I’m 63 and was self employed for years mainly kitchen fitting, I have a lot of sympathy for the young men trying to make it in their own, one young builder did a large house extension for my son which was way cheaper than the dearest quote, I could see midway through the job he realised and said he needed more money, because I understood his situation we gave him what he asked for, on completion we gave him a few grand otherwise he would have barely broke even,luckily we had the money to do this, but like you said in the video some people are heartless and have no empathy, ive been there and it felt great to do the decent thing.
I've been on RUclips for years and this is the first time I've felt compelled to comment. I've been in the trade for nearly 40 years, had some bad times ten years ago and now building my business back up again. When you've made mistakes in the past and lost money you can lose confidence and when that happens you just accept day work. There's no pressure, mistakes won't cost you dearly etc etc but you are only earning enough to live on . I've now started pricing bigger and bigger jobs and I've found it difficult, due to past mistakes and finding that balance again, IE knowing your worth but not pricing yourself out of the market . I love the videos and I found this one extremely helpful and it has given me a great deal of confidence going forward, and i will be implementing your advice so thank you Great stuff Cheers Nigel
FYI I had 2 builders quote on a refurbishment of a 2 bed terrace house. The first quote came in at £62k. Just that figure, no breakdown of costs just £62k. The next builder came in and said to me that sounds quite high. After a few days the second builder called me to say he was concerned as he couldn’t get the quote lower than £75k. He then provided me with a full breakdown of the costs in the quote. I ended up going with the more expensive quote because he kept me informed and sent me the comprehensive quote.
Don't put Roger down! He always looks like that because he's actually a zombie, he died at 90 so you should pay some respect for people that are here but are already dead... #Zombieslivesmatter
For anyone starting out on their own - this is the finest lesson you'll ever be taught. Sound common sense - but so often overlooked by many tradesmen who may well be good at the job itself, but so unprofessional when it comes to pricing, dealing with the public and reading the signs. I left the building trade (fed up with lousy money then, and cold winters,) in the late 70's and went into direct sales for a couple of years. Robin's tactic of giving a very rough guide to price is bang on. In sales it's called a 'trial balloon,' and the reaction you get tells you whether it's worth spending time working out a detailed quote: what's the point, if it's way more than they can - or are prepared to - pay? On the other hand, giving a fixed price there and then is rarely a good idea, and underpricing a job just brings misery - either to yourself, the customer.... or sometimes both. And as he says - answer the bloody phone! (unless you're driving.) Even if you know the number and you don't want the work or that particular job: one day - during the next recession, which the building trade experiences every ten to fifteen years - you may well need that customer.
Totally agree...the amount of times I hear customers say they have rung loads of people for quotes because some haven't answered others have, but have never rung back, or have arranged to see a job and not turned up, etc...thats not being a bad businessman, thats being an idiot who treats potential customers like shit. Just ring them back and say sorry to are too busy...that way they may ring again when you do need work The other thing i wont do is ramp a price up to a ridiculous figure, a take it or leave it price, a customer is only going to get ripped off once... you'll end up with a reputation of being too expensive...equally I wont up the price because they have got a big house with expensive cars on the drive....but conversely, I wont drop prices because they cant afford me. Some people will want a 'deal' no matter what price you weigh in with, fuck em, let em play their games with someone else... I dont knock other trades down when they come to me, I just tell them I want one price off them and the others quoting, and I wont knock them down...the balls in their court then
I was 27 years in a trade where people came to me, but all the principles apply. This video is spot on. If one out of three people didn't walk away when I priced their job then I was too cheap. Also you get a rep for being a bit pricey that filters out the cheapskates and people who want something for nothing.
The best thing about this clip for me is the fact that you fellas actually read the comments and respond... I think honesty is vital in business, if a potential customer thinks you're straight and fair it can win you a job even if you are the most expensive. If a customer doesn't take to you as a person it wont matter how cheap, reliable, or good you are...you ain't getting the job.
@@SkillBuilder conversely, same goes for customers... I've had one or two that I should have walked away from...and ended up getting knocked for a few quid, or messed about for my money...there are a few 'professional' bad payers out there too
I enjoyed this chat. I’m a customer nowadays but I am a construction engineer and property developer. It fascinated me that 15k for a bathroom was a reasonable suggestion and 10k is cheap when I paid 3-4 for the last few I’ve had and this talk was a couple of years ago. Must’ve been a substantial change. Also, the fact that you find it odd that a customer might hold back payment until all the snags are done. I’ve tried paying someone before the snags are done and I always end up finishing it myself because they have no interest when all the cash has been paid. We paid a builder we know weekly religiously and it worked really well. I would’ve preferred a job price but that’s how he likes to work so I didn’t really know how long it was going to take. At the moment I’m trying to get jobs done as cheap as possible whilst making sure the work is done right. When getting people in for quotes it’s incredible how many don’t turn up so we have to get extra ones in to compensate so I can get my comparative prices and opinions. One guy will say something is fine while another will say it’s absolutely not fine. One guy will price the job at 25k and one will price it at 15k for seemingly the same thing. A customer has to somehow work out what to do. You either become an overnight expert in the job which I have had to do for a few jobs or you pick the most reasonably priced person who you liked. I’ll tell you now, if you don’t send me a quote in a timely manner it says you’re not going to do the job in a timely manner. If you don’t come across as someone who knows what they’re doing when the questions are fired at you I won’t give you the job. If your price is either too high or too low or if your quote just says ‘building work’ you won’t get the job. It amazes me how many quotes I get in which don’t say what the tradesmen is going to do. I end up sending the job list In reply and requesting confirmation that their quotation is for that list of requested works. As ‘building work’ could mean bloody anything. Totally agree with everything said in this as a customer. I just wish tradesmen were less flakey. I had 7 builders in for a house renovation and none of them quoted it. When I asked them why they would all either ignore me or palm me off with excuses. I can only assume there was something about the job that they didn’t like but I have successfully completed that one getting individual trades in myself. It’s a minefield out there.
I have been in business for 35 years and there is so much truth in what you both say and I have made all those mistakes some of which had huge implications in mine and my family’s home life ! a learning experience but better if I’d had at least some insight ,what frustrates me is why do the construction colleges not teach basic business and money skills ? I know lots of people who finished their apprenticeship and were made to be “self employed “ on the old 714 system now cis with absolutely no idea of the implications . This is a really worthwhile video
We just had a kitchen refit, new flooring and new electrical work done. The bloke we went with gave us an estimated cost for completion, but the estimation was 10% above what he said it would probably cost. To account for any issues during the refit he wanted to make sure we had a price from the beginning that wouldn't go up. We paid 50% of the price up front and the rest on full completion. Each stage the builder walked us through what was going on, provided us with receipts for purchased building materials etc, showed us examples of the "extra" work that the 10% estimate was to cover. By the end we paid less than the full estimate, only about 4% of the "extra" was needed for labour/materials etc. Not sure if this is a good way to work, maybe a little convoluted but for us it worked out. We had a top end price we knew wouldn't balloon out of control and in the end we paid less than the full quote and I feel we got good value because the builder took the time to explain what was happening along the way
I am 54 and been a general builder since 16. At 30 I decided to work for myself when I found myself with loads of weekend work. I was always busy but always pricing low to get the work. Now I have changed my approach, I price high and give a high standard of service. its like any industry, there are people who will want to pay peanuts(get work of facebook) there are people who will pay middle of the road and customers who are willing to pay what you are work for a good job. They will recommend you to their friends who will also be prepared to pay what you are worth. Once you price low its hard to lift your prices. If you get a job to price that you are not bothered about doing, price it high. If you get the job, you will learn to love it. I price high and still have 9 months work ahead of me with customers willing to wait. .
This video is absolute gold for someone like me who is employed but wants to take the step to go on their own. Fills me with more confidence! Nice one!!
Hi Roger & Robin, I went to price a job up once and while I was running the tape around the chap said to me do measure in metric or imperial and I replied, no sterling, luckily for me they had a sense of humour. really enjoy looking at all the vids on skill builder and Robins channel. Thanks
Absolutely bang on! I’m just a handyman that does small time building work, I strive to accomplish a good standard of work with honest opinions. I work on an estimate system and seems to not fail me..... but I lose alot of work through tire kickers and folk who ‘thought it would cost less’ months have gone by if not years and they never had the work done. One thing I can say is that it wasn’t my pricing. Listing your wills and wont’s Is crucial! Or you get ‘can you just do this while you have your tool bag out’? Great video , love you guys!
That was LOADED with useful content. My thanks to both of these masters who share so much wisdom, delivered as it should, down the pub, spilling their secrets for us all to benefit. I'd like to say though, I think there is more to discuss here, Rodger and Robin discuss the psychology of pricing and customer service but it would be useful to explore other aspects. -When the relationship between the tradesman and the customer starts to deteriorate. -Drawing the line between familiarity and friend. - Managing the back of the van -Organising supply, time management, keeping on top of tool maintenance. Just a few examples. If you do anymore like this, I'll get the round in. Cheers 👍 Sidney Sausage.
I know this video has been up for a long while but what you guys said in this video is exactly why I had to leave the trade that I truly loved (plumbing) . I was working for a company and doing my own jobs weekends was working since I was 13 plumbing with my father and because you're young pricing any job people try and take the piss. I was only charging day rates but they were jobs that truly interested me. Got to the end of a few jobs completely finished and took my time to do quality work and had to chase people for money. Just ridiculous so now I have a job in a factory doing maintenance making more money with health insurance and bonuses. And I don't have to worry about getting my family all the things they need. It's just so sad that it's so easy for people not to pay you and unless you want to waste a lot of your time and money you won't be seeing it. The only people who were guaranteed to pay you were old age pensioners and to be honest I'd price less for them because they'd be making you dinner while you're there and actually appreciated you not making the whole house look like a bombsite when you left.
