As an Episcopalian, I have to say that there is so much love in the Episcopal Church. No one is turned away at our doors. Everyone is welcome. Come as you are. The Episcopal Church isn't judgemental, and allows you to be who you are. She demonstrates what Jesus taught us to do, love your neighbor, be kind and compassionate, feed the hungry, help the homeless, care for the sick, and stand against injustice. We don't preach at people, and condemn them to Hell. Our evangelism is love, by acting like Jesus. We are allowed to ask questions and think. Last year, my Baptist husband went with me to our church. He kept going with me and his Confirmation is in May. He loves it, and starts his acolyte duties on Sunday. We work together in our homeless ministry, and justice ministry. He told me that he has never seen such an outpouring on love in any church. And he can wear his KISS ties to church. ?? ??
Catherine Cheek Hi Catherine, forgive me, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to challenge some of your assertions here. Your entire opening about the love of TEC, about not being turned away and being welcomed, about coming as you are and how TEC is not judgmental is not entirely accurate. My experience and the experience of many that I know in TEC says otherwise. I spent around 7 years in TEC, being confirmed therein. I also spent two of those years as a novice within the Society of St. Francis, TEC's Franciscan order. I've lived in the Diocese of San Diego, California (San Francisco) and Long Island. In all areas, anytime you brought up Republicans, Conservatives, Catholics and/or Evangelicals, every conversation turned hostile and down right bigoted. If you expressed a belief in the Biblical and Historical understanding of marriage then you were made to feel less than. If you did not support 'women's ordination', then you were made to feel less than. The environment within TEC is NOT welcoming to conservatives and orthodox. A good friend of mine whose father was a clergyman here in San Diego was sacked several years ago because the orthodoxy of his beliefs would not permit him to comply with directives from TEC. So while there are a great many people who have found a welcoming home within TEC, to say that it is all welcoming and non-judgmental is simply not true. I wish it was, but I'm afraid it's not.
Hi, I am sorry that there are Episcopal churches that are intolerant of Conservatives. Our parish is a mixture of Liberals and Conservatives. We have a wonderful congregation. It is an exceptional church, with a fantastic person as our rector. I will admit that I have been to churches who weren't as open as our parish. I even left the church for a long time because of this. But when I returned, I noticed so much had changed. Maybe it is our diocese, but I have felt so much love in the Church. We have to remember that the Episcopal Church isn't infallible, it is comprised of human beings, which make mistakes. And some churches lean toward Liberal ideals, and others lean toward Conservative ideals. Last week the Columbus Gay Mens' Choir did our liturgical music, and church attendance dropped off that day. I wish you could experience the Episcopal Church the way I have. I returned to church after thirty-two years. And since then, my life has been so much better. The presence of the Holy Spirit is very strong at Trinity. I wish all Episcopal churches were like our church.
Ros X Great post. If we followed the Bible word-for-word, we would be eating our children. Seriously, I was reading Ezekiel and found some references to this. I have seen this in other parts, as well. I went on a spiritual search, and realized the Episcopal Church was where God wanted me to be. I love inclusion. I love diversity. I enjoy my gay friends. They are kind. And the ones in my church get what Jesus was teaching.
God is Love. And the Episcopal Church has always been on the Godly side of history. In the civil rights movement, it embraced minorities even as other denominations fought to keep segregation alive. Similarly, the Episcopal Church today is following God's desire to include all people - even women and gays. EVERYONE deserves a place in a fellowship of believers to better develop a sustaining relationship with our savior Jesus Christ. This is God's will. If you can't see see that, you are blinded by man made theories. God is Love. Join us and find out for yourself! Peace be with you. -- A faithful Episcopalian.
And also with you. The Episcopal Church is now involved in stopping human trafficking, racism, climate change, and many other justice ministries. I am involved in our parishes justice ministry. Plus many Episcopal churches help the homeless and poor. I also love that I can think and ponder things in the Scriptures, without 'going to Hell'.
Wow, Sursum Corda, Sanctus, Gloria Patre, Kyrie Eleison are man-made. These phrases appear in the Masses of The Episcopal, Roman Catholic, and Lutheran Churches. I don't consider the Eucharest man- made. The sacred words of the Eucharest are directly from our Lord. So you don't like anyone who isn't Roman Catholic. If I thought that way about non-Episcopalians, I would have to hide myself away in the undercroft, or sub-basement of the Canterbury Cathedral. I don't look at you as a Roman Catholic, I look at you as another Child Of God. We are all God's children, even if we aren't part of the same denomination. One reason I love being an Episcopalian, is because we never claim to be the only right way to God.
The Episcopalian Church is involved in very decisive politics...I can't stomach it !! There is a need to maintain Religious Freedom and stop being involved in Worldly Politics..
It not really about politics. It is about justice and human rights. The Episcopal Church cares about all people. We aren't involve in politics, just looking out for people who many people ignore. We deal with refugees, immigrants, victims, and are fighting human trafficking. We also stand with Native Americans. In the recent election the Evangelicals were jumping into politics. They want Trump to win, while the Episcopalians were Bipartisan.
There is much more to the Episcopal Church than acceptance of gays, and women priests. So many self-righteous people bash our church without knowing what we believe or do. I find our gay members and women priests to be blessings. And in our parish there is so much love and compassion. To those of you who say we are a sinful church, remember "All have sinned and fall short in the Glory of God." Look closely at your own denominations. No denomination is perfect. I would rather belong to a faith, where love is preached, than be told that I am kindling for hellfire. And as you scrutinize the Episcopal church for accepting gays, realize that there are gay people in your churches, who fear being discovered. In the Episcopal Church they don't have to hide because we believe God extends His love to every person. If you are going to focus on sin in the Bible, you have to know that there are more verses that focus on divorce as wrong, than homosexuality. I do love being a member of a church who allows a person to think and question. It opens so many doors of discovery.
jesters60 The church is the direct descendant of the Church of England, which came into existence as a separate entity so that Henry VIII could divorce his wife and marry his mistress.
mindspring57 Henry VIII was accredited for starting the Church Of England, and he did want to be able to remarry. But he is a small part of it all. Thomas Cramer was probably the biggest influence because he took a stand in the Reformation. He is a martyr in our faith because he was murdered by Queen Mary (Bloody Mary) because he would not show allegiance to the Church in Rome.
I am sure that the split would have come even if Catherine of Aragon had been able to produce ten male children. Henry VIII and his cohorts wanted the church's monasteries and property as well, and as soon as the break was made, seized them.
I have had the pleasure of getting to know this amazing woman personally although I would have to acknowledge not closely. She is the former presiding Bishop if the Episcopal Church in America. She was the first - and so far only - woman to hold that position. She graced the cover of Time Magazine when consecrated Presiding Bushop. In person she is gracious kind and humble. Very inspiring. Having the chance to know her my lasting memory of her will not be the photo from the cover of Time Magazine but instead the photo I took of her passing hors d'oeuvres at a reception. Embarrassed that the former highest ranking individual in our Episcopal Church in America was passing hors d'oeuvres, I asked to take over from her. She said no and continued passing the tray. I immediately went to the kitchen and passed hors d'oeuvres alongside her for the rest of the event. She is the epitome of grace and humility.
The Episcopal church is so great I watch services from Washington national cathedral! I love it Im in college and live with my parents and i am forced to go to an Evangelical, gay bashing, fire and brimstone, do as i say, holier than thou church. When i move out im going to find an Episcopal church to attend.
Can I suggest that you read your Bible and not allow the wayward Episcopal church to influence you. You will find that they have lost their way and that Christ's way is the 'narrow way'. God bless you in your search for his truth and in your surrender to it.
I've been visiting an Episcopal church in my area occasionally, and I intend to visit it more often in the future. It's a beautiful church with a loving community. I wish there were more young people, but I've come to realize and accept that if I want more young people to come to the Episcopal Church, I have to be the first.
When I walked into an Episcopal Church for fhe first time, it felt right. I was baptized into the churches of CHRIST (protestant), then converted to Roman Catholicism. I went to the Traditional Latin Mass and was an altar boy. When I served in the military, I attended the Eastern Orthodox liturgy on post. I did become disillusioned again and was absent for several years. A friend (not Episcopalian) invited me to attend a Eucharist and that was it for me. I went back, signed the guest baok and got invited to coffee the next day by a good priest. I have been in the church for longer than any of the previous churches. Nowhere had I experienced real Christians who actually practice what JESUS taught. Treat others how you want to be treated, love GOD above everthing, love your neighbor as yourself unconditionally, love each other as CHRIST loves us, and mercy triumphs over judgment and more. They are real because they recognize that they are fallible and not at all perfect. They are not fake or cultish. I see miracles every day that prove I am in the right place for me. We don't judge others and love without walls (at least we try).
I'm not even religious but that's such a dope thing. I wish more religious sects were like the Episcopal/Anglican Church in that sense. You need it...people will look for greater answers (not I, but others) and I feel like they could be a leader in a smart, forward-thinking faith group that comes as close to the message that Christianity was about than most other sects.
