - it's an opportunity to belong." But those are exactly the same thing, bud :) And the point is simply to realize where the human mind goes (despair) when you stop noticing the beauty that's all around. Music breaks through our super-useful-but-still-sterile analytical brain and gets us *feeling* again. But we can feel the world (and thus connection to it) at every moment we remember to, music or no, when we recapture our focus and place it again on something sensory. Just try it for some moments, simply focusing on any of your five senses without thinking about them too much, and you get joy. And then with that joy one starts to do more of what is right - more of what must be done - but with joy. You're unblocked and connected to life - which is the ultimate belonging. And the feeling goes away all the time, and returns whenever you remember to refocus.
I appreciate your positive attitude & sharing your thoughts, Justin. If only Peterson could stick to discussions like this - if we might disagree he won't feel like he needs to scream at us. Your response is wonderful. I don't see nihilism as being to common - maybe misplaced attention but not meaninglessness. Peace. Wish you well.
When did he scream at you? Sure someone didn't just tell you something, and you believed it without actually hearing it for yourself? Because I've always seen him behave exactly like this
@@drowningin I take it you've not seen the video someone made by taking a video of JP crying about woke libs and put it in a snipit of an old Command and Conquer game.
Love your thoughtful response to JP's moving account of his ecstatic musical experience. I don't agree with much of his politics but he does occasionally surprise me with his take on things. It doesn't sound like you disagree with him that much. It may be down to your differing perspectives. You as full time musician and him as a probably occasional gig goer but the transcendental feeling l got from you both.
People who think he's a "divisive figure" haven't really listened to him beyond clips & establishment media bullshit. Surely he isn't right about everything, but he also doesn't claim to be. I like him because at least he is a sincere person in a world of nonsense. One thing to note is that a lot of times he's referring to an extreme, not everyone. He can be a little cheesy in his earnestness at times, but he's genuinely interested in others & that is refreshing.
Also, agree with you. Idles for example, the bands purpose, if you will, is to confront and overcome the negative or the more complex nihilistic emotions and tendencies we all might have regarding our own existential turmoil and longing for purpose and overcome it through righteous aggression. Joy AS An Act of Resistance!
I can't remember who said it, but I've found that music "is the language of the soul". It's an individuals expression of what dwells within their own spirit.i think it was Andy Latimer of Camel who said that every person has a song within them, and as a musician you play/compose, or whatever it may be, that song over and over and continuously unfold that eternal song that exists within us. It can transcend language, culture, heritage, all of that stuff and be accessible and understood and experienced by anyone. Lol, maybe I'm not communicating it properly, but yes I agree with you, it is so much more than an antidote to nihilism, it is the everlasting expression of oneself. This is why when you listen to an artist you an immediately know who it is, because as individuals we have our own unique way of expressing our own inner being. At the end of the day, it's all part of this beautiful thing we call life and existence, and on a purely primordial level, it comes from the intrinsic design of existence itself, hence why it transcends all material expression and is accessible to each unique spirit of the world. Cheers!
He's emotionally attuned to the experience of living, both the positive and negative aspects. He's also been through near-death experiences which have increased his appreciation for the gift of life. I admire him for being emotionally vulnerable and authentic when there are literally thousands of people chomping at the bit to make him suffer and disappear from the public eye.
The Walter Pater quote, "All art constantly aspires towards the condition of music..." is not about music being the best (although we all know that it is). It means that music is the only artform that is non-representative in it's purest form. Paintings represent things, literature represents things. Music is capable of representing nothing but itself.
People seem to fall somewhere between what is labeled (which always falls short) as left or right thinking. One side wants limits (I won't say which labeled side that is) because it seems, they just have to have a box that everything has to be squeezed into. As we are able to see more and more of the universe as technology expands there is no doubt in my mind that they will pop.
Composer, performer, listener. The Tridium. For most, music is a 'spectator sport' (one of the highest, spiritually speaking). For the ones who participate it is something different.
I wish Peterson would preface his ideas with phrases like "this is how I see the world", "the way it occurs to me" or anything like that. Instead of he always states everything as if it was a fullblown fact instead of conjecture.
It is said that some remarkable writer invented a universe which its deus ex machina brought music before any breathing life and to me this is the tuning point...than came the language. Lymph before Blood....if you wanted to put like that...and musicians took both and made their art. Watch The Day the Earth stood still, the one with Reeves....maybe not the greatest movie, but when he came to the professor's house and resolved basically the theory of everything...he asked previously what it was that noise come from the speakers and the answer is Bach..it says it all...A perfect connection.
A band is a spell, it's members components. The more compatible or proficient or experienced (or whatever enriches a player) the more potent the spell.
I agree with you Justin, but I think he’s specifically referring to people who are in that nihilistic mindset. You aren’t so your appreciation comes from a different place. You can appreciate music, but it might actually save them.
Music is my religion when I play I’m in church speaking to my God. It gives me my perspective and my joy in life. Pythagoras once said man talking to God Is done through Music.
In 200 years.....the songs, the demand and played music will tell who has value in their written music and lyrics. We won't know who's music stays on in humankind. 😊❤😊
Really appreciate your take Justin. I enjoy listening to Dr. Peterson, but he often times will build a complex theory on a foundation that suffers from limited perspective, as you said. His insistence on forcing questions of a spiritual or "soul-ish" nature through a Darwinian/ materialist sort of framework will spiral him into some goofy ad hoc explanations. (Though, he seems to have some belief in the spiritual and is not a materialist).
“Music is probably the one real magic I have encountered in my life. There's not some trick involved with it. It's pure and it's real. It moves, it heals, it communicates and does all these incredible things" .... Tom Petty
He starts with the premise that Nihilists can find meaning in music to explain that music brings meaning to all of our lives. You don't have to be Nihilistic to find that meaning, but even a Nihilist can.
nicely said. Music (really, just beauty in any sensory way) is a thing that makes us grateful to life. But those things are beautiful for no describable reason. Sure, one can say "patterns," but JP's not saying 'which' patterns like he's prescribing some sort of formula - just that there's a way in which beautiful things resonate with our consciousness that gives us the feeling we're missing when we're in despair and nihilistic. And I can't argue with him. I call it 'meaning.'
Music is the glue that holds everything together. I'm a loner and sort of a misanthrope but music makes everything more tolerable - it weaves life together. I just picked up my guitars again after years of not playing...I found my lost soul in that guitar case. Really enjoying your channel & views on music and artists etc.
I always believed that music is the closest to magic that we will ever get to. To be able to shift someone’s mental and physical state by merely organising sounds is seriously magical
precisely. All beauty is this way. Doesn't make sense that we should have such an emotional attachment to it - music, stories, paintings, etc - but we do. Beauty is the world giving back, reminding us "oh, this place IS wondrous after all."
I feel Jordan Peterson has been showing up more and more on reaction channels. As someone who enjoys watching your videos I really hope this is the first and last Jordan Peterson video we see from you.
I hope there are more. Why should Justin have to pander to the sensibilities of liberal snowflakes who are triggered by the mere mention of someone who happens to disagree with you?
@@MrRhurbarb because he doesn't say anything. He just makes assertions and whines when people don't adhere to his demands because he's the ultimate snowflake.
Petersons arguments always seem to rest pretty heavily on confidently made assertions which aren't supported, tested or challenged. For example, his statement that "Non-patterned music is noise" is not the immutable fact he presents it as. Simiilarly, his assertion that "the world's made of patterns" is something you could argue strongly against. Sure, there are lots of patterns but there's lots of randomness too, this doesn't support his 'point' though so it's just discarded. As Justin points out he makes a bunch of sweeping generalisations about Ramones fans and "punk rockers" which seem to be there mainly to support the rest of his argument, and suggest that maybe he doesn't actually know that many 'punks'. This is why he likes appearing on Joe Rogan stuff where he's just allowed to twitter on at length unchallenged while Joe and the audience take another bong hit and congratulate themselves on how deep they are. The only time I've seen Peterson actually challenged he came off as a lot less smart and a lot less convincing. The crying bit was just weird.
Sorry, hadn't watched the whole clip when I was moved to comment and Justin covers some of these points. In my view music is a fundamental part of the human condition and humans have been making 'music' in some form or other since we were living in caves. Different people seek different things in music whether it's the elegance and sophistication of a symphony, or the thumbing bassline in a nightclub which requires no thought but just makes you want to move. Sometimes the same person will seek different things at different times. And many people will hum or whistle to themselves as they do other things; isn't that a form of music making? It seems to me that was Peterson was trying to articulate with his "best guitar player in the world" story is the feeling of appreciating live music as a group experience, the thing that makes live music so fantastic. I can see how that would make one feel that music is the antidote to nihilism, it's kind of how it makes us all feel. But I agree with Justin, and most other commenters on here it seems, that it's much, much more than that.
Peterson far more brilliant than you give him credit for. The times he has gotten challenged like with Cathy Newman or the lengthy GQ interview, he basically destroys them.
@@kickstar1 you are not addressing the points made, simply asserting your admiration for JP without supporting arguments. This is perfectly valid and please do not consider yourself "cancelled", but it is *not* persuasive.
@@nektekket852 liking it or not is fine, as you say cannot argue taste. i think my comment was for someone who argued a technical comment about a skill or else but the comment was deleted
I appreciate how open minded you are about things. It's something that became really clear to me when you did the NFT video. You don't just talk the talk, you're one of those rare cats that really seems to walk the walk. I endeavour to be more like you and to stop and think about the assumptions I hold about people and ideas and to just slow down and think a bit before I react. I want to thoughtfully consider the information I'm being presented. I usually fail more often than I succeed but I'm trying to make that change. I appreciate you and this channel. Cheers sir.
@@michaelshannon9169 I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Did you see the NFT video? I did. You realize that when this video went up, it had a different title and it changed to what it currently is? I didn't say which side I come down on but the massive amount projection you're doing here makes your position clear. Tell me though, what's wrong with being open minded? Do you find it threatening when people don't adhere to strict dogma? That's ok though Michael, just keep feeling good about yourself for insulting people on the internet you know nothing about. If it makes you happy, fill your boots friend.
