There's something really appealing to me about the idea of generating a 3D-printed template, using it to produce handmade casting, then chucking it in a Modern CNC setup before bolting the final part to a century-old machine. I appreciate that you took the time to explain the journey this part's been through and that you're willing to work with and make use of the new-school techniques in your work!
watching the machining, Either putting the bolt in last, or adding a couple of holes to make a attaching to a fixture will make machining the next one easier
I remember setting the hand hole plugs on a navy ship I was on. Had to take them out for an inspection and later hydrostatic testing. Many times they wouldn't get set just right and lots of water got dumped on you til you got it just right. fun times
I just watched John's video as well. It is great to see new technology and old technology working together. I hope we see more of these type projects in the future.
Interesting as usual. When I first started the video I felt this sinking feeling that the engine was down again. After watching to completion I concluded it's not down. My wife and I will be there on Tuesday Dec. 27 to ride that train thus my fear of it being down. Jim Humphrey
I just watched John's video on the part and to be honest some of the layout stuff he showed would carry over to manual setups too.So its worth watching even if you're not a CNC guy ;)
I use both Solidworks and Fusion quite a bit for both school and some personal work, and both are excellent CAD packages by themselves. However, both can do things the other cannot do at all or do very easily. I like the refined and simplicity of Solidworks (I have been using it for about 1 and a half years now), however I like all the features and the "all in one pack" that Fusion has (ive been using Fusion for about a month, mainly for CAM). I will say I have been watching a lot of Johns videos on Fusion and its becoming a lot easier to use and understand.
How would the old timers done this 100 years ago when the Vulcan was built? Maybe an interesting project for David Richards (old steam power machine shop) to sink his teeth into? Comparing with the older hand hole cover (@1:39): shouldn't the new one also be curved to fit the boilers curvature? Very interesting project there. Thank you for sharing!
I think that with enough brain power, and outside the box thinking, the answer is yes. The real question here is, could they afford to do it, and well, that's a pickle to pick at.
If the gasket step wasn't already cast into the part at the foundry there's a few methods I know of that could have been used a hundred years ago. Attachments for turning elliptical shapes on a lathe aren't that tough to make. I believe there's at least a few shown on YT for use on a wood lathe. But the basic principle is the same for turning metal elliptical shapes Milling to coordinates would take a long time but it's still possible. Manual tracer attachments for mills that follow a master pattern much like what are used on manual engraving machines were in use as well. Some specialty lathes were built to use what's called a relieving attachment that are mostly used to provide the cutting tips relief while making something like milling cutters. But with the correct pattern could do it. Even cam driven cross slides geared to the lathes headstock rotation to follow the cam shape and drive the cross slide in and out during each rotation of the part were used. Welin interrupted thread internal and external breech threads used on artillery were made that way. Really old school would have been a cold chisel and file.
For a one off part, it would be done the same way then as now. trace a line on the part, mill by hand close to the line, finish off with a file. Would probably have taken less time that it took for John Saunders to mill it, let alone mucking around with the drawing and tool paths. Guessing Keith opted out of that route because it is interesting to make a community project, and he has better things to do than file a rabbit on cast iron.
Funny to see the modern methods making antique parts. I aimgine the original would have been entirely cast thus the reason for the very thick gasket, but a machined surface will be a better seal provided the mating surface in the boiler is also true.
Hi Keith we use fusion 360 to run our CNC plasma table and it works great. Yesterday we used one of John's tips to make a part. A customer came in with a cardboard template with a lot of crazy curves about 64"×16" we took a picture and downloaded it into fusion made DFX file and cut the part and it came out great.
hey Kieth I can get you any size hand hole cover for any size boiler, new cast hand hole with a nice cast hold down. boilers made today still use hand holes and all different sizes and shapes.
I see John had uploaded a collab vid with Keith, thought best see if Keith had uploaded a new vid before watching. Now it it'll make sense when watching Johns upload
Since the pattern was being made on a 3D printer, couldn't the recess for the gasket been included so it wouldn't needed to be machined? I don't think it would have been any more difficult to cast. Just a thought. Keep up the good work on the videos!
I would have thought this would have even made for a stronger part as the grain structure would flow better around edges of the cast shape when cast. Would love to know why it was done this way instead.
