Why is Aptera using In-Wheel Motors? (ft. Elaphe)
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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*FAIL:* Like the other 40+ companies, these all seem to be a scam. Sorry, I meant 200+ other companies, that don't exist period. Where is all this stuff, every week it's 10 more garbage videos of "Revolutionary this & that." for the past 15 years...every day, every week, every month, non-stop. Where is everything? It's like 99.9999% are a scams looking for investors, even things like Orbit electric hubs seen at SEMI 5 years ago and it's crickets. And more mind blowing, I'm the only one saying it, shouldn't the number one response be:
"Oh look, another no-nothing product that you'll never see or hear or touch or know or have or drive or buy and with a 99.99% won't exist beyond the prototype."
It's like all these videos are clickbait. You're going to go down a rabbit hole of hundreds and hundreds of these companies that produce nothing. Gee, is 2024, where the hell is ANYTHING? Anything? Anything at all? All garbage.
High unsprung weight immediately came to mind. Another problem I see mentioned is motor cooling, but I expect that could be easily improved by slanting the wheel spokes to act as fan blades to force lots of air through the motor. (have toihave gravel screens in the airflow, though.) The unsprung weight problem could be addressed by using lighter materials in the motors. Redesigning the motors to use larger bearings held in thick rubber mounts might cushion and reinforce the unsprung motors. All designs have problems, most conventional designs have solved them satisfactorily using new ideas and some compromises. These problems can be solved also.
In an interview I saw, they mentioned the heat problem, and they said because it is so efficient, it just doesn't generate a lot of heat in the first place, and the large thermal mass of the motor helps spread the heat out
The hub motors in the Aptera are liquid cooled.
Fans use energy. Bouncing wheels are an energy eater. Unsprung wheel motors are not better. This is total BS.
@@1969barnabas air cooling would cut the unsprung weight,
@@solexxx8588 No fans. The Aptera uses radiant cooling in the skin of the vehicle to radiate the heat from the liquid cooling system into the air around the vehicle.
I want to drive one before I buy one so that I can evaluate the ride quality... because the unsprung weight is one of my concerns.
The fact that so many engineering-focused RUclips channels are so excited about Aptera says a lot
I'm from Slovenia and know a few people who work at Elaphe, great company, culture and people.
That aside, I think in-wheel motors are a bad idea. Too many issues: unsprung weight, gyroscopic effects, high voltage isolation, cooling, mechanical shock, corrosion, lack of gearing, etc.
Compare that to an inboard motor with CV axles (effectively 1/2 unsprung), and the inboard configuration wins every time.
I wish the company well, but I doubt they have a future with these designs.
This reminds me of direct drive props on commercial vessels. Many ships have Diesel-electric drives with electric motors directly turning the props, which eliminates gearboxes, the size and weight of low-speed engines, and the torsional vibration hassles encountered on traditional Diesel-mechanical drives.
Even with a conventional Ev design hub motors are a huge advantage because of the space you get back between the rear wheels, perfect for putting a large battery pack while still able to remain rear wheel drive.
That is the best explanation of why i need in wheel motor, thank you.
No drive shafts also means bigger wheel steering angles are possibly
Excellent! I really do hope torque vector steering is a reality in the first production vehicles.
Torque vectoring has to be in line Exactly with Wheel Direction & Speed! At EVERY given instance! When a car is turning the inside and outside wheels are going around different but changing radii! Due to this is travel different distances! Lets take a simple 90 degree, right angle turn. You are driving along at an appropriate steady speed, & initiate your turn. You neither accelerate nor brake, the inner wheel needs to slow down by the same or similar amount the outer wheel need to speed up! Now as regards Torque vectoring, does this accelerate the the outer wheel & brake the inner wheel? Or does reverse Torque (regenerative braking) the inner wheel to to the correct speed compared to the outer wheel. Or does it do both? A Win Win or at least Brake Even! Every slight steering should matched by the appropriate Toque Vectoring. Don't forget you can Brake Torque Vector Unpowered wheels to give greater control! Speaking of Brakes, where do they go now that they have been made homeless by the hub motor? Please don't say in, on or close by the Hub Motor? Hub Motors & Brake Rotors don't make good bed fellows!
Thumbs up for proper pronunciation of Ljubljana :)
This is why I like seeing building a EV towards a set of constraints vs. trying to be a replacement for a do everything car. You unlock things like motors in the wheels.
Lets be clear here: in wheel motors are a thing since like 50 years. Its just that production cost and overall complexity have never put it in focus for mainstream production.
The apterra is sized like a vw up, with none of the upsides but every single downside you get for basically driving a renault twizzy gone fat.
Have fun dieing in it in a crash.