@O.T. Oss, just so you know, the video of the title changed because it always changes.....it's a clickbait tactic people use to get more views. This channel does it on every video, it annoys me (and other people).
@@tigs6639 ah, very clever. Is title changing "a thing" now then? I've noticed thumbnail upgrades, but often big channels will go back & do it for branding purposes.
The guitarist is Luke Mcqueary. I saw a year ago when I went to pick up my puppy and this kid was unbelievable. He was at Robert's Western Bar where Johnny Hiland used to play. Johnny is a brilliant country player but Luke is like Hendrix meets Brent Mason. I totally understand what Jordan was experiencing but I experienced myself. Def check out Luke Mcqueary if you get a chance.
I found this discussion so valuable. It's interesting to see music being thought of by essentially 2 different types of schools really. For Dr Peterson's obvious love for music, he is still a layman in the sense that he's not a musician, doesn't necessarily have the knowledge that Justin has from years of experience as a working musician. But the good Dr's approach to philosophy, music's profound impact on people I think is true. The core of this whole conversation is that music has an undeniably massive impact on people and individuals. I think there's something profound just in that. Whether you're a rockstar or an academic, music can and does bring people together
@@rosshardinguk From what I've understood he's done his fair share of playing, although not on a professional level. He's talked about himself playing Beethoven sonatas which takes som practice and gives you quite a deep understanding of music I would argue. Although probably not as deep as a professional musician once again.
@@jonatanbefrits5609 I did not know Dr P had musical knowledge. But in my own opinion just listening to Beethoven would give one insight into the massive depths and power of music. Listen to the Piano Sonata No.14 and you shall be moved.
I've said it so many times, I think music is the greatest thing as humans we will ever make. It's the purest thing we have ever done, and ever will do.
@@bjorndunderbeck I'm not so sure about all of those. Animals eat medicinal plants, so I'm not sure humans can take credit for medicine. Surgery is a pretty neat trick though, and resetting bones, etc. And perhaps at one time, domesticated dogs were a wonderful "creation" of humanity, but I think unfortunately humanity kept domesticating them until we jumped the proverbial shark. Dog breeds are warped and not to the advantage of the dogs themselves. I just saw a couple of happy weiner dogs that could barely move in their elongated bodies with short legs. And how often do I see tiny dogs like chihuahuas that seem perpetually frightened and nervous? Is that a wonderous creation, or a monstrosity? What about French Bulldogs that can barely breathe because of their compressed snout shape? What about labradors and retreivers and shepards with genetically bad hips? I invite you to reconsider what a marvel modern dogs are and see that perhaps we humans are screwing them up in usual arrogance that we do things better than nature does.
I surrender to this statement. I love all the arts… But sometimes when I’m listening to a piece of music I’ll say that’s worth 100 paintings or that’s an entire building. And I know it’s not right to compare. I mean the funny thing is you can look at a paint or painting and think what isn’t that kind of mechanical? Although at the same time you can be energetic and lyrical and beautiful. And in order to make music you have to do some thing and master something that is intellectual and emotional and mathematical and mechanical. But when you experience and it’s pure poetry. But I think you can say that about a great tennis or basketball player, as well. It’s all part of the experience of living inside the material world bounded by the rules of physics. The music itself is governed by physics. The experience can be so divine. Ain’t it great to be alive?
I've never ever met a nihilistic punk, quite the opposite. Nihilism, in my experience, is a synthom suffered by people in a deep depression or a bi polar low. Mr. Peterson has a long time fascination with nihilism, good vs evil, etc and as a psychologist is probably over exposed to such maladies in his practice. The rest of the world is way more optimistic and joyous 😊
nihilism is often misinterpreted and im somewhat surprised Peterson plays into it, nihilism is the creation of your own meaning in a world that doesn't give meaning to you. it assumes that religions are fallacious, capitalism and consumerism are at the very least meaningless if not outright bad, and that the various elements of society are continuing to drain meaning from everyday life, basically how humans in the Stone Age had meaning in there life as simple as getting enough food for the week--without that direct need, or with it addressed, daily life boils down into a grind where you are never really going up, nor down. nihilism is the recognition (or agreement with) the idea that the world is meaningless and therefore we as humans need to make our own meaning. actual nihilism is essentially the philosophy of most people who don't subscribe to a religious power, its not a reflection of work ethic or morality or anything like that. theres a lot more to it, like epistemological nihilism (the idea that nothing can be known or communicated _for sure)_ , or cosmic nihilism (the idea that the universe is unintelligible) and its genuinely some of the most interesting stuff to think about and either apply or learn to steer away from. Jordan Peterson, when referring to nihilism, tends to actually refer to either absurdism or philosophical pessimism, both of which share the ideas of the meaningless of life but both are also more "life is pain and the only rewards are death and seeing the absurdity of those around us"
Not sure what time period you are familiar with but in the 80s California punk scene there were plenty of nihilists. Not that their weren't idealistic punks but that was not the norm. I was there and that was certainly what I observed. The UK punk scene or the East Coast punk scene (the Ramones) may have been different.
Peterson is simply saying that music is so inherently meaningful that it can even make a nihilist tap their toes. Basically, music disproves nihilism. The world is inherently meaningful.
@@paulgill2042 How so? It seems pretty fitting for the time, place, culture, and genre. They definitely acted like nihilists, even if they didn't identify as such.
When I hear Peterson talk about music I interpret it as something that’s going on with your core philosophies and principles, the ones you may not even be aware of if you are roaming through life as a reactionary. Music and it’s patterns being an allegory to life itself can affect people on the surface and deep below where your conscious doesn’t go. Sometimes if the path you are on moves with the chosen patterns in a song it can connect and remind your soul that there is meaning to life. You may not notice when it happens, but when it does, and for those moments, your self meets what once was.
Being young punk rocker in the early 80's, I was anything but nihilistic. What ever I was expressing through my music or in the mosh pit was directed at those that didn't care about the environment and planet, and our future on it. It wasn't that the music was saving those of us in the mosh pit from our nihilism. It was more like the chaos we were creating was a call to wake up and start dreaming of a better world. In essence it was a call to someone like JP to step into the pit with us instead of over analyzing life and be alive. But to each his own.
Well said. An old school punk myself to me it's the exact opposite of nihilism. It's very idealistic. Maybe it can be simplistic, but that's not nihilism.
The problem with Jordan Peterson is that he is a man with an opinion, who has been elevated to some kind of all knowing status, because he has a platform and speaks with authority. Educated, travelled, experienced, sure, but ultimately it's just his opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. Much of what he says is deeply questionable, because the world as he sees it, is not the way a lot of other people see it. It is just his experience. I think it is very dangerous to give people with such strong, authoritive outspoken "opinions", such an elevated platform. Hey, a lot of what he says is also good stuff as well. But for him to be seen as some kind of ultimate wise man is shaky ground.
Your music has always been good to listen to, but actually you're an interesting guy to hear speak as well. You make lots of great points and cool that you're making videos so we can hear more than just music but your thoughts and opinions on things too
As a life long musician and someone who finds Jordan Peterson completely frivolous and ridiculous, I truly appreciate your measured take. I aspire to your calm.
@@TheAlibabatree Being a whiny soiboi that cries about the dumbest things and can't form a coherent argument. Have you read 'Maps of Meaning'? It's utter 🐴💩. 12 Rules is a bad joke on kids that need better parents.
@@TheAlibabatree i think the main criticism comes from his label as a "thinker" when his most famous ideas as seen in "12 rules of life" are somewhat amateurish and as novel in their discourse as any other self help book that has come out in the last 20 years.
@@tcrijwanachoudhury With all due respect, i dont think you know much about him. That book is just that. A book. And it happens to have improved millions of struggling peoples lives, so i truly don’t understand the arrogant elitism towards something that is beneficial to humanity. But, if you want to have an intellectual sparing match, i would suggest you dig a bit deeper than just his one self help book aimed at, and beneficial to a specific demographic.
@@TheAlibabatree Jordan Peterson is a nonsensical pseudo intellectual at best and dangerous influence at worst. He offers so little of value in his word salads its hard to critique because its so rambling and self-absorbed. By the time he is crying in this video my eyes have rolled so far back into my head I may have choked on them just a bit. If its improved your life, more power to you I guess, but personally I find his work more detrimental than beneficial to modern society.
Music is emotion made real, tangible .. it can make you cry like a baby or bonce like a ball. Its the only thing in life that has really really ever ment anything to me. It touches my soul while healing my heart and when its done right it can be like a life shot to your very essence.
I appreciate your perspective here and agree with almost everything you've said. I do, however, think you and JP were saying two different things. Music very well could be an antidote to nihilism, especially from the perspective of a clinical psychologist. Many people can receive an antidote for some sort of affliction without ever experiencing the symptoms.
I don't think he's saying music, or even punk music specifically, is only for people who struggle with nihilistic dread. He's saying it's something that can be used to help people in that situation. And that probably his personal experience. He's not saying that's all there is to it. He's saying that's one thing that makes music so valuable and wonderful. It's something that brings comfort to people and brings meaning and purpose. When I'm feeling down on my luck I listen to certain songs. I'll go for a run and find motivation from those stories told and the melodies. So for me it's not necessarily an antidote to nihilism, but rather a motivational force to keep me strong when I'm struggling. I think Peterson is very much speaking about his own struggle with nihilism and in this video he's trying to inspect why music brings him such comfort and meaning. Perhaps a little bit of projection on the rest of the world, but I definitely see where he's coming from. I think we can all remember a time where we felt like giving up on life and we heard music that made us feel better.