I DO come from a good parish. But it is good parish because the people there are nonjudgmental and accepting of ALL. My priest always announces that 'ALL are welcome to the Table" before Communion starts. We do not discuss Church politics. But its not because we are "afraid". It is because it is a non-issue for us. We simply DO NOT CARE if our clergy is gay or straight, as long as they do what they are called to do. As for this "KJS thing", she's the best thing to happen to TEC!
Preaching- You need to read up on Anglican history and the Reformation. There was a movement afoot to break from the Roman Church LONG before Henry VIII wanted a divorce. He didn't "start a church."
Her response at the beginning of this video was so simple but completely opened my mind. I’ve never willingly approached a church before but after attending a virtual streaming service this last Sunday here I am, looking up videos about the church and I’m so interested in keeping up my attendance.
@kingalejandro1 Q question-do you think God fell asleep during the 16th century? At that time the Catholic Church was running on a secular platform and not sacred one. God used William Tyndale, Martin Luther and even Henry VIII to split off from the church because people at that time needed to hear the word and be baptised, not be under the thumb of a pope and priests who didn't even know what the bible said in latin, much less apply it to their lives.
Please release your hate and judgement and truly follow Christ's Greatest Commandment: "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all you soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." There is no other commandment greater than these."
LOL! Amen! I love the Episcopal Church. As growing up Baptist, I was exposed to quite a bit of extremism. I love seeing rationality coexisting with tradition.
I totally disagree with everyone below. I call the Episcopal church the "thinking man''s religion" because it teaches us to read the Bible not to believe what man is teaching. The Bible is the book of all Christianity. I also like Bishop Jefferts-Shori because she stands up to all the nay sayers. Maybe you should be praying and forgiving more than just badmouthing. I want everyone to find a church that they are comfortable in that truly preaches the word of God and make a home there. My motto is 'God speaks to us each differently hoping we will tell each other'.
I liked what you said, Sharon. I am not Episcopalian (not so far at least), but among the different Christian denominations I find it one of the two or three that, within the context of the heritage and values of traditional Christian thought, actively encourages questioning and recognizes that we must wrestle with our doubts, our occasional lack of clarity, and even apparent inconsistency in that which we are taught. IMHO the surest way to an authentic relationship with the Divine is to delve and ponder and question and reflect, rather than take in dogma parrot-like so it can be repeated without as complete of an understanding as we can attain. -- Todd
Sharon, I really enjoyed what you have said in your post. I don't have to agree with everything someone says in order to fellowship with him or her. I accept the fact that God has given each of us a unique ministry and sometimes, those ministries can have a different emphasis than others, though these ministries don't have to conflict with one another. The Presiding Bishop +Katherine Jefferts Schori expressed it very nicely.... BTW, she and the retired Bishop +John Shelby Spong are the top reasons (though not the only reasons) I went from Roman Catholic to the Episcopal Church. :)
My motto is: ' Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.' A workman that needeth not to be ashamed, that ain't easy in light of this world of sin, nevertheless a workman for the Lord I'll be, and if He tarries, I'll be to the end. Just for your comment I will pray for you mam, I know nothing of you, however you fellowship in a wretched abomination of a 'denomination', which endorses sin on every hand, preaches a social gospel of works, does not worship the Lord in Spirit, neither in Truth (Jn. 4:24), disobeys the plain command of the Lord, and thereby makes known their disdain and lack of love for Him (Jn. 14:15, 23, 1 Jn. 5:3), rejects the plain reading of the word, favoring lost men's fables and theories of men, communes with devils, denies the coming of the Lord and is without care, nor concern for the many multitudes of lost, being turned into hell daily. I do not lay these sins to your account mam, however in judgment they will be, you must separate from those in error, the episcopal church is in flagrant violation of the Lord's word to Christians, bible separation is not a suggestion, it is a command. May the Lord bless you and keep you from sin, I'll be praying for you.
When I say the Thinking Man's religion, I meant that we don't have to follow blindly, but read the word of God and dessern the truth for ourselves. I will never follow blindly.
I am no longer an Episcopalian. But I can think of no better way into the practice of the whole of the Christian experience than the Episcopal way. Being an Episcopalian is like going to college in Christianity. Or at least it is there for the taking. The Episcopal experience brings a great deal of the Catholic experience and the thousands of years of thought and consideration; but it also brings with it the English critical enquiry, the enormously problematic questions of the English heritage.
@EpiscopalMatthew If you closely study the Old Testament and the Israelites, God in a way, resembles a herdsman and the Israelites a herd. The shepard cuts out the unhealthy, just as God cuts out the unholy, the filthy, and the evil. The herdsmans desired end product is a strong healthy herd. God's desired end product is a people worthy to bring Christ into the world for the salvation of all Mankind. That's why the Israelites are called the "Chosen" people. They are God's own.
i love the liturgy, and yes i realize it isn't what is going to get me into heaven. it's a way to know that i'm in a special and sacred space. i like the idea that the service has a particular order, and each part means something.as long as the church is telling you the right things, who cares how they do it?
Sure Jeff. Better to go to a church where everybody understands God's Will perfectly and KNOWS exactly what to do. My problem is that there are so many DIFFERENT churches and creeds out there JUST LIKE YOURS! They all KNOW what's best. Which is why we live in such a great world, full of peace and love and without wars. Many Muslims, Hassidic Jews, Baptists, and other creeds ARE THIS WAY. The all have THE RIGHT ANSWER for every question and problem. Maybe one day I will become A CHOSEN ONE just like YOU are.
Ros X, Isn't coffee hour great. I meet many newcomers that way. People are very interesting. Meeting different cultures is enlightening. I get great recipes. 😁Which reminds me. I host coffee hour on Sunday. Plus, Episcopalians are a lot of fun. 🤠
Be it as it may, Christianity is not about "tradition" or "ritual" ...what is wrong is when you exalt them over Christianity. This is exactly what Jesus constantly chided the Pharisees about. So the Liturgy of Jacob, okay does YOUR salvation count on it? WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR YOU TO BE A CHRISTIAN?
I am so glad i left this church when i was 20 in 1987 i was born in to it now i am born again this church has apostasy sad so sad to me i never liked the church i grown up in i never grew sprituly in this church until i left it is hell to be raised up in religion thankGOD i come to know his words and it is a relationship with Christ and know him and what he says about him self and you i would read John 1 chapter
So because multiple bodies claim the same authority, we can just ignore every claim? I would think that just means they should all have their claims explored.
The problem is The Catholic Church has been corrupted also.... Where do you go: The Orthodox Church is full of Idols, statues and ICONS. Rome prayers to other GODS and Dead saints. Where do you go??
You could always have Evening Prayer said (or sung if enough are up to it) at your parish on Christmas Eve. The Magnificat is especially appropriate for that night.
As far as the Episcopalian church goes if given the choice I would choose that over the Catholic church.Because it seems friendlier less intimidating and more welcoming FWI I haven't actually went to either so my opinions is more based upon things I heard than anything else.However I have examined Catholicism and I do see beauty in it and even though Catholicism wouldn't be my first choice I understand why someone else might choose that and I would respect there decision to do so. My personal feeling about religion is that I would want a religious community that is friendly and makes me feel safe but at the same time I would also like to embrace opportunities to become more disciplined and go outside of my confort zone.But as far as Catholic vs Protestants or Catholics vs Episcopalians I don't think it really serves us any benefit to argue and bicker over who happens to be the "Real Christians" and who are not.I also think that should be more concerned with your relationship with God than that of those around you.
💒 good afternoon all 🤗I am a born Episcopalian one thing you will be never turn away from taking Holy Communion We are one Body of JESUS some other if you not their Religion will turn you away from taking Holy COMMUNION
It all depends on what kind of Episcopal church you go to. Sadly, many follow Schori in denying the resurrection & the divinity of Christ, but quite a few don't. It matters little if you go to an Episcopal church or a different one, just go to one that follows Christ.
I talked to my Priest about this matter a few years ago. He was not keen on the idea of the Anglican Ordinariate because it would actually make an Anglican Rite Parish cease to be "Anglican." I am a member of the Anglican Province of Christ the King, and we preserve the essence of "the catholic church." When I receive my sacrament, I am getting the real presence. We observe the creed, and we consistently practice our sacramental theology.
dsindc When Paul describes the church as "the body of Christ," he also makes clear that the church is implicated in sin and not only fallible, but always already fallen. Being "the body of Christ" is ... not the kind of metaphor which means "is identical to". The RC church also believes this ... as the Magisterium is also not "the church," but only a part, albeit a significant one.
@Mauser2012 Not too different, although a woman priest may be in charge in an Episcopal service. It wouldn't hurt to try it, if you're really interested.
@ 1:09 "We are strongly traditional church." --> Has a female as their leader. "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." 1 Timothy 2:12
@iotaunam1 That is certainly one view of the matter. Viewed most positively, however, Henry VIII wished to establish the national identity of England and free it from the control of the Italian popes. The pope probably would have granted Henry the annulment, except that Catherine's nephew, King Charles of Spain, was laying siege to Rome.
