@@santanumaitra3962 based on the story as presented in the podcast, he has no previous drivetrain development experience. I found it very worrisome that he's in charge of implementing something so critical. This might be something that should be contracted out like they did the suspension.
@@thisisme379 I trust the trust Steve, Chris A and others have put in him. They would not let anybody screw up "their baby" for which they took so much risk and effort. Additionally if one only trusts people with challenges that mastered the same before, where are the development opportunities for new, really great folks?
@@thisisme379 Yeah they should have hired someone who's been engineering experimental, commercial, and consumer electric and hybrid vehicles for the past 20+ years. And ordered powertrain parts from a company thats been making drivetrains and other car parts for over 100 years. Oh wait... they did.
I was sad when it was first announced that in-wheel motors wouldn't be on the Launch Edition, but I'm feeling better about it once I read that the EMR3 has already been used so extensively and is a proven technology. In honor of CPC, Forza Aptera!
I'm very excited for the FWD decision. I'm a snow area driver who agrees with 2 wheel drive plus snow tires argument. I currently drive a Jetta. I'm also highly encouraged by the movement away from perfection paralysis. Get the "not a car company" into production!! So we can drive from empty to full!!!!
@@brianrosenlof388 Technically they can't start the vehicle when it's empty so they wouldn't go anywhere. It's an empty slogan that got 21 likes; says a lot about their bright customers.
I Love the excitement and I know Steve , Chris , Richard and everybody at Aptera are going to have the most fun once the PI 3 & 4 are done because they get to drive them around ! I am ready to get my Aptera NOW so I can shoe it off to everyone in my neighborhood , That's going to be so AWESOME , LET'S GO APTERA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😎
Great podcast guys!!! Keep 'Em coming!! Since I reserved the 2WD | 25KW Luna with full solar I'm not to stressed about the elimination of AWD. In fact, I'm more comfortable with the transition to an inboard motor to power the front wheels. Vitesco is a proven drive train with no supply chain issues and it sounds like the EMR 3 will be plenty powerful. We also don't have to worry about unsprung weight that some folks were worried about. It sounds like the Elaphe in-wheel motors needed much more development time than Aptera anticipated so the transition to Vitesco was necessary to deliver the Launch Edition in 2025. I believe the drive train solution was the right one. This change might be as impactful as the switch to CPC and a carbon fiber body. Kudos to Aptera for making some gutsy decisions on the design of the most efficient vehicle on the planet... with ot without in-wheel motors!!
I got introduced to Aptera back in 2007 while in college too. I would have loved one of those early hybrids. I was heartbroken when they originally folded and I was thrilled at their resurrection.
At this point, Aptera has one foot in the grave and one across the finish line. Critics saying Aptera are being idiots fir changes made, clearly have never brought a production vehicle to market, let alone one that departs from traditional designs. Glad to see Aptera management trying to reach out to the community and try to help people see why Aptera will not be a Fisker. I feel bad for those who paid tens of thousands for something that will be a pain to keep going and has no company to back the product. Please keep doing as many podcasts/RUclips channels as possible. I get it can be a pain to find time for it, but the public needs to see Aptera management.
Looking Forward to getting DATA, DATES, and PRICING....keep it going y'all. Like most, I too am fine with the drive change as long as it is reliable AND cost effective all the way to the purchase price.
Being a Canadian and also both an investor and reservation holder, I WILL wait for my All Wheel Drive/ Off roader/ 1000 km version. The main reason why i ordered that configuration is * Canadian Winters (yes we also use Snow tires, it is mandatory for us) * the reason for the 1000 km battery, is taking into consideration the range loss from cold weather. Anyway, thanks Aptera team for the transparency. Much appreciated !!!
Are you from Quebec? I don't know of any other provinces where snows are mandatory. But yeah, the range loss in cold weather and the advised 80% full charge can really reduce mileage. I think the 600 mile version should work for me.
@@Randy-J We require them in BC for most highways. Realistically not having them is risking your life on many winter passes. That said 400 miles is still tons even with winter losses.
Vermont USA here and same. I'm not 100% convinced the all wheel make a big difference, since I've always been fine with front wheel drive, but I wanted it because I don't know how it will handle. I think the off-road wheel covers are going to be necessary for driving in snow.
@@jeremyrom Coming from the mountains in Vermont I'm always amused when I talk to someone from New Jersey or Virginia that is convinced they need all wheel drive. The marketing has been effective.
I'm happy with the drivetrain change. I had several reservations about the in-wheel motors. I'll gladly give up torque vectoring for reliability since stability control (oversteer/understeer) can use the brakes instead.
I actually wanted a front wheel drive version, so maybe I will scoot up the list a little. It’s too bad the in wheel motors aren’t ready to go yet, but I think using them for the rear wheel is a good way to get started when they are ready.
While I was initially disappointed about the IWM not being used for the initial production, I can understand their reasoning and advantages with the inboard motor. I really enjoyed this video and looking forward to getting my LE Aptera!
Well I was a little worried when I heard about the change of drive train, But now I feel excited that were still going to get our Aptera's, and now they can boost the first additions will truly be collectors item once they switch back to the hub motors. This new drive train will be a collector's limited-edition dream. Now if you will excuse me I need to go add some more mothballs to my Star Trek Uniform until it's time to command my new ground shuttlecraft, sorry my new Aptera.🚀🛸
we love it, do more podcasts like this. You guys didn't really say much about the reasons for ditching in-wheel motors, but I believe you that it was the best choice for the launch version. "you can only innovate so much, but eventually you gotta launch it". Maybe next time the podcast discussion can go even deeper into technological decisions. thank you.
I loved it! Do more! But get Richard back to work! In the immortal words of AOC Steve... "Let's get this show on the road!" Literally. And a show it will be!
This was great, thank you! It was a nice balance. On the one hand we got some stories about the history and the personal relationships in the company. On the other hand we got some good information about the development of the vehicle and the particulars of the drivetrain and so on. Go Aptera!!
Welcome back to Aptera Richard! There is clearly a LOT of work ahead to get the Aptera into production in 2025. I am really looking forward to the real-world testing results using the full 44kWh battery pack, and the 200HP EMR3 drivetrain. 😊
Good choice with the Vitesco EMR3 to get to production ASAP. I have no issues with that. Does the new drivetrain regen bring you to a full stop without brakes needed? What's the weight difference AWD in-wheel motor vs Vitesco EMR3?