@@trazyntheinfinite9895 And yet motors in wheels failed to become a thing 50 years ago. I don't think the Aptera is the perfect design for a EV, but I think vehicles like the Model 3 and Nissan Leaf are a poor implementation of their potential right now. A 2 seater commuter that ignores long range requirements in favor of balancing price/efficiency is a better goal than towing capacity. Removing rear leg room would be a boom for battery placement. While the interior space might seem small compared to the vehicle the reality is the main purpose is to move humans. Which in most cases is just one of them. As for safety it's considerably better than a motorcycle with 4 season potential.
If the only way to fix a problem is to add more batteries, you will only make it worse.
@@trazyntheinfinite9895 The design of hub and in wheel hub motors are not complex whatsoever in comparison to a mounted motor. Not only that, but you also don't need a complicated driveshaft to transmit the motor's output. The biggest issue of a hub or in wheel hub motor is unsprung weight.
One thing that really worries me about in-wheel motors is durability. With a traditional setup, with motor in a central location and connected to the wheels via shaft and CV joints etc, the motor is protected from road shock by the suspension, tires and everything else between the motor and wheel. But with in-wheel motors the only thing that absorbs any of that shock is the tire. I would think that over time this would put a huge amount of stress on the motors compared to non-IWM setups.
No. The Elaphe motors are fully potted to absorb repeated 100 G shocks. The wheels would likely be destroyed before damaging the motors.
@@n.brucenelson5920 Right, the are made so strong they can't be damaged. Those 20 year studies prove it, or wait they don't have those.
@@murraymadness4674 If you have something to contribute to the conversation, cite your own data. Misrepresenting what I said, and name calling isn't a contribution.
@@n.brucenelson5920I would like to hear more, are the motors heavier than needed as a result for making them as resistant to shocks? What kind of solutions have they applied?
@@MyFilippo94 Elaphe Motors considered using transverse flux and axial flux motor design, but settled on radial flux after evaluating all the pluses and minuses, including ease and cost of production. They would be lighter without the potting, but would not then be robust enough for the application. They have built and tested many prototype cars - more than 40.
Mechanical engineer here. I used to design concepts for top secret work, some including advanced electric drives. This team took a system approach like we used. It is brilliant, IMHO. I would love to own one, or own some stock, but I am getting too old.
Others will pick up where left. The passion and the need has arrived.
I'd love one of these. Their solar recharge matched with the low useage is a great match.
Two unrelated thoughts. First, Elaphe is also the scientific name of a genus of rat snakes. Second, in-wheel motors are very cool, but no mention is made of the fact that they increase the unsprung mass of the wheels, which degrades the handling of the vehicle. Great in-wheel motors should therefore weigh as little as possible.
Cars have heavy axles and hubs and tored .. so here there s no axle lightweight hub and tire plus much smaller lighter breaks are sufficient coause of regen ... so it actually weighs the same .. thats what i heard .. for bycicles its a different story .. for mopeds they do it all the time !!! Millions on the road with hub motors !!
I always thought the combination of in wheel motors and an easily removed battery pack would be the best thing for repairing and upgrading.
I've got a GMC Envoy XL with the healthy 5.3l V8, slightly modified to 350hp and slightly over 20mpg. 4wd isn't working, and I want 4x4, more mpg, and more power. After I buy my Aptera, I'll still need the 'and' rig for work, hauling, towing, which it does well. I'm thinking of making the Envoy a powerful Hybrid by going with these same motors in the front wheels of the Envoy after disconnecting non-functioning 4wd. Having the front electric system totally separate from V8 drive system with separate controls for simplicity, infinitely variable torque-split and vectoring, ability to go all gas, or all electric (for short spurts), or everything for mo powaah. Ability to use electric to boost mpg of I.C.E, or use I.C.E. in combination with regen braking to boost electrical range like Chevy Volt hybrid. Lots of room on floor for plenty of battery, and hood/XL roof for solar, to take from aptera's philosophy. But with hybrid, trailer-rippin practicality, why wouldn't this work?
well i sure hope the wheels being made in Slovenia will help the Aptera make it to our market. i didn't realise they were made here.
Plus, it seems like fewer things to break down and easier to replace an in wheel motor if needed.
Michelin tried a very sophisticated version of the wheel motor (Michelin active wheel), with a very light motor rotating at high speed driving the wheel through a gear reduction: the road holding,with a active suspension, was satisfactory, but the assembly was very expensive and the lifespan was scaled down...
Love all the advantages and the efficiency of in-wheel motors! Pre-order holder and small investor who can't wait to be behind the yoke of a new Aptera!!
