I think initially, Elaphe AND in wheel motors are out at Aptera
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Without the in wheel motors it doesn't seem to be an Aptera .
In wheel motors, add a fourth wheel, and you have a traditional car. I am selling my Accelerator position!
@@adimchionyenadum2962and probably a better car too. no more getting around car safety standard and workaround rollover risk by insane front wheels spacing. the 3 wheel is more a proof of concept than a proper full featured car. wheels need to go in pairs 😁 except maybe solo wheels.
non leaning 3 wheelers have neither the advantages of motorcycles or cars.
I won't go off the deep end here, but I'm just a bit perplexed over this traditional drivetrain. I specifically remember Chris a couple years ago speaking about the design of the in wheel motor and that they decided to tackle the AWD first instead of FWD to avoid redoing the work for AWD later. While I applaud getting the vehicle out sooner by simplifying, I feel I've been led to believe they had the work done already for testing. I wonder how this may or may not effect the efficiency of the vehicle and that may still be fine, but I don't like the additional complexity of having a traditional drivetrain. The beauty of the Aptera is in its simplicity for me. I will continue to watch with hopeful engagement, but I'm beginning to wonder how ready they really are to deliver their specs.
You can be sure that the trolls are going to have a hay day with this.
I find this significant change to be seriously concerning at this late in the game. This was one of the key features of the car that they indicated was pretty baked in over a year ago. It brings up a number of questions and honestly pisses me off and makes me feel like I've been lied to as an accelerator investor.
Would be nice to hear from Sandy Munro, or has he been dropped lately as a design/manufacturing contributor.
I have made probably 30 comments about in wheel motors being a disaster! I've gone into details by my experience but won't this time. Instead you the reader of this comment, you do it! How? Go to a Harley shop and ask to contact a "Hard Tail" motorcycle rider. Pay him if you have to togive you a ride, Warning! Do not go off road. After about 20 minutes you will beg him to let you off. Why? No shocks absorbers make wheel mounted motors impossible as does riding Hard Tails. Finally Aptera Engineers are on the right design! In the meantime run from this losing investment!@kayakcrazy4883
Getting in wheel motors to function under automotive conditions is revolutionary. I was hoping it could happen. Obviously, Steve and Chris were not idealistically ignoring the risk of in wheel motor tech not being ready. They had a plan B and have reached a decision to move the Aptera production forward. Fortunately, their awareness allows Aptera to proceed and not be held hostage by a lagging system. It isn't great, but it is reality. There are automotive and motorcycle technologies that do not require in wheel motors. Let's see what they come up with before passing judgement.
No AWD means no Aptera for many of us especially to those that have to worry about driving in snow during the winter months.
Chris said, "And you know in-wheel motors for the long term strategy is still something that we're working hard to make a reality and SOMETHING THAT WE'LL NEED FOR OUR REAR WHEEL um so you know it's all part of the long term plan."
I 100% won't be buying an Aptera until the AWD problem is resolved.
The rear wheel could easily be powered like any other electric motorcycle using a swing arm
@@laggyx500 So Chris was wrong, they don't need it?
I feel that the front wheel drive, computer controlled vehicles of today are very good at handling winter snow conditions. It is, primarily, going to depend on the fore and aft weight distribution of the Aptera specifically, and dragging a rear wheel in its own track will have a different effect as well. I imagine the biggest set back will be that chain control requirements are a big factor in the "convenient" travel over highly controlled, snow impacted roads. But hey, this is an exercise in solar mobility, not necessarily focusing on rural 4 season superiority bar none.
@@laggyx500I thought of that possibility, maybe a separate motor and drive shaft or belt? To me it would be hard to believe an in wheel couldn't be used in the rear but we shall see...
For such a major design change, I would think this information would be announced officially instead of back-doored like this. What else is planned to change what we all thought was settled design. Going back to the drawing board and repeating all the testing they've already done seems to be a drastic step. Were they that clueless about the feasability of hub motors that they went this far before deciding for a major change? I don't know anything, yet, so I will have to wait for definitive clarification.
The change must have been planned long ago. They are just announcing it.
@@adimchionyenadum2962 An aside in a podcast is not an offician announcement. Do you have a link? I watched a livestream from Apter's website and they said the drive train was finalized and that there would be an announcement soon.
Feels like a bait and switch to me. Is it coincidence that this came out just after they got funding? push all the state if the art stuff and then put a more conventional car together. I for one an disappointed, what other changes are coming.
Sandy Munro told everyone about this in August of 2023 but of course no one wanted to believe him even though we are told at times his association with Aptera boosts its credentials
@@adimchionyenadum2962 please explain. May 2024 they were touring investors and youtubers around the factory and never mentioned this...In fact they were bragging about their in hub motor design..... so when did they "have this all planned"
Steve, the Launch Edition is an all wheel drive configuration. Will Aptera change this for all of the Accelerators? As an Accellerator, this concerns me greatly.
I'm not an accelerator, but I'm also concerned about this. I'm amazed that there aren't more accelerators weighing in, as that's what you all signed up for when becoming an accelerator.
I live in Utah, and plan to use my Aptera to go up the canyons to the ski resorts in the winter. There are often restrictions requiring 4wd or AWD. I definitely won't purchase until the AWD variant is available.
But here's hoping they have already thought about this and we're all panicking over nothing! 😄. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Me too. He did say they will need it for the rear wheel. Unless we are way off base there will be no AWD Launch Edition Aptera.
There is a good chance that I will order the 1000 range version now. It's really the one I wanted most and if they will come in AWD then that is probably what I'll buy. Assuming this news doesn't sink the company.
In my opinion the preorder retention may have just been cut in half.
I'm an "accelerator". I also had a reservation for the original vehicle in 2005, and got a spot for the Paradigm edition.
I'm perfectly happy with the direction the team is taking now.
I signed on as an accelerator to help the company to production, and to have an *opportunity* to get a vehicle "quickly". I'm interested in strategy not tactics. If true, this decision will have been made intelligently to balance needs of delivering a product whilst still delivering on the promise of efficiency. I trust the team on this more than keyboard quarterbacks.
@@mmalccrawford4860 I'm glad you have a good attitude about it.
@@mmalccrawford4860 I'm conflicted. On one hand I still believe in their vision and want them to succeed.
On the other they should have told people about this much sooner.
I can afford the loss in my investment but had I known this a month ago I wouldn't have invested.
Which leads me to think they knew how people would react but waited until the last minute due to investment money. How many people like me invested this month feeling confident and good about it and now feel shitty?
Like I said I am conflicted. I want to believe in Aptera and what they stand for and their vision. Now I'm feeling a bit betrayed.
Thankfully I was smart and only invested a little bit of money. I'm also still hoping an AWD drive version is ready to go by the time the 1,000 mile model is being produced. In-wheel motors or not the AWD is must for me.
Isn't a little late in the game to not have the drivetrain nailed down? So obviously the production configuration is NOT set in stone yet. From the previous announcements I thought this was done and they were ready for production. At this late stage this is very concerning.
It is too late in the game to change something as basic as the drive train. In wheel motors was a major inovative selling point. This is a very concerning late stage plan.
Exactly… late AND ambiguous ’plan’.
