WHAT Are Tangential Lathe Tools?
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- Опубликовано: 21 июл 2024
- G'day everyone,
I have made lots of lathe tools over the past few years, however one tool that I have not used is a tangential tool or a diamond lathe tool. These lathe tools are designed to use the end of a HSS blank as the cutting edge. The cutter is held almost vertically, but is tilted back at a slight angle to create the necessary relief. In doing so you only have to grind one face of the HSS lathe tool.
In this video I will be making my own lathe tool holder and grinding jig in order to be able to use the tangential tooling.
I hope you enjoy the video
Tangential lathe tooling
Tangential Tool Holder
Diamond Tool Holder
#machining #DIY #minilathe
Timestamps
0:00 - Intro
1:02 - Tool Holder - No Clearance
2:36 - Filing In Clearance By Hand
3:35 - Making A Grinding Jig In The Mill
4:56 - Testing The Grind
5:11 - Machining A Tool Holder In the Mill
6:37 - Testing The New Tool Holder
7:29 - Machining The Final Tool Holder
8:47 - Modifying The Clamping System
9:31 - Conclusion
Mini Lathe - Sieg c3 7x14 Metal Mini Lathe
Milling Machine - Sieg X2.7l 
Наука
Thanks for this video. I have one of the Australian tangential tools (Diamond tools) which I often use on both my Myford ML7 and my Taig lathe (Peatol here in UK). I use it with square and round HSS and it works very well, the round HSS especially gives a nice finish. The biggest advantage is the ease of sharpening HSS, and lack of wastage on re-sharpening. Also the ease of getting the tool ‘on centre’ without using shims etc. They don’t like interrupted cuts, which tend to hammer the tool bit down in the holder. Les in UK
Me too and I use Crobalt tool bits. Like you I use a standard tool for interrupted cuts as they also seem to take the edge off the diamond tool quickly. Robert in Aust.
'Eccentric Engineering'..The chap makes ingenious thingammajigs!!
Great video! I bought the Eccentric Engineering diamond tool holder & the inverted parting tool for my Optimun TU2004V lathe. Due to the excessive overhang, I found that the tool would catch easily, so I ditched the QT tool post & went back to the standard tool post & the results are now exceptional.
Very nice! I love the the step by step “lets go with an ABSOLUTELY basic approach and slowly increase” way this video was done!
Glad you enjoyed it, cheers
I really enjoy your take on things. Makes me feel like I’m learning with you. Thanks for bringing us along. 👌🏼
Nice way to explain the proof of concept and the final product without resorting to a whole lot of math or "to understand this we need to do some math"
I must say my diamond tool holder is my go to toll for cutting. I use it for most of my lathing and it has never let me down.
Keep up the good work!
Edit: Nearly 20K subscribers. Well done!
I simply adore my tangential “diamond tool” from Eccentric Engineering in Australia. Well worth the money invested. The finish I get on steel or aluminium is insane. 👌The ease of maintaining a sharp edge is also a Godsend. 👏👏👍😀
I have just purchased the diamond tool and find it's give excellent good finish and is better than normal tool steel arrangement.
Life time as a machinist, I learned something new, thank you, 🇬🇧👍.
Great video, highly informative and useful.
Very great video /info on tangencial tools. This tool geometry made it's way into the standard HSS tool world of lathe tool bits [diamond grind shape] ironical from the use of this grind on HSS tools used in the balance and roller box tooling from screw machines back in the 1930's thru 70's IMHO.
Check out 'Eccentric Engineering'.
Both square & round tangential tools work amazingly well with brass, cast iron, aluminium, plastics & composites.
Would have loved to see the finishing comparison on a longer piece of material with tailstock support.
If you twist-mount the HSS blank, it works as a shear tool too. The surface finish is dramatically improved over 99% of inserts that a DIY enthusiast can afford.
The lathe headstock does need to be as rigid as possible though, Worn out bearings will leave a chattery finish with any cutting tool, hss or carbide or CBN.
This principle has been used in form tools. It is easily sharpened as you pointed out, and the form isn't lost in the process. Another style is a partial circle with an adjustable means to keep it from rotating under load. I've considered making threading tools with the profile following the length of the blank. Probably would use a set/grub screw to adjustably counteract the axial load.
Wanna' do and do are two separate things.
Nice seeing the tool evolve as you worked through to the finished product. I have seen another maker using drill rod for the cutter, makes creating the holder alot easier.