2:31 Nihilism includes the idea “that nothing can be known or communicated”. I think that’s where the magic of music works as an antidote: when the track comes on or one starts a jam with the band, suddenly for no known/knowable reason one feels connected - a feeling that the nihilistic mind generally does not feel and, however fleeting, takes hold of the entirety of one’s being for a moment in time. Perhaps one could say that connection is the antidote to nihilism and music is all about connection. I have developed a rather nihilistic outlook on life but I believe it is only a feeling, sometimes I’ve got to stop myself believing that it’s here to stay, it’s only a feeling, anyway 🤙🏼
This is exactly right! You nailed it. Connection and empathy and natural solidarity with one another, the wonder we feel when we catch a glimpse of the same plane we are all on, is indeed the antidote to nihilism. It reminds us why we should give a shit. We are connected, we are not alone, when we give freely and generously of ourselves we find meaning. Music is one of the most powerful and direct lines to this feeling. Jordan Peterson is definitely reductive in his analysis of "what music is", but the point about it being a portal to a place of genuine meaning and connection - something that reminds us of how beautiful and awesome humanity is - is right on the money (and something I would extend to all forms of art).
Music is salvation.... its how I feel feelings... emotions... am that person who's reality is that there's no point .... just a repetitive existence until the inevitable.... were the only input I can have my self is when it ends.. music at least takes me out the misery and energises my thoughts my body ... can give me a euphoria of joy and peace.. Music is beautiful, it triggers ignites awakens calms sooths releases ... I believe it to be a medication for my mind..
To sum up his point of, "music is the antidote to nihilism"; simply he is saying that in music-there is meaning. Even a punk who indulges in nihilism will go to a punk show and dance in a mosh pit (that is meaning) and if you take that idea, that even a nihilistic person can find meaning in a song; clearly, music must have real meaning. So then you compare that to finding meaning in your own life. Think of it as an analogy-in music, if you take a song that typically the artist has something important to say, that you as the listener can relate to, and you add that with harmony and structure; you can find meaning. Without having something to relate to, without the structure, without the harmony; it now just becomes noise (noise=nihilism.) It isn't a meaningful song until you add the ingredients of something important to relate to, harmony, and structure-only THEN will you find meaning; only THEN will you want to dance. So essentially he is using that formula and applying it to life-if you take something important that relates to you, and you add that with structure and harmony; then you can find REAL meaning in your life; and then you can dance to life-almost as if you're dancing to a song that is real meaningful to you.
“Music is probably the one real magic I have encountered in my life. There's not some trick involved with it. It's pure and it's real. It moves, it heals, it communicates and does all these incredible things.” Tom Petty
For me, music enhances life and often reflects it. Music and lyrics can be a form of distilled empathy as well as mad fucking fun, it can make your heart race or make you cry with sadness or joy. Saw The Damned many times as a kid, it was never nihilistic but always celebratory, in the moment, utter fucking life affirming joy. A powerful experience for a 16 year old kid. Music has had a powerful influence on my life.
Peterson's early comment is a point he makes in order to suggest that life is meaningless without believing in a "god" and that this god has a "purpose" for you, and if you don't believe in god and don't believe you were given a purpose, then you have no purpose and you become angry, full of hate, disappointment, negativity, etc. He only says that because he's never really given Nihilism much thought. As an Atheist AND Nihilist, I accept that there is no god, that I was NOT given a purpose by a god, and that there is no inherent purpose for anyone or anything. This idea gives Peterson and other Christians a wave of fear, because they believe in a god, believe this god gave them purpose, and they can't imagine perceiving life any other way. For me, it does not lead to anger, sadness, depression, or the "why bother?" attitude that he promotes. Peterson's take on Nihilism is Reducto Ad Absurdum. It's the view of an inexperienced child. Some days, I'll take an acoustic guitar and go the graveyard, where I will find the grave of yet another person I never met and never knew. I'll read aloud their name, date born, date died, and start playing. As I'm playing, I wonder about their loves, dislikes, fears, hopes, dreams, family, friends, problems, illnesses, and so on. I started doing this in 2003, at my father's grave. Barely knew the guy. Through all of this, I learned that things like what matters in life or what is important is generally a very personal thing based on life experience. Whether bad or good, or anywhere in between, these things share a common thread in that they reside within a space of meaning that is beyond private in most cases. I got a raise in 2015. It was a VERY big deal to me. Who cared? Nobody, beyond my gf and people close to me, who offered congratulations. I got downsized the following year and, again, nobody cared and it made NO difference to anyone in the world. And again, it mattered ONLY to me and people who were truly close to me. As I write this in late 2022, I can confirm that neither of these events holds any importance, value, or significance. Today, I have to spend some time brushing my Maine Coon. It's for his personal health, as well as his appearances. Does anyone care? Does it have any meaning beyond that which is hyper-personal and in-the-moment? Of course not. Generally, it's meaningless. Specifically, it is not. Peterson is a gormless person's idea of what a smart person might be all about. He started his career on a lie about C-16, declaring that people would be arrested for using the wrong pronouns. Anyone who builds a career based on a lie gets NO respect from me.
Some nice thoughts, but you're not being fare towards mr Peterson. In fact you are putting words in his mouth, which is an unpolite thing to do. 1st of all mr J.P. never says anything about music being an _antidote_ - those are your words! J.P. just uses music as an example of the way of the world, how it expresses itself. 2ndly: just because he mentions 2 gigs he’s been to, does not mean that he has not seen others. Those are just examples, it would be boring for the listener, if he’d start listing more examples. And so on, the same attitude all along the video, as if you needed to correct anything mr JP says! And your own example about people singing to their hairdriers proves nothing - yes, it can be about music, but it can also be about just dreaming, not dreaming just of music, but of being admired etc. In a same manner as one can dream about a perfect girl or boyfriend. So, some nice thoughts, but overall quite an arrogant response.
Excellent topic, music is escapism to me. I’ve played drums most of my life and can attest how music can really move people in one direction or another. For some it’s just enough to tap their foot while others are completely immersed. Maybe Jordan Peterson should’ve played guitar? 🎸 It’s rewarding to be a musician when there’s people moving and reacting to your music.
There’s a fantastic simple quote from Andy Warhol….I think it goes “An experience has no atmosphere until it’s a memory”. Music has the innate ability to move you through time and gives an atmosphere to so many things you experience as a human being.
Well said . Peterson is great at spinning out the impression of mastery over any subject , with only fleeting experience or engagement . I think most of what he pontificates in interviews is quite òn the fly '. Hes kind of the bogans `thinking man '.
What JBP is saying comes off super contrived. It feels like he's contorting ideas to make them fit within his framework, even when it doesn't make sense. Like everything in the universe is one of two things.
I don't think he's saying that's ALL music is... I think he's arguing that music makes us feel deep emotions, which are antithetical to nihilism. If you look into existentialism they argue that nihilism is sort of the base level philosophy that we have to overcome as humans- which is what I think he's getting at. Many Punks have nihilistic views (whether they're fully aware of it or not) and he was arguing that their deep appreciation of the music is somewhat contrary to those views. (But he did sound slightly dismissive in this clip). Obviously Peterson comes across as a bit of a shapiro-esque music noob in his little bow tie and all that but he likes lots of interesting bands (for e.g. Acade Fire, Tom Waits and Beach House) and and even plays music himself. But thanks for the video! I love discussing music and philosophy and am a big fan of the channel.
I would argue that you just agreed with what he said. "It's not amenable to rational criticism" is his way of stating that music is way more than can be analyzed. He mentions some common attributes that he has noted but is admitting that music itself defies rational definition.
@@independenceltd. .. It's amazing how much psycho-waffle Peterson spews on any given topic... Mind you, when he tries to analyse society and politics he makes about 1 good point for every 10 lousy, half-arsed, straw man arguments he makes.. If he'd stuck to insulting Woke pronoun zealots of the Transhumanist Movement on steroids I'd have kept my respect for him, but's he talks so much waffle and rubbish I now almost always find him annoying.. This talk is no exception.
@@independenceltd. .. This Peterson talk is 90% intellectual psycho-waffle that didn't explore the Psychology of Music well at all... Peterson is overrated, trumped up and often confused.. Did a good job on the Cancel Culture and Marxist Gender Confusion movements but the rest of his talks are not worth a listen IMO, and I've listened to quite a lot on a (far too) broad range of subjects since he became a PRO SPEAKER on the media circuit, promoting his Conservative self-disciplining manuals and now talking about all sorts of political issues he knows far too little about.. He's so Conservative his extreme anal retention followed by bouts of verbal diarrhoea is cause by his own head repeatedly disappearing up his own drug-addled arse... -- I could slag him off all day as I'm a personal responsibility promoter via Constitutional Direct Democracy and Peterson is vehemently against Direct Democracy and pro Constitutionalism.. D.D. has become a bit of an obsessive pet hate for him... We need need a Libertarian Constitution that requires overwhelming absolute majorities to change or temporarily suspend laws and rights as trusting political parties and Dear Leaders is extremely personally irresponsible. The man's a bit of a lame brain, and a joke... Too much fine wine and too many highly addictive hard drugs + old age.
I think his reaction to the Nashville bar gig is probably because he hasn't experienced it before. Like with most things in life, the first time gives you such a massive buzz, but if you continue to do it all the time, that buzz fades and you have to go more extreme to get the same buzz. It's why so many of us burn out on out passions. It's also why people who look up to musical or sporting heroes don't understand why they may be unhappy even though they seem like they are on top of the world. The journey of getting there is often torturous.
"not everybody can, or should" is a rare bit of cynicism from your normally positive attitude. Maybe you meant not everybody can do it well, and not everyone 'should' in that they don't have to, but music is for everyone. Not everyone can or should do it as a career, but everyone can do music.
Music has made me cry. Helped me through dark times, almost spiritual connection with the pain of an d fragility of an artist ( Cash with Rick Rubin helped me sit in a car in the dark and cry but turned those dark thoughts of self pity to positivity). Music is an emotional release. Allows connection with strangers. A safe zone usually at a gig. An area to be expressive such as a mosh pit, to connect you with a moment in time. To flash back to specific scenarios in your childhood. It’s quite a powerfully manipulative medium at a specific time in your life. As always, interesting blog.
To properly grasp Peterson's meaning on this topic, one would need to understand a more about his general worldview. As a psychologist it isn't surprising that, given the proclivity of humans to seek out patterns, someone mired in the science of psychology would view a given human endeavor as pattern making. I doubt Peterson would argue it is in any way a complete description of what music is, but rather it's relationship to a particular psychological state, in this instance, nihilism.