Why did they not make this clear earlier,about the IWM, this makes a big difference to many supporters. Kinda sneaky...
Aptera's comment from your video 2 weeks ago also relevant here for people freaking out "Elaphe remains a valued partner in our journey. Due to market constraints last year, we paused some custom engineering projects to explore off-the-shelf solutions that require less capital and offer a faster time to market, while retaining our efficiency ethos. We will have more to share on our production drivetrain soon."
Why do you pause the video to complain about a missing connector when Chris explains it directly after?
That still don't fully explain the wire to board, and the labor for installing them. Connector or not those are still connections. And how does installing those work? Why individual wires? How does replacing components work if something breaks?
Also they keep saying hand soldered connectors, but I believe even for through-hole connectors there are ways automate pick and place of those (if they come on a tray/tape & reel), and to reflow solder those. Or there's wave soldering too.
@@DennisLeeyeet Replacing components should be easier, if anything. I've had to repair a lot of wiring harnesses over the years, and connectors are always the bane of repair. If you have to replace the connector you have to source the right one. If you have to repair the connector, you have to source the right pin extractor, the right pins, and the right crimping tool for the pins. It's a pain. And connectors do fail sometimes. As someone who repairs harnesses, I was excited to see their approach. Each wire simply presses into individual connection points on the board. So much nicer from a repair perspective. If an individual wire is damaged, replace that wire and it simply connects directly to the board. Easy-peasy.
This setup also makes troubleshooting easier. Rather than trying to back-probe a connector, trying not to damage the pins or wires, this system can be easily tested. And with traditional connectors, heaven forbid you show up after someone a little heavy-handed has done some troubleshooting of the system and bent a few pins. Now you are chasing the original problem, plus an intermittent connection issue due to a few pins in a connector somewhere that are bent and no longer making good connection.
Honestly, other than a bit more labor during initial assembly, I love this setup. The harnesses are cheaper and lighter, it's potentially a more reliable setup, and it will make any troubleshooting and repair of the harness down the road much easier.
@@bigtb1717I agree.
It will be a miracle if they ever get this into production. I did invest in the company a while ago and remember it very being a very promising idea. I too even got friends to invest. By the look on his face I think its over and they will be bankrupt next year. Seems like the company is surviving off pure Hopeium and we all know where that ends. I give them props though for trying to build such a revolutionary vehicle but they should have followed the KISS rule keep it simple stupid. Not sure how much money was wasted on the solar aspect and the IWMs when the vehicle could have been done without them with considerable cost savings. At this point just sell the shell to me and I will finish it myself.
Agreed, maybe they will be just selling expensive solar panels for mobility.....
Very capable perspective. Unfortunately outranking Aptera isn't going to help you.
I knew the in wheel hub motors were gone when I saw the release of the electronic test bed a week ago or so ago. It had one output for one inverter = one motor.
I am kind of disappointed because I wanted the all-wheel-drive version….
Major Hub Motor Players:
Schaeffler AG (Germany)
Printed Motors Works (UK)
Nissan Motors Corporation (Japan)
e-Traction B.V. (Netherlands)
NTN Corporation (Japan)
ZIEHL-ABEGG (Germany)
Elaphe Ltd (Slovenia)
Protean Electric (US)
ECOmove GmbH (Germany)
I presume Aptera has talked with all of these?
And let’s keep some perspective. The original Tesla Roadster was launched with a transmission, which was totally unnecessary mostly because it was stuffed into fossil car.
Charge on!
@Rich1Rodriguez you saw something I didn't see. I too was really looking forward to an ultra efficient AWD solar powered vehicle, but as many here have stated, I support and believe in @ApteraMotors. I am waiting now for a week for the update on the drive system and am looking forward to hearing about the Elaphe interview from @apterasolar. As Aptera Ambassadors, Investors, Accelerators and Reservation Holders it is important that we can continue to share Aptera's vision for the future and understanding the drive train is certainly part of that vision.
@@NYCCEJI'm still going to support them. I still believe in their vision of solar mobility. However I won't buy an Aptera that isn't AWD and Chris said they NEED it for the rear wheel.
My plan now is to wait a little longer. Make sure the AWD is off the table. Once confirmed I'll switch my order to the 1000 mile version which is my preference anyway. If my turn in line comes up and still no AWD system is in place then my order will be cancelled.
Go to about 4:45 into the video if you missed it. "something that we'll NEED for our rear wheel."
@@NYCCEJ it’s all about efficiency
Steve, as most of the time, you captured it right there. IWM's will not be part of the LE and maybe more vehicles delivered after LE's. That's also our take. Our guess is a traditional E-AXLE more or less from the shelf of a "major trusted" manufacturer.
We're wondering what the consequences for the LE price, handling and efficiency will be . Quite some chances from what was promised during LE launch.
Want to know what ELAPHE CEO has to say? Watch our channel for the next 10 days. There will be an interview with him ...
Looking forward to the interview!
Have been waiting for this interview to drop since you first mentioned it. 😢 As an investor and an Accelerator, I am a bit concerned and really want to hear what @ApteraMotors have selected.
I have a question or 30 for Elaphe, but hopefully you will ask them? Lightyear, Lordstown, and Fisker all are done, the in-wheel motors manufacturer YASA was bought out by Mercedes Benz.
Was this a mutual parting.
A lot of things were promised at the beginning. It seems like a lot of them are slipping away: all wheel drive, motors in wheels, belly cooling… I wonder what we will be left with except car with a different body shape?
Takes a little shine off the package. I don't care about the woofers lol
@@apterasolar
Link your channel please!
Honestly, if they are able to engineer a traditional drivetrain into the Aptera at this late stage, that's incredibly impressive. Makes me think they always had that planned as a backup option
I was thinking the same. Or they got lucky and it just happened to fit in the space under the hood.
They said they had it nailed down for a while which means it would have to have been installed on beta, right?
Yeah, I wonder if they had plan B all the time.
Unsprung mass problem is not easy to solve. Last year, Hyundai had shown uni-wheel design concept as not-so-in-wheel-drivetrain, but I haven't seen them other than the CGI concept.
Honestly if they have 2 independent front motors they would still have the potential for good performance and this avoids the cooling and high voltage lines into the wheel pants, reduces unsprung mass and replaces it with a single shrouded half-shaft this can still be very good. My concern is they will either use a single motor (losing their amazing torque vectoring and traction control) or put an underpowered drivetrain justified by the efficiency. If they have 2 powerful front motors and can get back to ~3.5-4 second 0-60 while reducing uncertainty from hub motors then the loss of AWD isnt terrible. It isnt the vehicle we were sold but Aptera has a lot of critical suppliers and the fact they could adapt and potentially release something which is comparable in performance is impressive flexibility. Some have speculated tesla motors but I really don't see it as likely; I suspect they will source the powertrain from Chery since they are already a supplier and position themselves as a seller of EV powertrain components.
Ditto for me. It was always a bit puzzling for me when they said from the start that there would be no "Frunk". (Could it be that they were always reserving the front space for this "Plan B". Personally, I'm relieved. See my comment above.)
First, I can't imagine Aptera without in-wheel motors.
Second, I can imagine the 'improvements' made to the motors for Aptera - we were told of a winding methodology over a year ago that dropped power and upped efficiency in the Elaphe design.