As always, thanks for sharing
Cheers
I'm a bit fascinated by these. I think I'll try and make one too. Have tried a cutter with a small radius honed on the leading edge? I wonder if that would improve surface finish. Happy Holidays!
Great info, 👍
Watching the grinders tool rest flex might make for a good future project upgrade!
It's all getting replaced soon so it's not a big priority.
Very interesting video, thanks for documenting your experiments.
If nothing else you will have one more option in your tool kit.
YES, i love that video
I wonder if you could soft solder the tool bit in place, since the heat wouldn't be enough to ruin the temper
I might have a go at this. A mate was raving about that diamond tooling mob, but the price of their holders is ridiculous, over $80 for a tool holder from memory, and other tool holders for hss steel seemed to be made for lathes that take 16mm or bigger tooling.
Been using my diamond tool holder for over 20 years now. Still have the same 6 pieces of tool bit i bought originally
Thank you, very interesting
Thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching!
I'm new here. But I have a comment question.
While cutting some flat stock in my vice in my basement, with my hacksaw I ended up pushing too hard (1/8th x 2" ) I split my index finger nail in half at the base of thr nail threw my finger on the last stroke. It was amazingly bad. That was November ish 2019. For that christmass my wife allowed me to buy a used milwaukee porta band saw. I had one previously but sold it to a friend the year before because he was in need and at the time I was not using it nearly enough to justify it.
I made it wall mount by a 2x4 steel tube that I cut the face and sides to accept the tools forward handle and welded it to a plate at the right angle to hang the saw.
I made a 4 inch wide by 7 inch long cutting table that bolts around the foot of the saw and while semi stable, it is actually really good.
I will make a video of this conversion from a handheld portaband saw to wall mount if you ask for one.
But here is thr question. Have you considered swapping the hacksaw out for a different tool like a portaband? Or handheld bandsaw?
I use a diamond tangential tool mostly when using HSS on both my main lathe and my Russian mini lathe.
fantastic
A handy design for using small bits of HSS and easy to set on centre height. However unless you grind a small nose radius onto the cutting tip it will wear out almost immediately. If you did that, it wouldn't technically be ground just on the top face.
Quick grind on the wheel then just touch up the nose with a fine diamond hone. Quick and simple
You can round it on a stone, I used this one a bit and the edge didn't burn up. it seemed to be a lot stronger than a sharp edge on a conventional tool. Made it super useful in taking light passes.
One problem I see is that the tool will want to slip downward and nothing is there to stop it. I like the idea of just holding it at a compound angle and grinding one face, but the extra bulk at the front does add some additional limitations.
Thank you for your information regarding the lack of space with the mini-lathe. So you have done well to fit what looks like a 1/4", 6mm sq cutter. Regards, Mervyn Price. My lathe is an ML7
To improve this you could make the dovetail of the qcth built in to the cutter
Certainly a design to consider. I've seen one or two online that use that design, though when I filmed this I probably didn't have the correct material size to make one. Cheers
Complete genius. Now make one for old drills to make radiuses
There are a lot of these cutters about. Your video was interesting. It showed the principals involve., Looking at how these things are normally made, would have produced a better design. Clamping a square HSS tool is simply an evolution of clamping a round HSS tool.
I know of the other clamping types, they wouldn't work here due to the limited space I had. This design gives the most amount of clearance in the given space. Cheers
I noticed the part of stock was wobbling or uneven, is that the stock or the placement in the chuck, just wonder if it's the machine or the stock, not knowing how good these Mimi lathes are compared to high grade full size lathes , thanks for the vids
The stock rotated simply because I was holding onto the factory finished section which isn't perfectly round and concentric to the machined part. This mini lathe is pretty decent for its size, though I have done a bit of work to it. Normally with this chuck I'll get 40 microns of run out which is fine for most work I do.
Nicely Done! Have you considering heat treating your tool holder?
If I needed more strength from it I could have it case hardened, but on this lathe it is rigid enough for what I need. Cheers
I like the evolution of your tool design here. Most people don't show their failed attempts. 👍
There is a few plans for these floating around the net including an interesting one that uses round HSS. Apparently a very small radius of the point improves cutting even further.
There is also a commercially available tool made in AUS which I would like to get my hands on. 😎😎
See if you can find a supplier of Solid Carbide blanks, then make a holder for those.
I might give it a try, since i make most of my lathe tools from Solid Carbide, broken or blunt Endmills,
In the past i have used square pieces of Solid Carbide which did the job excellently, though i had to grind them on 3 faces..
