Lecture - Edward Fudge - The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of Hell
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- Опубликовано: 23 окт 2011
- This is from The Lanier Library Lecture Series titled The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment by Edward Fudge given Sep 24, 2011. The lecture was limited to 800 persons and was closed off several weeks beforehand. It was attended by a broad spectrum of folks on this issue yet the lecture was warmly received by all.
Around the world today, evangelical Bible scholars are giving hell a serious second look. Would the God who gave his Son to die for sinners finally keep billions of them alive forever to torment them without end? Does Holy Scripture require such a conclusion-or offer a different vision? The story of how the great majority of Christians came to teach unending conscious torment is as fascinating as any mystery or "Who-done-it." In this lecture, Edward Fudge will identify scores of generally-overlooked Scriptures, then lead a tour through some paths of church history that are less well travelled, and which are haunted by pagan philosophy, medieval law and Reformation politics.
For more infomation on the Lanier Theological Library: www.laniertheologicallibrary.org/
One of my favorite things about "The Fire That Consumes" is the way Mr. Fudge writes his footnotes. They are so gracious, kind, Christ-like and personal, just as he was in this presentation. In this speach, Mr. Fudge gave an amazingly full overview of his book, but if you are interested in gaining a full appreciation of both what the Biblical witness on this topic is, as well as a Mr. Fudge's excellent scholarship, I highly recommend the 3rd edition of his book.
yes Edward is very even handed. the trait of a true scholar great comment.
Being dead forever and ever IS an infinite punishment. Thank you Mr. Fudge.
But nothing says we are dead for ever. What it does says is eternal torment where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth where the worm dieth not. I guess the people die and cease to exist but the worms don’t 🤔. So you live a sinful life and mock and disrespect God and get thrown in a consuming fire only to cease to exist. Lol. How foolish. People get caught up on the how could a loving God do such a thing but they fail to realize the people do it. The people chose it. God has went to supernatural lengths to save us from this! Be strong in the lord. Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God. Read and study. This is the most important work you could ever do with your life is learn about God and help snatch others from the fire.
not when compared to eternal fire. also death in scripture isn't annihilation. it's physical death in the OT and eternal fire in the NT. read your bible. your emotions do not determine what is true
@@realtruthseeker521People do not choose to be tortured forever, it is god who send them there. And it is god who truly deserves to be wiped out of existence for god’s cruelty but the Bible is just a fairy tale, just saying if the Bible is true.
@@kingcorwin1006 if you know that’s the result then it’s your choice.
@@kingcorwin1006 I choose to not go there.
My father died unsaved I’m so glad to hear he will be punished for what he did and then he will be put out of his misery I can function again as a human being and it makes me love God more God is just he will not let people suffer endlessly so grateful for Dr. fudge
@Nok Ko I know these are deep questions but God said to Job where were you when I laid the foundations of the world? God bless Nok Ko
Always for give those who persicute you very important. matthew 6:12
Fire eventually goes out when the fuel is consumed- Sodom and Gomorrah experienced hell fire but they are not burning today.
Eternal fire means: the results of the fire last forever ( sin and sinners to be no more)
Perhaps the remaining fire a memorial to the wicked? A reminder…
Wrong
Edward Fudge is one of very few humble and loving brothers in the Christian world I know, his teaching on this subject is by far the best researched and documented, I have nothing but admiration for such a brother, I pray God raises up more like him.
+Andrew Kanonik amen
Well said, Andrew!
Hi Andrew I just read your post now from 1 year ago,. I just wanted to give you another gentleman that I feel you may like. He is Jorg Gilsmann or juggler66.
humbly...allan
he did his own research. It was the bible and not some denomination that convinced Edward the view he had been taught was faulty.
Watch the movie "Hell and Mr Fudge" or watch my video "Edward Fudge - My life story - Psalms 71" they both cover His story well. My Life Story has less artistic license than does the movie. But Edward and I highly recommend the movie because even where artistic license was taken it still rings true. Here is a link to the movie.:
ruclips.net/video/W66HP-3HO_A/видео.html
@@fromanabe8639 I couldn't agree with you more, Froman Abe.
I never believed that people would be tortured forever for their wrongful behavior and beliefs. So I rejoiced when I found Mr. Fudge's book. Therein I found the proof that God is Loving and Compassionate, Loves us and wants us to be in His Family!
Edward was raised believing that popular view. A Hollywood movie was produced about his life and the research project that led him to discover what the Bible teaches. It is on DVD and can be streamed. title: Hell and Mr Fudge. I also have the story without Hollywood embellishments here:
studio.ruclips.net/user/videoosAWNp2cbzo/edit?o=U
Here is a link to the movie:
ruclips.net/video/W66HP-3HO_A/видео.html
Thank God for this man. This subject was the contingency on which my faith has hung for so many years. This lecture has lifted an unspeakably heavy weight off of me.
The reason the subject of eternal torment has always bothered me is because it's so inconsistent with the character of the God I know and love. My inability to reconcile this teaching with my own experience of God has left me confused and bitter about what I had been taught about God and Jesus.
Again, I can't express how helpful this lecture is to me. Thank you for sharing this!
it truly is a pleasure to include Edward Fudge videos on my Channel. He is known for this subject but his understanding of salvation is as strong as any other who are strong on it. Happy to know it has been a blessing to you too.
Praise God! I've shared it multiple times in hopes of helping others as well. I am a Seventh-day Adventist and this is consistent with what we teach as well. I've found this to be a very clear on concise lecture on death, hell and the eternal soul or lack thereof.
While this man's view is not popular with most local churches and pastors today yet he makes a good argument from the Bible for his position.
Amen brother. He makes a fantastic argument.
So many church's are like cults , they have to have something to threaten people with to get compliance.
Any other theology takes away their control and wounds their ego.
This is simply beautiful news about the eternal, loving, gracious, powerful, just and wise God of the Universe.
Masterful teaching, clear, concise, done in a gentle spirit of truth seeking and love.
When is the last time you heard a teacher tell others before presenting their views not to change their mind then and there? Not to make rash judgements and decisions.
This teaching really does align up with a teaching of God being love and just.
Thank you for all your hard work Mr Fudge
+P3RC3PT10N
Snuffing out your children is loving and just?
This doctrine dosent even pass the sniff test!
Either you believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World or you dont! If you research for yourself, you will find out that He does do the Will of the father and Saves all Mankind!
Blotting them out? Give me a break, or is that a give me a spiritual Lobotomy so I wont remember what God did to my loved ones!
Fudge knows the truth but proclaiming Jesus Christ to be the Savior of the World as in World as it is written would cost him everything!
Phil Rivera
God isn't snuffing out anyone. You have your own responsibility for your own actions.
You don't get to tell God what he must do and when. If it meets your approval of how God should work - then you'll accept it, if not then...
The bible is abundantly clear over and over again. The wages of sin is death. Jesus conquered death. If you don't accept God's gift then it's you not accepting God's gift - not that God hasn't offered it.
P3RC3PT10N
Oh Dear, I guess you haven t read Ephesians yet., it says we aare saved by grace and not by our own works lest we boast ....like you do!
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
*not by works, so that no one can boast*.
Its hard to convince someone like you their wrong when they are convinced that trampling on the ashes of your own loved one is heavenly!
Phil Rivera And how do you answer the points raised in his book? There's quite a few, not an isolated verse here and there.
It would be great to think that is what happens, but that's not the overall biblical impression given unless you use single verses here and there.
Let me ask you a question.
The Book Of Revelation is Gods revelation to the world. Fudge believes that the second death in the Lake of Fire is eternal death.
The Egyptians believed that the fate of the judged wicked is eternal torture or eternal death in a Lake Of Fire, 3500 years before God revealed it to the church.
