How We Talk About Trans Men
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- Опубликовано: 9 янв 2024
- Talking about a recent criticism.
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One other thing I'd mention, as a trans masc non-binary person, when you group trans women and non-binary people it gets the idea in some peoples heads that non-binary is women-lite.
I guess it’s presumed that those enby people being talked about will be the trans femme ones, but yeah that isn’t very clear if you don’t immediately think of that.
this also happens when you group cis women and nonbinary people, which is weirdly done in a trans exclusionary way
I swear to god, if I see another group or event for "women and nonbinary people" I'll lose my mind. Completely excludes anyone who is transmasc. Literally went to one of these events early in my trying to come out period, and there was a nonbinary masc guy who was escorted out because he had a beard and that made them "man" in the eyes of all the people present. Def scared me away from t, at least for now -_-
I have a big fat beard, and I"m clearly a bear.
I'm terrified to identify with an nb label because no one would ever believe me. My sister can say "I go by she/they now"; but if I tell people that, I get funny looks and people don't value that. I'll go by any pronouns people are comfortable using with me, but sometimes it's a burden to deal with the expectations of gender. I just don't feel like I identify with gender.
@philzeo in the same way femme enbys can exist, so can masc ones! people do always judge nonbinary people and you aren't wrong that people are even weirder about it if you present very masc or femme, but the label exists for you just as much any other nonbinary person
As a trans guy one of the things i have run into that really gets under my skin is this idea of "femmes and thems", the idea that if you are masc you are "less queer". I'm non-passing, and am often mistaken for a trans woman because people can see that I am trans and it does not occur to them that I am a trans man at all. I also didn't transition until my late 20s because of all the misinformation I saw online. I was terrified of the idea of taking testosterone and suddenly "being a man", but a lot of people seem to think that's how it works. People like to claim that trans men gain privilege by transitioning, but forget that we give up cis-passing privilege just like everyone else. I am not equal to a cis man in most peoples eyes, and to a lot of people I rank lower then a cis woman. I don't know why everyone is so quick to want to believe that transitioning is easier for us, so quick to spread misinformation about T and how "easy" it is to pass for us.
Bro, you're loved and accepted here. AND I appreciate your struggle not because I experience it (I don't), but because I'm listening. You deserve to be treated like a human being, period. I'm sorry that society failed you, when you're just as valuable as any human being. YOu deserved far better treatment, and I hope that things shift in the direction that you can just live without having to worry about people having stupid opinions and so on. Every TM I've ever met has been through hell and back just to be taken seriously, and I can't imagine having to be that strong.
Your struggle is appreciated; I just hope that someday it isn't a struggle.
Have you had trouble getting or keeping work due to being trans? I feel there is the same revulsion from a certain level of especially (women) managers who view trans masc people as 'gender traitors', or untrustworthy or troublesome. If you don't pass, you're still seen as a woman, but a dangerous one. One that can't be trusted, who instead of fighting for women, 'chose' to transition or declare nb status to escape the hellscape that is being a woman - as if trans people aren't aware that things will only get worse, not better. You find yourself pushed out of every space - men still view you as a woman, and don't trust you, and in the grand gender hierarchy, a female gender traitor is definitely below women to (some) women who've achieved power. God forbid you have they/them pronouns and haven't had surgery to change your physical attributes. People are so quick to point out that you're not gender conforming, but it's not something you're ever allowed to identify in yourself. It's so frustrating.
The correct term in widespread use now is trans-identifying female (TIF). “Transman” is falling out of use.
@@philzeo I complete agree.
God I feel this
"How we talk about trans men" We don't.
We should talk more about trans men. Love ya guys, you deserve more attention and love.
honestly sums up everything i as a transmasc was trying to say in just a few words
This is how I feel towards how intersex people are talked about. We aren't. Personally, as an intersex nonbinary peep, I'd appreciate some light shed in our corner of the community.
@@NoxBVansyn We all are heartbreakers, all of our thoughts are evil and all our good deeds are filthy rags.
Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Mark 7:21 - For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Romans 1:21 - Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
We all were:
Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Our Life Is Like Unto A Race
1 Corinthians Chapter 9
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
Why are rich and famous depressed?
lets list the reasons;
they`re trans, faking life 100% daily
their master is lucifer, the father of lies.
they have no looks, needs to fake these,
they have no talent, needs to fake these.
they are famous only a moment.
they are rich only for moment.
To have the moment on stage, wicked and sick ritual must be performed.
They are masons in masonry.
Nothing`s real, only illusions.
They have it harder , to give their soul over to CHRIST and return back HEAVEN (Luke 18:25 KJV and Mark 10:25 KJV)
true Christians are born again = new creatures in CHRIST, able to no longer sin and able to understand GOD perfectly.
We are to make a conscious choosing between GOD = CHRIST and mammon = lucifer.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
we since birth live in the devils kingdom, this earth here, it shall be created anew, but not yet, still is the church time = still time for souls to get saved and be raptured up. until we come to repentance and born again, we remain living according to the devil.
devils expectations to us are:
lie/deceive kill destroy remain wicked sinner who praise death daily.
because devil is the father of lies:
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
GOD `s expectations to us:
come to repentance
come out from BABYLON
born again
live holy
do the will of your heavenly father.
Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
1 Peter 1:16 - Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
@@user-qw3en6bz4k ?
My boyfriend is a trans man and he comes across job postings that express a preference for many minorities including trans women and nonbinary people...not trans men. He doesn't know if they'll consider his application. So trans men are left out at the cost of their livelihoods, for reasons I really can't wrap my head around. It's trying so hard to be inclusive that it wraps back around to being exclusive
Trans men are men and they don't need the same support that women and trans women do. Your boyfriend already has a big bonus for being perceived as a man. Less than cis men but still more than any man should have at the expense of women. I also don't see why male non-binary people would need extra support. They're even more privileged than trans guys.
Tl;dr: Trans men are men. They are a minority but still more privileged than discriminated and therefore, they need no extra support beyond the patriarchal rule making their lives ten times easier already.
Women are prone to falling for this shit because you are raised to be. But men always abuse that if given the chance and your boyfriend is already starting quickly if he feels that he(!) deserves to get support that is meant to help non-men in a world still ruled by men. And you will make it so much easier for him than you would for a cis guy because you don't even believe him capable of any of that because you assume that he is still to some degree empathizing through his female experiences - but if he does, that's just a phase. Our minds adapt to our present situation and as a trans woman who came out 8 years ago and finished the final surgery 5 years ago, I have little to no more empathy for guys, unless they're feminine in character. I have little respect for them in general and in my worst phase, I actually believed that the destruction of everything male was the salvation of humanity. I don't mistreat men and animals but that's on a similar level for me. They scare me, I'm glad that I can now avoid them most of the time and I always ensure that my mindset is one that if necessary enables me to kill the guy if I'm meeting one for the first time. I do know what testosteron does to men. I hated it so much that I got castrated. If a man can't control his sexual impulses, I believe that he needs to be castrated too and I consider that an act of mercy, not a punishment. If I do find a man I really like, I treat him as good as I would a woman but that's not because I was male once but albeit it.
So, to imagine that a trans guy will be more empathetic to female needs is insane. Quite on the opposite, they are much more likely to look down on women who complain about things they had to endure themselves and paid a massive price to get away from. He also has no reason to be more careful towards women when he is much more likely to get away with the samr thing as a cis guy. And right now, he is powerless still but the longer he networks with other men, the more his social standing will rise and sure, he might still be simply a decent person - but then, why is he trying as a man to claim support meant for trans women and non-binary people? Chances are that this is only the beginning and once you actually realize what's happening, you will have a lot to process...
I feel this so much!
One huge issue for me is that in "progressive" spaces there is still so much emphasis on "Women and Nonbinary People".
I AM NONBINARY but I am not a woman. I am more of a nonbinary trans guy.
They implicitly create and promote a mental image of the world where people like me dont exist and dont need help. (And I feel deeply for my masc AMAB siblings who definately get seen as "just men" because without an "acceptable" level of femininity somehow they dont get to nonbinary or a marginalized gender)
Like there are so many "Women's retreats" and "Women in STEM networking" events and if they DO manage to include anything besides implicit cis-ness it will ALWAYS be something like "for Women and Nonbinary folk", "for feminine genders", etc....
In order to recive resources ostensibly meant to help marginalized genders I have to IGNORE my own gender and let myslef be misgendered.
Trans Men are not viewed as needing help or celebration for their achievements.
In fact, if we try to celebrate people get upset we are promoting men instead of women. Or think our achievements would ebe more noteworthy if we were women.
I literally had people tell me that acknowledging how Lou Alcott and James Barry identified with manhood means """stealing""" what their achievements meant to women.
Its brain rot. Gender essentialism is all brainrot.
That's interesting. The conclusion I've come to is that they say they're inclusive so that you'll openly identify yourself - so they can give the job quietly to someone else. It could be that they don't have a problem with trans men, assuming they'll be less troublesome and a better 'fit'. Or, it could be discrimination. But a lot of the time, trans men are left out of the conversation altogether as if they don't exist, or are treated as if they're just butch lesbians who were too afraid to be gay as women. I know one thing - I find it inadvisable to even declare any kind of transness if you want a job interview.
As a Trans-guy, I can only speak from my own perspective as someone who transitioned later on in my later 20's. Trans-men, like any group within the Queer community, aren't a monolith. But, as I have not begun to pass until more recently, there are many men like me, who don't pass, won't pass and like any not straight/not cis passing individual, that holds complications for everyday living. Many trans-men, especially Queer Trans-men, deal with high levels of domestic abuse. Add other intersections such as being poc or disabled and that multiplies. The issue with a lot of Queer spaces is that they may see a cis-passing Trans-guy and assume they hold as much privilege as cis men. Without thinking of how many of us still have uteruses which, make us beholden to the same issues as cis-women and afab femmes. Without thinking of how transitioning legally which might be beneficial for our mental well-being, could complicate how healthcare institutions treat us, as there are many trans-men being denied screenings and abortions, and general access to an ogbyn. Like, there are also general trends of issues that are ignored mental health wise, once transitioning to a more masculine mode that also affects cis men and masc presenting folk. I think this also comes in part to how white washed Queer culture has become in general to the point that most well-known Trans-men are white and cis-passing. I can think of a few more poc Transwomen and Trans-Femmes than Trans-masc folks. Which, ironically for being perceived by most as the most privileged somehow, we rarely make the roster for conversation. Forgive my lack of grammar and disorganized thoughts but, I am on my phone. Still felt like I needed to express a bit.
Dipping in on that whitewashing point--something a lot of folks don't realize is that the ways society treats you differently when you transition to male are not universal. I've seen experiences of Black guys transitioning to male and having to deal with much worse and more dangerous racism because of how our racist society perceives Black men.
You expressed yourself very well. Trans guy. I left a similar post. Good job.
This comment was amazing to me. It gives voice to so much of my confusion and social distress. I have and always will wish that I could present a male visage when others can see me. I do not dislike my female body (thanks to the injection I don't have to have periods and I have often done that accidental misogyny of asking why a woman has cramps and if I can do anything.....forgetting the suffering :( )
I think I like my body. But it is not muscly enough for me. I want to be able to grow a beard. My breast get in the way all the time and annoy me (I have constant sensory overload so the idea of just being able to wear a T shirt with no "harness" would be....well, heaven. And yet, when I look in the mirror, I'm ok with me. It's what the world thinks that makes me hate myself. I want to be seen as male. Am I a man? I don't want anyone to presume anything based on femme (sic?) looks and would give my working sex organs in a second to anyone who actually wanted to give birth . I am disgusted by uterus. But I don't mind my outside looks. I quote like them. I just want people to treat me as they would a male. What do I do? Am I full of shit? I don't even know what the lived experience of a CIS male is and yet I have craved it my whole life and and self harmed when excluded from social or physical activities by sex segregation.
Even in primary school.
TLDR - I don't feel eloquent either. Maybe I am Agender. I'm learning so much language and I want to speak correctly to these crucial issues. OP moved me to write this because they hit on something deep in my heart.
LLAP
Thank you for your comment!
Honestly, I'm glad that my own views as someone who isn't transmasc are largely similar to your perspective as well.
Exactly this! There's so many issues that are very specific to us, that often get overlooked. Things pertaining to fertility, mostly. And then we get told that men should stay out of the conversation when it comes to reproductive rights, even though some men are affected by laws restricting those rights.
I think it's important to note that when talking about the idea of a "gender hierarchy" and how trans women move from a "higher" ranked gender to a lower ranked one, the same is true of trans men. People often think of it as moving "up" in the hierarchy from "woman" to "man", but in practice of the hierarchy you're moving from "cis woman" to "trans men" and trans men, most often, do not benefit from the "man" part of the patriarchy, and do suffer from the "trans" part. It's generally safer and easier to function as a cis woman than it is as a trans man, so men transitioning is still a form of moving "down" in the gender hierarchy. (The entire hierarchy and idea of "ranking" genders, of course, being societal bullshit)
Exactly, we’re seen as less than a woman if anything. Because our oppressors see women as nothing more than baby makers, the moment we’re not longer attractive or useful to men we’re seen as less than human.
This!
Here it is! Said way better than I put it! I run into people not understanding this very often.
I was looking for something along these lines, thank you! As a trans man from the middle east, I am in huge amounts of danger. Being trans is literally illegal with a death sentence, and 'corrective rape' is a HUGE thing that is often ignored. It's a danger for different REASONS - danger if you don't pass or someone finds out. Being trans is a HUGE card people can pull against you. It's kind of crazy to think about but no matter WHAT kind of trans person you are people will find a way to warp some sort of misogony. Trans men often are on the receiving end of homophobia by default, trans men are often sexualized and objectified as 'women'
Not to mention, many trans men who haven't had time on HRT or even AFTER hrt will end up passing as a 12-16 year old boy due to height and voice and just generally not having been on testosterone for as long as someone your age has been. Passing as a child is not the same as passing as a 'man', women by default already suffer infantilization, and due to situation it often ends up being something trans men still end up experiencing.
I'm reading all the comments, so many wonderful and enlightening reactions, but no one has untill now said it so clearly; the idea that transmen are moving "up" by transitioning, and transwomen "down", stems from a mindset that shouldn't be seen as from the trans, non binary, intersex world. It is way too cis\binary to be any way for us to judge each other's journeys with. And indeed, transmen get trans "privilege" instead of male privilege, as soon as they're read or need health care. Thank you for your thoughts.😁🏳️⚧️
Trans man here who can maybe offer a unique perspective. I pass, and have for years now, and am a member of a men's choir. Within that context, I am in stealth. The thing that rubs me so wrong about this whole discussion is the assumption that passing trans men experience male privilege in the same way as cis men. We do not.
I exist in stealth. This is not a privilege to me. I have to avoid conversations the men around me have because if I spoke openly, I would be outed. I cannot ever fully participate in cis-maleness. I can't talk about how in high school is was a soprano and in college I was an alto, and have to cut out huge chunks of my vocal experience. I get weird looks from how cagey I am when the past comes up. But I don't want to be out in that space as transgender. I'm already out as gay and that's only because there are cis gay men in the group so I know I'm ok. But there's another trans guy who doesn't pass well and I hear people making odd comments about pronouns in hushed tones and I know they don't think he belongs as much. It makes me feel less safe. It makes me feel I have to lie about myself. Just existing as I am - not even intentionally subverting the binary - is itself subversive to the binary. I am not ever going to have the same experience a cis man would. I have to either lie to keep myself safe, or be honest and be alienated from gendered social groups. I am ok with this to an extent, or I wouldn't have stuck with transition. But hearing other trans people sweep me under the rug like I don't count as much is always going to hurt.
Thanks for this, Jessie. Very thoughtful as always.
Thanks for including your perspective here. Experiences like yours are very important to keep in mind.
thank you so much for mentioning about how stealth is not necessarily privilege. Having to hide an aspect of yourself, whether for safety or because you have to to continue to be seen as your gender is not something that is a privilage.
@@mckennadevore8692 you’d hope the cis gays in that choir would get this, it’s literally the closet. SMH
Well said. I'm in a similar situation as you are, stealth, in a choir, and it's not like you get awarded male junk and social privilege retroactively or something. You are always aware that you're stealth and not truly fitting in, always a bit of an alien. Again, not complaining but it's not some trans sweet spot.
Bro, you are not missing out on much. I lived as a man for 49 years and most of them are assholes, especially towards women and other men they think they can dominate. Because, for them , it's all about power. If you want to fit in , punch someone out. They respect that and only that. I removed myself from their world with my transition to female and I am SOOOO glad I did. I feel for you as you weren't born with the junk or developed the killer instinct, born of endless playground fights. Either you toughen up or you will continue to suffer.
I don't get the same benefits cis men do, but the women in my life (allies and trans women) pretend I do because they think it's validating. I feel immasculated when I discuss discrimination I've faced because my kinds of experiences are always framed as a woman's issue.
I don't take it personally when women talk from their own perspective on discrimination and leave out trans men (or tack us on as an afterthought), but I must admit it feels as though I don't fit in anywhere, as though we're hardly worth any consideration.
That is so sad you feel that you don't fit in anywhere. I think I speak for most of your trans sisters when I say that we do care about you just as much as we do about each other. I can see though how it could seem like we don't because the term "trans men" isn't used very often. I'm going to stop using "trans people" so much and instead start using "trans men and women". ❤
@@emilytrott i second this. As a trans woman i stand with our brothers in the community. They have always had our backs, we need to have theirs too. We are all on the same team!
@@emilytrott Thank you for the kind words.
There's never any malice that I've noticed from within the community towards transmasc people. The main issue imo is that theres a much smaller pool of trans men willing to talk about their issues publicly. Part of that is definitely due to men feeling pressure not to talk about our feelings, to be stoic and solve our problems on our own. I'm resisting the urge to delete my original comment because I hate even admitting I struggle with issues that "belong" to women, especially when my recounting of prejudice and gender related discrimination I've faced play into the TERF narrative that I transitioned merely to escape womanhood, when in reality those experiences made it harder for me to recognize myself for who I am, I forced myself to pretend to be a woman for longer because I was ashamed to envision myself as a man who lived those experiences. No woman can subsidize the lack of trans men representation with more inclusive language, but I certainly don't want to be the one in the limelight, not in times like these when I'm just trying to get by.
@@emilytrottConsidering that some of the most transphobic things I've ever heard have been from trans women, the support really means a lot. To be fair, I know they're a very loud vocal minority, but a vocal minority telling you that you're going to be a school shooter for taking T (an actual comment I got) is hard to deal with when it's from your own "community". So ty
@@tomhomunculus As my father always said to me "Keep the faith." ❤
This is the first time I have ever heard a trans femme creator take the idea of transandrophobia seriously.
same.
hey, trans guy here- I want to preface this with the fact that I haven't seen the barbie video, so this comment is going solely off of what was said in this video and my own experiences, and also that you are creator I really respect and I'm glad you're taking this as an opportunity to grow.
However, that line “trans people generally, and transwomen and nonbinary people especially” does immediately come across as exclusionary of trans men to me. There are a few reasons, and you do a good job addressing many of them.
Here are my thoughts: The initial question I have is why do you even need to call out specific identities? Trans people by definition do challenge the binary, it does not matter if they ID as a binary gender and present rigidly that way, our existence is a breaking of the cisnormative gender binary. Adding in the extra “transwomen and nonbinary people” makes it seem like trans men somehow do that less so, and we don’t.
This also leans into another thing that you might not be aware of because I think it is a pretty specific thing to being a trans man, and that is when people, in the attempt to exclude cis men, will also exclude trans men. The phrase “women and non binary people” is thrown around all the time to achieve this. I would see it for extracurriculars at my college, for scholarships, therapy groups, zines etc etc. and always to me it said two things: you either think non binary people are just Women Lite (which obviously i don’t think you meant it that way at all), or it is just a clunky way of saying “no men allowed.”
I’m going to focus on the latter, because come on I know you know why that first one is bad. But “no men allowed”. Not only is that excluding trans men, but it just says to me that they’re more concerned with upholding boxes than dismantling them. Instead of two neat boxes there are now three. Two of them are the Safe Boxes, and the other is men, who are the obvious enemy. Trans men, by their too close relation to Evil Terrible Cis Men, are now inherent predators to that space. It assumes that because of my masculinity, I am a threat. And that I have never experienced misogyny or any other bigotry that women and non binary people go through, or that somehow it is less in severity.
I think a lot of trans men/masc people have this particular association with that phrase. It’s exhausting to hear, so when it came up in your video, I’m not surprised it got called out. Even though you did not mean it in any of these ways explicitly, this is the baggage that got drug in behind it.