I'm guessing the tools used for the alternative winding for efficiency is something that is not in the cards for across the board inclusion into the product catalog of Elaphe. In essence, this is the "Aptera Motor" ... and it would be unique.
In-wheel motors are critical to the delivery of the accelerator models that are all-wheel drive and I don't see a four-wheeler option.
That said, I guess I could see an in-board motor option for the front wheels but the differences in motor characteristics between an in-board motor and in wheel, particularly in terms of RPM capability, suggests incompatibility unless you govern the speed of the in-board motor. The problem with this is that with this configuration, the two-wheeled Aptera, because you could remove the governor on this motor, would be potentially significantly faster than the three-wheeled version.
I just don't buy that they would opt for an inboard configuration based on what? A Fiat 600E?
What I think is more likely is that the original contract with Elaphe called for Aptera purchasing 20,000 motors from them and then, Aptera would be qualified to manufacture their own motors.
As previously known, Aptera is not buying an off-the-shelf M-700 motor, but rather seeks a more efficient winding for a derivative motor that I get the idea Elaphe is balking at producing a limited run of 20,000 custom wound motors using Aptera's motor IP along with theirs.
And Aptera has no use for 20,000 M-700 motors.
I will point out it is always a good idea for an automotive company to own its 'motor.'
I will say, one of the things you have to appreciate about Aptera is their showmanship. They're going to be going out to big financings including debt as well as equity financing. They need a big announcement.
Given an option between a 'fait-accompli' announcement saying they're using Fiat's or MB's or even Chery's in-board motor - which will at least involve concerns about such a dramatic change in vehicle architecture - or they're buying a factory to produce Aptera-branded motors that are a derivative of the Elaphe motor but engineered to a higher level of efficiency, and manufactured exclusively for Aptera. I think the latter's obvious evolution seems most consistent with the past and therefore the easiest sell.
Going to an inboard motor for early production would seem more stop-gap and therefore a harder sale to investors.
I mean, they've had five years to get this critical aspect of the supply chain solved and dropping the plan that has been in place for that entire period unless it is some super-sweet deal, seems just odd. whereas announcing a new Aptera subsidiary that makes the advanced in-wheel motors using Aptera developed IP sounds sweet to my ears. .
Setting up a whole ne motor factory, nah, not gonna happen.
They have difficulty finding investors already
@@shrimptopian3392 You can 'make' an electric motor in a small shop. Manufacturing these motors is far from rocket science and companies around the world have been making electric motors since the turn of the last century and if they're maintained, they usually still work. You are also forgetting the 'partnership' with the Italian government Aptera-Italia. Maybe they'll be the one to build the "Unique" to Aptera Motor.
No
@@shrimptopian3392 It is all speculation and only time will tell :)
I just don't understand how they can switch from in wheel to drive axle without a major redesign. And a major redesign is really expensive if they've already tooled the components to press the body pieces.
They probably designed it for both types of drivetrains. The vehicle will probably end up being more reliable with the traditional EV drivetrain.
See the June update and the new frame design, recently finished and released for PI parts.
On the bright side, no unsprung weight on the drive axle ends, as opposed to the heavy Elaphe hubs.
They also emphasized that ALL design work and parts for the drivetrain are sources and finalized. They contracted a company a while pack to adjust their suspension design.. I can't help but think that was done to adjust for inboard motors.
@@FriedChairsminute frame 11:50 Chris's states the new in wheel motor will be in the first PI vehicles!
Note that an onboard motor doesn’t necessarily require a transaxle. You could very well have dual onboard motors without the efficiency loss of a transaxle, differential, etc. In fact, the light weight of the Aptera might be what enables that more efficient onboard configuration. I wouldn’t worry too much.
That would definitely be preferable since it would allow for strong traction control in winter. Hopefully the iwm third motor could even be retrofit in the future. I suspect if they commit to this path the front will stay traditional (ideally induction) motors and the rear wheel could add efficiency when cruising.
I'm not worried about the shift from in wheel motors. Clearly they had no choice but to do this, probably because Elaphe had the rug yanked out from them by Lordstown. I trust Aptera to keep working to fulfill their dream, just like they've been toiling for years now. Our keyboard angst cannot hold a candle to that.
Are you ok with no AWD?
@Fairburne69 I'm not one of the early reservation holders who is rightly expecting awd. None of us know how they're working around the hub motor problem, and perhaps they'll still have awd. I can manage just fine without awd; I have all my life. Aptera will be at least 2/3 wd, which is better than 2/4wd anyway.
It could be just a cost concern. The in wheel motors might be way more expensive than a motor with half shafts and CV joints.
@@Fairburne69 I don't see why this would mean no AWD. There are plenty of motorcycles out there with either shaft, belt or even chain drive for the rear wheel.
@@rolandrauenhorst2002 Because Steve said they needed an in-wheel motor for the rear wheel.
On Elaphe's web site. they do not list Aptera as a partner any more. Just some pictures of an Aptera here and there. but no mention any where of Aptera .
Can you point me where on their website shows partners??
Their "portfolio" page is under Testing Center section. It has 4 companies listed but 2 of them are already defunct.
I'm wondering if they ever achieved manufacturing of hub motors in any meaningful scale.
The board to wire components have a metal hook that holds the tinned wire mechanically surprisingly well. I've used these. You just push the wire in. The tool is only used to release them if you need to swap the board. It's typically just a metal pin like a sim card tool. No crimping required and the socket is pick and place soldered by machine. These look a bit different than what I've used but I'm guessing the concept is the same.
Adding to that; the circuit board could comes from the source with the color coded wires installed on the board end and deutsch connectors on the “harness” end. You can actually see a connector on the b-pillar sequence. That’s what I’d do, anyway.
While a lot of this is based on what and/or may not have been said, at this point a lot of this is pure conjecture. While we do want the AWD, disappointment abound if there isn't AWD on the LE, etc. Let us remember that they have been transparent as possible. The 'news' when they have it, for the most part is always a positive. Remember when they were looking for capital, etc. The announcement was done with excitement. When Audra was talking and got cut short, she was excited not in a low mode. This could all be coming together with an announcement of great things to come, one thing that comes to mind as the Accelerator program comes to a close. Hopefully an IPO will happen quickly AND it all falls together with US Capital providing funds for 'what is yet to be discovered'. That said, just maybe as others have said, maybe they are bringing motor production in house and we have spent negative energy or emotions needlessly. Add to all that, they didn't go to Abu Dhabi for no reason. That may possibly be a factor with the IWM's as well and funding for them. The AWD for us is almost a necessity to get up our driveway in any sort of weather, let alone in inclement weather. If it were for a FWD vehicle being in the LE, we likely would wait until AWD is available or sell the LE as we currently sit with production of it being completed within the first week of production. Time will tell, we have our trust in Aptera that what is to come this next week in their announcement is for the betterment of the company and us receiving our vehicles sooner.
