Not mentioned in your video, but for attack-defend maps, you can resupply as engineer in the forward spawns by edging yourself at the door and changing load-outs, via the load-out binds, as a way to resupply for buildings.
The Mountain Lab spawn also has a nice bit of environmental storytelling included, with the airboat apparently being the means by which the BLU team arrived.
A few have story telling like that. Hoodoo has an Ambulance and cart from a tunnel. Pier has a boat below the spawn with a bomb being lifted up to the higher floor. Steel has a whole train just outside spawn as if Blue rode in on it. There's a lot of "Blue arrived to attack Red" story telling."
Nice video. You can't go back into the spawns for 5CP by design. It has an effect on the pace of the game. One interesting exception to this rule is the forward spawn on badlands which DOES let you back in and has a resupply cabinet, but it's off to the side in what is considered the flank. You could argue that it entices certain traffic patterns across the map.
Great, informative, entertaining video as always :D I think it'd be interesting if you made a video on the original six maps that TF2 launched with (2Fort, Dustbowl, Granary, Well, Gravel Pit, Hydro), how they've changed, and what we can learn from analyzing TF2's map design and art style back in 2007 compared to now.
Funnily enough, in Bloodwater, Badwater's Halloween counterpart, the second spawn exit for BLU is actually present, and as expected, it can help a lot in many ways, but it still feels extremely weird to have it, at least for me
One way doors are pretty important for most 5cp maps. Preventing people from going back in allows for easier flank picks on the offensive team to give defenders opportunities for creating openings. Plus, you can't duck into it to escape when the defense pushes out. Offense already has a pretty considerable respawn time advantage, so they'll win a grind war all other things being equal. The idea of the one way doors is more or less one of several mechanisms to make blue lose a lot of ground when they fail to cap last. The offensive team is AGGRESSIVELY punished for flubbing a push onto last, and that is by design. With stock settings a successful hold can almost immediately be flipped into retaking mid with uber advantage. Pushing them back to the previous point is far too far to travel, especially on the bigger maps, and that would lead to very drawn out stalemates.
If I had to guess, I think most of the asymmetrical capture point maps have bland designs in Red and quirky designs in Blu because Blu has to wait for Red to set-up for a minute, so there's some interesting bits and bobs to look at while waiting. Most likely originally the spawn rooms were bland for both teams. Also serves a purpose of getting Red out of spawn, since it's kinda visually boring in there. Now for the situations where it's the opposite, or the spawn rooms are decorated very differently on otherwise symmetrical maps, I have no idea.
My favorite spawn rooms are the ones in Team Fortress Classic, because they have security turrets. You never know what kind of exploits people will come up with.
while i do agree that aesthetically egypts spawn rooms are great they’re some of my least favourite spawns because of how unnecessarily large they are on some stages it’s like a ten+ second walk out of spawn and it always really annoys me
Good video though I disagree on your opinion with Kong King's spawn room; it seems it's a small empty storage place repurposed as a locker room spawn, which also considering it's a different country, fits well into the Chinatown alleyway brawl that Kong King is supposed to be
"I know that the one-way nature of this door is intentional [...] but I don't understand why" *They are not resup rooms. It's just a spawn.* The reason they exist is to skip the walk across the map and sustain pressure on the team defending last. If you could go back in to resupply or switch classes that would be a reward for capping mid and second, instead of something to make the mode fast and fun. It's 5cp, you just don't play this mode like that, it's not viaduct You _can_ "hold" the door from inside for someone and it happens in sixes on rare occasions, but that's balanced out by the fact you need to dedicate a respawning player to the task.
Ok, and then you talk about leaving the spawn as it is and using teleporters? Like, that's just not how the game is designed, you're supposed to be back in the fight after a few seconds from respawning. You kinda allude to the point that this change would increase the viability on engi on 5cp (aside from his use on last and full battle-engi otherwise) but it's viability by necessity, not because the class is suddenly more fun. Like, if you need a teleporter to play the game, that leads to whining about nobody playing engi, not players choosing engi because the map is fun to play for him
9:15 i think there are potentially 2 reasons as to why. 1) The spawncamping on Badwater last is a rare issue. RED have to cross like half the map to get there and if they indeed do - its because they are pubstomping the shit out of the BLU and another spawn door is not gonna help you. 2) That sideways door would be a direct upgrade to the one we have now - because of that weird tunnel area that forces players to go in the "wrong" direction for a second, while the sideways door would've been a straight forward path to the objective that literally every class that can't explosive jump would be taking 9 cases out of 10 instead of wasting time on the Funnel of Wrong Directions. In other words - that sideway door would become the new main door, which would leave the original door without a job, where it would only ever be used to counter spawncamping. But again: if it ever came down to that - you honestly have bigger issues on your hands.
I have always been fascinated by spawn rooms in TF2 so this video is right up my alley. I am always baffled when otherwise great maps just don't put that extra little bit of effort to make visually interesting spawns.
Im pretty sure the spawns on 5cp maps are 1 way so people wouldnt be able to run back to the resupply cabinet in the middle of a fight, as most spawn rooms are usually right next to a point. Sure its unable to be capped but players could still have encounters with enemies there. I still hate that they're 1 way though and dont like it
9:51 Thie is incorrect. BLU's Second spawn area only had 1 path (which leads to the 2 gates that opens to the outside) to the battlements back then, and near RED's Exit area to BLU'S Final spawn area there was no stairs leading up to the first bridged area.
as an engi main the lack of supply cabs and the fact that my tele is kinda useless because the spawn changes so much is so frustrating that i never play them or atleast not as engi. I just dont get it it just kinda kills an entire class and i just cant see the benefit of it. I even find it hurts balancing because would the spawn not move the team that gets pushed back would have an easier time going to the next point and that would really help against the many matches where one team just get steamrolled. But no like ruberbanding in racing games the winning team is allways getting closer to the enemy main point. so much for my little rant thanks for listening xD
Here's an idea. Would be cool to have out-of-reach invulnerable lvl 3 sentries guarding the entrance of a team. That would eliminate spawn camping entirely. You could use clip brushes to prevent spies from zapping them by having them out of their zapping range. And even if you can't make the sentries invulnerable, you could make them re-spawn instantly as soon as they're destroyed. You'd only be able to distract them with Scout's bonk and push with an uber, but you wouldn't be able to do much with them against two lvl 3 invulnerable sentries. My only concern is the ammunition going empty in those lvl 3 sentries. Maybe vscripting would have to do something about it.