A typical 3,300 lb car has 4 tire/wheel combinations weighing about 50 lbs each, to which you add a portion of the suspension A-arms, etc. (front) and the braking system - use 50 lbs additional, for 100 lbs/corner, and you get a sprung:unsprung ratio of 8:1 for the front, and higher for solid axle rears. Much engineering goes into automotive ride quality to damp road-induced oscillation and impact. Here, you not only have a very light vehicle, but you are adding a 50 lb electric motor to the admittedly lighter tire/wheel combination, and some form of braking that may also be incorporated. It's hard to see how the ratio could be higher than about 3:1. Seems like it would jangle your fillings loose on a bumpy road. Add to that the fact that the motors would be banging around over every bump, imposing shock loads on the windings, bearings, etc. and you'd need mil-spec construction to survive. Just move them inboard and run a half-shaft to the wheel - problem solved.
They most emotionally invested fan and don’t or won’t see any issues with this vehicle. They don’t understand that they are not enough to bring this vehicle mainstream. The vehicle will sink like a stone without market adoption. As an investor I will enjoy the 2 to 3 year hype and be out has collector. Enjoy the ride and love the car for what it is, not what you want or hope it will be
Have two Launch Editions on pre order and an Aptera stock holder as well. Go Aptera go! ⚡️
These will make a great add on to front wheel drive cars to give a little boost to MPG of gas. Allowing us to transition from one to the other gradually, instead a over night switch. Which will never happen.
That's a good point. If there was some way to retrofit your current gas car to become a hybrid I could see a lot more people switching over.
I've had mine on order since just after their restart. I so can't wait for mine 😮
Also In wheel motors need much higher current levels, which means thicker cables and more robust and expensive control circuit. What you gain on the swings you lose on the roundabout.
This car really carries the ethos of the G1 insight! Concerned about increased unsprung mass with those in wheel motors, but using lighter materials throughout would absolutely help, as would shocks with aggressive valving or electronically controlled variable valving, along with some good programming.
Very excited, and looking forward to getting one of these.
I am a supporter of electric propulsion technology and a fan of EV companies like Tesla. But I have a concern regarding the placement of the electric motors in the Aptera vehicle, or what is known as the In Wheel Motor. Another company tried the same motor layout for their pickup trucks and went as far as racing one of their prototype vehicles in Baja. And the result: The vehicle did not finish the race as it encountered a lot of breakdowns. And the reason is, in the in-wheel motor layout, the electric motors are not protected by the suspension system and in every bump, potholes or road imperfections that the vehicle encounters, the shock is transmitted directly to the electric motors and it's bearings, increasing it's wear and chances of breakage. In the electric motors, in order to maximize the efficiency and power, the armature should be as close as possible to the stator, to maximize the attraction and repulsion forces of the electromagnets inside the motor. If the motor is mounted in wheel, then the road shocks will go directly to the bearings of the electric motors. If the bearings wear out or get damaged even slightly, then the stator will come into contact with the armature, destroying the motor itself. That vehicle will perform nicely while it's still new and always used on smooth roads only. But once it gets old, or used in rough, unpaved roads, then mechanical problems in the motors will quickly show.
I believe your wrong about the breakdowns of the endurance pickup. The real reason it quit early was energy consumption was higher than anticipated due to the larger tires and the gruelling conditions, they were worried they wouldn’t be able to make it to the next charging stop in the very remote area, the motors actually performed quite well, also many many top companies trucks regularly break down on this brutal course. Plus don’t spread FUD about things you really know nothing about.
@@Airman749 Spreading FUD??? I'm a supporter of EVs and a fan of excellent EVs like Tesla. Stop accusing me of that foolishness. What I'm talking about is purely engineering, nothing more. Just think about it: If the real reason for them to quit racing is energy consumption, then simply increasing the battery size, and/or setting up additional charging stations along the way should have solved the problem easily, right? And how come it led to the bankruptcy and closure of the company itself if their concept is so great? Don't you think that the problem they discovered would have cost their company a large amount of money for the re-engineering of the vehicle, plus the tainted reputation of their design and therefore unacceptable? How come the other companies have chosen the layout with the motors within the body or frame, therefore protected by the suspension from harsh bumps and shocks?
And you are so quick to tell me that these are things that I don't know about? Don't make me laugh. I'm sure you are the one who has no knowledge at all about these things which is why you are accusing me of spreading FUD instead of having a good discussion from the engineering's point of view regarding this subject.
All I need is some IWM that I can install on my 2wd 4Runner to make it a 4wd Hybrid 4Runner.
The biggest reason to use these would be to retrofit other vehicles. Keep the gas engine for reliability, you don't need a big battery if you have a gas tank
No. The brakes have to go somewhere.
It also moves the weight to the edges of the car improving stability and possibly ride smoothness.
Moving the wheels out does add stability; but because the wheels are more massive now, and because the wheels must move when the road forces sit, you have a larger mass being tossed around.
So you have a choice. You can move all that extra kinetic energy into the car body (so rougher ride), or you can slow down the suspension (resulting in much worse handling).