Anyways, I’m sure there’s a bunch of nuance i’m missing but hopefully I got some sort of point across. I had other thoughts about the invalidation of trans men and also how the All Men Are Terrible mindset reinforces gender essentialism, but I wore myself out articulating the rest of this so I’ll spare you and end this mile long comment here. thanks if you read all that lol.
Perfectly said!! I have a lot of internalized guilt over transitioning (trans masc/man here) because of things like you described 😅
Brilliantly put. Yeah, the whole "Man Bad" thing is a problem in its own right (it's telling on oneself - that they're not trying to break down the systems at play, they're upholding it...just inverting it in their favour). But taking trans men and erasing all of the nuance of the abuse and silencing and medical neglect and misogyny that we've experienced along the way, and then declaring us "as bad as cis men" is the same message whether it's explicitly said or whether we are carefully pared out of conversations discussing those things.
Thank you for sharing this perspective! I was recently invited to a women and non-binary server on discord. After I realized what it was, I realized it made me uncomfortable, but I could not put into words exactly why. You've given a really succinct view on how exactly those communities are ultimately exclusionary and toxic.
Replying to just the "no men allowed" stuff this reminds you of and not what's in the video: It's a double-bind, too, right? Because when people setting those spaces try and be inclusive of trans men, they end up categorizing us outside of maleness and treating us just as like an extra category of woman. (All of which overall plays into the belief that men or specifically cis men are inherently dangerous and that women are inherently safe, which is very much not the case.)
@@Its_another_bird god the whole feeling it engenders like one is ~betraying women~/~embracing misogyny~/~leaving the fight~ by not being a woman is just... ugh
We as trans men and transmasc nbs are so forgotten that queer people do it unconsciously.
I remember when I was a young boy and I got convinced that the oppression I went through wasn't serious enough and trans women had worse than me and I needed to protect them and shut up about my feelings. It was actually just the queer community inputting in me this old Patriarcal idea that men should be stoic and protect women. At the same time that I suffered from horrible things from being trans, I didn't permit myself to say anything, rarely I complained about the injustices I suffered, because I didn't want to bother anyone or I didn't want to be seen as weak.
Being a trans man is a lonely existence for a lot of people. Being invisible is so lonely.
Edit: Also I feel people aren't ready to understand that transmascs and transfems aren't opposites and a lot of the oppression we went through is similar. I relate more to transfem people and their struggles than I relate to a cis man as a trans man. But people are too stuck in this black and white of masculinity and femininity being complete opposites, they aren't.
You deserve to be seen and heard. You are a human being with emotions and you deserve to feel and express them. And you are just as much a man as anyone else. As a trans woman, i think trans men and trans women should protect each other, not just one protecting the other. We need to stand up for each other.
@@NatalieE500 thank you for your reply, it's very heartwarming.
I am happy I am not the only one who thinks other trans people are almost always more relatable than cis people, but I guess it's obvious why lol
I think I have seen a lot of trans people that are trying to fit in this "women vs men" dichotomy that just doesn't help anyone, but it's also so engrained in society that I don't think I can blame them that much. However we need to talk more about it and acknowledge how much we have in common, we need desperately to protect each other.
I also hope you know you're loved and I hope you're having a great day!
@@lordarthur2165 i agree that there should be more open dialog. It should never be a competition of any kind; we should also never argue about who is more oppressed. We need to talk about how to advocate for each other and help each other.
Despite being separated by being men and women, we are all united by the blue, pink, and white ;)
Aw thank you for wishing me a great day, you are kind. i would love to keep discussing this with you if you want to
Transmasculine person here. I have three points to add to this discussion, really.
1. I think the way that we segment the trans community into three, clear-cut categories (i.e. "trans men", "trans women" and "nonbinary people") is part of the problem here. What we have done, by accident, is replace dichotomy with trichotomy, which is bigger but not better. My identity, among many, does not fit comfortably within this. I will often say to people that I am a trans man as a kind of shorthand. It works in most political situations to explain my point of view without needing to get into the minutia of it, but the reality is it's more of a loitering in masculinity kind of identity, a constantly shifting melange of gender that usually exists somewhere around an approximation of "man" but not exclusively. I believe that every experience of personal gender is necessarily unique, that there are as many genders as there are people.
The labels exist as a means of organisation, good and bad. It allows us to form wider groups to advocate for ourselves and each other but it is also inherently exclusionary. Whenever we name a thing, we know this from the philosophy of linguistics, from structuralism and post-structuralism, we are defining it negatively, by exclusion, this is how language works. Deconstruction therefore has to necessarily be a deconstruction of the categories of language. The impulse of the queer community is to name ourselves, which is a good and beautiful thing, we are saying that we are here and we exist, we speak ourselves into being, but there is a tipping point at which specificity becomes our enemy and alienates us from ourselves and each other. This can then be taken advantage of in the divide and conquer attitude of the status quo.
2. The notion that trans men and/or transmasculine people, individually or as a monolith, benefit from the patriarchy, or are, at least to some extent, spared from the broader oppression of women and femininity by it, is deeply, deeply flawed. There's a few reasons why:
Firstly, that this point of view became a mainstream talking point, at least on the subject of trans* issues, almost entirely without the consultation of transmasculine people. Which is fucking hilarious, considering that one of the significant differences in how transmasculine people experience oppression compared to transfeminine people is erasure and invisibility. There is an implicit belief that to be an "invisible" minority is a better position to be in that to be a "hyper-visible" minority and we must interrogate that belief because both are forms of violence against personhood.
Secondly, though it's an understandable extrapolation from the fact that there is entrenched misogyny within society as we currently and, mostly, historically understand it, it's an incorrect extrapolation. We arrive at this line of thought quite simply: women are more oppressed than men (disregarding intersectional oppression), trans women are women, therefore trans women are more oppressed than trans men. It's a lot more complicated than that in reality and the main reason for it is that oppression, discrimination and violence aren't dependent on your own view of your identity but the view of others. If someone punches you believing, in error, that you are a woman, you have still experienced misogyny, regardless of how wrong they were. Trans men are institutionally viewed as women and therefore are subject to institutional misogyny.
We can argue about "passing" here as much as we want, but this largely alters individual perceptions of you, not institutional ones. Where any individual sits on the "likeliness to experience violence" scale at any given time depends on the other individuals around them, not on themselves. This means that all trans people are seen in proximity to femininity and femaleness, whether we like it or not, and therefore are subject to its oppression. Trans women experience misogyny because they are women. Trans men experience misogyny because they are perceived as women.
Thirdly, the widespread notion that transmasculine people are somehow more acceptable to the patriarchy than transfeminine people is also not true. The existence of any gender nonconforming individual undermines the patriarchy, regardless of the ways in which they are nonconforming. The patriarchy does not, institutionally, delineate between what it views as crimes against gender. It is as unacceptable for a woman to be butch as it is for a man to be camp within its confines, and after all, that is how the patriarchy views us: butch women, camp men and gender criminals. All of us are to be obliterated.
3. A growing attitude on social media is that maleness/masculinity is inherently violent or otherwise "gross". I lose track of the amount of times I see this come up on tumblr and twitter dashboards, passed off usually in the form of jokes that are not actually jokes. "I'm a bisexual, which means I am attracted to all women and Pedro Pascal", "like for real though, why would you choose to date a man when women are an option", "why be a man when you could just not be?". Most of these statements don't account for the existence of transmasculine people at all, regarding maleness as an unfortunate curse afflicting approximately 50% of the human race. If you could choose though, they say, you would obviously choose femininity and femaleness, whether that's for yourself or in a partner. I have a friend that in full view of me will often say "men are just the worst, we should get rid of them" and then look at me, pause and say "I'm sorry, Jon, it's for the greater good. I will miss you." She includes me in her eradication, how thoughtful, how progressive, how validated I feel.
This is a horrible experience for a few reasons: It's terribly, terribly close to TERF logic, except that trans women are being included when they say women and trans men included when they say men. TERF logic frames maleness as a monstrosity and femaleness as incapable of wrongdoing. TERF logic frames maleness as always, always an aggressor that femaleness must be protected from. What then are you saying to transmasculine people, implicitly? That you are choosing violence and aggression. That you are the worst of all for knowing better, having every opportunity to embrace femaleness and rejecting it.
To frame masculinity as a problem is not just to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but to enact violence. Masculinity can be wonderful, incredible, beautiful, and so too can maleness. Their experience is as nuanced and varied as femininity and femaleness, as necessarily unique to each individual, and sometimes it is just as radical, especially when performed by transmasculine people. When masculinity is beautiful, is radical, is building a better world, then it is as deserving of praise as femininity when it is doing the same things.
Um, so yes. All of this is to say that to include trans men and transmasculine people only by implication when specifically naming other demographics of the trans and nonbinary community is, in summary:
- to perpetuate needless division and incorrect hierarchy
- to contribute to the wider erasure of trans men and transmasculinity
- to fail to understand the ways in which we are impacted by misogyny
- a belittling experience that tells trans men they are somehow unworthy
And I am really glad that you are acknowledging this and trying to do better at including us. It's really easy to feel detached from the queer community, especially online, as a transmasculine person at the moment. *hug*
I wish I had the brain juice to say more than "omg yes I agree 100%", but I had to stare at a lot of numbers earlier and my brain isn't braining. Thank you.
Say it louder for the people in the back! 👏
This was an amazing well-explained comment, thank you. If you have the energy, I hope you'll put this somewhere else too for more folks to digest than just the ones that scroll through this video's comments. You make a lot of great points, I appreciate you being vulnerable to share your experience here, and also your knowledge.
Trans man here. This is seriously well put and I really appreciate what you added. Couldn’t agree more.
Thank you for using your time to write this! Very informative & you Ate!
As a nonbinary trans man, I don't have a problem with anything you've said here. But I do think that the LGBTQ+ community has a huge blind spot with respect to trans men and transmasculine individuals because society hyper-focuses on trans women.
For one: invisibility is not a privilege. Being invisible as trans in society is painful for a lot of us, and it's rarely acknowledged as a defining part of our experience, because we are often (wrongly) presumed to have male privilege in all situations. It is rarely acknowledged that this privilege can be taken away at any moment, as soon as someone who is transphobic discovers that we are trans. That doesn't mean that those of us who pass don't benefit from being seen and treated as men in society. But privilege isn't necessarily always the most important aspect of our experience. For a lot of us, being read as cis-men when we are *trans* men with a *trans* consciousness can be very painful, especially when it comes from the LGBTQ+ community in the guise of validation ("You're a real man," ergo "we're going to treat you like you don't have a trans history and like you are exactly like cis men, whom we hate").
On a personal note, it's not fun being suddenly viewed as a threat by women or being excluded from spaces you've been a part of for much of your life (in my case, 30 years). I'm not saying I think I have a right to women's spaces now that I've transitioned, but it doesn't make this sudden shift in positionality any less painful, especially since I don't feel safe or welcome in men's spaces either.
Your last paragraph hits home hard. I transitioned 2 years ago at 59yo. The thing that slays me is the lost of woman spaces and the sudden exclusion from women spaces and men spaces. The other kicker is the assumption by allies and women I want to act sexually as a *fake man* when I have no desire to perform as a cis male sexually. (read between the lines). The extreme fetishization of transmen is as disgusting as transwomen's treatment, plus the cis men who see us as a way they can act out their gay urges with us and well, things can get downright dangerous.
As cis man I should probably just shut up and listen but you know we like to give our unwarranted opinions all the times. Can’t help it.
When I read “Invisibility is not a privilege”, I thought: That’s a powerful statement. Aces know something about it.
But when you get fingers pointed and put under a microscope for every little thing you do you, not to mention demonized for no reason whatsoever, you might be led to think that way. Not justifying it, but I get it, and as per usual the topic is even more nuanced than it actually seems.
Obviously not commenting on your personal experience because how could I? Just in awe of the strength people like you have.
Cheers mate.
Edit: typos
being in a community of other trans men (nonbinary people included) as a nonbinary trans man is the best thing that's ever happened to me. its infuriating to be excised from the concept of nonbinary only for it to get lumped in with "woman" as though there aren't tons of men, masc leaning, and male people who are nonbinary. nonbinary identities are not one third gender. so just being in those communities has been essential for my well being and very refreshing compared to some other parts of the queer community
@@dylanmaxey2531"straight" men using trans men to fulfill gay fantasies is something I never see talked about, and as someone who's been SA'd by these kinds of "straight men," thank you for bringing it up. I felt very alone in the experience, and its put me off from dating/sleeping with cis men as a whole
@@DavideDavini Yes, one might be led to think that way, but this is why it's so important to actually talk to people about their experience instead of just assuming we know what it is like. Being a trans man is strange in a lot of ways because, before we transition, we're often told to shut up because we're "women," and then after we transition, we're told to shut up in progressive spaces because we're men and we have male privilege, with no regard for our past or current experiences of discrimination. So when, exactly, do we get to talk? We experience discrimination just like other trans people when we are open about our trans history and identity, and we experience marginalization in a different form when we are told not to "center ourselves" in queer spaces. This latter sentiment is transphobic, because it assumes that the only trans people that exist and that our community should be protective of are trans women and nonbinary trans people who "look like women." Moreover, it misses the fact that trans men have a very important role to play in gender liberation: we have a double consciousness that allows us to speak to the gender-based hurt that both men and women experience, because we know first-hand what it is like to be treated like shit as women and we know what it is like to be treated like shit as men (e.g. criminalized, perceived as a threat, told that our emotional needs are less important than those of others, told to take up less space, etc.).
Binary trans guy here who presents fully masculinely. I find the insistence that trans men are in a separate category and are not similarly “voluntarily lowering our social status” really frustrating because it assumes that we aren’t still treated like women. When I identified as a woman before, I faced misogyny, but now that I’m a man, when I’m not passing I’m facing even MORE misogyny from transphobic people because now I’m not just seen as a woman, but either as a NOT CONVENTIONALLY ATTRACTIVE woman or as a fetish someone has. It feels like there isn’t a space that cares about people like us, even within the trans community. My struggles would be talked over and ignored by everyone when I presented as a woman, and now I experience that tenfold as a trans man. I appreciate your apology but the way you and some of your other commenters are responding to this is really disheartening and it makes a lot of channels like this not feel like a safe space for people who present like me.
Genuine question: Why are you seen as a fetish or a not conventionally attractive woman when you pass? Passing means people can't tell you're trans, so why would they see you as a woman at all, attractive or not?
@@suspended_top_spin I meant to say not passing. I keep trying to edit my comment but it’s not updating 😭 an addendum though is that other trans people seem to assume that all trans men with the right resources will always pass once they’re on hrt for long enough which just isn’t true at all.
@@pikablugia Ah, ok. Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm a binary trans man myself and I'm now at a point where I do pass most of the time if I try, but it brings new issues. Being short and still kinda feminine, I'm at the end of the male food chain and cis guys assume I'm gay and still don't really take me seriously (neither do cis women), and it also brings up the issue of suddenly getting to hear really vile transphobic shit, that isn't directed at me (though I tend to be paranoid enough to think they're only doing it, because they have a hunch and want to watch my reaction) but cis guys feel comfortable enough to spew around me.
So far I haven't noticed any gain in privileges, but a whole load of problems no one warned me about in advance.
My story as a Trans Man: I knew that I was a guy since I was 5. I had unsupportive parents my whole life, and growing into a man with no support, not even a queer community, it felt impossible. I was correctively assaulted many times. I was kept away from testosterone by medical professionals. I was forcibly assaulted by medical professionals for saying that I was a man. I could not report it - the cops would mock me, and even if they didn't, the world would. Men don't cry, I was told by my parents who mocked me for crying after they ripped my clothes off my body, the clothes they told me made me look like an ugly woman. My mom, who took me to that doctor to be assaulted. My high school barred me from using the mens and women's restrooms. I nearly lost a kidney, my kidneys were severely infected to the point of needing hospitalization, I was in severe pain for months. Of course, the hospital staff laughed at me, mocked me, misgendered me, and told me to "cut it out" when I tried to insist on who I am. My doctors made me do a few different blood tests and an mri of my brain, because to them - I couldn't possibly be trans, something had to be wrong with me for me to think this way. I finally started testosterone, and learned my endo would not allow my testosterone levels to reach the normal range for men, because he was new at this and lied to me, he had no idea what he was doing, so I spent my college years being teased for looking like a "f@g". Finally found a new doctor, who explained to me that my previous doctors were abusive. My T levels were fixed. Back when I was going to get top surgery I had a disgusting amount of people comment on my instagram that I was "too pretty / don't do that to yourself no man would want you / such a beautiful girl, what a shame" My health insurance continued changing my gender marker back to F and couldn't tell me why it would change, this discrepancy would constantly cause my insurance to deny every charge. I spent a lot of time going to the gym, I made friends with other men, although of course, I couldn't share any of my experiences or feelings with them, even after being assaulted again. A friend, he saw my scars and he asked about them, I told him, I thought he was cool. Next time we were hanging, we were drinking and chilling like we always did, and he fuckin assaulted me. Who do I tell? I have nobody. My friends, none of us talk about deep shit, the deepest we go is talking about feeling like shit after a breakup. I spent a lot of years feeling alone in my experiences. I went to a support group for trans people, but I was the only man, and it was clear my presence made them uncomfortable. I tried returning a few times, but nobody would talk to me. I drove an hour to a support group for trans men, and found that for every experience I'd had, that there was someone else in the room who experienced it too. I've worked construction, warehouse jobs, sales rep jobs, and everywhere I go there are men making shit sexist, homophobic, and transphobic jokes - and I push back, I'm a bro, they listen to me. I open conversations when I hear shit that isn't cool.
I really wish trans women and nonbinary people would speak to and listen to binary trans men, I promise we are not here to uphold the patriarchy, we want total gender equality too. Trans men are fighting the same fight, but so many of us have been forced into silence after literally being told that our voices or presence was unwanted by "our own community" please, let's come together.
oh god I almost cried reading this. I'm so sorry.
I'm a trans man and I fear of never being able to be recognized as a man, I have accepting parents but it feels like they have one foot in and one foot out when it comes to really asserting my identity, issues about physical treatments are almost always forgotten and I have to ask my parents several times not to let the less accepting side of the family misgender me.
I was the only trans kid in highschool and now after finishing school I feel lost on what to do, I feel scared of doing top surgery because i'd be "losing something I can't get back" even though my chest causes me distress everyday, I can't hide my curves and the effects of testosterone and undesirable to me
I hope I can get into a better place eventually, thanks for sharing your story♡
Christ, man. I'm proud of you for surviving all of that and still being willing to fight for other people. I hope you have more people around you to trust these days. ❤❤❤
I feel like a big oversight is the idea that transmen want to, or can pass always and as such will move up in hierarchy and not down. So when excluding trans men from the conversation you are often excluding people who are dealing with a lowering of status as well.
Since transitioning I am taken less seriously as a whole, and constantly talked down to by doctors as if I'm a silly delusional woman. Where when I was just seen as a butch women my doctors had always taken me seriously. Now as a disabled person I am struggling more than ever to have my issues taken seriously. My status so low that now even a history of 15 years of horrible chronic pain is not taken seriously, when it had been in the past, just because I realised I was a man.
I tried talking about it on a trans forum and was told to suck it up because I was a man now, as if my experiences with transphobia are lesser because of this idea that I have moved up in status. I know lots of trans men end up leaving the community because there is no support in the trans community, and we are forced out. I have stopped using trans forums because of the smug disdain any issue i have is treated with.
Not only that but trans men who do pass, continue fighting against the binary.
Thank you for speaking about it Jesse but I am glad you are thinking about it, because I think it is often an issue in the community that the issues that trans men go through are ignored. I appreciate you taking ownership and looking into the issue.
Also i think it's important to remember that trans men HAS been in the media, talking about how women are trying to flee womenhood, and also was a big part of the "fertility" debate in conservative places before roe was overturned.
Ignoring the issues of trans men and playing down the attack on them in the media is ignoring real issues.
@@teeluh1 Not to mention how much of the thrust of the anti-trans-children movement has been built around fearmongering about "girls" being tempted into transition because it's "trendy"/internalized misogyny/etc.
oh, god... you got the Man up speech? goddamn... no this is not ok! I HATED that growing up. I'm a trans woman. but a good thirty years of my life I was raised and seen as masculine. dam, I'm so sorry people treat you like that. the binary sucks.
It is rather frustrating when people, especially fellow trans folks, often attack trans men because they're now seen as "men". Like, I'm not IDing as a transman (honestly probably v. closted but that's not up for discussion right now), but I'm not even seen as a nonbinary masc person because I'm not "skinny". Like, obviously,, body issues are something every trans binary and nonbinary person deals with. But it is so fucking demoralising to be AFAB and fat, because you're never taken seriously. Like looking up "nonbinary fashion" majority of it are going to be skinny people! That and the fact the nonbinary almost always = masculine which I hate. It's similar for "transmasc fashion", they're all skinny!!!! it's just exhausting.