The pricing & estimating that goes on between a builder and a customer opposed to that of a plumber and a customer is completely different. Builders are there much longer and there are so many more considerations to factor in. The two processes are not the same. Plumbers are blitz attackers and deal with smaller quotes and profits, the absorption factor is usually nil if something happens. Builders have way more scope for manoeuvring. Lone tradesmen like sparks, tilers and plumbers have to get right when they quote. The difference can be as tight as 20 quid.
Very well said gents! I have been in business for 15 years and now employ 30 odd men. I won’t say what trade I’m in but looking back on all I’ve learned over time, this is a very good video. I’m sure all trades can say they have learned; when you start in business you will work for nothing just got the opportunity for repeat work. But when you’re established and you’re busy, you always get the jobs you don’t want and up price etc..... it’s the confidence of not needing a job that sells. But something my father told me in his business (not the same as mine) always charge the same for every job no matter the client. However each new business owner will have to do a few jobs for cheap, it’s the learning circle. Cheers. Tom
I've been stalking your videos for a while and came across this gem of a video. It all seems spot on to me, especially the parts where you disagree. The world is not black or white, its shades of grey and so both points of view are valid based on the situation. If you were pricing a job your had never tackled before you may not put out a price but if you are lucky enough to say no to jobs and do the ones you like you are probably more likely able to price condition. What is beautiful is this video was made pre-covid and watching it now in January of 2021 it felt odd how close you were sitting together. It just shows how much things have changed and the sooner we get together like this again the better. The interaction here is beautiful and the closeness and friendship struck a chord with me. Thank you and well worth the length of the video.
Totally agree with Robin - I`ve been trading for over 25yrs and thats exactly how I operate, never do day work, its a nightmare - price everything especially when doing extras, then there`s never any confusion between original quoted work and additional work asked for as the job progresses. One thing to add to your list Robin is to know your limitations / Skill ! the amount of work we see where someone has bullshitted their way into a job and clearly doesn`t have a clue what they are doing. Keep up the good work!
I’ve been self employed for 20 years and found this very helpful. So important to quote for what not going to do as well as what you will be doing. You can tell a lot from that first phone call from a customer to wether you blow them off or turn up and give them a price.
Robin is totally spot on with his comment around the 3:00 mark; I've been sussing out & quoting for water service works for over ten years and learnt a long time ago to sort the wheat from the chaff by giving a potential customer an idea of at least a starting price as their expectations can be far off the mark. The tidiness is also bang on!
Funny I took this advice on a couple years ago and it’s worked for me it took time to get out of old habits but now I’m enjoying going to work. So thank you 🙏
Roger & Robin - I watch all your videos with interest but this is very interesting please keep them coming. I run a small Plumbing & Heating business with my son & wife and are very fortunate to have a sound client base of professional wealthy people. We have been going for some years and built our pricing from experience & the type of clients we deal with. We have never wanted to be known as cheap and we are not, however we do offer a service over & above most plumbers in our area and our customer retention shows this. I do feel sorry for anyone trying to build a business and get on the ladder these days. I totally agree with Robin & I have always said it just as important if not more important to state on your quotes what you are not going to do along with exactly what you will be doing for the quoted price.
Iv been self employed for 12 years now, mostly subby work. The last 4 or 5 years iv been pricing alot of my own jobs and iv learnt a lot of these points the hard way, dropped a few clangers and been screwed a few times. These are some great tips and iv learnt a few more from this. I wish I'd have watched this a few years ago. Thanks guys
Hey guys, good advice there, I have been in business for nearly 30 years now, and doing basement conversions for the past 15 years, (Roger you were going to come up north to see us at some point, Back To Basement) so a couple of good tips, 1. you might want to estimate the price in front of the client, however, you state the price 10-15% higher, if the client indicates to you that there are interested in a written quotation, you then quote for the right amount, the client already has an expectation of the inflated price, ones they get the written quote 10-15% less, they will have the impression that your price is fair, 2. Try and get a template for your quotes, you can find some on an online search, it looks more professional to the client, 3. and old trick I use when quoting is when itemizing my quotes I add some pennies to the price, rather than stating round price, ie £359.81 £572.29 it looks as if you have calculated every single factor that made the quote, works for me well :) I hope this helps,
Hello Rubi Good to hear from you after all this time. I am still intending to come and see you. Good tips on pricing. We will return to this subject for sure.
Great video! And delivered really well by you both. More trades need to aspire to be the best not the cheapest, stand firm on your price and get the price that your worth.
New to this channel but I love these chaps. Top class. I’m a huge fan. I’m a strong believer that if you’re polite, tidy, presentable, punctual, reliable and honest, people will pay. As you say, it’s what else you can bring to the job. If it’s a great service, clients will spread the word. I’m just a competent DIYer but would love to be a “Robin”.
This really helped and many tradesmen are not willing to talk about how they price jobs so this was very informative and I will be putting using these tips for sure. Thanks for taking the time to do this pod cast
Could listen to Robin all day long, the man has a wealth of knowledge. I went on my own 12 months ago and definitely prefer price work. If I could be half a good a carpenter as him I would be happy. Will be taking everything in this video on board.
These 2 are cracking craftsmen and business men in there own ways. Can tell Robins got his trade down to a T and really confident and professional in his approach to pricing jobs and most importantly getting paid!!!
Totally agree with both of you. Been a multi trade since I was 18 and now 50. I don’t advertise and already have enough work for the coming year. Still going out tomorrow on a Sunday to price two more jobs so I can pick and choose to earn more money. It’s just not wages you need but insurances, tools, van leases, decent smart work clothes etc. Keep up the good blogs guys. Absolutely fantastic. J
Robin very well explained I'm 72 and been self employed since 1983 it's tough but as you say be straight with the customer and eventually you can sus 90% of them on first meeting the ones I had trouble with are the ones who want a bit knocked off at the end they see what you do an how easy you make it look because of your experience they always think the bonus Is theirs but what they know about the job would fill a book what they don't know would fill a library lot of time to listen you talk proper sense and your skills are second to none
You are bang on guys, I wish I saw this thirty five years ago, but I figured it out quickly along the way. One big thing you forgot to mention , Without sounding too pessimistic. You will wear out quicker in manual work so aim for decent money that will get you retired before 55, Do the job well and they will always pay the premium.
Tbh you both give valuable points.Im with Roger on the fact I never give an on the spot guestamate. I always do a written quote with pictures of the exact job I'm doing or not doing as Robin said also tell them what your not doing ie: we are doing all your guttering but it doesn't include downpipes etc.You have to be completely clear what you are not quoting for and what you quoting for. Good video and always quote for the price you want not what the customer wants! After all we have all got different overheads.
I am a competent DIY man and have been asked to do general handy man work in my local area so far very successful as I try to do the very best quality work I can and my customers have been happy with the results. I only take on small jobs that general trades do want to take on so I am not taking work away from professional tradesmen. Thank you so much for your tutorials they are very helpful and I want to always improve and be more efficient. This video you have done is just what I have been thinking about regarding costs time/materials job details/what you will or wont be doing and it does make a great deal of sense Thank you guys BRILLIANT.
This is some of the best information that a craftsman can have to build his market share on. I have preached the same thing for years and sometime still find myself making the same mistakes. Its a constant balancing act. It all starts with understanding who your client is and what their goals and motivations are. Consistent implementation of core goals & beliefs such as Honesty, Integrity, Commitment to Quality will always setup a path to profitability. I do however understand the anxiety involved in being asked to ball park a job of any real complexity or size. However Robin is correct. Its wise to follow your gut with a number and follow up with a detailed estimate. As a small craftsman contractor myself who is also a single father raising two young kids on my own. I find it almost impossible to keep up with the backlog of estimates. So it is important to be able to identify jobs & clients that worth pursuing. That only comes with experience. And like we always say around here. "By the time you are old enough to know it all. You are too old to remember half of it" LOVED THIS VIDEO! KEEP THEM COMING!
I appreciate Robins position. A lot of people will just be cynical and say he gets the best/big/expensive jobs but the man has put in the time and built his reputation. He deserves all his success. Some kid starting out today needs to put in the time, learn his craft before he can start asking for a premium for his name/brand.
I think we have to acknowledge that living in the Surrey Stockbroker Belt gives you a view of the world that is somewhat distorted. You can get those prices because the money is peanuts and they are putting it into houses that will grow in value so there is no real expenditure, just investment. I went to Bradford with Robin, his first time up North in all his 50 years, and he saw that not everywhere is as affluent.
Personally I follow the relationship advice of Robin - this is key. If I get a bad feeling about a client - that's it I don't quote. I also follow up really quickly when I've been to the job, generally with 2 days - my hit rate is around 50% but I went to 2x jobs on a Friday morning - quoted Friday afternoon and won both. It is tough thought. I'm pretty good on Excel ( like Robin ) but I use a lookup table and have a detailed cost sheet with as many prices as I can for toilets, Basin, baths, showers, doors, timber etc. So I just uses a shortcode and it pulls the material description and the price - all I do is then add the qty and it totaliser it all up - easy peasy ! Robins dead right - 100% materials up front - invoice every week - keep your cash flow good.