Look man, I get making the spawn room look as fancy as possible, but jesus christ why must the resupply locker be an entire continent away from the exist/entrance
literally what I was thinking as I was watching. All these spawns that are more detailed are the ones you would spend the most time in. When making a map, you gotta focus your effort on the stuff that matters the most, and when a player will spend at most a second or 2 per life in a spawn room, it makes sense not to put as much effort into it and to focus that effort elsewhere.
"omg people are out of ideas" My guy, this is breaking down the core design philosophy of the game. If you can't appreciate that, I'm guessing those 8 minute 1 second clip dumps called "CASUAL IS WACKY" would be more your speed
@@Great_Bluenigh on 2 decades of the same memes and countless deaths to random crits have rotted the brain such that TF2 players are incapable of high level critical thinking. I reckon you probably get a lot of comments like this on your more analytical videos. Love your work as well.
I think the bland spawnrooms is an intentional choice to push players out into the battlefield. Most of the nice looking spawns are the ones that you have to wait in during setup.
That's probably a fair assessment, but one can't help but feel in some cases that the forward spawn rooms are kinda squeezed in as an afterthought, since it's an easy mistake as a map maker to think that spawn rooms aren't as big as they really are.
I think DeGroot Keep's spawn rooms are also really good, especially Blu's. Lots of nice storytelling in that one, plus it has two exits, and even training dummies for target practice!
Forward spawns are empty for a reason. They're meant to be light on visuals so that the only thing in your immediate vision is the spawn door. The final spawn rooms on 5cp maps are often just a bare room and don't allow you back inside in order to subconsciously keep gameplay flowing. This is the same reason why maps are more detailed in the playable space but nearly everything out of bounds is empty fields. It can actually hurt readability to have too much detail in spaces, and the source engine has a strict brush and faces limit, so sometimes mappers have to keep less important areas sparse for that reason.
I always loved Thundermountains Spawnrooms, with how several of them have nice views of the map, or they have a window where you can peak and see ''your team'' (the models) doin funny stuff
I like a lot of the non immersive spawnrooms because you basically are walking out of a small building or functionally a closet, anything that isn't a small generic functional box or really small like the 5cp one ways, but something like the chinese koth map is a great storage room.
Kong King's spawn rooms are alright, but imagine if they were speakeasies with poker tables! Something to fit the early neon-noire aesthetic of the map.
@@irregularassassin6380 Nah, too much detail for something you spend maybe 5 seconds in, tops. For BLU payload and A/D spawns detail can go a long way because you have to sit in there for upwards of a minute, but there's no point in making spawns look nice if you're just going to walk out of there the second you spawn in.
I think that locker room props are an important design choice, it allows people to immediately feel "safe". That is because this prop is never used outside of the spawn rooms. Resupply cabinet is another staple of a spawn room, but I think the more the better. Immersive designs are obviously good, but we shouldn't neglect significance of other symbols (locker rooms) that are connected with the feeling of a spawn room.
Something that I still find that's important about a spawn room is how long it takes for you to actually leave it. Almost no spawn room suffers from this problem, but Egypt noticeably has you waste much time walking to get anywhere outside the spawn room, specially BLU. Stage 2 is the most noticeable, for if you want to leave through the small door, you have to walk all the way through, and you are not even allowed to build a teleporter. I find this much annoying!
The 5cp spawn rooms only unlock when you control the middle and forward point. They're nerfed precisely to avoid the home field advantage that the defending team gets. It's inconsistent. Also by making the rooms exit-only they can avoid complicated door logic since the door just needs to open when someone's inside. The hypothetical entrance clip doesn't have to be toggled on and off based on which point is active (which could potentially get the door stuck open), or risk someone being able to enter a spawn point behind the points that are being contested.
some maps have the forward spawn spawns located 1 point behind, so when you capture mid you spawn at your 2nd point, when you capture the enemy teams 2nd point you spawn at mid i dont see why oneway doors are necessary on maps like these other than to prevent hiding in spawn in comp, but coldfront is in no way a 6s map and its full of oneway spawns, and process IS a 6s map and yet the spawnrooms are exploitable, you can actually hide in a forward spawn even after you lose the point, and ive seen a dude actually do that. as far as i know, this has never caused an issue in an actual 6s match oneway doors feel like a very aggressive way to prevent engineers from playing the game until either team gets pushed back to last
the doors are one way on 5cp so that it doesn't make the point easily defendable. If the team defending mid on badlands had constant access to a resup cabinet you would just never be able to retake it lol
It is a vague memory, but one of the past favourite spawn rooms had to be from a lost and forgotten custom map call "Koth_basement_v4" Was made by a L4D2 mapper. The Tf2 maps they made were always very... unique. Basement was one of the most claustrophobic in a serious way maps I've ever seen. They also worked on a 5cp map that was 5 different skyscrapers and a territory control map where the red spawn was a lighthouse directly in the middle. I was their only playtester at the time, but I vividly remember these maps and how you could tell a l4d2 mapper made them, they felt so damn weird. But the l4d2 philosophy of "making saferoom interesting and fun to exist in for long periods of time carried over to the spawn rooms. I really wish I could tell you where to find them, but it is all lost media. The download link is gone, but you can still find vids of the skyscrapers and the basement.
@@georgethakur Actually took me bit to find them, but these were the only ones I could find. /watch?v=hx3gDOawsQU /watch?v=DZJfHcHLgo0&list=PL_1E9EkIF5hRRE7OAJhsdlvNPqphvgNhs&ab_channel=OvercookedSushi
For engineer: most spawn rooms let you build just outside the door so you can stand inside and refill your metal by either changing a weapon or binding `item_loadpreset 0` to a key and pressing it. It's really trivial to have one direction spawn rooms when the Eureka effect can also teleport you in with ease.