As an audhd trans person, I really only feel safe in trans men spaces and queer neurodivergent spaces.
trans man here, i think you made a wonderful response! often times Man is seen as "default" both in cis and some queer circles creating this disdain, this disgust with the idea altogether. "oh how dreadful. how Boring." people often forget that for trans men, our expression of manhood IS us liberating ourselves from our forced upon "default". for us, especially if you grew up in any hyper religious environment, there is this idea of divine femininity. something gifted to you, something not to be Tarnished. terfs continue this ideology by spitting venom as you mentioned, "we lost another one." , "what a shame." , "you were so pretty back then.". cannot fucking tell you in my ten years of being out how many times both cis men and women (some trans women as well) have told me this. as if i were cursed, inflicted, with a disease they had the only cure for. so to get that chance? to cut the reigns? to carve my own path? meant, and still means everything to me. im sure we can all relate to that in one way or another. in our age of individuality i think we can forget how similar our paths really are, that just because they look different, doesn't mean the same feelings don't come up. in the end, we are all fighting the same fight!
Holy fuck! all the comments are blowing my mind! but in a good way. I'm seeing things differently.
As a transmasc person myself, it's been very frustrating how the more i engage with queer spaces, especially queer-centeric video essays, the more it feels like my brothers and I are little more than an afterthought. we're a footnote even in direct discussions of transphobia or trans rights, and the general impression i get from my own community is that i'm just a particularly rare and therefore unimportant outlier in that community. I follow and binge-watch plenty of transfemme creators all the time-ContraPoints, Philosophy Tube, you, Council of Geeks, several others.... I'm only aware of ONE transmasc video essayist PERIOD (Alexander Avila), despite having looked several times, and I only found found him because of the James Somerton fiasco. even on tumblr I've only found one or two transmasc blogs that engage in The Discourse at all. if we exist in any numbers at all, it's in silence while everyone else folds us into generalized discussions about trans people in general, or actively discounts us.
I don't really blame transfemmes-or anyone, really-for this tendency to discount transmascs. Personally I think it all goes back to toxic masculinity. My own sister (who is also trans) has a very unhealthy view of masculinity overall and says she can't really wrap her head around any concept of masculinity as anything BUT toxic and implicitly harmful, because being pigeonholed into male gender norms was deeply hurtful to her growing up. As a result, whenever I express any "masculine" traits in line with my own gender identity or try to talk about my experience as a trans man, the discussion tends to... derail. I imagine most transfemmes have similarly complicated feelings around masculinity, or what it might be like to be someone who identifies with it, and therefore they're reluctant to speak about us because they don't want to speak FOR people whose experience is so different from their own? I'm honestly not sure, and can't pretend to know what's in people's hearts, but I can't blame them for not wanting to talk about people they don't represent, right?
It's just frustrating, I guess. My first response when I saw this video was "oh THANK GOD someone is actually talking about it;" I couldn't click through to watch the video fast enough. It's SO good to see someone acknowledge that blindspot and talk about ways they can try to be more inclusive of transmasc people... genuinely kinda brought me to tears, even. Thank you Jesse, this is why I love your channel so much. You actually do make an effort to make us feel seen, where nobody else ever seems to.
I know another transmasc creator, Jammidodger. There's also Sam Collins, though I haven't watched him for a while. You could probably check them out if you're looking for more transmasc creators.
@@loner844 they don't do essays, they're more low-effort (sorry but it's true) reaction videos and that sort of thing
Try Arthur Rockwell, his stuff is really good.
I only found him recently but Swolesome is a pretty good trans masc video essayist
@@toasterenthusiast8023 this guy. I fucking love swolesome because he talks about healthy masculinity and gender generally in such a real honest way. His videos helped me feel less lonely as a trans masc person.
I think the reason that specific wording felt off to many trans men was not just because of not being specifically called out in the wording, but more so because (while talking about intersectionality) it failed to acknowledge the intersection that trans men exist in.
The phrasing of that sentence implied that while all trans people are oppressed in the power dichotomy you mentioned (cis vs trans), trans women and nonbinary people are even more so (men vs women, binary vs nonbinary)
I disagree with that framing, because it assumes oppression is additive, that since "woman" is lower in the power hierarchy than "man" then "trans" + "woman" is more oppressed than "trans" + "man". That is exactly what intersectionality tries to avoid, instead saying that the experiences of identities intersecting are completely unique and cannot be separated (for example with trans men facing unique struggles in reproductive care, psychiatric care, misogyny in traditionally masculine spaces ect). I dislike the (quite popular) idea that trans men since transitioning face less social repercussions than other trans people
on top of the other comments discussing the issues trans men face, it's important to remember that trans masc folks are perceived as doing violence simply by transitioning, as transitioning takes something from men: our existence as objects of desire in the male gaze
Very insightful. ❤
So real for this one. Obviously the reasons one has for transitioning are multifaceted, but more and more I recognize getting out of the male gaze was a reason for me. Granted, the primary reason is dysphoria, but my sensitivity to the male gaze makes my dysphoria much worse.
@@nicolasnamed That makes perfect sense, and I can see why it would bother you and increase your dysphoria. It would be a constant reminder of the body you are in. I'm happy to hear you no longer have to worry about that. 🙂
😭This is literally the first time I've ever heard the word transandrophobia spoken aloud by a person who isn't me. The knee-jerk reaction that I've seen from basically everyone, is to double down and dismiss trans men who are critical and often say extremely vile things to us, including and especially from other trans people (including other transmascs), or just pretend it wasn't said at all. It's extremely normalized to shit on us within the queer community and we are shut down with a level of vitriol and malice that is often very surprising. So I have to say, I noticed this moment in your video, and it did bother me a bit, but it didn't even occur to me that I might say anything about it because I'm so used to no one ever acknowledging that they've left transmasculinity out or been reductive about it. It doesn't occur to most people that we exist, and that our experiences in life vary widely, and that once one identifies as a man they don't magically gain male privilege, many of us don't pass, plenty of us don't WANT to pass because our identities and interests would be kneecapped by trying to. Frankly it seems most people still hold bioessentialist views of trans people, and continue to apply false binaries to us, and this is the response most of the time online. I honestly don't even know what to say I'm just so shocked to see an actual good-faith response to a criticism about this. Uh...I forgive you, thanks for seeing and acknowledging us. I've been really frustrated lately in my daily life because of casual transphobia so this really means a lot to me and is very heartening.
I'm a binary trans man who is always read as male. And it's kind of telling that a lot of the comments are emphasising how not all trans men pass, not all passing transmascs are binary. It's interesting how trans-ness is so often seen in relation to its proximity to perceived womanhood - whether that's transfemmes' not being close enough to perceived womanhood, or transmascs' not being far enough from it. Like once a trans man doesn't get seen as a woman, he also doesn't get seen as trans.
A lot of leftist creators will talk about transmisogny and specifically discuss issues that impact trans women people, but only bring up trans men if the discussion is about pregnancy, periods, or related healthcare. Like the only part of us that isn't cis is our reproductive organs.
THIS.
So to start i havent completely finished the video yet, so please take this with a grain of salt, But i think this is a very very well worded response!
As a trans man I think theres a lot to be said about how we are frequently rather ignored or disavowed, and as you say the implicit bias of us being just that, invisible. Many times I find people forget that 90% of trans masculine individuals experience our lives as women until a point, and for those who either cannot, or decide not to transition they continue to experience this. Because to our transphobic society we are nothing more than 'lost women' or 'seduced by the transgender mob', in that we are too 'dense' to know what we actually are, because they perceive us still as the misogynistic ideal of woman. Many people believe the idea that because transmasculine people transition to the more dominant or higher class that they gain that privilege and dominance, and I can say with the upmost certainty: we do not.
Trans men are frequently only seen as hysterical or invisible, victims of the woke mob and the leftist brainwashing and such that the alt right love to attach to anything west of center. And so because of that misconception, I really appreciate that you've taken our concern as valid and worthy of deeper discussion! Sorry if this is really rambling, but thank you for talking about this :)
Thank you for this comment. My son is transmasc and I'm still learning how this invisibility and erasure manifests. This was helpful.
Well put! I think a lot of us transmasc are just tired of being sidelined, or people saying that we have it better than others trans people because we’re masc, or saying we do not have our unique struggles. we get alienated by /everyone/, but it hurts worse when that alienation is coming from our trans sisters.
There's also the whole "testosterone will make you ugly, repulsive, and violently, aggressively, dangerously unstable" myth that, in my own experience in my local transmasc community, makes a lot of transmen struggle with accepting and owning their masculinity as something that deserves to be celebrated or even really admitted to. It's almost like it's a disease or a dirty secret they have to apologise for because, y'know, a lot of AFABs are raised to fear and distrust men (reasonably so), and the last thing any decent person wants to do is make those around them feel uncomfortable with their presence.
Couple that with the "you inherited cis male privilege, right? so what are you whining about?" angle, when as you said, we don't - unless we have the privilege of being able to stealth it, which is not nearly as common as some seem to think - and it becomes not only discouraging to speak about transmasculine issues; it also starts to feel outright pointless.
I've seen a couple transwomen in my local community unironically tell the testosterone myth to transmen, just out in the open, like it's some poison that transmen are injecting into themselves that'll 100% make them undesireable brutish monsters. While I understand that a lot of this probably comes from their own unreconciled trauma from masculinising puberty and things they were probably told about themselves as AMAB children and throughout their transfemme journey, it just... it really upsets me that a lot of times, the transmen being told this will just kinda sit there and take it. I know there are also multiple transmen in my local community that are very quiet about abuse and SA cases due to the fear that it would either invalidate their gender or essentially prove right the idea that transmen only care about themselves and use their mythical male privilege to push others down.
This silence, along with the silence from the world in general when it comes to transmen suffering from abuse, workplace discrimination, medical malpractice, threats and violence, etc. is something I really wish was broken more often. Like... I don't get why so many fail to see that fighting in parallel solidarity for each other's rights is a thing, and that doing so doesn't in any way deplatform the needs of others within our community. There's plenty of room to talk, it's just that nobody's talking and when people do talk, very few are willing to listen.
god the part about how we are invisible is extremely accurate. i rarely every see any representation of us, and even if you walk up to a transphobe or normie they think being trans is only transwoman, and 'tomboy' (at least from my experiences from many years)
@@taymustard620same
As a trans man in a male-centric field who "passes", my experience is that of having to talk around and hide my past and self to stay in the very precarious position of security I find myself in. I also only transitioned as a young adult, and i had to fight for my place in this field as a teenage girl the way that women do, but I'm also not able as a fresh graduate to benefit from any of the women's networking groups or resources, despite having most of the same disadvantages as women in the field. But my entire position of stability in this field is predicated on being "stealth" which, for a large percentage of trans men, isn't an achievable goal. I don't want to talk about the trans male-specific discrimination (especially trans men) I've faced here because it's not relevant to this particular discussion, but in my experience trans men ALSO opt to "move down" in the gendered social hierarchy because the majority of trans men actually gain little to no social benefit from being out and transitioning (because they're not seen or treated as "real" men), and it comes at the cost of losing access to feminist equality resources and programs, especially in the employment sphere.
My first response when I saw the quote was, "Wait. She _did_ include trans men. Aren't trans men included in 'trans people?'" But, upon further consideration, I can see how the "especially" part kind of invalidates that assumption, as if trans women and nonbinary people are somehow more important than trans men.
In the larger picture, I am often annoyed with how little attention is given to trans men. I feel like, when most people say "trans people," they mean "trans women." It's similar to how the word "people" often means "white people." (And when I say "people" here, I guess I am talking about white people for the most part.) For example, when news programs want the "trans perspective," they typically bring in a trans woman (typically white) to give her views, even if the topic is dealing with nonbinary people or trans men. And it doesn't seem to occur to these trans women that maybe they aren't the person who should be commenting on this.
What's even more frustrating is, frequently, whenever I see a trans man or trans masculine person try to talk about this, they're told that they're being misogynistic, speaking over women, or that they don't believe trans women are women. I think this is unfair criticism and just further silences the voices of trans masculine people. The real problem is that _cis_ people don't believe that trans women are women, so they continue to treat trans women as men, and therefore continue to prioritize the experiences and perspectives of trans women. It's _cis_ people who are reducing the "trans" to "trans women" because _they_ are misogynistic and believe the perspectives and experiences of people they perceive as men are more important than the perspectives and experiences of people they perceive as women. Trans women aren't _asking_ to be given priority. In fact, it seems a lot them would rather not have all the attention focused on them. This attention is just thrust on them from cis society and they naturally respond to it, as most people would. BUT, also like most people, they are not thinking about who is not being included or if they really have the experience to speak on the matter.
That's not to say that trans women should not speak about trans issues when asked. Some trans women do a really good job when speaking for people in the trans community who are overlooked. But that doesn't replace hearing from and respecting the voices of those people themselves.
Thank you so much for specifically addressing the way trans men are told we are always "speaking over" trans women when we're just trying to have a voice in the first place. I spent the first 15 years of my life being silenced because I was perceived as a girl, and now that I've been out as a trans man for 13 years, I.....still spend so much of it being silenced. It's exhausting.
This is so well said, thank you.
responding to the "we lost one" comment about elliot page, which shows a kind of sexual entitlement to him, i do think that the sexualisation of trans men is researched enough in the specific ways that it manifests. many of the trans men i know are survivors of sexual abuse, before, during and after transitioning. you can also see this sexual entitlement in how people talk about top surgery as if removing breasts is a personal affront to them. the sexualisation and sexual abuse of trans men might not be as "in your face" (also because it doesn't get reported, and trans men survivors get turned away from shelters for being men so they end up not saying anything or having to lie about their identity) This topic can fold neatly into the idea of infantilisation that you mentioned, which can go deeper than simple patronising language.
there is a framing i encounter often that trans men being oppressed is collateral damage from misogyny and therefore not worthy of being looked into specifically, which feels a little reductive to me. to use an analogy, the oppression of lesbians is more than just misogyny, and considering oppression of lesbians solely from an anti-misogyny standpoint will lead to significant blind spots. the oppression faced by trans men is its own unique thing, influenced by misogyny and by transphobia and by the way society treats w hat it considers to be "deficient" men
to wrap this all up, thank you for considering that perspective. i am really happy and relieved to see that the perspective that trans men bring can be of some value
really appreciate this -- I'm going to be thinking about this framing now and I wish more people would
I have so much solidarity with transmascs, because for several years, I considered myself non binary while I was sorting gender, but still presented stereotypically male.
I didn’t have a lot of time to change presentation or really have deep introspection then, while working 60-72 hours a week at a highly male profession and caring for a disabled partner.
Amount of passive aggressive contempt I received in queer and trans circles was absurd. People would often use correct pronouns (going by they/them in that era), but they treated me with the same hatred that such people treat cis men with.
All of that evaporated as soon as I came out as a trans woman, despite changing nothing about presentation or life for several months.
Then I heard from transmasc friends how much they felt guilt about wanting to transition because of such sentiments, and fears they would lose all social support.
It’s made me fiercely defensive of transmascs and I have come to know some of the best people I have ever known in my life.
Just having this conversation is incredibly important. A lot of the time transmasc and GNC AFAB people are treated like we don’t exist. Let’s have more conversations about transmasc visibility
Thank you for this, Jessie. This is exactly how people should address having their blind spots brought to light, especially given the last 12 months of absolutely catastrophic RUclipsr implosions. You're easily one of my favourite queer creators on the platform for your very well reasoned, researched, cited and usually inclusive essays. Absolutely top notch quality, and this is a testament to that, being open to conversation - and I hope what I say following doesn't take away from my deep respect and admiration of you.
Trans man here, and I would like to expand on things a little, as I think you got close to the point, but your blind spot is still keeping it just out of reach for you.
The issue isn't a lack of specificity. No, it was explicit specificity. When you 'especially' a point and list the demographics you want to 'especially' hone in on, there is explicit specificity in the ones you leave out. You said trans people in general, and then 'especially'd trans women and non-binary people. It's explicitly separating trans men back out again after you tried to group everyone together - that's starting off on a general foot and then surgically removing people from the conversation.
It's also not the whole being excluded from the conversation that's the issue for trans men. No, we're very much included in the conversation with what's explicitly left out of or removed from the way these statements are made; in this case if you're talking about power structures, handwave trans men in and then explicitly remove us, then that plays directly into one of two things that trans men are forced to silently endure.
There is an assumption in the broader queer and trans communities that trans men are somehow chasing after or the beneficiaries of existing power structures. Same argument as TERFs make that we're just trying to 'escape womanhood' - that blind spot allows people who aren't trans men to also subconsciously classify us as this. And while some(!!!) trans men may(!!!) be able to benefit from the power structure of appearing(!!!) as a white cis male, you must remember that these people are obligated to never, ever stick a toe out of line while playing this part. The moment they do, the truth is revealed; trans men have less power by leagues than cis men and women, and they're kicked the whole way down.
The only way we can benefit from any power at all is to render ourselves completely invisible. And this is a privilege reserved for those who can clear the bar for acceptable masculinity - remembering, of course, that you can be a binary trans man and not wish to appear as a GTA NPC, and that there's a plethora of presentations trans men can adopt without being non-binary.
You're absolutely right about the second silencing we endure - the infantilisation of us. We are treated by a significant portion of several demographics as incompetent and child-like, as less capable than both cis women and cis men, as less useful and less valuable as other parts of the queer community, and if we fight back against this the opposite script is pulled, that we're just violent ape-men (how convenient).
Our explicit removal from conversations speaks to these two fallacies - either we're incompetent blobs that are there to be eye-candy for others or an accessory; or we're exactly the same as the white cis men in power by some force of magic, without any consideration of the reality that most of us endure.
All this to say: I would encourage you to reframe this issue as, rather than "not specific enough", as "too specific". When you 'especially' and narrow down, who was on the wrong side of the knife? Why are they being cut out? What assumptions have been made that energy needs to be spent on removing people from the conversation at hand? What conversation is THAT having? If the 'especially' is talking about people on the wrong side of the power dynamic in this case, why did trans men get sliced back out of that side...where do they go? They went to the other side of the divide, didn't they?
I don't expect you to be a voice for trans men; as you said, that's not your experience, and you're now thinking about ways you can have trans men speak to their experiences. This is honestly excellent and I take my hat off to you for this. Just keep an eye out for when subliminal rhetoric may have weaseled its way into your perception of trans men and our tie to manhood and the power dynamics that are involved; if it's not simple for trans women and non-binary folks, it's not simple for trans men either.
THIS. I really, really appreciate you articulating this out, because my attempts to just tldr'd into "If you can't see it already I don't know how to explain it to you" which is not helpful or respectful, especially when Jesse has so earnestly tried to understand and address it. I'm a trans dude who has stopped mid-video of Jesse and other youtubers, for basically the same reason; it's exhausting and frustrating how often that exclusion and discarding comes up. To me, it gives a vibe of 'trans women and amab nbs are the only ones experiencing this or whose voices matter', or 'trans women are the trans that matters' comes out. It's not an explicit usually or even something that I would call transandrophobia, more just... a microaggression. Like.. its fucking BARBIE. Trans masc people have unique experiences with Barbie being pushed on us as kids, nearly every trans dude I know has a story about how they played with barbies and modified them, how we felt about our gender and compared to her, and so on. It felt so shitty to realize that wasn't going to even get a passing mention. I'm not trying to say you (general you) gotta include every perspective on everything or you're a phobe, but if you're going to broaden from your own, be mindful not to disregard obvious ones. (Also if anyone knows of a video with a trans masc person's perspective on the movie, I would really appreciate a rec!)
@@HaecVirAlexander Avila's queer Marxist reading of Barbie came out before he was out as a trans man, but that was about the animated barbie movies. I wonder if he'll do something about the Barbie movie? Or maybe he has and I missed it.
@@HaecVir there’s a video on the Barbie Movie by Oakwyrm, who’s a disabled trans man who talks about the movie from a trans, disabled perspective. Highly recommend his channel!
You articulated it so perfectly, sincerely, thank you.
beautifully written
I'm about 9 minutes into the video, so I don't know if you're going to talk about this, but as a trans man, we are often accused of wanting to gain male privilege by TERFs and other transphobes.
So I think the criticism is about the way that you phrased it, which makes it seem like you're implying that's what we're doing, if that makes sense. I don't think you meant any harm, this is honestly a very common issue when most people talk about trans rights.
Trans men are often forgotten about, and if we aren't, it's implies that the transphobia we face is "not that bad" because we somehow have male privilege.