How is that possible? How could the Pagans know Revelation.
ALL THE PAGANS BELIEVED IN HELL!
For the first 500 years, the early church believed the L.O.F was to purify and make Holy
Fabulous exposition and commentary. Thanks. I have struggled with the idea of eternal torment for 45 years. I have listened to alternative doctrines at times throughout the years but decided recently to seek the truth of the matter with as much scholarship as I can muster. This is a great start.
Edward has written several books since 1982 on this topic and everyone seems to agree he does a thural job looking at all aspects of scripture and history on the topic. He held the traditional view when he began his investigation and was surprised with the outcome of his research. there is a Hollywood movie that was done about his life. titled Hell and Mr Fudge available on Amazon Prime as a free stream. I have the same story done as a testimony based on Psalms 71 on my youtube channel. it is the story without hollywood creative licence to protect from lawsuits. do a channel search for Edward Fudge My Story Psalms 71 he also has a lot of free materials on his website edwardfudge.com
I have believed in an eternal hell torment as long as I have been a christian. That's 30 years. Now and then I have had hard to accept the thought, but I have not earlier questioned the teaching. I have read these verses about the sinner's destruction and that the wicked shall be perished but I have interpreted it through the doctrine that the soul never dies and the spiritual death means separation from God, not really death.
But according to the bible all beings will not have eternal life. This fact doesn't remove the seriousness with the gospel like some people will think. But it confirms that God is a just God and that he will not immortalise the sin and the sinner. God will destroy it and no more pain and sorrow will be ever.
Such kind of hell like described in the religious tradition truly is one of the worst deceptions in the church history.
Edward Fudge has declared this issue with a theological knowledge and sharpness like no one else I have heard!
+Patric J Yes, if eternal conscious torment is real, then there's no triumph over sin, because the wicked sin in hell for all eternity.
+Patric J I'm so happy that you have found the truth. This has brought you closer to God as it has for me. I pray you never stop seeking truth. It could be others entrenched doctrines, and long held beliefs are also not biblical. In fact I can almost guarantee it. Don't stop seeking the truth. God bless.
then why did Jesus have to die the way he did????
u are lost and deceived by the devil. if no one is tormented in hell, then we can all have a huge sinning orgy party and not have to pay the price. then why did Christ have to suffer the way he did? for fun?
You are correct. I believe Mr. Fudge's teachings are false
He did a good job with this. I was leaning this way, and have been in prayer on this topic lately, and now found this video. Very glad that I did.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Five years ago, I was spiritually attacked during a vulnerable and transitional part of my life. Satan attacked me with a thought that annihilation was real. For those five years, the heaven and hell I once believed in sank into a subservient category that was shadowed by a larger and much more frightening category of thought that there was actually no eternity that existed for anyone. Over and over again, my brain said "God is going to judge us, and judge us so hard that our death will be the seal of our existence". I prayed for God to take this fear away for 5 years. During the beginning of this 5 year stretch, the fear was debilitating in my life. I often lived paranoid and a deep depression came from this attack. As time went on, the depression lightened up, but the weight wasn't really gone. Then I heard this message by Edward Fudge. In fact I didn't even hear the whole thing. I only heard a friend of mine recap what he had heard Edward Fudge say in one of his book. And at that moment, it was like he flung a small stone into my head that hit a very structurally important stone that was holding up a giant wall that prevented me from seeing eternity in my life and in the lives of others around me. That wall seems to have but all crumbled now and after all these years praying for God to take this away, instead of removing it completely, he compartmentalized it into what Edward Fudge is proposing. It feels like God made a chess move in my mind that I didn't know would happen and I didn't even think was possible. Annihilation used to hang over me like a huge shadow of inevitability, but now I perceive it as still a real thing, but reserved for those who don't follow God. A huge weight has been lifted and now my mind can think eternally again. Some people might say that eternal punishment is worse than annihilation, and that we're copping out on what God has said because we can't believe in a God who would be cruel enough to torment someone forever, but over the last 5 years, I've come to realize that annihilation is far more scary to my mind. To be wiped out of existence is the ultimate punishment. I pray for all those who don't know Christ to come to him so that they can find life.
Yes God is often better than our fears about him are. thankfully Edward helped you realize some of this.
Do Bo my mind thinks that if one Does not exist then one would not have to deal with eternal suffering. Simply put your gone and you don't know you're gone. The one big downside of annihilation is people will go through their lives believing that if they are eventually annihilated then they won't suffer at all and so why try being right with God.
@@russellbarnes7732 Yeah, most people think suffering is worse than not existing. Maybe it is, I don't know. But we still experience suffering in our lives, and God obviously still keeps us alive, because it must be better to suffer and exist. Granted, I'll play devils advocate on myself and say that the idea of eternal suffering is on a different level, and not in order to make us stronger or build our faith. There's not much else I can answer about that. It's hard to say which would be a worse experience because one of the options is not experiencing at all. But I do think God puts a spark in us all that we have a desire to live and not die. We have a desire to keep existing, and even though suffering in existence is horrible and we'd probably wish we could die, something about not existing just seems fundamentally more dark and brutal than existing in an eternal suffering.
@@Hayrange Thank you for your reply, I read it again and this line here has me contemplating. Thank you. "We have a desire to keep existing, and even though suffering in existence is horrible and we'd probably wish we could die, something about not existing just seems fundamentally more dark and brutal than existing in an eternal suffering."
When I sleep I am unconscious in a way. So I was hoping those that don't make it to God will simply go unconscious after they paid there dues sorta speak.
10/08/21 Bible Teaching Snippet…the religious lie about hell & God tormenting people forever / Faye Stiles
ruclips.net/video/qfeP2UgyoFs/видео.html
Fantastic teaching. Praise the Lord Jesus. What a humble, well researched and clear presentation. God surely raised this man up for the task of unmasking the lie and recovering Biblical truth on this matter.
This is a man of all season, even when he is dead he speaketh. Singular in his research, straight in his delivery. Lovely as a real saint in his demeanor. Example to be reckoned with in the great men of faith. Heaven bound.
all true
I love this man, and am immensely grateful for his incredible contribution to evangelicalism.
Contribution to evangelicalism?? This has never been an evangelical belief. Nice try though.
Many wise Christians here and it's refreshing to hear the Biblical view of hell in the Judeo-Christian, non-pagan or Catholic context. The protestants need to stop peddling papist nonsense. We're better than that guys. Don't let the conventions of men contradict the teaching of Scripture.
chinaboytag1. No. Protestants are the diamectricly opposite of papist and their devilist doctrines. Ever wonder why they are called protestants? The very word means anti-catholic!
This is excellent and very well Scripturally documented. It makes much more sense with the character of God.
Gwendolyn Wehage the character of God how?
@@blackpatriot3 When Christ was crucified he paid the price for our salvation. Did he suffer for eternity in order to accomplish this?To believe that God will keep the unsaved alive and in unimaginable torment because his wrath can never be satisfied calls into question the character of God. How can anyone reconcile that God is Love on the one hand and so vengeful and capricious that he would keep people alive and burning in eternal torment on the other?
Life changing speech. Thank you
my pleasure Edward was a great friend.
@@fleetwd1 I spoke to him for 30 minutes on the phone about a year before he died. Found him to be extremely humble. I am formally a Church of Christ minister (no longer in the coC), so I felt we had some things in common.
@@martin9410 Yes Edward was a very humble man with a very sensitive conscious. Trying his best to be pleasing to God in all that he did. But resting in the finished work of Christ for eternal security.
While he was best known for his research on the topic of hell resulting in his first edition book on the subject in 1982 by Verdict publications through people I knew. His understanding of the Gospel was first class. I was honored to include his videos on my channel.