Sure, you could have cast the step in the part, but it would be a rough casting rather than a machined surface. The machined surface will seal much better against the gasket.
Assuming these both work at the same pressures, wouldn't a larger size be thicker to withstand the increased overall pressure being exerted on the flange?
I enjoy every video you make, Keith. Thanks for doing them! Why are the handholds elliptical instead of circular? Seems like more complicated geometry was chosen for a reason?
The hand hole has to fit into the hole and pull up from the bottom. You cannot get a round plate into a round hole (why manhole covers are round - they cannot fall through the hole). With it being an ellipse, you can turn it 90 degrees, fish it through the hole, turn it back 90 degrees and pull it up from the bottom.
Hi Keith. Just a question, does your boiler code allow cast iron to be used for hand-hole doors? Forged steel or cast steel I can understand but cast iron would worry me some. Just curious. You do great videos, thanks.
Cast iron is used for pressure vessels of all types and sizes. I think you are underestimating the strength and durability (even in harsh environments) of the material.
I am not underestimating the strength/durability of cast iron, but ever mindful of the possibility of hidden flaws. But obviously it complies with your boiler codes so all is good.
I don't think so but I have never used a reliving attachment. The relieving attachments had cams in them to make multiple reliefs rather than an ellipse.
Probably so. Look up Cattail Foundry on the internet. They are Amish so no web site but they do have a phone number that you can call and leave a message at - they will call you back.
CNC is much easier but a rotary table with a cross slide on top would be the easiest method I can think of for machining an ellipse, move the cross slide to the "imaginary pins" and then rotate and repeat for the other parabolic curve on the other side once you reach the midpoint of the part.
me too,they can get precise castings, im sure the original would have been cast pretty much ready to go, or they would have had to machine an awkward shape too
Pretty cool, but when the locomotive was first built they probably didn't have DRO, 3D printing, nor CNC. How did they make it back in the day? And would have the gasket been a ring of copper?
You have to step back and think what this project is. IE restoration of an old steam locomotive. Aside the fact that it's a way to involve others in the process, and all the stuff tied to that, you have to grow yourself in to the one item mantra. In short, it's much easier to hog out the excess to dimension (as it's already a tool path you take regardless of the step being there or not) than to go back and forth with your foundry (which he's not working) to get the perfect cast item, which, itself, is a big, big headache from part cooling to a % shrink, to the cost involved, etc. There's many, many reasons i could put to paper, but finality dictates that it is much simpler to do it stepless.
Great video Keith. Just curious, this being a pressure retaining part, are there not a lot of rules and regulations concerning who manufactures these parts. I'm a boiler maker in NC. I don't know what the laws are like in Georgia, but here there is a lot of scrutiny by the powers that be to assure that these sort of things are made to ASME and National Board standards. Don't want anybody getting in trouble with the boiler inspector.
made for a really cool colab for sure. but I can't help but wonder why you didn't just put the recess in the mold for the casting. It certainly doesn't need to be a machined surface. None the less, I've enjoyed your video and watching the resulting work from John, who happens to be one of my personal youtube heroes.
Typically the hand hole cover would be cast in steel not cast iron. The "wing" is more often called a strongback. The gasket step is typically machined in to give a better finish on the gasket faces. To install the cover it is put in the hole and pulled tight with the strongback, then when the boiler is up to pressure it is re-torqued so it won't relax and start leaking when the pressure is dropped at shutdown.
After watching your video I went to John's channel to watch the cnc procedure for the machining and it was very well done. What I would like to see is an experienced job shop machinist such as yourself, Keith Fenner, Adam or any of the many manual machine, job shop professionals do this job and how they would go about it in their own way doing it manually. For this one-off job it would be interesting to compare the complete programming time, set up time, material/tooling cost, procedure and outcome tolerances of the completed job start to finish from the time it comes in the door till done. Including maybe even a hack like myself that may just lay it out with scribed lines and stick it in a vice and hand cut and grind it out. Single job CNC vs. Old School. May make an interesting friendly competition. I would also be willing to donate towards all time and material involved to the competitors just as any job would be treated that came into their shop. Thanks Ed K. Cleve. Oh.