@episconerd What matters more is what she teaches, not what she believes (which strictly speaking we can't know for sure). Re. the resurrection: she teaches that whether it happened or not is unimportant; she always directs our attention away from the resurrection itself by "metamorphizing" it and getting us to think about other things - e.g. environmentalism. Not that this isn't important - it simply isn't the resurrection. Read #1 when you google, it's long. You can also PM me with questions.
Yes, this is why I hate the modern episcopal marketing strategy. "We're the progressive church", well every church is progressive these days. We're getting so many outsiders from other denominations and atheists that our church has lost its vision of being the American branch of the Anglican communion. Half of the newcomers don't even know what Anglicanism is, and the church is alienating all of its traditional Anglican followers.
God has called us to love others, however, He has not called us to come into agreement with sin by "blessing it" thereby giving it legitimacy. Along with the Leviticus scripture on sodomy, 1 Cor 6:9-10 also addresses sexual sins: Fornication, adultery, effeminacy, sodomy (homosexuality). If sodomites are to be blessed, then those who commit adultery & fornication should also be blessed. However, God does not "bless" any of these sexual sins, and neither should I. Love people, not sin!
I am a christian-cultured agnostic who now attends (every 3 weeks) an episcopal mass only because of my habitude of attending church during childhood. I feel guilty at times when i give it a thought, its like I am using this institution to satisfy my psychological habits.
btw, she doesn't deny the divinity of Christ if you allow her to re-define "divinity" to mean "an important moral teacher who taught us brilliant things, " or redefine resurrection to mean "feeling like you can go beyond & be all you can be." [note .. not her words exactly]. She says she does affirm these teachings ... but in re-defining them she is denying what the Church teaches. I've worked with a number of Episcopal church leaders & there are big probs in this area, it's heartbreaking.
(final)- It seems to me Shostakovich begins the 5th with a haunting theme, a sort of knock on the door much like Beethoven's in his 5th. I think it represents the existential question "to be or not to be". To adhere to any dogmatic tradition in my view represents a decision - not to be. In the conclusion of that masterpiece, man wins out (likely at Stalin's insistence). But the piece is instructive. To accept dogma, is to become less human. Reason must prevail. Matters of faith are not exempt.
Well, I certainly am happy to belong to a denomination that has the guts to admit that we don't know all yet about God, and yes, I'm not sorry we've kept and perfected most of the great music in Christendom. Darn right I'm an Episcopalian.
Indeed, to say that Jesus is (in her case, WAS), an important teacher," is NOT to deny Christ's divinity. To * reduce * Christ's divinity to this - saying it means ONLY this - and brush the rest off as "mythology" - IS to deny what the NT teaches us of His divinity. Have you read her Parabola Spring 2007 interview yet?
I would argue that the Apostolic line was not broken, because those "appointed" Bishops were Concencrated as Priests likely through the original Apostolic Succession of the Roman Catholic Church in the first place, plus the English Reformation differed greatly from their continental counterparts in the sense that we did not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Having all this said, I say this with no intention of disrespect for Roman Catholicism. I almost converted to Roman Catholicism.
@ponyboy1488 No, I won't get into the issue here in small comment boxes. I have offered to discuss indepth by PM, but 9 time out of 10 people do not/cannot discuss the issue in depth, and therefore continue to post small one liners. If you want to debate/discuss the issue in depth I will be happy to by PM. Also, the "anger" you mention does not exist on my part; I am just tired of having to refute the same errors so many time. I have debated this issue too many times to remember.
No, they don't teach that 7 sacraments are necessary for salvation - there are 2 sacraments, and one is not necessarily excluded from salvation without either. But it is true that many are very much compromised, and the leadership of TEC sometimes seems to be teaching a different gospel. You are right though, sadly, to watch out.
@EpiscopalMatthew Just as the Jews took Passover to reflect on how God saved them and brought them out of bondage in Egypt, Christ asked us to remember Him and His suffering on our behalf.
Your choice, choirboy, if you don't wanna know, you don't wanna know - it's the interview, I got it initially from TEC's own site on a page about KJS. They pulled it after people started quoting it (don't know if that's WHY though). Much more important that you serve Christ than engage in discussions on bishops etc.. There are good reasons also for not wanting to know, and I respect that.
Who exactly is it who decides which of Christ's teachings you will accept, and which you will disgard? Do you keep a list so Episcopalians reading the Bible don't become confused?
jdththegr8 - for years, TEC was just not affirming the core doctrines - I mean, what Lutherans, Methodists, Presbies, Catholics, Baptists, etc. Now, Schori is actively casting doubt on them. This means the sense of "Christian" is now different - TEC is "Christian" in the sense that Muslims, Mormons, and Jehovahs Witnesses are, who all believe in Christ, but isn't Trinitarian.
@Mauser2012 if you're going to leave over a few changed words, then so be it. But you'll be surprised when you go to different churches and you'll hear some of the words that are in the new mass like "visible and invisible" "incarnate" etc. The same words that you're leaving over...
10. No snake handling. 9. You can believe in dinosaurs. 8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them. 7. You don't have to check your brains at the door. 6. Pew aerobics. 5. Church year is color-coded. 4. Free wine on Sunday. 3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt. 2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized. And the Number One reason is: 1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you.
@mindspring57 No: it is not merely "one view" it is the Truth, which is not subjective. The reason which I gave for Henry's founding of the Anglican sect is a historic fact, which is well documented. That Henry was trying to "free" England from Iitalian" power is absurd, given Henry's published defence of the Papacy to counter Martin Luther and the reformers; for which he was awarded his title by the Pope. That is until he wanted to break Christs law himself.
@jimdela Why then did she call herself "Dean" in the Ministry Experience information? I'd say "Dean of the Good Shepherd School of Theology of Corvallis OR" would lead many voters to believe she'd been something other than head of adult education classes at her parish. Furthermore this wasn't reported so on her election as Diocesan bishop of Nevada. Google Good Samaritan School of Theology for more info.
"Theology" is an enterprise which can be engaged in by both those within the church and those without ... the church "receives" theologies when it finds them to be true, or reflective of who we believe God to be. Theologies can be profitably studied, without commending them to belief - or even disagreeing with them. The church received Trinitarian Christology in the first two ecumenical councils; the Communion officially accepts the first four.
I think it's safest to say - the question of "adoptionism / eternal divinity of Christ wasn't really a "live issue" for Mark - it isn't really addressed. In a way, it doesn't have to be - it becomes an issue when our theology / theory advances into new areas where challenges arise. Mark did not know of these challenges ... so in a way I find the adoptionist/non-adoptionist distinction to be an anachronism for Mark.
Read works by those names I listed you'll see your wrong. "It would be a more unworthy course for God to spare the evil-doer then to punish him, especially in the most good and holy God, who is not otherwise fully good than as the enemy of evil, and that to such a degree as to display His love of good by the hatred of evil, and to fulfil His defence of the former by the extirpation of the latter." - Tertullian, Against Marcion Book 1, Chapter 26. God is a loving God and a just God
2cat, you're welcome to your opinion on KJS - be wary though of what people in your church tell you of other churches and "what those Christians believe." You may be enticed to believe you're more tolerant and intelligent than the others (this is KJS's line, which is why I bring it up here). But I've seen very little "thinking" really happening in TEC, which makes painting others as less intelligent ... arrogant. Visit other churches to find out what the other Christians are really like.
@ponyboy1488 I use the "so called" in front of "orthodox" for the same reason I use it before "reformation". Only the True Church is Orthodox properly so called. Again, I will not discuss here. PM if you want to discuss indepth.
Actually I'm a bit surprised that this rattles so many people since she invited Spong to teach her clergy in 2003 - and he is famous for this kind of thing. I'm happy people care in the divinity of Christ and the resurrection!
If you want a milktoast religion that will make you feel good about yourself and not require any sacrifice and where even devil worship is seen as "well that is not a good thing; but let me pray on it so you don't hurt yourself" then the Episcopal Church is the place to be. A Place where good and evil do not exist because all is relative and we do not want to hurt anyone's feelings because there really is no right or wrong except perhaps wanting to raise children with a mother and dad in a marriage. But being a transexual is great and being a homosexual is even better. That is why I left this church because it was not consonant with the New Testament as Jesus Christ taught it and is written in the New Testament.
@1macboo Not true at all. There was a minority of early church fathers who questioned the classical view of eternal hell taught in the Jewish and Early Christian tradition but Justin Martyr, Polycarp, Iraneus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Jerome, and Augustine all affirm the notion of eternal suffering. But what was certainly debated in the early church was whether an unregenerate sinner's soul was annihilated and destroyed or existent and forever suffering.
"Please release your hate and judgement"? For so long I've read that Episcopalians like me "don't have to check their brains at the door" implying others do. This pride of intellect is damning. Yet, the same brothers show gross lack of wisdom by using reversible arguments. There are Bible believing brothers and sisters in the Episcopal church, but not in the main stream.
brettpatrick, what is your opinion of the orthodox church and the gnostics? they each also claim to be put in place by christ. According to orthodox the bishop of Rome started asserting more authority than the other patriarchs and left the orthodox church as a result
The guy said "why should I join the Episcopalian church" and the woman said "your'e sitting here" In other words if you were willing to take the time to show up than it must have something your looking for.