And maybe some passing trans men do, to some extent, but I know I don't pass, and it takes time to get to that point, for those who want that.
The main push back I have felt as a trans man is that I am lowering myself as well. I am both trying to make a power grab, but also mutilating myself. I am making myself unable to carry babies, I am making myself unattractive, hairy, etc.
Trans men are absolutely seen as lowering themselves. So many of us have heard "but you're such a beautiful girl." Me being trans is a tragedy and no one understands why I would destroy myself like that.
Like trans women there's this whole "Schrodinger's gender" going on it just sort of manifests in a different way. We're making grab for power when its convienent. We're mutilating our bodies when it's more convenient to do that. We're deluded women. But we are also poisoned by testosterone and predatory just like any other man, seducing poor autistic girls to be just like us.
I'm glad that you're taking this criticism and acknowledge the blind spot. Thanks Jessie.
It often seems to me, as a trans man, and as someone with a masculine non-binary partner who is AMAB, people tend to leave out masculine aligned people from their views. Just because my partner was amab and still is more masculine aligned doesn’t mean that they are not non-binary and don’t break the gender binary. And just because I identify as masculine doesn’t mean I don’t face a lot of societal misogyny and transphobia. I don’t pass well and frequently get treated as a woman, and when I do correct people I don’t suddenly gain male privilege. I’m still outside their view of what a “man” is and even if I did pass that wouldn’t make me any less trans and any less outside the expected binary
This is an incredible video. As a trans man (and, especially as a Black trans man), I see the weaknesses and blind spots of non-trans men and Black cis creators but I feel I shouldn't say anything about them because... I don't know, I feel I don't have the right? Or that it's not a big deal? But there has been a new wave of trans men speaking up for us, and you acknowledging this without ridicule or mockery of us is refreshing.
Thank you.
Love the Togata PFP
Ditto on the appreciation of the Togata pfp, he’s one of the few fictional trans guys I’ve really connected to
take it from another black trans man: you have the right to speak up and you have the right to be heard. you're just as important as anyone else in the community
I always feel weird about how us trans men and transmasc people are talked about, or not talked about. I appreciate you reflecting on this. I think I’ve become so used to us not being talked about at all that it rarely occurs to me how often we’re overlooked, which is unfortunate. I’m so used to us not being a part of the wider trans conversation, and I’m often too afraid to bring it it up because I don’t want to take up space. My opinion is that I’d really like it if creators I trust, like you, had us in your videos more often. I also want to say I'm grateful for what you’ve done for the trans community. For that I want to genuinely thank you.
Big same, honestly, if it weren't for the 2 or 3 transmasc friends i have in real life, i'd probably assume im alone in the experience. Logically i know there must be a lot of us out there in the world, but the representation sure doesnt show it
As a trans man who is also black there is a lot of dismissing of my gender and feminization. Especially because whenever people talk about trans men, it's always transmasc. Not trans man. People are quick to say trans women in, and trans women, transfemme, and non-binary and they might even mention trans masc. But trans men don't even get their own label most of the time. Not to mention the demonization of trans men who are indeed manly. I've seen so many shorts and tick tocks about trans men and they're all soft boys and how it's okay to wear skirts and stuff - which is fine. But a lot of times trans men are seen as traitors because men are viewed as dirty because of trans-misandry -- Another thing that is heavily overlooked comma As opposed to trans-misogyny.
A lot of binary and traditionally masculine trans men often don't frequent queer spaces because we feel like we're not welcome. Where are seen as traitors for some reason, dangerous sometimes - especially when it comes to black transmen like me. The idea that because we pass we don't have any discrimination is bogus. Trans men do get raped to "prove that we are woman," always seen as not my only enough and at the end of the day when we try to find a place that's supposed to accept us, are ultimately ostracized, largely ignored, and did not taken seriously. I am a black Trans man and I'm also a sexual, so I am double invisible
Your willingness to engage with constructive feedback is one of the reasons I'm subscribed to you.
100%
Hard agree. I love this about Jesse. Fair and balanced.
It is her unwillingness why I unsubscribed in the first place
And yet you're still here and still engaging.
Very same
In the 23 hours since Jessie dropped this video I have for the first time read so many comments from fellow transmen, and transmen non-binaries. Since I transitioned (passed level) 2 years ago I never felt my experience expressed by so many others. Thank you all for being so open, it really helps those of us who are more isolated and live in less friendly, small cities.
Starting off, I am transfem and want to sort of address this ‘friendly fire’ issue from my own little anecdotal experience. I’d love to hear from transmasc people in the comments if you want to add onto or share your own experiences: I remember that when I first started transitioning, I felt a sort of bitterness towards my transmasc friends that I just couldn’t place. I still loved and respected them, of course, but I felt a sort of jealousy that they, from my perspective, didn’t have to “try as hard” or “put in as much” effort to pass or to have their identity validated. For example, (and this is my own experience) if I want to be gendered correctly in public, I often feel I have to put on makeup and dress up and put a lot of effort into my appearance. But for a few of my transmasc friends who have been on T for many, many years, they can wear jeans and a sweatshirt and still be gendered correctly without as much effort. Now I understand that my transmasc friends face a lot of underlying bigotries and barriers that I haven’t faced and that I was just ignorant to, largely in terms of stuff like healthcare and public services from what they have told me. And I had a sort of lightbulb moment where I realized that I was projecting my own frustrations about the expectations placed on me for presenting femininely onto my transmasc friends, inadvertently invalidating them in my own mind. And that felt really, really shitty to come to terms with. Nowadays, I can wear whatever I like without my intense, early transition anxieties about passing, but it still has to be addressed in my mind sometimes that it’s actually societal expectations and norms that I’m frustrated with, not my transmasc friends, because I feel like that’s where a wrong turn is sometimes taken and where community infighting begins. But, that’s just my own personal experience. Please, share your own, it’s probably just as, if not more interesting than my personal story.
I think you might benefit from hearing a transmasc perspective you maybe haven't seen before: I am a transmasc guy who never passed before hormones (and got top surgery and a change of name/legal status years before starting them), and now after hormones has maybe a 50% pass rate. And in my experience, it can be literally impossible to present as masc in such a way that people even process "not a cis woman", much less "a guy", regardless of hair, clothing, pronoun pins, /anything/. A lot of the transfemme toolkit is absent--makeup has to be minimal and disguised as not being makeup. (It's contours or nothing.) Hair has a limited selection of styles, basically none of which allow for obscuring or altering the appearance of facial structure. Clothing has to be very simple and with minimal structure, which minimizes shaping options. And even when clothing isn't accentuating feminine body traits, there's an absurd amount of slight variations that are culturally treated as femme.
One of the few good things about how difficult it is to even present male if one's body doesn't masculinize in certain ways is that it forced me early on to stop even /trying/ to pass. There's no point in holding back on my pretty-boy bullshit when fully masculinizing every iota of my appearance still results in misgendering. Fortunately for me specifically, I do like being androgynous, but that's not the case for everyone.
@@Sky-bx9mn Thank you for your perspective! Indeed, this is a point of view I’m not too well versed in. While I like to think I have a diverse group of friends, a lot of my transmasc friends tend to be quite passable and so I haven’t really gotten quite the peek into the nuances about having to present purposefully as masculine, as I haven’t really had the motive to ask. But, maybe I might now, given what I know. But, that’s one of the major flaws of being human, we only really experience the world from our perspective. And this lack of understanding and difficulty to empathize with others breeds the sort of unconscious biases, bigotries, and other issues that often crop up in trans spaces that create slip-ups like the one I had. Perhaps a wider willingness to share experiences openly and actively empathize with others experiences in spaces like these would help with mitigating incidents like these? But I’m sure others have had similar ideas already. Communication is key within community after all.
I appreciate your interest in hearing transmasc perspectives! Like the other commenter, I am also in a weird limbo of sometimes-passing sometimes-not. I've been on T for a bit over 4 years and just recently completed a legal name change. I have darker body hair, some facial hair, and wear masculine clothing. However, I also don't bind, have long hair, paint my nails, and have a higher pitched voice (T did give me a lower register, but I don't tend to speak in it). This is how I want to present myself, and I don't really want any other forms of medical transition. My passing in day-to-day life is pretty hit or miss, but I pretty much never pass when it comes to communication over the phone, especially before I changed my legal name. This can result in awkward and difficult situations when I first communicate with someone over the phone and then come in and talk to them in person. I go to college in the rural midwest, and so I have to be careful in some situations. One of the few places I use my lower register is when I'm in a men's restroom and have to say "excuse me" or something. Probably the scariest moment I've had recently was when I was leaving the men's room in a Walmart and a man on his way into the bathroom saw me leaving the bathroom and turned around to go to the other bathroom assuming that I'd left the women's restroom, but then realized that I'd actually left the men's restroom and stared at me for a bit. I laughed it off with my friends in the moment, but I realized later that I could've been in a very dangerous situation if that man had decided to do anything more than stare.
Another point of difficulty for trans men that I pointed out in a different comment is that accessing testosterone is a lot harder than accessing estrogen due to it being a controlled substance in most countries. I personally need a new prescription every time I refill, which often results in delayed refills and having to stretch things. I once went a whole month without my T because of those issues. And it's not like you can stockpile it either, because they only give you just enough to get through to your next prescription.
There's also the whole rabbithole of access to gynecological care, which I'm gonna have to deal with soon because I'm due for my first pap smear! Yay! Trans men are very much affected by reproductive rights issues, which is sometimes overlooked within the community because there's an assumption (not an entirely incorrect one) that trans men by and large don't want to get pregnant and carry a child, and thus it isn't something that needs addressing. But even if, say, 5% of trans men have an interest in carrying a child, that's still hundreds of thousands of people, if not more. I've heard horror stories of trans men being misgendered for hours on end in the delivery room, being condesended to and mistreated during checkups, and cases where ob/gyn care won't be covered by insurance due to the "M" marker.
I'll close this out by saying that I appreciate your desire to learn more, and I hope that my massive wall of text doesn't scare you off!
I'm a non-passing transman who, for medical reasons, might never be able to physically transition. There is no world in which I am ever gendered correctly, unless with my close friends (and even they accidentally mess up pretty frequently). I came out at around the same time a good friend did, only she was coming out as a trans-woman. I remember how incredibly jealous I felt that she could put on a skirt, some makeup, and stuff a bra and go out into the world as a woman. At least people would know what pronouns she wanted people to address her by! I have back issues and can’t bind, so I can’t just take of my breasts the way she could out on a padded bra. I couldn’t hide my curves, even under masculine clothes. I couldn’t masculanise with make-up the way she could feminise. I couldn’t pitch my voice low the way she could pitch hers high.
And that doesn’t mean that she had it easier, or didn’t face just as many issues as I did. I was just jealous that she could at least present as her gender and people would notice. I couldn’t and still can’t. So honestly, there really is no passing privilege for many, many trans folks, regardless of what gender they’re born as or transitioning to. It takes years of hormones and surgery, and even then it’s not guaranteed. And that’s only for the trans folks who have access to a physical transition.
We’ve all got it rough, in different ways. We’re all in this battle together.
@@Sky-bx9mnI transitioned in middle school and I still had enough of a female puberty that I never passed as a man. My face is too soft and feminine and even growing facial hair I STILL got called she. It's literally nor possible for me to pass. To the degree that I was relieved that I realized I was nonbinary because I could stop trying and failing to be seen as a man, and learn to love the face that had caused me so much pain and made me the target of bigotry.
I've...tried to talk about this stuff on videos before, and have been talking about it and observing/experiencing it online and irl for many years now, but after awhile you kinda just...feel kinda hopeless.
Like, from my perspective as a black non-binary trans man, as far as many queer and trans spaces go...people like me dont exist. We're not explicitly like, banned or anything, but our voices are often actively suppressed or excluded in conversations, often to severe degrees, and the risk of complete alienation from what community we have is enough to cause a terrible chilling effect.
Like, to address the point on the inclusion of trans men in a generalized way with All trans people, i think the reason many trans mascs feel hurt by that is because..its the only way we are talked about at all, yknow? We can't assume we're included, because more often than not we explicilty aren't.
Its not even about asking to be centered, its largely about asking to just not be excluded. I rarely seen trans mascs talked to for like..anything about trans identity, or queerness, or in the case of black people, the black trans experience. I think the only trans masculine person i've seen in any video that wasnt on his own channel actually included was Finn? And hes great, dont get me wrong! But he is...i would say, not the most representative of even most white trans mascs, let alone bipoc trans mascs.
I think you do the best you can, and you do a LOT. This isn't just a you problem, this is a community problem. I feel like there's some kind of...anxiety or fear some people feel when it comes to trans-masculinity, mostly because it is so against what even most queer and trans people think of when we think of the experience of men. Obviously this leads into the issues of race and class and masculinity as a whole, but even just in the trans context it seems to be something a lot of people just do not know how to nor seem particularly thrilled to engage with.
Social media is obviously the worst of the worst when it comes to this, but idk, go find any trans masc who tries to talk about their life, their own oppression or experiences, publicly. Look at the responses. That can really help put it into perspective, at least a little bit. It doesnt go anywhere near showcasing what we deal with offline, but maybe it'll give an idea? Idk. I'm glad you're talking about this and willing to hear feedback on this. I hope people stay open to talking about this, as its something thats has been a problem for a very very long time.
love you jessie. Barbie essay was one of my favorite video essays of all time. I didn't notice the moment of phrasing when I watched it, but hearing it again, I agree that the phrasing wasn't the best. I am not critiquing or attacking you here, just continuing the conversation.
most of the trans men I know aren't able to transition fully. Testosterone is a controlled substance in the US, and surgery or binding is often necessary to pass at all. in my observation- without having done any research so take it with a grain of salt- trans men aren't as "visibly" attacked only because they are lumped in with women, and attacks against them are almost always categorized automatically as "misogynist." if the victim's queerness is acknowledged at all, it's called lesbian. this is how people can say ace and bi people arent as visibly oppressed as gay people because the ace and bi people are lumped in with gays. the repeated erasure and invisibility of trans men is a feature, not a bug, of patriarchal oppression. and it lets people turn around and say "transandrobia/transmisandry isn't real"
while the attack is definitely part of the racist/misogynist/colonialist/etc oppression, this kind of erasure is uniquely a trans masculine experience. there is at least one comment here like "I can't take anyone who uses the words 'androphobia' or 'misandry' seriously". Even there, that commenter entirely removes the "trans" prefix to the words, removing the context and our transness. what other nouns can we use then? what words can we use? why is the entire point of the critique null and void because of a portion of a word used? (I know you're not saying this but I just wanted to address it)
Last point, when we talk about stealth and passing trans men, I feel like we should really ask ourselves why not talk about the stealth and passing community as a whole. passing trans women- especially thin, rich, white trans women who pass- can often uphold the patriarchy as much as passing trans men at those same intersections.
you and the creators you highlight (especially Swolesome) really inspire me. thank you for making your channel a space where I feel both safe talking about all this and like my voice is heard and valued. I'm so glad you made this video so that this conversation can happen.
as a nonbinary trans guy, i think that my main problem with that statement is not so much one of "being forgotten", so much as, specifying what can umbrella all trans people except trans men in that statement, it feels like a deliberate exclusion. You say that you highlighted nonbinary people and trans women because there are very specific ways ("more explicit") in which they break the binary, but there are very specific AND EXPLICIT ways in which trans men break the binary too: In the same way that someone transitioning from a man to a woman is seen as "stepping down" a privilege ladder, people transitioning from woman to man are seen as stepping down a "purity" ladder.
when terfs talk about trans men, you'll see them talk about us "mutilating" ourselves with top surgery. People will lament that t makes us look "ugly". Yeah, hrt makes are voices shift, which it doesn't for women, but that shift is often very noticeable, and will get us called "sissies", even if we pass. But we take ownership, and *joy* of these things. For some of us, it's pretty much impossible to pass even as a trans man, let alone a cis man - people will assume I'm a woman, because binding will not hide my boobs, just make them look smaller, and because my face looks too "feminine".
The thing is, even though you are clearly taking steps to try and solve the problem, you are still being quite dismissive in this video when you're talking about how women and nonbinary people specifically break the binary, and why you didn't include trans men. We don't just "tag along" to breaking the boundaries in the same way nonbinary people and trans women are - we break it in our own unique ways, just as nonbinary people and trans women do.
Also, it is worth noting that not all transandrophobia comes from viewing us as women. A lot of it comes from viewing us as men, in the same way that trans women will face both traditional mysoginy *and* discrimination from people seeing them as men. The way that we get called disgusting, or even the way that butches are treated, comes specifically from our relationship to *manhood*. In the same way that we don't just face all the same transphobia as trans women and as nonbinary people, we don't face the same mysoginy as cis or trans women.
I understand that this is a genuine effort at an apology and I think it's very good that you're doing it, but I think you're still missing a lot of what it is that people are criticising. I think that it's a good thing that you mention you still need to address your biases, because I think they're still appearing a lot in this specific video. Thank you for working on this and apologising, but I think there is still a lot of work left to do.
that SAID the fact that you are even addressing this in the first place, and you are deliberately trying to get past your defensiveness on the topic is very good, and I realise that trans women are often held to much higher standards for their speech than most other groups (including trans men). I realise I'm very critical in this comment, but I'm only able to be this critical because you have thoughtfully and kindly responded to criticism, and I wanted to thank you for that, especially if you took the time to read through this entire novel of a comment.
everything you've said in this comment is so well put and true. as a fellow nb trans guy, thank you! i really hope jessie sees this
As someone who has a nephew who is a trans man, I do appreciate this because I do feel like there is a lot of erasure by omission that happens even in leftist spaces where the plight of transmen is kind of just ignored or pretend it isn't as bad, whether or not that's true. By even making this video you're helping to correct that oversight, and hope that if nothing else it will help make you more sensitive to the issues in the future, and that in turn will help spread the awareness of this issue. There are a lot of problems that face men, trans or otherwise, that do get overlooked or down played by the left a lot as well. The whole argument that Thought Slime got into where he basically says "I don't care about men", and that whole debacle did help highlight that I think.
That video of a trans man talking about how people are less emotionally available for, or care less about the emotional well being of men in general not the least of which. Pointing out how when he was still presenting as a woman people were more caring about when they cried, and hugged them, supported them more readily. Once they transitioned, people cared less about them, told them to suck it up, crossed the street to avoid them because 'men are scary', and how that was emotionally devastating for them.
@@taymustard620Awesome, more power to you. 👍
For a lot of people trans men receiving any male privilege is as disruptive to the binary as trans women giving it up
this is a great point I never consciously elaborated, but it makes a lot of sense actually. Cis men are scared of losing (in the broadest sense possible) to women and they see us as out of line women, therefore threatening
This is part of the problem. Listen to how you talk about men. "Male privilege", the privilege to work to death and only be loved for the ability to effectively earn monetary value and manual labor and then be demonized by everyone for it? Some privilege.
This resonates with me, as someone whose gender expression can often be pragmatic. If I can code switch between masc and femme to alter someone's perception of me, that's upsetting to people who aren't aware of their gender based conditioning and who react unconsiously to their implicit, essentialist biases.
that line did bother me and i’m glad you addressed it, because as a trans man i think we have like 1 video essayist thats done well and often our experiences are overlooked. finding trans male perspectives in a professional context like this is difficult and ive spent a lot of time excusing the way we consider trans men within power hierarchies because no one really hears from trans men. i think you’re the first person ive seen address this without discrediting the words we use or trying to argue over who “has it worse”. i haven’t finished the video but this is what i have to say after the first few minutes.
it’s odd to see the criticism is about seeing trans men as really trans. what bothered me was the “especially trans women and enby people” line, the especially there. ive heard way too often that while i face basic transphobia, i dont suffer for masculinity or manhood so it is just transphobia where everyone else was able to have intersections between their gender identity as well as being transgender, if that makes sense. i do think a lot of this in trans places is implicit, coming from a lack of transmasc voices and experiences analyzing our experiences as marginalized men. seeing you address it, though, does break the invisibility you accidentally perpetuated and seeing that you’re working against that makes me hopeful that more people will lead by your example. im hugely looking forward to your next video!!!!
this is also the first time ive heard a popular video essayist use the word transandrophobia to give it legitimacy and focus on our experiences directly, i can’t tell you how much of a relief that is
Thank you for this response. Honestly, it made me, as a trans man, breath a huge sigh of relief about you- that any "transandrophobia" is completely unintentional, that when you say "trans people" you are in fact thinking of trans men and trans mascs as well. Because a lot of people don't believe transandrophobia is a real thing. That there's transphobia, and there's transmisogyny, but that there's no transphobia specific to trans men, that any examples we bring up are just "misdirected misogyny or transmisogyny". When it's thinking all trans men are confused little girls, that's misdirected misogyny. When it's thinking "that man is too feminine", it's misdirected homophobia or transmisogyny.