"weight difference" of motors themselves and the complete install (ie, with different cabling, cooling, drive-shafts, etc.). Also expect different tires without heavy hubs?
My thumb in the air guess is removal of the rear IWM and related inverter saves about 50lb (thats what I put in my calculation sheet). I'm hoping they still have a disk brake on the rear which can assist in traction control.
It's a permanent magnet motor, so it's physically capable of it. First vehicles may have to wait on that for the software to be ready. This was the approach Tesla took with their first permanent magnet motor vehicle, the Model 3. I have to do some research, but based on the specs, this sounds like the same drive unit that's in the Chevy Bolt EV. If it is, then regen to zero is definitely possible. Also, for weight, simply moving the weight to the vehicle will improve ride and increase the longevity of the motor. You wouldn't believe the shock and vibration the wheel hubs take and how well suspension smooths that out.
Like the video. Glad for the input. As a launch edition reservation holder, I was thinking about holding off for all wheel drive. I am not going to change the configuration. I will still be going with the launch edition.
Thanks for the podcast!. Yes, keep doing them. As an engineer that has been involved with a number of projects of over the years, I am very cognizant of the idea of "Shoot the engineer and ship". Getting the vehicle to market near term is a must. If it hasn't started delivery in early 2025, Aptera is not going to happen. I am OK with two wheel drive to start with as I need another vehicle soon and can't wait 2 years to get it. Ship me the two wheel version NOW, but I really want the option to upgrade to all wheel drive when that is possible. The winter weather in SE Washington state is not as bad as other locations, things can get dicey here and the control of the 3rd wheel is an important consideration.
Aptera team, thank you for your transparency and also your willingness to make changes that benefit the customers and the company. I think it was a great idea to go with the 2 Wheel, off-the-shelf drivetrain for the launch edition from a proven motor manufacturer. As a retired automotive and aerospace engineer, I understand all too well, the compromises needed to make something happen. thanks again! Keep heading in the direction you’re going, hopefully as fast as you can :-)
Aptera, you are a company like no other and we support all that you stand for! Love the Podcast and your willingness to have CEOs and Engineers talk directly with us. I have lots of questions about the new drivetrain which I look forward to learning the answers to soon. Chris M. what a great job moderating! Thank you Steve and Richard for your hard development work!
I am much more interested in getting an efficient vehicle SOON than having in-wheel motors. My biggest regret in life is not getting in on the Accelerator program. (I was new to retirement, making an interstate move, and 10K just seemed like a big commitment in an uncertain financial situation.) I want my Aptera NOW!
Love the format of 3WPC; perfect blend of the pre-scripted updates and the off-the-hip walk around liveCast. Keep them coming. (PS even like the name, although it does put ChisMc in the seat of being the 3rd wheel. 😅 which I’m sure he doesn’t mind.)
Unfinished business must get done. There is a podcast named third wheel, I was waited there for this. Thank you for shedding light on the drive train. Being reliable, and robust is prime directive. Mixing rear wheel in wheel motors with a motor for front wheel drive, is different but interesting. I have lived in the Green Bay area and drove front wheel dive in heavy snow. I found it fine. Originally, I wanted 3-wheel drive, and torque vectoring, but like everyone else, I just want to drive my Aptera. Congratulations on the new pod-cast.
I am in the Port Washington area of Wi. We will have to get a Midwest annual meet up together when we have Apteras in our driveways. Would be a great way to gain knowledge about others experiences.
All,, successful entrepreneurs are able to pivot when necessary, people who insist on sticking steadfastly to original plans often fail. I’ve seen it in my own personal life and in others. I applaud Aptera for making plans in parallel
I'm ambivalent about a number of factors, but I have long been suspicious of in-wheel motor reliability. I'm quite happy about this change and I hope Aptera succeeds, honors right-to-repair, achieves effective cooling, and makes the vehicle available at a cost I can afford.
Bravo, Guys; I really appreciate the detailed info in this update - thanks! I'm quite relieved to find out that you've been planning to use the single-motor solution for long enough, that you've been able to integrate this design into the composite parts coming from CPC - obviously, the extreme fixed costs associated with the composite molds are a huge consideration. I've always wanted an all-wheel-drive powertrain, but only for increasing the vehicle's sporting driving-dynamics (I have no need for driving off-road, or in snow). Hopefully, you'll eventually be able to integrate a single in-wheel motor into the rear wheel, to make a 'Sport Aptera'! I know that this will be very costly (relative to ROI), but I truly believe that having a model that maximizes the 'fun-to-drive' factor, will open an entire new market for Aptera, and make a lot of died-in-the-wool ICE guys into 'true believers' - this could create an entire new cadre of 'brand ambassadors', that you could never get, otherwise...
What I like about Aptera is that they are so forthcoming with the details of development of the product. Most car companies keep things under blankets to tease their customers or when they do have a rolling chassis they paint it with camouflage to “hide the vehicle“ which I think is completely ridiculous. Kudos to Steve, Chris and their hard working team who has created the most amazing vehicle since Tesla’s Cybertruck.
You could do an empty to full test. Drive the car to very low battery and park it for some days till the solar charges it back to full. Investors would love to see this.
I think this was a perfect level of explanation regarding the drive train change. I dont think the car loses anything going from front hubs to a central motor, and knowing that it's been in the works for months is reassuring. As someone with no financial skin in the game, but sincere interest to buy one this is enough for me to continue considering one day purchasing an aptera. As a side note I think the idea of keeping the front central unit and just doing a hub motor in the rear sounds like the best way forward for AWD, signficantly reduced unsprung mass, and I assume easier maintenance and servicing of the front wheels.
We have lost quite a bit with this change. First of all we no longer will have the long touted torque vectoring. This is important in going around curves in the road and for times where one wheel loses traction. I have been saying since the beginning that the hub motors will have too much unsprung weight to make both the ride comfortable and the traction spot on. What exactly is Apteras goal. I wasn't too impressed when they took away the DC fast charging for I knew then that they do not understand long road trips. Why get the 1000 mile battery if it would take forever to charge it up? They should have followed Sandy Munro's advice of making small quantities first to test out the car and the publics remarks. Then go ahead and start mass production. All this change is wasted money now having to change direction. I am calculating that the cost of the vehicle will almost double due to this constant shift in goals. Forget any more metal molds, solar panels, and cooling modifications and get a production model on the road. You are already coming up to three years of your launch date in November.....late. What we have now is something like an Elio for close to $30k. I'd also recommend discussing these major shifts with shareholders. Now I understand why shareholders have no voting rights.