Our last conversation was on Tuesday before Thanksgiving. He passed while asleep the Friday or Saturday after his and my favorite holiday. He was such a blessing to know.
ONLY GOD KNOWS the actual conscious period of misery and torment involved in hell and the lake of fire for any particular soul, but there is no doubt that the eventuality of annihilation of spirit/soul & body to nothingness and ZERO consciousness IS eternal punishment in itself. - and the later is certainly more in keeping with a GOD of love and justice.
I’m wondering if hell is the realisation of what we could have had and the painful separation that results. We then fade into non existence. Now if that isn’t hell I don’t know what is.
Len Hummel,
It sounds like much of this is speculation including your point of view. That's probably one major reason why there are so many different Christian denominations.
I really love his heart and his presentation, as well as the deep research that he has done on this subject!
I love this man's thought process. I found out about him when I was reading something about George MacDonaald, quite some time ago.
3 years since I wrote my first comment to this excellent video. Since then I have read a lot and listened to a lot of videos. One thing I have studied is claimed hell visions. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who tell that they got a vision of hell or mean their soul went to hell. These large amount of stories has obviously a deep impact on many christians belief. And I realise that my belief in hell was mainly based on hell stories, while I was deceived by a misinterpretation of the bible. And this is very common: many christians theology is perverted by pagan myths. Very dangerous!
One thing I have noticed with all these hell visions/visits/dreams is that they have a common denominator: works salvation. The claimed reasons for going to hell are among other: vanity, being lukewarm, wearing jewellries, smoking, not giving tithe and so on. Several of the reasons in the videos are not even sin according to the bible!
The hell stories take away the assurance of salvation God gave us and push people into self righteousness! We CAN know that we are saved through faith by grace. Because of Jesus's fulfilled work on the cross! Our own righteousness is like filthy rags and the only thing we can do is to trust in His grace and dress in His righteousness! Jesus said: IT'S FINISHED! It's ALL His credit and no one of us can boast.
Consequently the hell videos present double heresy: an unbiblical doctrine of God's judgment and a denial of the biblical gospel of grace.
Yes every doctrine needs to be based upon what Scripture teaches not what people believe. Peoples testimonies about Near Death Experiences are shaped by what they believe about death and hell and they are faulty views. The Scriptures do not teach people go to their final destination/hell at death unlike popular thinking. Hell only occurs after the coming of Christ at the end of the age after all are raised from the dead and some receive life and some receive judgement/the 2nd death. (see Acts 24:15; Dan. 12:2; Rev. 20:4ff., 11-17 and Jn.5:29).
You are very wise to see how they do not even know the basic fundamental teaching of salvation. If they have that wrong, they do not know much about God's Word. We are told to test the spirits "to the law and to the testimony if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." see Isa. 8:19-20 NKJV
"Let God be true, but every man a lair" - Romans 3:4
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“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” - Matthew 25:41
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” - Matthew 25:46
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. - Revelation 20:10
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"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" - Hebrews 10:26-29
fleetwd1 I’m taking it that you don’t believe in the pre tribulation rapture?
What I love about Fudge is that he just read his Bible. 😉
yes it is always about what the bible says, and doesn't say, with Edward..
very instructive presentation. good quality Bible study. praise God.
One of many wonderful teachings on this subject. No matter what though, there will be those that love their tradition of what hell is and they are not changing no matter what they are shown. They don't care how the bible should be studied as a whole, they'd rather put on blinders.
I’m very much benefiting from the comment section as well as the video. So many angles and arguments are included in the comments. Big thanks to this page for responding!
you are more than welcome. Edward was a real special friend to me. I trust his legacy will live on. Many know him through this issue but he was a real special where it comes to the gospel. His two commentaries on the book of Hebrews and his Two books The Great Rescue and The Divine Rescue show the depth of his understanding of the gospel. he also demonstrated the gospel in his blog gracEmail where he answered question his subscribers would ask.
Great presentation
At about the 31 minute mark he refers to wineskins and spoiled food. It reminds me of when Jesus cursed the fig tree which did not produce fruit and it withered and died. It was unfit and didn't serve the purpose for which it was created.
This is by far the best video and explanation I have seen in support of annihilation
thank you. yes the late Edward Fudge, a personal friend of mine, is known for being the most thoroughly complete advocate for scripture and in this has given voice to this view often wrongly criticized as only being a cult doctrine. He proves to the contrary it is a biblical doctrine. And has written The Fire That Consumes to appeal to the opponents of this view to come up with more biblical evidence than has been written to date 1982. unfortunately the arguments continue in the same vein as were previously penned. His 3rd addition in 2011 Edward addresses the 17 authors of 15 books which came out against his view since his first edition was published in 1982. It is worth the price for those who are interested in understanding the biblical view of how God justly deals with the unrepentant wicked. I highly recommend both the 1st and 3rd editions. the 2nd edition was written for European audience and may be difficult to find. the 3rd has the forwards written for all three and will cover more than the 2nd did.
fleetwd1
Thank you, I’ll will try to find the 3rd edition
I can't wait to meet Mr Fudge.
Great teaching. I knew this was on the table. He presents a good case.
I am struggling with this subject for almost a year now, and this gave me a lot more clarity of what the bible really says. Thanks. I am exited for the next video @ "remnant radio" about eternal torment. I found this video because it was mentioned on a discussion @ remnant radio.
i have most of the videos by Edward Fudge on my Channel. you may do a channel search on my channel with the name Edward Fudge to get more videos by him.
His family also maintain his website www.edwardfudge.com for much more information and lots of free stuff.
He was a great bible student on many topics but is known best for his presentations on this topic.
Hollywood made a movie about him titled "Hell and Mr Fudge." if you have amazon prime you can stream it for free. it is also available on DVD.
I have always found it odd that Christians become very upset when this issue comes up. Its odd that people prefer eternal trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of years torment as opposed to a loving God that causes the wicked to cease from existence forever at the end of the world. I am a Seventh Day Adventist and my view of Gods love changed when I understood that God is not like hitler who enjoyed the torment of people in his own nation. God is Love. His final act of destroying the wicked forever is love. Tormenting someone forever because of 10, 20, 30, 40 years of sin is not love and is not justice.
Im not SDA but I do hold Saturday Sabbath, and I also believe that the Lake of Fire will be destruction and annihilation of the wicked (not eternal torment).
I also dont understand why some find this belief soo difficult to understand, and they refuse to accept as the truth represented by the Apostles. It seems that they prefer a merciless God, instead of the merciful and loving God that actually exists.
I agree with Fred Fudge's view of punishment for the wicked.
J Burn Yeah. I am also an Seventh Day Adventist. I would like to quote something from Ellen G. White:
"Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),-Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, “Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; ... I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.... Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.” Then “the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;” “they shall be as though they had not been.” Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 1:16.
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is “alienated from the life of God.” Christ says, “All they that hate Me love death.” Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."
"The glory of His countenance, which to the righteous is life, will be to the wicked a consuming fire."
"To sin, wherever found, “our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them."
J Burn It's church tradition, we don't like it be we pretend we do because we know our feelings count for little when we know God is the ultimate authority. It's a misunderstanding of the text that has been perpetuated for so long through the church that its become church doctrine and even at that, rarely talked about in church because of how off putting it is, they don't know how to rationalize it. But they feel if they don't, they are calling the word of God false, not realizing that it is they themselves who have the falsehood. They stick with this because they are afraid to depart this view they reluctantly believe they have to accept.
I don't know if I believe that all souls are eventually heaven bound like some, I haven't been convinced of that, but i don't believe eternal torture fits anywhere in the context and character of the word of Jesus Christ.
What makes more sense thinking about why God made us and who God is?