You haven't ever shown that that's what you think, don't get me wrong, but my experience is that that is the underlying position most people have, whether they realise it or not. I know you had a guest on a while back who did say something that bothered me, "Ultimately, what these people care about is preserving this twisted, over-idealized, singular vision of what it means to be a man. And I say that, not to say that trans men get no crap, they do, but there's a reason trans women are the focus, and it's misogyny. Because-while trans men have been roped into all of this to some degree, virtually every conversation that happens around clamping down on trans rights focuses on trans women. Always. Always first and foremost. Trans men are a side note at most, and they're generally treated as confused." which just made it seem like being treated as confused meant any difference materially. People are still stopped from transitioning. People think we're mentally ill and confused. That doesn't mean they don't also think we have nefarious motives. People thinks trans women are mentally ill, confused men; the mental illness is assumed to be linked with being predatory.
When that Abigail Shrier book "Irreversible Damage" came out about how the trans agenda is coming to steal uteruses out of fertile teenage girls, the idea on the left was that the harmful part of that was that it pushed the idea of queer people being groomers. Which is really only half the equation; the other half being all the young trans mascs harmed. People seemed to come away with the assumption, on both sides, that the victims here were young girls; the left said "there are no girls being harmed here, this is a made up issue" when what we should've said is "we need to protect trans kids".
>>People seemed to come away with the assumption, on both sides, that the victims here were young girls; the left said "there are no girls being harmed here, this is a made up issue" when what we should've said is "we need to protect trans kids".
THANK YOU, I've been criticizing this for years!
other people have left more insightful comments that already cover my feelings pretty well, but this reminded me of a personal experience that i thought might be interesting to share -- when i started university, there were two separate student-led organisations. one was the gay association, which catered towards gay men, and the other was the feminist association, which catered towards women or non-men in general. the feminist association had a special room and programs that interested me, but i obviously didn't feel comfortable going there given i am a transmasculine person. even though i hadn't started my transition yet, this space was clearly not for me and i would have felt like i was intruding.
so i went to the gay association, and i quickly realised how cis-focused they were. they'd get jokingly grossed out by vaginas, their events revolved staunchly around cis gay culture, and i was one of only two transmasc people there (and the only non-passing one). i really, really did not fit in. over time it got better, i started working there, me and the other transmasc person set up monthly events for trans students.
then my cis gay coworker told me that he "had been all for trans people being part of this group" but that "maybe that was a mistake". i became a source of drama because i wanted to officially make our trans visitors part of our program and event plans. the feminist association rebranded to the queerfeminist association, but still didn't do a lot of trans organising, so all of that fell to us -- the association that ostensibly wasn't even about trans issues at all.
that's sort of the issue with trans men/transmasc people and intersectionality, especially if you're queer. you don't fit in cishet spaces, you don't fit in cis-dominated gay spaces. the only place you could really feel accepted would be one focused on trans people. so if there's blind spots in these spaces (from people who aren't transmasc, even from transmasc individuals themselves who may have internalised shame or insecurities because they often hear people imply that they have it easier than the rest of the trans community, so they start repeating those talking points and minimising their own struggles) then what space is there really left for us?
that's not to say that you, jessie, or anyone else is intentionally excluding trans men. i'm struggling to find the right words to express the sentiment, but i guess... if the community you feel most connected to is "for trans people generally, and for trans women and nonbinary people specifically" (to take the quote wildly out of context, sorry, i hope you understand what i'm trying to say!) then you might end up feeling isolated anyway. i just think that's a shame, especially for young trans men who are struggling to find their identity.
anyway, thank you for this! i appreciate the thought and care you approach your videos with, and from the looks of the comment section people agree with me :)
You just summed up my own experience. I feel really seen by your comment ;_; I've been trying to navigate the queer community as a trans man and find myself excluded by the way the queer community has been categorized, both socially and even in queer programming/organizations. I even greatly relate regarding my own observations interacting with other transmasc people, who minimize their struggles and have internalized shame, as you said. I'm a trans man who loves being trans and tries to push back against cisnormativity as much as I can, so these interactions often leave me feeling even more lonely. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and finding the words I've been struggling to articulate for a long time.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts here! I am AFAB nonbinary, and I often feel like there is a relative privilege I carry because expressing gender nonconfirmity while being perceived as a "woman" (even for trans-friendly spaces, I get cast in the less-threatening "feminine" role by others) seems safer (literally, from harrassment, hate crimes, etc) than gender nonconformity for someone who is perceived as "man".
That is, in the trans and nonbinary spaces I'm in, there's often a more vocal defense for AFAB NB's, and AMAB NB's kind of just are assumed to be "trans enough" that they get the support of pro-trans spaces. But then in those spaces I don't see as much vocal support for masculine NB's. I can only imagine that it is hard to be transmasc or AMAB nonbinary in trans spaces as well, due to how being nonbinary isn't always considered/welcomed/etc in trans spaces that lean towards having lots of people who focus more on the very-masc or very-fem part of gender expression, and being nonbinary in those spaces can feel alienating also.
And countering the feeling of AFAB NB's feeling 'not trans enough' is welcome, I just feel like we should include all of the struggles different NB folks encounter from the subtle and intersection ways that sexism and general bigotry layer onto each person. This is rambly, I'm not sure if my musing is making sense here. 😅
During the original airing of Gilligan's Island (stick with me, it's relevant) the cast of characters was listed in the theme song. At first, the last of these lyrics was "and the rest," later it was changed to "the Professor and Mary-Anne". The "rest" was obvious from the getgo, but the actors weren't getting equal treatment despite equal time in the show.
When you already spend a great deal of time getting sidelined, as we trans mascs do with the bathroom debate - and other issues you mentioned - it can get frustrating to be consistently omitted. Trans men aren't often the focus, despite dealing with our own unique issues such as we are also being forced out of the women's bathrooms, while being AFAB. It can feel demeaning to be placed in an unnamed capacity when it's fairly obvious youre the only one in the group.
In short, that moment in the video made some of us feel like Alan in the film, there for the tokenism alone.
Thank you for being open to understanding.
Honestly this is a great analogy. I'd also add that for those who are named out, the fact that "the rest" is inclusive may seem obvious, but to those who are just grouped in as "the rest" without individual acknowledgement, it feels like the creation of a hierarchy. There are those who are significant enough to be mentioned individually, and there are "the rest", who exist but aren't as important.
Transmasc here, i appreciate this explanation, and i appreciate you acknowledging that there we all have blind spots!
Many people have said this better than me, but I think the confusion comes from the “especially trans women and non-binary.” because transmasc break the binary JUST as much as our fellow trans people. we face the exact same struggles, but we’re commonly seen as ‘different’ than other trans people just because we identify as masc. i guess i just don’t see why we don’t deserve the same emphasis.
I always thought it must be a bizarre experience to be a trans man in this world. Depending on the talking point, people either talk about them like they’re lost children who don’t know what they’re doing, or lump them in with cis men and act like they’re all aggressive and misogynistic. But no one openly talks about them. It’s so weird
i appreciate you acknowledging that trans men can and do still suffer from misogyny. there are so many people who flip out when they realize that misogyny is not simply "being mean to women". it's a bias and it can be enacted against women and men; trans, cis, or otherwise.
- a trans dude who doesn't pass
Transmasc nonbinary perspective here: I'm still having trouble understanding why trans men are not worth emphasizing to the same degree as trans women and nonbinary people when it comes to breaking the gender binary. My nonbinary identity sometimes brings about additional challenges that binary trans people dont have to navigate (like getting cis people to accept they/them pronoun use), but a lot of binary transgressive acts and experiences I share with many trans men (e.g. advocating for myself when people belittled/questioned my trans identity, or navigating obgyn healthcare resources as someone who "looks like a man")
To my understanding it was to point out the kind of "voluntary lowering of you social standing". All trans people by coming out go from an assumed cis into a ("more oppressed") trans identity, but then on top of that trans women go from a perceived man into a ("more oppressed") woman, same thing with nonbinary people (binary identity into a nonbinary one).
The reason I dislike this framing is because it is often a transphobic argument, that trans men transition in order to gain social standing or to escape misogyny. I think it's a very simplified view that fails to acknowledge intersectionality. Trans men are not just "trans" + "man" and therefore "less oppressed" than "trans"+ "woman", they experience their own unique struggles and oppression that comes from that intersection (like the ones you pointed out) which shouldn't be compared against the unique struggles of trans women and enbys
@@Egg_thing I never think that trans men are purposefully transitioning for the status. But I sure as heck know they do recieve the privilage of 'male-ness' wether they want it or not. Of course there are unique struggles that come from the intersection no one is denying that, in the trans community at least. But I think its more disengeuous, and I think this is where a lot of the hurt comes from, to say that trans men don't recieve the benefits of being viewed as men.
I don't mean this lightly and I understand how it sounds but sometimes it can come off as "not all men"ish when thats very specifically the social sphere that has been inherited - again - intentionally or not.
@@RoraxPlays Some trans men receive benefits from being viewed as men. Some do not, especially trans men who don't pass or who don't conform to masculine gender norms. Some receive a mixture of benefits and harms. Some groups of trans men, like Black men, suffer worse discrimination once they begin to pass as men. So, no, it's not disingenuous, and you need to re-examine what you think you sure as heck know.
@@RoraxPlaysI get how it can /sound/ like "not all men", but that's begging the question
to argue that trans men largely benefit from male privilege assumes that enough of a majority of trans men pass consistently enough to be, and are living stealth.
even trans men who are able to be stealth in any given environment are afforded any privileges on an extremely conditional basis.
to assume otherwise in either case is a huge leap.
@@RoraxPlayswe don’t though. I’ve been out for seven years and on testosterone for a year and I do not pass as male to the vast majority of people nor do I necessarily want to. It’s disingenuous to talk about the issues trans women face when they don’t pass and then turn around and assume that trans men are always able to pass. We’re not. Very few of us end up being able to go stealth if that’s even something we want. I don’t have male privilege because I am not perceived as male despite being on testosterone and it’s bullshit that people keep ignoring the dangers of existing as a trans man because they think we have some inherent privilege. Trans men are equally if not more so in danger of SA and domestic violence as other trans people and there’s less resources for us because we’re hyper invisible and people think like you. Listen to the people affected by this for once in your life.
As a trans non-binary woman (aka, she/they) I had to learn about trans men the hard way - by making an ass of myself repeatedly. Trans masculine erasure is real, and it pisses me off no end now that I know better.
as a trans man, i’m glad you’ve improved. making mistakes is an important part of the learning process
I'm nb (AFAB) and I put my foot in my mouth so much when I first came out because I just straight up didn't know shit. I actually assumed that trans men would automatically get subscribed to toxic masculinity because hello, they're men. I bet there are trans men who do think they have to be awful people to get ahead, but yeah it took a lot of me looking stupid to figure stuff out.
i guess what it boils down to is that transmasc people are often included in the wider discussion on trans topics without looking at our specific challenges and experiences. i personally am not bothered that much by that sentence/paragraph but i do think that the reflection you did on it was important. thanks for taking the time!
As a trans man, I want to say thank you so much for all your efforts to be inclusive towards a multitude of experience. This is why you are my favorite youtuber to talk about trans issues. It also means a lot to see someone with such a large platform use the term 'transandrophobia'. Trans masc people have been fighting for years just to have the language to talk about our own experiences. Anytime we've found a word like 'transmysandry', 'transandrophobia', or 'antitransmasculinity' there's been vitriolic pushback, often in the form of online harassment and abuse. Usually these critics frame the issue as just being about the terminology, demanding that we find a more acceptable name for our experiences before we can discuss them. However, the fact that this keeps happening makes it clear that really these people just don't want us talking at all. Invisibility isn't something that just passively happens to us; it is violently enforced.
As a non-binary trans man, I'm often treated with less respect and as if I'm way younger than I actually am. I'm 5'4", so pretty short for a guy, and before I started my medical transition I was mistaken for a child when I was actually in my 20s. Even now that I have a full beard and am almost 30, I still get treated like I'm younger and not as smart as other men.
I am a lot more stealth than others, and I'm thankful for that, but even as someone who "passes" I still get a lot of shit from dudes who think I'm way younger than them. I think the biggest issue for trans men is they're often ignored because of how little we're mentioned in the media, or anywhere at all. I still to this day know cis folk who think the "only way" to be trans is to be a trans woman.
Even if we are mentioned, it's usually a small footnote rather than getting the equal recognition we should get, and I can see why people were frustrated by this.
I will say though, I never thought you meant anything malicious by including trans men in that way as it isn't a part of your own experience. Hell, I didn't realize I was trans until nearly adulthood because of how little people talked about trans guys. I found out by seeing people on tumblr, and then of course all the wonderful trans men I follow on youtube now. I also of course love to follow my trans sisters and non-binary siblings as I think learning about all perspectives is the best way to be better as a harmonious community. We're all only human, and learning and growing comes with that. Thank you for opening this discussion.
Thanks for this video, Jessie. I'm glad to see you address this. This is an issue I've noticed and not just with your content (I would say its very much a minor issue with your content and I've never considered it to be malicious). It's nice to see a creator engage with criticism.
That being said, and please feel free to ignore this if I'm misconstruing your point about the gender binary, and apologies if I am, but I don't think binary trans men challenge the gender binary less than binary trans women. For people who vehemently defend the gender binary, trans men are perceived as women who are destroying womanhood's most important features: being sexually attractive to straight men and being fertile. They are seen as women stepping out of line and trying to seize power that they have no right to.
I feel like this does challenge the gender binary quite a bit.
Again, apologies if I'm way off base on what you were trying to say
I love the way you describe how trans men break the binary it's so true
All of this! When people claim its more accepted for an afab person to break the norm I just think back to when I had to fight to be allowed to wear trousers at school. That was a HUGE deal in my school, I was the only "girl" to be allowed to wear the boys uniform and even then I was forced to wear a dress in summer. It might not be quite as bad these days but ignoring that struggle leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The online conversation is focused entirely on transfemme people, to the point that even when i see videos or posts about transmasc experiences they almost always include a lengthy explanation of the sorts of opression transfemmes experience like it's an apology for not talking about them, but i very rarely see that the other way around. As a bigender trans man, i find that I've been made to feel guilty for taking up space in conversations about trans issues. Even with cis coworkers or acquaintances who are generally decent allies, I've found that when I've offhandedly mentioned my ex who is transfemme, they've had more questions and voiced more support for her than they do for me. It's dehumanizing really, and incredibly isolating, it feels like since I'm transmasc I'm somehow not worthy of peoples time and support.
We are rarely mentioned and if we are it's to say that we're evil and privileged for being/choosing to be men... even though society doesn't accept us either?? People don't see us that way-- and most definitely systems of power don't treat us as cis men. We are so marginalized and face a fuckton of oppression but because we are (trans) men, people just villainize, erase, or forget about us. It is hurtful, even when unintentional. I think it's easy to read your message in a bad way specifically because we are always excluded.
I started saying this sometime after hearing from so many cis ppl and non trans men that we are "privileged" to be men: every gender EXCEPT CIS MAN is marginalized. Trans men will never be treated the same as cis men. Just cause we share the label "man" doesn't mean society, systems, or people treat us that way.
Thank you for considering us.
Trans man here. Funnily, I was having a conversation about this with my trans woman friend like 18 hours ago.
I think that trans men are often left out because of what they are. I DO NOT mean this as an intentional thing, that cis allies and trans fems do this to us, but that it is almost baked into what we are.
Think about this:
Trans women are seen as people who were imposed with masculinity and became more feminine to align with their internal view of themselves. What does that mean? Well, trans fems usually align themselves with feminine qualities and behaviours. So ask yourself: What is a woman? If you ask someone from the 50s, they'd probably say 'A doll. A girl. Pretty and motherly and tender.' If you ask someone more modern, they'd say 'Confident, sexy, outgoing, self-assured.'
If those traits are seen as feminine traits, what would you say is masculine? Is it the opposite of those traits?
In that case, masculine would mean someone who is 'A man. A wall. Not pretty, so kinda ugly? Not tender, so outwardly unfeeling? Insecure. Doesn't care for their looks. Stifled emotionally.'
Of course, feminine and masculine are not binary and they are not opposites, so those traits are not just what manhood is.
But, it begs the question, what is masc?
Well, toxic masculine traits are all based on insecurity. They lash out because they are insecure. They don't confront their emotions because they are insecure about seeming feminine. They bully others into needing to be more masculine because secure feminity is so hair-raising to them. They are misogynists because they feel the need to keep the binary and put women down because the idea of confident women who are fine with being as they are is baffling and unknown and terrifying to them.
Healthy masculinity is seen as quiet confidence. Brotherhood. Self assurance to stand alone. Be allies with people who are put down by the anti-feminine power struggle of society.
So, with this idea of what Masc people are seen as, what are trans mascs?
Trans mascs are people who either have masculine healthy traits of Silent Confidence and not needing to discuss themselves because they are self assured, fighting for everyone else's rights as fems because they see themselves as in the men's side of the power struggle, or they have unhealthy toxic traits of complete insecurity at being surrounded by femininity.
No matter how a trans man defines himself, he is not going to stand up for himself, because he either believes he doesn't need to because women are treated worse, or he thinks he is disgustingly feminine and feels wrong existing as is. He doesn't talk about his feelings because being open and vocal about your feelings is seen as a feminine thing.
The reality is that trans men do not have support. Toxic men don't see them as men. Feminine people don't understand them. They are often insecure and self-deprecating, or feeling that their priorities are souly about holding up people around them who need it. They support others but they won't ask for support back because men are supposed to be self assured. They need other people to support them because they won't ask for support. The shortcomings of being transmasc is that you don't know how to be seen. Men know each other and see each other a certain way, but if they don't see trans men as men, we are left out of the silent brotherhood comraderie. Women often say "All men are trash" in front of us because in their minds we don't count as men. We are posers to toxic men and don't count to terfs. Allies often overlook us because they think we want to be left alone as 'Silent Confidence' or the facade of makes us seem like we don't need it.
It's a rough life feeling like no one is on your side.
Thank you for making this Jessie SERIOUSLY.
When I was a freshly out trans man about 18, my attitude towards trans women was "they are the figureheads of the trans community - i.e. I have to let them speak over me and minimize myself because something something buzzfeed feminism men=bad" & I worshiped them uncritically... yet slowly realized that a lot of trans femmes seemed to either not acknowledge trans men at all or even seemed to actively dislike/look down on us.
I read someone's nonsense reasoning for it years back that went something like "we can't help but make each other dysphoric/offend each other (like when a trans femme calls testosterone 'poison' or a trans masc calls breasts 'tumors')" so I developed this weird complex that had me minimizing myself around trans women afraid to put them down just by existing, thinking that having dysphoria made me some kind of screwed up misogynist. (I call it the "gender/sex essentialism feedback loop of misery" lmao)
It's only in recent years that I've started to really open up about my own trans experience, lifting up my own voice alongside others, finding more common ground than uncommon & get rid of the gender essentialism that only hurts us all in the end.
Hearing you refer to that slip as "blind spot" is really eye-opening and healing for me because I fully understand that many times when I've been disappointed by other trans people, it was more often a consequence of trans men's erasure & not necessarily active disdain. I'm keen to sniff out my own blind spots, like my contribution to sensationalizing trans women/treating them as a monolith in the past & letting isolated slights from random people embitter me.
Death to all infighting! Our venn diagram of experience is a circle - we are ONE.The existence of people who transcend sex and gender + the complex intricacies of intersectionality at play obscure all perceived separation between us in the end.
i don't think i can properly explain how much i appreciate seeing a real, genuine apology from a creator. thank you jessie
17:20 you're right about transandrophobia often being based on misogyny, but there's an element sprinkled throughout where the "rejection" or "mutilation" of femininity is viewed with disgust, seen as dangerous or corrupting, or frivolous and for attention (which is also mostly misogyny). But tbh most of the casual transandrophobia I experience is from the older women i work with who hold binary beliefs about gender but are fairly liberal, who live hetero lifestyles, and therefore think men are just worse. Because the men in their lives are boomers who live in rural farmcountry in a majority christian area. So they associate manhood with weaponized incompetence, dirty fingernails, being a creep and getting away with it, being emotionally unavailable, working yourself to death doing dangerous manual labor with sketchy safety protection if any, suffering in silence forever, etc. And they think, gee golly, why would you ever want to do that. So they implicitly and explicitly express this constantly. One expressed being glad i was "coming back" when i said i was planning on eventually carrying a child, and looked really confused when i corrected her. It's not malice, just dismissal, and its hard to really address most of the time.