If it was a wooden part it would be pretty straight forward. So why not make a metal router? I have seen one being used with carbide bits to put round-overs on steel. It should be pretty easy I would think. It would enable more complex shapes to be machined. Just an idea
Funny optical illusion- it looked round until you spun it around. Sort of non- restoration when you CNC machine the part- I'm sure back in 1917 they simply cast the part with the step built in. Wonder why the foundry did not do it that way.
I dont get it really. Why do you make a cad-model and then cast it and then send it to the cnc? Seems to be a waste of time and money if you could machine it on the cnc right away...
+Pacific Film Or at a minimum printed the necessary shoulder. Since a gasket will be used doesn't seem like it would need to be milled perfectly flat. The should was shown in the drawing but for reason they decided not to do it that way. I do know that RUclips has been pushing collaborations, but I'm not really a fan of those all that much. Some are better than others but it just seems to turn them into a reality style program to me.
I think there are a lot of variable that may not be obvious to viewers, that may have contributed to the choices made in creating this part. What are the capabilities of the foundry? Was this project planned with CNC involvement from the start or was it originally going to be traditionally machined. Additional cost of CNC time vs foundry time, especially with the bolt feature. How much time were the people involved willing to donate to the project, being this is done for a museum I'm guessing this was not a project you could charge whatever you wanted. I'm sure there are more variable I have not even considered, but the idea is that it is easy to question how things are done when you don't actually have to step up and get the job done.
If it was a new application then it could be made from plate steel but this is a replacement part for a 100 year old steam locomotive and they want it made from cast iron like the original. 100 years ago the pattern would have been made out of wood just as the foundry may still have done for this part because the 3D printed plastic part was not made to account for the shrinkage factor of the cast part.
As you would expect, someone watched them in the WRONG order. I confess. :( It was good anyway. I saw how it was machines, and the challenges of getting it done, then I saw the explanation of what is is for, and I will be watching for when it installed. John is so full of energy and enthusiasm... he hasn't yet had a 40-year-long career to ruin him! Oh, and asaad asad is down below trying to leach links off your website here. If this were my channel, I would delete him and ban him so fast....
Shouldn't the pattern have had the lip on it? That way the casting would have had the lip and no machining would have been needed. I am sure that that is the way that they did it back in the day.
You obviously have difficultly understanding English. Just imagine how much trouble you would have understanding those folks from up North who have such a strong accent.....
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org The English language when written has these things called letters that are used to guide how words are pronounced. Many Brits have gotten lazy over the ages and frequently don't pronounce the letter 'R' and would say things like "letta 'Aw' instead. Have you ever wondered what the letter 'i' is there for in the word boiler? It gives meaning and clarity to the spoken word so that others can know what you are saying. It is not an accent difference but a laziness in speech.
There's something really appealing to me about the idea of generating a 3D-printed template, using it to produce handmade casting, then chucking it in a Modern CNC setup before bolting the final part to a century-old machine.
I appreciate that you took the time to explain the journey this part's been through and that you're willing to work with and make use of the new-school techniques in your work!
Just watched John Mill out the part really enjoy watching all the different processes being brought together.
John knows his stuff and now you know some of it too. Good on you Keith.
watching the machining, Either putting the bolt in last, or adding a couple of holes to make a attaching to a fixture will make machining the next one easier
I remember setting the hand hole plugs on a navy ship I was on. Had to take them out for an inspection and later hydrostatic testing. Many times they wouldn't get set just right and lots of water got dumped on you til you got it just right. fun times
I just watched John's video as well. It is great to see new technology and old technology working together. I hope we see more of these type projects in the future.
Great job on all the great RUclips folks on making this part happen ! Great share Keith ..Thumbs up
BLOW OFF YOUR STEAM SOMEWHERE ELSE !! NOT YOU KEITH ..
Yes, watched both, very interesting Keith & John. Hope the question I asked over there didn't ruin it..LOL I learned a little out of it anyway.
Just watched the machining of the part - it came out great. :). Nice collaboration.
Nice project !
Enjoyed
THANK YOU...for sharing.
Hey Keith, I really enjoy your videos. Thanks for doing them.
I love watching this stuff!
Interesting as usual. When I first started the video I felt this sinking feeling that the engine was down again. After watching to completion I concluded it's not down. My wife and I will be there on Tuesday Dec. 27 to ride that train thus my fear of it being down. Jim Humphrey
I like your new double decker surface plate! LOL
Looks like you need to build another stand.
