Making Pyrocat-HD Last for Years!
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2024
- There are two camps, those who like Pyrocat-HD and those who prefer 510-Pyro. One of the reasons people like 510 is its longevity. One of the reasons people like Pyrocat-HD is Catechol, the developing agent, and the colour of stain it gives which may be better suited to modern multi grade papers (noted by Barry Thornton and others).
In this video I show you how to make Pyrocat-HD that'll last just as long as 510-Pyro, yes, many years. And you can try the different stain of this marvellous developer. See for yourself why it's so popular!
John
www.pictorialplanet.com
Hi John ))) Decided to listen to this video after you talking about Steve Sharm's work. But also following your advise, am going to make 510 Pyro my developer. I have all chemicals but the phenidon. And waiting for the new scale to arrive! Thank you for your support, anther great video. Hey... it was really nice for you to hold up the chemicals so we can see the spelling. That was nice! )))
Good choice Gary and thanks for the feedback about holding up the chemicals. I’ll remember to do that in future vids.
Once again thanks for a wonderfully informative video John. You are absolutely spot on when you advise picking one developer/film combination and learning it thoroughly. On looking back at my film/dev tests I had gone from “Xtol only” to Hypercat to GSD-10, (which was the result of left-over glycin from trying WB 130 print developer. Now, following a 10+ year hiatus from the B&W darkroom, (my true photographic passion) I shall be returning to the “flock” in the coming months and find your videos incredibly inspiring adding to my growing excitement! As a Brit who was transferred here to New York for “2 years” in 1977, we shall be moving to Savannah, Ga to be closer to our kids prompted, of course, by lockdowns of the past 15 months…… just as soon as we get the house sold and another one bought! Thanks again John. Keep ‘em coming - please!
Best of luck in your return to B&W. There’s nothing like it. I’ve been a resident of Savannah for 15 years, should you have any questions about the city. Lots of great historical architecture, if you like that sort of thing. Gets a bit warm in the summer months, though.
@@grampadoug100 Thanks Doug. I’m looking forward to it. You’re so right about the summer heat of course. Guess I’m just going to have increase my consumption of cold beer! What a tragedy! Thanks again.
@@grampadoug100 Forgot to mention …. Once it’s above 95 I’ll see you in The Six Pence😂🤣😂
@@bobhall7257 Never been to the Six Pence, but, if you’re looking for something to remind you of Britain then that’s the place. I leave town in May and don’t return until October, too hot for me.
I purchased the dry version from photographers formulary thru B and H photo along with a 100 foot roll of arista 400 then got free shipping. I was happy to see all the chemicals came in their own plastic envelops labeled and divided. so if you buy the dry version you can make it in glycol as described here Just follow the directions and substitute glycol for water like John does here in part A. The smallest version is like 18$ and makes 100ml of the stock. That's enough to do about 30 films so plenty to try to see if you like it. Then you can decide if you want to invest in bulk chemicals to make it like John does here. In the states I have found it most convenient though to purchase my bulk chems directly from Photographers Formulary.
Great comment, thank you Fulton! When I lived in the states I use Photographers Formulary a lot for my chemicals. Always had a good experience. Same with B and H.
Steve Sherman's prints are fantastic and really do show what you can do with Pyrocat. Thanks for showing how to mix it in glycol.
My pleasure, Michael.
great video thank you again , i tried pyrocat hd with across 100 and got fabulous results the next time i will use a alkaline fixer as you recommend
Yes, good move Pat. An all round better fix.
Thanks!
Thanks for a very informative video with some very good tips on mixing chemicals without too much stress.
I have used Pyrocat hd for many years and can confirm it is an exceptionally good developer.
I am yet to try the new Pyro Tea formula but will do so when I can source Tea here in Australia.
But keeping qualities of Pyrocat HD were not that great with the original formula even with distilled water (Soln A).
The updated Glycol formula discussed here should fix the problem and I will be mixing a batch shortly.
This developer is supposed to have advantages for large format users who use a Jobo Expert drum as I do. I always pre wet the film first for 2 minutes and run the Jobo CPE2 at the lowest rotation speed.
5x7 FP4 negs are a delight to behold!
Subscribed!
Thanks for your comment, Brian.
Well I have discovered it’s not as easy as it looks to mix part A.