Smoothness? i dont think because unsprung masses did increase the inertia who make bounce the wheels and so degrades road holding...In wheel motors are not a new idea: the first known car with such motors was the Lohner Porsche 4 wheel driven electric car from... 1899! Motor wheeled vehicles (electric or hydraulic) are very common but only use in heawy and slow vehicles like construction machinery, mining machinery, handling machines like boat moving,etc...
I did not see any comment on the potential issue of having the brakes inside the electric motor. On one hand the motors need cooling to operate well. On the other the brakes are putting a lot of heat into the pods.
The space use advantages granted by removing motors from the vehicle's main body are squandered by unnecessarily limiting the interior volume. There would be some drag cost to extending the sides of the vehicle to the outer reach of the wheels, but the vehicle would serve a greater proportion of practical use cases. The market would be broader if the Aptera could reasonably serve as an only vehicle.
Aptera will serve as our only vehicle, and will meet the needs of many retired people. Our Gen 1 Honda Insight serves well now, and Aptera will improve on its performance in almost every respect, including carrying capacity.
I wonder how much effect there is on ride comfort and noise with the additional unsprung mass of the of the hub motors.
Exactly what I'm thinking. The un-sprung weight is my only concern about the Aptera. I want to drive one before I commit to buying one.
Does anyone know how much these particular hub motors weigh?
The video doesn't address this concern. Every technical choice is a compromise between multiple qualities. No choice can be all good and no bad. So this video is missleading.
I think it's a fair question, but on the other hand I think it's something that matters less than you might think. The unsprung weight of an Escalade is huge compared to a compact car, but nobody would claim they ride poorly I don't think.
@@bradley3549 its the ratio between unsprung mass and sprung mass that is important.
@@niconico3907 I agree and that's my point really. BEVs are relatively massive for their size, generally speaking, so an increase in unsprung weight may be less significant in the grand scheme of things, IMO.
in wheel motors eliminate the mechanical joint losses thus improve efficiency . In other words it contribute to energy savings as well. The bad side is it is prone to breakage through harsh road condition such as pot holes and rough roads where the most damage sustain would be the bearing itself
would love to mount one of these wheels on my wheelbarrow. seen people use bicycle motors etc, but this would be next level yard mastery!
Rider tractors and side by sides too, really grat concept. Hope it all comes together in a slick retrofitable packedge for legacy applications.
Visualize the flying cars in "Back to the Future"....with all the obviously new, tech gear and bits bolted on the inside/outside of a 30 yr old rebuilt vehicle.
Grin technologies has a kit for just that, or you could take your chances with ebay Chinese kits.
@@punkdigerati TY for the tip.
Scooter hub motors may fit wheelbarrows
Future electric and hybrid should use such wheel motors, made of lightweight durable materials, electric bicycles, scooters, all of them on motor wheels, and cars will also come to this.
The main problem is micro particles, like dust and water.. good luck
Aptera Elaphe WMs are fully potted.
Thanks for this useful information on it’s in wheel motors. I have just had to guess that they were efficient before. Now I know a bit more about them.
I am around 7500 in line and am scheduled for a 400 mile range vehicle. I’m getting the full solar package and have designed a independently solar powered car port to keep the thing in. Looking forward to late 2023 delivery.
Right now my only concerns are repairing and how comfortable the Aptera is.
Thanks for a very informative video.
2 concerns I have is; extra shocks to the motor on rough terrain.
And how that amount of unsprung weight will affect the ride and handling.
The shocks to the motor and how that affects wear seems like the bigger issue, if you can get the unsprung mass of the in-wheel motors low enough to not be a big deal. Perhaps nit having the additional drivetrain to deal with easily makes up for the unsprung weight handling issues in practice.
A direct drive motor doesnt really have anything sensitive to shock loading. As long as the bearings are up to the task, all else should be fine.
The tires they show in the animations seem to have a tall profile. Which makes sense if your unsprung weight is very high.
Finally in wheel motors on the road.
Funny that this showed up in my recommended after Aptera announced that they're pivoting to a traditional electric motor
We need more electric vehicles with in wheel motors
Game changer! Id buy the 400mi one. It would be amazing to have solar at your house and just power this thing off solar energy. Im surprised the government is allowing this lol.
The Aptera actually has built-in solar panels so you probably wouldn't even need a house Charging set up if you don't drive more than maybe 30 or 50 miles a day.
I think you mean 2-5 miles a day...
this will also require a motorcycle license because there is no way that would pass a US automobile crash test
Aptera is what the E-car should have been, from the start. Light, simple, efficient and economical. That makes me worry for it's future, the other manufacturers of electric junk can't allow such an alternative.
excellent ! so Slovenia is noteworthy not just for its stunning nature and angling.
any thoughts on suitability of these motors to convert a classic car into a cool EV ? would free up extra space for batteries and the motor part of the transition would be a breeze.
