Autism As A Gender?
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Obviously autism isn't a gender but I needed a catchy title and that's currently what im going for and its still pride month so be nice
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Previous to being aware of autism I also found nonbinary to be not right because it implied I was in the middle of two things that seemed kinda fake/dumb, and I came up with agender. Now I am like 75% sure I’m autistic and that makes my gender retroactively seem rather incompletely explored. Now agender sounds mostly right but really I’ve gone back to confused.
This is EXACTLY how I feel about it!! I usually call myself agender
Ok so been a couple of days, obviously I got emotional because this perfectly hit a trauma point, let's try again?
To be clear, I have two issues with this that are closely related.
My first issue is with saying that the entirety of gender, all its aspects, is a mere social construct with no basis in objective reality. If gender identity is not a real thing, then trans people are not really the gender they say they are, and allies are just humoring us.
My second issue is with the statement that gender identity is not something you were born with, but something that is molded into you through the way you are raised. If that is the case, then changing the way a child is raised could theoretically change their gender identity, ergo conversion therapy can work, at least until a child is 'developed,' whatever that means.
I have no problems with anything else you said. Not understanding gendered social norms as an aut!stic person makes perfect sense to me.
So aspects of gender huh?
*Gender expression* - what your gender seems to be to other people, clothing, mannerisms, hair etc. It's socially constructed. Differs per culture. No objective basis in reality.
*Gender norms* - the unwritten societal rules for how someone of a certain gender is 'supposed' to behave. Socially constructed. Differs per culture. No objective basis in reality. Not an aspect of a person's identity, but an aspect of the culture they live in.
*Gender label* - the words you choose to use to describe your gender identity. Socially constructed. Differs per culture. No objective basis in reality.
*Gender identity* - a sense of belonging to the group of people we call men, women, both or neither. An inner perception of oneself as a man or a woman, both or neither. A lens through which to view the world with from birth which decides which gender an infant imitates because it sees itself as 'one of those', and which gender it doesn't. All cultures have this. All cultures have people whose gender identity does not align with their agab. All evidence points to this deep-seated sense of self not changing through socialization (and researchers tried REALLY hard to do just that, e.g. David Reimer, that cloacal exstrophy study, like seriously quite a lot of even cis people fell victim to the idea that this was possible). It appears to be innate, at least for the majority of people. It is no more socially constructed than your spleen is.
*Gender incongruence* - gender identity does not match agab, gendered social position or physical s3x. Innate unless genderfluid.
Cis people tend to be like 'but I can't feel a gender identity so it's not a real thing!' so here's my pre-emptive response just in case. Not everyone has direct access to knowledge of this sense of belonging/self-image. It's a very subtle thing. Not knowing about it doesn't necessarily mean it's not there. Your gender identity tends to only make itself known when something is wrong, in the same way that I can't feel my appendix right now but if something was wrong with it, you bet I'd feel it. I know this analogy is kinda ridiculous but gender dysphoria essentially functions as your nerve-cells telling your brain 'AARGH PROBLEM HERE! PAIN!' when you have appendicitis. If nothing is wrong with your gender/appendix, your nerve cells kinda just tell you nothing. (blabla no you don't need dysphoria to be trans blabla, can explain that one, but won't if it's unnecessary because it's long)
So I said 'gender identity is no more socially constructed than your spleen is'. In a way the concept of 'spleen' is socially constructed, because all words, all human concepts are. Words, concepts and categories don't exist outside of culture/language. Only things do. Your spleen exists regardless of whether we have a word for it. And my gender identity does too.
Emotions are socially constructed to a degree. Not all cultures have the same categories of emotions. Some cultures have words for emotions you would never have imagined existed. But that doesn't mean emotions are entirely socially constructed and not objectively real underneath those differing descriptions. It just means different cultures describe the phenomenon of emotion differently. The same base experience can be conceptualized of, explained, in a million different ways. The same is true for gender identity. It is a real thing that different cultures conceptualize of differently. Saying that it is *only* socially constructed is as illogical to me as saying that emotions are *only* socially constructed.
If you don't believe that gender identity is a real thing that exists regardless of whether a culture has words to describe it, if you think it is *only* a social construct and it therefore wouldn't exist if we hadn't socially constructed it, well I mean, then you don't believe that transness really actually exists. Then to you gender identity is only about as real as money, only existing because culture decided so. What is trans-ness to you then? Preferring one set of gender norms to another and deciding to switch sides? Aesthetic preference? If I'm not actually born gender incongruent, and gender identity isn't really a thing, then is my proclaimed identity just ideology, just something I and some allies believe to be true, just some funny cultural thing that some westerners do?
If you believe gender identity to be no more than internalized gender norms (I see you removed the heart from that comment so I'm not sure you believe that anymore), then what is your theory for why trans people exist? Why did we not internalize the gender norms we were supposed to, why did we not develop the gender identity we logically should have, given the way we were raised? Preference? Influence? Trauma? Happenstance? Confusion?