Excellent! A well thought out explanation of the hidden costs of building. I recommend this to anybody contemplating having a house built, extension or refurbishment, so that they realise how much preparation is required - and their role in ensuring the success of the project. Cheers, keep them coming.
So agree with everything youve said. I used to try to quote to get jobs but never made money, barely made a wage and sometimes paid to do the job. Im a 58 yo carpenter amd now i give a price and stick to it. I also say what i will do amd wjat a wont do.. great talk this one. We have to stop this undercutting each other. I also do the customer pays materials COD and if its a big job pay me weekly. The moment i dont get paid i dont show up. They ask me where are you, i say im at home.
I enjoy watching Roger’s videos, his pleasant demeanour is matched by his knowledge and skill A few points:- There are plenty of poor performing tradesmen, who over charge, do poor jobs and liquidate their limited company to avoid claims, only to reappear with a new limited company a week later . Roger you can’t have it both ways, unhappy with customers not knowing the going rate for a job and yet be unwilling to provide quotes. Price discovery, requires quotes. Robin if you want payments for your waiting time whilst a customer answers a query, that’s fine. But don’t forget to include for penalty charges for the late delivery of jobs. Long and/or costly jobs may require the customer to pay before the job is complete. Customers should only pay on a schedule of deliverables. Customers need to check the satisfactory completion of a deliverable before payment.
Really great information and obviously well earned and honest. I believe that you MUST meet the potential customer and it is as much so you can size them up as much as they are looking you up and down. Craftsman, tradesman, artisan whatever you call yourself if you can demonstrate value to the customer your price blurs into the background. Also overnight success takes at least 10 years... thanks guys!
Just watched this again and noticed your comment, Robin, about what it's worth to the client. We did a job last year, built a double garage at the the front of an estate agents house, which was next to a pub. It cost him around 30 grand but he reckoned it had put 100 grand on the value of the house because you couldn't see the pub when you pulled into the drive.
Enjoyed the video . I’m mainly a bathroom fitter and tiler , and would never do a day rate , like you say the customers are clock watching . I price a full job , with a couple of days contingency and and extra few quid for materials I may forgotten about ! I’ve been in business 20 years and have only come in stuck a couple of times .
More of these podcasts episodes please. This is really good content with differing views on important questions for those new and experienced in the industry...
What a fantastic series of podcasts! Really enjoying these and I have to say so much of it resonated with me as a guy in his early 30s running a building firm.
I've been a self employed builder for 30 years, it can be hard, dirty and down right miserable work at times, but even after all this time I still find pricing for jobs to be the most difficult part. I find that the majority of people are only too willing to take a chance on a contractor who gave them the cheapest quote, not the smartest move on their part, but it always comes down to the bottom line with those people (how much money can I save). But not only that, I find the majority of folk expect you to give them a Rolls Royce for the price of a Mini...and when I'm on a job, say like a small kitchen extension, I've literally lost count on how many times a client has said to me "I didn't realise just how much work went into it"....Ha, say no more...but I'd love a sit down with you guys and exchange stories/horror stories....but time over again, I think I'd choose Plumbing, that's a license to print money :)
Green Genes I’m a plumber and if you think that then you’re mistaken. We experience the exact same thing as you. Plumbing materials are expensive and people don’t realise how expensive. Now and again I have customers wanting supply everything. Also very rarely I go for it. They soon stop after I use there supplied materials in about a day or less 🤣. So much work is involved in both our trades that this is not feasible to work like that. The other good one is “you must have a spare pump or whatever else on the van?”. My answer is usually yes but it’s still been paid for so it’s still the price of what you’d get it from the merchants. The difference is that I have it now at 7pm and it’s Saturday night and can do the job now. The cheek of some of these people beggars belief but more and more tradesman are fighting for the bottom price. It’s sad
Great advice. Especially for plumbers/gas installers. I went on the cards for someone just because I needed a break from the race to the bottom. It strikes me that business studies/accountancy should be offered with college courses as I don't think a lot of tradesmen in their first couple of years can't price jobs. If they had the academic background in this is would save 2-3 years out in the school of hard knocks. Look forward to the next video.
On larger jobs, I specify monthly valuations and advise the client that once I've issued a Certificate, they have a strictly limited time to make the payment. On smaller jobs, I specify fortnightly valuations with the same advice to the client that they MUST pay the Certificate within the specified time period. I include all the on and off site management, preliminaries and general and expect contractors to price the prelims as part of the overall tender. For prime cost items and named sub-contractors, I always include "Add for profit, attendance, access provisions, removal of waste and packaging" It reminds me and it reminds the contractor, too.
Thought this was gonna be boring but ended up watching the whole thing somehow. Very interesting subject. Also Bob looks the same way sober as after a few pints 👍😁
As someone on the other side of the fence, a first time home buyer who has never had any work done previously, now wanting to do some renovations on my house, I would hugely agree with the point of giving a rough ball park when you're looking around. Perfect example, I've just had 3 tradesman round to quote stripping back my dining room to brick (the plaster was done in the 70's by the looks of it!) and getting it all ready for decorating. I have no idea what kind of cost I'd be looking at, I based a guess in my head around the prices I've paid for small jobs here and there and done some basic multiplying. So I thought it would probably be somewhere in the £2k range. So when the quotes all came in 3 weeks later at £4.3k - £6.6k, I was blown away. Obviously I was miles out on my expectations of costs of things. But if they said when they were round that is was going to be around £5k I would of told them straight away don't worry about putting the time and energy in to quoting it because I'm not in a position to pay that kind of price yet. Managing expectations is so important. Giving someone a ballpark figure doesn't automatically mean they're going to be disappointed if it comes back higher, realistically nobody can ever expect a quote to come back lower than a ball park, but just making them aware that it's a very rough estimate and could very likely be more will stop (reasonable) people from getting annoyed that it's gone up. As for the racing to the bottom, I think you need to weigh up what kind of client you're dealing with. I imagine they'll fall into two camps, the people that really don't care about it and just need it done and so want the cheapest price possible or the people that it's their home and they want it to be done to a high standard and as such are far more concerned with having a good rapport with the contractor and feeling like they are an individual they can trust to put the passion into the job. I'm one of the later clients and I would much rather pay a higher price for someone that I feel I can trust to do the best possible job and give me good service all the way through.
This is a great video, your advice about turning down jobs is spot on. Its taken me years to get confident at doing this. I like an easy life so now basicly work day rate for about six regular clients. i make a decent living, but not a great profit. The advantage is i know my clients so get paid reliability and dont have to spend time priceing new work constantly. I like to think im good at what i do but as a business owner im not very motivated.
I agree with everything you said Roger.Im a plumber and refuse to price jobs anymore for the simple reason people go for the cheapest quote which is impossible to meet without cutting corners.
Great video gent's I'm working as a self employed staircase installer in melbourne Australia And have to price jobs every week. My best piece of advise would be don't be afraid to spend other people's money. Price it at a level which you are happy to work for. If you get the contract happy day's If not you could have possibly saved yourself from a real headache!
Great video. Please do more like this. It’s funny how many builders don’t like talking about pricing as they’re worried about giving too much away but it’s so important
Very good advice. There is a fine balance of pricing to make sure you make a healthy profit and have a safety net tp cover unforseen circumstances that cannot be charged as extras..weather etc. The flip side is that you dont want to price yourself out of tbe job which can happen sometimes. Basically experience will let you make some educated guesses and rationalise a quote meaning you have enough profit in it but your still providing a competetive quote which is good for you winning jobs plus also for your client as none of us should want to overcharge. Unfortunately the best way to learn this is by making the mistakes and gaining that knowledge. I would have loved to have seen this vid when i started out though so a great help for tjose starting put now!
Absolutely brilliant information. I've been on the tools just over 20 years. Like you say I'm good with my hands not great at business. I'm a heritage lime plasterer This video answers so many questions intelligently and to the point. I'm looking forward to future podcast. Thanks guys
I've watched all of these in reverse order. Brilliant conversations and lots of great advice. You two work well together. Even though I'm in a completely different world (virtual tour photography), many of the same issues apply in regards to quoting, building relationships, pricing up jobs etc. Keep up the good work and I do think the pub is the best setting for these types of conversations.
Absolutely correct. Ive made all the mistakes highlighted in this podcast. Now, finally at 57, i've got wiser. I'm a competent neat all round Carpenter and Joiner, yet now I dilute myself and just do snagging type repair jobs...and make more money. And the best thing of all is my 20 year old son is at University studying Architectural Engineering, with the career as an Architect in waiting. Robin and Roger are proper craftsmen, and know their trade inside out.
Amazing! Everything you guys said its true! In the UK now people want a job done and customers suggest prices based on what they feel its worth. Its gone maaaaaad! Sometimes you are made to work for far less and it dont work out.
Thank you for sharing this, seems like no building channels on youtube are talking about the ins and outs of quoting jobs ! And also something no one teaches you when your trying become a builder/business! Just one of those things you've gotta jump into and hope for the best i suppose !
Man I'm learning some really great stuff from you fellas. Very educational to someone who is just learning how to work for themselves and start there own business, company. Time well spent.
A wonderful open conversation about a topic that rarely gets discussed. Well done Roger and Robin! Thank you for some great tips. Looking forward to the next podcast!