Everything went well until I added the Sod Met and Kbr and then the clear Pyrocat/Phenidone/Glycol went cloudy.
I did dissolve the Sod Met and Kbr in 25ml warm water until clear - but confess I did dissolve the Sod Met first.
Do I start again?
I think it'll still work fine, Brian. Give it a shake before use and stir well when making your working solution.
Ah, this is Pyrocat MC? Great informative video as always John!
510 Pyro prints great on Ilford Multigrade papers including their latest one :) done lots of high key still life prints with it but I do admit Pyrocat has the slightest edge for the highlights for prints
I'm still firmly in the 510 camp though!
Also accelerating my experiments in the eco tablet developer I am formulating, made Version 2 over the weekend :) lovely grain and high acutance in the Foma 100 35mm test roll! Not so pleased with the tonality however particularly the highlights
Jay is doing his own version in a completely different research route and his is vastly simpler 😆 had a look at the formula
Hi James! This is Pyrocat-HD. The MC version uses metol and ascorbic acid with catechol. Your eco tablet developer sounds like a novel way of mixing up working solutions. I look forward to hearing of your progress.
Hi James! How's your tablet developer coming along?
@@PictorialPlanet hey John, improved it a lot since :) reduced alkalinity but it's not there yet! It's also very complicated as a reaction so trying to figure out a way to consistently make it and not accidentally fry the developer haha
Currently at V5 and V6 will be next week - I restarted research as I had upgraded my manufacturing equipment for 510 Pyro to more automated and double digit litre scale so I have more free time now :)
Also added a few more things to the roadmap - working with a chemist who is inventing new things for the Zone Imaging brand! One that he has come up is particularly exciting!
What fun! Keep us updated on these exciting things! Can't wait to hear what's next!
@@PictorialPlanet we still need to have that call, I can get you invited to The Photography Show if you would like
Another great video, my friend! I just bought and tried my first Pyrocat HD. Developed 4 sheets of HP5+ in a Stearman Press tank. I realized after seeing these little 100ml bottles that this stuff is expensive (compared to Rodinal, HC-110 or D76). You make it look so easy making them from scratch. Does it cost much less to make your own solution just like you did? Do you develop everything in Pyro?
It is more cost effective to make your own. There's usually an initial expense to buy scales and the bulk chemicals but then, after that, it pays dividends. I use pyro for some work but have other developers too. If you ever want to start making your own developer drop me a line to chat about it.
@@PictorialPlanet what is your email?
pictorialplanet at gmail dot com
A video on storing and appropriate bottling might be useful. There are cheap amber bottles online and very very expensive ones too. If storing a lot of developer for potentially years it could be interesting to see how best (as well as economically sound) to store it ? I'm going to mix 10 litres of HD as i have all the materials and i thought it would be best put them in solution rather than in part full packs and cheap packaging. I'll have enough HD for a lifetime !
Hi Simon. I cover this in my book where I talk about best plastics for storing developers. Glass is good too but I prefer to re-use fruit squash bottles so they don't end up in the landfill.
I have the pyrocat hd premixed vs individual chems... Would I be able to change/add to the mix to make that last longer? I haven't made it into the stock solution yet of course.
I should add, I bought the glycol version... Am I already set?
You are already set my friend. You have the very long lasting version.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you! I realized after posting, that wait, I think I bought the version with glycol specifically for this reason!
About to take on making this today ☺, any tips on heating glycol, considering it's boiling temp is less than 50 deg C? Also, I made a mistake and bought from BH enough chemicals to make 50 L of Pyrocat - I assume this is to make 50 L of stock solution(s), which makes huge amounts of working solution, am I right? Cheers and thanks in advance!
You must have a different glycol to me. It should be propylene glycol with a boiling point (according to google) of 188.2C. Are you thinking of some kind of alcohol maybe? Glad you're making plenty of Pyrocat! You'll need it, it's a very good developer!!
To heat the propylene glycol first measure the amount in a heatproof glass (Pyrex) container then pop in microwave for short bursts until it hot enough to dissolve everything. It takes a while so take your time, Alexander.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you so much for an informative and prompt reply, much appreciated!
Well, might be that I misread the data on glycol ☺, I'll make sure to look for the right one at the store.