WTF, you're tripping hard, bro. Sandy never said start small. NEVER. He said that is how you bleed the company to death by a thousand cuts. He said, you plan for high volume from the start, then execute the plan as effecient and cost effective as possible. Arcimoto did not implement Sandys recommendations, and they barely have a pulse today. Aptera took everything Sandy said to heart, and have a winning chance at becoming cash flow positive in record time. Shareholders have no voting rights because the co-CEO's lost control of the cap table and that is why Aptera 1.0 failed. Now they are back and have learned a lesson or two. They are clearly passionate about the company goal, which is merely to have all your adventures powered by the sun. We have not lost anything but AWD, which is superflous in a tadpole setup anyways. By switching to a proven powertrain, Aptera has ensured I get my Accelerator Launch Edition sometime next year.
Just changed my option from AWD Launch Edition to FWD Launch Edition. I am hoping to move up the queue due to people holding out for AWD hub motors wise. Getting the production run started will simply bring forth the AWD in wheel hub motors sooner when Aptera begin to b ring in money for that to happen. AWD would be ideal for me but I see the need to get this vehicle to market sooner than later is of utmost importance for their survival. It will settle a whole lot of doubters. If they are not successful, I'd have to build my own. Won't be fun but retirement is around the corner for me.
As a proud investor I applaude the decision of making the move to ensure Aptera has a viable drivetrain in order to get the product out as soon as possible. That's what's called the Minimum Viable Product (MVP). And yes, the MVP doesn't require all wheel drive nor in-wheel motors. And I am sure future venture capital investors will also see it that way. Having said that, I would like to have an assessment on how much impact will have this powertrain change on the overall vehicle efficiency. Putting aside that a 2-wheel drive is more efficient than a 3-wheel drive vehicle, there will be efficiency losses due to having a transmission from the motor to the wheels, and there will also be aerodynamic efficiency losses because a new rod will be sticking out in the air stream on each side of the car (being the transmission rod to drive the front wheels). On the other hand, removing the in-wheel motors will reduce the unsuspended weight of the car, thus improving the driving dynamics of the vehicle. But at the same time, the suspension will have to be re-calibrated, a work that was done back with Beta in the case of Elaphe's in-wheel motors.
I was bummed to hear about the in-wheel motors being put on hold and I was tempted to push back my wait time for them. After this podcast and another video I feel more confident to keep my launch edition in place. I was worried about the in wheel motors reliability and I'm guessing that's probably why there's a hold up on production. Not saying they don't work, but the time it takes to test them to see how they hold up is probably the issue and a problem with those could be the end of Aptera. I like the idea of using the EMR3 drivetrain and the in-wheel for the single tire in the back, but again the wait time is probably not worth the extra control. I'm sure by the time they have it figured out and fully tested I would be ready for the 1000 miles version and at that time I would want all wheel drive. Great Podcast/Video. Great questions and a very well balanced pace. I'm looking forward to the next one.
I love this format! It lets interviewees really spill their mental beans! Maybe implement a segment of community questions that haven't been asked before so us in the AOC discord aren't the only ones getting answers to many questions.
Everything about Aptera excites me, and I'm proud to be a patron. But for what it's worth, even with your respectable logic and sales pitch for the new motor route, I STILL WANT THE HUB MOTORS sooo bad, I feel like a kid wishing for the coolest present for Christmas. I also hope for as much as possible to be manufactured here within the states. My profession is in architectural design, my hobbies revolve around DIY builds and tree hugging, so naturally I've been hooked on Aptera from the moment I read about it. Keep up the good work Aptera, and make the all-wheel drive hub motors destine to be - that's when I'll buy my first Aptera! 😎👍
AWD and Heat Pump are ultimately too important to me regardless of how irrational that is. i don't really mind if thats with e-axle and belt/chain drive, but all corners being powered is a big deal to me, but to be fair i'm not gonna be a customer for another half decade. if you have a very good trade in program, i think everyone will be happy to start with a FWD Aptera. the stability is very cool.
The solution proposed by Aptera is undoubtedly the right one: most people do not realize the waste of energy caused by unsuitable vehicles, examples of the efficiency of light and very aerodynamic vehicles are numerous and not recent than that, because the GM EV1 was already in this case just like the first generation Honda Insight hybrid (1999-2006). Are also examples of thermal vehicles like the Loremo project (germany) which failed due to lack of funding and even a prototype built by a British, based on a Citroën Dyane 6 chassis modified into 3 wheels (like the Aptera) with an ultra aerodynamic body in glued laminated wood: in this configuration and with the original 32hp 2cyl. air cooled engine and a gearbox with an extended ratio, the top speed increased from 120km/h to 160km/h while the average consumption fell by 40%!
Living in Minnesota, with the winter weather we receive, I was really looking forward to an AWD Aptera. However, "things" happen, so I fully stand by this new drivetrain decision. It's what's best for the company, and what's best for us reservation holders. Thank you guys for this podcast. Cool name BTW. Hopefully this is a new regular thing, I really enjoy hearing from you guys.
I have not yet heard what the how often the traction control senses slip and reacts. I am eager to find out. I suspect it will not be as good, but still usable. Since I live in Iowa, I will have a chance to find out for sure.
Im looking forward to the Aptera. I'm replacing a Can Am Spyder with it. Im way down on the list for the launch edition, but I look forward to updating my three wheeler to something that is economical and fun to drive.
I'm on the wait list for the Aptera but wasn't sold on the launch edition as I wanted the 600 mile battery on 2 wheel drive. This change to the drive system seems more interesting to me as its reduction to unsprung mass is going to produce a quieter more comfortable ride. I might be able to do the lower range but it's harder to sell it as a gas replacement with that lower range and the long distance driving I want to do with it would be more of a pain. My other gripe that might be a dealbreaker, is the lack of buttons!!! I'm so mad that they listened to the supposed industry experts who advised they strip it of buttons and move it all to software. An off the shelf turn signal with windows and shifting should be the bare minimum to be on mechanical buttons. I don't care if they don't put them on the door just put them on a panel under the screen or something so all the buttons are one part but please add buttons!!!