I can tell you this - the Bible says that you will stand before the judgment seat of Christ who will judge your every idle word, thought, and deed. You will not be able to plead ignorance. Jesus gave his life as a ransom for yours. He paid the death sentence you owe God as the penalty for your sins for He is holy; sinners cannot stand in the holiness and glory of the eternal God. God, for love of us, sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to give His life as a ransom for all who would believe in Him.
That is true ... but +Schori seems to be telling us that there is less to Christ than what we believe - that Jesus was a man with interesting moral teachings, and that the word "God" means something like "being good" or "being nice," and does not mean: our creator, our savior - OR that - it doesn't really matter if the Church teaches these things or not. I've had responses similar to yours from other Episcopalians - sort of, "well so what if she denies it? I dig her anyway!"
"Why should you be an Episcopalian?" You should be an Episcopalian if you are looking for glitz without guilt, for a "religious experience" that does not demand faith or commitment, and for an organization that promotes the view that "anything goes."
"You have ministry by virtue of being baptized" I would love it, if someone could think of one single Christian denomination or Church that doesn't believe that. Heck even pseudo Christians like Mormons believe that.
My "Priest" is a "Priest." You might not like the fact that he can get married, but his priesthood is valid. Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism are all equally "catholic." I also accept that Anglicanism is as "protetstant" as it is "catholic," and that is what make us unique.
an oppurtunity to experience the love of a motherly leadership. I could experience the love of Blessed Mother Mary not only in Rosary devotion but also in hierarchy as shown by a female bishop. Virgin Mary was conceived in Holy Spirit, therefore the same Spirit manifest its fullness in a woman Bishop. Mary is not just a statue and icon which we've seen but also walking among us, speaking for justice and love of Christ. If Im a little Jesus on earth, we also have little Mary on earth.
Women cannot be bishops or priests. Both early church history and the Bible are very clear on this issue. The TEC is a mess, only the few remaining conservative Anglo-Catholic parishes within the church are worth visiting
Lackawanna Cut? Not sure what that is... Check your e-mail. Now the +Ding-Dong in South Carolina is making schism noises, sad, I sang as a soloist at an evensong at St. Michael's on Meeting Street a few years ago, while working a shipyard job in North Charleston.
I'll be remembering you and your little church. If you want to pray online with me and some other people, send me a private message - it's quite likely I'll be praying with people online on Christmas Eve, I don't really have much else to do either.
I saw that; CAndiron PMed me some source information. To say the least, it's disturbing. I first considered the Episcopalians because they shared many of my political views. However, I won't lie that the leadership being displayed now is unsettling where it really matters. My local Episcopalian church appears to have better support of the "core doctrine" than Schori might have. Whether or not that's truth is debatable, but this has been very eye-opening; I may have to consider another branch...
@episconerd You'd need to see her many references to Sallie McFague and Marcus Borg, know her affiliation with Bishop Spong; also look through her Easter sermons & other relevant material. Unless you think "the resurrection is just a metaphor & if it happened isn't really important," you'll see that she's pointing away from the event itself, and speaking of "transformation" in terms of the change she'd like to see with her political aims (many good, but still not the same as the resurrection).
@TheArsenalfc101 And??? Here's the thing, I'm episcopalian for me. I'm not episcopalian for Bishop Schori. I've never heard her say anything 'new age relativism', unless your talking about the policy on homosexuality. I actually support it because all people should know God loves them, and let God change them, not be chastised by the congregants. Anyway, it's not supposed to be about 'tradition' or even policy. The church, ANY CHURCH, should be about God.
imo there HAS to be a spirit of agreeing, there are of difference in opinion concerning the bible so how would going to this church be any different then going to any other church. follow the spirit.
With as much Christian Love as I can muster I have to say, the hate perpetuated by those who claim diversity and are practicing "social justice" through the church is a sham. Heresy means nothing to those who use the church to perpetuate their power under the guise of compassion. They think nothing of destroying a centuries old church in order to skin it and then use that skin to hide their own claws, fangs, and teeth. They are a cancer, they eat from the inside mutilating as they go all in the name of compassion. To call them wolves in sheep clothing would be to slight wolves. The Episcopal church once stood for something, now it stands for what is popular and progressive with no regards to scripture (unless cherry picked) and tradition. Anglican is they way I prefer to refer to myself but even that is beginning to suffer the same fate. Beware those who wish to change a church more than they want to perpetuate it because you just might be the child of Christ thrown out with the bath water.
@TheArsenalfc101 I agree in part with you. Using it dangerously is worse than not at all, however if the bible were never translated, few people would know what the bible actually said. The potential for misleading people become greater, the herectical faction goes up higher. The responsiblity of every christian regardless of denomination to know what the bible says.
The problem I have is Episcopalians have this attitude they are better than everyone else and that really sticks in my craw. It's ever so subtle but its always there and they think even the RC church is not the true church that some how they are. There is so much I like Anglicans have but that attitude I don't want to be a party too and so far I have barely met one that is not a hard drinker and that won't work for me. A little humility and a little less booze and you would have a winner! Peace Out.
I have visited many denominations and been snubbed by all of them. Yes, some Episcopalians are snooty, but most of them are humble and kind. I don't know when you last visited an Episcopal church, but the church has gone through many changes. It is no longer considered 'the wealthy man's church." And some churches are friendlier than others. Sometimes people get the attitude that we are snooty, because we are quiet before Mass. We aren't trying to ignore anyone, but are being reverent to God, and getting prepared for worship. As for alcohol, some people drink, but we don't hide it. And we don't walk around drunk. I see enough drunks who attend churches, who forbid alcohol, but many of them drink in secret. The sin lies in drunkenness. My mother used to run into so many people she knew, who attended Fundamentist churches, in the liquor store. So we, 'whiskypalians,' as we are nicknamed, are not drunken and snobby. But our church acknowledges our weaknesses, as each denomination should do. And the Episcopal church helps the poor, homeless, those who are wrestling with faith, and we stand for justice, things Jesus told us to do. All are welcome.
I disagree. As an Episcopalian, I know that we love God and our faith. It is right for us, even though we sometimes have too much 'Episcopal pride'. Episcopalians are very happy in the way they worship God, and are often misunderstood, because we have found a faith where we feel closer to God. We don't push people to be Episcopalians, but we would love people to know that we are not well known, and would love anyone to visit, to see if the Episcopal Church is a way they might find God.
peterann1 I'll remember you & your congregation during this Christmas season. That must be really, really tough. 2 hours N of you in Haddon Heights is St. Mary's Episcopal with rector Peter Jansma, he seems pretty cool, did seminary in the UK, not in a TEC seminary. Maybe you can phone him or visit him sometime. He might have fresh ideas.
That's very interesting! Nope, I'm rather open-minded. Any links are welcome, PM or otherwise. I haven't really looked much into Schori, and considering all the accusations now, I guess it deserves a look by me, at the very least. And yes, I believe your decriptions make a very good "lowest common denominator" I am glad that you agree on that, too. We're all fellow Christians here, in the end.
As an Episcopalian, I have to say that there is so much love in the Episcopal Church. No one is turned away at our doors. Everyone is welcome. Come as you are. The Episcopal Church isn't judgemental, and allows you to be who you are. She demonstrates what Jesus taught us to do, love your neighbor, be kind and compassionate, feed the hungry, help the homeless, care for the sick, and stand against injustice. We don't preach at people, and condemn them to Hell. Our evangelism is love, by acting like Jesus. We are allowed to ask questions and think. Last year, my Baptist husband went with me to our church. He kept going with me and his Confirmation is in May. He loves it, and starts his acolyte duties on Sunday. We work together in our homeless ministry, and justice ministry. He told me that he has never seen such an outpouring on love in any church. And he can wear his KISS ties to church. ?? ??
Catherine Cheek Hi Catherine, forgive me, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to challenge some of your assertions here. Your entire opening about the love of TEC, about not being turned away and being welcomed, about coming as you are and how TEC is not judgmental is not entirely accurate. My experience and the experience of many that I know in TEC says otherwise. I spent around 7 years in TEC, being confirmed therein. I also spent two of those years as a novice within the Society of St. Francis, TEC's Franciscan order. I've lived in the Diocese of San Diego, California (San Francisco) and Long Island. In all areas, anytime you brought up Republicans, Conservatives, Catholics and/or Evangelicals, every conversation turned hostile and down right bigoted. If you expressed a belief in the Biblical and Historical understanding of marriage then you were made to feel less than. If you did not support 'women's ordination', then you were made to feel less than. The environment within TEC is NOT welcoming to conservatives and orthodox. A good friend of mine whose father was a clergyman here in San Diego was sacked several years ago because the orthodoxy of his beliefs would not permit him to comply with directives from TEC. So while there are a great many people who have found a welcoming home within TEC, to say that it is all welcoming and non-judgmental is simply not true. I wish it was, but I'm afraid it's not.