Chris
I just watched John's video on the part and to be honest some of the layout stuff he showed would carry over to manual setups too.So its worth watching even if you're not a CNC guy ;)
I use both Solidworks and Fusion quite a bit for both school and some personal work, and both are excellent CAD packages by themselves. However, both can do things the other cannot do at all or do very easily. I like the refined and simplicity of Solidworks (I have been using it for about 1 and a half years now), however I like all the features and the "all in one pack" that Fusion has (ive been using Fusion for about a month, mainly for CAM). I will say I have been watching a lot of Johns videos on Fusion and its becoming a lot easier to use and understand.
How would the old timers done this 100 years ago when the Vulcan was built?
Maybe an interesting project for David Richards (old steam power machine shop) to sink his teeth into?
Comparing with the older hand hole cover (@1:39): shouldn't the new one also be curved to fit the boilers curvature?
Very interesting project there.
Thank you for sharing!
I think that with enough brain power, and outside the box thinking, the answer is yes. The real question here is, could they afford to do it, and well, that's a pickle to pick at.
If the gasket step wasn't already cast into the part at the foundry there's a few methods I know of that could have been used a hundred years ago. Attachments for turning elliptical shapes on a lathe aren't that tough to make. I believe there's at least a few shown on YT for use on a wood lathe. But the basic principle is the same for turning metal elliptical shapes Milling to coordinates would take a long time but it's still possible. Manual tracer attachments for mills that follow a master pattern much like what are used on manual engraving machines were in use as well. Some specialty lathes were built to use what's called a relieving attachment that are mostly used to provide the cutting tips relief while making something like milling cutters. But with the correct pattern could do it. Even cam driven cross slides geared to the lathes headstock rotation to follow the cam shape and drive the cross slide in and out during each rotation of the part were used. Welin interrupted thread internal and external breech threads used on artillery were made that way. Really old school would have been a cold chisel and file.
For a one off part, it would be done the same way then as now. trace a line on the part, mill by hand close to the line, finish off with a file.
Would probably have taken less time that it took for John Saunders to mill it, let alone mucking around with the drawing and tool paths. Guessing Keith opted out of that route because it is interesting to make a community project, and he has better things to do than file a rabbit on cast iron.
100 years ago it was probably the apprentice with files that finished the cast part before assembly.
very cool!
The boiler we had was worn. We used over sized pear shape handhole plate. Percentage wise, what were the savings versus purchase from Oswald ?
We could not find one the correct size that was cast iron rather than just pressed steel.
Thanks
Funny to see the modern methods making antique parts. I aimgine the original would have been entirely cast thus the reason for the very thick gasket, but a machined surface will be a better seal provided the mating surface in the boiler is also true.
Hi Keith we use fusion 360 to run our CNC plasma table and it works great. Yesterday we used one of John's tips to make a part. A customer came in with a cardboard template with a lot of crazy curves about 64"×16" we took a picture and downloaded it into fusion made DFX file and cut the part and it came out great.
hey Kieth I can get you any size hand hole cover for any size boiler, new cast hand hole with a nice cast hold down. boilers made today still use hand holes and all different sizes and shapes.
I see John had uploaded a collab vid with Keith, thought best see if Keith had uploaded a new vid before watching. Now it it'll make sense when watching Johns upload
thanks for the vid very nice
Since the pattern was being made on a 3D printer, couldn't the recess for the gasket been included so it wouldn't needed to be machined? I don't think it would have been any more difficult to cast. Just a thought. Keep up the good work on the videos!
I would have thought this would have even made for a stronger part as the grain structure would flow better around edges of the cast shape when cast.
Would love to know why it was done this way instead.
That would seem to be a logical approach especially as it saves an awkward second operation.. I note that the small one looked to be made that way.
Sure, you could have cast the step in the part, but it would be a rough casting rather than a machined surface. The machined surface will seal much better against the gasket.
I am puzzled. Why was the step not put in the pattern?
Assuming these both work at the same pressures, wouldn't a larger size be thicker to withstand the increased overall pressure being exerted on the flange?
Not necessarily more pressure. The boiler is rated for 150 psi.
I enjoy every video you make, Keith. Thanks for doing them!
Why are the handholds elliptical instead of circular? Seems like more complicated geometry was chosen for a reason?