In a way it's very cool that Mr. Peterson has taken apart the 'meaning' of music as he did, but in a way it's a waste of breath. When I pick up my guitar and play, or listen to something I like, the last thing I'm concerned about is what connection the music has to the meaning of existence.
Mr Hawkins, in listening to both of you, I believe that what both of you are saying is that if not for music, Nihilism would run rampent. Music is the cure for it, not the cause.
Unfortunately Jordan Peterson is crying at the brilliance of his own insight, he literally does it on every topic he talks about, regardless of whether or not he actually has any insight.
Jordan was on those good anxiety pills in this one, I mean he was HOPPED up! Lmao. But I do agree with his perspective on it aside from the fact he talks about everything like it’s coming from his book.
Very interesting - I think Peterson tries to understand how music effects you, but it is not easy to figure this out. the minute you start to rationalize it - it eludes you. I really like him just for making me think of things differently - of course he does not know everything...
Don't take much of what this man says seriously, Justin; he's an expert in one field who thinks that renders him an expert in any field he likes. And so he's extremely easy to debunk on almost anything he says. Just like you did with your usual calm eloquence. He also gets moved to tears a lot recently. PS Klaus from the Umbrella academy looks just like you, particularly in your most recent videos with your shorter hair 😂☔
He's essentially talking about the beauty of art and it's ability to lift us out of nihilism, depression or just general sadness into pure 'awe'. What's not to understand?
I personally find JP a little "fluffy" and too soft for me,but I think I kind of agree with him here simply bc Heavy Metal and Hard Rock music saved my life many times as a "nihilistic" teenager.If I hadn't had those sounds,my aimlessness would just dragged on into suicide.For all the deceased musicians I love,I feel like I am trying to live some of my life for them,that they may regain whatever joy that felt was lost through watching the lives of the fans who loved them soooo much.Peter Steele,Chris Cornell,Shannon Hoon,and Layne Staley just to name a few....Oh,and yes,almost all early punk bands were nihilists....Agnostic Front,The Misfits,The Exploited,The Sex Pistols just to name a few...Bad Brains are/were different....I mostly stopped writing and playing music to pursue other interests (just wrote and self published my 1st book),but I still listen to music JUST to fill that feeling of emptiness that still arises now and then.I'll call it temporary nihilism bc it never lasts any more,likely mostly thanks to well,music,lol.
My sense is both JBP and Justin are right on this. Music may be meaningful because it reflects back to us or maybe opens us up to the patternicity of the world. Justin takes this further, by pointing out that we as individuals find meaning and an opportunity to express ourselves when belonging to a group, tribe, band or whatever. The music that calls to us on the level of individual opens us up to a deeper patterned reality. It also provides us the opportunity to express our unique selves through the higher mode, the group.
I'm aware Jordan is someone who appreciates debate, so I'm hoping that we can open up this question further. I'm not saying his arguments aren't valid but I don't full agree with it all. Tell me what you think the meaning of music is? I also haven't watched any of Jordan's work before this, so my take isn't based on anything other than what he is saying in this video. I was sent this video to react to.
Justin, you’d be good at interviewing some of these cultural figures and having a dialogue.
@@cmikesmith664 Agree
You make your own meaning for music. It's not something objective. It could be your escape, your drug, your companion, your imagination, anything you like it to be. What I don't agree is John Cage's thesis that all sounds are music. For me it must go through our intelectual process.
Go on his podcast!
I've read a lot of Jordan Peterson's work/musings. I find that I agree with him more than I disagree with him. His words are often cherry-picked and taken out of context - which leads to misunderstanding and castigation. When the media portrays an individual as incendiary or extremely polarizing, I often take that judgement with a grain of salt and go investigate the person further by going directly to the source, research from there and then generate my own opinion. But that's just my practice.
I'm a violinist, spent 40 of my 50 years on this planet playing. It's safe to say I'm obsessed - even had to spend some time with a psychologist trying to find a balance between 'real life' and music. Practicing hours a day, teaching, gigging, recording, busking and on and on. Played for thousands but the moment that defined me as a musician was during lockdown.
I was asked to sneak into a friends house and play to her. She had reached the end of her cancer journey and had very little time left. I'd been there a handful of times and the final night I went she was in a hospital bed that had been brought into her living room. Her nurses had just left and her husband (they'd been together since primary school) lay down next to her. I sat at the end of the bed and played The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face, then morphed into something I could never recreate. They drifted away into sleep and i quietly let myself out. I sat on a bench at the backdoor and cried. She never regained consciousness and passed away the next day.
Knowing that the last thing she consciously heard was music that I was gifted to be able to play has deeply affected me. All the years of hard work and practice - I've sometimes played a note for hours on end to perfect its tone that noone else would notice - all led me to that audience of 2. The pinnacle moment when it all made perfect sense as to why I was born. Those last few totally improvised and solo notes, were created in essence just for those two human souls. I was honoured to have been there. I played at her funeral and wake, which was a kneesup in our local pub, but none of it matched the quiet 5 minutes max it took for her to let go and slip away in her husband's arms.
Music has many faces, and I meet new ones everyday. Like a passionate foodie discovering a new taste or an artist creating their masterpieces or even a sports person who is at the top of their personal and professional best we all have our 'thing'. To try and quantify any passion, you are likely to fail. All I think JP was trying to do was, just that TRYING. Peace Out.
A touching story - thank you for sharing. I can relate to your experience, as I've been blessed to be a part of one or two of those private, deeply personal, completely magical moments in life. Moments that take you beyond _feeling_ emotions, into _living_ them. Sorrow, elation; resentment, and gratitude; pride and humility; love, and... loss; these things are experienced simultaneously and equally. Moments of profound connection, where music is the tie that binds it all together somehow.
In these moments it is possible to catch a glimpse of the divinity of balance, and the oneness of things..
Beatiful story. Only by reading it I like to think that that woman, on that night felt it was ok to let go: in the arms of his beloved husband listening to deeply emotional music....it was ok, it was time to stop the fight.
Even if you're dying, going out like that means you won.
Now this story is worth becoming emotional over and shedding tears. Thank you. Much more so than some fucking guitar solo.
@@philfrank5601 what would this story be without the music that was played? Terribly awkward, for starters..
@@SineEyed do you have a question?
“Ordinary people can achieve amazing things just by having a guitar and believing in themselves”
That struck a chord. Inspirational and beautifully put, Justin. 💖🙏🏻🥰
Yes!
Justinisms
I'm always blown away by Justin's depth of musical knowledge and really appreciate his philosophical take on the subject.
LOL
"Music is the universal language. ... it has the ability to transcend and convey every human emotion that exists without saying a word." - Edward Van Halen
Is he related to Eddie?
Well, that's not true, now is it.
For me it's a very personal experience it's not about art or science. It happens that you find yourself listening to this or that and it's not about how technically good or how popular it is. There's something about that artist or that music that makes a big impression on you at a particular time and place in your life.
Interesting, I’d say that’s distinctly an art thing. Do you mean it’s not about “technical appreciation” of art?
@@JayFunningham For example a songwriter is writing songs that a person listening relates to their own experiences whether the writer intended that sort of meaning or not it can come across to the listener as something deeply personal to them. To other people the song may just be rubbish but music can be a unique experience. In itself music is artistic and technical but how I get into it is not planned. I go with my gut. If my friends laugh at me they laugh at me. It's just at a certain time and place a band or piece of music impresses itself on me, it stays in my mind and I'm very happy for it to stay there.
@@levitation25 I think what you’re describing is art - the way it speaks to us on an individual level and our own experiences and personality informs what we get from it. ❤️
I wouldn't say The Ramones were nihilistic. They really put out songs for anyone. And The Clash were a bit serious but positive. And I love SWANS. Taking music back to it's tribal, ritualistic origins of noise and rhythm. Music has been my first choice since I was a little kid. Other choices in my life have diminished or fallen away through the years except music.
I agree with you about The Ramones. They are punk rock with the word rock heavily underlined. Almost a bit of pop sensibility in there too with the catchiness of some songs. If we’re talking about nihilism in punk most of the “blame” surely lies with John Lydon
@@jethrobradley7850 Indeed. Good old John has used the same attitude for decades now. I actually enjoyed P.I.L. more than the Sex Pistols. Well, P.I.L. with Jah Wobble and Keith Levene. Very experimental.
@@mikewilson3581 Aye. I didn’t mind some of the later PIL stuff too.
@@jethrobradley7850 I was fortunate to find an old vinyl copy of Keith Levene's Violent Opposition from 1987 last year. Keith is certainty underrated as a guitarist. You can tell The Edge was influenced by Levene's style of playing. Speaking of The Edge, at least Lydon never went the way of dad rock like U2 has in the last couple of decades.
The fact that Jordan Peterson thinks punks are nihilists is just funny. Also that he thinks being anxious, upset and aimless is part of nihilism. He was like, "well nihilists are angry, and punks are angry, so punks must be nihilists." I'm honestly impressed with how many absurd leaps he was able to make is such a short clip.
i would say that music is probably one of the most important things in this world, regardless of what else is happening at any one-time music is what connects people, from the person next door to the person a world away. the love people have for music, bands, artists and so on is unmeasurable. people will defend and argue till the cows come home to protect what they love.. or to tell what they dislike. without a doubt, i can say that music for me is the most important thing i have to keep me going and ticking by in this mad mad world.
i have no musical skill to be able to play or sing and i certainly cant understand how music is put together, I'm ok with that because not knowing means i can enjoy music for its purpose of being written and played.
Being in the mosh pit at a Ramone's concert is one of my most cherish memories. Broken pinky finger and squashed toes made it even the more memorable. Anarchy just means freedom and that is the crux of all music. The feeling of having the freedom to simply feel without judgment
Music is here to help you remember. How many times do you hear a song and you remember what you were doing. If you go on holiday if you want to remember more listen to music at the sights you go to and you’ll remember them a lot better
As well as being art and completely abstract, music is also entertainment. Yes, it can be absolutely beautiful, it can give meaning to your life. But it's also just so fun to dance to your favourite songs, or sing as loud as possible with a bunch of friends. Music has so much more going on than one particular purpose. In fact, because it is so abstract, I think it's hard to even say music (art in general) has any purpose at all, and exists for its own sake. But it makes the world go round, and basically everyone enjoys some form of art in one way or another. There's more to it than saying it has a function of some sort
Also. You say about children. I find it fascinating how babies are not taught dancing. Just all of a sudden if a baby hears a catchy tune they dance. Music is so human.