A. God made beings of free will knowing that should they fail to heed his instructions, that one, two, three...all the way to billions of people would inevitably be tortured for an infinite timeline of agony, because they didn't choose him, were ignorant of him or were indoctrinated by others. So creating us, there was absolute certainty that this would be a fate befallen his creation and some would escape it.
Or
B. God made beings of free will, knowing that they could prove themselves individually by choosing God with that very same gift of free will, or they can be punished for wrong doings and go back to what they were before, the dust of the earth.
To have life and fear the end of it. Knowing you could have lived forever without the pains of this world and you rejected it to never, ever, ever return again and have life...that's not an acceptable outcome, even for Atheists who believe there is nothing when you die. Because if you believe that, then were revealed at the end of your life that everything you knew and did was so insignificant and stood before you was true life and you were denied it because you denied him, how awful would that be?
I wonder about people who don't know Jesus. People who are forced and brainwashed into false religions, tribes that don't even know other people exist let alone the name of Jesus Christ. I shouldn't think they'll face an eternity of ceaseless burning suffering, but on this matter you can only rest assured that the just outcome for his creation will be done and in reality we know very little. But from what little we do know, I do not think the traditional view I held all my life holds up.
You know in my church down the street, there are pamphlets. I was going through a metaphorical emotional hell trying to wrestle this absolute terror that hell is eternal torment. It malfunctioned my brain just contemplating it and concerned about what it meant to secure my own salvation to unquestionably escape that fate. In this pamphlet which was meant to give assurance and peace, it said to accept Christ and his gift given on the cross, but then immediately contrasted it by saying, "or you will burn forever". This pamphlet was for kids, it was in comic form and showed a young boy and girl standing in the midst of fire.
That right there tells me we are not spreading the truth of God's word, rather we are spreading a deception, that has done untold damage to those that could have been saved but rejected God outright based on this contradiction of love me or I'll burn you for an eternity.
yes it speaks volumes to just how indoctrinated some Christians are. Also very worrying that they appear to enjoy this teaching. Where is their love, their compassion for others? I believe they have head knowledge of God but have not let this trickle down to their hearts. Sometimes this is the longest journey for a person to make
P3RC3PT10N
I think they have such a strong rejection of this idea of hippy Jesus whose "all about love man" smoking a joint and being totally cool with whatever So they think if their understanding of the Bible results in a softening of anything teaching, that its just making God's word easier to digest.
I think common sense tells you when that happens, this is not one of those times.
I am exceptionally happy to hear your words directly from you. I have read your book and have used it for the fair view in defense of the love of God who will remove all trace of sin, death and the enemy of God, Satan the source of the distortions of the judgments of God.
Will be missed. [13 July 1944-25 Nov 2017] RIP.
The ECT belief is shown to be dishonest from the beginning, when God tells Adam he will die for doing wrong.
Your book really, really helped me! Thank you for clarifying this.
Thank you Ka, Edward has passed but his legacy lives on in his book other videos on my channel and a Hollywood movie about His life including his research that led to his writing The Fire That Consumes. His website that contains lots of free writings too. I particularly like his commentaries on the book of Hebrews one free online called our man in heaven and one still on sale called Hebrews: ancient encouragement for believers today. other excellent books are the divine rescue. it takes you from Genesis to Revelation and reveals how all of scripture center on the christ event. his website is edwardfudge.com
I appreciate this. I will check it out.
Excellent speaker with unquestionable remarks as it pertains to heaven and hell!
Great teaching 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Overall, Fudge's teaching is brilliant. But I think I have a more logical explanation of "eternal fire" such as in Matt 25:41 & in Jude 7. It is a fire that comes from God's presence, where it does indeed burn forever. Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning. The fire that hit them, the fire that rained down from Heaven, the fire's source is eternal.
I believe the same.
I read your comment after posting mine and it seems you had the same thought.
I have heard both sides of the story. Personally don't want to play God to determine what hell is like. Important for me is to fallow Jesus
@Yekkt Yes,yes and no. Where does it say to hate your family? and Jesus said if you hate someone in your hearth you killed him already 1. john 3:15
@Yekkt Im not poor but I dont even have a wealth pay,rather I have just enough so I can pay rent,food and water. I dont care for the stuff in the world,or "making a career". We all have a free will and just like everybody else God cant stop you from raping a child or murdering someone,I wouldnt suggest you to go and do that but God cant stop you. But even if someone did this to you, you forgive them matthew 18:21-22 forgive 490 times. Jesus said love your God and love your neighbor as yourself,when you talk about luke 14:26 its about you hate the sin and not literally your family and how are you suppose to obey what Jesus said if you hate someone ? If you are a christian,dont love the stuff your non-christian family does because they hate God. Jesus often talks about parables,he dont want you to pluck your eye out or cut off your arm.
Brilliant video. If only more Christians could get a hold of this.
Very thorough lecture. He gives a lot of information to think about.
I wish more people understood this. There will be a hell but it will be a fire that consumes, which is a punishment that lasts forever--there is no reversing it. There will be no sin in God's universe at the end of time.
Makes a lot of sense doesn't it, without inpuning God's character or bringing into question the sufficiency of Jesus' death.
great teaching bless
Now this is an excellent video featuring Edward Fudge. I put a link to this video in my Holypal.com forum: Questions & Answers (based on sound doctrine). Sometimes the question of "Hell" comes up. Thank You, and God bless.
This has been the best presentation for the absolute destruction of the soul, that I have heard. I'm certainly going to look more into this, its worth taking time to "chew" on. Thanks for putting this up.
It doesn't make sense to me to create countless amounts of living beings that you love if you know before hand that most of them will spend eternity in agony burning in hell fire like why even create them if thats the case yet this is the most popular belief most preachers preach it and most people don't seem to question it but I have recently started questioning this which brings me here the bible can seem contradicting on this especially in Revolutions I think its just mis use of words or translations into English language.
Either way, stay away from Hell. The suffering will be long enough before they are consumed, if they are consumed.
Unrepentant sinners in Hell now will remain there for another 1,007 years at a minimum.
Well presented. Even better than typical sda presentations.
Great lesson, many thanks and Many Many Blessings!
thank you William. we are blessed to be able to feature all videos of Edward on this Channel. We are also blessed to be able to share The Lanier Library Lecture Series. This video has the 2nd most watch time of all my videos, and generates a great deal of interest.
Nicely done. It's clear and it makes sense.
Great teaching for sure, solid, based, obviously, on years of study, and I’d love to be convinced by it (I’m basically the only convert, born-again believer among my family and friends, and it saddens me to think of those I love who have passed away without knowing my Lord and Savior Jesus Wonderful Christ!). Somehow, however, I’m not - at least, not yet. I guess I will have to take Mr. Fudge’s own advice and take it slowly…
I can't see how a perfectly just God cannot judge an unsaved sinner, however I do know that we as believers - we should never be jealous or vengeful towards wicked people especially super successful ones and we should never wish that judgement on them. Although they appear confident, they are deaf blind and dumb and they'll learn soon enough how weak and helpless they will be in front of The Throne.
God made provision for all in order that they may not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16. He does not desire that any perish. He is a just God and will meet out judgment in ways we might marvel at. I trust Him.
Excellent. This is true!!
I am very orthodox, but I am a conditionalist. I believe that in John 3:16, when Jesus contrasted perish with eternal life, He knew what He was talking about. We either perish or have eternal life. I believe the wage for sin is death, as Paul said. I believe in the beginning, when God warned Adam and Eve that disobedience would lead to death, that's what He meant. He didn't warn our first parents that they would spend eternal, conscious torment in hell. That's a dreadful secret to keep. The first time Sheol is used in the Torah, it is translated as grave. It is when Jacob is told that Joseph has died. He says he will go to the grave mourning his son who is already there. Why would Jacob believe that Joseph was in hell, if that's what Sheol means? He was righteous. Why did Jacob believe he was going to hell? He was forgiven. This first mention of Sheol is 2000 years after the fall in the Garden, and in the passage it clearly means grave, and that is how it's translated. The law of first mention states that the first time a word occurs in scripture, it establishes the meaning of the word throughout scripture. If Sheol meant grave the first time it was used, why would it change to mean the Greek Hades 2000 years later? I agree with Dr. Fudge. I don't see eternal, conscious torment in the Bible, either. If that makes me a heretic, then I guess I'm a heretic.