I understand some people's disappointment about the first Apteras not having in-wheel motors. IWM are an excellent idea, but so was the integrated belly cooling. It just turns out that it isn't feasible to put IWM into the initial production cars. If the leadership insisted on having IWM, I'm guessing that it would have delayed production even longer. Please consider the fact that a gearbox and associated transmission parts between the motor and wheel will result in about 3-4% efficiency loss. The single most important contribution to efficiency is the aerodynamic body; I'm sure it accounts for something like half of the efficiency gain over a standard EV. If the range is 400 miles with IWM, there would be a loss of 12-16 miles due to gearbox losses etc. It would be great to have IWM, but overall this feature would just not be nearly as significant as aerodynamics and weight. I do hope everyone keeps their reservations.
Won't the vehicle be heavier with a drive train? Maybe not since the motors themselves may have been pretty heavy. I am a bit disappointed that we aren't getting IWM, TBH. But I guess I'll have to get another one down the line.
Since the battery is 44-47kwh or something, I think they will still be able to get EPA 400 miles fine.
It may be the case that with electric motors, there may not be a need for a transmission. E-motors have strong low-rpm torque and yet can easily spin at very high RPM.
This change, with the decrease in efficiency, would seem to make achieving 40 miles of solar per day more challenging. And no more 4 second 0-60?
@@deanstewart2 A single 120-160hp motor from Chery for example would be under 4 seconds 0-60. Efficiency is mostly determined by air resistance so I expect maybe 2-4% reduction.
I can understand the issues… things happen. i was originally disappointed that the PI builds will not have the belly cooling and now AWD and hub motors are gone. These are MAJOR changes to what were sold to accelerators. It will still be a talking piece and help promote the brand, but not the car that I would want to keep, once the other features come back… and by then we will be in the back of the line. Hopefully when i drive it around for months at a time, I will get enough referrals for a free one. This also better reduce the initial price…because of less expensive parts AND features not being provided.
Just about a year ago, customers had to convince Aptera to allow fast charging on the Tesla charging network, but they did change their mind. I had plans to take it on long trips. And they thought it was fine for local transportation, so disappointing......
I am surprised about a change of something as important as the propulsion system so close to production. It seems as they have had this in the works for some time. There has been no indication in the past that there was any trouble designing the Elaphe motors to propel the Aptera. As a minimum the change will require changes to the shocks and springs rates to account for the reduction in unsprung weight. It might also entail some suspension changes to accommodate the half shafts and CV joints. I wonder if the major purpose of the Beta vehicle testing in Modena was to validate the new arrangement. If not I don't see where that could have been done. Up to now I thought Steve has been pretty transparent with us investors. The lack of information is a disappointment. How can they make such a change and be ready for production soon?
As to who they are using my speculation is they are going with Bosch for the motor and drive train. Being a German company noted for their electric motors and not far from Italy they would not arouse much suspicion if their engineers were testing their system on the Beta vehicle.
Re "so close to production". I am no longer confident production is "close". A few more prototypes, sure, and then the LEs will be planned. Again.
@johntrotter8678 I am worried about the trolls. How can we self-appointed Aptera apologetics face them now?
I suspect they started working on this contingency almost a year ago. Sandy spilled the beans in his podcast with Pete Gruber 10 months ago. Perhaps they only commited to this path a few months ago - impossible to tell. Actually a really good thing aptera is ensuring they have a path forward if any of their suppliers can't deliver or if other unforseen issues come up. They could be stuck in the sunk cost fallacy and are instead trying to get something to market. Looking forward to more details but its clear they cant spill too much yet due to vendor nda's and in progress negotiations.
I suspect this is fallout from skin cooling failing and budget limitations. This could well sink any hopes with Capital Global. If so, it's over.
@@adimchionyenadum2962 Why do you call someone concerned about Aptera's integrity and concerned about possible investor experience a troll?
We've seen JC before... She was in an Aptera update video in 2022. If recall correctly she was demonstrating the test bench for the electrical system. That's when she showed us the "knock knock feature for the first time... GO JC!!!
Oh you're right!
That's right!!! Thanks for pointing this out!
Later in the video during the In and Out food run, Chris M. is heard trying to reassure a viewer by saying that the motor is proven already in hundreds of thousands of vehicles.
@@ronaldclarkson1146 Do you think that Chris was referring to a Tesla motor (or a Tesla style motor) with its advanced designs and efficiency?
@@a5-30-31ctsthe Lucid motor would be better! Smaller in size and more efficient! Both motors were compared by Sandy Munro and the Lucid motor wins hands down.
I want my scale model!!
Me too. I don't care how much they charge for it. It might be the only Aptera I ever own.
As long as they give a good explanation as to WHY IWM is out. This feels like it came out of left field. Every prototype up to now has used IWM.
I am a reservation holder of the LE since Feb 2022 and small investor. I can understand the disappointment in many who've hoped for in-wheel motors and AWD (that includes me - I live in Canada (Subaru country) where it snows and would have found AWD useful).
However even though it looks like AWD and in-wheel motors may not be included in the initial models, I have to say I am a bit relieved because of the following reasons:
a) Free-wheeling efficiency: There is now the ability to allow all wheels to coast without the magnetic drag of the electric motors. On the highway, this ability to free-wheel can significantly increase long-distance range especially on the highway (where the Aptera can really showcase its efficiency).
b) Reduced un-sprung weight and overall weight: We all know of the issues of un-sprung weight on ride quality, handling, and stress on suspension and shocks, and tire/rim choices.
c) Lower overall weight and cost: With paring down from 3 motors to 1 motor, there are both significant weight, complexity, and cost savings.
e) Protection: The single motor and its high voltage lines are now protected within the nose area away from the elements. Its high-voltage lines can now be fully shielded and protected and encapsulated within the front compartment and are not subjected to constant flexing. With the in-wheel approach, both the motor and its high voltage lines are constantly being flexed and shocked and have to be protected from the wind, rain, mud and high-speed impacts of pebbles, rocks, dirt/debris and mud. A high speed crash of a front wheel will expose high voltage lines.
f) Maintenance: Any motor maintenance of an in-wheel motor work must begin with an arduous/costly cleanup step and inspection of power lines. Instead of having 3 motors to maintain (motors and power and cooling lines that are subjected to both shock, flexing and elements), there is now only one motor that's fixed and protected and shielded from elements. It's non-flexing power lines can now be fully protected and shielded.
The traditional central motor approach is already the established auto industry approach and takes advantages of current auto industry services. Current braking system, drive train components, suspension and control arm designs are already designed and optimized to operate within the harsh environment of an automobile under carriage.
Brake/Alignment/wheel/drivetrain Auto maintenance shops are already established. But they are not equipped nor ready to have to deal with a 400-800 volt motor staring at them in the face. They will refuse to do the simple alignment, brake service, control arm, or tire/wheel replacement/service.
I'm staying: If the LE comes without the in-wheel motors and only with FWD, I am welcoming this change and keeping my reservation. I do hope, however that there is a reduction in cost of the LE (at least removing the $2,500 extra charge for the 3rd rear wheel motor).
This is a very thoughtful list of reasons we should not be insisting on IWM - thank you!
That's a lot of silver lining! Delays in production would be more problematic at this stage than any compromise in design changes.
Well said. I agree with all of your points. Wheel motors operating in salt and sand slop of winter sounded like a real long term risk. Axles, cv joints and disk brakes have proven themselves in harsh environments for years.