I'm still trying to understand why people feel that there not being a point to anything is depressing or negative. To me it's freeing and takes the pressure completely off.
There is nothing to achieve, nothing to qualify for.
An opportunity to belong is an antidote to nihilism as it gives people a feeling of meaning. Loving your channel, your content is excellent. It's breathe of topics and genres is great. Keep up the good work.
Belong to what? A herd?
That's true. I might have found one opinion of Peterson's worthy of my time if he'd just expressed that.
"It's not an antidote to despair - it's an opportunity to belong." But those are exactly the same thing, bud :) And the point is simply to realize where the human mind goes (despair) when you stop noticing the beauty that's all around. Music breaks through our super-useful-but-still-sterile analytical brain and gets us *feeling* again. But we can feel the world (and thus connection to it) at every moment we remember to, music or no, when we recapture our focus and place it again on something sensory. Just try it for some moments, simply focusing on any of your five senses without thinking about them too much, and you get joy. And then with that joy one starts to do more of what is right - more of what must be done - but with joy. You're unblocked and connected to life - which is the ultimate belonging. And the feeling goes away all the time, and returns whenever you remember to refocus.
I appreciate your positive attitude & sharing your thoughts, Justin. If only Peterson could stick to discussions like this - if we might disagree he won't feel like he needs to scream at us. Your response is wonderful. I don't see nihilism as being to common - maybe misplaced attention but not meaninglessness. Peace. Wish you well.
In fairness, he never screams.
When did he scream at you? Sure someone didn't just tell you something, and you believed it without actually hearing it for yourself? Because I've always seen him behave exactly like this
@@drowningin I take it you've not seen the video someone made by taking a video of JP crying about woke libs and put it in a snipit of an old Command and Conquer game.
@@drowningin sounds like he's pissing and moaning at us. ruclips.net/video/6Nvckip7qxk/видео.html
@@caneyebus I take it if you need a heavily edited clip to make a point, its not a very good one
Love your thoughtful response to JP's moving account of his ecstatic musical experience. I don't agree with much of his politics but he does occasionally surprise me with his take on things. It doesn't sound like you disagree with him that much. It may be down to your differing perspectives. You as full time musician and him as a probably occasional gig goer but the transcendental feeling l got from you both.
People who think he's a "divisive figure" haven't really listened to him beyond clips & establishment media bullshit.
Surely he isn't right about everything, but he also doesn't claim to be.
I like him because at least he is a sincere person in a world of nonsense.
One thing to note is that a lot of times he's referring to an extreme, not everyone.
He can be a little cheesy in his earnestness at times, but he's genuinely interested in others & that is refreshing.
Also, agree with you. Idles for example, the bands purpose, if you will, is to confront and overcome the negative or the more complex nihilistic emotions and tendencies we all might have regarding our own existential turmoil and longing for purpose and overcome it through righteous aggression. Joy AS An Act of Resistance!
I can't remember who said it, but I've found that music "is the language of the soul". It's an individuals expression of what dwells within their own spirit.i think it was Andy Latimer of Camel who said that every person has a song within them, and as a musician you play/compose, or whatever it may be, that song over and over and continuously unfold that eternal song that exists within us. It can transcend language, culture, heritage, all of that stuff and be accessible and understood and experienced by anyone. Lol, maybe I'm not communicating it properly, but yes I agree with you, it is so much more than an antidote to nihilism, it is the everlasting expression of oneself. This is why when you listen to an artist you an immediately know who it is, because as individuals we have our own unique way of expressing our own inner being.
At the end of the day, it's all part of this beautiful thing we call life and existence, and on a purely primordial level, it comes from the intrinsic design of existence itself, hence why it transcends all material expression and is accessible to each unique spirit of the world. Cheers!
Why is Jordan Peterson constantly crying. He would be moved to tears by the opening of a tube of Pringles.
He's emotionally attuned to the experience of living, both the positive and negative aspects. He's also been through near-death experiences which have increased his appreciation for the gift of life. I admire him for being emotionally vulnerable and authentic when there are literally thousands of people chomping at the bit to make him suffer and disappear from the public eye.
@@sorazmasterofdoom I was just being silly. I gather he has been through some trauma (he and I both) and I hope he gets the help he needs
The Walter Pater quote, "All art constantly aspires towards the condition of music..." is not about music being the best (although we all know that it is). It means that music is the only artform that is non-representative in it's purest form. Paintings represent things, literature represents things. Music is capable of representing nothing but itself.
I'm becoming addicted to your videos. Absolutely love hearing your perspectives. Thank you so much.
I can’t stop watching your channel since the Forum Hawkins Tribute … ✌️❤️🤘from 🇨🇦
Can we please get an interview between you and Jordan Peterson? I think that would be so inspiring to watch
People seem to fall somewhere between what is labeled (which always falls short) as left or right thinking. One side wants limits (I won't say which labeled side that is) because it seems, they just have to have a box that everything has to be squeezed into. As we are able to see more and more of the universe as technology expands there is no doubt in my mind that they will pop.
Composer, performer, listener. The Tridium. For most, music is a 'spectator sport' (one of the highest, spiritually speaking). For the ones who participate it is something different.
I wish Peterson would preface his ideas with phrases like "this is how I see the world", "the way it occurs to me" or anything like that. Instead of he always states everything as if it was a fullblown fact instead of conjecture.
It is said that some remarkable writer invented a universe which its deus ex machina brought music before any breathing life and to me this is the tuning point...than came the language. Lymph before Blood....if you wanted to put like that...and musicians took both and made their art.
Watch The Day the Earth stood still, the one with Reeves....maybe not the greatest movie, but when he came to the professor's house and resolved basically the theory of everything...he asked previously what it was that noise come from the speakers and the answer is Bach..it says it all...A perfect connection.
A band is a spell, it's members components. The more compatible or proficient or experienced (or whatever enriches a player) the more potent the spell.
I agree with you Justin, but I think he’s specifically referring to people who are in that nihilistic mindset. You aren’t so your appreciation comes from a different place. You can appreciate music, but it might actually save them.
Music is my religion when I play I’m in church speaking to my God. It gives me my perspective and my joy in life. Pythagoras once said man talking to God Is done through Music.
In 200 years.....the songs, the demand and played music will tell who has value in their written music and lyrics. We won't know who's music stays on in humankind. 😊❤😊
Really appreciate your take Justin. I enjoy listening to Dr. Peterson, but he often times will build a complex theory on a foundation that suffers from limited perspective, as you said. His insistence on forcing questions of a spiritual or "soul-ish" nature through a Darwinian/ materialist sort of framework will spiral him into some goofy ad hoc explanations. (Though, he seems to have some belief in the spiritual and is not a materialist).
“Music is probably the one real magic I have encountered in my life. There's not some trick involved with it. It's pure and it's real. It moves, it heals, it communicates and does all these incredible things" .... Tom Petty
Actual thee are plenty of tricks. You just don't recognize them. If you write music, you see it clearer.
Production itself is a trick.
@@morbidmanmusic Production is not magic it is science.
@@morbidmanmusic Stop being so pedantic. You know what he means. Don't piss in the punchbowl.
Morbid Music man or Tom Petty? mmmm... who's opinion should I trust?
He starts with the premise that Nihilists can find meaning in music to explain that music brings meaning to all of our lives. You don't have to be Nihilistic to find that meaning, but even a Nihilist can.
nicely said. Music (really, just beauty in any sensory way) is a thing that makes us grateful to life. But those things are beautiful for no describable reason. Sure, one can say "patterns," but JP's not saying 'which' patterns like he's prescribing some sort of formula - just that there's a way in which beautiful things resonate with our consciousness that gives us the feeling we're missing when we're in despair and nihilistic. And I can't argue with him. I call it 'meaning.'
@@matiasmartinez8809 Absolutely... and in doing so it exposes or creates an identification that destroys the perception of emptiness.
@@matiasmartinez8809 I have been since watching the video. Thanks for your perspective :)
Music is the glue that holds everything together. I'm a loner and sort of a misanthrope but music makes everything more tolerable - it weaves life together. I just picked up my guitars again after years of not playing...I found my lost soul in that guitar case. Really enjoying your channel & views on music and artists etc.
I always believed that music is the closest to magic that we will ever get to. To be able to shift someone’s mental and physical state by merely organising sounds is seriously magical
Whatever we create in this world is magical.
@@Crabbadabba wouldn't go that far
@@goestdummy Not in reality just figuratively.
All art and language and mathemetics is magic.
precisely. All beauty is this way. Doesn't make sense that we should have such an emotional attachment to it - music, stories, paintings, etc - but we do. Beauty is the world giving back, reminding us "oh, this place IS wondrous after all."
I feel Jordan Peterson has been showing up more and more on reaction channels. As someone who enjoys watching your videos I really hope this is the first and last Jordan Peterson video we see from you.
I hope there are more. Why should Justin have to pander to the sensibilities of liberal snowflakes who are triggered by the mere mention of someone who happens to disagree with you?
@@MrRhurbarb is it pandering to the left to simply not platform bigots? Aside from everything, JPs just an idiot with baby brain takes
@@MrRhurbarb because he doesn't say anything. He just makes assertions and whines when people don't adhere to his demands because he's the ultimate snowflake.
I love how Jordan Peterson’s fanbase is so toxic that you have to say you’re sorry before criticizing him, otherwise they’ll come after you
The less one agrees with Jordan Peterson the better
Petersons arguments always seem to rest pretty heavily on confidently made assertions which aren't supported, tested or challenged. For example, his statement that "Non-patterned music is noise" is not the immutable fact he presents it as. Simiilarly, his assertion that "the world's made of patterns" is something you could argue strongly against. Sure, there are lots of patterns but there's lots of randomness too, this doesn't support his 'point' though so it's just discarded. As Justin points out he makes a bunch of sweeping generalisations about Ramones fans and "punk rockers" which seem to be there mainly to support the rest of his argument, and suggest that maybe he doesn't actually know that many 'punks'.