Some maps like process have func_nobuild brushes in the way so you can’t build while holding the door open. The eureka effect is definitely a good way to get around it though
Real talk; What is to stop the community from patching these maps ourselves? Fix all the issues like you had mentioned in Dustbowl video, then host them on a private server? Maybe make a git of development so there is a hub for patch notes and version history.
Some people have done this to a limited extent, but I don't think it's worth the hassle just to play on community servers unless you run a large chain like Uncletopia or something
This is simply incredible! I love your videos, the way you find little details in tf2 maps and also tell us some interesting facts really captures me. Good video, LED
Another point to make about specifically first spawns for blu in a/d cp and payload maps is that players are gonna spend a while there twiddling their thumbs waiting for setup to end. Its great to have some "player enrichment" for BLU to pass time with. Visuals help, but so do random things like adding stuff for players to jump and climb onto, or physics props to mess around with or even a deathpit for people to hurl themselves into for fun.
I agree, good points. I love the aesthetics of the game and being able to actually leave is important and overlooked. Particularly what I like is when it shows you how the blu mercs got there, like hardwood as a bunch of crashed jeeps in their starting spawn.
Blues second spawn on dustbowl was so bad that they added a drop down on the left because it was really easy to sticky spam the trench and then move into spawn camp. It happened all the time on ps3
Because I *only* play attack/defense, I know some funny details you can do in the spawns of basically every map of the game mode. Here's a big list: Dustbow: - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be on top of a lantern in that right corridor with the rail, as soldier, demo, etc.. - in the second stage (red spawn) you can be at the top of both of the resupply cabin as heavy, spy, etc... Just get on the bench and crouch+jump into a metal bar in the wall - in the last stage, you can do the item above in the blue team! Mountain Lab: in Blue Spawn, you can be at the top of the "wood frame" of that inner metal door as heavy, spy, etc... The jumps are quite tricky, but you can do partner taunts there, too! Egypt - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be at the top of the resupply cabin in a way that looks like you're floating. You can do partner taunts while "floating" too, but he hitbox is quite precise, so people will eventually fail at the taunt, and that's funny! - in the first stage (red spawn) you can be stuck in a corner by jumping into a torch (using some boxes or the height of the stair). Partner taunts works too and it's good to confuse new players. in the last stage (blue spawn), in the right door, you can jump into the middle of the pillars to exit the spawn faster while the door is going down. Just saying this because I rarely see other people using this and I think it's useful. Gravel Pit: in the blue spawn, if you know you're gonna lose the game, you can do a rocket jump / sentry jump to be at the top of a "light pole". Nobody looks up there! Junction: - At the blue spawn, you can be at the top of both resupply cabin by doing some jumps and strafes. You can further jump to a light switch to be in a even funnier place. - At the blue spawn, going towards A, there's a computer that is not solid, you can hide there and do partner taunts as well. - in the red spawn, you can switch loadouts if you are in the base but not in same room as the resupply cabin. I wonder why that happen... Gorge: - in the first blue spawn, you can be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy, engi, etc.. And even above the vent for soldier and scout. - you reach the second blue spawn as pyro with the detonator. Additionally, there's a tree right after the spawn that you can stand on it, as any mobile class. Nobody looks up there, and you can camp the point and the spawn from there. Mercenary Park: - In the first blue spawn, you be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy with the GRU. You can also reach the metal bars at the ceiling as pyro with the detonator.
I think Dustbowl's spawn rooms are also really great aesthetically. It really shows the early-tf2 era art-style that they talked about in the developer commentary, where at the start you see more "natural" settings with BLU and RED trying to disguise their operations but as you go further the mask starts slipping off... and you see in dustbowl as it gets more and more industrialized. In this case the spawn rooms having giant missiles underneath them. Also, Hydro's spawn room underneath the satelite dish is very unique. It's a long, round corridor that doesn't ressemble anything else in any other map. Even though it's a bit barren, it gets points for being unique. I love little topics like these and I think that map making in source engine is an art form, I wouldn't mind more videos talking about small and overlooked details like these.
3:00 because it's a balancing feature. In 6s there's such a thing as "sacrifice", or just "sac". Basically to avoid stalemate, while pushing into enemy last, one of your player can rush in, get destroyed, switch to sniper to get some space and try to drop enemy medic, or spy to make unexpected play. There's a period after sac, when pushing team has to play 5v6, and it gives a chance for enemy team to countersac or make any play with lower risk. To switch you need to get into spawnroom, you need someone to open a door for you, or sac by yourself. If fowardspawns would be open all time, there won't be any risk at all, becuase enemy team won't know about 5v6. and basically there's no risk at all for pushing team, cuz thier player can get back into fight real quick, instead of waiting "15 seconds to respawn". Also. It will be a nightmare for flank players to play behind enemy lines, when there is fully working resuply room for enemies. There's no cabinet, but resuply bind exists. (also you can build as engie in foward anyway, just don't leave it fully). (no fowardspawns = stalemate, 5cps are stalematy enough in pubs already, cuz pablo.2017 and his friends are building 5 sentries on mid)
@@pepperonipizza8200 5cp does not work in casual, because heavy, engie and sniper presents on map all the time, w/o class limits. But in 6v6 it's the most balanced and fun gamemode. Back-n-forward action.
But the walk to the forward spawn is like 7 seconds. And it will be another 7 seconds back. It's such a long walk that visiting forward spawn might as well be respawning. You just don't have to deal with the +-5 seconds spawn waves can induce. The logic is kinda flawed. By the way, how do people deal with the fact that badlands has a forward spawn that can always be accessed and holds a resupply cabinet? How does that work?
@@redstonewarrior0152 you counted it wrong: ~6 seconds to sac, 15 to spawn and another 10-15 just to walk to the frontline again (if u want to offclass u swap to spy or sniper, not just to scout or solly). Istead of 7 to rocketjump/run as scout to spawn, and switch. Badlands is not being played in comp since like 2017 ig.(?) Even tho, some maps has special versions just for comp. Like, granary_pro is more optimized for 6s, has some objects moved/removed, badwater_pro for highlander has 1 more forwardspawns, and new routes, prcoess splash fixed. So when comp tf2 oldheads were playing badlands, they most likely used badlands_pro version of the map w/o this forwardspawn bug and some other features, like fixed splash on spire.