If they can give me the 3.5 sec 0-60 performance with 2 wheel drive, I'm ok with the change. Should be easy with high horsepower/ torque motors from tesla and others. Probably only need 300 hp with apteras light weight.
Well stated.
@@danquicker1642 We'll see but I expect not 3.5 or 4 sec anymore but more like 5. Hope I'm wrong. Wouldn't be terrible but I'd certainly prefer the original awd in New England.
I think my investment in Aptera is not worth much if anything at all. No regrets, it sounded good a few years ago, but if Tesla has a $25 k car in a year or two I can't see Aptera having a market. I have a reservation but it is unlikely I will buy it if it ever comes into production. Nice try, but I think my investment is lost. At some point production matters. I love the idea, I invested in it, but I am a realist.
Tesla has been promising a sub-35k car since about 2016. It'll never happen.
I 100% agree and I looked at my wife when he said that and said there is a big big change coming and personally I am really bummed it won’t have in-wheel motors in the front BUT every time they make a change it’s for the best so just go with it!
"for the best." That’s a very positive spin… DT change, cooling solution are like most changes - a tradeoff, most often between best design solution & best/quickest to build.
I think the safest course of action is to just reserve judgement until we see what they have cooking. I am really glad I ordered the 1k mile variant, hopefully that will be getting made so much farther out that they will get all these growing pains sorted out by the time mine ships. I'm absolutely commited to hub motors, maximum drivetrain efficiency is important to me.
I ordered 600 mi. Model for similar reason and tho entitled to a 400 ml. LE, now even less likely to opt for one.
I reject your sound reasoning and substitute my own. :p
when just over a month ago(May 2024) they had nothing to talk about and now July 1 they half assed admit they can't do it?
that's not transparent or honest at all...why would you give this company, which has already failed once, that much faith...when they haven't given a single reason to deserve it?
@@skidooboy8977 NDAs and partnership agreements are the reason given for secrecy. Guessing you’re not buying it? Me neither 😀 Much could’ve been said without naming companies nor disclosing compromising details, instead "stay tuned". Me thinks bad judgement, NOT bad intentions.
@@gr8dvd not being honest about bad judgment...is Bad intent.
I knew the Elaphe partnership was dead. They talked about it all the time a few years ago but in the last two years, nothing. This surprises me zero percent. It doesn’t bother me, per se, but it is a point of unusually non-transparency for Aptera. Looking forward to hearing about their near term solution. But all wheel drive customers will be waiting to hear the long term return to hub motors. I don’t see another way to efficiently power the back wheel.
Whatever the new, presumably not Elaphe, possible not in-wheel motors, is, both Chris’ seem confident in the design they have locked down, and confident that we’ll like it. Chris A. mentioned the design had to be both mass producible and efficient, so I’m guessing there won’t be a big hit on efficiency. I suspect whatever disappointments this might cause will be accompanied by surprises of the good kind.
Considering the design is already locked down, I trust Aptera’s judgement that this is better than the risks of proceeding with the originally conceived approach.
I’d go so far as to speculate that they were developing two drivetrains, in parallel, all along. The “switch” we’re speculating on may be nothing more than Aptera finalizing selection of a less risky option that has been under development all along.
I remember a year ago or more when they said there wouldn't be a frunk (trunk in front). They said it had to do with wiring, but maybe it was also for drivetrain contingency.
@@mikeyd6031I just always took it for limiting risk- anything that has to open and close is more tricky to engineer.
I guess this means that the initial vehicles will not be three wheel drive.
Thanks for deep dive into this.
I am still hoping for in wheel Motors and 3 wheel drive.
Hoping that if Elephae Motors are not to be used that another In wheel motor producer is used.
I am waiting to wait for in wheel Motors eleven though I am currently sitting #340 on the Leaderboard.
21:33 If the Launch Edition has a drivetrain, not in wheel motors, it kills the collector value. Right to repair give an owner ability to put in wheel motors? How can it be 3 wheel drive? I have a lot of patience, but how much longer will this delay the process?
Steve, if anyone can get clarity from Aptera it is you Slick!
I am not pleased with this and hopefully it will not delay it any further. My desire to get out to Carlsbad to pick mine up is not diminished, but at 75+ years old, the clock is ticking louder now, time keeps on slipping into the future!
Obviously something is changed, sadly Aptera doesn't have the wherewithal to buy out Elaphe, but in my head vertical integration makes wonderful sense. Bringing the motors in house, will result in better control, and higher profit later.
Elaphe might need Aptera even more than we think, as Lordstown and Light-year are no longer, along with Fiscker
Make "Slick" stick! Make "Slick" stick!
I mean collectors value would still buy higher for being the first units and being unique.
Yes they would. In fact, the different drive train might well make them MORE of a collectors item...@@Skylancer727
The car is designed for in hub motors. How could the add a front motor with drove shafts and u-joints... It would not be the same car with the same efficiencies.
Steve, Chris explained why they are going to on-board wire connectors. It’s for reliability. Two additional points, first he states that the tinned wires are pushed into the connector. This would not require a tool for assembly, but I suspect will require a tool for disassembly. Second, as JC explained, the on-board wire connectors are surface-mount (SMT) components that are placed on the circuit board by the automated pick and place machine and soldered to the circuit board like any other component. This actually eliminates one manual assembly step. If they used a connector, it would require two manual manufacturing steps. One to manually push the wires into the connector and second to manually push connector together. The design they are using eliminates the manual process of pushing the connectors together and it eliminates the connectors so it should be a more efficient, less costly and more reliable design. However, it does move the step of pushing in the wires from the wire harness assembly process to the vehicle assembly process.
I dunno. Go to Aptera Motors right now.and order an LE. They are still selling it as AWD.
The inwheel motor is indeed the highest risk component (unsprung weight, wear, cooling) in the Aptera design. A small onboard motor would have less power compared with two inwheel motors, and there is no torque vectoring (??) I assume, and could have lower efficiency (??). Typical engineering job to evaluate the pros and contras, 100% confident Aptera company makes the best decision.
If they are not going to have in-wheel motors, how are the going to fulfill my order for a 3-wheel drive? I sure hope you are wrong about this.
I honestly don't think the LE's will be 3 Wheel drive. I'm also very disappointed and won't buy one without it.
In-Wheel motors are part of their long term goal. I wouldn't consider the LE's a long term goal. I could be wrong.
2 in this video Chris said the "need" in wheel motors for the rear wheel.
1+1=2
2 = No AWD (3WD)
@Fairburne69 without the three-wheel drive I'm not going to buy it either. And I think that would get them accusations of bait and switch. So I continue to hope you are wrong.
@@markfinley3703 I hope I'm wrong too. I'm also willing to wait for a 600 or 1000 mile version of the vehicle. Which increases the odds of a 3WD being available.
With winter months being so short a 1000 mile range Aptera would mean a lot more time before needing to charge. A few hundred pounds of extra weight on snow tires would probably help with traction in the snow also.
@@Fairburne69There wont be a 600 or 1000 mile variant if the LE fails to sell (and that looks like what is going to happen with this new news).
@@g00gl3r I think it will still sell. I've seen Canadians who will still buy it even though they live far north. For those living in warmer climates I don't think they will care as much.
Having said all that I am worried that you might be correct.