Thanks guys really interesting video. It's a competitive industry but I have found that more and more people are looking for a quality job more than a cheap one. And it's true as you say you almost have to sell yourself before you 'sell' the price. Love the idea of giving them and ball park straight away. I've always had Rogers approach but may just try that way on the next job and see what happens. I find pricing the hardest part of the job. So really appreciate the video. thanks guys
Trick I find useful is to try and gauge the clients budget for a project on the initial phone call. There’s a lot of tyre kickers out there and it helps to weed them out and saves you wasting your time to go and see them. Also helps to give the client an option or understanding of what can and can’t be achieved within their budget.
When we moved into our house in 1988 we wanted a rear extension done, planned by an architect. The builders we chose were good, though not the cheapest on price, but they detailed in what they would do and what they wouldn't, plus their head office was within walking distance. That closeness proved to be beneficial, because each time an invoice was presented I was there with the cheque the same day. That was a revelation to them and served as a spur to continue the job with alacrity. It was so important to converse regularly with the actual builders. Communication and trust works both ways. We got the extension we wanted, within budget and on time. Mind you, it cost a few gallons of tea, which wasn't in the estimate or quote! lol. So a very informative and confirmatory video. Thank you both.
Great video loads of information and a great insight in to how builders think. 90% of clients will have no idea what may actually be involved in the work they need doing is that not the builders job to provide that information (if they want the job) what will be involved cost/materials/time etc and get the customers budget as most have a figure and by educating the client and giving that guarantee, its all about the trust
I came across your podcast because. I have a similar situation where I have to price my jobs according to the person and complexity of the job. Sometimes I get undercut from other competitors. But I stay firm on my price because I know what my time is worth. I am always learning from mistakes and adjusting. Thanks for the informative talk.
Top videos lads. My input is specialise in something, find your niche and read up on it, continually strive to know more about it and be the best in that field. Eat sleep and drink it. Learn to communicate with your customer. You are correct Roger, learn to walk away from a customer when your gut tells you it's not right. Go and learn how to estimate, maybe its a BTEC diploma etc on an evening course. Keep your jobs written up on the pc and your prices and materials along with time taken. Next time you have a similar job you can look back to a similar job. From this you can calculate your linear or square metre rates. Join an industry body like Master Builders etc. and they can help with legals, contracts, health and safety etc. Get all variations from the original work signed off by the customer before doing them, otherwise don't do them, a college lecturer used to say there were better ways to go broke than not getting paid for work you have done like sitting on the beach. Cheers 👍
One way to quickly determine what type of client, project & level of quality you are facing is to directly ask the client. "Do you want to buy a Mercedes or a Fiat? And when they ask why, you tell them its because you are a Mercedes dealer and you dont sell Fiats. So if thats what they are looking for then they might need to keep looking. I find that it is a good way to let the client know that you are a CRAFTSMAN and not a handyman or fly by night contractor. At that point price negotiations go away & design & schedule become the focus. Because then the expectations are set for pricing before you even bid or ball park.
Some incredible advise here. I've just gone self employed after Christmas and have been struggling to see profit due to incorrect pricing methods. I've now got a big page of notes from this and will try and apply the methods in the future!
Best advice I was given was to ask the customer what they wanted to pay for the job. Ask something like "what budget have you allowed for this?" or "we have different options to suit different price ranges, what we're you hoping to spend on this?". I've actually been able to price jobs significantly higher that I first thought as a result of their answers. For example on one job I was think €2.5k for cabinetry and the customer said they were expecting to pay around €7k. We increased the quality/standards and agreed on €6.5k. Customers happy and I'm happy. Try it, it works!
Not a bad idea. I'm new to quoting and business in general. Quoting for jobs is the part I have no clue about. I'll try this method and see how it goes 👍
Thank you guys im a chippy & I'm starting out! I have my own business and I was thinking about pricing etc, ur advise is soo timely & fantastic, I have under priced myself soo many times & now Im soo glad of this advise! Pls do more videos!
Totally agree, when running a business there must be a profit! When I’m submitting the estimates I always make clients aware that there is plenty involved when doing the building project. There are a lot of cheap and lashy builders out there and I’ve been undercut plenty of times, but if people are not prepared to pay for the quality then they should not get it!
I would like to thank you both for putting this out there. It was a rainy day here in Pennsylvania, one if the 25 that need to be accounted for. I did job pricing today which is amazing to me that this came up in my feed. I can agree with you both about the "ballpark" issue. I do both things you both spoke of. I totally loved this my friends.
Found this really helpful thanks a lot. I'm a 25 year old brickie, self employed. Not doing many of my own jobs yet as I am working labour only for a company building houses but I am eager to do quotes and gain more experience in my own work. Found this really educational and insightful, thank you!
Good Luck. A brickie near me (Manchester U.K.) just quoted me £15 sqmtr Blockwork and £650 per 1000 Brickwork....(roughly... dependant on brick size...60 to 70 bricks per sqmtr so, 14 to 16 sqmts per 1000 bricks, works out about £40 to £46 sqmtr). May help you out.
Excellent idea for doing this chaps. I like all your ideas here and i have been through much of what you are talking about here. I think the best advice i can add is. Learn your market clientele and don't give a price to a person who is getting 4-5 quotes.
Truth was shared here Thanks I own a small remodeling business and I agree with the gentleman you price condition and you can tell when you look in somebody in the face if that’s going to be within their realm
Brillant video podcast. This has helped me as i am at a point of going out on my own and building own company. Its great to hear first hand experience and knowledge. Look foward to watching the next one.
Interesting podcast lads. I have been self employed for 16 years now and still I find myself trying to do people favors all the time as I am worried that my prices will be too high. Think I might have to take a good look at the situation and learn to knock back the jobs that just will not make me any money at all. Time to get ruthless :)
Hi Dan I have just read a quote from Warren Buffet who says that the mark of a really succesful person is their ability to say 'No' more often. I think y the time you learn that lesson it is often too late. Give it a go for a few weeks/months and see what difference it makes to your business and your job satisfaction.
Absolutely loved your podcast, as all your videos, I am a bricklayer and I had a chuckle when Robin said he wouldn't like his son(if he had one) in the trade. keep up the good work guys.
Listening to two professionals in the industry chat about the different topics you talk about is brilliant to listen to for me. I'm coming into the industry at the age of 26 and it's been difficult so far. A topic I want to know about is 'Do employers care about NVQ qualifications or Diploma qualifications or are they just concerned with experience. - Carpentry and Joinery wise
If it helps, I’ve been to two job interviews, mentioned I have my carpentry certificates and they said we don’t need to see them. Pisses me off tbh, it kinda makes me feel like why are you employing me.
really good points on this chaps, Robin has it pretty much bang on, but in my opinion could improve the pricing margin easily by sharing the spreadsheet with the client, the columns with the profit margin % and the error allowance could be hidden before printing off. There is a fair amount of mistrust in the industry from both sides, tradesmen wonder about being paid etc and the buyer worries about quality of work and time taken to complete. A good list "in my industry its called a statement of work" not only helps the tradesman price it properly, but also gives a lot of confidence to the buyer that the job is going to be done on time and to a good standard. It also helps in the eventuality of disagreements, for example "foundation dig uncovers a drain that requires a lot of extra work! without a statement of work the client may just say " you priced the extension as x get on with it" whereas with the statement of work, it becomes another line item that carries a price! and also a time delay. me personally , if i had three quotes to build an extension and one was with a complete statement of work and the other two were just quotes , i would definitely go with the statement of work guy even if he was more expensive (within reason) so extension quote 45k and 46k for example and full statement of work quote for 50k i would pay the 50k as it gives a lot more peace of mind. Also the statement of work approach allows a tradesman to build in payment points and also map out assumptions or exemptions (this protects the tradesman against unseen horrors biting)
Very good and very informative I worked for myself for about 2 years and eventually gave up because of the people I was working for mainly.. They want you to do the work but paying is another thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! They don't realise you have a van to pay for tools to buy and look after and all the sundries screws nut bolts sealants and the list just goes on. I have written money off when people think they can rip you off. Working for yourself is very tough and you learn quick. In the end I had debt luckily not a lot I sold my van and got a job on PAYE I still get shivers when I think about working for myself.
I’m 63 and was self employed for years mainly kitchen fitting, I have a lot of sympathy for the young men trying to make it in their own, one young builder did a large house extension for my son which was way cheaper than the dearest quote, I could see midway through the job he realised and said he needed more money, because I understood his situation we gave him what he asked for, on completion we gave him a few grand otherwise he would have barely broke even,luckily we had the money to do this, but like you said in the video some people are heartless and have no empathy, ive been there and it felt great to do the decent thing.
Bang on chaps
Not many auld cnts like us left in the world
I've been on RUclips for years and this is the first time I've felt compelled to comment. I've been in the trade for nearly 40 years, had some bad times ten years ago and now building my business back up again. When you've made mistakes in the past and lost money you can lose confidence and when that happens you just accept day work.
There's no pressure, mistakes won't cost you dearly etc etc but you are only earning enough to live on
. I've now started pricing bigger and bigger jobs and I've found it difficult, due to past mistakes and finding that balance again, IE knowing your worth but not pricing yourself out of the market
. I love the videos and I found this one extremely helpful and it has given me a great deal of confidence going forward, and i will be implementing your advice so thank you
Great stuff
Cheers
Nigel
This is probably the best 27.41 minutes I’ve ever spent listening to people who know their stuff , thank you so much Robin and Roger
This is probably the best compliment we've ever had, thanks Bob!
Excellent pair of tradesmen. Both perfectionists in there trades.