Another thought. I'm not particularly bothered by the drive train change although I really do love the in wheel motors. It makes sense because as a startup the current choice is making a reliable vehicle that is incredibly efficient and simple. I could feasibly see being on a launch edition. My configuration choices did not support an LE, but it's attractive to pick IMO
Wow! This is awesome Aptera. The Third wheel podcast was incredible with lots of information that us, as the community, have questions that are answered. Excellent job MC'ing it Chris M. It was a pleasure to meet Richard and hear about his past connection with Aptera. How could they not hire you after you bring a functional 3 wheeler to the shop :) It's always a pleasure hearing from Steve and Chris A. Thanks Steve for the excitement in your voice about the performance of the Aptera with the EMR3 power train. I already want to "Soup it Up" somehow. One thing I really want in my Aptera is the "Launch Mode", please, please, please let that make it in the Launch Edition. I can't wait to hear about the Solar performance in the real world testing, it's closer to me than I would know 🤪. I am subscribed to the Third Wheel Podcast and can't wait to hear all the new ones in the future soon.
I would like to know if the third wheel motor could be added by the customer at a later date? I will still be ready to buy I have the funds from the SOLO I turned back in. I'm hopeful if is as fun as the SOLO it may be better because it seats two . heated seats would be nice you do not have to use the heat as much an save battery power .
I have the fund from my Solo return also. I have the money just sitting in the bank waiting to be contacted by Aptera stating that my Aptera is ready for delivery.
"What would ya say...ya do here? I'm a people person!!!!" - Office Space, 1999 Hilarious for many of us, right over the head for Chris and many others of us... 🤣 Why does it seem like there are more and more young people every year?! The generational gaps across society is really fascinating, and this coming together of hard-earned wisdom (Seve), youthful creativity (Chris), and well-developed skills (Richard) really demonstrates how Aptera (and specifically Steve and Chris A.) have orchestrated a project which already literally spans generations, and must continue to offer timeless solutions as we continue to build our way through long-term social movements. Funny AF, and as inspiring as the Undiscovered itself...
Definitly buying one, but I live in Denmark, som im thinking it will at least take a couple of years before it is sold in Denmark (Europe)... Been following Aptera for some years now, always interesting to follow... Keep up the good work👌😀
I hope you own enough private land to drive it on as it's not road legal in Europe. Class L5e restricts the width to 2000mm; the Aptera is 2225mm, that's wider than a Hummvee.
@@Okurka. I know it is not yet Legal in Europe, but I still recon/hope the process of legalisering the Aptera within the EU will happen during the course of the next couple of years🤞
@@Okurka. Generally in the EU there are more focus on the environment then in the US, and therefore i find it plausible that the folks in the EU would be more favorable in changing the legal obstacles. At least I hope that this is the case😉 Furthermore i recon that it would be a winner case for politicians in the EU to make the Aptera legal in the EU, again with argument that it is better for the environment than other alternatives. Just my opinion.
@@KrestenMadsen Generally in Europe there is more focus on safety than in the US, that's why there's a width restriction on a vehicle that doesn't have to pass automotive safety tests.
I quoted production tooling for your first go round. I was crushed to get both my deposits back. I’m excited to get mine on my drive way soon. I saw the production intent body at 2024 Long Beach SAMPE and knew my Aptera is becoming a reality. As an Aerospace engineer, I love the sandwich structure approach but compression molding is right for high production. Still, my first choice was not the 400 mi. range. I have that with my S. I'd love it if somehow Aptera makes it so that you can add a module to increase range like.... dare I say it? The Cyber Truck.I hate stopping on road trips from Stockton to San Diego...450 door to door. I just want to charge when I get to my destination.
Richard's return is a testament to the core values, mission, & vision of Aptera. It should also help with all the followers' anxiety.
And his laptop has a 50" screen. Cool.
Agreed!
@@santanumaitra3962 based on the story as presented in the podcast, he has no previous drivetrain development experience. I found it very worrisome that he's in charge of implementing something so critical. This might be something that should be contracted out like they did the suspension.
@@thisisme379 I trust the trust Steve, Chris A and others have put in him. They would not let anybody screw up "their baby" for which they took so much risk and effort.
Additionally if one only trusts people with challenges that mastered the same before, where are the development opportunities for new, really great folks?
@@thisisme379 Yeah they should have hired someone who's been engineering experimental, commercial, and consumer electric and hybrid vehicles for the past 20+ years. And ordered powertrain parts from a company thats been making drivetrains and other car parts for over 100 years. Oh wait... they did.
I was sad when it was first announced that in-wheel motors wouldn't be on the Launch Edition, but I'm feeling better about it once I read that the EMR3 has already been used so extensively and is a proven technology. In honor of CPC, Forza Aptera!
I'm very excited for the FWD decision. I'm a snow area driver who agrees with 2 wheel drive plus snow tires argument. I currently drive a Jetta. I'm also highly encouraged by the movement away from perfection paralysis. Get the "not a car company" into production!! So we can drive from empty to full!!!!
“Perfection is the enemy of Progress.” - Winston Churchill. Kudos on your progress! Excitement elevated 🎉
I think you guys came up with the perfect Aptera slogan by accident “Drive from empty to full”
You'd have to drive really slow for a long time to achieve that.
@@Okurka. lol, I'm not sure you could drive slow enough. But, I'm excited for the inevitable you tube videos showing people attempting this! 😂
@@brianrosenlof388 Technically they can't start the vehicle when it's empty so they wouldn't go anywhere.
It's an empty slogan that got 21 likes; says a lot about their bright customers.
@@Okurka.Does a slogan have to be technically true?
@@ronfarnsworth7074 Yes, otherwise it's a lie.
I Love the excitement and I know Steve , Chris , Richard and everybody at Aptera are going to have the most fun once the PI 3 & 4 are done because they get to drive them around ! I am ready to get my Aptera NOW so I can shoe it off to everyone in my neighborhood , That's going to be so AWESOME , LET'S GO APTERA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😎
I can see the wisdom of the motor change. Looking forward to watching the testing phase. Thanks for the videos.
Thank You for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste .. 🙏🏻 😊 ✌ ☮ ❤
Great podcast guys!!! Keep 'Em coming!!
Since I reserved the 2WD | 25KW Luna with full solar I'm not to stressed about the elimination of AWD.