I am 100% sure that I would be dysphoric even if I'd never seen another human in my entire life. I wouldn't experience social dysphoria (the dysphoria related to your social position and the way others perceive your gender), but physical dysphoria? 100% definitely absolutely I would. And I'm not saying that's the case for every trans person because we're all different, but it is the case for a lot of us.
The map my brain has of my body mismatches with my body's actual layout. It feels like phantom limbs, like a proprioception issue. It feels like tumors that you know on a deep instinctual level shouldn't be there. The first millisecond of that feeling is consistently surprise, like 'huh wtf is this doing here?' That feeling is not social. There is nothing socially constructed about it. I felt that way long before I knew that trans people existed, long before I had words to describe it.
I don't know how else to convey to you that my transness is real outside of like my own 'silly confusion about gender' or 'society's silly hangups about gender' or something. I guess I'm just really exhausted with people doubting the objective existence of that feeling, the objective existence of my gender identity and my knowledge of it. I'm really really tired of people implying or telling me that's it's all just in my head. It's all just beliefs, concepts, words, a cultural phenomenon, nothing more. It's not real. It has been incredibly invalidating. And yes conversion therapy is a gigantic part of why I'm so tired of it, because wow they found so many creative ways to tell me exactly that.
Like I get it. Cis people don't feel it. They're not forced to think about it every day of their lives. They don't notice. It's easy for them to believe it's all just in people's heads, all fake. It doesn't smack them in the face every day.
And wouldn't it be nice if gender was all fake and we could just get rid of it? Wouldn't that be great for equality? Wouldn't that be politically super convenient? Given that I'm nonbinary, if society stopped doing all the gendering that would be great for me personally too. But that's not the way humans work. Most humans gravitate towards one another based on shared experience, shared emotion, shared worldview, shared understanding, and gender identity is one of the things that provides those things. People relate to others differently based on gender, either from a place of being an insider or being an outsider, difference or sameness, sharing experiences or not, being able to easily relate or having to make a leap. If we Thanos-snapped gender out of existence, people would simply reinvent it. Culture can only fill in *how* it gets reinvented, how the norms and expressions and labels that go along with gender will take shape, but gender will exist no matter what, because gender identity is inherent to humans, and it *will* reemerge.
This is really well written and makes so much sense. The most coherent explanation of gender I've come across so far. I'm used to just hearing circular definitions and that everything's just socially constructed, but you perfectly put the trans experience and dysphoria into words. I'm cis and I never think about my gender, but if I had a male body I would probably be uncomfortable and want to change it, not because of societal norms but because having a female body feels right to me.
Coming here almost a year late, but wanted to share a couple of philisophical/gender-theory notes that are pretty relevant.
I'm not an expert, so I think looking into the underlying philosophy/gender theory would be much better then anything I would have to say. Philosophy Tube's video on Judith Butler is likely the best (well at least the one I've seen most recently) resource I could share: ruclips.net/video/QVilpxowsUQ/видео.htmlsi=J4keeweTNJd5b4fK
My notes: (only really including as a response in support of OPs original statements you disagreed with... especially considering what was said @t=27)
Re: "saying that the entirety of gender, all its aspects, is a mere social construct with no basis in objective reality" ... A social construct in itself is 'something' and thus it wouldn't matter if it has a basis in objective reality or not... physical sex characteristics and physical dysphoria/incongruence could be compared to body dysmorphia in many ways but it's the association w/ the social construct that is gender that makes it dysphoria, but that doesn't mean the uncomfortability wouldn't exist if you never see another human...
Re: "gender identity is not something you were born with, but something that is molded into you through the way you are raised"... I agree that this could lend to the concern about use in conversion therapy, but I don't think that's what the intention nor default meaning would be... my understanding is that it is around 5-6 (or much later for some of us) that we come to get a grasp/understanding of how we "fit" into the societal structure we are born into and for many, any incongruence from the default/ideal is ignored (I really like that splein analogy) but it is then the societal expectations/boxes that will do the 'molding' into a particular way of being...
Personal Bias: I'm personally a gender abolitionist/anti-segregationist, thus I wish that the thing we know as gender were just as important to society as right- vs left-handed ness... If it matters (which I wish it didn't to have an intellectual discussion) I'd identify w/ auti-gender/nueroqueer and unfortunately also experience w/ the "fun" experience that is both physical and social dysphoria...