Was it just so that the clamp could be inserted while the whole thing was assembled?
The hand hole has to fit into the hole and pull up from the bottom. You cannot get a round plate into a round hole (why manhole covers are round - they cannot fall through the hole). With it being an ellipse, you can turn it 90 degrees, fish it through the hole, turn it back 90 degrees and pull it up from the bottom.
Hi Keith. Just a question, does your boiler code allow cast iron to be used for hand-hole doors? Forged steel or cast steel I can understand but cast iron would worry me some. Just curious. You do great videos, thanks.
Cast iron is used for pressure vessels of all types and sizes.
I think you are underestimating the strength and durability (even in harsh environments) of the material.
Its pretty common.
I am not underestimating the strength/durability of cast iron, but ever mindful of the possibility of hidden flaws. But obviously it complies with your boiler codes so all is good.
Could an ellipse be machined on a lathe with a relieving attachment?
i was thinking more of a wood pattern (easier to machine and including the cutout) and then casting it, thus needing very little machining?
I don't think so but I have never used a reliving attachment. The relieving attachments had cams in them to make multiple reliefs rather than an ellipse.
Would that Amish foundry make some small steam engine cylinders with the chest for a reasonable price?
Probably so. Look up Cattail Foundry on the internet. They are Amish so no web site but they do have a phone number that you can call and leave a message at - they will call you back.
Every machine shop should have a CNC nowadays.
CNC is much easier but a rotary table with a cross slide on top would be the easiest method I can think of for machining an ellipse, move the cross slide to the "imaginary pins" and then rotate and repeat for the other parabolic curve on the other side once you reach the midpoint of the part.
i was wondering why they didnt cast the step in it too,
me too,they can get precise castings, im sure the original would have been cast pretty much ready to go, or they would have had to machine an awkward shape too
Rough casting against the gasket vs a smooth machined surface.
Pretty cool, but when the locomotive was first built they probably didn't have DRO, 3D printing, nor CNC. How did they make it back in the day? And would have the gasket been a ring of copper?
why didn't you cast the step into the part?
It would still need machining to make it flat.
Landrew0 nope. comes from the factory ready to install.
Landrew0 the ones I get all the time from boiler manufactures are ready to install. no machining nessesary.
Landrew0 cast surface and all. the gaskets take up the surface imperfections.
You have to step back and think what this project is. IE restoration of an old steam locomotive. Aside the fact that it's a way to involve others in the process, and all the stuff tied to that, you have to grow yourself in to the one item mantra.
In short, it's much easier to hog out the excess to dimension (as it's already a tool path you take regardless of the step being there or not) than to go back and forth with your foundry (which he's not working) to get the perfect cast item, which, itself, is a big, big headache from part cooling to a % shrink, to the cost involved, etc.
There's many, many reasons i could put to paper, but finality dictates that it is much simpler to do it stepless.
Could you have cast a boss on the part that would have been easily held in a vice and then machined off?
Great video Keith. Just curious, this being a pressure retaining part, are there not a lot of rules and regulations concerning who manufactures these parts. I'm a boiler maker in NC. I don't know what the laws are like in Georgia, but here there is a lot of scrutiny by the powers that be to assure that these sort of things are made to ASME and National Board standards. Don't want anybody getting in trouble with the boiler inspector.
Since this is not part of the boiler itself, there is some leeway.
I watched the machining video first then this one.
Now I need to watch the 3D drawing of it.
There’s nothing wrong with watching in reverse right? 😂
Is a tormach or similar cnc machine in your future now?
Probably not for me, but I have a local friend who is looking at getting one so I may have access to one when I need it.
made for a really cool colab for sure. but I can't help but wonder why you didn't just put the recess in the mold for the casting. It certainly doesn't need to be a machined surface. None the less, I've enjoyed your video and watching the resulting work from John, who happens to be one of my personal youtube heroes.
A flat machined surface will seal up much better against the gasket than a rough casting would ever do.
It's been some time Keith, just curious how this project went with regards to machining etc. Has it been fitted to the locomotive?
Typically the hand hole cover would be cast in steel not cast iron. The "wing" is more often called a strongback. The gasket step is typically machined in to give a better finish on the gasket faces. To install the cover it is put in the hole and pulled tight with the strongback, then when the boiler is up to pressure it is re-torqued so it won't relax and start leaking when the pressure is dropped at shutdown.