ProphecyPodRadio
You are not heretic. You are simply doing as the Bereans in Acts 17. God bless you, my friend!
Sheol is not hell. Nor is hades.
And Dr Fudge sees an eternal, conscious torment in the bible?
Depends who you attribute authority to call you a heretic. No man or institution has the seal of heaven to decide who's a heretic, in my view. All things are measured by the sure word of God. "if they don't speak according to the law', "there is no light in them" ISaiah.
@@Jebact No, he doesn't. That is what he is saying. I think you're seeing the same thing he was seeing.
Very well said and insightful! Totally agree.
Christians should consider carefully if the vast majority of Bible pastors and scholars cannot get this correct obvious topic correct - what else have they missed?
Joe Cipriani, your comment is full of power. But Earthlings can only teach with a 10% brain. Teaching will continue with the brain of GOD, but only for the saints. 5-15-2022. But continue to learn what you can.
I'm glad I stuck with this. It wasn't easy at first. He covers a lot of ground, and makes a lot of sense. And he presents it in the right humble and respectful spirit. I will continue to consider. Blessings.
This video should have at least one million more views than it currently has.
I just saw his movie.
YHWH BLESS YOU.
HEBREW GOD !!
Something important for you believers who struggle with this: To come to the truth so you can throw away your anti-depressants and live in God’s rest, the first step is to learn what a soul and a spirit are.
It’s right there in Gen 2.7 and makes a simple equation: Dust + Breath of life (spirit) = breathing creature. That’s all we are. Breathing creatures just like the animals.
They say “Not so, God, we are immortal and live forever.”
But God said “From dust YOU came, and to dust YOU shall return.” Dying YOU shall die. Not some pagan immortal part of you, but YOU.
And this why we need a resurrection of the dead. If we have a pagan immortal soul, then there is no use of resurrection of the dead. It’s unnecessary and ceremonial at best. And it just doesn’t make sense.
The deceived will say “My Grandma is dead and she’s in heaven.” Well, if she’s in Heaven then she’s not dead. How can she be dead if she’s alive in Heaven? Why would she need a resurrection of the dead if she’s not dead but already alive?
Then the next step is to learn how Hell got put into the Bible. Every single time that word is used, it is a translation from one proper noun to a different proper noun. God’s word was just not good enough for the translators.
And the next step is to read the hundreds of Biblical texts that say the wicked will die, perish, be destroyed, LITERALLY and read the 2 prophetic verses in Revelations SYMBOLICALLY. The believers of pagan Hell do it backwards!
And don’t let them deceive you into believing Luke 16 is a real story and not a parable. It’s easy to study why and it’s such a silly argument to say that it’s a true story that I don’t even bother with it anymore.
And finally, something for you to observe. After you learn from Genesis 2:7 what a spirit and a soul are, watch the Hellfire preachers and how they use those terms. You see that they use them interchangeably, don’t know what they are, claim one is immortal, or the other is immortal. They’ll say things like “a soul goes to Hell…” then forget that they used “soul” and use “spirit” later in the same sermon. It’s pretty wild. Some of these men have PhD’s.
And if any preacher tells you that anyone or anything possesses intrinsic immortality other than GOD, they are deceived and have no clue what they’re are talking about.
Could you expand upon the difference between a soul and a spirit, please?
Sure. Plato came up with the idea of an immortal soul that was within us, the real us, immaterial, that longed to escape the body upon death. This is why Socrates died with a smile on his face after drinking poison. This Greek philosophy would pass on to the Romans who would make it doctrine.
The Bible “soul” is different. Read KJV Gen 2:7 like this: Body (dust) + breath of life (spirit) = living soul. Another words, you are a soul. The Hebrew word is nepesh (I probably spelled it wrong. It simply means “breathing creature.” Now get your concordance and you’ll find out that this same word applies to animals!
The spirit in you is the life from God. All breathing creatures have it. When a person or animal dies, the spirit returns to God, and YOU return to dust. Your hope of immortality is in the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. Read Acts and they talk about David still being in tomb. Read where Paul says we “Put on immortality” at the resurrection.
Now, people will say “That is what the Jehova’s witnesses and the SDA believe!” in order to discredit the argument. Well, so what! The Moslems believe in the immortal soul and that God is going to torture most of mankind for an eternity. Does this make their argument right or wrong?
@HG,
Excellent written. So much confusion and weird beliefs when pagan ideas have influenced the theology.
If we go to heaven directly at the moment of death, what happened to the resurrection at the last day?
The belief in a kind of partial resurrection is common among many christians. That the soul goes to heaven or paradise(in any case experiencing God's bliss) and wait for the resurrection day to get the body back. Is the hope of resurrection the hope of not continuing to be a bodyless soul? Or will the dead souls in Christ leave the bliss and go to the grave in order to go into the body again when it becomes alive and glorified? Man, this is such a weird ideas...
And as you say about the kind of common speak that "grandma is dead and is in heaven". If Jesus needed to resurrect from the dead before He could go back to heaven, how can we do it without resurrection?
The only way grandma can be in heaven is that she has resurrected from the dead. And then she is not dead.
I personally believe no one of our beloved ones and friends who received the gift of salvation by grace through are in heaven yet, because the resurrection at the last day is yet to come.
And I do believe man is a soul and does not have a soul. The idea of soul leaving the body is not biblical but derives from pagan mythology.
@@HG-ic8kswelp Im hoping I'll be able to throw away all my substances before long. Ciggerettes are almost as hard to kick as some of the doctrines I was raised with lol. Those things are hard to kick lol.
Man I really wanna meet some fellow Bible believers who take a fresh and personal view of the Scripture.
Lord, I lift up your people that are called by your name. Help each of us to know you and to bring you into every decision we make and everything that we do. Help us to examine and discuss your word in a way that brings Glory to you!
We know that we see in part and that we need to continue in your word until the church comes into unity! Help us ! We need you in all things! In the name of Jesus! Amen!
This is very important to understand.
"Fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna" is about as plain as plain can be. Other verses are not so clear - not least because there is no actual word for 'eternal' in first century Greek.
False premise.
Yeah if the death of hell fire is eternal, fire and that's the penalty for sin, then Jesus received and incredible discount at the cross.
mikell7777 - then where did Jesus go for 3 days?
@mikell7777 Jesus had no sin in Him
Good video ty for sharing
The most balanced presentation I have seen on this subject. Above all regardless of what one comes away with it was presented IN LOVE. I had one thought based on Revelation 14:10 that seems to me to keep the nature of God consistent. Jesus said in doing good to those who hate you hot coals are heaped upon their heads. What if the Goodness and Glory of God is what is a torment to the wicked for eternity? Not a hellfire bbq as many teach but simply God's Truth shining brightly forever. Currently those who reject Christ can suppress the Truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) but in that day when He is fully revealed they can no longer hide from Him. Yet His nature never changes. His presence is still that of a loving Creator who does not rejoice in the death of the wicked.
very well thought out reflection. we know that the gnashing of teeth represents anger and this seems consistent with your thought. they are angry because their ideas of an angry God seeking to punish in such an abominable way is not consistent with who God really is and there separation from Him leads to this anger. He truly is the God of love and wishes for none to perish as is well said in John 3:16 "for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
I would like to have this on CD or DVD. Great lesson! Thanks!
the Lanier Library gives DVDs at cost for $5.00. $2.00 by mail in the US i think. you want to tell them you want "Lecture by Edward Fudge - September 24, 2011"
there is a list here: www.laniertheologicallibrary.org/lecture-dvds/
contact info here www.laniertheologicallibrary.org/contact-us/
An interesting lecture for sure! :) What makes me slightly cynical though is the fact that we are warned not to take the verses that speak of eternal punishment literally, but whenever it says 'perish' that gets explained as 'the soul vanishes' and that we ought to take litterally.