FYI I had 2 builders quote on a refurbishment of a 2 bed terrace house. The first quote came in at £62k. Just that figure, no breakdown of costs just £62k. The next builder came in and said to me that sounds quite high. After a few days the second builder called me to say he was concerned as he couldn’t get the quote lower than £75k. He then provided me with a full breakdown of the costs in the quote. I ended up going with the more expensive quote because he kept me informed and sent me the comprehensive quote.
Robin is class. Could listen to him all day, find myself just agreeing with everything he says. Roger you look half cut lol
Don't put Roger down! He always looks like that because he's actually a zombie, he died at 90 so you should pay some respect for people that are here but are already dead... #Zombieslivesmatter
For anyone starting out on their own - this is the finest lesson you'll ever be taught. Sound common sense - but so often overlooked by many tradesmen who may well be good at the job itself, but so unprofessional when it comes to pricing, dealing with the public and reading the signs. I left the building trade (fed up with lousy money then, and cold winters,) in the late 70's and went into direct sales for a couple of years. Robin's tactic of giving a very rough guide to price is bang on. In sales it's called a 'trial balloon,' and the reaction you get tells you whether it's worth spending time working out a detailed quote: what's the point, if it's way more than they can - or are prepared to - pay? On the other hand, giving a fixed price there and then is rarely a good idea, and underpricing a job just brings misery - either to yourself, the customer.... or sometimes both. And as he says - answer the bloody phone! (unless you're driving.) Even if you know the number and you don't want the work or that particular job: one day - during the next recession, which the building trade experiences every ten to fifteen years - you may well need that customer.
Totally agree...the amount of times I hear customers say they have rung loads of people for quotes because some haven't answered others have, but have never rung back, or have arranged to see a job and not turned up, etc...thats not being a bad businessman, thats being an idiot who treats potential customers like shit.
Just ring them back and say sorry to are too busy...that way they may ring again when you do need work
The other thing i wont do is ramp a price up to a ridiculous figure, a take it or leave it price, a customer is only going to get ripped off once... you'll end up with a reputation of being too expensive...equally I wont up the price because they have got a big house with expensive cars on the drive....but conversely, I wont drop prices because they cant afford me.
Some people will want a 'deal' no matter what price you weigh in with, fuck em, let em play their games with someone else... I dont knock other trades down when they come to me, I just tell them I want one price off them and the others quoting, and I wont knock them down...the balls in their court then
I was 27 years in a trade where people came to me, but all the principles apply. This video is spot on. If one out of three people didn't walk away when I priced their job then I was too cheap. Also you get a rep for being a bit pricey that filters out the cheapskates and people who want something for nothing.
You are so right, price to lose jobs not to get them
The best thing about this clip for me is the fact that you fellas actually read the comments and respond...
I think honesty is vital in business, if a potential customer thinks you're straight and fair it can win you a job even if you are the most expensive.
If a customer doesn't take to you as a person it wont matter how cheap, reliable, or good you are...you ain't getting the job.
Yep you are dead right there. I think we are all programmed that way. If you don't like the look of someone then you have to trust that.
@@SkillBuilder conversely, same goes for customers... I've had one or two that I should have walked away from...and ended up getting knocked for a few quid, or messed about for my money...there are a few 'professional' bad payers out there too
I enjoyed this chat.
I’m a customer nowadays but I am a construction engineer and property developer.
It fascinated me that 15k for a bathroom was a reasonable suggestion and 10k is cheap when I paid 3-4 for the last few I’ve had and this talk was a couple of years ago. Must’ve been a substantial change. Also, the fact that you find it odd that a customer might hold back payment until all the snags are done. I’ve tried paying someone before the snags are done and I always end up finishing it myself because they have no interest when all the cash has been paid.
We paid a builder we know weekly religiously and it worked really well. I would’ve preferred a job price but that’s how he likes to work so I didn’t really know how long it was going to take.
At the moment I’m trying to get jobs done as cheap as possible whilst making sure the work is done right. When getting people in for quotes it’s incredible how many don’t turn up so we have to get extra ones in to compensate so I can get my comparative prices and opinions. One guy will say something is fine while another will say it’s absolutely not fine. One guy will price the job at 25k and one will price it at 15k for seemingly the same thing.
A customer has to somehow work out what to do. You either become an overnight expert in the job which I have had to do for a few jobs or you pick the most reasonably priced person who you liked.
I’ll tell you now, if you don’t send me a quote in a timely manner it says you’re not going to do the job in a timely manner. If you don’t come across as someone who knows what they’re doing when the questions are fired at you I won’t give you the job. If your price is either too high or too low or if your quote just says ‘building work’ you won’t get the job. It amazes me how many quotes I get in which don’t say what the tradesmen is going to do. I end up sending the job list In reply and requesting confirmation that their quotation is for that list of requested works. As ‘building work’ could mean bloody anything.
Totally agree with everything said in this as a customer. I just wish tradesmen were less flakey. I had 7 builders in for a house renovation and none of them quoted it. When I asked them why they would all either ignore me or palm me off with excuses. I can only assume there was something about the job that they didn’t like but I have successfully completed that one getting individual trades in myself.
It’s a minefield out there.
I have been in business for 35 years and there is so much truth in what you both say and I have made all those mistakes some of which had huge implications in mine and my family’s home life ! a learning experience but better if I’d had at least some insight ,what frustrates me is why do the construction colleges not teach basic business and money skills ? I know lots of people who finished their apprenticeship and were made to be “self employed “ on the old 714 system now cis with absolutely no idea of the implications .
This is a really worthwhile video
We just had a kitchen refit, new flooring and new electrical work done. The bloke we went with gave us an estimated cost for completion, but the estimation was 10% above what he said it would probably cost. To account for any issues during the refit he wanted to make sure we had a price from the beginning that wouldn't go up.
We paid 50% of the price up front and the rest on full completion. Each stage the builder walked us through what was going on, provided us with receipts for purchased building materials etc, showed us examples of the "extra" work that the 10% estimate was to cover.
By the end we paid less than the full estimate, only about 4% of the "extra" was needed for labour/materials etc.
Not sure if this is a good way to work, maybe a little convoluted but for us it worked out. We had a top end price we knew wouldn't balloon out of control and in the end we paid less than the full quote and I feel we got good value because the builder took the time to explain what was happening along the way
I am 54 and been a general builder since 16. At 30 I decided to work for myself when I found myself with loads of weekend work. I was always busy but always pricing low to get the work. Now I have changed my approach, I price high and give a high standard of service. its like any industry, there are people who will want to pay peanuts(get work of facebook) there are people who will pay middle of the road and customers who are willing to pay what you are work for a good job. They will recommend you to their friends who will also be prepared to pay what you are worth. Once you price low its hard to lift your prices. If you get a job to price that you are not bothered about doing, price it high. If you get the job, you will learn to love it. I price high and still have 9 months work ahead of me with customers willing to wait.
.
This video is absolute gold for someone like me who is employed but wants to take the step to go on their own. Fills me with more confidence! Nice one!!
Hi Roger & Robin, I went to price a job up once and while I was running the tape around the chap said to me do measure in metric or imperial and I replied, no sterling, luckily for me they had a sense of humour. really enjoy looking at all the vids on skill builder and Robins channel. Thanks
Absolutely bang on! I’m just a handyman that does small time building work, I strive to accomplish a good standard of work with honest opinions. I work on an estimate system and seems to not fail me..... but I lose alot of work through tire kickers and folk who ‘thought it would cost less’ months have gone by if not years and they never had the work done. One thing I can say is that it wasn’t my pricing. Listing your wills and wont’s Is crucial! Or you get ‘can you just do this while you have your tool bag out’? Great video , love you guys!
That was LOADED with useful content.
My thanks to both of these masters who share so much wisdom, delivered as it should, down the pub, spilling their secrets for us all to benefit.
I'd like to say though, I think there is more to discuss here, Rodger and Robin discuss the psychology of pricing and customer service but it would be useful to explore other aspects.
-When the relationship between the tradesman and the customer starts to deteriorate.
-Drawing the line between familiarity and friend.
- Managing the back of the van
-Organising supply, time management, keeping on top of tool maintenance.
Just a few examples.
If you do anymore like this, I'll get the round in.
Cheers 👍
Sidney Sausage.
I know this video has been up for a long while but what you guys said in this video is exactly why I had to leave the trade that I truly loved (plumbing) . I was working for a company and doing my own jobs weekends was working since I was 13 plumbing with my father and because you're young pricing any job people try and take the piss. I was only charging day rates but they were jobs that truly interested me. Got to the end of a few jobs completely finished and took my time to do quality work and had to chase people for money. Just ridiculous so now I have a job in a factory doing maintenance making more money with health insurance and bonuses. And I don't have to worry about getting my family all the things they need. It's just so sad that it's so easy for people not to pay you and unless you want to waste a lot of your time and money you won't be seeing it. The only people who were guaranteed to pay you were old age pensioners and to be honest I'd price less for them because they'd be making you dinner while you're there and actually appreciated you not making the whole house look like a bombsite when you left.
The pricing & estimating that goes on between a builder and a customer opposed to that of a plumber and a customer is completely different. Builders are there much longer and there are so many more considerations to factor in. The two processes are not the same. Plumbers are blitz attackers and deal with smaller quotes and profits, the absorption factor is usually nil if something happens. Builders have way more scope for manoeuvring. Lone tradesmen like sparks, tilers and plumbers have to get right when they quote. The difference can be as tight as 20 quid.