Most are cast iron.
Are you sure that surface plate cover is sufficiently weighted down? :)
After watching your video I went to John's channel to watch the cnc procedure for the machining and it was very well done. What I would like to see is an experienced job shop machinist such as yourself, Keith Fenner, Adam or any of the many manual machine, job shop professionals do this job and how they would go about it in their own way doing it manually. For this one-off job it would be interesting to compare the complete programming time, set up time, material/tooling cost, procedure and outcome tolerances of the completed job start to finish from the time it comes in the door till done. Including maybe even a hack like myself that may just lay it out with scribed lines and stick it in a vice and hand cut and grind it out. Single job CNC vs. Old School. May make an interesting friendly competition. I would also be willing to donate towards all time and material involved to the competitors just as any job would be treated that came into their shop. Thanks Ed K. Cleve. Oh.
If it was a wooden part it would be pretty straight forward. So why not make a metal router? I have seen one being used with carbide bits to put round-overs on steel. It should be pretty easy I would think. It would enable more complex shapes to be machined. Just an idea
Funny optical illusion- it looked round until you spun it around. Sort of non- restoration when you CNC machine the part- I'm sure back in 1917 they simply cast the part with the step built in. Wonder why the foundry did not do it that way.
I thought it looked like Emanual's writing on the part.....Dave
It most likely was!
Why not cast the complete cover including the "step" It saves you a lot of work and the bolthead was included in the thicker cast part too.
I dont get it really. Why do you make a cad-model and then cast it and then send it to the cnc? Seems to be a waste of time and money if you could machine it on the cnc right away...
+Pacific Film Or at a minimum printed the necessary shoulder. Since a gasket will be used doesn't seem like it would need to be milled perfectly flat. The should was shown in the drawing but for reason they decided not to do it that way. I do know that RUclips has been pushing collaborations, but I'm not really a fan of those all that much. Some are better than others but it just seems to turn them into a reality style program to me.
maybe because it need to be cast iron with a bolt in the center
I think there are a lot of variable that may not be obvious to viewers, that may have contributed to the choices made in creating this part. What are the capabilities of the foundry? Was this project planned with CNC involvement from the start or was it originally going to be traditionally machined. Additional cost of CNC time vs foundry time, especially with the bolt feature. How much time were the people involved willing to donate to the project, being this is done for a museum I'm guessing this was not a project you could charge whatever you wanted. I'm sure there are more variable I have not even considered, but the idea is that it is easy to question how things are done when you don't actually have to step up and get the job done.
If it was a new application then it could be made from plate steel but this is a replacement part for a 100 year old steam locomotive and they want it made from cast iron like the original.
100 years ago the pattern would have been made out of wood just as the foundry may still have done for this part because the 3D printed plastic part was not made to account for the shrinkage factor of the cast part.
As you would expect, someone watched them in the WRONG order. I confess. :(
It was good anyway. I saw how it was machines, and the challenges of getting it done, then I saw the explanation of what is is for, and I will be watching for when it installed.
John is so full of energy and enthusiasm... he hasn't yet had a 40-year-long career to ruin him!
Oh, and asaad asad is down below trying to leach links off your website here. If this were my channel, I would delete him and ban him so fast....
Shouldn't the pattern have had the lip on it? That way the casting would have had the lip and no machining would have been needed. I am sure that that is the way that they did it back in the day.
What is a bowler? Is it part of some kind of vintage machinery?
I think he's saying boiler. As in steam boiler.
Wooster I clearly heard him say it many, many times and he clearly is saying "bowler".
He's saying boiler, his accent just makes it sound like bowler.
You obviously have difficultly understanding English. Just imagine how much trouble you would have understanding those folks from up North who have such a strong accent.....
Keith Rucker - VintageMachinery.org The English language when written has these things called letters that are used to guide how words are pronounced. Many Brits have gotten lazy over the ages and frequently don't pronounce the letter 'R' and would say things like "letta 'Aw' instead. Have you ever wondered what the letter 'i' is there for in the word boiler? It gives meaning and clarity to the spoken word so that others can know what you are saying. It is not an accent difference but a laziness in speech.
"The bowler .."??
I understood him just fine!