That's exactly what I was wondering!Not just classic cars, but any lower-weight car that blew it's engine...
@@KingClovis I checked - for now, they only supply OEM's, not private customers or small accounts, regretfully. Lightyear is also working with them (they claim a 97% efficiency on the motors). Didn't find a price anywhere.
@@justforthehackofit Aptera charges $2500 for the third motor, which may give a hint.
@@n.brucenelson5920 Well, they'd have to get that price per wheel a little lower for it to be econimically viable. I would think you'd two wheel/motors at least, plus the batteries. It would be interseting to compare that with replacing an engine in a used car...
I've been considering that possibility. One issue I thought of is the hub motors limits compatibility with wheels. A lot of classic cars have fairly small wheels in comparison to modern cars. Even if you put low profile tires on there could still be clearance issues to contend with.
Also there are aesthetic considerations. Aptera is completely hiding their wheels so they don't have to look pretty, but a large part of the experience with classic cars is how they look.
Using hub motors will also likely require reengineering the suspension. Likely requiring custom fabricated parts to attach to the car. Also concerns of changing the car's balance and driving charactistics.
None of this is a deal breaker, just factors to consider
Well, if just the hub motor replaced the wheel structure itself, and they should distributed the unsprung weight in four smaller engines, one in each wheel of a car, wouldn't that help?
I have been shaking my head since the boom of electric vehicles have not included hub motor equipped versions. It seems to me - and I am far from an automotive engineer - that if you used a hub motor (or IWM as you call them) on all four wheels you could then use a computer to distribute power when and where needed. If you are easing down the autobahn then only one of the motors would be needed. If traction becomes an issue, all four could be used. (or any combination of them) The ECU could even use the motors to yaw the vehicle if needed. So many possibilities! Whenever I have asked why hub motors are not used the answer I consistently receive is "too much unsprung weight" ...It seems that the benefits outweigh the negatives in this case.
I'm not an automotive engineer either, but when I was younger, I was interested in racing. I read a few books on how to become a better (race) driver. They covered suspension a lot, and a lot of racing is understanding how to use your suspension in ways that don't slow you down.
If you want good suspension performance, the last place you want weight is in the wheels. Lighter wheels can react to irregularities in the road faster, by having less mass for the car's spring to overcome (the spring is responsible for pushing the wheel back down to the road). There's a lot of other items that are impacted (spinning something heavier takes more energy, etc.) but the suspension issues are what typically leads to in-wheel motors only being used on prototype cars (because in-wheel motors ARE cool) or heavier production trucks (because the wheel to body ratio of weight is still low when the body get much heavier).
That's why people (ok some people) routinely pay $1300 for a set of wheels that reduces the weight in the wheels by about 12 lbs. You can immediately feel the difference, and in racing your track times will improve even if your driving doesn't. To get an idea of how much people will pay, Corvette has a set of wheels for about $12,000 to $20,000 that are 100% carbon fiber and reduce wheel weight by 41 lbs. There's an entire market for lighter disk brakes, disk brake calipers, suspension arms, etc.
Lordstown Motors (defunct) produced the Endurance (about 50 to 100 vehicles). Their additional wheel weight due to the motor was reported to be 85 lbs per wheel. Nobody said anything nicer than "ok", "boring", or "passable" about it's ride quality.
The way this weight is measured is in a ratio to the car's overall weight. Bits of the car not supported by the spring comprise "unsprung weight". A typical car has a unsprung to total mass ratio between 0.12 and 0.15. Assuming a 75 lb motor, and an additional 100 lbs per wheel of suspension, that's 525 lbs of unsprung weight, which would be comfortable with a 3,500 to 4,375 lb vehicle. There are tricks than can improve this, but they are generally avoided because they impact the car's ability to corner or add even more weight in the wheel.
Heavy wheels also mean more tire wear, as the tire itself flexes more when it can't bounce upwards as quickly due to its mass.
A better approach would have been to use near-Wheel motors (placing the motor outside the wheel, which provides a lot of benefits, like less motor vibration, leading to smaller bearings, leading to reduced weight, and no constantly flexing (bend it till it snaps) high voltage electrical cable going into the wheel. The REE P7-c does this, but it's a production box van chassis
Can tire chains be installed on the Aptera when the front tire cover is removed?
What happens when an IWM hits a pothole at 70mph or a manhole with a missing cover at 40? A non-IWM car gets thrown out of alignment or cracks the rim of a wheel. An IWM has a lot of unsprung magnets and coils much closer to the point of impact.
It’s fine no issues must be the tire sidewall and why don’t you live in a better town where they use their resources to fix potholes?
@@Wheelieking619 I've been through almost all 50 states, and I've yet to see a town without a pothole. Heck some of the interstate highways are so bad that it feels like 30 miles of washboard.
I'm just waiting for my Aptera.