I use a Diamond wheel to sharpen them, and.. i admit.. boring bars are made on a wire EDM machine..
Well done on your experiments, so few bother these days and just settle for insert tooling.
You will find that 12 degrees forward and sideways work well with a 30 degree grind across the top. You will also fine a small radius, a few thou or so, on the cutting corner running the entire length gives a more durable tool.
It beats me why these tools seem to have gone out of favour in Edwardian times, except for in things like roller box tools, but these days for home shops they are a brilliant money saver and go to show that all those angles listed in the usual literature for different materials is a touch of baloney.
Because insert tooling is just....better.
@@elanjacobs1 there are times when TC inserts are the only way to go, like hogging great cuts or machining really tough hardened steels but if you want a 10micron cut in say stainless forget it. Insert tooling was created to fill an industry need of which the home shop has little. Because inserts are created for industrial machinery most are in fact totally unsuitable for low power manual machines and the ones that are are tend not to be cheap.
@@chrisstephens6673 The entire xCxT range are suitable for low power machines. A ground carbide insert will also take a 10 micron cut if you want to.
@@elanjacobs1 But for virtually free, I think not. I have been using the same piece of HSS for the last 3 or 4 years and it will last my lifetime and does basically all my turning and facing( totalling perhaps 90%) save for parting.
The really good fine cutting inserts tend to be exceedingly brittle, personally I love Sumitomo Cermet(titanium carbide) but for most purposes they are uneconomic, even more so when they chip. 😭
I don't have a lathe but I watch all your videos. This may be a dumb question but what is stopping you from cutting tangentially from a horizontal angle? A tangential cut is relative so I'm thinking you could have a horizontal tool and start your cut at the top of the piece. Stick out would be more but forces would be in-line with the tool and tool post. Maybe I just answered my own question. If forces are pushing back at the tool post, it might kick out the whole tool post? Thoughts
Interesting tooling...never seen a tool that looks like that...but I guess it seems to cut pretty darn nice
Interesting
Видео очень хорошее.
Автор на личном примере убедился, что такое "передний угол" "задний угол" и другие вспомогательные углы заточки резца. Весьма полезно.
Изобретён велосипед;))
Ничего страшного
You should really hone about a .008" radius on the corner of the cut edge. Leaving it sharp is a no-no. It will prevent chipping and give you a more consistent surface finish.
Probably, though I've been using this tool for taking light cuts and the sharp edge is perfect for it. The edge seems to be more resilient to wear than a Sharp edge on a conventional hss tool
What advantage does this 'tangential' tool bring? As I see it, effectively the rake, clearance and cutting wedge are about the same as conventional tools, but in a vertical toolbit orientation.
cutting force goes down "into" the HSS, and as a result there's a lot less chatter and vibration. with traditional tooling it's cantilevered out and this creates a much stronger moment force. have a look at the Diamond Tool Holder made by eccentric engineering in australia
I have one and it is very easy to grind. I bought mine over 20 years ago.
And you only need to grind the top relief angle.
@@guitarchitectural But I see that the tool is held with just a screw, there is no base to support the cutting forces, as with traditional tools. And that will eventually lead to chatter and vibration, not to mention other hazards associated with a lathe tool not held tight. The benefits of tangential tooling certainly do not outweigh the disadvantages as seen in this video. That said, the video shows turning on nylon and plastics. Would love to see this tool in action on real steel.
@@SubramaniamLakshminarayanan I do steel at the end without any issue. I was quite skeptical of this diamond tool, hence why I never bothered trying one until now. Seemed to work just fine without chatter in this set up. Granted you might want a little more to hold it in place if you are taking deep cuts. I don't see it as being better or worse than other types of tooling, it has some advantages and drawbacks.
Going try it with just plastic
It’s somewhat amusing, but tangential tools go back to the mid 1800s. While they didn’t use tool holders the way we do today, they forged the entire tool as one piece. But the cutting portion was shaped like the tool blank in a modern holder, but not as long. They just ground the top. They could get a number of grinds out of it. But no HSS back then, just “tool steel”, high carbon steel, no alloying.
I find the need to have tool holders that must be held in other tool holders a pain as you can only have one type of tool, whereas you also need to do threading, parting, boring and grooving etc.........the normal QCTP holders provide enough tool holding functions for normal square tool bits without special tool holders that need special tool bit grinding......true you can use up short bits of HSS but I use them for boring bar inserts anyway.