My biggest problem is that they have been keeping this information quiet. This isn't a last minute change they just decided to do.
As soon as they decides to ditch the in-wheel motors and AWD they should have told the investors about it and what the plan is going forward but they didn't.
I can only assume they didn't say anything because they were worried and rightly so that money for the crowd funding campaign would dry up.
Keeping it a secret is a bad idea when you claim to be transparent.
I have not suspected a shift from in-wheel motors until this video, but upon this additional review of what Chris A. has said, it surely looks that way. I feel it's dangerous to speculate about it also, so I am falling back on the fact there I circumstances we do not know about yet, and that Aptera has been wise and careful in their decision making all along. The word from Aptera is that an announcement is coming soon, (by the end of next week, I believe) so we don't have long until the changes will be known. It does no good to get wound up about what I don't know, so I wait patiently.
For better performance in handling and power inboard motors are better. Hub motors are mostly looked down on in most all applications not just cars. Biggest advantage to hub motors is space and maybe stronger braking from regen. Strongest disadvantage with inboard is the axle with CV joint has efficiency lost, but there is gearing ratio that a hub motor does not have that is so much better that a hub motor will never have. Gearing ratio can optimize not just performance but efficiency too. Great example are bicycles. Low end ebikes uses hub motors while performance ebikes use mid motors. You'll find that hub motors in bicycles need to be really big with more watts of power compared to mid drive motors that all perform better while using a smaller watts power motor. At a steady state the direct drive like a hub motor is great for machinenery and tools where the rpm used is constant but for a vehicle not so cause vehicles are always changing speeds. Because of that constant change in speeds the direct drive hub motor is not efficient. If it really is inboard motor I'm glad, back when they first said they wanted to go hub motors I was a little disappointed, I prefer in board motor even with the disadvantage of CV joint efficiency lost, it has all the other advantages on its side while hub motors have too many disadvantages.
But it could be that they are gonna use a hybrid drive incorporating both inboard for the front wheels and hub for the rear.
This is a very different take than the impression given by Aptera (& others) previously that the IWMs/hub motors were the superior solution. Regardless, any guess as to effort/rework (mechanics & electronics) to drop IWMs in favor of inboard motors? Someone speculated the lack of a front trunk was deliberate should they opt to forgo IWMs, for initial production (or beyond). Not being an engineer I will be rereading your detailed post in hopes of more fully comprehending.
BTW any relation to LeoNarDo? 😀
Their are pros and cons to iwm but for the rear motor it really does make sense. Hopefully they can sort out sourcing and ideally eventually a retrofit option and have the best of both concepts with a hybrid of induction front motors (ideally 2 for torque vectoring) and iwm rear.
The "unsprung weight" argument may be a moot point right now. If they can achieve what they need with more traditional driveshafts it might actually be better, dunno??? They'll definitely need a hub motor for the rear wheel though.
Fun watching J.C. She was great in her understandable explanations.
Although there seems to be informed opinion/consensus that the wheel motors are off the table for now, I'll wait for the announcement.
If it is true and they have at least a front wheel drive implementation that can still achieve the 100 wH/mile or better efficiency and has adequate electronic traction control, I can live with it.
The removing of IWM actually pisses me off. That fact that things that critical are being changed this late in the game cause me to regret investing. And also makes me feel less certain about making a purchase. Dude. I convinced friends to invest in this company. Wtf..
Ditto
Apparently you’re in the minority… as am I. Not only late to disclose, as AGGRESSIVELY marketing to invest b4 CF closes (tomorrow), but uncharacteristically vague in what they are actually proposing… not to mention the veil of secrecy re: US-Capital deal.
I think they’ll be successful EVENTUALLY but the sudden changes and disingenuous statements suggest delays that will cost them as others innovate too.
I guess I just don't see the in-wheel motors as being a critical aspect of the car. To me it's the efficiency that's important, as well as the overall looks. If they can achieve anywhere near the efficiency that they have claimed with this alternate drivetrain then I honestly don't care. If they switch to in-wheel motors is later I honestly don't care. In wheel motors are an interesting tidbit to me, but just not that important. Edited because voice to text
@@GoClimbARockEh As a non-engineer, my preference for IWMs is based on Aptera touting their advantages for YEARS, and also now saying it’s the future.(as in better). Must be some tradeoff but, hate to say, I’ll wait to see validation data and no longer trust unsubstantiated company statements. BTW re: looks, all about aerodynamics and NOT broad market appeal. Ppl who appreciate the aerodynamic excellence will either like it or tolerate it but again no mainstream market appeal from my (admittedly) small sample.
Well, they were not making the motors. My guess is Elaphe is having problems. From an investor standpoint I would prefer they make a change if a vendor cannot meet the highest standards. Lordstown also tried Elaphe.
What's going on? This is first time I heard any change to the motors. Are they saying the motors for the Aptera are not going to be in the wheels. If that's the case, won't they need to change the body for more room to incorporate the engines into the body.?
Unless they knew that when the molds were being made and the incorporation of the metal frame was included. And they said nothing while people were investing as to not stop the flow of cash coming in.
@@SteveBueche1027 A few $M recently and, tho we know it’s high risk, some are straining to invest (reading the comments).
Ok, question: how do the direct wire to board connectors play into right-to-repair? If I have a failed board, can I easily replace it, or is it beyond the scope of most of us? Can a board be unpluged from the wires and a new one just plugged back in, especially considering the board and connectors will be encapsulated in goo?
Very curious what the drive train is going to look like.
Should I wait for Aptera 2.0 (or is it 3.0) instead of my current LE?
- In-wheel motors
- AWD vs FWD
- Belly cooling vs radiator and fans
- Efficient HVAC heating (heat pump)
- ADAS (Comma AI)
- Efficient inverters (SiC)
- Off-road
- Color choice
- Interior choice
Why does this sound like an Osborne moment?
I am out. No way a traditional drivetrain. Putting up my Accelerator position for sale.
Many pros and cons with traditional drivetrain with crash safety, reliability, and part replacement cost. Could decrease insurance rates and increase overall quality of the PI builds. At least for now I wish Aptera would offer like a hub motor version (AWD) and a traditional drivetrain (2WD). Make one like ‘sport’ and one like ‘base’, respectively.
Guessing they would if they could but apparently their IWMs are not "ready for prime-time".
Options = cost and complexity. They will ship the best single configuration they can while trying to make it scalable for now. Over time perhaps.
I live in the Pacific NW and really wanted AWD. I drive over mountain passes during the winter and it's a must. Very bummed to hear the early version will only be FWD.
I'm in Oregon and I may end up back in New England. I have concerns as well but the guesses on the drive train is all speculation right now. I guess we will find out soon.
@@garywozniak7742Chris did say they NEED in-wheel motors for the rear wheel. I'm 90% confident the LE's will not be AWD. No AWD for me on the Aptera is a deal breaker. Until this problem is solved I won't buy one. Hopefully it's a solvable problem.
There goes my AWD Aptera...
I am mildly disappointed about the in hub motors not being released on the first production units, but I certainly understand. I wonder what the efficiency penalty is going to be.
Probably around 8-10%
If this indeed means a conventional front wheel drive I am very disappointed. I hate FWD because of the loss of traction and the torque steer. I have been very eager to get this car, but I may have to wait until I can get 3 in-wheel motors.