Me? I'm a simple man. Just a guy. I think my favorite type of room design is the "safe room" An employee break room, a spawn room, you name it. Just a small decorated little space where you can take a break from it all, shielded from whatever oposes you, temporarily. This video is truly for me
8:25 If the other entrances are blocked, as well, this will make spies unable to attack the nests that are always built right outside of the spawn at the second point.
I don't get the hate for koth_king's spawn room when it seems to check off at least 2/3 of the most important features, multiple exits and a good level of immersion. It has three exits, the large centre that you can push out of, as well as two flanks, one leading to a higher level, and one leading to a faster route to the objective. As for immersion, it's a warehouse in a backstreet in Hong Kong that's serving as a false front for a gambling den, as you can see in the viewing area in the back, it also uses much of the same assets as the rest of the level. Calling it bad immersion because it looks like a warehouse when it's meant to be a warehouse is dumb, especially when there are so many maps with spawn rooms that are just four walls and a door.
The "etcetera" pronunciation test was unfortunately failed 0:34 seconds into the video. Your license to exist will be revoked within the next few business days.
2fort has that funny hole on the floor as a spawn """door""" for one of the spawns. It's just hilarious to drop behind an enemy passing by and backstabbing him 😂
I love spawn buildings in Planetside 2. It's a design challenge to accomodate a 4v10 fight and 40v40 at the same space, and give protection from all kinds of vehicles. They are almost open, giving view advantage to defending side. And lack of details whisper: don't sit in the spawn room, go out! Tech plant spawn building has an underground pipe system, which gives access to an entire base. But it's also sort of hidden out of normal sight when you run out, which makes the normal way out more popular. Isamir underground bunker facilites have many temporary spawns; lighted arrows on the floor to show the way; ability for attackers to shut the main doors, so defenders are forced to take the vents out. Interesting base to play on.
Ngl, desperately fighting your way out of your spawn room as the timer until the facility is capped ticks down truly is a feeling everyone should experience once. Espetially if they make it.
Tbf a lot of the competitive pro versions of maps have some of these changes, main one coming to mind is the second exit added to the second blu spawn on badwater
I love your videos. They are well researched and informative along with having plenty of comically exaggerated examples supporting your points. Keep it up!
Idk if anyone said, but that door on badwater that lines up with spawn but isn’t accessible is actually part of the halloween map bloodwater. They did use it, but only for the Halloween version
I haven’t brought it up in a while, but I have a Discord server! I use it to chat with ya’ll and set up events, so hop in: discord.gg/4UMFUcYFeM
the rock with the mad milk though
Not mentioned in your video, but for attack-defend maps, you can resupply as engineer in the forward spawns by edging yourself at the door and changing load-outs, via the load-out binds, as a way to resupply for buildings.
LED my friend create the good map the name is Podzolic , can you see?
top 10 most pointless youtube videos
@@Azilythe fiif8ggg
I am now cursed with the knowledge that the badwater benches levitate
i am one with the knowledge that the badwater benches levitate
I am indifferent to the knowledge that the badwater benches levitate
I have no knowledge about the badwater benches levitating
Here's more cursed knowledge
The water cooler in Red's second spawn in steel to the left is facing the wrong way
Oh yes, 0/10 map, game breaking.
The Mountain Lab spawn also has a nice bit of environmental storytelling included, with the airboat apparently being the means by which the BLU team arrived.
that gives me some old de_nuke vibes with the van crashed into a gate and a dead guard in the booth near T spawn
@@dermeister8787 de_train has a similar arrival for the terrorist team.
Enclosure also has a neat little detail where you load the cart onto an airboat on stage 2 and you see the airboat behind you in spawn on stage 3.
True. It's these details that build a world.
A few have story telling like that. Hoodoo has an Ambulance and cart from a tunnel. Pier has a boat below the spawn with a bomb being lifted up to the higher floor. Steel has a whole train just outside spawn as if Blue rode in on it. There's a lot of "Blue arrived to attack Red" story telling."
The basement spawn rooms in 2fort with no spawn points 💀
Those are perhaps some of the creepiest rooms
Those are resupply rooms, as the map originally shipped without the health and ammo packs in the basement.
It's an elevator, if you switch classes while in there you go up to one of the spawn rooms
@@ronaid-with-an-inever thought of it like that, but there’s no elevator door in either of the spawn rooms that would connect to the basement
@@syco9008 emesis blue:
Those Spawn Rooms better be good, after all, the time you spend in them is longer than you think, it's eternity in there.
My eyes hurt.
*shaking insanely*
10:22
Looks like he's in the barrel today.
brickiest brick in the barrel
An outrageous fact is the Halloween version of Badwater, bloodwater, has it's side exit available to go through
2:51 🪨
Mountain Lab and Gravel Pit are so comfy
Nice video. You can't go back into the spawns for 5CP by design. It has an effect on the pace of the game. One interesting exception to this rule is the forward spawn on badlands which DOES let you back in and has a resupply cabinet, but it's off to the side in what is considered the flank. You could argue that it entices certain traffic patterns across the map.
Great, informative, entertaining video as always :D
I think it'd be interesting if you made a video on the original six maps that TF2 launched with (2Fort, Dustbowl, Granary, Well, Gravel Pit, Hydro), how they've changed, and what we can learn from analyzing TF2's map design and art style back in 2007 compared to now.
Funnily enough, in Bloodwater, Badwater's Halloween counterpart, the second spawn exit for BLU is actually present, and as expected, it can help a lot in many ways, but it still feels extremely weird to have it, at least for me
That is a hard thumbnail
One way doors are pretty important for most 5cp maps. Preventing people from going back in allows for easier flank picks on the offensive team to give defenders opportunities for creating openings. Plus, you can't duck into it to escape when the defense pushes out. Offense already has a pretty considerable respawn time advantage, so they'll win a grind war all other things being equal. The idea of the one way doors is more or less one of several mechanisms to make blue lose a lot of ground when they fail to cap last. The offensive team is AGGRESSIVELY punished for flubbing a push onto last, and that is by design. With stock settings a successful hold can almost immediately be flipped into retaking mid with uber advantage.