In fact, I'm more comfortable with the transition to an inboard motor to power the front wheels. Vitesco is a proven drive train with no supply chain issues and it sounds like the EMR 3 will be plenty powerful. We also don't have to worry about unsprung weight that some folks were worried about.
It sounds like the Elaphe in-wheel motors needed much more development time than Aptera anticipated so the transition to Vitesco was necessary to deliver the Launch Edition in 2025.
I believe the drive train solution was the right one. This change might be as impactful as the switch to CPC and a carbon fiber body.
Kudos to Aptera for making some gutsy decisions on the design of the most efficient vehicle on the planet... with ot without in-wheel motors!!
I got introduced to Aptera back in 2007 while in college too. I would have loved one of those early hybrids. I was heartbroken when they originally folded and I was thrilled at their resurrection.
Thank you for the podcast and the reminder that what you are doing is not easy.
Thank you so much! Waited all day for this vid lol! 3rd wheel podcast is already a thing by the way.
Thanks so much for starting this series!
I can certainly live with the new powertrain change , not unhappy at all !
Excellent update! Very much appreciated! More Richard is a must!
After my initial disappointed at the change to a central drivetrain, I now feel reassured. Thanks for doing this show.
At this point, Aptera has one foot in the grave and one across the finish line. Critics saying Aptera are being idiots fir changes made, clearly have never brought a production vehicle to market, let alone one that departs from traditional designs.
Glad to see Aptera management trying to reach out to the community and try to help people see why Aptera will not be a Fisker. I feel bad for those who paid tens of thousands for something that will be a pain to keep going and has no company to back the product.
Please keep doing as many podcasts/RUclips channels as possible. I get it can be a pain to find time for it, but the public needs to see Aptera management.
Have you ever heard a scammer say they're a scammer?
Lucid just got another $1.5 billion from UAE.
@@artsmith103 That was Lucid that got the 1.5 billion.
@@kevtheobald Thanks, I fixed it.
I really like this, you should definitely do more of these videos.
Looking Forward to getting DATA, DATES, and PRICING....keep it going y'all. Like most, I too am fine with the drive change as long as it is reliable AND cost effective all the way to the purchase price.
40.000 $
Thoroughly enjoyed this podcast. Informative and interesting. Looking forward to more. Thanks guys!
Being a Canadian and also both an investor and reservation holder, I WILL wait for my All Wheel Drive/ Off roader/ 1000 km version. The main reason why i ordered that configuration is
* Canadian Winters (yes we also use Snow tires, it is mandatory for us)
* the reason for the 1000 km battery, is taking into consideration the range loss from cold weather.
Anyway, thanks Aptera team for the transparency. Much appreciated !!!
Are you from Quebec? I don't know of any other provinces where snows are mandatory. But yeah, the range loss in cold weather and the advised 80% full charge can really reduce mileage. I think the 600 mile version should work for me.
@@Randy-J We require them in BC for most highways. Realistically not having them is risking your life on many winter passes. That said 400 miles is still tons even with winter losses.
Vermont USA here and same. I'm not 100% convinced the all wheel make a big difference, since I've always been fine with front wheel drive, but I wanted it because I don't know how it will handle. I think the off-road wheel covers are going to be necessary for driving in snow.
A lot of people think they need AWD, when they dont! You must have some very steep unplowed roads to drive up!?
@@jeremyrom Coming from the mountains in Vermont I'm always amused when I talk to someone from New Jersey or Virginia that is convinced they need all wheel drive. The marketing has been effective.
Richards a great engineer. Glad to see this get some PR.
This is awesome guys! Highly recommend doing more of them just to answer questions and allay concerns.
This is an excelent way to keep people in the loop. Keep it up.
Thanks you Aptera, you’re the pinnacle of vehicle makers and information sharing,this is truly exciting
We appreciate your support! 💚
Couldn’t agree more!!
I'm happy with the drivetrain change. I had several reservations about the in-wheel motors. I'll gladly give up torque vectoring for reliability since stability control (oversteer/understeer) can use the brakes instead.
I actually wanted a front wheel drive version, so maybe I will scoot up the list a little.
It’s too bad the in wheel motors aren’t ready to go yet, but I think using them for the rear wheel is a good way to get started when they are ready.
While I was initially disappointed about the IWM not being used for the initial production, I can understand their reasoning and advantages with the inboard motor. I really enjoyed this video and looking forward to getting my LE Aptera!
Five stages of grief: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance.
THANKS APTERA 🙏💚💚💚
Well I was a little worried when I heard about the change of drive train, But now I feel excited that were still going to get our Aptera's, and now they can boost the first additions will truly be collectors item once they switch back to the hub motors. This new drive train will be a collector's limited-edition dream. Now if you will excuse me I need to go add some more mothballs to my Star Trek Uniform until it's time to command my new ground shuttlecraft, sorry my new Aptera.🚀🛸
Excellent podcast. I like the style and the content. Easy flow of the conversation and moderate intensity information with a touch of humor. All good.
we love it, do more podcasts like this. You guys didn't really say much about the reasons for ditching in-wheel motors, but I believe you that it was the best choice for the launch version. "you can only innovate so much, but eventually you gotta launch it". Maybe next time the podcast discussion can go even deeper into technological decisions. thank you.
Can't wait to get mine!
Welcome back, Richard!
I loved it! Do more! But get Richard back to work! In the immortal words of AOC Steve... "Let's get this show on the road!" Literally. And a show it will be!
This was great, thank you! It was a nice balance. On the one hand we got some stories about the history and the personal relationships in the company. On the other hand we got some good information about the development of the vehicle and the particulars of the drivetrain and so on. Go Aptera!!
Welcome back to Aptera Richard! There is clearly a LOT of work ahead to get the Aptera into production in 2025. I am really looking forward to the real-world testing results using the full 44kWh battery pack, and the 200HP EMR3 drivetrain. 😊
Their Aptera Motors Investor Presentation states on page 7 that production starts in 2024.
That "production" might just be in the form of PI builds.
I liked the format. I’m ok with the initial FWD model. I’ll change my reservation to LE to hold my place in line. Thanks all!
An OUTSTANDING talk. I am so in on this.
Good choice with the Vitesco EMR3 to get to production ASAP. I have no issues with that.
Does the new drivetrain regen bring you to a full stop without brakes needed?
What's the weight difference AWD in-wheel motor vs Vitesco EMR3?