This is why he likes appearing on Joe Rogan stuff where he's just allowed to twitter on at length unchallenged while Joe and the audience take another bong hit and congratulate themselves on how deep they are. The only time I've seen Peterson actually challenged he came off as a lot less smart and a lot less convincing.
The crying bit was just weird.
Sorry, hadn't watched the whole clip when I was moved to comment and Justin covers some of these points.
In my view music is a fundamental part of the human condition and humans have been making 'music' in some form or other since we were living in caves. Different people seek different things in music whether it's the elegance and sophistication of a symphony, or the thumbing bassline in a nightclub which requires no thought but just makes you want to move. Sometimes the same person will seek different things at different times. And many people will hum or whistle to themselves as they do other things; isn't that a form of music making?
It seems to me that was Peterson was trying to articulate with his "best guitar player in the world" story is the feeling of appreciating live music as a group experience, the thing that makes live music so fantastic. I can see how that would make one feel that music is the antidote to nihilism, it's kind of how it makes us all feel. But I agree with Justin, and most other commenters on here it seems, that it's much, much more than that.
Peterson far more brilliant than you give him credit for. The times he has gotten challenged like with Cathy Newman or the lengthy GQ interview, he basically destroys them.
@@kickstar1 you are not addressing the points made, simply asserting your admiration for JP without supporting arguments. This is perfectly valid and please do not consider yourself "cancelled", but it is *not* persuasive.
@@kickstar1 No he doesn’t. He’s the idiot’s idea of a smart person. Complete embarrassment to the discipline of philosophy.
As a working musician for 20+ years now, I can tell you that music has kept me off the streets and in the bars where I belong.
As a music lover it connects with me on a deeply emotional level. I don't need to know anything about it, it either connects or it doesn't.
Great profile pic!
soooo, the opinion of Justin who is actually proficient in music versus someone who knows dick squat about music ... ?
@@whatsup9260 Sooo what the fuck are you talking about?
Music belongs to everyone, the relative proficiency of Justin gives him no more or less right to an opinion than anyone else
@@nektekket852 liking it or not is fine, as you say cannot argue taste.
i think my comment was for someone who argued a technical comment about a skill or else but the comment was deleted
I appreciate how open minded you are about things. It's something that became really clear to me when you did the NFT video. You don't just talk the talk, you're one of those rare cats that really seems to walk the walk. I endeavour to be more like you and to stop and think about the assumptions I hold about people and ideas and to just slow down and think a bit before I react. I want to thoughtfully consider the information I'm being presented. I usually fail more often than I succeed but I'm trying to make that change. I appreciate you and this channel. Cheers sir.
I was gonna say something similar but you pretty much said what I was gonna say.
Such a Jordan Peterson fan comment lol
@@michaelshannon9169 I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Did you see the NFT video? I did. You realize that when this video went up, it had a different title and it changed to what it currently is? I didn't say which side I come down on but the massive amount projection you're doing here makes your position clear. Tell me though, what's wrong with being open minded? Do you find it threatening when people don't adhere to strict dogma? That's ok though Michael, just keep feeling good about yourself for insulting people on the internet you know nothing about. If it makes you happy, fill your boots friend.
@O.T. Oss, just so you know, the video of the title changed because it always changes.....it's a clickbait tactic people use to get more views. This channel does it on every video, it annoys me (and other people).
@@tigs6639 ah, very clever. Is title changing "a thing" now then? I've noticed thumbnail upgrades, but often big channels will go back & do it for branding purposes.
The guitarist is Luke Mcqueary. I saw a year ago when I went to pick up my puppy and this kid was unbelievable. He was at Robert's Western Bar where Johnny Hiland used to play. Johnny is a brilliant country player but Luke is like Hendrix meets Brent Mason. I totally understand what Jordan was experiencing but I experienced myself. Def check out Luke Mcqueary if you get a chance.
There are a billion great guitarists. A tiny fraction make great music.
Sorry Justin I didn't mean to take this out on you. Jordan Peterson is such a verbal snake oil salesman, imho.
I found this discussion so valuable. It's interesting to see music being thought of by essentially 2 different types of schools really. For Dr Peterson's obvious love for music, he is still a layman in the sense that he's not a musician, doesn't necessarily have the knowledge that Justin has from years of experience as a working musician. But the good Dr's approach to philosophy, music's profound impact on people I think is true. The core of this whole conversation is that music has an undeniably massive impact on people and individuals. I think there's something profound just in that. Whether you're a rockstar or an academic, music can and does bring people together
nicely said
@@cecilcharlesofficial thank you sir
@@rosshardinguk From what I've understood he's done his fair share of playing, although not on a professional level. He's talked about himself playing Beethoven sonatas which takes som practice and gives you quite a deep understanding of music I would argue. Although probably not as deep as a professional musician once again.
@@jonatanbefrits5609 I did not know Dr P had musical knowledge. But in my own opinion just listening to Beethoven would give one insight into the massive depths and power of music. Listen to the Piano Sonata No.14 and you shall be moved.
I've said it so many times, I think music is the greatest thing as humans we will ever make. It's the purest thing we have ever done, and ever will do.
The wheel and controlled fire are pretty awesome too!
@@brushstroke3733 math, geometry, medicine, solid state electronics, optics, so many things! oh and dogs, i think they rank pretty high too
@@bjorndunderbeck I'm not so sure about all of those. Animals eat medicinal plants, so I'm not sure humans can take credit for medicine. Surgery is a pretty neat trick though, and resetting bones, etc. And perhaps at one time, domesticated dogs were a wonderful "creation" of humanity, but I think unfortunately humanity kept domesticating them until we jumped the proverbial shark. Dog breeds are warped and not to the advantage of the dogs themselves. I just saw a couple of happy weiner dogs that could barely move in their elongated bodies with short legs. And how often do I see tiny dogs like chihuahuas that seem perpetually frightened and nervous? Is that a wonderous creation, or a monstrosity? What about French Bulldogs that can barely breathe because of their compressed snout shape? What about labradors and retreivers and shepards with genetically bad hips? I invite you to reconsider what a marvel modern dogs are and see that perhaps we humans are screwing them up in usual arrogance that we do things better than nature does.
@@brushstroke3733 yeah i get you, I forgot about all those breeds, suddenly the whole thing looks like a freakshow!
I surrender to this statement. I love all the arts… But sometimes when I’m listening to a piece of music I’ll say that’s worth 100 paintings or that’s an entire building. And I know it’s not right to compare. I mean the funny thing is you can look at a paint or painting and think what isn’t that kind of mechanical? Although at the same time you can be energetic and lyrical and beautiful. And in order to make music you have to do some thing and master something that is intellectual and emotional and mathematical and mechanical. But when you experience and it’s pure poetry. But I think you can say that about a great tennis or basketball player, as well. It’s all part of the experience of living inside the material world bounded by the rules of physics. The music itself is governed by physics. The experience can be so divine.
Ain’t it great to be alive?
Im autistic and i dont know what i would do without music
I'm music and I don't know what I'd do without autism
I've never ever met a nihilistic punk, quite the opposite. Nihilism, in my experience, is a synthom suffered by people in a deep depression or a bi polar low. Mr. Peterson has a long time fascination with nihilism, good vs evil, etc and as a psychologist is probably over exposed to such maladies in his practice. The rest of the world is way more optimistic and joyous 😊
nihilism is often misinterpreted and im somewhat surprised Peterson plays into it, nihilism is the creation of your own meaning in a world that doesn't give meaning to you. it assumes that religions are fallacious, capitalism and consumerism are at the very least meaningless if not outright bad, and that the various elements of society are continuing to drain meaning from everyday life, basically how humans in the Stone Age had meaning in there life as simple as getting enough food for the week--without that direct need, or with it addressed, daily life boils down into a grind where you are never really going up, nor down. nihilism is the recognition (or agreement with) the idea that the world is meaningless and therefore we as humans need to make our own meaning. actual nihilism is essentially the philosophy of most people who don't subscribe to a religious power, its not a reflection of work ethic or morality or anything like that. theres a lot more to it, like epistemological nihilism (the idea that nothing can be known or communicated _for sure)_ , or cosmic nihilism (the idea that the universe is unintelligible) and its genuinely some of the most interesting stuff to think about and either apply or learn to steer away from. Jordan Peterson, when referring to nihilism, tends to actually refer to either absurdism or philosophical pessimism, both of which share the ideas of the meaningless of life but both are also more "life is pain and the only rewards are death and seeing the absurdity of those around us"
Exactly. As a Christian, Peterson requires a straw man to knock down. In this case, nihilism is that straw man.
Not sure what time period you are familiar with but in the 80s California punk scene there were plenty of nihilists. Not that their weren't idealistic punks but that was not the norm. I was there and that was certainly what I observed. The UK punk scene or the East Coast punk scene (the Ramones) may have been different.
Peterson is simply saying that music is so inherently meaningful that it can even make a nihilist tap their toes.
Basically, music disproves nihilism. The world is inherently meaningful.
boom :)
Peterson is wrong to call 'punks' or the people at that concert nihilists. His premise for his stupid point is wrong.
@@paulgill2042 How so? It seems pretty fitting for the time, place, culture, and genre. They definitely acted like nihilists, even if they didn't identify as such.
Very articulate, Justin. Nice.
When I hear Peterson talk about music I interpret it as something that’s going on with your core philosophies and principles, the ones you may not even be aware of if you are roaming through life as a reactionary.
Music and it’s patterns being an allegory to life itself can affect people on the surface and deep below where your conscious doesn’t go.
Sometimes if the path you are on moves with the chosen patterns in a song it can connect and remind your soul that there is meaning to life. You may not notice when it happens, but when it does, and for those moments, your self meets what once was.