Pushing them back to the previous point is far too far to travel, especially on the bigger maps, and that would lead to very drawn out stalemates.
That extra door on badwater is actually in the pro version of the map
Mountain lab rocks because there's a can with physics
If I had to guess, I think most of the asymmetrical capture point maps have bland designs in Red and quirky designs in Blu because Blu has to wait for Red to set-up for a minute, so there's some interesting bits and bobs to look at while waiting.
Most likely originally the spawn rooms were bland for both teams. Also serves a purpose of getting Red out of spawn, since it's kinda visually boring in there.
Now for the situations where it's the opposite, or the spawn rooms are decorated very differently on otherwise symmetrical maps, I have no idea.
My favorite spawn rooms are the ones in Team Fortress Classic, because they have security turrets. You never know what kind of exploits people will come up with.
Shoutout to Hardwood BLU first spawn. One of the few times I made sure to convince other people to turn around, and admire the vista.
while i do agree that aesthetically egypts spawn rooms are great they’re some of my least favourite spawns because of how unnecessarily large they are on some stages it’s like a ten+ second walk out of spawn and it always really annoys me
That's a fair point. I brought them up specifically for their immersion factor. Functionally, they're not among the best.
Good video though I disagree on your opinion with Kong King's spawn room; it seems it's a small empty storage place repurposed as a locker room spawn, which also considering it's a different country, fits well into the Chinatown alleyway brawl that Kong King is supposed to be
bro is like the GD colon of TF2
Of course they are important, especially on dustbowls because you, gonna see this room a LOT
good looking spawn rooms are especially nice because you spend the entire setup time in there, at least on blu team
The Outro 💀
i really just went "oh a 10 min video about tf2 spawn rooms fuck yea"
"I know that the one-way nature of this door is intentional [...] but I don't understand why"
*They are not resup rooms. It's just a spawn.* The reason they exist is to skip the walk across the map and sustain pressure on the team defending last. If you could go back in to resupply or switch classes that would be a reward for capping mid and second, instead of something to make the mode fast and fun. It's 5cp, you just don't play this mode like that, it's not viaduct
You _can_ "hold" the door from inside for someone and it happens in sixes on rare occasions, but that's balanced out by the fact you need to dedicate a respawning player to the task.
Ok, and then you talk about leaving the spawn as it is and using teleporters?
Like, that's just not how the game is designed, you're supposed to be back in the fight after a few seconds from respawning. You kinda allude to the point that this change would increase the viability on engi on 5cp (aside from his use on last and full battle-engi otherwise) but it's viability by necessity, not because the class is suddenly more fun. Like, if you need a teleporter to play the game, that leads to whining about nobody playing engi, not players choosing engi because the map is fun to play for him
Agree to disagree
What 7 years without an update does to a man
ah, the spawn rooms... the room of mayhem.
3:12 You missed the Eureka Effect.
I did
0:00 that is what makes a great tf2 map: sewers, why? Pyrosharks are cool
degrootkeeps pretty good too
9:15 i think there are potentially 2 reasons as to why.
1) The spawncamping on Badwater last is a rare issue. RED have to cross like half the map to get there and if they indeed do - its because they are pubstomping the shit out of the BLU and another spawn door is not gonna help you.
2) That sideways door would be a direct upgrade to the one we have now - because of that weird tunnel area that forces players to go in the "wrong" direction for a second, while the sideways door would've been a straight forward path to the objective that literally every class that can't explosive jump would be taking 9 cases out of 10 instead of wasting time on the Funnel of Wrong Directions.
In other words - that sideway door would become the new main door, which would leave the original door without a job, where it would only ever be used to counter spawncamping.
But again: if it ever came down to that - you honestly have bigger issues on your hands.
I have always been fascinated by spawn rooms in TF2 so this video is right up my alley. I am always baffled when otherwise great maps just don't put that extra little bit of effort to make visually interesting spawns.
Im pretty sure the spawns on 5cp maps are 1 way so people wouldnt be able to run back to the resupply cabinet in the middle of a fight, as most spawn rooms are usually right next to a point. Sure its unable to be capped but players could still have encounters with enemies there.
I still hate that they're 1 way though and dont like it
Why do some of the locker rooms have surveillance cameras in them?
9:51 Thie is incorrect. BLU's Second spawn area only had 1 path (which leads to the 2 gates that opens to the outside) to the battlements back then, and near RED's Exit area to BLU'S Final spawn area there was no stairs leading up to the first bridged area.
Those changes happened in 2007
@@LEDs You said "since it's launch back in 2007". I just wanted to clarify it
5cp maps don't have access to spawn an resupply because of comp, it would be op or smthn no idea
as an engi main the lack of supply cabs and the fact that my tele is kinda useless because the spawn changes so much is so frustrating that i never play them or atleast not as engi. I just dont get it it just kinda kills an entire class and i just cant see the benefit of it. I even find it hurts balancing because would the spawn not move the team that gets pushed back would have an easier time going to the next point and that would really help against the many matches where one team just get steamrolled. But no like ruberbanding in racing games the winning team is allways getting closer to the enemy main point. so much for my little rant thanks for listening xD
Eureka 3:12 I solved the issue . Effect
That’s a great point
i don't like spawn rooms, it's eternity in there
"Sir, this is Wendy's"
Here's an idea. Would be cool to have out-of-reach invulnerable lvl 3 sentries guarding the entrance of a team. That would eliminate spawn camping entirely. You could use clip brushes to prevent spies from zapping them by having them out of their zapping range. And even if you can't make the sentries invulnerable, you could make them re-spawn instantly as soon as they're destroyed.
You'd only be able to distract them with Scout's bonk and push with an uber, but you wouldn't be able to do much with them against two lvl 3 invulnerable sentries.
My only concern is the ammunition going empty in those lvl 3 sentries. Maybe vscripting would have to do something about it.
I’m not sure it would eliminate spawn camping, it maybe would just make the enemy team just spawn camp slightly further down the map 🤔 idk tho
Look man, I get making the spawn room look as fancy as possible, but jesus christ why must the resupply locker be an entire continent away from the exist/entrance
you didn't have to make the thumbnail go so damn hard
Counterpoint: Spawn
It's eternity in there...