Hi, I am sorry that there are Episcopal churches that are intolerant of Conservatives. Our parish is a mixture of Liberals and Conservatives. We have a wonderful congregation. It is an exceptional church, with a fantastic person as our rector. I will admit that I have been to churches who weren't as open as our parish. I even left the church for a long time because of this. But when I returned, I noticed so much had changed. Maybe it is our diocese, but I have felt so much love in the Church. We have to remember that the Episcopal Church isn't infallible, it is comprised of human beings, which make mistakes. And some churches lean toward Liberal ideals, and others lean toward Conservative ideals. Last week the Columbus Gay Mens' Choir did our liturgical music, and church attendance dropped off that day. I wish you could experience the Episcopal Church the way I have. I returned to church after thirty-two years. And since then, my life has been so much better. The presence of the Holy Spirit is very strong at Trinity. I wish all Episcopal churches were like our church.
Catherine Cheek yes, a lady told me that you guys support gay relationships and homosexual marriages because everyone is same?
I am just curious.
Thank You magalahi02...these are many of the experiences I found in the episcopal church as well.
Ros X Great post. If we followed the Bible word-for-word, we would be eating our children. Seriously, I was reading Ezekiel and found some references to this. I have seen this in other parts, as well. I went on a spiritual search, and realized the Episcopal Church was where God wanted me to be. I love inclusion. I love diversity. I enjoy my gay friends. They are kind. And the ones in my church get what Jesus was teaching.
God is Love. And the Episcopal Church has always been on the Godly side of history. In the civil rights movement, it embraced minorities even as other denominations fought to keep segregation alive. Similarly, the Episcopal Church today is following God's desire to include all people - even women and gays. EVERYONE deserves a place in a fellowship of believers to better develop a sustaining relationship with our savior Jesus Christ. This is God's will. If you can't see see that, you are blinded by man made theories. God is Love. Join us and find out for yourself! Peace be with you. -- A faithful Episcopalian.
And also with you. The Episcopal Church is now involved in stopping human trafficking, racism, climate change, and many other justice ministries. I am involved in our parishes justice ministry. Plus many Episcopal churches help the homeless and poor. I also love that I can think and ponder things in the Scriptures, without 'going to Hell'.
Wow, Sursum Corda, Sanctus, Gloria Patre, Kyrie Eleison are man-made. These phrases appear in the Masses of The Episcopal, Roman Catholic, and Lutheran Churches. I don't consider the Eucharest man- made. The sacred words of the Eucharest are directly from our Lord. So you don't like anyone who isn't Roman Catholic. If I thought that way about non-Episcopalians, I would have to hide myself away in the undercroft, or sub-basement of the Canterbury Cathedral. I don't look at you as a Roman Catholic, I look at you as another Child Of God. We are all God's children, even if we aren't part of the same denomination. One reason I love being an Episcopalian, is because we never claim to be the only right way to God.
The Episcopalian Church is involved in very decisive politics...I can't stomach it !! There is a need to maintain Religious Freedom and stop being involved in Worldly Politics..
It not really about politics. It is about justice and human rights. The Episcopal Church cares about all people. We aren't involve in politics, just looking out for people who many people ignore. We deal with refugees, immigrants, victims, and are fighting human trafficking. We also stand with Native Americans. In the recent election the Evangelicals were jumping into politics. They want Trump to win, while the Episcopalians were Bipartisan.
Catherine Cheek It is politics and get decisive ones which is destroying the Episcopal Church. Activism is good but can't you do outside the church?
There is much more to the Episcopal Church than acceptance of gays, and women priests. So many self-righteous people bash our church without knowing what we believe or do. I find our gay members and women priests to be blessings. And in our parish there is so much love and compassion. To those of you who say we are a sinful church, remember "All have sinned and fall short in the Glory of God." Look closely at your own denominations. No denomination is perfect. I would rather belong to a faith, where love is preached, than be told that I am kindling for hellfire. And as you scrutinize the Episcopal church for accepting gays, realize that there are gay people in your churches, who fear being discovered. In the Episcopal Church they don't have to hide because we believe God extends His love to every person. If you are going to focus on sin in the Bible, you have to know that there are more verses that focus on divorce as wrong, than homosexuality. I do love being a member of a church who allows a person to think and question. It opens so many doors of discovery.
jesters60 The church is the direct descendant of the Church of England, which came into existence as a separate entity so that Henry VIII could divorce his wife and marry his mistress.
mindspring57 Henry VIII was accredited for starting the Church Of England, and he did want to be able to remarry. But he is a small part of it all. Thomas Cramer was probably the biggest influence because he took a stand in the Reformation. He is a martyr in our faith because he was murdered by Queen Mary (Bloody Mary) because he would not show allegiance to the Church in Rome.
I am sure that the split would have come even if Catherine of Aragon had been able to produce ten male children. Henry VIII and his cohorts wanted the church's monasteries and property as well, and as soon as the break was made, seized them.
You may not want to hear about Hell, but if you believe in JESUS we need to listen to him and follow him
Ros X Henry XIII was ex-communicated from the Anglican Church. Such irony. He really had issues.😄
I have had the pleasure of getting to know this amazing woman personally although I would have to acknowledge not closely. She is the former presiding Bishop if the Episcopal Church in America. She was the first - and so far only - woman to hold that position. She graced the cover of Time Magazine when consecrated Presiding Bushop. In person she is gracious kind and humble. Very inspiring.
Having the chance to know her my lasting memory of her will not be the photo from the cover of Time Magazine but instead the photo I took of her passing hors d'oeuvres at a reception. Embarrassed that the former highest ranking individual in our Episcopal Church in America was passing hors d'oeuvres, I asked to take over from her. She said no and continued passing the tray. I immediately went to the kitchen and passed hors d'oeuvres alongside her for the rest of the event.
She is the epitome of grace and humility.
The Episcopal church is so great I watch services from Washington national cathedral! I love it Im in college and live with my parents and i am forced to go to an Evangelical, gay bashing, fire and brimstone, do as i say, holier than thou church. When i move out im going to find an Episcopal church to attend.
I pray and hope that you were successful in doing so many years ago friend.
Can I suggest that you read your Bible and not allow the wayward Episcopal church to influence you. You will find that they have lost their way and that Christ's way is the 'narrow way'. God bless you in your search for his truth and in your surrender to it.
Go For It!!!!!! Join The Episcopal Church!!!!!!!
I became Episcopalian this past July. The people at the church I attend are wonderful and kind.
@@dutchmcgee101 Me Too!!!!!!!
I've been visiting an Episcopal church in my area occasionally, and I intend to visit it more often in the future. It's a beautiful church with a loving community. I wish there were more young people, but I've come to realize and accept that if I want more young people to come to the Episcopal Church, I have to be the first.
When I walked into an Episcopal Church for fhe first time, it felt right. I was baptized into the churches of CHRIST (protestant), then converted to Roman Catholicism. I went to the Traditional Latin Mass and was an altar boy. When I served in the military, I attended the Eastern Orthodox liturgy on post. I did become disillusioned again and was absent for several years.
A friend (not Episcopalian) invited me to attend a Eucharist and that was it for me. I went back, signed the guest baok and got invited to coffee the next day by a good priest. I have been in the church for longer than any of the previous churches.
Nowhere had I experienced real Christians who actually practice what JESUS taught. Treat others how you want to be treated, love GOD above everthing, love your neighbor as yourself unconditionally, love each other as CHRIST loves us, and mercy triumphs over judgment and more. They are real because they recognize that they are fallible and not at all perfect.
They are not fake or cultish. I see miracles every day that prove I am in the right place for me. We don't judge others and love without walls (at least we try).
I'm not even religious but that's such a dope thing. I wish more religious sects were like the Episcopal/Anglican Church in that sense. You need it...people will look for greater answers (not I, but others) and I feel like they could be a leader in a smart, forward-thinking faith group that comes as close to the message that Christianity was about than most other sects.
How lovely to hear your voice - How lovely to learn the word diversity - God bless you and family amen
I DO come from a good parish. But it is good parish because the people there are nonjudgmental and accepting of ALL. My priest always announces that 'ALL are welcome to the Table" before Communion starts.
We do not discuss Church politics. But its not because we are "afraid". It is because it is a non-issue for us. We simply DO NOT CARE if our clergy is gay or straight, as long as they do what they are called to do. As for this "KJS thing", she's the best thing to happen to TEC!
Preaching- You need to read up on Anglican history and the Reformation. There was a movement afoot to break from the Roman Church LONG before Henry VIII wanted a divorce. He didn't "start a church."
Nowhere did she say that the church preaches how Christ died for your sins. In him, you have eternal life.
Her response at the beginning of this video was so simple but completely opened my mind. I’ve never willingly approached a church before but after attending a virtual streaming service this last Sunday here I am, looking up videos about the church and I’m so interested in keeping up my attendance.
@kingalejandro1 Q question-do you think God fell asleep during the 16th century? At that time the Catholic Church was running on a secular platform and not sacred one. God used William Tyndale, Martin Luther and even Henry VIII to split off from the church because people at that time needed to hear the word and be baptised, not be under the thumb of a pope and priests who didn't even know what the bible said in latin, much less apply it to their lives.