Look like it is light enough for hovering accessories or flying module maybe greatest because the body is suut for inlet air to lift it into fly or above ground
I love all these busters that come straight out with the unsparing weight thing which isn’t a thing except for busters looking at specs on paper. I want this aptera vehicle now! Until then I’m gonna get 2 more hub motors for my Renegade , for the two rear wheels and and a trunk full o batts and I’m gonna drag race all the busters in San Diego.
Can I plow into your Aptera with the 80,000 lbs of semi-truck I used to drive? It will only be at 25mph, just a gentle kiss.
@@ATEC101 you are a true skid master.
@@ATEC101 Ah yes, the chicken shit argument. Well played. 🙄
Torque vectoring is not an in wheel motor only feature, ICE cars have had that in the form of limited slip differentials since before the people at aptera were born.
As to the other performance, I want to see the laguna seca or Willow Springs lap times for this compared to a chaterham which has the same weight and power output
True, but these devices consume power in increased friction and heat, unlike the wheel motors.
@@n.brucenelson5920 not enough to matter. And they will last the life of the vehicle as long as you replace 3 oil seals and the oil every 5-10 years
@@pogo1140 The small losses from the differential and drive shafts are quite significant for a vehicle as efficient as Aptera is, especially when considering that we are trying to maximize the solar contribution to range.
@@n.brucenelson5920 so you have a 110 hp motor sitting in an isolated dry box vs 2 50hp electric motors bouncing up and down with just the tires to protect it.
And of course a Chaterham and Aptera are identical in design language, use case, and owner demographics.
🧐
Three wheeled vehicles tend to be more unstable when there is a single wheel at the front and 2 at the rear. The Aptera layout is like the famous Morgan three wheeler which I don't think has ever been described as unstable.
One at the front and two at the back tends to be more unstable:
a) Because the weight distribution of this configuration tends to be unfavourable (ie substantially more than, say, a third of the weight over the single wheel).
b) Ordinary drivers tend to brake in bends and with the weight transfer, both longitudinal and lateral, that is inherent with braking in a bend and that is when this arrangement is particularly unstable.
The 'Nissan' Delta racer has a very narrow front track, but is driven by a racing driver who is less likely to brake deep into a bend, has a much more favourable weight distribution and can be booted early on the exit, although it must be a bit power-on oversteery (!) with the rear end providing most of the roll stiffness.
@@theinspector1023 the deltawing cant tip because of design geometry and rear weight bias. Not to hate I bet the driver is fantastic, but I think they made it ohysically impossible to tip if you're braking too hard in a corner. Sometimes you have to do things like that in a race
The Morgan has never been popular either, it’s a niche vehicle just like the aptera.
It all boils down to efficiency vs. maintainance cost.
I have had experiences from hitting potholes where it knocks out motor and then you wind up getting a whole new wheel motor. That costs $500 or more and that’s too much. (here’s question) Does these wheel motors work without being knocked out constantly because of potholes?
i think any claims beyond efficiency and packaging are a stretch. Torque vectoring can be done with inboard motors. The suspension works better with inboard motors (safety and handling). The car's polar moment of inertia is better with inboard motors (handling, albeit a very small impact)
At least they didn't call it full self driving and actually call it level 2 autonomy at the start
It would be great if i could have electric wheels on the front and keep the factory driveline in place for the rear of my 2x4 hilux. Then I'd have a plug in hybrid and I don't have to upgrade my car
There is a company in Australia building electric 4x4 Hilux utes - they buy the rolling chassis off Toyota.
IN A lot of states, a three wheeled vehicle is considered a motorcycle and many states have mandatory helmet laws for motorcycles.
Yea, I rented a Polaris slingshot once. Surprisingly, California is NOT one of the helmet requiring states
Yes, but autocycles are a different breed, and they are starting to not require helmets for them.
I think AK is the only state left that requires a helmet.
High currents inside the motor at low speeds and high torque could reduce the durability of the motor. The motors might be inexpensive enough to make it a good choice anyway.
What if I attach these to a fwd car. Put Aptera on the rear wheels. Since car is at 380lbs of torque. This could help the car grip on a luanch vs front wheel skidding for traction
Another excellent video! Great research. Keep it up Brewster!!
I love the idea of the M will Motors always have my question though is this is unsprung weight therefore the motors are going to experience every vibration and every jolt from the roadway how's that going to affect their service life and efficiency and stability of power?
Any towing options (like bikes)?
I really like the idea of in wheel motors. Most modern cars are pretty damn efficient when driving at highway speeds, if electric motors could pick up the in-between it would remove an inconceivable amount of idle pollution, without trying to convert the entire world to a solution we only have the means to provide to less than 10% of the population.
You lose a lot of torque when you don't use gears, there is always a loss somewhere. Nothing is free. Plus hitting a hard bump can damage the actual motor.