The issue is mostly that as you grind your clearances and rakes to the tool, you need to cut the tip off and make a new one every now and then as it wears lower. With this style, you just touch up the top until it's used up
@@MF175mp Yes, I'm fully aware of the design and how it works, the guy who invented and made them went to our model club......this is very much like the tool holders on the old lathes with the lantern style tool post..........it's only suitable for one specific tool shape.
I use a lot of HSS tooling in my QCTP but I wouldn't want to have to use one of these tool holders.....my preference.
BTW, if you grind your normal tool correctly you only need to grind the front or end face back to get a new edge, not the top or sides etc......most of the time it's the first front mm or two that gets damaged..........I use a tool that has a short grooved lip cut into the top and it only gets re-ground on the front face whenever.
I have just picked up a old Hercus lathe 1957 era due to being on a disability pension i dont have alot of money. Can i buy one of these holders . I cannot afford the carbide tool and bits so i was going to learn to sharpen Hss. But with this it looks like it would be even easier. Type c lathe . I can use up to 20 mm holder. Let me know if you would consider selling one also i live in perth Australia 6174 . Cheers Andy Andy
Got one of these 15 years ago. I would have saved a fortune if I knew about it before buying carbide tools which chip on my cheap 7x14.
That cystem is very good to use in round HSS Blanks or broken drill bits and broken taps to make round grooves or to make interropted cuts
Cool project! ... your corner radius might be a bit too small though.
Cheers, perfect for taking super light cuts though, the sharp edge seems to be much more resilient than a Sharp edge on a conventional tool.
@@artisanmakes Ah ok - that's interesting! ... I was thinking of surface finish but that's hard to judge from a video...
Just watch Eccentric Engineering videos…👍 Diamond Tool Holder
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
That is not what I was taught as Tangential Cutting. You have created a conventional tool face simply on the end of the blank, which is Tangential Tooling, as stated. The faces and reliefs are presented no differently to the work than a conventionally held tool. Hence the cutting is essentially the same and tool maintenance is simplified,
Tangential Cutting is where the cutting edge is a line where two faces meet which is tangent ( in the X-Y plane) to the center of the work. This would normally be the edge where the side and end relief faces meet. This edge is held at a slight angle to the work in the Y-Z plane, tipping toward the tail stock. The normal cutting edge (with which you are cutting) is well above the center of the work and never comes in contact.
The actual cutting is effected as the work rotates it moves down into the slightly angled (back) edge of the tool in a shearing motion. If you’ve ever seen a cut-style knurler, or a rotary broach, the principle of using angular change in motion to apply tool pressure is the same.
However, your take on this topic is in compliance with the conventional presentation for tooling. It is important that the distinction between Tangential tooling and cutting are made. I guess you need really old textbooks, or old mentors (as in my case) to get the original ideas before they get lost in translation over time. I believe you'll find Tangential Cutting far more interesting and useful.
Nicely done, keep up the good work.
The developer of this type of tooling came from Melbourne Australia. I was teaching teaching when they came on the market students could obtain good cutting on the old her us lathes.
I thought that the tangential tool holder had been around in various guises since the 19th century, and the “diamond” tool holder was a development of an earlier design (excellent tool holder)
@@peterjames4435 yes been around for a long time. They were a boon for the students in the secondary system the lathes had flat belt drives and flat beds. I think there was a holder in the kit to help with grinding.
LOL....small world.......in the 80's and 90's I went to the MSMEE, the model engineering club in Glen Iris in Melbourne where the guy who made them also went.
@@gangleweed I started teaching at Sunshine Tech.
I thought you made a die filer??? 😁👍👍
Yeah. It does amazing work, but the files I have will only allow it to remove a small amount of material. Easier to use the big coarse cut file. Cheers
I kind of like how you're always using a hacksaw. It's like when a woodworker has all the machines to do something, but they use hand tools instead for the craftsmanship. One tends to sweat when using a hacksaw so you can say you put your sweat into it. Now where to get the blood and tears?
I don't remember he has a bandsaw
Looking at the top face of your diamond tool, I was thinking, "geez! this looks just like a carbide insert."
It's like a circular thread cutter but not circular! I like it!
So in the end you end up with something that looks like "insert tooling"!? You never know until you try!
Vice in a vice
Hi Artisan Makes, you have an accent that i cant pick, where are you from mate.
Australian :)
I've never used tools like this personally but one aspect I could see being a problem is how the cutting forces appear to want to push the tool back along the slot of the toolholder, meaning the screw it taking most of that force to hold the tool in place. traditional tool holders are set up so the force is perpendicular to the slot.