@CanadaCraig From our viewpoint Sodom and Gomorrah is 'GONE', but that still doenst prove the vanishing of their souls. From our perspective the daughter of Jairus was 'GONE' , yet Christ said: The child is not dead, but sleeping. So basing an argument on what we 'SEE' or 'NOT SEE' is not a very wise thing to do.... as brothers we walk by faith not by sight :)
I am not sure where you are getting your information from. I doubt it comes from the lecture.
eternal punishment can be and must be taken literally. some think it means that the punishment is ongoing but when the punishment is death dying happens then it is over. it is not ongoing because then life would be ongoing not death. However eternal punishment of death means finality no more. In fact the bible says "death shall be no more." If it is ongoing death cannot "be no more."
Now souls only vanish after the lake of fire/2nd death because there will no longer be a resurrection from that death, where as there is from the first death for both the saved and the wicked. For both will be raised, the saved raised to life, and the wicked raised to judgment and a final death.
@@fleetwd1 Eternal punishment is hardly just dying once. That it not what it means at all. 5 years in jail is worse punishment then that.
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” - Matthew 25:41
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” - Matthew 25:46
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. - Revelation 20:10
@@JesusSavesSouls you are correct it is not "just dying once" that renders "eternal punishment." it is the 2nd death that renders the unbeliever as unressurrectable and thereby "eternal" in it's consequence. Death, perishing, or destruction, is always the wages if sin and unbelief, not eternal suffering which renders one unable to die, as is commonly taught.
@@fleetwd1 "Let God be true, but every man a lair" - Romans 3:4
Read the scripture, its torment day and night for ever and ever - Revelation 20:10
We have to accept these things even if we find it hard too. I didn't want to accept I couldn't masturbate, or smoke weed, or have sex, but I have to be obedient to his word. The word is also clear on the subject of hell.
"Men tend to have the beliefs that suit their passions. Cruel men believe in a cruel God, and use their belief to excuse their cruelty. Only kindly men believe in a kindly God, and they would be kindly in any case."(Russell)
While there might be something to what Russell had to say. Edward held to the majority view which he was raised to believe was the biblical view. He was hired by a scholarly magazine editor to research the biblical position. it surprised him to find the view held by a majority of Christians has no Biblical support. His view changed not by how he felt about things but based upon what God's word reveals when studied carefully.
I hate the Hell mongers, they don’t live in Africa starving to death, Pharisees! Vile just like Pharisees in Jesus time.
@@racheladkins6060 I can't stand the Hell mongers ! They don't see the absalute, death pain begging and starvation, of the people in the country that I am in ....I wish to God that I was in the united states right now ! Living the life of the Hell mongers ! Their disgusting to think God would burn Bob up for eternity for saying a cussword ...Most Hell mongers are bitter angry and mad at the fact that the beautiful blonde did not date them, their mad that their rich calebrity neighbors are driving cars and living in houses they wish they had ! They have a outward appearance of godliness but are filled with hate ! Unloving and uncaring !
Thank you!
May Father YAHweh bless your understanding.
This is so good and for most of us who have spent hundreds of hours studying out we come to exactly the same conclusion. But I tell you if you have been in doctrinated with a particular interpretation of a very small sample of about 5 verses on this topic over dozens and dozens of years I know it can be hard to change your mindset. That's what's called indoctrination.
Another problem that arises when looking at what the Bible says through the "eternal torment" perspective is the tree of life. Read Revelation 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." Here we have to face the fact that in order to live eternally in the New Jerusalem we will have to once again partake of the tree of life. So one would have to assume that the poor saps being tormented forever will also have to eat of the tree of life. Or would they have to eat from the tree of eternal pain and suffering? Would the fruit of such a tree be rotten? If so, who would eat it or how would they enforce one to eat it? Could one only pretend they ate it then secretly die to escape eternal suffering? Obviously I'm being facetious. The eternal torment lie is the same one that Satan told in the Garden of Eden when he told Eve she would surely not die if she ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This lie that God would burn poor souls forever serves Satan's purpose in many ways. It makes God look unjust, unforgiving and having no mercy whatsoever. This lie also gives Satan the ability to tell those who follow him that they can rule as masters with him in Hell forever. The fact is all who follow Satan will share in his destruction and that destruction is eternal. It will never be undone and they will never again exist. That is an eternal punishment. They will not be getting a new delicious heavenly fruit each month, unfortunately. Nor will they be eating the leaves which also apparently have healing properties as well.
A well constructed and convincing lecture. My question is, that since in all these key passages it says the wicked shall perish or be destroyed, who are the wicked? The Hitlers of the world? The brutes, the child abusers, the rapists, the serial killers? Or the unbelievers? The unrepentant? Who, precisely, has earned the title of “the wicked”?
you forgot an important category to consider "All unbelievers and men stealers talkin' in the name of religion"
I think the wicked are those who have not been made clean by the blood of Jesus. We were all wicked at one point or another, but when we receive Jesus, His blood washes away our sin, and we are no longer wicked but are righteous.
We are all wicked to a certain degree. We have all sinned and are enemies of GOD. When we accept Jesus gift of salvation even if we have been wicked we a saved from that judgement. So who are the wicked? Those not accepting Jesus. That's Gods lifeline as I am sure you already know. For sure there is difference between a kind father that went to work was good to his family had his vices like all of us yet did not believe in GOD and a child rapist ect ect. That's where Jesus Christ becomes the righteous judge knowing every deed and every though in our heart. There is a period between the judgement and annihilation where much torment and nashing of teeth occurs as it should be. For sure between those times the punishment will depend of the specifics. However all and all we are all sinners and wicked. To God sin is sin and cannot enter his presence or heaven. The penalty of sin is death. Lots may happen between the throne and the fire but the end result is death.
Atleast that is my view on it. I'm still researching like you. Not preaching just sharing 💙
I just listened to part of a question and answer session between Mr. Fudge and Dr. Brown. He said that Scripture was the final authority and we shouldn't go to other sources for answers~!
My question is:
Why the "Hell" should we purchase any of his books~???
Because he researched the scripture and has references that mean we don't have to reinvent the wheel or look through every page of the Bible to find the relevant references.
Also you don't need to purchase his book I personally have got the third edition of the fire that consumes out of interest but you don't need to get it. Personally speaking I am more and more inclined to think the Bible is really ultimately the only book that we need. Ecclesiastes it says that much study wearies the soul. Where is reading the bible refreshes the soul.
This is what seems to be the true Biblical view of "hell" and the lake of fire. By far the most Scriptural backed opinion of the ending for unrepentant sinners.
Amen and I agree..Sadly the eternal burn them sinners for eternity lovers no matter how many scriptures are presented no matter how powerful, and clear the message is on the subject their minds will and never leave the the idea of god will torment his creation for ever people are in love with the idea of eternal torment ...Their mad that God won't burn bob up for eternity for eating too much bacon for breakfast, their mad god won't burn that 13 year old up who said a cussword once their furious
I haven’t watched the whole video but what are your thoughts on apocatestastes (universal reconciliation) in the early church?