Being young punk rocker in the early 80's, I was anything but nihilistic. What ever I was expressing through my music or in the mosh pit was directed at those that didn't care about the environment and planet, and our future on it. It wasn't that the music was saving those of us in the mosh pit from our nihilism. It was more like the chaos we were creating was a call to wake up and start dreaming of a better world. In essence it was a call to someone like JP to step into the pit with us instead of over analyzing life and be alive. But to each his own.
Well put!..and I was a punk too probably around 1977..and we just thought of ourselves as anti establishment and celebrating the outsiders...
I think the question is, what would you have without the music?
Well said. An old school punk myself to me it's the exact opposite of nihilism. It's very idealistic. Maybe it can be simplistic, but that's not nihilism.
Bunch of middle class mummy’s boys
Punk was over by 77 when the saints said it was. If you were a punk in 1978 you were a wanker being sold an image by nme
The beauty of music is that it’s open to interpretation and that the meaning of it is different for each individual.
The problem with Jordan Peterson is that he is a man with an opinion, who has been elevated to some kind of all knowing status, because he has a platform and speaks with authority. Educated, travelled, experienced, sure, but ultimately it's just his opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. Much of what he says is deeply questionable, because the world as he sees it, is not the way a lot of other people see it. It is just his experience. I think it is very dangerous to give people with such strong, authoritive outspoken "opinions", such an elevated platform. Hey, a lot of what he says is also good stuff as well. But for him to be seen as some kind of ultimate wise man is shaky ground.
This. I agree 100%
Your music has always been good to listen to, but actually you're an interesting guy to hear speak as well. You make lots of great points and cool that you're making videos so we can hear more than just music but your thoughts and opinions on things too
As a life long musician and someone who finds Jordan Peterson completely frivolous and ridiculous, I truly appreciate your measured take. I aspire to your calm.
What do you think makes him “frivolous and ridiculous”?
@@TheAlibabatree
Being a whiny soiboi that cries about the dumbest things and can't form a coherent argument. Have you read 'Maps of Meaning'? It's utter 🐴💩. 12 Rules is a bad joke on kids that need better parents.
@@TheAlibabatree i think the main criticism comes from his label as a "thinker" when his most famous ideas as seen in "12 rules of life" are somewhat amateurish and as novel in their discourse as any other self help book that has come out in the last 20 years.
@@tcrijwanachoudhury With all due respect, i dont think you know much about him. That book is just that. A book. And it happens to have improved millions of struggling peoples lives, so i truly don’t understand the arrogant elitism towards something that is beneficial to humanity.
But, if you want to have an intellectual sparing match, i would suggest you dig a bit deeper than just his one self help book aimed at, and beneficial to a specific demographic.
@@TheAlibabatree Jordan Peterson is a nonsensical pseudo intellectual at best and dangerous influence at worst. He offers so little of value in his word salads its hard to critique because its so rambling and self-absorbed. By the time he is crying in this video my eyes have rolled so far back into my head I may have choked on them just a bit. If its improved your life, more power to you I guess, but personally I find his work more detrimental than beneficial to modern society.
Justin Hawkins riiiiiiides again. 🥰🤘🎸🔥
Agaaaaaain
@@nathanjones7926 Damn, you beat me to it lol :D
@@crimsonkate8241 next time!
Music is emotion made real, tangible .. it can make you cry like a baby or bonce like a ball. Its the only thing in life that has really really ever ment anything to me. It touches my soul while healing my heart and when its done right it can be like a life shot to your very essence.
Yes, music and laughter are the two most important things in the world.... well maybe love as well.
I mean, yes... but in reality it is simply a particular pattern of preassure waves that generates brain activity
I appreciate your perspective here and agree with almost everything you've said. I do, however, think you and JP were saying two different things. Music very well could be an antidote to nihilism, especially from the perspective of a clinical psychologist. Many people can receive an antidote for some sort of affliction without ever experiencing the symptoms.
I don't think he's saying music, or even punk music specifically, is only for people who struggle with nihilistic dread. He's saying it's something that can be used to help people in that situation. And that probably his personal experience.
He's not saying that's all there is to it. He's saying that's one thing that makes music so valuable and wonderful. It's something that brings comfort to people and brings meaning and purpose.
When I'm feeling down on my luck I listen to certain songs. I'll go for a run and find motivation from those stories told and the melodies. So for me it's not necessarily an antidote to nihilism, but rather a motivational force to keep me strong when I'm struggling.
I think Peterson is very much speaking about his own struggle with nihilism and in this video he's trying to inspect why music brings him such comfort and meaning. Perhaps a little bit of projection on the rest of the world, but I definitely see where he's coming from. I think we can all remember a time where we felt like giving up on life and we heard music that made us feel better.
As a music lover and musician, music is a religious experience when done properly. When playing music and it’s going great, it’s better than sex.
2:31 Nihilism includes the idea “that nothing can be known or communicated”.
I think that’s where the magic of music works as an antidote: when the track comes on or one starts a jam with the band, suddenly for no known/knowable reason one feels connected - a feeling that the nihilistic mind generally does not feel and, however fleeting, takes hold of the entirety of one’s being for a moment in time.
Perhaps one could say that connection is the antidote to nihilism and music is all about connection.
I have developed a rather nihilistic outlook on life but I believe it is only a feeling, sometimes I’ve got to stop myself believing that it’s here to stay, it’s only a feeling, anyway 🤙🏼
Well said!
This is exactly right! You nailed it. Connection and empathy and natural solidarity with one another, the wonder we feel when we catch a glimpse of the same plane we are all on, is indeed the antidote to nihilism. It reminds us why we should give a shit. We are connected, we are not alone, when we give freely and generously of ourselves we find meaning. Music is one of the most powerful and direct lines to this feeling. Jordan Peterson is definitely reductive in his analysis of "what music is", but the point about it being a portal to a place of genuine meaning and connection - something that reminds us of how beautiful and awesome humanity is - is right on the money (and something I would extend to all forms of art).
I think that last sentence has great potential to be a cool line in a song, i might have to use that my friend
Music is salvation.... its how I feel feelings... emotions... am that person who's reality is that there's no point .... just a repetitive existence until the inevitable.... were the only input I can have my self is when it ends.. music at least takes me out the misery and energises my thoughts my body ... can give me a euphoria of joy and peace..
Music is beautiful, it triggers ignites awakens calms sooths releases ...
I believe it to be a medication for my mind..
That would be a great song title, "Nihilism is Only a Feeling". Lol
To sum up his point of, "music is the antidote to nihilism"; simply he is saying that in music-there is meaning.
Even a punk who indulges in nihilism will go to a punk show and dance in a mosh pit (that is meaning) and if you take that idea, that even a nihilistic person can find meaning in a song; clearly, music must have real meaning.
So then you compare that to finding meaning in your own life.
Think of it as an analogy-in music, if you take a song that typically the artist has something important to say, that you as the listener can relate to, and you add that with harmony and structure; you can find meaning. Without having something to relate to, without the structure, without the harmony; it now just becomes noise (noise=nihilism.) It isn't a meaningful song until you add the ingredients of something important to relate to, harmony, and structure-only THEN will you find meaning; only THEN will you want to dance.
So essentially he is using that formula and applying it to life-if you take something important that relates to you, and you add that with structure and harmony; then you can find REAL meaning in your life; and then you can dance to life-almost as if you're dancing to a song that is real meaningful to you.
Well said. Nail on the head.
Word. 🖤
So he said nothing of worth, like always. Got it.
It is difficult to listen to Peterson’s embarrassing ramblings. It sounds like he’s on benzos in the video.
“Music is probably the one real magic I have encountered in my life. There's not some trick involved with it. It's pure and it's real. It moves, it heals, it communicates and does all these incredible things.” Tom Petty
Music has kept me alive all my life. It is a power to behold and I have been privileged that it has touched my soul.
For me, music enhances life and often reflects it. Music and lyrics can be a form of distilled empathy as well as mad fucking fun, it can make your heart race or make you cry with sadness or joy. Saw The Damned many times as a kid, it was never nihilistic but always celebratory, in the moment, utter fucking life affirming joy. A powerful experience for a 16 year old kid. Music has had a powerful influence on my life.
AHA!
@@Robdobalina Wibble!
Peterson's early comment is a point he makes in order to suggest that life is meaningless without believing in a "god" and that this god has a "purpose" for you, and if you don't believe in god and don't believe you were given a purpose, then you have no purpose and you become angry, full of hate, disappointment, negativity, etc.
He only says that because he's never really given Nihilism much thought.
As an Atheist AND Nihilist, I accept that there is no god, that I was NOT given a purpose by a god, and that there is no inherent purpose for anyone or anything. This idea gives Peterson and other Christians a wave of fear, because they believe in a god, believe this god gave them purpose, and they can't imagine perceiving life any other way.
For me, it does not lead to anger, sadness, depression, or the "why bother?" attitude that he promotes.
Peterson's take on Nihilism is Reducto Ad Absurdum. It's the view of an inexperienced child.
Some days, I'll take an acoustic guitar and go the graveyard, where I will find the grave of yet another person I never met and never knew. I'll read aloud their name, date born, date died, and start playing. As I'm playing, I wonder about their loves, dislikes, fears, hopes, dreams, family, friends, problems, illnesses, and so on. I started doing this in 2003, at my father's grave. Barely knew the guy.
Through all of this, I learned that things like what matters in life or what is important is generally a very personal thing based on life experience. Whether bad or good, or anywhere in between, these things share a common thread in that they reside within a space of meaning that is beyond private in most cases.
I got a raise in 2015. It was a VERY big deal to me. Who cared? Nobody, beyond my gf and people close to me, who offered congratulations. I got downsized the following year and, again, nobody cared and it made NO difference to anyone in the world. And again, it mattered ONLY to me and people who were truly close to me. As I write this in late 2022, I can confirm that neither of these events holds any importance, value, or significance.
Today, I have to spend some time brushing my Maine Coon. It's for his personal health, as well as his appearances. Does anyone care? Does it have any meaning beyond that which is hyper-personal and in-the-moment? Of course not.
Generally, it's meaningless. Specifically, it is not.