So do they make a tangential insert? LOL
I fail to see the logic. What’s the point of creating another joint when you can grind tools in hss or carbide on a diamond wheel that are far more rigid. What you’re calling a good surface finish look very rough to me.
Is mostly down to grinding one face rather than 3.
I watched but i still dont think I get it. A lot of tool holder building to use a HHS bit in a odd way. Someone school me.
Good effort...but eccentric have done all that and more.
They’re dear but at least we’re supporting our countrymen.
Happy 2022 Virus free
Cheers. The eccentric tool holder looks really nice, depending how much use I get out of this tool I might look into buying one. This was more of just seeing how it works, rather than making the perfect tool holder.
@@artisanmakes Good luck to you and congratulations on your effort.
My brother bought the system and uses it all the time on an ML7 and a bigger version on a much bigger lathe.
I hope you find that it’s a useful addition to your collection, they didn’t invent it but cleverly ran with it.
Quick sharpening and reliable geometry and finish
So good to hear that you’re from a machining family.
Keep it going mate
Just use insert tooling
I use inserts more than I use hss, but hss still has its place in my workshop for thermoplastic and aluminium and light passes in steel. You do you but carbide isn't always the best tool for the job. Cheers
Hi after watching this video I looked into the tooling and fond this ruclips.net/video/lHs0xVRwuzE/видео.html
Waste of time, insert tools whip the arse of hss. I keep hss for odd shapes and when you need to grind your own special. Hss is too slow an over heats on big cuts.
I use inserts more than I use hss, but hss still has its place in my workshop for thermoplastic and aluminium and light passes in steel. You do you but carbide isn't always the best tool for the job. Cheers
Eccentric Engineering supply Crobalt tool bits which are a cast alloy made from 50% Cobalt, with the other 50% being Tungsten, Chromium, their carbides and some other additives. The have the same advantages of inserts over HSS and the same advantages of HSS too. They are particularly good on small low powered lathes. Nothing wrong with inserts of course.
@@robertwalker7457 that makes it better then but the tool over hanging so far is going chatter like hell on a decent cut? Plus the work is always pushing the tool out of the holder. Being a time served engineer, working lathes and milling, I'd say the design is not really much use on anything more than a hobby lathe.
@@michaelbamber4887 Yes I think a winner on smaller lathes, I can make a 3mm cut in mild steel on a 9*20 no trouble. I think they would be every where in industry by now if they we suited there but as you say are not?
@@robertwalker7457 we had insert tooling for every job. Negative and positive rake, chip breakers and plane tips for cast iron/ brass, parting tools and thread cutting tools with tips of different angles for metric or imperial. Boring bars for holes 8mm up. On the big lathe you can take 25mm off the diameter in one pass. The advantage of tips is doing big cuts, the heat is carried away with the swarf and the tip stays cooler that hss, plus if it happened (should not of course) you got to much heat a tip can still cut while glowing red, hss just melts its edge with the resulting crash damage. Also tips can cut tough steels like stainless better.
But...why? Insert tools are so cheap, why even bother with HSS?
I use carbide for most of my work but it isn't always the best tool for the job, depending on the cut and material.
@@artisanmakes Aside from form tools, I have yet to find a situation where HSS is better, especially on small machines. The xCxT insert range is so comprehensive that there's pretty much always something that fits what you need.
Not much to recommend it. That tail is always in the way and the grinding is only a minor benefit.
Yeah, it seemed to cause more issues, but some people really do swear by this type of tool.
you dont cut stock by hand in 21 century!
Can't see the point.
your voice only come in left side it's annoying
Thanks for letting me know, that's an issue with final cut
Wouldn't it make more sense to use a tool laying down horizontally with a back slope and just grind the same diamond but on the bottom? Lmfao. You have overcomplicated this to the max. Like imagine if you could just tip a standard toolholder back 15-35 degrees, drop it down to center it, and single diamond to create relief angles.
I don't see it creating the necessary relief angles, but if you want to try, I'd love to see that in action. With this tool, I don't see you its overcomplicated, just a slot angled back 10 degrees in 2 directions and a locking grub screw. A lot of people love these style tools, and I can see the value in it, though its certainly not for everyone. Cheers
I appreciate people teaching other, this is not the way to do it. If you have never used this type of cutter, don't go and try to explain what you don't know. At least be a little proficient in it. Just my opinion.