I don't believe they are switching away from in wheel motors.... rather they are switching to a different manufacturer of in wheel motors... time will tell
They did say that they have the motor supplier sourced. Whatever that means.
I believe they said that the new drivetrain does not include RWD. If they were retaining in-wheel motors, it seems like AWD would still be an option.
Well than the production models can't be all wheel drive because the rear wheel must be in wheel drive as I understand .
Hopefully by the time they get to their 600 mile units they’ll have this worked out
Unfortunately, there will never be a 600 mile range option.
@@bad50 fortunately, you're wrong about that
I'm hoping either the 600 mile or even the 1000 miles version will launch with AWD. If not my dream of owning an Aptera is gone. Time will tell and I'm still hopeful but this was bad bad news for people like me.
@@GoClimbARockEh friendly $100 bet? By the end of 2026?
@@bad50 probably not until 2027
Belly cooling gone. In wheel motors gone. Will have power steering.
😂
Where are the frames? I see CPC parts. Seems like there should be PI frames by now? Probably ordering new frames to accept the new drive train........
18:09 I think we saw JC in a video a while back where they were showcasing a low-voltage test-bed. I haven't checked and it's been a while, but I think it was JC.
Someone else reported same from 2022, including a mention of knock-knock release.
I can hear aussieman now.... he's gonna have a field day on his youtube channel with this IWM change. He has a thing for AOC/Steve and Aptera the company. He noted spelling SUNA backwards is comical.
Don't feed that troll
@@jamesengland7461why not? if you can't laugh at yourself.....
I asked about Elaphe in the 'Issues of Concern' area of the website community. Someone there said that they will be released from their NDA next week. They said they will be able to say more about it then. I guess they could fit a motor or 2 motors in the front space with half shafts. If it's only one motor, I think it would lose torque vectoring. I also heard that they might use a company in Denver for the drive train. That might have been just speculation.
Toque vectoring is overrated and was overhyped by Aptera all along.
@@bob15479 It would help in snow and ice.
After following the breadcrumbs with a little more intensity, I now believe the new powertrain will be from the BYD Yuan UP (175hp/215 lbs-ft motor). Seems like it would be BYD, since Tesla and BYD are pretty much the only ones selling EVs in the millions and so far Tesla doesn't seem like they would be the one.
That was my impression as well when they were talking about it in the drivethru line. Elaphe out despite all the R&D of custom motor, Protean technology in? I hope it has high bioavailability!
🤦♂
Maybe a Single (Central motor at Front- TESLA?), and Elaphe (or Other) at rear for starters? Lower Unsprung Weight in Front Drive, and Possible More Steering Lock/Smaller Turning Circle. Less Hoses and Cables through the Front Suspension, with possible Aero gain for Smaller Struts? Copper Cables work harden and Break! Cable runs and insulation are Heavy, so a MUCH Shorter run Lightens and Makes more reliable. As a Maintenance Engineer for Container Cranes, the Connectors were a Major Source (>50%, every one of 26 Years) of Downtime.
Maybe a Single Rear Motor RWD. This would eliminate the axels, joints, boots, etc.
I'm out as a buyer if they don't have in hub motors
A person I convinced to buy an Aptera and who invested to receive an LE edition says he will wait to take delivery until they can deliver AWD. Aptera might be facing the same level of outrage and rebellion that occurred over the fast-charging issue.
Their design is adaptable to what parts they have available, which is very good. And be realistic, it wasn’t like I was going to get one the first 40,000 vehicles anyways. I’m happy to sit back and let them work out the kinks and update their parts.
In my opinion if Aptera has known that they will need to make a major drivetrain change for more than the last month, and still accepted investments without providing that information then that is fraud. I would hope that they are smarter than that and the LE will indeed have both belly cooling and in wheel motors since that is what they have been selling to investors for years now. And I do not care if the belly pan cooling has been off the table for awhile now, it was still used as a marketing pitch that drew in tens of thousands in $
I predicted court cases, i might be right
/s sounds like pure transparency......personally, I don't care an iota if they change up the drivetrain as long as it gets into production a.s.a.p.
The late game switch away from Elaphe IWD to a drive train is disturbing. I want a detailed explanation as to why. Did Elaphe jack the price up ? Can Elaphe meet your production demands ? Is there an engineering concern with the Elaphe motors ? Will the switch to a traditional drive train improve efficiency or performance ? Also, using this forum to announce a major design change by inference of the moderator is very used car salesman like. Not good...
Aptera owes their investors a serious and detailed explanation.
Agree 100%… maybe this answers my question as to why no angel investor for what appears to be great worthy project, great team… just really evasive when it really counts.
Changing from in-wheel motors to an in-board motor will cause changes to the ABS and traction control hardware and software.
It's way to late to be changing the drive chain. All that suspension testing and design, completely invalidated. The massive steel moulds for their body in carbon that took months to be made, that wasn't design to house motors.
You're making a lot of assumptions here. I doubt this change in drivetrain is a new decision, we're just hearing it from them now for the first time
Yeah, it's an absurd speculation from the AOC youtube channel.
Go look under the hood, and if you're nimble enough, under the instrument panel of your car. Massive, messy masses of wiring. This looks very delicate, but also very simple by comparison. The overall labor involved may be much less and the wiring harness will be much lighter and cheaper.
Also means that the 3-wheel drive comes only when the in-wheel motor is available (which is only a long-term thing).
Which will piss off A LOT of people that spent 10k to get an early AWD car. Now they can't.
@@JuiceBoxScott I doubt it. Those lots of people will simply take the hit and say "thank you sir may I have another".
@@JuiceBoxScott Aptera won't care since they already got their money via false promises and advertising.
@@JuiceBoxScottif it's that big of a deal to someone they can wait until that feature is ready. We've waited this long. What's another year?
My plan is to keep my preorder. Probably change it to the 600 or 1000 mile variant and hope the problem is solved by the time they start making them. If not I'll have to cancel my preorder.
It is what it is. My biggest problem is that they knew this and waited this long to say something. So much for transparency. I don't know if I would have invested a month ago had I known this information. Thankfully I didn't invest very much. But for those that did? They have the right to be disappointed and/or angry.
In-wheel motors are not preferable from an unsprung weight point of view. If the motor is inboard it'll be cheaper to manufacture and probably handle better.
It was so good to see the positive energy within the team. They all want to make this thing happen. The marketing girl is the free spirit of them. Incredible people skills
Living in Wi I am hoping for AWD. Is it a deal breaker? No. Plenty of us snow belters make it with FWD only. Are the IWM a deal breaker for me? No. If Aptera doesn’t feel the reliability is up to snuff or supply is an issue then go with something tried and tested. The technology of the IWM matches the technological advances of the rest of the vehicle true, but not a deal breaker for me. Later on maybe I trade my launch edition vehicle for an AWD with IWM. As always, thanks for all that you do Steve.
I'm in WI as well and am a bit disappointed by this news. I still want it but just disappointed it won't be more cutting edge with the IWM.
I'm very disappointed. I do drive a front wheel vehicle in the snow and hate it. I was already concerned about a light weight 3-wheel vehicle in the snow but with ABS and AWD I was feeling ok about it. Without AWD I won't be buying an Aptera. In-Wheel motors or not isn't a big deal. It's the AWD.