Edward came to understand this Conditionalist view while doing research on the subject for someone else for $3,000.00 back in the late 1970s early 80s. His Tradition that he grew up believing was Eternal Conscious Torment. He was quite surprised as he studied that there is very little if any support for that view in Scripture. He did such a complete investigation that he appealed to those who might object to present more Biblical evidence, just in case he may have missed something doing his research. the 1st edition was first published in 1982 and had this appeal toward the end of the book of just over 500 pages. At the time universal reconciliation was not as popular a view as it is today, so he did not address it to the degree he did his own tradition. In 2011 he republished a 3rd edition which did deal with universal reconciliation a bit more. Both are titled "The Fire That Consumes" and both are still available. the 3rd edition would be the one you might want should you want his thinking on the subject.
I happened to ask him if anyone ever came up with an argument he had not dealt with in the 1st Edition. He said no. the 3rd edition has his reply to the 15 books written in opposition by 17 different Authors. he deals with their objections but there was not any position that was new which he had not dealt with in the 1st edition.
The arguments were the same while their objections may have differed a bit.
You said you had not finished the lecture yet in your comment. This Lecture was given about the time the 3rd Edition was about to be released so he may have brought up universal reconciliation in the Lecture or the Q&A session that follows on a separate video.
Edward makes clear at the beginning of the Lecture this subject is not a salvation issue. He and I both have Christian friends holding all three viewpoints. He thinks the Bible is clearest with the view he holds called Conditional Immortality. Both He and i think there are many text that suggest universal reconciliation and many good men teach it. There is more biblical evidence for this view than the more popular traditional view. However the Bible teaches truths in Biblical paradoxes. When you consider all the texts in Scripture as a whole some seem to question taking the texts that suggest universal reconciliation to the degree some do. Paradoxes are seemingly contradictory statements yet both are true. the Bible is filled with them. universal reconciliation is a possibility because some Scriptures suggest it. It is also possible because God's salvation in Christ was not limited to only some people. However other texts teach the wicked "perish" "die" "exist no more" that is the biblical paradox. Edward always based his understanding on what the Bible teaches and since there are texts to the contrary to Universal Salvation he could not in good conscious teach it. But he nor I will be disappointed if God brings it about. Most of my universalist friends agree and say they will not be disappointed if they find Conditional Immortality to be the outcome but we both agree it is not very likely that the traditional view will happen. a good group of Evangelical believers who deal with these issue in greater depth can be found at RethinkingHell.com.
thx!!
Col.1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
Lord help our loved ones that are outside your Kingdom to Hear your call. Give them thirst for the living water and let them come! in the name of Jesus! Amen!
Revelation 22:17 (NKJV)
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
What people think hell is today doesn’t exist
More specifically the most popular way of thinking about hell is not taught in Scripture. it does not happen at death. it is not continual living in writhing pain. it only happens at the end of the age after judgment. it is more merciful than depicted.
@@fleetwd1 it is taught in scripture people just interpret it wrong
@@hoodiejr3 true. The most popular interpretation does not come from careful study of Scripture as Edward points out.
HELL
A word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew sheʼohlʹ and the Greek haiʹdes. In the King James Version the word “hell” is rendered from sheʼohlʹ 31 times and from haiʹdes 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since sheʼohlʹ is also translated 31 times “grave” and 3 times “pit.” In the Douay Version sheʼohlʹ is rendered “hell” 64 times, “pit” once, and “death” once.
In 1885, with the publication of the complete English Revised Version, the original word sheʼohlʹ was in many places transliterated into the English text of the Hebrew Scriptures, though, in most occurrences, “grave” and “pit” were used, and “hell” is found some 14 times. This was a point on which the American committee disagreed with the British revisers, and so, when producing the American Standard Version (1901) they transliterated sheʼohlʹ in all 65 of its appearances. Both versions transliterated haiʹdes in the Christian Greek Scriptures in all ten of its occurrences, though the Greek word Geʹen·na (English, “Gehenna”) is rendered “hell” throughout, as is true of many other modern translations.
Concerning this use of “hell” to translate these original words from the Hebrew and Greek, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . . . It corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’”
Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”
It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.
The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.” The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”-The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.
“Hellfire” has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.” Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at a correct understanding of their true significance.
Beany mane WALL OF TEXT
Hell=Rebirth!
I totally agree with you that's a very comprehensive and factual presentation of the said translation of the words that are sometimes translated hell. Simply transliterating Hebrew and Greek nouns names place names proper names or whatever the case may be is the way to go about it because it keeps things consistent and clearer.
wonderful.....
Is the q and a section of this video posted. Excellent presentation! Thanks for sharing!
Watch this video twice. There is a lot of good info here.
I am a cristian that is a slave to anger envy jealousy i expect to go to hell and die because I no what my sins are and im stuck in them but i don't want to be tortured forever
Power over evil ruling ones life does not come from fear, no matter how graphic the picture of the tortures of hell might be in our mind. We serve a loving God one who does not desire that any perish. He asks us to give him our weakness and offers in return his strength. You need not worry. He is able to save to the uttermost those who trust in him and the provision he has made in his Son. His Son has made an end of sin as Dan 9:24-27 says he would. The very sin you struggle with ended at the cross. He bore your sin and suffered your death. He has taken your weakness and paid the price. will you trust that he has? This is the victory that overcomes the world even our faith. Simply trusting God at his Word.
If you were a genuine Christian, actually born again, you would not have the desire to sin and have the power to overcome. God gives the holy Spirit to them that obey Him (Acts 5:32), and we receive power when the Spirit comes on us (Acts 1:8).
Dear Brother, you are not like the apostates who deny their sin. You are not alone in struggling against sin. This is what it means to be a Christian. This is what we do, we take up our cross and follow Him. Remember what our LORD Jesus taught us. The man in the back of the church pleading "God have mercy on me a sinner" went home justified. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. You are close to the kingdom of God. Some chains are difficult to break. "These only come out by prayer and fasting". Have you done this? Humble yourself before the LORD Jesus with prayer and fasting. I promise you the Spirit of the LORD will correct you, redeem you, and forgive you of your sins. "His mercy endureth forever". Don't give up trusting Jesus for your salvation. He who Endures until the end Shall be Saved.
@@godisnotmocked1345 are you saying, saved ppl dont sin or have a desire to sin?
@@SticksNkicks No. A born again soul is no longer a slave to sin. And the more closely we walk with the Lord, taking our thoughts captive to Christ (2 Cor. 10:5) the less we will sin.
Bravo
God bless the man in this video for bringing truth and light to the dark minds.
Theres a lot of reasoning against ideas which stem from believing that a God of love who loves people more than they know even more than there parents do (i know there are exeptions interms of parents loving their children lol ) could throw them into hell to suffer in eternal torment to such a degree as likened to being in a laver pitt. I have read the old testament once and the new twice and have read many a forums for and against annihilationalism and many scriptures verses supporting and opposing it and can see both sides of the argument and in this case scripture is truly subject to interpretation which the bible quotes it isnt . But puting this aside , one argument of which i have many against eternal conscious torment is that it would seem that the devil would have won in the end if the vast majority will be going to hell (as it mentions in the bible that only a few will be saved ) - its like a battle between 2 tribes the side that has the most soldiers remaining after the battle wins right - so has God lost then if in the finality of things . Even in the bible it mentions there will be no more death or misery as the former things have passed away - how van that be when there is a realm where the majority of Gods creation are suffering for a finite number of sins forever without any chance of parole - and would the righteous be eternally happy knowing that some of the people they loved on earth were suffering in such torment - What sort of victory would that be and what sort of God would allow that. I wouldnt allow my worst enemy to suffer forever in such torment and misery . It also mentions in revelation that the righteous will walk on the ashes of the wicked - how can that be if they are suffering in torment in a lake of fire somewhere ? Paul mention the wages of sin is death - not conscious torment forever. If i had the power to end someones suffering even if i disliked them but let them suffer forever just because of my morals i would be classed as a psychopath and a sadistic tyrant - but not God?