Also, yes, I will be making a lot of Pyrocat but I am still unsure - are these chemicals in PhotographersFormulary 50L kit to make 50L working solution or 50L stock, which makes gallons and gallons of working solution? Their tech sheet is quite confusing (I find).
The photographers Formulary kits are to make 50lts working solution not concentrate.
You'll need 500ml propylene glycol for the 50 Ltr kit
@@PictorialPlanet May the gods of Linus & Pauling help me 🤗😁
Very interesting. i always thought Pyrocat can not be made long lasting. When do you use Pyro510 and when Pyrocat -HD?
I mostly use pyrocat hd as I find it more controllable with different amounts of A and B.
I think YOU would have been fun to fly with for an entire month.. on the line... ;)
Love your informaton. If potassium carbonate is so slow to disolve why not mix it half strenth and 1:2:100? Do you know the limit for using Sodium Carbonate? Could I disolve an appropriate amount directly into the water then add the part A or even just make a 2.5l stock of solution to use with part A?
Yes, half strength works well and will make no difference to the end product if diluted as you say. Sodium carbonate is usually diluted at 20% for these things. The solubility of sodium carbonate, according to Wikipedia, is Anhydrous, g/100 mL:
7 (0 °C)
16.4 (15 °C)
34.07 (27.8 °C)
48.69 (34.8 °C)
48.1 (41.9 °C)
45.62 (60 °C)
43.6 (100 °C)
Wikipedia cites Seidell, Atherton; Linke, William F. (1919). For that information.
Finally, I have never added part b first then added A. The reason being that the alkalinity increases oxidation of the part A but give it a try and see if there's any negative effect.
I did a Jessops 100 in my Pyrocat HD and negs came out 'Thin as Ghosts ' !! I had not used it for a long while and part B the Pot Carbonate bottle was 'low' -- do you think O2 has Oxodised the Pot Carbonate and changed the alkalinity ?
Check it Peter. Get some PH strips and check it.
Hi John, mixing the Pyrocat HD solution part B by adding the Potassium Carbonate in small parts and slowly at 60C, the mixture turned cloudy but when it cleared up a sediment was formed that could not be mixed no matter how much I shake the solution. The kit is from Photographers Formulary in powder, and I have already used it without a problem when mixing the chemicals and it has worked very well for me. The question is, can filtering the solution work? I understand that it can work at half its concentration.
It's sometimes hard to dissolve the potassium carbonate in such a high concentration. You are right to state that halving the concentration works well. Just double how much you use in the developer so go from the original 1+1+100 to 1+2+100. The developer will work exactly the same.
Thank you John for the fast and clear response!!!
Would you recommend this developer for the 35mm format and a semi-stand development?
Definitely, it's a fine grained and sharp developer. Great for semi-stand.
I have nearly finished one bottle of 510. I quite like it, I think the stain works well for half frame especially, but I really dislike the thick consistency. For a toxic substance, being awkward to work with is a definitely downside. I've recently picked up a Pyrocat HD from Nik & Trick (which I am fairly sure is this glycol variant). Only developed a step wedge and some tests in it so far, but it is definitely far easier to handle.
Do you have any thoughts on the stain colour difference between 510 and Pyrcat in regard to printing on VC papers? I've heard there are things to consider there (and that pyrocat's stain is closer to a neutral grade 2 filter).
I like pyrocat and find the stain prints well on vc papers although, truth be known, I've had very good prints from pyrogallol developers too so the difference is marginal at best. I think you'll get everything you could ever need from pyrocat.
Hi John, I mixed up a batch of pyrocat hd but my solution is not reddish at all when I poured in the catechol into the PG solution, unlike yours. I bought it from Artcraft and just opened to mix my 1st batch. The catechol crystals were whitish in colour and when dissolved, the PG solution remained clear. It didn’t need much heat to dissolve. It’s this normal? My fully mixed solution of pyrocat HD with all the chemicals were a light yellow/straw colour due to the Phenidone-PG mix.
Hi David. There are two types of catechol that I've seen and it sounds like yours is one of them so the pyrocat should be ok. The common catechol here is brown and in flakes and gives that brown colour when dissolved. My guess is that yours is fine.
Thanks John. Will give it try by developing some rolls over the weekend. By the way, I just received your book and it’s a real gem with lots of information. Thanks for all the work you have put into it over the years.