Very well said gents! I have been in business for 15 years and now employ 30 odd men. I won’t say what trade I’m in but looking back on all I’ve learned over time, this is a very good video.
I’m sure all trades can say they have learned; when you start in business you will work for nothing just got the opportunity for repeat work. But when you’re established and you’re busy, you always get the jobs you don’t want and up price etc..... it’s the confidence of not needing a job that sells. But something my father told me in his business (not the same as mine) always charge the same for every job no matter the client.
However each new business owner will have to do a few jobs for cheap, it’s the learning circle. Cheers. Tom
I've been stalking your videos for a while and came across this gem of a video. It all seems spot on to me, especially the parts where you disagree. The world is not black or white, its shades of grey and so both points of view are valid based on the situation. If you were pricing a job your had never tackled before you may not put out a price but if you are lucky enough to say no to jobs and do the ones you like you are probably more likely able to price condition.
What is beautiful is this video was made pre-covid and watching it now in January of 2021 it felt odd how close you were sitting together. It just shows how much things have changed and the sooner we get together like this again the better. The interaction here is beautiful and the closeness and friendship struck a chord with me. Thank you and well worth the length of the video.
Totally agree with Robin - I`ve been trading for over 25yrs and thats exactly how I operate, never do day work, its a nightmare - price everything especially when doing extras, then there`s never any confusion between original quoted work and additional work asked for as the job progresses.
One thing to add to your list Robin is to know your limitations / Skill ! the amount of work we see where someone has bullshitted their way into a job and clearly doesn`t have a clue what they are doing. Keep up the good work!
I’ve been self employed for 20 years and found this very helpful. So important to quote for what not going to do as well as what you will be doing. You can tell a lot from that first phone call from a customer to wether you blow them off or turn up and give them a price.
Robin is totally spot on with his comment around the 3:00 mark; I've been sussing out & quoting for water service works for over ten years and learnt a long time ago to sort the wheat from the chaff by giving a potential customer an idea of at least a starting price as their expectations can be far off the mark. The tidiness is also bang on!
I like what you said about accepting jobs of what you like to do. When you love what you do, you will never work a day when you do it.
@7:00 have to agree, people buy from people. I’d buy from Robin all day long as he comes across as honest and friendly
Funny I took this advice on a couple years ago and it’s worked for me it took time to get out of old habits but now I’m enjoying going to work. So thank you 🙏
Roger & Robin - I watch all your videos with interest but this is very interesting please keep them coming. I run a small Plumbing & Heating business with my son & wife and are very fortunate to have a sound client base of professional wealthy people. We have been going for some years and built our pricing from experience & the type of clients we deal with. We have never wanted to be known as cheap and we are not, however we do offer a service over & above most plumbers in our area and our customer retention shows this. I do feel sorry for anyone trying to build a business and get on the ladder these days. I totally agree with Robin & I have always said it just as important if not more important to state on your quotes what you are not going to do along with exactly what you will be doing for the quoted price.
Iv been self employed for 12 years now, mostly subby work. The last 4 or 5 years iv been pricing alot of my own jobs and iv learnt a lot of these points the hard way, dropped a few clangers and been screwed a few times. These are some great tips and iv learnt a few more from this. I wish I'd have watched this a few years ago. Thanks guys
Hey guys, good advice there, I have been in business for nearly 30 years now, and doing basement conversions for the past 15 years, (Roger you were going to come up north to see us at some point, Back To Basement)
so a couple of good tips,
1. you might want to estimate the price in front of the client, however, you state the price 10-15% higher, if the client indicates to you that there are interested in a written quotation, you then quote for the right amount, the client already has an expectation of the inflated price, ones they get the written quote 10-15% less, they will have the impression that your price is fair,
2. Try and get a template for your quotes, you can find some on an online search, it looks more professional to the client,
3. and old trick I use when quoting is when itemizing my quotes I add some pennies to the price, rather than stating round price,
ie £359.81 £572.29 it looks as if you have calculated every single factor that made the quote, works for me well :)
I hope this helps,
Hello Rubi
Good to hear from you after all this time. I am still intending to come and see you. Good tips on pricing. We will return to this subject for sure.
Great video! And delivered really well by you both. More trades need to aspire to be the best not the cheapest, stand firm on your price and get the price that your worth.
These are my go to guys when it comes to plumbing and building. Priceless information in all their videos. I’m not a professional but love DIY.
New to this channel but I love these chaps. Top class. I’m a huge fan. I’m a strong believer that if you’re polite, tidy, presentable, punctual, reliable and honest, people will pay. As you say, it’s what else you can bring to the job. If it’s a great service, clients will spread the word. I’m just a competent DIYer but would love to be a “Robin”.
This really helped and many tradesmen are not willing to talk about how they price jobs so this was very informative and I will be putting using these tips for sure. Thanks for taking the time to do this pod cast
Totally agree, I've spent 1/4 of my working life routing around the van. Very honest of yourself to speak on the subject
Could listen to Robin all day long, the man has a wealth of knowledge. I went on my own 12 months ago and definitely prefer price work. If I could be half a good a carpenter as him I would be happy. Will be taking everything in this video on board.
These 2 are cracking craftsmen and business men in there own ways. Can tell Robins got his trade down to a T and really confident and professional in his approach to pricing jobs and most importantly getting paid!!!
Totally agree with both of you. Been a multi trade since I was 18 and now 50. I don’t advertise and already have enough work for the coming year. Still going out tomorrow on a Sunday to price two more jobs so I can pick and choose to earn more money. It’s just not wages you need but insurances, tools, van leases, decent smart work clothes etc. Keep up the good blogs guys. Absolutely fantastic. J
Very helpful stuff here. I struggle with pricing and the insights here are priceless!!
Cheers guys.
This guys really good. He knows his value and defines his own worth.
Robin very well explained I'm 72 and been self employed since 1983 it's tough but as you say be straight with the customer and eventually you can sus 90% of them on first meeting the ones I had trouble with are the ones who want a bit knocked off at the end they see what you do an how easy you make it look because of your experience they always think the bonus Is theirs but what they know about the job would fill a book what they don't know would fill a library lot of time to listen you talk proper sense and your skills are second to none
You are bang on guys, I wish I saw this thirty five years ago, but I figured it out quickly along the way. One big thing you forgot to mention , Without sounding too pessimistic. You will wear out quicker in manual work so aim for decent money that will get you retired before 55, Do the job well and they will always pay the premium.
Tbh you both give valuable points.Im with Roger on the fact I never give an on the spot guestamate. I always do a written quote with pictures of the exact job I'm doing or not doing as Robin said also tell them what your not doing ie: we are doing all your guttering but it doesn't include downpipes etc.You have to be completely clear what you are not quoting for and what you quoting for. Good video and always quote for the price you want not what the customer wants! After all we have all got different overheads.
I am a competent DIY man and have been asked to do general handy man work in my local area so far very successful as I try to do the very best quality work I can and my customers have been happy with the results.
I only take on small jobs that general trades do want to take on so I am not taking work away from professional tradesmen.
Thank you so much for your tutorials they are very helpful and I want to always improve and be more efficient.
This video you have done is just what I have been thinking about regarding costs time/materials job details/what you will or wont be doing and it does make a great deal of sense Thank you guys BRILLIANT.
This is some of the best information that a craftsman can have to build his market share on. I have preached the same thing for years and sometime still find myself making the same mistakes. Its a constant balancing act. It all starts with understanding who your client is and what their goals and motivations are. Consistent implementation of core goals & beliefs such as Honesty, Integrity, Commitment to Quality will always setup a path to profitability.
I do however understand the anxiety involved in being asked to ball park a job of any real complexity or size. However Robin is correct. Its wise to follow your gut with a number and follow up with a detailed estimate. As a small craftsman contractor myself who is also a single father raising two young kids on my own. I find it almost impossible to keep up with the backlog of estimates. So it is important to be able to identify jobs & clients that worth pursuing. That only comes with experience. And like we always say around here. "By the time you are old enough to know it all. You are too old to remember half of it" LOVED THIS VIDEO! KEEP THEM COMING!
40 years a Chippy still skint, very enjoyable talk,thanks
I appreciate Robins position. A lot of people will just be cynical and say he gets the best/big/expensive jobs but the man has put in the time and built his reputation. He deserves all his success. Some kid starting out today needs to put in the time, learn his craft before he can start asking for a premium for his name/brand.
I think we have to acknowledge that living in the Surrey Stockbroker Belt gives you a view of the world that is somewhat distorted. You can get those prices because the money is peanuts and they are putting it into houses that will grow in value so there is no real expenditure, just investment. I went to Bradford with Robin, his first time up North in all his 50 years, and he saw that not everywhere is as affluent.
@@SkillBuilder did it he say, ‘it’s grim oop north!’
Personally I follow the relationship advice of Robin - this is key. If I get a bad feeling about a client - that's it I don't quote. I also follow up really quickly when I've been to the job, generally with 2 days - my hit rate is around 50% but I went to 2x jobs on a Friday morning - quoted Friday afternoon and won both. It is tough thought. I'm pretty good on Excel ( like Robin ) but I use a lookup table and have a detailed cost sheet with as many prices as I can for toilets, Basin, baths, showers, doors, timber etc. So I just uses a shortcode and it pulls the material description and the price - all I do is then add the qty and it totaliser it all up - easy peasy !
Robins dead right - 100% materials up front - invoice every week - keep your cash flow good.