Just wanted to say thank you for using the word transandrophobia without being difficult about it. There's just so much discourse whenever trans men and transmasculine people try to come up with a word for the specific issues and oppression we face. The erasure and invisibility of trans men is real.
Thank you for engaging with this. Because tone is hard to read in text, I want to say up front that I see you are approaching this in good faith, and while I am going to be expressing frustrations, my intentions are likewise to contribute to the dialogue in good faith.
I will admit, that this part in the Barbie video itself didn’t bother me, partly because I didn’t catch it. But the time you spent explaining yourself in this video, why you de-emphasized us in contrast to trans women and nonbinary folks as challenging the power hierarchy of gender, that did hurt. It hurt quite a bit.
Now, you and I… we don’t have a relationship. I watch your videos and am usually too shy to comment. You don’t know me. There was no possible way you could have been like “F-ck James’ masculinity specifically.”
So it would be wacky bullsh-t to claim any of this as a personal slight. But I am going to share my personal experience to hopefully illustrate how this added to the background radiation I feel trying to navigate the world as a trans man who doesn’t pass.
When I say I don’t pass, I don’t mean in the physical sense; my dress and hair are stereotypically masculine, my boobs are gone. My fellow queers can *visibly* mark me as a man (or at least butch/masculine). But it’s a different story when it comes to gender expression through my *personality.*
I have constant insecurity that I am not seen as a “real man” even within my queer community, because for me, my masculinity is expressed through stereotypically “feminine” traits. I feel most like a man when I am nurturing and gentle with the people around me, when I am operating in community and not in a power structure. My gender envy characters are those like Dr. McCoy (emotional, in a caregiving role) and Dexter Jettster (gentle, community-focused).
These masculine traits of mine would be considered radical and revolutionary! As a challenge to the power hierarchy of gender!
…if I was cis.
Think of the praise stories like Steven Universe gets, where boy characters are shown as crying and soft and caring. Of how these stories challenge toxic masculinity. How these stories challenge gender norms.
But because I am not cis, my masculine expression of those same traits are instead seen as nothing more than a biological byproduct of my vagina. The very thing that defines my manhood is instead seen as evidence of my womanhood. Something that would be seen in a cis man as a challenge to the power hierarchy of gender, is seen in me as adherence to it.
So to hear you explain how you felt that “yes, trans men challenge the power hierarchy, but not as notably as trans women or as nonbinary folks,” even at the end of the video, was adding to the chorus that my masculinity does not actually count as masculinity, much less a radical masculinity.
Again, I am one trans man. This is one trans man’s gender expression and experience. But I do hope my experience helps illuminate maybe a side you didn’t see before. I hope this helps illustrate that trans men DO challenge the power hierarchy to the same degree that you mentioned trans women and nonbinary women doing, even in your clarifications.
And I want to reiterate that I see you approaching this in good faith, and I appreciate that. You do so much good work; it’s f-cking amazing. (and I look forward to the upcoming video!)
You have put into words something I have felt deeply. Thank you.
dude that part in the middle speaks to me so much! the thing about feeling masculinity the strongest by breaking it is exactly how i feel! i wish more people would talk about it, because it hurts so much to know tht no matter how much i pass, my feminine masculinity will never be seen as real masculinity
dude you’re making me cry ;-; i total get your statement about your most masculine behaviors being seen as feminine. for me, my masculinity is wrapped around the idea of a “dad” (ah, must be the biological clock ticking) or the idea of “elegance” (can’t escape my womanly wiles 🙄). and your point about cis men doing the same shit and being praised like they’ve reinvented the wheel is so on point. harry styles can wear a skirt and get a standing ovation, but if i do it people ask why i didn’t shave my legs. sometimes i wish i could be feminine in the same way people encourage cis men to be, and i’m glad i’m not alone
i agree with the tumblr op that, as a trans man, it's often frustrating to watch a lot of trans-femme/nb video essayists because, yeah, our perspectives are almost always diminished or glossed over
the frustrating thing about being a trans man/trans-masc is that, until we are multiple years into transition and are jacked with a beard, cis people will still constantly misgender us or consider us butchy women, but the queer community will see us as men and thus consider us less oppressed because of it -- and it's validating, sure! but god is it not accurate
and even if we are multiple years into our transition, many of us aren't ever going to be bearded and jacked; we present anywhere we want on the gender spectrum, just like anyone else
we suffer under many power structures that are only considered issues to anyone because cis women are affected and to bring up that this affects us too is either outing ourselves or even just seen as admitting to cis people we aren't "real men", so we don't
we're all very used to being the ignored transgenders when it comes to intercommunity discussion
First, I'm really glad to see you respond to criticism so well. On the topic of trans women being seen as lowering themselves to the lesser gender, there is a false assumption that I see repeated quite commonly and that I think is one of the key elements of why transandrophobia is a blind spot for many people. While men are seen as the higher gender, trans men's transition isn't commonly seen as any sort of ascension to it. Instead it is viewed as a different form of lowering oneself. Transmasc transition is often framed as destructive and self-mutilation, with an emphasis on a perceived loss of attractiveness and fertility. The same rhetoric applies to some extent to gnc cis women and afab non-binary people, while society makes some room for masculinity in women, this is only accepted within the boundaries of conventional attractiveness. Also, while it's true that trans men are rarely talked about explicitly by transphobes, discussions about us are instead centered around "young vulnerable girls destroying their beautiful bodies", which is then one of the driving forces behind bans on medical transition and fearmongering about young people transitioning (just look at how popular irreversible damage is). Essentially, there is sort of an erasure of trans men in the public eye, but that doesn't mean that trans men are just ignored by transphobes, trans men are simply not seen as trans men by transphobes. So there may be some trans men who are cis-passing and stealth and can thus attain some sort of higher level in the power hierarchy in some situations, but that is not representative of how transmasculinity is generally viewed.
I actually had this criticism of your video regarding masculinity -- along with it being very US-centric and treating USAmerican masculinity as kind of the end-all-be-all of masculinity, I also remember being put off and ranting to my friend about how the implication to me seemed to be that people (transmascs and masc trans people) *actively pursuing* masculinity isn't breaking the system and isn't policed and punished the way transfemme and nonbinary people are. I didn't think it came from a bad place, but it was very frustrating to once again run into "queer" being conflated with "feminine" -- or even worse, "some kind of a woman". Queer men, both cis and trans, get treated as less men, and also less queer, being treated as failed men and failed women just as interchangeably as trans women, but because of transmasc erasure and the spectre of the perfectly passing misogynist trans man, often transmascs get pushed out of conversations. I remember specifically saying "It's not sexist if being feminine doesn't personally work for you".
Which is that assumption that you don't need to make it explicit in action, lmao. The invisibility of trans men is perpetuated through everyone assuming "well since they're men they're going to be centered in every other conversation" and then people actively working off *that* basis to have conversations that leave absolutely no room for transmascs and trans men to be involved in as anything but props, because if they *do* try to engage, they will get told they're 'centering themselves unnecessarily'. That their experiences can be adequately spoken to by other, 'more marginalised' trans people. Which is especially galling with the history of trans activists downplaying hostility towards transmascs. Almost every time trans hysteria blooms that centers on 'young girls', people discuss the way this parallels the predator panic towards trans women, and almost never discuss how it's also denying CAFAB trans people the agency to identify, tacitly assuming the conversation *is* about girls, rather than people who might be trans boys.
So, like, yeah this is welcome. This has been a blind spot I've felt you've had for a long time, but I'm so used to transmascs being talked over so much because of the assumption that trans men get *unilaterally* treated like men rather than being subject to the exact same weaponisation of misogyny as trans women. I've always written it off as 'well, not even Jesse can be perfect', but I truly did not expect *anyone* at the level of... sheer fucking overwhelming attention you get, lmao, to pay attention to the criticisms being made of you. I figured, "she probably treats the trans men in her life right, and that's gonna have to be enough" -- because there's a real problem of radical feminism -inspired hatred and fear of masculinity that, even when trans-inclusive, still harms queer men.
I wanted to take a moment and thank you for using the term "transandrophobia" without any fuss, since people absolutely LOVE tearing anyone who uses it, especially trans men, apart on far too many different platforms. It's the one time a term we use to describe our specific intersectionality between misogyny, androphobia and transphobia has been able to have any sort of staying power (before this was an attempt at using transmisandry which was somehow even MORE disliked) and I truly hope that you take a moment to talk about it in your video about transmasculine people.
It's frankly a little upsetting that I was so shocked and happy that you talked about transandrophobia using our word so casually, because I'm not used to hearing it used as the thing it was designed to be- a descriptor. Videos like this are why I adore your content and I'm definitely looking forward to your upcoming one. From a trans guy, thank you for examining your biases and hearing us out. We're stronger together than we are apart
To be fair a lot of people have the kind of instant OH LAWD SOMEONE THINKS MEN ARE MARGINALIZED ON THE BASIS OF GENDER ALONE reaction, but I do think transandrophobia is the better term because it frames the root issue as the idea that what is seen as female becoming masculine is like. Bad? and corruptive and how it connects to transmisogyny where femininity is seen as a resource that is being corrupted or wasted when combined with anything seen as masculine
I had a negative gut reaction to the term "transandrophobia" and "transmisandry" mostly because my experience of the word "misandry" is exclusively anti-feminist cis men saying that feminists are anti-men.
So I hope you can understand me not liking the term initially.
Not to say that those two things are at all related, just that I understand not liking the term at first because "misandry" is largely bullshit.
I'm really happy you called out the way that misogyny intersects with transandrophobia. I'm a trans man and I've been having these intracommunity convos for years with a variety of trans people, and I often feel like this fact is not well received. It's often framed as an insidious or accidental way of de-legitimizing other trans people, whether that's other trans men (by "calling them women") or trans women (by arguing that if trans men face misogyny you're somehow arguing trans women don't, which isn't how that works). I find this baffling, because queer people have spoken for decades about how cis gay men, especially feminine cis gay men, also deal with misogyny. Homophobia against queer men is also misogynistic in nature, but no one would argue that acknowledging that fact means that cis women and lesbians don't face misogyny as well.
I transitioned as an adult, and to say I didn't face misogyny as a teen girl is ahistorical. To call that misogyny "misdirected" is presumptuous and insulting. My direct experiences with misogyny inform the kind of man I am today. But even barring that, you only need to look at the language around trans men that transphobes use to see the misogyny. During this recent bout of panic about trans medicine, I'm disgusted by the way conservatives objectify young trans men by reducing them to their breasts. The way that transphobes talk about top surgery is incredibly dehumanizing, and it reminds me of experiences I read from breast cancer survivors. For both groups, their breasts are prioritized above their health, well-being, and life. If that's not misogyny, I don't know what is.
Trans men are infantilized by transphobes, like you said, when they make us out to be confused, easily manipulated women. But the other side of this coin (something I faced as well when transitioning) was the idea that transitioning will make you ugly, and for a woman, giving up your beauty is akin to a tragedy. When I chopped my hair off at 16, I had adult men tell me I "chopped my beauty away." We are told that our beauty is our worth, and by transitioning, we are selfishly throwing away our worth. I can't tell you how many trans men I've spoken to who said that, when they started transitioning, they were met with, "why would you do that? You're so pretty." Again, our bodies are prioritized above our health and happiness.
I wish the wider trans community would allow space to discuss these experiences, and not knee-jerk accuse us of de-legitimizing other trans people while doing it. Part of our invisibility is we're shut down discussing our experiences. We're seen as "privileged trans people" when there's no such thing. My male privilege can be revoked at any time once I'm outed. I am constantly in spaces like locker rooms, bathrooms, and gyms with men. Believe me, many transphobic cis men don't care how well you pass once they figure out you're trans. But part of this invisibility also stems from misogyny! Historical accounts of trans men are rewritten as "tom boys", erased entirely, or impossible to document because of historically low literacy rates among AFAB people. How many trans men were sent to asylums? How many trans men were unable to keep diaries? How many trans men were reclassified as masculine women after their deaths? We will never know. So now, when we try to document our experiences in the present, being met by indifference and erasure really hurts.
I would like to add that there's a tendency to reductively divide nonbinary people into femme vs masc, and I appreciate that your wording attempts to avoid that. However it instead implies that nonbinary people as a whole appear femme and have more in common with trans women than trans men.
But I understand that you were coming at it from a certain perspective and I don't blame you for that. I super appreciate that you were willing to listen to trans men's perspectives as well. It really means a lot to see a popular creator showing support for us when some parts of the queer community hold a lot of hate. Thank you!!
I appreciate your openness and accountability. I'm non-binary (genderflluid to be precise) and my son is transmasc (he/they.) I have noticed that lack of visibility too, the biases and power dynamics. It's a teaching moment that aided me check in on any biases that remain. The western gender binary is so hardwired in the systems; it's like chalk soaking in ink. There's a *lot* to deconstruct and change. It's so easy to have blind spots. It's what we do afterwards that is telling. Thank you for your candor, willingness to change and moving to action.
This discussion makes me think a lot about some of my very first encounters with the trans community, and how a lot of them were super toxic because they were run by, quite literally, man-hating trans lesbians who especially hated trans men.
There is a toxic subset of the queer community, particularly among the femme-leaning trans community, that specifically goes out of their way to exclude trans men, and I do think that this is something we should try to purge since it's very toxic, and just destroys community solidarity.
Like, there are a lot of specific things at the intersection of being a trans-masc person, and there are a lot of stories that I think are worth telling. Like, for example, HRT is so much harder to access if you need testosterone, since it's a controlled substance in most countries. A lot of trans women in particular tend to paint this picture that it's "so much easier" for trans-masc people when this is oversimplifying in the most charitable reading.
I'm glad you're openly talking about this.
Yesss im in the US with healthcare and I haven't been able to get my T many times. I started transitioning 3 years ago and have had health insurance the whole time and been a legal adult, but I've only been on T for 20 months total in that time. I know healthcare always sucks, but none of my other meds, including opiods, have been so difficult and opaque on how to get consistently. They also wont increase your dose until you've been on your current dose at least a month, and then getting approval to go up in perscription takes more than a month.... Very frustrating.
I think trans men are seen as like "too morally good" to be lumped in with (cis)men when discussing gendered opression, but then when discussing trans power relations, its treated as a given that those same trans men are privledged by their masculinity.
Ughhh... Its so weird to have a Good Gender(TM) and Bad Gender(TM) but in so many ways I feel like ppls brains say man=violent, trans men = not full men, so trans men aren't part of the Man Problem(TM)! And they only say the last part out loud thinking its a compliment, if trans men are real men (we are) people have to radically reframe their idea of a man. When people are holding onto man = bad, they have to exclude trans men from the discussions because we 'complicate things' for them.
Im a big fan of gessie, but there is definetly a trend of this. Im optimistic for changes in future discussions now and im glad someone was able to word it so well!
One of my (least) favorites is how much harder it can be to access services because trans women are seen as default, and how many services will advertise themselves as for trans people when they actually mean solely trans women. (Ex. voice therapy, electrolysis).
There's also this very misogynistic idea that trans men are just little girls who don't know what's good for them, which can also make it more difficult to access any health care, let alone trans health care.
Oh don't even get me started on refills of hormones. I've been on T for a little over four years and I still have issues getting my refills every damn time. I'd also note that because testosterone is a controlled substance, you can't easily do DIY HRT in the same way that you can with estrogen because access is so much harder and you can absolutely get in trouble for having it without a prescription. Also, testosterone and other medical transition procedures for trans men are by and large the main focus of transphobes when it comes to blocking medical transition access for minors. They talk about "young girls being masculinized" or "13 year old girls having their breasts cut off" in a way that is very much targeted at trans men specifically. It also intersects with misogyny, of course, especially in the focus on testosterone making people infertile. This definitely isn't the case; T is not birth control, and there are cases of trans men who have been on T for years or even decades being able to conceive and carry their own biological children after going off T, sometimes with the help of fertility treatments.
@@northstarjakobs yeah there's such a big focus on our fertility, as if all afab people are just supposed to be baby factories for cis men. And those of us who have kids are also shamed for that, with people saying we must not really be men if we decided to make use of the parts we were born with. I love my kids and the fact that I gave birth to them, I think it's amazing that I was able to do that, but it's not seen that way by society. I even have people say to me (to my face!!) that it must be really difficult for my kids to have lost their mom 🙃
I reject this idea that trans men are not rejecting the binary by transitioning. We do lower ourselves in the gender hierarchy when we transition. Most of us don't go from being perceived as women to being perceived as men, we go from being perceived as women to being perceived as 'other.' I wish people acknowledged non-passing trans masculine people more.
As a trans guy (who is very gay and leans slightly nb), I really appreciate you taking the time to think about and address this.
Trans men are heavily under represented, infantilized and disrespected just about everywhere we go, we are rarely portrayed as desireable or beautiful and even more rarely as complex and respectable human beings.
We are also not a monolith. There are toxically masculine, truscum trans guys; there are hyperfem, nonbinary leaning and gay trans guys; and there is everything in between.
The discrimination that trans men, non binary folks, and trans women face does differ in many ways and often people act as though trans men have it comparatively easy but that is not a universal truth. Ultimately I think it's extremely important that we all educate ourselves on the unique challenges that all trans people face and fight the beast that is transphobia together.
Thank you for acknowledging this. I've never seen a transfemme creator willing to talk about this. There seems to be a misconception in the online transfemme community that it's somehow easy to be ftm/ftx and we don't face transphobia. The truth is so much more complicated than that. I only recently started passing as male consistently after 5 years of hormones and I still don't feel safe or accepted by cis men because I don't pass as a *straight* man. I experience some male privelige in moments when people take me for cishet and am treated with suspicion and disgust when they don't. Where I live androgyny is not acceptable. I don't think it's possible to truly possess male privilege unless you get the most aesthetically cis conforming surgeries availible and then sever ties to the community. Of course most of us can't and don't want to do that. Part of why its so upsetting to be dismissed by other trans people is that by being openly or visibly trans we expose ourselves to misogyny, transphobia, and homophobia in unique ways. We don't go up in the hierarchy by being *trans* men, we are pushed out of it. I hope that was somewhat coherent
Tldr: I'm a trans man and I'm very much one of those that gets omitted even from transmasc conversations. I don't have any "male privilege" at all, I don't even get read as a queer "woman" most of the time.
I wasn't one of the lucky ones who "always knew" they were trans, I only figured it out in my mid-teens (which, I admit, is still early compared to many) but I'm in my 20s now and I still haven't transitioned.
At first my family was supportive, but then my mom turned around one day and said "actually I don't believe you" and now they just treat me like I'm an edgy-fashioned, avant-garde and a eccentric young woman. To be honest sometimes I wish that were it! I've always been feminine and as a kid I was jealous of one of my boy friends who would wear my dresses and wear princess with me, because I wanted to be that kind of boy, too! I loved the androgynous men with long hair and delicate faces from the media I consumed at the time, and I always felt conflicted by people telling me I looked "just like my dad" and how androgynous my face was. I grew up wishing I would be a sophisticated woman with curves and nice makeup, but I always reckoned with my masculine side. I was very attracted to narratives of men crossdressing as beautiful women, and for a long time my dream was being a theater actor so I could take on male roles and have people just… accept it and play along.
Now I understand my gender better, I express femininely (I have pink, long hair and don't want to have any surgery, just hrt) but I often find myself wishing I were just a butch lesbian (I don't like women lmao) or just the fashionable, eccentric woman everyone thinks of me as because it would be easier than it currently is.
I've had people question how I can consider myself a "femboy" and what the point of transitioning is, I found out my lesbian aunt is a terf because she tried to convince me to "just stay a lesbian" years ago (haven't talked to her since) it's been a rough few years where I've wished I didn't know so early on that I'm trans, it's been nearly ten years since and I've finally decided screw it, I'm gonna go on T, change my name and see how long it takes my family to notice the changes lol (and then university)
I never learned to do makeup or style my hair lol I still think I look better (and somehow more androgynous) with medium length hair than short cropped, and, between you and I? I only know how to style my hair by copying anime guys with long hair lolol That's the kind of gender euphoria I live for!
I also didn't realize for a long time that I'm a gay man, because I was uncomfortable with the idea of dating men. I didn't realize it was because I hate the idea of being someone's "girlfriend" but obviously, right now I'm not welcomed in any irl gay spaces because I don't pass 🙃 (also hello, I'm old enough to have grown up bombarded by "Gay trans men are just teenager girls / fujoshi fetishizing gay men!" Don't think I wasn't hurt by that narrative. I avoided anime during my teens because of that and it turns out I do want their gender after all 😤)
I'm still worried by a lot of stuff (making women feel unsafe weighs a lot on me, but dude I'm not getting younger, I'm already approaching twink death! I gotta move!) but I know I'll regret playing my own understudy more than finally stepping on stage, so to speak ;)
Trans men fuck with the cis binary just as much as trans women do! Not to speak of non-binary people, of course.