@@Nykomilemesis blue mentioned let's goo
@@JangoLibre
Emesis red when??
@@Reimu__Hakureiemesis purple when?
Really glossed over the fact Blu first spawns are so detailed are because Blu spends over a minute in them in setup.
That's a pretty good point. Huh.
literally what I was thinking as I was watching. All these spawns that are more detailed are the ones you would spend the most time in. When making a map, you gotta focus your effort on the stuff that matters the most, and when a player will spend at most a second or 2 per life in a spawn room, it makes sense not to put as much effort into it and to focus that effort elsewhere.
Valve, please give us an update, PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO TALK ABOUT THE F*ING SPAWN ROOMS.
We just got the 64 gb update 🤓
There's nothing that hasn't been talked about about TF2 already. TF2bers are starving for content.
What years without a major update does to a mf
"omg people are out of ideas"
My guy, this is breaking down the core design philosophy of the game. If you can't appreciate that, I'm guessing those 8 minute 1 second clip dumps called "CASUAL IS WACKY" would be more your speed
@@Great_Bluenigh on 2 decades of the same memes and countless deaths to random crits have rotted the brain such that TF2 players are incapable of high level critical thinking. I reckon you probably get a lot of comments like this on your more analytical videos.
Love your work as well.
The spawn room is where I spend the most of my time in tf2, besides the respawn counter.
I like spawn rooms that tell you a story
when the emesis is blue
When the Spawn is Camped
emesis blue
I’m still bummed they never used the class specific spawns. It’d be so so cool to have a dedicated sniper spawn on some payload maps.
Agreed
Or dedicated Spy spawns that let you spawn further into enemy territory.
@@TheTdw2000HELL YES!!
@@TheTdw2000 Its called flank rout
@@TheTdw2000no on the spy spawns behind behind enemy lines it removes the skill to go behind, also it would just get spawn camped
You forgot to mention it feels eternity in there and it's longer than you think.
I’ve seen the other side. It’s longer than you think.
Archibald…
Archibald…
@@amazingnoo9935 archihairy
I think the bland spawnrooms is an intentional choice to push players out into the battlefield. Most of the nice looking spawns are the ones that you have to wait in during setup.
That's probably a fair assessment, but one can't help but feel in some cases that the forward spawn rooms are kinda squeezed in as an afterthought, since it's an easy mistake as a map maker to think that spawn rooms aren't as big as they really are.
badwater spawn , slow fall damage kills lol
Spawn rooms are my favorite places in a map aesthetically. Especially Mossrock's Blu spawn takes the cake. (Monster Bash is a close second)
I didn’t mention the Halloween or Christmas maps, but there are some great candidates there as well
I think DeGroot Keep's spawn rooms are also really good, especially Blu's. Lots of nice storytelling in that one, plus it has two exits, and even training dummies for target practice!
Forward spawns are empty for a reason. They're meant to be light on visuals so that the only thing in your immediate vision is the spawn door. The final spawn rooms on 5cp maps are often just a bare room and don't allow you back inside in order to subconsciously keep gameplay flowing. This is the same reason why maps are more detailed in the playable space but nearly everything out of bounds is empty fields. It can actually hurt readability to have too much detail in spaces, and the source engine has a strict brush and faces limit, so sometimes mappers have to keep less important areas sparse for that reason.
You know, emesis blue tried to warn us about the respawn machine
It's eternity in there...
0:08 you could also pick a good map and talk about it for 12 hours
Never
badwater@@LEDs
@@LEDs dustbowl
@@LEDs Do you know what video he's referencing ?
Everything about TF2 has been talked about already. Coverage about the game has been burnt into a crisp.
I always loved Thundermountains Spawnrooms, with how several of them have nice views of the map, or they have a window where you can peak and see ''your team'' (the models) doin funny stuff
Yeah, they're nice
The pool lanes look so cozy. Like an alpine lodge resort with your buddies.
9:17 Bloodwater version has that door... and it was very brilliant idea, also everyone would go to that way too.
0:34 aww hell nah 💀
rock_005
I like a lot of the non immersive spawnrooms because you basically are walking out of a small building or functionally a closet, anything that isn't a small generic functional box or really small like the 5cp one ways, but something like the chinese koth map is a great storage room.
Kong King's spawn rooms are alright, but imagine if they were speakeasies with poker tables! Something to fit the early neon-noire aesthetic of the map.
Kong King could definitely be much better.
@@irregularassassin6380 Nah, too much detail for something you spend maybe 5 seconds in, tops.
For BLU payload and A/D spawns detail can go a long way because you have to sit in there for upwards of a minute, but there's no point in making spawns look nice if you're just going to walk out of there the second you spawn in.
I think that locker room props are an important design choice, it allows people to immediately feel "safe". That is because this prop is never used outside of the spawn rooms. Resupply cabinet is another staple of a spawn room, but I think the more the better.
Immersive designs are obviously good, but we shouldn't neglect significance of other symbols (locker rooms) that are connected with the feeling of a spawn room.
I knew that this benches had something wrong with them. Good to finally know what exactly.
0:35 - You just *_had_* to do that on purpose, didn't you?
ya
I was finding this comment
Something that I still find that's important about a spawn room is how long it takes for you to actually leave it. Almost no spawn room suffers from this problem, but Egypt noticeably has you waste much time walking to get anywhere outside the spawn room, specially BLU. Stage 2 is the most noticeable, for if you want to leave through the small door, you have to walk all the way through, and you are not even allowed to build a teleporter. I find this much annoying!
The 5cp spawn rooms only unlock when you control the middle and forward point. They're nerfed precisely to avoid the home field advantage that the defending team gets. It's inconsistent.
Also by making the rooms exit-only they can avoid complicated door logic since the door just needs to open when someone's inside. The hypothetical entrance clip doesn't have to be toggled on and off based on which point is active (which could potentially get the door stuck open), or risk someone being able to enter a spawn point behind the points that are being contested.