Can you use TEA instead of propylene glycol? And where can you get that steering stick
I've never tried because the PH would be different. TEA is alkaline whereas Glycol is pretty neutral. If, and I don't know but, if everything dissolved successfully in the TEA the activity of the developer would be different. I think you should try it and see what happens. The stirring stick comes from Paterson I think.
@@PictorialPlanet thanks I guess I will give it a try with a small batch and see what happens
Great video John.
I've never used pyro developers before but you inspired me to start this great developer.
Just a question. If I mix water base version of Pyrocat, can I mix A & B to make single stock?
I like simplifying things.
Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately, if you mix A and B the developer will not last. They are kept separate for good keeping.
is the 2% phenidone also dissolved in glycol or water?
Thanks
Glycol
Nice video. Could you make a video about making Pyrocat MC?
Hi Francisco, thanks for your comment. Yes, I will make a video on making Pyrocat-MC. Stay tuned!
@@PictorialPlanet Amazing, thank you so much!
What is Pyrocat MC? and the difference to HD?
Hi Johnn , I’d like to use Pyrocat hd but i’m a little bit confused about dev time , expecially in Jobo continuos agitation. On web you can find tons of suggestion but can you suggest a starting time for FP4 hp5 Fomapan 100 and 200? I ‘ve read your book but i don’t speak never about rotation mode and never of Fomapan. Thank you. Romano
Sorry, Romano, but I don't use Fomapan or rotary processing. However, I do have a few videos about finding your perfect film speed and developing time which will work for any film and developer combination. It's also described in my book.
Does anyone knows dev times for Ilford Pan F with Pyrocat-HD ?
Try 2:2:500 dilution. Pre-soak for the first two minutes. Then empty and pour in the developer. Agitate for the first minute. Let stand for 7 minutes - agitate 30 seconds. Let stand for another 7 minutes - agitate 30 seconds. Let stand for a third 7 minutes, stop in water baths (x3) and fix. All at 20C.
The catechol i bought has the same color and form than yours. In the www some resources say that if it become brownish grey it is much weaker than fresh catechol which should be white greenish.
Are these your experiences too? Or is it just a web-rumor that should not be trusted? How long can Catechol be stored in that form you and me have?
Mine seems to work just fine. No problem at all.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you. i am asking because i wanted to try an old Windisch compensating formula for photos in the waddensee where almost harsh light conditions are when the sun is shining…
Sounds good. Yes, I've used this catechol for all my pyrocatechin formulas and they've been great. I suspect it's a different way of making it because the chemical is in flat crystals where the whiteish greenish crystals are tiny and quite different.
@@PictorialPlanet That might be the reason. A different chemical status of that catechol. I have to find the old book of Windisch if he is writing something about that.
unfortunately I'm a bit messy with my books and they are everywhere but not there where i think…
I can see a book organising in your future ;)
Hello John. I just made some PyrocatHD. The 'A' solution - no problem. The 'B' solution which I used a auto-stirer for , and added the Potassium Carbonate very slowly (over a 20' range) was cloudy at first. But when stored in a bottle cleared BUT there was a cloudy layer at the top. Should I just shake it up to use or should I filter it?
Great stuff, Dennis. I'd just shake it up and use. It's a very concentrated solution and at the Pyrocat dilution will dissolve easily into the working solution. You're going to love that developer!
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you for the explanation John. I realy like the first roll of film I developed in it. It does not produce the same amount of tanning as 510 Pyro. I'll have to see how the prints turn out.
Hi, My negative turned pink after developing in pyrocat-HD.
Fascinating
@@PictorialPlanet And what is the reason ? Is this normal condition for this developer?
Maybe you should tell us more?
@@PictorialPlanet Triggered in proportion 1+1+200 time 21 minutes 40 seconds no rotation. Interrupted with water and vinegar in the ratio of 50 ml of 10% spirit vinegar to 900 ml of water. Ilford Rapid Fixer. Fomapan 100
Was this your first time using the pyrocat?
JOHN -- I saw you got the Pyro Catechol from APC Pure but when I went onto their Website and 'searched PYROCATECHOL' NOTHING CAME UP ----
Try search for catechol. It comes up for me using that name.