The torque is already way more than needed for good performance with these ungeared motors. In fact, a very reactive ABS/traction control is supplied to deal with it. The Elaphe wheel motors are potted in a rubbery compound that can cause the motors to take repeated 100 G shocks without damage. We are talking about breaking wheels before the motors are damaged.
Getting rid of gears is a great way to get rid of weight with or without wheel motors. Electric motors are much better on torque than gasoline engines, and steam is better yet. With electric, you could eliminate gearing entirely and use electricity, but for some reason they still use transmissions.
High torque is essential in getting a 4,000 to 6,000 pound EV to accelerate. With the Aptera weighing only 1800 to 2000 pounds, that's not a relevant issue.
@@richpate9436 Having ridden in a prototype last November, I can tell you that the fun factor of all that controlled torque in a light vehicle is off the charts!
@@richpate9436 Nonsense. What that means is they can use much lighter gears instead. Have you seen bike hub motors? They ones with gears are LIGHTER and MORE EFFICIENT than those without them. Learn something, don't believe Aptera hype/bs
The few theoretical advantages of hub motors, as outlined here, do not make a dent in the practical disadvantages. Willing to be proved wrong when Aptera succeeds where others have given up.
I invite you to list the disadvantages compared to the advantages. You are correct that there are trade-offs, but I am confident enough after discussions directly with Elaphe that I have placed an early order and will be relating my experience in all weather conditions next year.
Basically they save weight and costs by eliminating the differntial mechanism, the driveshafts, lubricating oil, etc.
Unfortunately 3-wheels vehicles have less stability in long turns at high speed.
I would increase a lot the wheels diameter to reduce the stress of the tires in such conditiion.
I wonder if in wheel motors are a good way to add 4wd for when you need it?
This was 3 years ago. It seems that it didn't catch on. It would've been cool to add AWD to any car.
ruclips.net/video/iQ4lTPVR3qc/видео.html
3 wheel drive not 4 wheel drive , there is only 3 wheels !
Well done. Great product.
Please tell more about the motors / cruise control keeping the vehicle in lane without input from the steering yoke. I'm curious about the lane control / adaptive cruise control. What does the $1300 get me?
The company can't really speak to it yet officially because it's too early, but right now they are looking at comma two and comma three from Comma AI. Check out Cyber Owner's channel for more on that.
Why don't they use an induction rotor as both motor and regen. Mag elev trains use a similar principle but as a strip to levitate and motor along. Saves a lot of weight.
The Elaphe motors used by Aptera also do regeneration, which handles most of the braking duties.
Amazing car.
In general, the heavier the electric motor, the more power it can handle.
Unfortunately for direct-drive (non-geared) hub motors, that means a powerful motor is working against the suspension as unsprung weight.
I like this car, but I'd personally rather see them ditch the hub-motors in favor of two on-board motors w/ drive shafts.
I also don't see much benefit to offering the rear-wheel being driven.
Driving on snowy highways will hell in this car
I live in Iowa. The fast reacting traction control lessens my concern
I will report on my experience.
Thank you for the thank you 🤣🤣
....⚡>> IWM
Maybe with smaller motors there would be less unsprung mass.
I believe the Elaphe WMs designed for Aptera weigh around 50.7 lbs.
One benefit of replacing Aluminum or steel wheels with carbon fiber is a reduction in un-sprung weight, giving a vehicle a number of performance advantages, well in ICE vehicles.
I suppose the instant application of torque negates some of these advantages where rotational acceleration is handicapped by extra mass. I also suppose torque vectoring substantially negates many downsides of the extra un-sprung weight.
How is the Aptera on bumpy, potholed streets? I doubt torque can help at all here and this requires significant refinements in spring rates and dampers. I look forward to seeing hiw different this tech will feel while driving.
OK I want to explore Front Wheel EV for my big fat American Car. When can I get prices on a complete retrofit kit and what ranges of HP and Battery can i get? I see this a great time to go AWD Hybrid with vehicles that are still in good condition but are Front Gas Engine Rear Drive and have space for In Wheel Motors and a few Batteries. Please let me know your status for the US. Dennis
Not getting any feedback on Elaphe motors in the US? One comment stated unless you are Vehicle manufacturer we can not support you! Well, we want to be a AWD Hybrid retrofit supplier to purchased vehicles commercial and personal vehicles. We can't even complete an adequate business plan with so little input from Elaphe? When will we get Support in the US Business Development. Rumor are out that the motors don't work which must be sour grapes because so few have seen one in action.
@@DennisMurphey The main issues would seem to be that a simple conversion would most likely fail. You would have to rebuild most of the suspension arms to hold the hub (in-wheel) motor, and you would have to have enough design experience to build a high voltage wire that could bend repeatedly over the life of the vehicle without metal fatigue breaking it internally.