The quote from Tertullian," Mat 10:28 does not mean that God will really destroy the soul, for souls are immortal and cannot be despised. " Hmm, what is missing from this quote? No biblical proof to validate what he said. Not one verse cited that expressed anything he said. It was something he believed, but cannot prove that it is biblical. And how many of you believe what that the soul is immortal? It was something he said, cannot be proven from Scripture, yet is still held to be true. All of you trolls who disagree and are angry with this video are perfect examples of all of the goats who attend church buildings. Mr Fudge gave a logical, well balanced lecture, using verses, defining words, describing how the Jews used these words, including Jesus, and you just flat out reject anything he said. You yourselves dont show any biblical evidence that proves him wrong, you just tell and scream that he is wrong! You reprobates would have been in the crowd yelling, "Crucify him, crucify him." Your life motto must be,"I believe what I want to believe, don't confuse me with the facts. Dont use truth or logic with me." How pathetic! How lame! How ignorant, How stupid!
@jesusLostChildren777 there is a broader explanation,but there is simply no room for that under this video,also difficult to explain because this is a big story.if somebody desire the complete study you can ask my.
@gtrjunky lol? i shove that in the text?? is dead not living or dead means living? it is so very clear the text say that the lake of fire is the second dead?? 20:14 .14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. so tell my if you are right how can the be dead and the same time tortured forever? do you see any contradiction? plz explain how somebody live if soul and body is destroyed in the lake of fire and the same time tortured forever:)
I thank the merciful and just God Most High for the intellectally honest research you have undertaken, and the spirit he gave you to accept the results. The exhaustive, trailblazing efforts on your part have been a blessing and encouragement to those of us who have been led to the same conclusions, but are not as well-informed, well-studied, or tactful (guilty!) as you have been in you even-handed treatment of this matter. Thanks to God that he is restoring the integrity of his great name among his believers, and followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whose obedience we are granted life after the resurrection of the dead, to put on immortal, and imperishable; and that God's holy name is being brought back from ignominy, after centuries of being disparaged by this cruelest of human doctrines, which has wreaked incalculable damage to both God and man.
Edit: Alas, i had not heard that he passed. This legacy will endure, perhaps in the world to come i can tell him what it meant to me.
i can pass your good words on to his widow and children. thanks for your thoughtfulness.
Excellent described! I fully agree and commented here some year ago. Thanks.
Fudge makes a good case. I think a case can be made from scripture for both positions. It's not a salvation issue. I read the book "2 views of Hell" showing both. Robert A. Peterson - the traditional view. Edward W. Fudge - the alternative view. Fudge was more compelling here, I think because Fudges' demeanor was so gentle. Peterson & Fudge were very combative in the book. I am moving away from the traditional view.
annihilation is 'over-kill'; eternal torment is false. God is able to make a change in all... just through His presence. We will all see Him one day. When Christ returns or in the "2nd resurrection" and when we all see Him... there will be no unbelievers.
I'm surprised Edward doesn't use Ecclesiastes as much. Combining Ecclesiastes 3,4, and 9 brings a very clear example of the fate of the wicked. Remember Isaiah 28:10: Precept must be upon precept; line upon line; here a little, there a little
I do not believe in hell at all. At all. I can't find hell anywhere in the Bible. I find the word "hell" but none of the original Hebrew or Greek words means a place of eternal torment. Here is what I believe: ✴ _And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses_ *[ dead bodies ]* _of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched…._ (Isaiah 66: 24, KJV) (Quoted by Mark at 9: 48)
the kingpin of the ECT doctrine is in revelation where descriptions of "eternal torment" and "no rest day or night" etc are used. The following simple but pretty obvious argument, to me, largely disarms this view:
-the beast who is thrown in the lake of fire is an empire, not a sentient being (not really disputed by anyone with adequate biblical knowledge)
-since an inanimate power cant experience pain, "tormenting" it (βασανισθησονται) must mean shaming and destroying what it stands for.
-babylon's fall is also "torment" (the same root word βασανισμον) and it is described as being destroyed with fire.
-sinners and satan are sent to the exact same place as the beast, and so their torment (same word) is the same type.
-everything in hell will have "no rest" from everlasting contempt (disrespect, disregard). the beast will never be taken seriously or followed again.
-saying that there is also eternal conscious suffering would be adding more to the text than is present.
It's there metaphorically for annihilation.
You won't find what you're not looking for
@@lamontfaulkner5090 All you had to do to correct me was to supply a Scripture, any Scripture, which teaches a place where disembodied humans will be tortured for all eternity. I could not help but notice that you did not do so.
@@lamontfaulkner5090 P. S. My original post supplied a Scripture for you. It explained what will happen in Gehenna (translated "hell" in some versions). I could not help but notice that you chose to pretend that that verse is not in the Bible.
Gen 3
2The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
The rest of you can repeat what Satan said about this issue if you like, but I'm going to believe what God said about it.
Also, our Lord died to pay the full price for our sins, He wasn't tortured eternally.
God said "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in THE DAY that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:17).
They did not die physically on the day that they ate the fruit, so they had to have died spiritually. Satan was trying to convince them that they did not have to be concerned about spiritual death after eating the fruit. It is also clear to me that Jesus endured more than just physical death on the cross since it was HIS SOUL that was made an offering for sin (See Isaiah 53:10) when it was "poured out...unto death" (Isaiah 53:12).
Clearly, the wages of sin is not just physical death, but it is spiritual death as well. That is what "the second death" mentioned in Revelation 20:15 is. Not soul annihilation, and not a physical torment either, but eternal spiritual death, which is simply the result of being separated from God forever. In Matthew 25:41, Jesus referred those who will be separated from Him as "cursed". So I do not believe that those who are cursed would want to live with Him anyway.
He will simply give them what they want, which is separation from Himself. And since the wages of sin is also spiritual death (as revealed by the phrase "dead in trespasses and sins" - Ephesians 2:1), I believe that it was that death that Christ "tast[ed] for everyone" (Hebrews 2:9) as He "bore our sins in His own body on the tree" (1 Peter 2:24). We may not fully understand it all, but the Bible gives us enough info to let us know that the penalty that Jesus paid on the cross was more than just a physical penalty - it was a spiritual penalty as well. Physical death alone would not be the full price.
Tom Veil As you probably know, the Hebrew for day in that Scripture does not necessarily refer to a specific day. And as I'm sure you know, various translations do not render it that way. And I'm also sure you know that the term "in the day" does not typically refer to a specific day, but rather to a "time".
Would Adam and Eve have lived forever before they sinned? Yes. Were they no longer immortal after they sinned? Yes. Did they in fact die at some point? Yes. Did God tell them if they disobeyed they would be tormented eternally? No.
Do you think it only fair that if eternal torment was the lot for them if they disobeyed, that God might have mentioned that?
And as you should know, our spirit has no life, if we are not in Christ.
You can spin all you like, but you can't change the facts. Echo Satan's lie if you will. I'll have no part of that.
caelachyt
I think you are totally missing Tom Veil's argument
Breckmin
I did.
Paul Callahan
So you believe in eternal unequal punishment now?
I heard about a man who had his dog trained at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma. When he brought the dog home he told it to heel (heal) and the dog hit him on the forehead and knocked him down.
e = 2.7182818284590 🤣🤣🤣👍
@gtrjunky I do ignore a lot of what you say however I would not like this sight to turn into a strife filled arena like some of the others. I really believe Mr. Fudge has a teaching that the world needs to hear!!!