"weight difference" of motors themselves and the complete install (ie, with different cabling, cooling, drive-shafts, etc.). Also expect different tires without heavy hubs?
My thumb in the air guess is removal of the rear IWM and related inverter saves about 50lb (thats what I put in my calculation sheet). I'm hoping they still have a disk brake on the rear which can assist in traction control.
@@RajGiandeep good questions. I'm particularly curious how this affects regen braking.
It's a permanent magnet motor, so it's physically capable of it. First vehicles may have to wait on that for the software to be ready. This was the approach Tesla took with their first permanent magnet motor vehicle, the Model 3.
I have to do some research, but based on the specs, this sounds like the same drive unit that's in the Chevy Bolt EV. If it is, then regen to zero is definitely possible. Also, for weight, simply moving the weight to the vehicle will improve ride and increase the longevity of the motor. You wouldn't believe the shock and vibration the wheel hubs take and how well suspension smooths that out.
It's great listening to your thought process on this is good
Like the video. Glad for the input. As a launch edition reservation holder, I was thinking about holding off for all wheel drive. I am not going to change the configuration. I will still be going with the launch edition.
Great details! Thank you Chris M!
Thanks for the podcast!. Yes, keep doing them. As an engineer that has been involved with a number of projects of over the years, I am very cognizant of the idea of "Shoot the engineer and ship". Getting the vehicle to market near term is a must. If it hasn't started delivery in early 2025, Aptera is not going to happen. I am OK with two wheel drive to start with as I need another vehicle soon and can't wait 2 years to get it. Ship me the two wheel version NOW, but I really want the option to upgrade to all wheel drive when that is possible. The winter weather in SE Washington state is not as bad as other locations, things can get dicey here and the control of the 3rd wheel is an important consideration.
Love it that the team are looking at the "bang for the buck" and are not getting stuck on just one solution. Enjoyed the podcast.
Awesome! It’s finally out 🎉
🎉
What did I miss??😂😂😂😂
Aptera team, thank you for your transparency and also your willingness to make changes that benefit the customers and the company. I think it was a great idea to go with the 2 Wheel, off-the-shelf drivetrain for the launch edition from a proven motor manufacturer. As a retired automotive and aerospace engineer, I understand all too well, the compromises needed to make something happen. thanks again! Keep heading in the direction you’re going, hopefully as fast as you can :-)
Thanks for the info guys, can't wait to get my Aptera soon. you have allayed my concerns in the vehical and thats big in my book.
Aptera, you are a company like no other and we support all that you stand for! Love the Podcast and your willingness to have CEOs and Engineers talk directly with us. I have lots of questions about the new drivetrain which I look forward to learning the answers to soon. Chris M. what a great job moderating! Thank you Steve and Richard for your hard development work!
I originally wanted front wheel drive, but changed to all wheel drive to get my Aptera more quickly. Thus, this change works well for me.
I love tis format and the talk. Thank you!
Aptera is becoming now quickly also a real thing for the public roads allover the globe!
🌞💪 FTW!
I am much more interested in getting an efficient vehicle SOON than having in-wheel motors. My biggest regret in life is not getting in on the Accelerator program. (I was new to retirement, making an interstate move, and 10K just seemed like a big commitment in an uncertain financial situation.) I want my Aptera NOW!
Love the format of 3WPC; perfect blend of the pre-scripted updates and the off-the-hip walk around liveCast. Keep them coming. (PS even like the name, although it does put ChisMc in the seat of being the 3rd wheel. 😅 which I’m sure he doesn’t mind.)
Keep pushing forward and get the Aptera into production - Go Aptera!
More 3rd wheel keep this going even after launch please!
We love this. Thanks. (Also, stupid excited for our vehicle!)
Unfinished business must get done. There is a podcast named third wheel, I was waited there for this. Thank you for shedding light on the drive train. Being reliable, and robust is prime directive. Mixing rear wheel in wheel motors with a motor for front wheel drive, is different but interesting. I have lived in the Green Bay area and drove front wheel dive in heavy snow. I found it fine. Originally, I wanted 3-wheel drive, and torque vectoring, but like everyone else, I just want to drive my Aptera. Congratulations on the new pod-cast.
I am in the Port Washington area of Wi. We will have to get a Midwest annual meet up together when we have Apteras in our driveways. Would be a great way to gain knowledge about others experiences.
All,, successful entrepreneurs are able to pivot when necessary, people who insist on sticking steadfastly to original plans often fail. I’ve seen it in my own personal life and in others. I applaud Aptera for making plans in parallel
I'm ambivalent about a number of factors, but I have long been suspicious of in-wheel motor reliability. I'm quite happy about this change and I hope Aptera succeeds, honors right-to-repair, achieves effective cooling, and makes the vehicle available at a cost I can afford.
I so look forward to your release. It's been a long time coming and it is well deserved. I wish you all much success.
Finally. Discussion of noise vibration and handling (NVH) simulation. Well done, and
Charge on!
Bravo, Guys; I really appreciate the detailed info in this update - thanks! I'm quite relieved to find out that you've been planning to use the single-motor solution for long enough, that you've been able to integrate this design into the composite parts coming from CPC - obviously, the extreme fixed costs associated with the composite molds are a huge consideration. I've always wanted an all-wheel-drive powertrain, but only for increasing the vehicle's sporting driving-dynamics (I have no need for driving off-road, or in snow). Hopefully, you'll eventually be able to integrate a single in-wheel motor into the rear wheel, to make a 'Sport Aptera'! I know that this will be very costly (relative to ROI), but I truly believe that having a model that maximizes the 'fun-to-drive' factor, will open an entire new market for Aptera, and make a lot of died-in-the-wool ICE guys into 'true believers' - this could create an entire new cadre of 'brand ambassadors', that you could never get, otherwise...
What I like about Aptera is that they are so forthcoming with the details of development of the product. Most car companies keep things under blankets to tease their customers or when they do have a rolling chassis they paint it with camouflage to “hide the vehicle“ which I think is completely ridiculous.
Kudos to Steve, Chris and their hard working team who has created the most amazing vehicle since Tesla’s Cybertruck.
You could do an empty to full test. Drive the car to very low battery and park it for some days till the solar charges it back to full. Investors would love to see this.
Great podcast, thank you 👍
I think this was a perfect level of explanation regarding the drive train change. I dont think the car loses anything going from front hubs to a central motor, and knowing that it's been in the works for months is reassuring. As someone with no financial skin in the game, but sincere interest to buy one this is enough for me to continue considering one day purchasing an aptera.