Also what if there isn't an engineer? How is the team supposed to "just take a teleporter"
some maps have the forward spawn spawns located 1 point behind, so when you capture mid you spawn at your 2nd point, when you capture the enemy teams 2nd point you spawn at mid
i dont see why oneway doors are necessary on maps like these other than to prevent hiding in spawn in comp, but coldfront is in no way a 6s map and its full of oneway spawns, and process IS a 6s map and yet the spawnrooms are exploitable, you can actually hide in a forward spawn even after you lose the point, and ive seen a dude actually do that. as far as i know, this has never caused an issue in an actual 6s match
oneway doors feel like a very aggressive way to prevent engineers from playing the game until either team gets pushed back to last
Tell me why badlands 1st forward spawn is always unlocked then.
And its got a resupply cabinet.
the doors are one way on 5cp so that it doesn't make the point easily defendable. If the team defending mid on badlands had constant access to a resup cabinet you would just never be able to retake it lol
It is a vague memory, but one of the past favourite spawn rooms had to be from a lost and forgotten custom map call "Koth_basement_v4"
Was made by a L4D2 mapper. The Tf2 maps they made were always very... unique. Basement was one of the most claustrophobic in a serious way maps I've ever seen. They also worked on a 5cp map that was 5 different skyscrapers and a territory control map where the red spawn was a lighthouse directly in the middle. I was their only playtester at the time, but I vividly remember these maps and how you could tell a l4d2 mapper made them, they felt so damn weird. But the l4d2 philosophy of "making saferoom interesting and fun to exist in for long periods of time carried over to the spawn rooms.
I really wish I could tell you where to find them, but it is all lost media. The download link is gone, but you can still find vids of the skyscrapers and the basement.
could you link the videos?
@@georgethakur Actually took me bit to find them, but these were the only ones I could find.
/watch?v=hx3gDOawsQU
/watch?v=DZJfHcHLgo0&list=PL_1E9EkIF5hRRE7OAJhsdlvNPqphvgNhs&ab_channel=OvercookedSushi
@@vectormanforever you weren't kidding about the claustrophobia
For engineer: most spawn rooms let you build just outside the door so you can stand inside and refill your metal by either changing a weapon or binding `item_loadpreset 0` to a key and pressing it. It's really trivial to have one direction spawn rooms when the Eureka effect can also teleport you in with ease.
Some maps like process have func_nobuild brushes in the way so you can’t build while holding the door open. The eureka effect is definitely a good way to get around it though
Real talk; What is to stop the community from patching these maps ourselves? Fix all the issues like you had mentioned in Dustbowl video, then host them on a private server? Maybe make a git of development so there is a hub for patch notes and version history.
Some people have done this to a limited extent, but I don't think it's worth the hassle just to play on community servers unless you run a large chain like Uncletopia or something
Great video, im gonna keep in mind all this when making spawnrooms from now on
hello ethosaur, funny seeing you again :]
This is simply incredible! I love your videos, the way you find little details in tf2 maps and also tell us some interesting facts really captures me. Good video, LED
Tbh you kinda lost me with that one-way spawn complaint
Why? He's not wrong
The mad milk 40 seconds in had me take a double take
5cp makes sense tbh it would give forward spawners way too much advantages so making them "boring" is intended.
Another point to make about specifically first spawns for blu in a/d cp and payload maps is that players are gonna spend a while there twiddling their thumbs waiting for setup to end. Its great to have some "player enrichment" for BLU to pass time with. Visuals help, but so do random things like adding stuff for players to jump and climb onto, or physics props to mess around with or even a deathpit for people to hurl themselves into for fun.
You should look into the summer map's spawn rooms! Especially Operation Embargo!
I agree, good points. I love the aesthetics of the game and being able to actually leave is important and overlooked.
Particularly what I like is when it shows you how the blu mercs got there, like hardwood as a bunch of crashed jeeps in their starting spawn.
Blues second spawn on dustbowl was so bad that they added a drop down on the left because it was really easy to sticky spam the trench and then move into spawn camp. It happened all the time on ps3
Because I *only* play attack/defense, I know some funny details you can do in the spawns of basically every map of the game mode. Here's a big list:
Dustbow: - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be on top of a lantern in that right corridor with the rail, as soldier, demo, etc..
- in the second stage (red spawn) you can be at the top of both of the resupply cabin as heavy, spy, etc... Just get on the bench and crouch+jump into a metal bar in the wall
- in the last stage, you can do the item above in the blue team!
Mountain Lab: in Blue Spawn, you can be at the top of the "wood frame" of that inner metal door as heavy, spy, etc... The jumps are quite tricky, but you can do partner taunts there, too!
Egypt - in the first stage (blue spawn) you can be at the top of the resupply cabin in a way that looks like you're floating. You can do partner taunts while "floating" too, but he hitbox is quite precise, so people will eventually fail at the taunt, and that's funny!
- in the first stage (red spawn) you can be stuck in a corner by jumping into a torch (using some boxes or the height of the stair). Partner taunts works too and it's good to confuse new players.
in the last stage (blue spawn), in the right door, you can jump into the middle of the pillars to exit the spawn faster while the door is going down. Just saying this because I rarely see other people using this and I think it's useful.
Gravel Pit: in the blue spawn, if you know you're gonna lose the game, you can do a rocket jump / sentry jump to be at the top of a "light pole". Nobody looks up there!
Junction: - At the blue spawn, you can be at the top of both resupply cabin by doing some jumps and strafes. You can further jump to a light switch to be in a even funnier place.
- At the blue spawn, going towards A, there's a computer that is not solid, you can hide there and do partner taunts as well.
- in the red spawn, you can switch loadouts if you are in the base but not in same room as the resupply cabin. I wonder why that happen...
Gorge: - in the first blue spawn, you can be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy, engi, etc.. And even above the vent for soldier and scout.
- you reach the second blue spawn as pyro with the detonator. Additionally, there's a tree right after the spawn that you can stand on it, as any mobile class. Nobody looks up there, and you can camp the point and the spawn from there.
Mercenary Park: - In the first blue spawn, you be at the top of the resupply cabin as heavy with the GRU. You can also reach the metal bars at the ceiling as pyro with the detonator.
the moan at the "show love" mention 💀
I think Dustbowl's spawn rooms are also really great aesthetically. It really shows the early-tf2 era art-style that they talked about in the developer commentary, where at the start you see more "natural" settings with BLU and RED trying to disguise their operations but as you go further the mask starts slipping off... and you see in dustbowl as it gets more and more industrialized. In this case the spawn rooms having giant missiles underneath them.