Anyway sorry for the rant and thank you to anyone who might read this, maybe
Hi Jessie thank you so much for making this video. Unlike the OP of that post on tumblr I do still watch trans video essays, but I have to admit every time I come across a comment about or excluding trans men+transmascs I have a little "hm. well. okay" moment. It's never a big deal, it's never coming from a malicious place but it's frequently factually wrong or framed in a way that I disagree with.
I really admire and respect the way you try to build community by listening to and learning from criticism. Overall, the issue in that video is very small but yes, I agree that you do have a blind spot when it comes to trans men and transmascs. The thing is this is a blind spot that we ALL have in the trans community. Transmasculine voices are underrepresented not just on youtube but on every platform I have ever been on.
Even at the end when you speak about the issues trans men face... frankly you are missing a lot! And I don't blame you for that, I would say the same thing about trans men+transmascs who speak on these topics because fundamentally the discourse in trans spaces is that we don't really need to listen to trans men+transmascs. Trans women+transfems assume that there is nothing "extra" they need to learn about trans men+transmascs because they already know about being trans so they can just speak on that excluding all the transmisogyny... and trans men+transmascs assume that because they are transmasc themselves they do not need to listen to and learn from other trans men! But everything I know about the specifics of transandrophobia I have learned from other transmascs, because that is how community works. In this video you have shown that you do not think like that and I'm really grateful to you for promoting the idea that our voices are valuable.
Going back to the second half of the video and what I feel you are missing: Trans men are specifically targeted and attacked in ways similar to trans women (for example ROGD thing was targeted at trans men) but we don't talk about it as transandrophobic the way we talk about 'bathroom bills' (for example) as transmisogynistic. I like the way you allude to how cis women try to co-opt and take ownership of transmasculine bodies, but if I were talking about this issue, I would link it to the high instances of SA of trans men and afab nonbinary ppl. We often forget that transmasculine people are fetishized and sexualised too. I would also bring in Rowling's targeting of specifically disabled and autistic trans men and transmasculine people. Overall, I think that a lot of people blame the way we erase trans men on the idea that attacks on them are less explicit - but I'm not sure I agree! I'm not saying you were making that argument; it is just that I think we are missing a lot of transandrophobia by only talking about invisibility and infantilization.
One more thing. If you were to ask me about how trans men "especially" break power hierarchies: I might talk about how people react when trans men try to use resources for women (such as women's shelters and women's bathrooms) out of fear of cis men. Trans men are mocked online for misgendering themselves, but they do this for survival. And women's shelters have been known to force men to detransition or refuse shelter to them. People think that trans men gain power by transitioning but they don't, and any power they do gain is only conditional. We see the impact of this when we look at men who are abused in women's shelters and women's prisons. This is one example of the way trans men "especially" disrupt traditional power hierarchies.
ngl, when I saw the title, I assumed it was going to be about a completely different situation. But then, I also kind of haven't gotten to your Barbie criticism video as of yet, but yeah. To sum, there was a trans masc nb person who was talking about the unique danger for trans men of forced detransition due to assault possibly leading to pregnancy. Enter a well known serial abuser, WinterFox (now known as Benjaumin, iirc), a cis woman, who inserted herself into the conversation and accused the person of making it seem that trans men have it worse than trans women who are Definitely The Most Oppressed. And multiple trans women and trans fems came along to defend Winterfox's assumption and side with her. Up to and including the prominent transscribe. When it was pointed out to transscribe that WF was KNOWN FOR YEARS to be a serial abuser (to the tune of a page exposing WF of her heinous deeds over the years winning a goddamn Hugo Award for the work), transscribe's response was dismissing the claims bc they were mutuals on twitter for 7 years. It was utterly disheartening and a continued pattern of dismissal of trans masc and trans men's issues as seen on twitter for a while now.
like, sure, I hadn't seen any from your end in relation to, well, any given incident of this. You have always, ime, been a lot more mindful of the differing ways bigotry affects different groups than the folks I've had the misfortune of running into, so you're doing fine in comparison. Hell, even this I likely wouldn't have even detected anything wrong myself in this situation as described in the video. I do understand where the commenter was coming from, however, and I do believe this is a completely understandable and worthwhile response. It's always good to have reminders that we aren't perfect and to address them, as you definitely have here.
As an AFAB nonbinary person, I personally always hate the "trans women and nonbinary people" grouping, because to me trans men have the most relatable binary trans experience. It feels inaccurate, and exclusionary to me even though I'm technically being included, because framing it like that makes me feel like the AFAB trans experience broadly is being viewed as "less trans".
It's just annoying that I have to live my life being treated as a woman, with my experiences assumed to be less valuable or interesting than others, and then I go to queer spaces... And it's the same thing.
I know it doesn't help I'm also aro/ace but that's not what we're talking about right now.
Agree, being non-binary can mean so many different things, including not being part of any gender identity at all, like me. I don't identify well with the current mainstream depiction/representation of trans women at all, especially with traditional beauty standards and traditionally feminine gender roles. I feel like a lot of the media (which shapes our societal understanding of what it means to be trans) still sees being trans as going from one gender to another (female to male, male to female) and has very little room for people who don't do that. The conversation is currently for and by the voices that see only two flavors of trans and that leaves a lot of people out.
The AFAB trans experience sucks a lot of the time. Like you said, being seen as less trans or my least favorite, "female-light." I've always been a tomboy and I have a lot of traditionally masc interests, particularly sports. This puts me at odds with most trans communities I find because they're often mostly trans fem folx who have legitimately negative and traumatizing experiences with masc stuff like sports. But me liking sports and being athletic doesn't make me less trans. It might make me less relatable to that particular group.
In a trans support group years ago I expressed concerns about possibly going on female hormones in a few years when I get to menopause, and the subsequent mindfuck of being a trans person choosing hormone therapy for my AGAB and not for transition purposes. The group, mostly trans women and fems in their teens/early 20s, told me "that's AFAB problems" and pretty much shut me down. I even have weird feelings about taking spironolactone for my acne, when a lot of trans fem folx take it for their HRT. Other things like celebrating my chest getting smaller via exercise and not needing to wear a bra for the first time in 20 years is very hard to share because most people in my trans sphere want breasts and want to wear bras. In my mind, a bra is a prison. Covering up my chest with high necked tops and my binder is liberation.
It's so easy to get othered when there's very few seats at the trans table for anyone outside of the trans fem identity.
I agree, and it also feels really invalidating because I'm explicitly NOT a woman, even though I still look like one (no intention of any hormone therapy at this time). I want people to look at my trans-masc nonbinary, or AMAB nonbinary, or trans-fem nonbinary, or AFAB nonbinary, or anything nonbinary and just understand we're all in the same bundle together -- not identical, but a beautiful spectrum of experience that isn't the same as a trans-binary experience, or a cis-gendered experiences.
An important note is that non-binary people aren't lumped in with women because they are "like women", its because under patriarchy anybody who is not a man or "masculine enough" is a victim of one of our most pervasive structures of social power. Its an attempt to talk about patriarchy, and who does and doesn't benefit from it. To be clear, I understand why you hate the grouping and I do not disagree at all, it's just that patriarchy did the grouping for us already and when speaking about patriarchy you need to be able to speak about proximity to manhood as society sees it, not just as is correct.
Transmasc here and I have to say that I appreciate the conversation you have brought here today. In particular the way you pointed out how we are infantalized and treated like confused children by TURFS.
I have often found that my childhood conditioning to be the perfect daughter has fed into my personal approach to the discussion. Girls are not supposed to lead, we should sit still and not wrinkle our pretty dresses, silent, pretty, respectful and sweet. If I wasn’t those things I was being "bad".
I dont speak for all of my Transmasc brothers, of course but i remember as a kid looking at barbie dolls and wondering why I couldn't just be like her. That was what my parents wanted me to be. It was what society wanted me to be. I had 5 barbies for each ken because he didn't matter. She did... There were things in the movie that hit home. And I think in this video a transmasc perspective could have been interesting. Weaponized femininity can be harmful to transmen in unique and overlapping ways and that part of the story could have added something to the video.
Or not! Frankly, you can't include everything, its exhausting and can clutter up the narrative. And it is your channel! And you arent transmasc. Something i have unlearned from my childhood is the programing to be everything to everyone all the time. It is exhausting and it is a loosing game. You can't please everyone so you will inevitably fail. In the end you have to choose to tell the best story you can tell as only you can tell it.
I am a longtime fan of your video's (especially your startrek ones!) And i can say that i have never felt personally excluded from your takes, in fact many times i find myself saying "yes! Thank you! That's what i have been trying to say!"
You do a good job. And you are doing the work that we all need to do to grow and learn and give a voice where you can. This guy appreciates you. And thank you for the discussion. it's important and validating.
As a fellow trans masc guy, I also would have loved to hear a trans male perspective. I haven’t watched the Barbie video in question, but watching the movie I did cry. I loved Barbies as a kid, used them to try and make stop motions and push them off my bed to fall to their deaths. And to me watching the movie kinda made me mourn my loss of womanhood, if that makes sense. Like at the end I see all these women supporting each other and working together and I really felt that “oh I’m not a part of this anymore.” It felt alienating. Like even if I’m not a woman (and I’m not), I have seen myself as a girl for almost 20 years. And I think that feeling is worth looking at too. And that feeling leads kind of directly into being excluded from the conversation about this movie.
I know this isn’t what you felt (judging from your comment), but it’s just another transmasc perspective that would be interesting to explore.
I dunno it’s late and I’m not feeling nearly as eloquent as any of the other commenters or Jessie herself but I hope this makes sense at least.
@@chameleonfootyou hit the nail on the head. I felt this way too. Most of my friends are still women. Watching Barbie made me I feel like I just don't fit in anywhere. I can't relate to most cis guy experiences, but I'm not a woman, but I don't pass. I have to learn a whole set of social rules and it took me 20 years to figure out all the social intricacies of being a woman. I'm working on having more tans friends because thats where I fit in the best. I'm not particularly Masculine, but I'm not feminine either. I'm just me.
@chameleonfoot exactly. Femininity and womanhood are such complicated topics cause we all came at it differently.
I get what you mean about loosing the companionship that came with being a girl. I have to go searching to see if anyone has done a review from a transmasc perspective. This whole conversation is bringing up alot of thoughts not just about barbie but alot of my childhood media for me.
oh god... I kind of feel that. I spent way too long trying to be the big strong man that everyone told me I should be. your comment and so many other comments have given me more empathy and made me see trans men and trans masc people in less of a "all men are bad" light and more that we share a trans experience. and its not like we're going different ways, but rather we exist in the same space. thank you.
@@chameleonfootI feel that. Nostalgic feel good girl power movies that I used to love make me kind of sad now. They’re not for me, and even though I’m not a girl and never really felt like one, or ever fit in, it feels like a significant loss. I still get on better and am more comfortable with women, so it’s like I’m outside looking in, with nowhere to really go. I envy those with sisterhood.
So there's already a ton of comments on this video so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, but I just can't not share my thoughts on this particular issue--and I wanna preface this by saying I am a fan of your content and generally really appreciate the work you create and I respect your willingness to address the mistake. Also gonna state clearly that while I identify as a non-binary transmasc, and was thereby technically included in your statement, I think the way that statement was worded definitely put an emphasis on transfemme people that felt excluding even to me.
This blind spot does somewhat come from the fact that, as you mentioned, transwomen/transfemme perspectives kinda dominate the discourse right now, both on RUclips and in media in general, and as a result, trans men/transmasc voices are sidelined. But I also think a lot of it comes from this prevailing image of a Trans Man (tm) in peoples' minds. The idea of the perfectly passing Trans Man. Y'know, those images of the buff bearded cowboy hat wearin' guy stuck in the women's restroom to point out the ridiculousness of bathroom bills. The """flawless"""", very rich and very white transition of Elliot Page***. The image of a trans man that enjoys all the privileges of manhood and none of the pain of misogyny and transphobia. A man who doesn't reject the binary, simply hops over to the winning side, like all the TERFs insist.
Which is.... obviously ridiculous.
Like yeah, there is probably a remarkably small percentage of trans men who not only can pass flawlessly, both clothed and unclothed, and also has no one in their life who knows their assigned gender at birth. But the reality is that the vast majority of transmasc people either don't, can't, or don't want to pass fully. And as a result are going to be subjected not only transphobia, but misogyny. And I'm glad you pointed that out in this response--I think its a flaw in a lot of trans discourse, that in an effort to not misgender trans men, we simply refuse to admit that trans men experience misogyny.
But that's the reality. Some transmascs are too short, too curvy, too high-pitched. Some won't have access to T. Some aren't going to be able to pay thousands of dollars for top surgery. Some aren't gonna bother with the painful and often lackluster results of bottom surgery. Some don't want these things at all, or are just gender-nonconforming. These people are still men/masc, and at the same time, they are still seen by society as women. I still had my reproductive rights taken away. I still have to deal with healthcare discrimination both as a "female" and as a trans person. No amount of me shouting my pronouns at someone is going to stop a sexual assault. People don't need to take my beliefs or identity seriously because I'm "just a woman". Outside of my close friends and family, I am not seen as a man, have no desire to conform to Western masculine standards, and thus do not benefit from male privilege in the same way a cis man is-. Instead, I and many other transmascs are subjected to both misogyny *and* transphobia. And yet we consistently have to put up with people saying we're the enemy, or we aren't as radical as other identities, or we don't suffer enough to be allowed a voice in the discourse. (And this is not even getting into the ways that race, class, disability and other factors compound and complicate these issues even further.)
I just think that while its such a seemingly insignificant little thing, a lack of specificity in the wording, it still reflects the constant erasure of transmasc struggle in transgender discourse and reinforces peoples' internal bias that Trans Men by default are that passing, privileged, Cis-Man-In-Everything-But-Name. And no amount of intention is going to change that. We as a community are capable of addressing and acknowledging the differences (and similarities!) in trans experience amongst different identities without creating an unnecessary dichotomy and false monoliths.
(***I also don't want to apply here that Page specifically does not experience misogyny and transphobia (even more than usual given his role as a public figure), only that his experience is very much not reflective of the average trans person and comes with its own unique sets of privileges.)
As an Arab-American trans guy, videos like this are part of why I follow you. You’re humility, candor, and willingness to listen create a space that is as safe as possible while scratching my nerd brain and creating opportunities for me to learn about other people’s experiences. Thanks for both embracing the nuance and complexity of living in society and being open about your blind spots.
My first real experience of transandrophobia was when I volunteered to be one of my university's representatives at a student union meeting for trans students. I went with a trans woman, and on the train ride there I mentioned to her that I was glad I volunteered because I wanted to bring up some transmasc-focused issues that I felt were being overlooked, like period care products being available in mens' bathrooms and inclusion of trans men in university sports teams.
She told me not to bother, because the board consisted exclusively of trans women and no one would take me seriously.
I didn't end up speaking up, because of the few dozen reps there I was one of only three men present, everyone else were women and nb folks, and the way the folks in charge spoke was like trans women were the only trans people who exist and face problems. I didn't go back the following year, and I wonder how many other trans men made the same decision.
I do acknowledge that trans women face a lot more vocal aggression than trans men, and that it's a lot safer on the streets for men perceived as tomboyish women than it is for women perceived as effeminate men, but there's something to be said for the power inherent in visibility. Trans men are almost routinely abused medically and sexually, and when violence is committed against us it's often categorised as violence against women rather than transphobia. Our issues are covered over, pushed aside, ignored, and allowed to fester in silence, and then when we try to speak up we get ridiculed and accused of trying to take valuable space away from the *real* victims. Hell, we don't even get the crumbs of representation that trans women and even nonbinary people get in media. Sure, we don't get made fun of as much, but that's because we just... aren't there. Even in the background. And how dare we want to speak up and be acknowledged and heard.
It's hard to not get angry about that.
While I initially couldn't understand where this person was coming from, as you developed your own thoughts about it, I started to realize that their criticism kind of aligned with how I too have been feeling about breadtube essayists for a while - not from the perspective of a trans man, but from the perspective of a trans non-binary person who, too, has constantly felt excluded from these conversations.
I'm still going through the process of fully realizing myself in terms of my presentation, a mostly fem one - however, I still have a long way to go, both due to loving fashion and being a perfectionist in everything I do, and due to not having the time and mental health to invest in that pursuit, as someone suffering from chronic depression, anxiety, and depersonalization, as well as diagnosed with ADD, OCD, and a few other stuff (something which I myself may make a video on one day, as no one else seems to have ever verbalized the struggle of mental illness getting in the way of realizing yourself as a trans person). Also, it's expensive to completely revamp your wardrobe, and I'm still selling a lot of new clothes because I haven't quite found my style yet.
Thus, I'm currently in this really dissonant position of seeing myself in a way the world doesn't perceive me to be half of the time - unless I actually put the effort in it. When I do, I will go through the same struggles any other "fem" person usually would (usually being cat-called and such) - but when I lack the energy, health, or even the clothes to do so, it's almost as if my identity is stripped away from me, and I'm forced to go back to the closet. This, to me, hurts infinitely more than being targeted for living as myself.
Thus, it's just deeply painful how much people like me (trans people who have yet to fully realize themselves) are almost always forgotten by video essayists. Whenever they speak about "fems" (a term which I actually dislike), I know for sure they're not talking about me - and that deeply hurts. While this wasn't the case with your video, as you explicitly spoke about the struggles of non-binary people in general, I still wanted to verbalize how I empathize with these feelings of exclusion and alienation.
Honestly I hate how disconnected I feel from online queer spaces, which is all I have in terms of queer spaces because I live in a shithole country. I just quietly transition and don’t talk to anyone because I can’t take another fellow trans person dismissing my pain because I happen to want masculinity. I’m too tired
As a trans masculine person myself, I find it frustrating how invisible we often are within queer spaces and discussions. In regards to the amount of trans masculine creators online, I feel like I've noticed that it's often just harder for trans masculine creators to get the views and attention they need to actually become successful in comparison to how visible and often highlighted, trans feminine creators will be in the same sphere. I've been trying to find more and more trans masculine creators on youtube but when searching various trans issues or topics or just "trans men", you just find a lot more trans feminine over trans masculine.
I think also there is an assumption that our issues are "lesser" or "not as serious" as trans feminine issues and violence but as a trans masculine person, I've suffered a lot of abuse, violence, homelessness, and more. When I try to bring these up, people will only take me seriously if they see me as the "woman" I was assigned and not when I present masculine.
And that doesn't even BEGIN to cover the intersectionality of all these issues AND being an autistic adult!!! I had to have my cis male partner of 10+yrs tell the doctors that yes, I am autistic AND yes, I am ALSO trans masculine and NO one doesn't invalidate the other!!! But they still had to take HIS word over MINE! And I was 23 years old at the time, not even a teenager. I'm 30 years old now and I STILL have doctors doubting that I'm trans because I'm autistic!!!
I honestly think there is so much to talk about and as much as I'd love to be one of the creators making content and helping add to the trans masculine content online, being physically disabled and homeless with my partner and cat for 10 yrs has taken it's toll on me and I still don't have enough stability in my life to try and make content myself, but damnit when I get my shit together, you can bet I'll be making videos too!
To wrap up my long ass comment, I really appreciate you taking the time to think on this issue of yours and make such a good video addressing it. With all the various awful youtube apologies out there, it's really nice to see a creator actually take responsibility and make an effort to keep the discussion open too! I felt heard in this video, while also not feeling attacked and I think you approached this very open-mindedly and I can't wait to see the upcoming videos!!!
this kind of thing is why I love Jessie so much, she's always willing to listen to criticism and improve
💙 Really appreciate your approach to this conversation (and thank you for the shout out, too!) I think many trans men get frustrated with being overlooked or included in the "et al", if you will, because it's often at the root of how we're harmed. Obviously visibility comes with its own problems, but so too does erasure (such as lack of research on our healthcare, lack of support resources, etc.)
Not saying that the person offering criticism here was doing this--I think they were offering genuine criticism--but I've noticed a tension between transmascs and transfems that's bascially just bioessentialist, patriarchal transphobia pitting us against each other (while completely dismissing non-binary people who don't fall under masc or fem) when we're natural born allies. I bring this up because your response here is exactly how we *should* be handling these complexities--we have to listen to each other with a desire to understand because we are so powerful as a team.
et al -> et Allan? (Since this is the Barbie movie lol.)