As a side note I think the idea of keeping the front central unit and just doing a hub motor in the rear sounds like the best way forward for AWD, signficantly reduced unsprung mass, and I assume easier maintenance and servicing of the front wheels.
We have lost quite a bit with this change. First of all we no longer will have the long touted torque vectoring. This is important in going around curves in the road and for times where one wheel loses traction. I have been saying since the beginning that the hub motors will have too much unsprung weight to make both the ride comfortable and the traction spot on. What exactly is Apteras goal. I wasn't too impressed when they took away the DC fast charging for I knew then that they do not understand long road trips. Why get the 1000 mile battery if it would take forever to charge it up? They should have followed Sandy Munro's advice of making small quantities first to test out the car and the publics remarks. Then go ahead and start mass production. All this change is wasted money now having to change direction. I am calculating that the cost of the vehicle will almost double due to this constant shift in goals. Forget any more metal molds, solar panels, and cooling modifications and get a production model on the road. You are already coming up to three years of your launch date in November.....late. What we have now is something like an Elio for close to $30k. I'd also recommend discussing these major shifts with shareholders. Now I understand why shareholders have no voting rights.
WTF, you're tripping hard, bro. Sandy never said start small. NEVER. He said that is how you bleed the company to death by a thousand cuts. He said, you plan for high volume from the start, then execute the plan as effecient and cost effective as possible. Arcimoto did not implement Sandys recommendations, and they barely have a pulse today. Aptera took everything Sandy said to heart, and have a winning chance at becoming cash flow positive in record time.
Shareholders have no voting rights because the co-CEO's lost control of the cap table and that is why Aptera 1.0 failed. Now they are back and have learned a lesson or two. They are clearly passionate about the company goal, which is merely to have all your adventures powered by the sun.
We have not lost anything but AWD, which is superflous in a tadpole setup anyways. By switching to a proven powertrain, Aptera has ensured I get my Accelerator Launch Edition sometime next year.
@@barnabasseadog7660 True...you will get a motorcycle, but nothing like what you were initially promised.
Just changed my option from AWD Launch Edition to FWD Launch Edition. I am hoping to move up the queue due to people holding out for AWD hub motors wise. Getting the production run started will simply bring forth the AWD in wheel hub motors sooner when Aptera begin to b ring in money for that to happen. AWD would be ideal for me but I see the need to get this vehicle to market sooner than later is of utmost importance for their survival. It will settle a whole lot of doubters.
If they are not successful, I'd have to build my own. Won't be fun but retirement is around the corner for me.
Are there implications for the axle driven wheel pants like maybe increased ice building as the wheels do not emit same heat like IWM?
Iterative design in action!
Best change decision made yet!!
As a proud investor I applaude the decision of making the move to ensure Aptera has a viable drivetrain in order to get the product out as soon as possible. That's what's called the Minimum Viable Product (MVP). And yes, the MVP doesn't require all wheel drive nor in-wheel motors. And I am sure future venture capital investors will also see it that way.
Having said that, I would like to have an assessment on how much impact will have this powertrain change on the overall vehicle efficiency. Putting aside that a 2-wheel drive is more efficient than a 3-wheel drive vehicle, there will be efficiency losses due to having a transmission from the motor to the wheels, and there will also be aerodynamic efficiency losses because a new rod will be sticking out in the air stream on each side of the car (being the transmission rod to drive the front wheels).
On the other hand, removing the in-wheel motors will reduce the unsuspended weight of the car, thus improving the driving dynamics of the vehicle. But at the same time, the suspension will have to be re-calibrated, a work that was done back with Beta in the case of Elaphe's in-wheel motors.
I was bummed to hear about the in-wheel motors being put on hold and I was tempted to push back my wait time for them. After this podcast and another video I feel more confident to keep my launch edition in place. I was worried about the in wheel motors reliability and I'm guessing that's probably why there's a hold up on production. Not saying they don't work, but the time it takes to test them to see how they hold up is probably the issue and a problem with those could be the end of Aptera. I like the idea of using the EMR3 drivetrain and the in-wheel for the single tire in the back, but again the wait time is probably not worth the extra control. I'm sure by the time they have it figured out and fully tested I would be ready for the 1000 miles version and at that time I would want all wheel drive.
Great Podcast/Video. Great questions and a very well balanced pace. I'm looking forward to the next one.
I love this format! It lets interviewees really spill their mental beans! Maybe implement a segment of community questions that haven't been asked before so us in the AOC discord aren't the only ones getting answers to many questions.
Everything about Aptera excites me, and I'm proud to be a patron. But for what it's worth, even with your respectable logic and sales pitch for the new motor route, I STILL WANT THE HUB MOTORS sooo bad, I feel like a kid wishing for the coolest present for Christmas. I also hope for as much as possible to be manufactured here within the states. My profession is in architectural design, my hobbies revolve around DIY builds and tree hugging, so naturally I've been hooked on Aptera from the moment I read about it. Keep up the good work Aptera, and make the all-wheel drive hub motors destine to be - that's when I'll buy my first Aptera! 😎👍
AWD and Heat Pump are ultimately too important to me regardless of how irrational that is. i don't really mind if thats with e-axle and belt/chain drive, but all corners being powered is a big deal to me, but to be fair i'm not gonna be a customer for another half decade. if you have a very good trade in program, i think everyone will be happy to start with a FWD Aptera. the stability is very cool.
When will the all-wheel drive aptera launch?
Sad about losing the in wheel motors and the three way torque vectoring but, having said that...I WANT MY APTERA!!!
The solution proposed by Aptera is undoubtedly the right one: most people do not realize the waste of energy caused by unsuitable vehicles, examples of the efficiency of light and very aerodynamic vehicles are numerous and not recent than that, because the GM EV1 was already in this case just like the first generation Honda Insight hybrid (1999-2006). Are also examples of thermal vehicles like the Loremo project (germany) which failed due to lack of funding and even a prototype built by a British, based on a Citroën Dyane 6 chassis modified into 3 wheels (like the Aptera) with an ultra aerodynamic body in glued laminated wood: in this configuration and with the original 32hp 2cyl. air cooled engine and a gearbox with an extended ratio, the top speed increased from 120km/h to 160km/h while the average consumption fell by 40%!