Please release your hate and judgement and truly follow Christ's Greatest Commandment: "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all you soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." There is no other commandment greater than these."
Amen. "If it's not about love, it's not about GOD" -Bishop Curry.
LOL! Amen! I love the Episcopal Church. As growing up Baptist, I was exposed to quite a bit of extremism.
I love seeing rationality coexisting with tradition.
Yes this. I was baptized Episcopalian last year and getting confirmed the end of June.
I love her! She's part of why I am an Episcopalian!
I totally disagree with everyone below. I call the Episcopal church the "thinking man''s religion" because it teaches us to read the Bible not to believe what man is teaching. The Bible is the book of all Christianity. I also like Bishop Jefferts-Shori because she stands up to all the nay sayers. Maybe you should be praying and forgiving more than just badmouthing. I want everyone to find a church that they are comfortable in that truly preaches the word of God and make a home there. My motto is 'God speaks to us each differently hoping we will tell each other'.
I liked what you said, Sharon. I am not Episcopalian (not so far at least), but among the different Christian denominations I find it one of the two or three that, within the context of the heritage and values of traditional Christian thought, actively encourages questioning and recognizes that we must wrestle with our doubts, our occasional lack of clarity, and even apparent inconsistency in that which we are taught.
IMHO the surest way to an authentic relationship with the Divine is to delve and ponder and question and reflect, rather than take in dogma parrot-like so it can be repeated without as complete of an understanding as we can attain. -- Todd
Sharon, I really enjoyed what you have said in your post. I don't have to agree with everything someone says in order to fellowship with him or her. I accept the fact that God has given each of us a unique ministry and sometimes, those ministries can have a different emphasis than others, though these ministries don't have to conflict with one another. The Presiding Bishop +Katherine Jefferts Schori expressed it very nicely.... BTW, she and the retired Bishop +John Shelby Spong are the top reasons (though not the only reasons) I went from Roman Catholic to the Episcopal Church. :)
I call the Episcopal Church the "thinking man's church" because they encourage you to think for yourself and to question.
My motto is:
' Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.'
A workman that needeth not to be ashamed, that ain't easy in light of this world of sin, nevertheless a workman for the Lord I'll be, and if He tarries, I'll be to the end.
Just for your comment I will pray for you mam, I know nothing of you, however you fellowship in a wretched abomination of a 'denomination', which endorses sin on every hand, preaches a social gospel of works, does not worship the Lord in Spirit, neither in Truth (Jn. 4:24), disobeys the plain command of the Lord, and thereby makes known their disdain and lack of love for Him (Jn. 14:15, 23, 1 Jn. 5:3), rejects the plain reading of the word, favoring lost men's fables and theories of men, communes with devils, denies the coming of the Lord and is without care, nor concern for the many multitudes of lost, being turned into hell daily.
I do not lay these sins to your account mam, however in judgment they will be, you must separate from those in error, the episcopal church is in flagrant violation of the Lord's word to Christians, bible separation is not a suggestion, it is a command.
May the Lord bless you and keep you from sin, I'll be praying for you.
When I say the Thinking Man's religion, I meant that we don't have to follow blindly, but read the word of God and dessern the truth for ourselves. I will never follow blindly.
I am no longer an Episcopalian. But I can think of no better way into the practice of the whole of the Christian experience than the Episcopal way. Being an Episcopalian is like going to college in Christianity. Or at least it is there for the taking. The Episcopal experience brings a great deal of the Catholic experience and the thousands of years of thought and consideration; but it also brings with it the English critical enquiry, the enormously problematic questions of the English heritage.
@EpiscopalMatthew If you closely study the Old Testament and the Israelites, God in a way, resembles a herdsman and the Israelites a herd. The shepard cuts out the unhealthy, just as God cuts out the unholy, the filthy, and the evil. The herdsmans desired end product is a strong healthy herd. God's desired end product is a people worthy to bring Christ into the world for the salvation of all Mankind. That's why the Israelites are called the "Chosen" people. They are God's own.
I love her answer!
i love the liturgy, and yes i realize it isn't what is going to get me into heaven. it's a way to know that i'm in a special and sacred space. i like the idea that the service has a particular order, and each part means something.as long as the church is telling you the right things, who cares how they do it?
It's a great place to be if you're homosexual or transgender and/or if you like watching British shows from the 70s and 80s.
Sure Jeff. Better to go to a church where everybody understands God's Will perfectly and KNOWS exactly what to do. My problem is that there are so many DIFFERENT churches and creeds out there JUST LIKE YOURS! They all KNOW what's best.
Which is why we live in such a great world, full of peace and love and without wars. Many Muslims, Hassidic Jews, Baptists, and other creeds ARE THIS WAY.
The all have THE RIGHT ANSWER for every question and problem. Maybe one day I will become A CHOSEN ONE just like YOU are.
This Episcopalian loves "The Vicar Of Dibley". 😆
Catherine Cheek one of my favorite shows💓
Ros X, Isn't coffee hour great. I meet many newcomers that way. People are very interesting. Meeting different cultures is enlightening. I get great recipes.
😁Which reminds me. I host coffee hour on Sunday. Plus, Episcopalians are a lot of fun. 🤠
Jeffrey Morrissey Yes, it is a requirement in the Episcopal Church to love "The Vicar Of Dibley" I love British programs.
You're sitting here
Yes, doubting my faith tradition
We are diverse and do what we want
Oh OK, bye
Be it as it may, Christianity is not about "tradition" or "ritual" ...what is wrong is when you exalt them over Christianity. This is exactly what Jesus constantly chided the Pharisees about. So the Liturgy of Jacob, okay does YOUR salvation count on it?
WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR YOU TO BE A CHRISTIAN?
I am so glad i left this church when i was 20 in 1987 i was born in to it now i am born again this church has apostasy sad so sad to me i never liked the church i grown up in i never grew sprituly in this church until i left it is hell to be raised up in religion thankGOD i come to know his words and it is a relationship with Christ and know him and what he says about him self and you i would read John 1 chapter
All Christians should come to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church which Jesus instituted himself in 33 A.D.
Maria Madriquez You mean the Orthodox Catholic Church?;)
that's right
there is no salvation outside the holy Roman Catholic Church
So because multiple bodies claim the same authority, we can just ignore every claim? I would think that just means they should all have their claims explored.
The problem is The Catholic Church has been corrupted also.... Where do you go: The Orthodox Church is full of Idols, statues and ICONS. Rome prayers to other GODS and Dead saints. Where do you go??
Jim Eckland... you obviously haven't done your research. No one prays to "other gods".
You could always have Evening Prayer said (or sung if enough are up to it) at your parish on Christmas Eve. The Magnificat is especially appropriate for that night.
As far as the Episcopalian church goes if given the choice I would choose that over the Catholic church.Because it seems friendlier less intimidating and more welcoming FWI I haven't actually went to either so my opinions is more based upon things I heard than anything else.However I have examined Catholicism and I do see beauty in it and even though Catholicism wouldn't be my first choice I understand why someone else might choose that and I would respect there decision to do so. My personal feeling about religion is that I would want a religious community that is friendly and makes me feel safe but at the same time I would also like to embrace opportunities to become more disciplined and go outside of my confort zone.But as far as Catholic vs Protestants or Catholics vs Episcopalians I don't think it really serves us any benefit to argue and bicker over who happens to be the "Real Christians" and who are not.I also think that should be more concerned with your relationship with God than that of those around you.
Taylor Gordon, you will be welcome in the Episcopal Church. There are no political parties, just God's Children. We accept everyone. Come visit us.
Riiiiight. Only one political party. The Woke party.
LOL. It's like a diet coke commericial
Episcopal Church: Same old Catholic Flavor, but with only half the guilt!!!
💒 good afternoon all 🤗I am a born Episcopalian one thing you will be never turn away from taking Holy Communion We are one Body of JESUS some other if you not their Religion will turn you away from taking Holy COMMUNION
It all depends on what kind of Episcopal church you go to. Sadly, many follow Schori in denying the resurrection & the divinity of Christ, but quite a few don't.
It matters little if you go to an Episcopal church or a different one, just go to one that follows Christ.
I know! And women have power and the people are allowed to think.
Thank you, Henry!
I talked to my Priest about this matter a few years ago. He was not keen on the idea of the Anglican Ordinariate because it would actually make an Anglican Rite Parish cease to be "Anglican." I am a member of the Anglican Province of Christ the King, and we preserve the essence of "the catholic church." When I receive my sacrament, I am getting the real presence. We observe the creed, and we consistently practice our sacramental theology.
dsindc
When Paul describes the church as "the body of Christ," he also makes clear that the church is implicated in sin and not only fallible, but always already fallen. Being "the body of Christ" is ... not the kind of metaphor which means "is identical to". The RC church also believes this ... as the Magisterium is also not "the church," but only a part, albeit a significant one.
painful that folks malign an integrious regard for Christianity...we are Episcopalians and we deeply love GOD.
michael coo I totally agree. We totally love God, and what's awesome is that God loves everyone.
@Mauser2012 Not too different, although a woman priest may be in charge in an Episcopal service. It wouldn't hurt to try it, if you're really interested.