And then, you would also have to have a multi-wheel motor controller, with safeguards should a single wheel motor fail.
Finally, the in-wheel motors generate a lot of heat for the small space they are in, that typically means a liquid cooling system that again crosses from the wheel to the body, where larger radiators can be installed, or attaching passive heat sinks to the motors (which don't work well when the wheel isn't spinning fast enough to get forced air convection.
Finally, the unsprung weight will be high, about 75ish to 85ish pounds greater per wheel. Considering it's about $1300 to reduce 12 lbs of unsprung weight by buying alloy rims, the work to retrofit the typical american car might make the project look more like a P1800 Cyan price range than a P1800 vintage price range, unless you just throw ride quality out the window.
Still, I want to do the same thing, despite knowing too many engineers that tell me all the issues. :)
What is the best in-wheel motor for a cargo bike that will be pulling a trailer as well?
Vulnerability to environmental contamination (I live near Buffalo, NY!) And impact/vibration with mich less suspension isolation are of concern
They need to 'stretch' the Aptera to make it a 4-seater. Use the extra under-seat area for batteries to maintain the range.
What about unsprung weight? The industry has allways strived to REDUCE unsprung weight in the suspension in order to improve handling. This seem to work against that... (?)
You are correct. However the 50 lbs the wheel motors weigh is still within the range of vehicles shipping with steel wheels and the other advantages of the motors make the tradeoff worthwhile. The moose test shows that the handling performance is still better than many vehicles sold in the US.
gonna gloss over all the cons? the massive increase of unsprung weight and the motors are no-longer isolated form the road not every one lives in the CBD where the roads a perfectly smooth those motors are gonna be destroyed real fast. also forging the electric motors massive advantage of crazy RPM's when run through a reduction box can produce some awesome torque. the idea is ok on a light weight vehicle that will never leave the CBD but to say they are better then regular motors set ups is stupid.
Aptera....Add one more wheel and I would buy one.
I think the ceo plans to make his second model a regular 4 wheel car but keeping the same efficiency, repair and upgradeability etc
How susceptible to vibration damage due to bumpy roads or pot holes are the in wheel motors?
I have been involved in building electric motors for use in seawater. The motors are completely potted in a shock absorbing, rubbery compound that can absorb over 100 Gs of shock. I had a conversation with Elaphe engineers about this and am convinced they know what they are doing here.
I bet an axial flux motor would be a good application for in-wheel motors to minimize motor mass.
The big disadvantages of in wheel motors in un-sprung weight, higher shock & vibration on spindle bearings, and in case of steering wheels, gyroscope effect resistance to turning. For light vehicles of moderate speed, these are not major problems, but for most EVs they are serious problems.
What would you class as moderate speed 30mph to 50mph.
The increase in mass should work to lessen vibration, due to increased inertia.
Yeah, you nailed.
The handling of this car must be awful at high speed...
I would not drve this car more than 50 mph on a narrow, fast apline road... believe me.
Take a look at what the gyroscopic effect is and how massively it can impact on the handling 8f a car.
People spend a lot of money to have super-extre-light aluminum rims and then this guys try to convince us that law of phisics doesn't hold for them...
This is a good city car in the best case.
@@giuliobuccini208 Yes, look at the physics. This issue has been well studied with numerous technical papers published, and many test vehicles built. More than 40 projects have been completed by Elaphe alone and also by other companies such as the the BRABUS EV based on the Mercedes-Benz E-Class. Actual experience does not show the limits you are ascribing. Yes, more unsprung weight is an issue, but it can be largely designed for, in exchange for many other advantages that wheel motors provide.
So what about driving comfort at high speed? The rotating mass of the Motor has no shock absorber and will be rattling and shaking ! Some people will say that’s the price of pioneering, but most people will not buy the product.
In wheel motors must be a trade off with unsprung wheel weight. Also the three wheel design ( great only on smooth roads ) would find it difficult to navigate the 1km track ,into the farm where I work.
I'm no expert. But if in-wheel motors have all these advantages, then why not make a conventional looking EV like a sedan or SUV? Also, wouldn't each wheel be super heavy? Would it be difficult to rotate tires?
the problem with in wheel motors is the weight from the unsprung masses who degrade the road holding by wheels bouncing= a bad idea...not forgott that the first car with such thing was the Lohner Porsche from 1899!!! so not a new idea...
They chose to design what will be the most aerodynamically and power efficent vehicle on the road instead.
should be more popular by now, most people just wants to go point a to b with their cars. most of the weaknesses of in-wheel can be reduced with larger wheel sizes.
larger wheel = more weight.
Is this available to buy for DIY projects ?
How will these handle flood waters in Miami?
The motors are not affected by salt water. Still, it is extra-ordinarily dangerous to enter flooded areas in any vehicle, even though the Aptera will float.
So far the Aptera is the only electric car that makes sense.