Sounds to me like they finally ran out of time and money. They have to produce a vehicle ASAP. In order to do that they are having to cut corners and remove features that got people excited. Is there anything else on the chopping block?
@@Fairburne69 I get you. I used to drive a Prius and really didn't have much problem in the winter. I think tires matter more in the rain and snow. But AWD will be missed.
16 Different computers on this vehicle. which control various sensors.
I don't understand. If the motor is in board, doesn't that reduce efficiency a whole bunch as now you need a full drive train?
A lot of people are upset at the in wheel motors appearing to not be a thing on the initial run, and I get why, but I’m more frustrated at the cloak and dagger of it all. I understand they couldn’t tell us who is supplying the drivetrain I understand NDA‘s and waiting on supply agreements, but for a company that says they pride themself on transparency They’ve been pretty opaque about even what type of drivetrain they’re going with. What would be so hard about telling us “hey guy, in wheel motor is not happening switching to a normal drivetrain” and leaving it at that? instead, we get this hemming and hawing for months at a time.
In the previous video they said the on board wire connectors are lighter and more reliable than the traditional connectors. Those are the reasons they are going with them.
I think JC was in an early video showing a bench-top breadboard of the low voltage hardware in operation.
Sending the beta mule to Italy for some last-minute suspension testing may have been necessitated by a change to the drivetrain. Back when they did the beta mule testing of the suspension, they said it was "done". Recently, we found out it wasn't. That points to a change that affected suspension performance and could back up Steve's thought that an in-wheel motor is out of the design initially.
A Chery emotor drivetrain
That's what I was thinking.
I wonder how the new drive train affects crash safety.
Steve you've defended crowdfunding vs Venture Capital in your previous videos but this reveal and the reaction from some of your viewers shows why crowdfunding is considered dumb money. Crowdfunders have no control within the company they have invested in, so when a company makes radical changes to its product or business plan all they get to do is sit back and watch the action unfold. This is one of the big reasons VCs require some level of control at the companies they invest in, not to usurp control but to have inside knowledge about the direction the company is moving and, if necessary, to steer the company back towards the pre-established business plan. Many of their contracts also have gtfo clauses where if things are going bad then they can pull out early and still save some of their capital. Crowdfunders have no say in whats happening and their investment is all or nothing.
Steve, the question you raised around minute 9:15 about connecting the wires onto the board: the same manual assembly process is needed for traditional wire assemblies, it's just done by the harness manufacturer. Traditional connectors still require crimping (done by machine) and pushing the crimped wires into the connector housing (done by hand).
I expect that Aptera will receive fully prepped wires (cut to length, ends exposed and potentially with ferrules attached, and color coded with heat shrink labels) and they'll push the wires into the connectors on the PCB during assembly.
I guess I assume that the wiring harness manufacturing would be automated but I guess I'm wrong
@@ApteraOwnersClub I was surprised seeing some engineer using single wires from a fresh new cable spool. Usually validation of cable trees works different: you get samples of your specification from your supplier (full tree or parts of it) and then you put it in and double-check length, fitting, protection through e.g. the BinC, etc. Instead the footage suggests that they decided to do the wiring themselves. This would explain why besides Elaphe also Yazaki as a supplier of the wiring was not on the investor webinar presentation. Developing that just now or since a few months is not the best approach technically although it might make sense financially. There is a lot of clarification needed from Aptera Motors side.
I saw this video of a wire insertion machine though ruclips.net/video/9um0EqVdNuA/видео.html
Is that not commonly used in production yet?
The machine in this video is cost efficient in high volume production of the same cable or at least the same connector. May be fitted for other connector / cable types too. But also high volume. Not what Aptera Motors needs right now. And usually 2nd / 3rd tier suppliers have these.
If your take on the in wheel motors is correct, then I am saddened😢
It’s just a guess, but I am going to guess that the new partner is Ford. At least I hope it is. This recent interview with Jim Farley really shows that he values efficiency as much as Aptera does. He also values V2G, which is something that I hope Aptera implements sooner rather than later.
ruclips.net/video/s6eq8ABvyYQ/видео.htmlsi=GtjTyQXeEm6e_oAr
Another possibility: A deal with Tesla, where Tesla supplies drivetrains for Aptera and Aptera supplies solar roofs for Tesla.
I thought the Chris’ mention of Tesla and Elon Musk was unusual. Maybe that was intentional, to test Aptera fanbase sentiment on working with Tesla.
Pipedream. Tesla is not going to help Aptera!
I'm disappointed with no hub motors. Also disappointed and betrayed they hide this important information from all. Keep quiet about something important is a passive way of lying. So much for transparency. At least it still has solar and body in carbon.
Yep, deceit by omission.
Aptera strike me as a typical research lab. They will never succeed in producing vehicles in mass production quantities, or even series production quantities. Changing the motor concept after all these years says they don't understand what they are doing. They are a bunch of space cadets! It's time to move along. Nothing to see here.
You're making a lot of assumptions about things you don't know much about. In order for them to have made the switch at this final stage, it means that they always had this planned as a potential backup, in case the inhab motor deal fell through. They are ahead of the game here
Not good. They are spinning their lack of deliverables and moving the goal post. If I were their VC I would freeze all funding.
Oddly, the timing is, they are just starting to campaign for new VC type funding.
Just became an investor!
Welcome to the family! 🤗
I'm sorry for your loss.
@@bad50meh, it's only money 🤑 I'm still waiting for Elio to take off 😂
@@bad50 I’ve lived many decades without encountering a single instance of unwelcomed empathy… ‘til now 😂
Welcome, thanks for your participation. 😊
Given how Chris described the new drivetrain, I think it's pretty clear it will be coming from Tesla. I wonder why the Elaphe motors aren't working out, I thought they were totally nailed down. But a Tesla drivetrain will be pretty cool too.
Can’t see Aptera as being more than a niche product with low production numbers. No versatility safety…
Certainly the trike, but question is does their IP really give ‘em an ability to partner/license to others and, if they can survive, a 4-wheel Aptera could be a big success as long as every car-maker on the planet takes a "not invented here" attitude and learns little from Aptera’s vehicle and production design efficiencies.
I'm an Accelerator, and I WANT the in-wheel motors.
I think that your drivetrain analysis is correct, supported by the changes to the front part of the frame and suspension released in the June update - from two days prior to the livestream. It’s a controversial topic in the community, and I really appreciate the timely covering of this topic. Keep up the great work Steve!
fully agree. also a controversial topic over here in the European community.
Looking forward to your interview video. I imagine you’ve had a hard time keeping quiet on the issue.
@@JayGrant-hi5ms Actually not so much as we got strong hints on this topic already on May 4th during our 1st European Meeting in Fulda, Germany and online.
The CEO of Elaphe was, besides others, our guest and talked about IWM, the development process and the current state of partnership. We also had a model of the M800 physically there (which I personally brought back to Ljubljana, Slovenia). So it is already a known topic in the European Community since almost 2 months.
Guess that's the advantage of living just a 4 hours drive away from most of the suppliers. After all Aptera is very much a European vehicle. ;-)