@ 1:09
"We are strongly traditional church." --> Has a female as their leader.
"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."
1 Timothy 2:12
@iotaunam1 That is certainly one view of the matter. Viewed most positively, however, Henry VIII wished to establish the national identity of England and free it from the control of the Italian popes. The pope probably would have granted Henry the annulment, except that Catherine's nephew, King Charles of Spain, was laying siege to Rome.
What an amazing answer!
@episconerd What matters more is what she teaches, not what she believes (which strictly speaking we can't know for sure). Re. the resurrection: she teaches that whether it happened or not is unimportant; she always directs our attention away from the resurrection itself by "metamorphizing" it and getting us to think about other things - e.g. environmentalism. Not that this isn't important - it simply isn't the resurrection. Read #1 when you google, it's long. You can also PM me with questions.
There’s many place that offers what she says.
Yes, this is why I hate the modern episcopal marketing strategy. "We're the progressive church", well every church is progressive these days. We're getting so many outsiders from other denominations and atheists that our church has lost its vision of being the American branch of the Anglican communion. Half of the newcomers don't even know what Anglicanism is, and the church is alienating all of its traditional Anglican followers.
God has called us to love others, however, He has not called us to come into agreement with sin by "blessing it" thereby giving it legitimacy. Along with the Leviticus scripture on sodomy, 1 Cor 6:9-10 also addresses sexual sins: Fornication, adultery, effeminacy, sodomy (homosexuality). If sodomites are to be blessed, then those who commit adultery & fornication should also be blessed. However, God does not "bless" any of these sexual sins, and neither should I. Love people, not sin!
Does God love abominations?
I am a christian-cultured agnostic who now attends (every 3 weeks) an episcopal mass only because of my habitude of attending church during childhood. I feel guilty at times when i give it a thought, its like I am using this institution to satisfy my psychological habits.
Hey, whatever brings you to the Episcopal Church, please know that "The Episcopal Church Welcomes You".
btw, she doesn't deny the divinity of Christ if you allow her to re-define "divinity" to mean "an important moral teacher who taught us brilliant things, " or redefine resurrection to mean "feeling like you can go beyond & be all you can be." [note .. not her words exactly]. She says she does affirm these teachings ... but in re-defining them she is denying what the Church teaches.
I've worked with a number of Episcopal church leaders & there are big probs in this area, it's heartbreaking.
(final)- It seems to me Shostakovich begins the 5th with a haunting theme, a sort of knock on the door much like Beethoven's in his 5th. I think it represents the existential question "to be or not to be". To adhere to any dogmatic tradition in my view represents a decision - not to be. In the conclusion of that masterpiece, man wins out (likely at Stalin's insistence). But the piece is instructive. To accept dogma, is to become less human. Reason must prevail. Matters of faith are not exempt.
Well, I certainly am happy to belong to a denomination that has the guts to admit that we don't know all yet about God, and yes, I'm not sorry we've kept and perfected most of the great music in Christendom.
Darn right I'm an Episcopalian.
Indeed, to say that Jesus is (in her case, WAS), an important teacher," is NOT to deny Christ's divinity. To * reduce * Christ's divinity to this - saying it means ONLY this - and brush the rest off as "mythology" - IS to deny what the NT teaches us of His divinity. Have you read her Parabola Spring 2007 interview yet?
I would argue that the Apostolic line was not broken, because those "appointed" Bishops were Concencrated as Priests likely through the original Apostolic Succession of the Roman Catholic Church in the first place, plus the English Reformation differed greatly from their continental counterparts in the sense that we did not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Having all this said, I say this with no intention of disrespect for Roman Catholicism. I almost converted to Roman Catholicism.
@ponyboy1488
No, I won't get into the issue here in small comment boxes. I have offered to discuss indepth by PM, but 9 time out of 10 people do not/cannot discuss the issue in depth, and therefore continue to post small one liners. If you want to debate/discuss the issue in depth I will be happy to by PM. Also, the "anger" you mention does not exist on my part; I am just tired of having to refute the same errors so many time. I have debated this issue too many times to remember.
No, they don't teach that 7 sacraments are necessary for salvation - there are 2 sacraments, and one is not necessarily excluded from salvation without either. But it is true that many are very much compromised, and the leadership of TEC sometimes seems to be teaching a different gospel. You are right though, sadly, to watch out.
@EpiscopalMatthew Just as the Jews took Passover to reflect on how God saved them and brought them out of bondage in Egypt, Christ asked us to remember Him and His suffering on our behalf.
@50heaven The episcopal church uses scripture in litgury and communion.
Your choice, choirboy, if you don't wanna know, you don't wanna know - it's the interview, I got it initially from TEC's own site on a page about KJS. They pulled it after people started quoting it (don't know if that's WHY though).
Much more important that you serve Christ than engage in discussions on bishops etc.. There are good reasons also for not wanting to know, and I respect that.
Who exactly is it who decides which of Christ's teachings you will accept, and which you will disgard? Do you keep a list so Episcopalians reading the Bible don't become confused?
jdththegr8 - for years, TEC was just not affirming the core doctrines - I mean, what Lutherans, Methodists, Presbies, Catholics, Baptists, etc. Now, Schori is actively casting doubt on them. This means the sense of "Christian" is now different - TEC is "Christian" in the sense that Muslims, Mormons, and Jehovahs Witnesses are, who all believe in Christ, but isn't Trinitarian.
She has admitted in public that either Jesus, Buddha, or Mohammad will save you. She said it doesn't matter.
@Mauser2012 if you're going to leave over a few changed words, then so be it. But you'll be surprised when you go to different churches and you'll hear some of the words that are in the new mass like "visible and invisible" "incarnate" etc. The same words that you're leaving over...
"we are a strongly traditional church" ... yes lesbian bishop very traditional
She's not a lesbian. She has a husband.
>woman
>leadership position
>short hair
>husky voice
"Must be a lesbian!"
Lol
May The Episcopal Church soon come in Full Communion with the Holy Catholic Church.
10. No snake handling.
9. You can believe in dinosaurs.
8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them.
7. You don't have to check your brains at the door.
6. Pew aerobics.
5. Church year is color-coded.
4. Free wine on Sunday.
3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt.
2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized.
And the Number One reason is:
1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you.
@mindspring57
No: it is not merely "one view" it is the Truth, which is not subjective. The reason which I gave for Henry's founding of the Anglican sect is a historic fact, which is well documented. That Henry was trying to "free" England from Iitalian" power is absurd, given Henry's published defence of the Papacy to counter Martin Luther and the reformers; for which he was awarded his title by the Pope. That is until he wanted to break Christs law himself.
@jimdela Why then did she call herself "Dean" in the Ministry Experience information? I'd say "Dean of the Good Shepherd School of Theology of Corvallis OR" would lead many voters to believe she'd been something other than head of adult education classes at her parish. Furthermore this wasn't reported so on her election as Diocesan bishop of Nevada. Google Good Samaritan School of Theology for more info.
"Theology" is an enterprise which can be engaged in by both those within the church and those without ... the church "receives" theologies when it finds them to be true, or reflective of who we believe God to be. Theologies can be profitably studied, without commending them to belief - or even disagreeing with them. The church received Trinitarian Christology in the first two ecumenical councils; the Communion officially accepts the first four.
I couldn't go there a woman preacher?
Then I’d like to formally ask you not to. Ever. If you’ve got a problem with it, don’t come.
@@frogtownroad9104 please don't worry I won't.
@@mikescarlett3186 We appreciate it so much.
I know better but you don't.
@@frogtownroad9104 I wouldn't walk away from that place I would run.
I think it's safest to say - the question of "adoptionism / eternal divinity of Christ wasn't really a "live issue" for Mark - it isn't really addressed. In a way, it doesn't have to be - it becomes an issue when our theology / theory advances into new areas where challenges arise. Mark did not know of these challenges ... so in a way I find the adoptionist/non-adoptionist distinction to be an anachronism for Mark.
Read works by those names I listed you'll see your wrong. "It would be a more unworthy course for God to spare the evil-doer then to punish him, especially in the most good and holy God, who is not otherwise fully good than as the enemy of evil, and that to such a degree as to display His love of good by the hatred of evil, and to fulfil His defence of the former by the extirpation of the latter." - Tertullian, Against Marcion Book 1, Chapter 26. God is a loving God and a just God
2cat, you're welcome to your opinion on KJS - be wary though of what people in your church tell you of other churches and "what those Christians believe." You may be enticed to believe you're more tolerant and intelligent than the others (this is KJS's line, which is why I bring it up here). But I've seen very little "thinking" really happening in TEC, which makes painting others as less intelligent ... arrogant. Visit other churches to find out what the other Christians are really like.
@ponyboy1488
I use the "so called" in front of "orthodox" for the same reason I use it before "reformation". Only the True Church is Orthodox properly so called.
Again, I will not discuss here. PM if you want to discuss indepth.
Actually I'm a bit surprised that this rattles so many people since she invited Spong to teach her clergy in 2003 - and he is famous for this kind of thing. I'm happy people care in the divinity of Christ and the resurrection!