I'm all around new to your work, and have been cautious in watching well known trans creators as well in recent years for the exact reasons that tumblr user mentioned. That said, I am really glad to see you recognize your own blind spot in this!
Others have mostly pointed out what comes across as the primary issue - which is really something of a micro aggression more than anything - but I wanted to put it into my own words: The primary issue I've taken in a lot of cases like this is the assumption that trans men or transmasculine individuals are either trying to find upward mobility under hegemonic patriarchy - or that they have gained upward mobility in the gender hierarchy (on purpose or by accident) because we live in a patriarchy that prizes masculinity over femininity.
I could write entire essays about how the intersection of transness with masculinity means that transmasculinity is actually viewed more negatively under patriarchy than cisfeminity - but suffice to say, at least for myself and any transmasculine people I know, transitioning has not made our lives easier. Being a trans man has been so, so, so much harder for me than being a cis woman ever was.
Even if a trans man perfectly passed and was perfectly stealth, trans men face serious threats in healthcare, intimate relationships, legal systems, etc. that leads to higher rates of abuse, SA, suicide, etc. than cis women which cannot be overcome.
I also want to add that at least for myself and many other trans men I know - masculinity in trans men is really often not the kind of masculinity you see prized in hegemonic patriarchy. A lot of trans men take joy in bodies - their own or each others' - in ways cis men do not, such as the willingness to embrace breasts or a wider range of genital types or a lack of/an abundance of body hair or fatness as all equally capable of being masculine features. A lot of trans men like to dress feminine, wear makeup, or take part in queer sexuality and kink in a way that many cis men do not do nearly as often. Even a lot of those that do present in a way that is more cismasculine often have such a different relationship dynamic with masculinity and feminity that their internal gender can not compare in many ways to cis men. The monolithic idea that trans men all try to emulate cis men is something I think more people need to challenge - in themselves and in each other.
While I have never felt like you are explicitly against trans men, or intending to do transandrophobia. It has felt like there was a lack in effort to include us, almost as if trans men have been forgotten from the conversation.
I have seen this with quite a few prominent video essaysts, of being left out of the conversation. Not by malice, of course, but still being forgotten.
I really love this channel and it has some great things, and really helped me in my own gender journey. So I hope you take this criticism and grow and continue to make even better work in the future.
Trans women should not be seen as lowering themselves in the hierarchy but instead as breaking the hierarchy and pursuing their own identity. Trans men should not be seen going up in the hierarchy, but instead breaking free and finding their own identity. Society may not see it this way, but it's up to us as progressives to try to change that perspective.
Edit: Just to be clear, everyone should be trying to break the hierarchy, regardless of their identities. Not going to the same "rank" as men or women doesn't mean they aren't real men or women. It simply means they're rejecting society's concept of how people of those identities should be treated. It's not up to society to determine what any identity should be, it's up to each individual to define what their identity means for themselves.
Exactly my point. Trans women aren't lowering themselves in the hierachy but breaking it all together. But we are perceived to be doing so and thus TERFs argue we are "appropriating womanhood" as they identify with their womanhood as part of a hierarchy rooted in them being the victim.
@@jessiegenderafterdark5287Cis men also have said to me that I'm appropriating manhood as a trans guy. Particularly in discussions about the challenges that men face. "You didn't grow up being told you have to be a provider, be strong, be a leader. Your opinion as a wannabe man isn't relevant."
"Appropriating manhood" isn't part of the wider anti-trans rhetoric... yet. But things have been escalating and for good or bad, trans masc visibility is on the rise. Give it a year or two. I think we'll see it or something along that vein.
As a trans guy, LOUDER FOR THOSE IN THE BACK!
Healthcare providers have difficulties recognizing my transness despite me having legally and socially transitioned, because I haven´t had access to T yet. But to me, HRT isn´t some ultimate goal. It´s an option that comes with benefits and drawbacks. What matters to me is to stand up to being seen as a woman, which I´m not, while standing in solidarity towards women and all NGC folks and hoping that me being out and proud will some day add up and the world will become more just.
@@CorwinFound I want to hear more of this conversation. I've never heard this side of things.
@@oliviawolcott8351 It was in the comment section of the Shaun video about Andrew Tate and toxic masculinity. I had a comment that blew up a bit, giving my perspective as a trans guy and how I perceived the challenges that men, particularly cis men, have.
I think what pissed some guys off was that I said I've been told by a few cis guys that I'm super confident. My explanation was that my lack of need to act masculine and tough all the time feels very brave to men, particularly those around my own age, 40 and up. Exhibiting emotional vulnerability, in a sense appearing weak by choice, can look extremely strong. Because men, especially Gen X and up, seem to have been taught that exhibiting strength at all times and at any cost is vital to being perceived as masculine by other men. Basically, a masculine, straight passing guy (even a trans one) opting to appear less emotionally "masculine" is so far outside typical that it blows their minds a bit.
And the haters did _not_ like that at all. I am obviously not a "real" man since I managed to dodge the toxic requirements to exhibit strength and a fear of appearing less than perfectly masculine at all times. And I think at least one person used the term appropriating but I can't remember for sure. It was definitely the vibe regardless.
I mean this in the most benevolent way possible: I don't know how to explain to you that trans men don't move up the social hierarchy when we transition. We don't go from living as cis women to living as cis men. Trans men are oppressed by virtue of being trans by cis people and institutions, including cis women.
Passing privilege is conditional cis privilege, therefore even the very few of us who are stealth, pass as cis and have "fully" transitioned only have male passing privilege, which is not actual male privilege.
I am tired of having to explain to other trans people that I experience more oppression since openly living as a trans man than I did living as a woman. I basically still get the whole sexism package & oppression tied to my reproductive system I was getting before + transphobia.
Obviously stuff gets easier in time for trans men who can transition/pass but it's not automatic, it's not instantaneous and it's not everyone.
EDIT: while I agree trans women are at the centre of the moral panic we're currently seeing saying "trans men and non binary people are also affected by the laws being passed" is reductive in my opinion, the whole thing in the UK about kids and gender affirming care started around the panic of poor impressionable afab kids ruining their precious bodies. Most of it can be pinpointed to Abigail Shrier's "irreversible damage: the transgender craze seducing our daughters", JKR's manifest targeting "vulnerable girls" and that one detransitioner woman who sued the NHS (can't remember her name). My point is that, while trans women and trans femmes are being demonized and attacked more than anyone else, to say that trans mascs and trans men are kind of being hit as collateral damage is absolutely inaccurate and doesn't help our community defend itself.
The exclusion of trans men in that sentence was very loud in their absence, so I'm glad you're responding in good faith. I wanna add something as a BIPOC queer immigrant, though I am cis:
I have more trans man friends than trans woman friends, so I like listening to your and other trans femme creator perspectives on topics I know less about. But I've definitely seen a lot of weird hostility and misunderstandings about trans men and trans masc ppl (not from the creators; just on socials and other areas), and a lot of it can be attributed to bad actors but some of it feels very exclusionary in that there are many assumptions made that other people do not experience certain types of oppression. Even when they do, very often.
From a BIPOC/immigrant perspective, there are major cultural differences that affect trans men and trans women and NB people that often aren't taken into account. As an example; some of my trans man friends cannot even get HRT or surgery and will remain non passing possibly forever, in a society that's fairly hostile to LGBTQ+ people as a whole. They're too busy surviving to even think about transitioning, and it's heartbreaking, but that's reality for many - though because they're able to be their honest self online, people have assumptions about them. A lot of discussions about trans men's experiences and even "privileges" seem to assume full access to physical/medical transition, or passing in general, or even the same cultural acceptance/response. I can imagine a similar experience for trans women in my country, but I don't have close enough Pinay trans women friends to ask.
That stuff is different even in the same country for different people of different cultural backgrounds, let alone different countries. I think some people are too comfortable painting such broad strokes about the experiences of trans men, trans women, and NB people based on their own cultural experiences, without any consideration for how truly different things are depending on geography alone, let alone culture. Gender alone has that variation across cultures; I often don't relate to White Western women because their struggle is so different from mine, but I support them in their struggles anyway because I have had access to privileges they do not have.
On some level, from what I know of my trans man and trans masc friends - they support the struggles of other trans people, so to have their identity very loudly erased in issues they may have experienced can feel like wounding. Even if it's not on purpose. And many of them don't have the "privileges" people accuse them of having to nurse that wound.
bigender trans man here - i very much appreciate this video I feel like it's a long standing issue a lot of trans men/transmascs feel just like our feelings don't matter and kinda echos a lot of people ignoring out issues and pain and echos how people treat women.
This might not make sense excuse the rambling. I think sometimes people paint a trans man as its experience is similar to a cishet man no matter what and we will always pass and its great being a man. We get hrt and everything works great with no issues, get surgeries easily, go stealth, and no ones the wiser. Thus why would we ever have issues we are now a cishet man in the eyes of society. In real life its a lot more complicated and not everyone wants to be seen as a cis man/nor are they. And since we're seen as cis men we're no longer targeted or affected by misogyny so we no longer have a claim to it while people then push the stereotypical gender role of a man back on us.
I think it really shows how society really pushes gender roles and while we try to fight it, unconsciously sometimes we push the roles of cis men onto trans men/transmascs. I've talked to others who agree with this feeling of how much people push cis male and cis female roles upon them. I think a good example of the weird push of gender roles is the loneliness after coming out, people echoing now that they want to support their friends transition by ignoring them or kicking them out of the group because they are now a man and you don't have a need for emotional support anymore. They're affirming their gender but to watch your friends just leave you behind is heartbreaking.
I will say over the last 10 years i've been on the web it is also disheartening to see twitter devolve into attacking trans men/transmascs with radfem bioessentialism or treating them like they don't have any specific issues that affect them just because it boils down to transphobia or misogyny. The word for transphobia towards trans men has changed over the years and still is tbh (ive seen anti-transmasculinity, virilphobia, etc) but its interesting to watch the word picked apart as people debate over the the latin roots and picking apart the word or whoever made it was a terrible person. And it's just...disheartening to see people act like we don't have issues because it affects everyone so we dont have to differentiate. (EDIT: Hell i'm seeing it even play out in the comments - i do think its a part of life now on the internet that we want to look for others experiences so looking in tags for transandrophobia/whatever term we use is a way we also just kinda work now /shrug but THAT specific conversation seems to overtake it and get away from the oppression towards trans men start of a discussion as social media fighting just makes it worse)
but all that rambling aside i look forward to your upcoming video thank you for listening :)
I appreciate this video Jessie.
It does feel like we’re seen as somehow inherently less queer in a lot of queer spaces.
As a trans man, it’s really difficult feeling like I am excluded from all sides. Often, trans men are the only group within the trans community not explicitly named. Queer support initiatives are often only for trans women and non-binary people, because our manhood seems to cancel out our needs and experiences of transphobia in the minds of some. Non-queer spaces don’t feel welcoming because of transphobia and misogyny (where we are seen as and treated as confused women), and queer spaces often don’t either, because we are told not to speak over women, that we are the enemy (men), that we don’t have it as bad so we should shut up and deal with it etc. We experience misogyny and transphobia, and we’re not allowed to speak about it in spaces designed for that explicit purpose (e.g. I can’t talk about my own uterus without being accused of mansplaining, or about the effects of our female socialisation without being told we’re implying the opposite about trans women, even though that’s not how it even works). We are often silenced by the assertion that simply being a trans man affords us male privilege. So like, when and where *do* we get to speak?
We also can’t often really speak about this phenomenon in itself, because if we try, it’s not long before accusations come of transmisogyny, or of denying and erasing the struggles that trans women face, which it really isn’t about. It’s about the lack of space, support, and voice available to us. We want acknowledgement and support, to be taken seriously and to take up space where we have never been allowed to before, not to take anything away from trans women. It’s good and right that trans women and non binary people get to take up space and be supported. It’s just not good that trans men often do not. Too often people act like it’s pie. Acknowledging a struggle, even if it were comparatively less difficult, does not erase those who may have it worse.
Visibility can be dangerous, and seeing what trans women and femmes go through, I know it can be awful, but invisibility is no privilege either. We are voiceless and our struggles either denied or not taken seriously.
I particularly struggle when we are seen as perpetrators of the things we are often victims of, and worse, because it is often implied we ‘chose’ to be men, and are therefore traitors. As a teenager many years ago, going to tumblr to seek support from other trans people, and being bullied out of trans tumblr spaces within a week by a group of adult trans women that used to call themselves ‘baeddels’, who spent all their time harassing trans men with deliberate dysphoria triggering material, calling us scum, telling us to unalive ourselves, insisting we don’t face real transphobia and are transphobic for suggesting we do etc… it was horrible. I don’t see that ever talked about now, despite it being a big thing, and have always been afraid to bring it up because of how it could easily be twisted, by both those in the trans community against me, or by transphobes and particularly transmisogynists against trans women (their habit of pointing at one bad trans person and saying “see! They’re all like that, I told you!”. Same with even using the word ‘transandrophobia’. Feels ripe for the picking for people to claim it’s the same as ‘not all men’ or crying ‘reverse racism’.
Basically it feels like we’re invisible and undeserving of concern at best, or actual horrible monsters at worst. You have never made me feel quite that way, but others have. I will say I did feel some type of way when watching your Barbie video at the point addressed in this one. I genuinely appreciate your willingness to think about this and hold space for it, it would be much easier for you to just ignore, and I’m glad you didn’t. Not that I think you ever would do so consciously. It’s abundantly clear that you’re a good egg who actually cares and strives for better.
I’m bad at expressing my thoughts, and others in this comments section have done it far better than I could, but I felt the need to comment anyway. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about the topic of transandrophobia and specific trans man/masc struggles but I don’t really know how to express them accurately and adequately and I have a pathological fear of being misconstrued and rejected 😅
Anyways, thanks again for this Jessie :)
I’m a fairly masculine trans guy who almost exclusively dates women and who doesn’t have much experience with being with men. That being said, I am technically bi (though I have a strong preference for women) and I’ve noticed I’ve been consistently been treated like a girl once people find that out. I’m not even attracted to men the way people think I am. I don’t want to be some guy’s “girlfriend with pronouns.”
If nothing else, this video has opened up discussion that has been really cathartic to read as a transmasculine nonbinary person who hasn't had the opportunity for physical transition as of yet. I didn't really catch this in the video or deem it as offensive while watching that Barbie essay, but thinking on it, yeah the OP of that post definitely has a point and speaks directly to how I feel as a masculine-aligned identity in this community often.
I think the thing that never ever gets touched on with us is how much we ALSO challenge the idea of gender hierarchy and break these standards the same way any other trans identity can specifically through the concept of "passing". I've heard numerous perspectives from transfeminine people on their experiences, coming into femininity while having everybody outside of yourself projecting this idea of manhood onto you, and we all acknowledge the nuances in that and how the idea of gendered socialization is utilized in a lot of exclusionary and harmful ways to create another narrative of bio-essentialism that is just a step more "progressive" with the guise of inclusive language.
That being said, I have experiences that I don't think I've seen any trans creators in general talk about. I'm transmasculine and my identity, though also under the nonbinary umbrella, IS aligned masculine. Meanwhile, I'm still seen by society as a woman and treated as such. When I am seen as a woman and then mistreated under the presumption that I am a woman, what is that but misogyny? We acknowledge as a community that presentation doesn't equal gender identity, but then we talk about how patriarchy works in such generalized terms of how every trans person is supposedly experiencing transitioning. I would argue MOST transmascs do not "pass" enough to operate as if we've ascended from experiencing misogyny and are now on the level of cis men, because to do that and have it work in literally any situation other than talking to complete strangers we'd have to never speak to family, friends, health providers or anybody ever who knew us before an entire physical transition. It's unrealistic for any trans person, and yet many transmasculine people are operating in a world that treats many of us as women while the wider trans community treats us like we're cis men.
I agree with many of the other comments, "women and nonbinary" as a signifier has become kind of synonymous to me with spaces that front as more inclusive and feminist while not actually wanting to question too hard just how much trans people really do make this conversation far too nuanced to easily generalize and sort into neat little labels for exclusion OR inclusion. I know this wasn't Jessie's intent at all and I really enjoyed that video! but I think this is a symptom of a wider problem with feminist and trans discussions as a whole online and especially IRL. I'm glad Jessie decided to make this video about it, cause I understand exactly why she worded it the way that she did but this way we all speak on trans experiences makes transmasculine people invisible or demonizes our identities entirely. It sucks.
Transmasc enby here - thank you for this video! It's so easy to ignore transmasc experiences and I found it very refreshing that you're here addressing it and trying to do better. I really enjoy your videos and takes and I've been watching a while (and I will continue to)
I would say that your point about trans femme and nonbinary people pushing back against the gender 'hierarchy' of men > women in our wider society is one I understand, but I don't agree with. Because we are not seen as moving 'up' the power hierarchy in any way. We are seen as abandoning our 'true' gender, contributing to misogyny while also suffering from it, and as you said we're infantalised and viewed as manipulated by 'bad trans activitsts' rather than knowing our own minds
So we will never be seen as claiming more power on the gender hierarchy (which should not be a thing anyway). Even the few of us that do become cis-passing (which is a whole other conversation) will never fully be seen as men by TERFs and transphobes, and our experiences are largely unheard and invisible. So it did hurt a bit to hear that in the Barbie video, but you're explanation here is very helpful
Thank you for addressing it and I am very refreshed and grateful that you're talking about this openly! You're clearly very thoughtful and I am excited to see what you make in the future :) thank you for being lovely on the internet!
i really super appreciate this kind of candor when talking about criticisms like this. i think for trans men it's very difficult to talk about the ways we are harmed by patriarchy, and it's nice when people are chill about our attempts to sort out our place in things, letting us all work thru it together instead of trying to strong-arm ppl into shutting up their criticisms.
i think other trans ppl often do not pick up that "transandrophobia"/"transmisandry"/whatever-we-might-call-it often comes in the form of seeing trans men as traitors to feminism or shills for patriarchy. you say you highlighted trans women/nb ppl because they are seen as rejecting patriarchal power by rejecting a male identity-- which tracks, as you say, this is how transphobes basically accuse trans women of stolen valor, because adopting a female (or, broadly, non-male) identity defaults you into a political position where you are presumed to be aligned with women/non-men and aligned against patriarchy. the inverse assumption is also common-- that adopting a male identity by default puts you (or rather us, trans men) in political alignment with patriarchy & against women/non-men.
but this isn't so-- many women are aligned with patriarchy to the detriment of other women, and many trans men work extremely hard to figure out how to fully own our identity as men without capitulating to patriarchal norms to do it. many trans men also learn in transition that the patriarchy is not actually very fond of us, or really of ANY non-normative sorts of men-- patriarchy is not actually so eager to empower men who are nonwhite, who are disabled, who are trans, etc!! i think most ppl do not recognize how much the capital-b Binary is invariably cis, and how having a lowercase-b "binary" gender identity does not "make up for" the precarious position of being trans at all, for trans men OR trans women. patriarchal powers are not out here giving head pats to everyone who doesn't identify as a woman, it saves its boons for only a tiny handful of extremely-normie people, it is capricious and more eager to hem us in than give us favors. so the constant reminders of how patriarchy treats women & non-men end up feeling like a disavowal of trans men as allies to those specific struggles, or it reads as an unwillingness to see trans men's own specific struggles as really being part of queer struggle as a whole.
ultimately i think trans men are forgotten about when it comes to discussing problems that we absolutely share with the rest of the trans community. i don't think you said anything Bad in your original video, it's just that transmascs tend to be sensitive to rhetoric that seems to forget about our struggles or diminish our relevance to the fight for liberation all trans people need. we hear a lot about our potential to do things wrong or hurt others, and not a lot about how we are harmed by the same forces that affect our siblings. it would be nice if more trans theorists like yourself would talk about trans men as if our struggles are necessarily connected to the struggles of other types of trans people, rather than framing us as disconnected or assuming that we are necessarily less-harmed by patriarchy than others.
I didn't see the Barbie video, and I l've been watching your videos long enough to give you the benefit of the doubt that you have a good reason for singling out women/femme experience in a video about Barbie. Makes sense to me. But seeing the quote here, and being transmasc, I can see how someone who carries a lot of hurt on the issue could connect your statement that "[trans women & femmes] directly point out how binaries are bullshit" can sound like "trans men uphold the binary" or "trans men benefit from male privilege" or a myriad of other statements that don't acknowledge a trans man's lived experience (after all, most of us lived as women and therefore have first-hand knowledge of that bullshit binary, myself for over 30 years before transitioning). I don't know the person who made the post, and I didn't/don't think your statement was meant to be read between the lines like that, but hopefully that fills in any gaps of how someone might make that connection. Thanks for making such thoughtful content. ❤