I would add a table and some Shure SM7B’s. Thanks for the update.
Very cool. Thanks. Do more.
Living in Minnesota, with the winter weather we receive, I was really looking forward to an AWD Aptera. However, "things" happen, so I fully stand by this new drivetrain decision. It's what's best for the company, and what's best for us reservation holders. Thank you guys for this podcast. Cool name BTW. Hopefully this is a new regular thing, I really enjoy hearing from you guys.
Will it have the same level of traction control for snow and ice?
No it will NOT!
I have not yet heard what the how often the traction control senses slip and reacts. I am eager to find out. I suspect it will not be as good, but still usable. Since I live in Iowa, I will have a chance to find out for sure.
APTERA lets do this. I know it will work good with two wheel drive as well. Soon upgrade able to three wheel drive.
Im looking forward to the Aptera. I'm replacing a Can Am Spyder with it. Im way down on the list for the launch edition, but I look forward to updating my three wheeler to something that is economical and fun to drive.
❤❤❤ I am so excited for my Aptera and get more and more excited every day!!
What about the elefant in the room.
Does the inboard motor compete with cabin space?
No. It almost seems as if the nose was designed originally to hold the motor/inverter/transmission package from the start.
I'm on the wait list for the Aptera but wasn't sold on the launch edition as I wanted the 600 mile battery on 2 wheel drive. This change to the drive system seems more interesting to me as its reduction to unsprung mass is going to produce a quieter more comfortable ride. I might be able to do the lower range but it's harder to sell it as a gas replacement with that lower range and the long distance driving I want to do with it would be more of a pain.
My other gripe that might be a dealbreaker, is the lack of buttons!!! I'm so mad that they listened to the supposed industry experts who advised they strip it of buttons and move it all to software. An off the shelf turn signal with windows and shifting should be the bare minimum to be on mechanical buttons. I don't care if they don't put them on the door just put them on a panel under the screen or something so all the buttons are one part but please add buttons!!!
The gear selectors will be buttons, and the AC will have finger adjustable vents.
Another thought. I'm not particularly bothered by the drive train change although I really do love the in wheel motors. It makes sense because as a startup the current choice is making a reliable vehicle that is incredibly efficient and simple. I could feasibly see being on a launch edition. My configuration choices did not support an LE, but it's attractive to pick IMO
Will the differential be limited slip?
Wow! This is awesome Aptera. The Third wheel podcast was incredible with lots of information that us, as the community, have questions that are answered. Excellent job MC'ing it Chris M. It was a pleasure to meet Richard and hear about his past connection with Aptera. How could they not hire you after you bring a functional 3 wheeler to the shop :) It's always a pleasure hearing from Steve and Chris A. Thanks Steve for the excitement in your voice about the performance of the Aptera with the EMR3 power train. I already want to "Soup it Up" somehow. One thing I really want in my Aptera is the "Launch Mode", please, please, please let that make it in the Launch Edition. I can't wait to hear about the Solar performance in the real world testing, it's closer to me than I would know 🤪. I am subscribed to the Third Wheel Podcast and can't wait to hear all the new ones in the future soon.
What are the tradeoffs of the drivetrain switcheroo? handling? efficiency? rollover?
Loved it!
8:30 Drivetrain talk starts
(add your own timestamps for other sections)
I would like to know if the third wheel motor could be added by the customer at a later date?
I will still be ready to buy I have the funds from the SOLO I turned back in.
I'm hopeful if is as fun as the SOLO it may be better because it seats two .
heated seats would be nice you do not have to use the heat as much an save battery power .
I have the fund from my Solo return also. I have the money just sitting in the bank waiting to be contacted by Aptera stating that my Aptera is ready for delivery.
Thank you for finally meeting Richard, Chris!
Yea, 🙃, it might have been nice if he said something like, "we have been on a first name basis and I don't even know your last name", just as a cover!
"What would ya say...ya do here?
I'm a people person!!!!" - Office Space, 1999
Hilarious for many of us, right over the head for Chris and many others of us... 🤣 Why does it seem like there are more and more young people every year?!
The generational gaps across society is really fascinating, and this coming together of hard-earned wisdom (Seve), youthful creativity (Chris), and well-developed skills (Richard) really demonstrates how Aptera (and specifically Steve and Chris A.) have orchestrated a project which already literally spans generations, and must continue to offer timeless solutions as we continue to build our way through long-term social movements. Funny AF, and as inspiring as the Undiscovered itself...
Definitly buying one, but I live in Denmark, som im thinking it will at least take a couple of years before it is sold in Denmark (Europe)...
Been following Aptera for some years now, always interesting to follow...
Keep up the good work👌😀
I hope you own enough private land to drive it on as it's not road legal in Europe.
Class L5e restricts the width to 2000mm; the Aptera is 2225mm, that's wider than a Hummvee.
@@Okurka. I know it is not yet Legal in Europe, but I still recon/hope the process of legalisering the Aptera within the EU will happen during the course of the next couple of years🤞
@@KrestenMadsen It won't.
Why would *Europe* change their laws for a small US startup that designed a vehicle that's too wide?
@@Okurka. Generally in the EU there are more focus on the environment then in the US, and therefore i find it plausible that the folks in the EU would be more favorable in changing the legal obstacles. At least I hope that this is the case😉 Furthermore i recon that it would be a winner case for politicians in the EU to make the Aptera legal in the EU, again with argument that it is better for the environment than other alternatives. Just my opinion.
@@KrestenMadsen Generally in Europe there is more focus on safety than in the US, that's why there's a width restriction on a vehicle that doesn't have to pass automotive safety tests.
This video and many others are the reason I believe in Aptera and everyone who works there!
I quoted production tooling for your first go round. I was crushed to get both my deposits back.
I’m excited to get mine on my drive way soon.
I saw the production intent body at 2024 Long Beach SAMPE and knew my Aptera is becoming a reality.
As an Aerospace engineer, I love the sandwich structure approach but compression molding is right for high production.
Still, my first choice was not the 400 mi. range. I have that with my S. I'd love it if somehow Aptera makes it so that you can add a module to increase range like.... dare I say it? The Cyber Truck.I hate stopping on road trips from Stockton to San Diego...450 door to door. I just want to charge when I get to my destination.
The Third Wheel podcast is like the Wil Wheaton / Star Trek podcast but EV discussions, cool!