If you want a milktoast religion that will make you feel good about yourself and not require any sacrifice and where even devil worship is seen as "well that is not a good thing; but let me pray on it so you don't hurt yourself" then the Episcopal Church is the place to be. A Place where good and evil do not exist because all is relative and we do not want to hurt anyone's feelings because there really is no right or wrong except perhaps wanting to raise children with a mother and dad in a marriage. But being a transexual is great and being a homosexual is even better. That is why I left this church because it was not consonant with the New Testament as Jesus Christ taught it and is written in the New Testament.
@1macboo Not true at all. There was a minority of early church fathers who questioned the classical view of eternal hell taught in the Jewish and Early Christian tradition but Justin Martyr, Polycarp, Iraneus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Jerome, and Augustine all affirm the notion of eternal suffering. But what was certainly debated in the early church was whether an unregenerate sinner's soul was annihilated and destroyed or existent and forever suffering.
I gotta say that was the most ambiguity answer I have heard. =/
"Please release your hate and judgement"? For so long I've read that Episcopalians like me "don't have to check their brains at the door" implying others do. This pride of intellect is damning. Yet, the same brothers show gross lack of wisdom by using reversible arguments. There are Bible believing brothers and sisters in the Episcopal church, but not in the main stream.
brettpatrick, what is your opinion of the orthodox church and the gnostics? they each also claim to be put in place by christ. According to orthodox the bishop of Rome started asserting more authority than the other patriarchs and left the orthodox church as a result
The guy said "why should I join the Episcopalian church" and the woman said "your'e sitting here" In other words if you were willing to take the time to show up than it must have something your looking for.
I can tell you this - the Bible says that you will stand before the judgment seat of Christ who will judge your every idle word, thought, and deed. You will not be able to plead ignorance. Jesus gave his life as a ransom for yours. He paid the death sentence you owe God as the penalty for your sins for He is holy; sinners cannot stand in the holiness and glory of the eternal God. God, for love of us, sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to give His life as a ransom for all who would believe in Him.
That is true ... but +Schori seems to be telling us that there is less to Christ than what we believe - that Jesus was a man with interesting moral teachings, and that the word "God" means something like "being good" or "being nice," and does not mean: our creator, our savior - OR that - it doesn't really matter if the Church teaches these things or not.
I've had responses similar to yours from other Episcopalians - sort of, "well so what if she denies it? I dig her anyway!"
"Why should you be an Episcopalian?" You should be an Episcopalian if you are looking for glitz without guilt, for a "religious experience" that does not demand faith or commitment, and for an organization that promotes the view that "anything goes."
"You have ministry by virtue of being baptized"
I would love it, if someone could think of one single Christian denomination or Church that doesn't believe that. Heck even pseudo Christians like Mormons believe that.
My "Priest" is a "Priest." You might not like the fact that he can get married, but his priesthood is valid. Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism are all equally "catholic." I also accept that Anglicanism is as "protetstant" as it is "catholic," and that is what make us unique.
an oppurtunity to experience the love of a motherly leadership. I could experience the love of Blessed Mother Mary not only in Rosary devotion but also in hierarchy as shown by a female bishop. Virgin Mary was conceived in Holy Spirit, therefore the same Spirit manifest its fullness in a woman Bishop. Mary is not just a statue and icon which we've seen but also walking among us, speaking for justice and love of Christ. If Im a little Jesus on earth, we also have little Mary on earth.
peace be with you
Women cannot be bishops or priests. Both early church history and the Bible are very clear on this issue. The TEC is a mess, only the few remaining conservative Anglo-Catholic parishes within the church are worth visiting
Lackawanna Cut? Not sure what that is...
Check your e-mail.
Now the +Ding-Dong in South Carolina is making schism noises, sad, I sang as a soloist at an evensong at St. Michael's on Meeting Street a few years ago, while working a shipyard job in North Charleston.
@ponyboy1488
Thats not what I said -read what I wrote. Also, I thought you would refuse an indepth debate on the issue.
Where is it written that Jacob "assembled" any liturgy?
I'll be remembering you and your little church.
If you want to pray online with me and some other people, send me a private message - it's quite likely I'll be praying with people online on Christmas Eve, I don't really have much else to do either.
I saw that; CAndiron PMed me some source information. To say the least, it's disturbing. I first considered the Episcopalians because they shared many of my political views. However, I won't lie that the leadership being displayed now is unsettling where it really matters. My local Episcopalian church appears to have better support of the "core doctrine" than Schori might have. Whether or not that's truth is debatable, but this has been very eye-opening; I may have to consider another branch...
PS Henry VIII...his dad was a devout Catholic.
So what's stopping you? Certainly can't be triple valves, 24RL brakestands and out of profile flanges?
@episconerd You'd need to see her many references to Sallie McFague and Marcus Borg, know her affiliation with Bishop Spong; also look through her Easter sermons & other relevant material. Unless you think "the resurrection is just a metaphor & if it happened isn't really important," you'll see that she's pointing away from the event itself, and speaking of "transformation" in terms of the change she'd like to see with her political aims (many good, but still not the same as the resurrection).
@TheArsenalfc101 And??? Here's the thing, I'm episcopalian for me. I'm not episcopalian for Bishop Schori. I've never heard her say anything 'new age relativism', unless your talking about the policy on homosexuality. I actually support it because all people should know God loves them, and let God change them, not be chastised by the congregants.
Anyway, it's not supposed to be about 'tradition' or even policy. The church, ANY CHURCH, should be about God.
imo there HAS to be a spirit of agreeing, there are of difference in opinion concerning the bible so how would going to this church be any different then going to any other church. follow the spirit.
With as much Christian Love as I can muster I have to say, the hate perpetuated by those who claim diversity and are practicing "social justice" through the church is a sham. Heresy means nothing to those who use the church to perpetuate their power under the guise of compassion. They think nothing of destroying a centuries old church in order to skin it and then use that skin to hide their own claws, fangs, and teeth. They are a cancer, they eat from the inside mutilating as they go all in the name of compassion. To call them wolves in sheep clothing would be to slight wolves. The Episcopal church once stood for something, now it stands for what is popular and progressive with no regards to scripture (unless cherry picked) and tradition. Anglican is they way I prefer to refer to myself but even that is beginning to suffer the same fate. Beware those who wish to change a church more than they want to perpetuate it because you just might be the child of Christ thrown out with the bath water.
You’re really clueless, and have never stepped one foot inside an episcopal church.
Another anonymous internet coward.
@TheArsenalfc101 I agree in part with you. Using it dangerously is worse than not at all, however if the bible were never translated, few people would know what the bible actually said. The potential for misleading people become greater, the herectical faction goes up higher. The responsiblity of every christian regardless of denomination to know what the bible says.
The problem I have is Episcopalians have this attitude they are better than everyone else and that really sticks in my craw. It's ever so subtle but its always there and they think even the RC church is not the true church that some how they are. There is so much I like Anglicans have but that attitude I don't want to be a party too and so far I have barely met one that is not a hard drinker and that won't work for me. A little humility and a little less booze and you would have a winner! Peace Out.
I have visited many denominations and been snubbed by all of them. Yes, some Episcopalians are snooty, but most of them are humble and kind. I don't know when you last visited an Episcopal church, but the church has gone through many changes. It is no longer considered 'the wealthy man's church." And some churches are friendlier than others. Sometimes people get the attitude that we are snooty, because we are quiet before Mass. We aren't trying to ignore anyone, but are being reverent to God, and getting prepared for worship. As for alcohol, some people drink, but we don't hide it. And we don't walk around drunk. I see enough drunks who attend churches, who forbid alcohol, but many of them drink in secret. The sin lies in drunkenness. My mother used to run into so many people she knew, who attended Fundamentist churches, in the liquor store. So we, 'whiskypalians,' as we are nicknamed, are not drunken and snobby. But our church acknowledges our weaknesses, as each denomination should do. And the Episcopal church helps the poor, homeless, those who are wrestling with faith, and we stand for justice, things Jesus told us to do. All are welcome.
I disagree. As an Episcopalian, I know that we love God and our faith. It is right for us, even though we sometimes have too much 'Episcopal pride'. Episcopalians are very happy in the way they worship God, and are often misunderstood, because we have found a faith where we feel closer to God. We don't push people to be Episcopalians, but we would love people to know that we are not well known, and would love anyone to visit, to see if the Episcopal Church is a way they might find God.
peterann1 I'll remember you & your congregation during this Christmas season. That must be really, really tough.
2 hours N of you in Haddon Heights is St. Mary's Episcopal with rector Peter Jansma, he seems pretty cool, did seminary in the UK, not in a TEC seminary. Maybe you can phone him or visit him sometime. He might have fresh ideas.
That's very interesting! Nope, I'm rather open-minded. Any links are welcome, PM or otherwise. I haven't really looked much into Schori, and considering all the accusations now, I guess it deserves a look by me, at the very least. And yes, I believe your decriptions make a very good "lowest common denominator" I am glad that you agree on that, too. We're all fellow Christians here, in the end.