Excellent! A well thought out explanation of the hidden costs of building. I recommend this to anybody contemplating having a house built, extension or refurbishment, so that they realise how much preparation is required - and their role in ensuring the success of the project. Cheers, keep them coming.
So agree with everything youve said. I used to try to quote to get jobs but never made money, barely made a wage and sometimes paid to do the job. Im a 58 yo carpenter amd now i give a price and stick to it. I also say what i will do amd wjat a wont do.. great talk this one. We have to stop this undercutting each other. I also do the customer pays materials COD and if its a big job pay me weekly. The moment i dont get paid i dont show up. They ask me where are you, i say im at home.
I enjoy watching Roger’s videos, his pleasant demeanour is matched by his knowledge and skill
A few points:-
There are plenty of poor performing tradesmen, who over charge, do poor jobs and liquidate their limited company to avoid claims, only to reappear with a new limited company a week later
.
Roger you can’t have it both ways, unhappy with customers not knowing the going rate for a job and yet be unwilling to provide quotes. Price discovery, requires quotes.
Robin if you want payments for your waiting time whilst a customer answers a query, that’s fine. But don’t forget to include for penalty charges for the late delivery of jobs.
Long and/or costly jobs may require the customer to pay before the job is complete. Customers should only pay on a schedule of deliverables. Customers need to check the satisfactory completion of a deliverable before payment.
Really great information and obviously well earned and honest. I believe that you MUST meet the potential customer and it is as much so you can size them up as much as they are looking you up and down. Craftsman, tradesman, artisan whatever you call yourself if you can demonstrate value to the customer your price blurs into the background. Also overnight success takes at least 10 years... thanks guys!
Just watched this again and noticed your comment, Robin, about what it's worth to the client. We did a job last year, built a double garage at the the front of an estate agents house, which was next to a pub.
It cost him around 30 grand but he reckoned it had put 100 grand on the value of the house because you couldn't see the pub when you pulled into the drive.
Enjoyed the video . I’m mainly a bathroom fitter and tiler , and would never do a day rate , like you say the customers are clock watching .
I price a full job , with a couple of days contingency and and extra few quid for materials I may forgotten about !
I’ve been in business 20 years and have only come in stuck a couple of times .
More of these podcasts episodes please.
This is really good content with differing views on important questions for those new and experienced in the industry...
What a fantastic series of podcasts! Really enjoying these and I have to say so much of it resonated with me as a guy in his early 30s running a building firm.
I've been a self employed builder for 30 years, it can be hard, dirty and down right miserable work at times, but even after all this time I still find pricing for jobs to be the most difficult part. I find that the majority of people are only too willing to take a chance on a contractor who gave them the cheapest quote, not the smartest move on their part, but it always comes down to the bottom line with those people (how much money can I save). But not only that, I find the majority of folk expect you to give them a Rolls Royce for the price of a Mini...and when I'm on a job, say like a small kitchen extension, I've literally lost count on how many times a client has said to me "I didn't realise just how much work went into it"....Ha, say no more...but I'd love a sit down with you guys and exchange stories/horror stories....but time over again, I think I'd choose Plumbing, that's a license to print money :)
Green Genes I’m a plumber and if you think that then you’re mistaken. We experience the exact same thing as you. Plumbing materials are expensive and people don’t realise how expensive. Now and again I have customers wanting supply everything. Also very rarely I go for it. They soon stop after I use there supplied materials in about a day or less 🤣. So much work is involved in both our trades that this is not feasible to work like that. The other good one is “you must have a spare pump or whatever else on the van?”. My answer is usually yes but it’s still been paid for so it’s still the price of what you’d get it from the merchants. The difference is that I have it now at 7pm and it’s Saturday night and can do the job now. The cheek of some of these people beggars belief but more and more tradesman are fighting for the bottom price. It’s sad
Great advice. Especially for plumbers/gas installers. I went on the cards for someone just because I needed a break from the race to the bottom. It strikes me that business studies/accountancy should be offered with college courses as I don't think a lot of tradesmen in their first couple of years can't price jobs. If they had the academic background in this is would save 2-3 years out in the school of hard knocks. Look forward to the next video.
On larger jobs, I specify monthly valuations and advise the client that once I've issued a Certificate, they have a strictly limited time to make the payment. On smaller jobs, I specify fortnightly valuations with the same advice to the client that they MUST pay the Certificate within the specified time period. I include all the on and off site management, preliminaries and general and expect contractors to price the prelims as part of the overall tender. For prime cost items and named sub-contractors, I always include "Add for profit, attendance, access provisions, removal of waste and packaging" It reminds me and it reminds the contractor, too.
Thought this was gonna be boring but ended up watching the whole thing somehow. Very interesting subject.
Also Bob looks the same way sober as after a few pints 👍😁
As someone on the other side of the fence, a first time home buyer who has never had any work done previously, now wanting to do some renovations on my house, I would hugely agree with the point of giving a rough ball park when you're looking around. Perfect example, I've just had 3 tradesman round to quote stripping back my dining room to brick (the plaster was done in the 70's by the looks of it!) and getting it all ready for decorating. I have no idea what kind of cost I'd be looking at, I based a guess in my head around the prices I've paid for small jobs here and there and done some basic multiplying. So I thought it would probably be somewhere in the £2k range. So when the quotes all came in 3 weeks later at £4.3k - £6.6k, I was blown away. Obviously I was miles out on my expectations of costs of things. But if they said when they were round that is was going to be around £5k I would of told them straight away don't worry about putting the time and energy in to quoting it because I'm not in a position to pay that kind of price yet.
Managing expectations is so important. Giving someone a ballpark figure doesn't automatically mean they're going to be disappointed if it comes back higher, realistically nobody can ever expect a quote to come back lower than a ball park, but just making them aware that it's a very rough estimate and could very likely be more will stop (reasonable) people from getting annoyed that it's gone up.
As for the racing to the bottom, I think you need to weigh up what kind of client you're dealing with. I imagine they'll fall into two camps, the people that really don't care about it and just need it done and so want the cheapest price possible or the people that it's their home and they want it to be done to a high standard and as such are far more concerned with having a good rapport with the contractor and feeling like they are an individual they can trust to put the passion into the job. I'm one of the later clients and I would much rather pay a higher price for someone that I feel I can trust to do the best possible job and give me good service all the way through.
This is a great video, your advice about turning down jobs is spot on. Its taken me years to get confident at doing this.
I like an easy life so now basicly work day rate for about six regular clients. i make a decent living, but not a great profit. The advantage is i know my clients so get paid reliability and dont have to spend time priceing new work constantly.
I like to think im good at what i do but as a business owner im not very motivated.
I agree with everything you said Roger.Im a plumber and refuse to price jobs anymore for the simple reason people go for the cheapest quote which is impossible to meet without cutting corners.
Great video gent's
I'm working as a self employed staircase installer in melbourne Australia
And have to price jobs every week.
My best piece of advise would be don't be afraid to spend other people's money.
Price it at a level which you are happy to work for.
If you get the contract happy day's
If not you could have possibly saved yourself from a real headache!
Great video. Please do more like this. It’s funny how many builders don’t like talking about pricing as they’re worried about giving too much away but it’s so important
Both men are right. I lean towards Rogers mentality. I really avoid giving off the cuff prices, I like to go away and crunch the numbers.
Very good advice. There is a fine balance of pricing to make sure you make a healthy profit and have a safety net tp cover unforseen circumstances that cannot be charged as extras..weather etc. The flip side is that you dont want to price yourself out of tbe job which can happen sometimes. Basically experience will let you make some educated guesses and rationalise a quote meaning you have enough profit in it but your still providing a competetive quote which is good for you winning jobs plus also for your client as none of us should want to overcharge. Unfortunately the best way to learn this is by making the mistakes and gaining that knowledge. I would have loved to have seen this vid when i started out though so a great help for tjose starting put now!
Absolutely brilliant information. I've been on the tools just over 20 years. Like you say I'm good with my hands not great at business. I'm a heritage lime plasterer This video answers so many questions intelligently and to the point. I'm looking forward to future podcast. Thanks guys
I've watched all of these in reverse order. Brilliant conversations and lots of great advice. You two work well together. Even though I'm in a completely different world (virtual tour photography), many of the same issues apply in regards to quoting, building relationships, pricing up jobs etc. Keep up the good work and I do think the pub is the best setting for these types of conversations.
Absolutely correct. Ive made all the mistakes highlighted in this podcast. Now, finally at 57, i've got wiser. I'm a competent neat all round Carpenter and Joiner, yet now I dilute myself and just do snagging type repair jobs...and make more money. And the best thing of all is my 20 year old son is at University studying Architectural Engineering, with the career as an Architect in waiting.
Robin and Roger are proper craftsmen, and know their trade inside out.
Amazing! Everything you guys said its true! In the UK now people want a job done and customers suggest prices based on what they feel its worth. Its gone maaaaaad! Sometimes you are made to work for far less and it dont work out.
Thank you for sharing this, seems like no building channels on youtube are talking about the ins and outs of quoting jobs ! And also something no one teaches you when your trying become a builder/business! Just one of those things you've gotta jump into and hope for the best i suppose !
Man I'm learning some really great stuff from you fellas. Very educational to someone who is just learning how to work for themselves and start there own business, company. Time well spent.
A wonderful open conversation about a topic that rarely gets discussed. Well done Roger and Robin! Thank you for some great tips. Looking forward to the next podcast!