Peterson is a gormless person's idea of what a smart person might be all about. He started his career on a lie about C-16, declaring that people would be arrested for using the wrong pronouns. Anyone who builds a career based on a lie gets NO respect from me.
Some nice thoughts, but you're not being fare towards mr Peterson. In fact you are putting words in his mouth, which is an unpolite thing to do. 1st of all mr J.P. never says anything about music being an _antidote_ - those are your words! J.P. just uses music as an example of the way of the world, how it expresses itself.
2ndly: just because he mentions 2 gigs he’s been to, does not mean that he has not seen others. Those are just examples, it would be boring for the listener, if he’d start listing more examples. And so on, the same attitude all along the video, as if you needed to correct anything mr JP says!
And your own example about people singing to their hairdriers proves nothing - yes, it can be about music, but it can also be about just dreaming, not dreaming just of music, but of being admired etc. In a same manner as one can dream about a perfect girl or boyfriend.
So, some nice thoughts, but overall quite an arrogant response.
Excellent topic, music is escapism to me. I’ve played drums most of my life and can attest how music can really move people in one direction or another. For some it’s just enough to tap their foot while others are completely immersed. Maybe Jordan Peterson should’ve played guitar? 🎸 It’s rewarding to be a musician when there’s people moving and reacting to your music.
Music is the universal language of humanity. ❤️
There’s a fantastic simple quote from Andy Warhol….I think it goes “An experience has no atmosphere until it’s a memory”. Music has the innate ability to move you through time and gives an atmosphere to so many things you experience as a human being.
Well said .
Peterson is great at spinning out the impression of mastery over any subject , with only fleeting experience or engagement . I think most of what he pontificates in interviews is quite òn the fly '. Hes kind of the bogans `thinking man '.
3:10 If you turn the sound off there's no way you wouldn't think he was doing a magic trick.
All of these comments are by people who hasn’t even watched the entire video. 😂😁🤣
True. I can’t bring myself to watch anything with Peterson in because he makes me want to crap and puke at the same time.
@@TheKingOfBeans
Oh, that's what that is in your profile pic. 🤪
What JBP is saying comes off super contrived. It feels like he's contorting ideas to make them fit within his framework, even when it doesn't make sense. Like everything in the universe is one of two things.
I don't think he's saying that's ALL music is... I think he's arguing that music makes us feel deep emotions, which are antithetical to nihilism. If you look into existentialism they argue that nihilism is sort of the base level philosophy that we have to overcome as humans- which is what I think he's getting at.
Many Punks have nihilistic views (whether they're fully aware of it or not) and he was arguing that their deep appreciation of the music is somewhat contrary to those views. (But he did sound slightly dismissive in this clip).
Obviously Peterson comes across as a bit of a shapiro-esque music noob in his little bow tie and all that but he likes lots of interesting bands (for e.g. Acade Fire, Tom Waits and Beach House) and and even plays music himself.
But thanks for the video! I love discussing music and philosophy and am a big fan of the channel.
I would argue that you just agreed with what he said. "It's not amenable to rational criticism" is his way of stating that music is way more than can be analyzed. He mentions some common attributes that he has noted but is admitting that music itself defies rational definition.
It's amazing how many people missed out on that simple sentence.
@@independenceltd. .. It's amazing how much psycho-waffle Peterson spews on any given topic... Mind you, when he tries to analyse society and politics he makes about 1 good point for every 10 lousy, half-arsed, straw man arguments he makes.. If he'd stuck to insulting Woke pronoun zealots of the Transhumanist Movement on steroids I'd have kept my respect for him, but's he talks so much waffle and rubbish I now almost always find him annoying.. This talk is no exception.
@@PrivateSi "It's not amenable to rational criticism" seems pretty benign. But maybe it's cuz I'm not looking to be offended.
@@independenceltd. .. This Peterson talk is 90% intellectual psycho-waffle that didn't explore the Psychology of Music well at all... Peterson is overrated, trumped up and often confused.. Did a good job on the Cancel Culture and Marxist Gender Confusion movements but the rest of his talks are not worth a listen IMO, and I've listened to quite a lot on a (far too) broad range of subjects since he became a PRO SPEAKER on the media circuit, promoting his Conservative self-disciplining manuals and now talking about all sorts of political issues he knows far too little about.. He's so Conservative his extreme anal retention followed by bouts of verbal diarrhoea is cause by his own head repeatedly disappearing up his own drug-addled arse...
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I could slag him off all day as I'm a personal responsibility promoter via Constitutional Direct Democracy and Peterson is vehemently against Direct Democracy and pro Constitutionalism.. D.D. has become a bit of an obsessive pet hate for him... We need need a Libertarian Constitution that requires overwhelming absolute majorities to change or temporarily suspend laws and rights as trusting political parties and Dear Leaders is extremely personally irresponsible. The man's a bit of a lame brain, and a joke... Too much fine wine and too many highly addictive hard drugs + old age.
It's not amenable to rational criticism, unless you're JP and are paid to pontificate. Wish he'd stick to the field he's actually trained in.
I’m sure these comments will be fruitful conversations.
Is that what you come here for? 😂
Im here to see everyone going for politics instead of what Justin and Peterson said
@@mrbungle3310 ok
I think his reaction to the Nashville bar gig is probably because he hasn't experienced it before. Like with most things in life, the first time gives you such a massive buzz, but if you continue to do it all the time, that buzz fades and you have to go more extreme to get the same buzz. It's why so many of us burn out on out passions. It's also why people who look up to musical or sporting heroes don't understand why they may be unhappy even though they seem like they are on top of the world. The journey of getting there is often torturous.
Peterson is just trying desperately to rationalize his religious beliefs through whatever means he feels he can with, well, normal people.
"not everybody can, or should" is a rare bit of cynicism from your normally positive attitude. Maybe you meant not everybody can do it well, and not everyone 'should' in that they don't have to, but music is for everyone. Not everyone can or should do it as a career, but everyone can do music.
Yes you're right! That's the beauty of music. Any cynicism you detect is more towards the music industry.
I agree with you, even if someone's terrible at music they should still do it.
Music has made me cry. Helped me through dark times, almost spiritual connection with the pain of an d fragility of an artist ( Cash with Rick Rubin helped me sit in a car in the dark and cry but turned those dark thoughts of self pity to positivity).
Music is an emotional release. Allows connection with strangers. A safe zone usually at a gig. An area to be expressive such as a mosh pit, to connect you with a moment in time. To flash back to specific scenarios in your childhood. It’s quite a powerfully manipulative medium at a specific time in your life.
As always, interesting blog.
To properly grasp Peterson's meaning on this topic, one would need to understand a more about his general worldview. As a psychologist it isn't surprising that, given the proclivity of humans to seek out patterns, someone mired in the science of psychology would view a given human endeavor as pattern making.
I doubt Peterson would argue it is in any way a complete description of what music is, but rather it's relationship to a particular psychological state, in this instance, nihilism.
In a way it's very cool that Mr. Peterson has taken apart the 'meaning' of music as he did, but in a way it's a waste of breath. When I pick up my guitar and play, or listen to something I like, the last thing I'm concerned about is what connection the music has to the meaning of existence.
Mr Hawkins, in listening to both of you, I believe that what both of you are saying is that if not for music, Nihilism would run rampent.
Music is the cure for it, not the cause.
"run rampant" not "run ramped".
Unfortunately Jordan Peterson is crying at the brilliance of his own insight, he literally does it on every topic he talks about, regardless of whether or not he actually has any insight.
Right? The guy basically cries whenever he sniffs his own farts.
Dancing in front of the mirror is an expression of hope which nihilists do not have. Thanks for your insights!
Do you know any nihilists? I know a number of punk music fans, but not a single nihilist. Peterson is talking s***. Nothing new.
Jordan was on those good anxiety pills in this one, I mean he was HOPPED up! Lmao. But I do agree with his perspective on it aside from the fact he talks about everything like it’s coming from his book.
Very interesting - I think Peterson tries to understand how music effects you, but it is not easy to figure this out. the minute you start to rationalize it - it eludes you. I really like him just for making me think of things differently - of course he does not know everything...
Don't take much of what this man says seriously, Justin; he's an expert in one field who thinks that renders him an expert in any field he likes. And so he's extremely easy to debunk on almost anything he says.
Just like you did with your usual calm eloquence. He also gets moved to tears a lot recently.
PS Klaus from the Umbrella academy looks just like you, particularly in your most recent videos with your shorter hair 😂☔
He's essentially talking about the beauty of art and it's ability to lift us out of nihilism, depression or just general sadness into pure 'awe'. What's not to understand?
Only Justin can give an awesome explanation about music and feeling and then just say: "Or not, I don't know" 😂
I personally find JP a little "fluffy" and too soft for me,but I think I kind of agree with him here simply bc Heavy Metal and Hard Rock music saved my life many times as a "nihilistic" teenager.If I hadn't had those sounds,my aimlessness would just dragged on into suicide.For all the deceased musicians I love,I feel like I am trying to live some of my life for them,that they may regain whatever joy that felt was lost through watching the lives of the fans who loved them soooo much.Peter Steele,Chris Cornell,Shannon Hoon,and Layne Staley just to name a few....Oh,and yes,almost all early punk bands were nihilists....Agnostic Front,The Misfits,The Exploited,The Sex Pistols just to name a few...Bad Brains are/were different....I mostly stopped writing and playing music to pursue other interests (just wrote and self published my 1st book),but I still listen to music JUST to fill that feeling of emptiness that still arises now and then.I'll call it temporary nihilism bc it never lasts any more,likely mostly thanks to well,music,lol.
I miss being a kid and never analyzing anything or having to conclude anything.
Its definitely an antidote to my lifetime of despair. Music is the Healer 🔥
My sense is both JBP and Justin are right on this. Music may be meaningful because it reflects back to us or maybe opens us up to the patternicity of the world. Justin takes this further, by pointing out that we as individuals find meaning and an opportunity to express ourselves when belonging to a group, tribe, band or whatever.
The music that calls to us on the level of individual opens us up to a deeper patterned reality. It also provides us the opportunity to express our unique selves through the higher mode, the group.