Also, Hydro's spawn room underneath the satelite dish is very unique. It's a long, round corridor that doesn't ressemble anything else in any other map. Even though it's a bit barren, it gets points for being unique.
I love little topics like these and I think that map making in source engine is an art form, I wouldn't mind more videos talking about small and overlooked details like these.
3:00 because it's a balancing feature. In 6s there's such a thing as "sacrifice", or just "sac". Basically to avoid stalemate, while pushing into enemy last, one of your player can rush in, get destroyed, switch to sniper to get some space and try to drop enemy medic, or spy to make unexpected play. There's a period after sac, when pushing team has to play 5v6, and it gives a chance for enemy team to countersac or make any play with lower risk. To switch you need to get into spawnroom, you need someone to open a door for you, or sac by yourself. If fowardspawns would be open all time, there won't be any risk at all, becuase enemy team won't know about 5v6. and basically there's no risk at all for pushing team, cuz thier player can get back into fight real quick, instead of waiting "15 seconds to respawn". Also. It will be a nightmare for flank players to play behind enemy lines, when there is fully working resuply room for enemies. There's no cabinet, but resuply bind exists. (also you can build as engie in foward anyway, just don't leave it fully). (no fowardspawns = stalemate, 5cps are stalematy enough in pubs already, cuz pablo.2017 and his friends are building 5 sentries on mid)
Almost sounds like 5cp is an inherently flawed game mode.
@@pepperonipizza8200its flawed for casual.
@@pepperonipizza8200 5cp does not work in casual, because heavy, engie and sniper presents on map all the time, w/o class limits. But in 6v6 it's the most balanced and fun gamemode. Back-n-forward action.
But the walk to the forward spawn is like 7 seconds.
And it will be another 7 seconds back.
It's such a long walk that visiting forward spawn might as well be respawning. You just don't have to deal with the +-5 seconds spawn waves can induce.
The logic is kinda flawed.
By the way, how do people deal with the fact that badlands has a forward spawn that can always be accessed and holds a resupply cabinet?
How does that work?
@@redstonewarrior0152 you counted it wrong: ~6 seconds to sac, 15 to spawn and another 10-15 just to walk to the frontline again (if u want to offclass u swap to spy or sniper, not just to scout or solly). Istead of 7 to rocketjump/run as scout to spawn, and switch.
Badlands is not being played in comp since like 2017 ig.(?) Even tho, some maps has special versions just for comp. Like, granary_pro is more optimized for 6s, has some objects moved/removed, badwater_pro for highlander has 1 more forwardspawns, and new routes, prcoess splash fixed. So when comp tf2 oldheads were playing badlands, they most likely used badlands_pro version of the map w/o this forwardspawn bug and some other features, like fixed splash on spire.
Me? I'm a simple man. Just a guy. I think my favorite type of room design is the "safe room"
An employee break room, a spawn room, you name it. Just a small decorated little space where you can take a break from it all, shielded from whatever oposes you, temporarily.
This video is truly for me
Curse you for telling me about the Badwater benches. That's a literal cognitohazard.
8:25 If the other entrances are blocked, as well, this will make spies unable to attack the nests that are always built right outside of the spawn at the second point.
I don't get the hate for koth_king's spawn room when it seems to check off at least 2/3 of the most important features, multiple exits and a good level of immersion. It has three exits, the large centre that you can push out of, as well as two flanks, one leading to a higher level, and one leading to a faster route to the objective. As for immersion, it's a warehouse in a backstreet in Hong Kong that's serving as a false front for a gambling den, as you can see in the viewing area in the back, it also uses much of the same assets as the rest of the level. Calling it bad immersion because it looks like a warehouse when it's meant to be a warehouse is dumb, especially when there are so many maps with spawn rooms that are just four walls and a door.
I like your videos about tf2 maps and mechanics, even if its just walls or doors
Although, not an official map, Bricktown became one of my favourite maps just because of the spawn room.
please do make a case study video on what makes a good map on tf2, no ones stopping you, in fact im begging you, PLEEEEASE
The "etcetera" pronunciation test was unfortunately failed 0:34 seconds into the video. Your license to exist will be revoked within the next few business days.
2fort has that funny hole on the floor as a spawn """door""" for one of the spawns. It's just hilarious to drop behind an enemy passing by and backstabbing him 😂
You know the community went insane after no updates when youtubers make 10 minutes video about spawnrooms
I love spawn buildings in Planetside 2. It's a design challenge to accomodate a 4v10 fight and 40v40 at the same space, and give protection from all kinds of vehicles. They are almost open, giving view advantage to defending side. And lack of details whisper: don't sit in the spawn room, go out!
Tech plant spawn building has an underground pipe system, which gives access to an entire base. But it's also sort of hidden out of normal sight when you run out, which makes the normal way out more popular. Isamir underground bunker facilites have many temporary spawns; lighted arrows on the floor to show the way; ability for attackers to shut the main doors, so defenders are forced to take the vents out. Interesting base to play on.
The vehicle protection part usually doesn't work, and I'd argue all other locations don't have much more detail than the spawns
Ngl, desperately fighting your way out of your spawn room as the timer until the facility is capped ticks down truly is a feeling everyone should experience once. Espetially if they make it.
I'm surprised Wutville wasn't mentioned
I didn't mention any of the seasonal maps
Would be interested to see remakes of these maps' spawns in a competition or something
It would be!
Tbf a lot of the competitive pro versions of maps have some of these changes, main one coming to mind is the second exit added to the second blu spawn on badwater
Where is Wutville? God awfull spawnroom >:D
I love your videos. They are well researched and informative along with having plenty of comically exaggerated examples supporting your points. Keep it up!
Thank you!
9:12 The door works on the competitive version of the map.
Idk if anyone said, but that door on badwater that lines up with spawn but isn’t accessible is actually part of the halloween map bloodwater. They did use it, but only for the Halloween version
Yeah a couple people mentioned it
The garage door can have windows? 2fort WTF!!
HANNKKK HANKKK, DON'T ABBREVIATE CONTROL POINTS, HANNNNNNKKKKKK