Thanks guys really interesting video. It's a competitive industry but I have found that more and more people are looking for a quality job more than a cheap one. And it's true as you say you almost have to sell yourself before you 'sell' the price. Love the idea of giving them and ball park straight away. I've always had Rogers approach but may just try that way on the next job and see what happens. I find pricing the hardest part of the job. So really appreciate the video. thanks guys
Trick I find useful is to try and gauge the clients budget for a project on the initial phone call. There’s a lot of tyre kickers out there and it helps to weed them out and saves you wasting your time to go and see them.
Also helps to give the client an option or understanding of what can and can’t be achieved within their budget.
When we moved into our house in 1988 we wanted a rear extension done, planned by an architect.
The builders we chose were good, though not the cheapest on price, but they detailed in what they would do and what they wouldn't, plus their head office was within walking distance.
That closeness proved to be beneficial, because each time an invoice was presented I was there with the cheque the same day. That was a revelation to them and served as a spur to continue the job with alacrity. It was so important to converse regularly with the actual builders. Communication and trust works both ways. We got the extension we wanted, within budget and on time. Mind you, it cost a few gallons of tea, which wasn't in the estimate or quote! lol.
So a very informative and confirmatory video. Thank you both.
A lot of people say it is not what the builder charges that hurts but what is has cost in tea and sugar... The hidden extra.
Great video loads of information and a great insight in to how builders think. 90% of clients will have no idea what may actually be involved in the work they need doing is that not the builders job to provide that information (if they want the job) what will be involved cost/materials/time etc and get the customers budget as most have a figure and by educating the client and giving that guarantee, its all about the trust
Too true I've been daft enough to tell clients how I'll do it and they've done it themselves 🤔👍
I came across your podcast because. I have a similar situation where I have to price my jobs according to the person and complexity of the job. Sometimes I get undercut from other competitors. But I stay firm on my price because I know what my time is worth. I am always learning from mistakes and adjusting. Thanks for the informative talk.
Top videos lads. My input is specialise in something, find your niche and read up on it, continually strive to know more about it and be the best in that field. Eat sleep and drink it. Learn to communicate with your customer. You are correct Roger, learn to walk away from a customer when your gut tells you it's not right. Go and learn how to estimate, maybe its a BTEC diploma etc on an evening course. Keep your jobs written up on the pc and your prices and materials along with time taken. Next time you have a similar job you can look back to a similar job. From this you can calculate your linear or square metre rates. Join an industry body like Master Builders etc. and they can help with legals, contracts, health and safety etc. Get all variations from the original work signed off by the customer before doing them, otherwise don't do them, a college lecturer used to say there were better ways to go broke than not getting paid for work you have done like sitting on the beach. Cheers 👍
One way to quickly determine what type of client, project & level of quality you are facing is to directly ask the client. "Do you want to buy a Mercedes or a Fiat? And when they ask why, you tell them its because you are a Mercedes dealer and you dont sell Fiats. So if thats what they are looking for then they might need to keep looking. I find that it is a good way to let the client know that you are a CRAFTSMAN and not a handyman or fly by night contractor. At that point price negotiations go away & design & schedule become the focus. Because then the expectations are set for pricing before you even bid or ball park.
Some incredible advise here. I've just gone self employed after Christmas and have been struggling to see profit due to incorrect pricing methods. I've now got a big page of notes from this and will try and apply the methods in the future!
Brandon
Price the jobs to lose them and the ones you get will pay you well.
@@SkillBuilder great tip , like weeding out 👍
Best advice I was given was to ask the customer what they wanted to pay for the job. Ask something like "what budget have you allowed for this?" or "we have different options to suit different price ranges, what we're you hoping to spend on this?". I've actually been able to price jobs significantly higher that I first thought as a result of their answers. For example on one job I was think €2.5k for cabinetry and the customer said they were expecting to pay around €7k. We increased the quality/standards and agreed on €6.5k. Customers happy and I'm happy. Try it, it works!
Not a bad idea. I'm new to quoting and business in general. Quoting for jobs is the part I have no clue about. I'll try this method and see how it goes 👍
@@moisty254 did you try it ?
@@rahmellparmley2510 not yet I'm in the middle of remote works and home renovations
Errr.... ripping people off / greedy?
@@sugarplumfairy101 Who knows? Perhaps you just cant afford the standard of work he produces....
Thank you guys im a chippy & I'm starting out! I have my own business and I was thinking about pricing etc, ur advise is soo timely & fantastic, I have under priced myself soo many times & now Im soo glad of this advise! Pls do more videos!
Totally agree, when running a business there must be a profit! When I’m submitting the estimates I always make clients aware that there is plenty involved when doing the building project. There are a lot of cheap and lashy builders out there and I’ve been undercut plenty of times, but if people are not prepared to pay for the quality then they should not get it!
I would like to thank you both for putting this out there. It was a rainy day here in Pennsylvania, one if the 25 that need to be accounted for. I did job pricing today which is amazing to me that this came up in my feed. I can agree with you both about the "ballpark" issue. I do both things you both spoke of. I totally loved this my friends.
Great video guys, having recently gone self employed this advice I will carry round with me for a very long time ! truer words never spoken.
Found this really helpful thanks a lot. I'm a 25 year old brickie, self employed. Not doing many of my own jobs yet as I am working labour only for a company building houses but I am eager to do quotes and gain more experience in my own work. Found this really educational and insightful, thank you!
Good Luck.
A brickie near me (Manchester U.K.) just quoted me £15 sqmtr Blockwork and £650 per 1000 Brickwork....(roughly... dependant on brick size...60 to 70 bricks per sqmtr so, 14 to 16 sqmts per 1000 bricks, works out about £40 to £46 sqmtr).
May help you out.
@@ningis21 was that labour only or incl materials?
Labour only. @@coops6621
Excellent idea for doing this chaps. I like all your ideas here and i have been through much of what you are talking about here.
I think the best advice i can add is. Learn your market clientele and don't give a price to a person who is getting 4-5 quotes.
Excellent chat. Always the hot topic after a good days work in my local. Understanding the psychology of the customers goes a long way...
Truth was shared here
Thanks I own a small remodeling business and I agree with the gentleman you price condition and you can tell when you look in somebody in the face if that’s going to be within their realm
Brillant video podcast. This has helped me as i am at a point of going out on my own and building own company. Its great to hear first hand experience and knowledge. Look foward to watching the next one.
Awesome talk as always you guys make more sense each time I listen to your wisdom 👍
Absolutely loved this, really helpful as is everything else you do to be honest 👍
Interesting podcast lads. I have been self employed for 16 years now and still I find myself trying to do people favors all the time as I am worried that my prices will be too high. Think I might have to take a good look at the situation and learn to knock back the jobs that just will not make me any money at all.
Time to get ruthless :)
Hi Dan
I have just read a quote from Warren Buffet who says that the mark of a really succesful person is their ability to say 'No' more often. I think y the time you learn that lesson it is often too late. Give it a go for a few weeks/months and see what difference it makes to your business and your job satisfaction.
@@SkillBuilder Yes lads will do. I was going to trial it on the next few jobs I price and like you say, see how it goes. Thanks for the reply.
Absolutely loved your podcast, as all your videos, I am a bricklayer and I had a chuckle when Robin said he wouldn't like his son(if he had one) in the trade. keep up the good work guys.
Listening to two professionals in the industry chat about the different topics you talk about is brilliant to listen to for me. I'm coming into the industry at the age of 26 and it's been difficult so far. A topic I want to know about is 'Do employers care about NVQ qualifications or Diploma qualifications or are they just concerned with experience. - Carpentry and Joinery wise
If it helps, I’ve been to two job interviews, mentioned I have my carpentry certificates and they said we don’t need to see them. Pisses me off tbh, it kinda makes me feel like why are you employing me.
really good points on this chaps, Robin has it pretty much bang on, but in my opinion could improve the pricing margin easily by sharing the spreadsheet with the client, the columns with the profit margin % and the error allowance could be hidden before printing off. There is a fair amount of mistrust in the industry from both sides, tradesmen wonder about being paid etc and the buyer worries about quality of work and time taken to complete. A good list "in my industry its called a statement of work" not only helps the tradesman price it properly, but also gives a lot of confidence to the buyer that the job is going to be done on time and to a good standard. It also helps in the eventuality of disagreements, for example "foundation dig uncovers a drain that requires a lot of extra work! without a statement of work the client may just say " you priced the extension as x get on with it" whereas with the statement of work, it becomes another line item that carries a price! and also a time delay. me personally , if i had three quotes to build an extension and one was with a complete statement of work and the other two were just quotes , i would definitely go with the statement of work guy even if he was more expensive (within reason) so extension quote 45k and 46k for example and full statement of work quote for 50k i would pay the 50k as it gives a lot more peace of mind. Also the statement of work approach allows a tradesman to build in payment points and also map out assumptions or exemptions (this protects the tradesman against unseen horrors biting)
Excellent and helpful thanks for taking the time to make this. It’s really difficult to get information like this.
Excellent approach there. Good advice for any supplier, not just those in the building trade.
Very good and very informative I worked for myself for about 2 years and eventually gave up because of the people I was working for mainly.. They want you to do the work but paying is another thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! They don't realise you have a van to pay for tools to buy and look after and all the sundries screws nut bolts sealants and the list just goes on. I have written money off when people think they can rip you off. Working for yourself is very tough and you learn quick. In the end I had debt luckily not a lot I sold my van and got a job on PAYE I still get shivers when I think about working for myself.