It sounds like you’re more so explaining gender expression as opposed to gender identity, you can see what are considered the societal binary norms of expression, but with identity it’s more of a feeling and the way you experience yourself, while the way you express your gender can but doesn’t have to line up with what you identify as. No need to fit yourself into any box, though it’s great to explore and try things out and just see whatever makes you feel comfortable in yourself. The labels and language absolutely bring people together through shared experiences and help give words to what you feel which can be very validating in itself, though I find they are also just words that help others understand a bit and after that they don’t have to be something to dwell on, as long as you feel content in yourself that’s all that matters
it sounds like you're more so explaining neurotypicality
@@bhan5629 Interesting interpretation, I can see how it may look that way. I’m not trying to discount anyone’s experience and feelings and I also do relate a lot to how Dana explains it here, and relate to pretty much all of these videos, especially with all of the family trauma lol. I just find it important to consider both identity and expression as things that can exist and line up as one or separately and just acknowledge the spectrum of all of that. I’m agreeing, that it makes so much sense for the binaries that neurotypical people often times naturally fall into and/or align with, to not line up for neurodivergent people because of the ways we view the world and don’t feel natural to fit into those, they don’t matter so much to us and can be really limiting, restrictive, and harmful. I’m sorry if my original comment came across or felt at all invalidating, my intention was the opposite, and I loved hearing Dana bring this up. I’m speaking from only my perspective as someone who struggled with my identity a lot growing up and am finally in a more content place where I don’t feel a need to figure myself out anymore and know how to feel valid in myself no matter how much others may tell me my experience is wrong or not real, and having had tried to force myself to adhere to what I was “supposed to be,” for so long, and now I feel so much more free after coming into myself, this was only after finally accepting and being diagnosed as autistic and adhd, with ptsd as an adult and finally embracing and no longer rejecting myself as a gender neutral non binary person, for the sake of those around me, and learning what it means to live as myself. I relate a lot to what Dana is explaining here and also feel as though we both have different valid experiences that bring the contexts for how we’ve experienced ourselves and that’s great. So my comment was just from the point of view as someone who just wanted to also acknowledge one tiny piece of this experience that I thought could have also been brought up, which is how identity and expression can be two distinct things and how that can also be an added complication for neurodivergent people, or something we just feel more comfortable not needing to adhere to due to how we don’t find the norms of all of it important or necessary, anyone can like and feel however they do and that’s a beautiful and important thing to have such natural variance in the way all of our minds work. I do also completely see how without that context my original comment could be seen as limiting, I didn’t mean it that way, so thank you for making me aware of that, again, I just wanted to point out one small part of the experience after feeling freer and no longer so pulled to have to figure it out anymore because I do accept myself and I wish love and acceptance for everyone of all identities to come to a point of feeling content in themselves in their own time, which is a huge privilege and something to be grateful for when we can finally find that in a world that wasn’t built for us and wants to put us all in little limiting boxes and is still such a dangerous place to fully exist as oneself in many places.
i relate to this so much!! i feel like this about my gender too
I feel the same way about my gender identity, I just don't feel any lol
The only difference is that I do experience dysphoria, particularly about my chest, always have. That makes it even more confusing. Like, am I trans? Apparently, to some degree. But also, I don't see myself as any gender, I don't get it. Why does my brain have to be so bothered by two lumps on my chest? xD Ugh, it's annoying.
My behaviours get classified as "masculine", online I am almost always read as male. Irl as female because of my body, but still people seem to be confused or bothered by me because I do not act like a woman is supposed to?
Sometimes I just love to confuse people about "my gender". It's so funny to see people get hung up on something so insignificant xD
I am probably non-binary but not the norm of it. I have always felt like my brain was half female and half male. I am not really girly but I present as female. Since I was born in a female body I just live with it. I don't want to be a man either.
In Norwegian, both "gender" and "sex" translates to "kjønn." It's confusing. Though I do consider being autistic a part of my identity, without really thinking too hard about it.
I discovered that I exist at the sort of triple-point of pansexuality (attraction without regard to gender), bisexuality (actually a particular subset, omnisexuality - attraction to all genders), and demisexuality (attraction requires attachment). Sort of a sexuality of "It's complicated" - hence the term "Autisexual" (an experience of sexuality that is inextricably linked due to various factors with the experience of being autistic). I feel a similar way about being autigender. I keep looking and looking for someone describing their relationship to and experience of gender that matches mine, and I feel like I'm having to dig really deeply, and the more I dig, the less similar it gets. Like a kind of fractal or something. You know you might be autigender if you've been digging around trying to figure out if you feel more connected to genderflux or genderfluid, and whether you're more more girlflux or femmefluid, and then you wonder if some other kind of xenogender might fit, but you can't find ANYTHING. Soooo... yup.
Can I say that gender is a style of raising a child which influences you as a whole through the life ? Like when you are raised as boy/man it is one style of life with everything what comes with it and the same for being raised as girl/woman. It is social construct imprinted in brain. Just a fun fact: it is interesting for me that in English non-binary pronouns are they/them and in my language czech we use it / its
99% of the time i give gender no thought whatsoever. As far as i am concerned i am just myself and i cannot fathom others' attachment to it. I think of myself as gender transcendent if i think of it at all. It has no meaning for me and it seems so oppressive to to me to be boxed or labelled. Of course i realise that to most people gender is extremely important and i respect that
I feel quite similarly about gender. To me, asking my gender is like a vegetarian what their favorite cut of steak is. It's just not something they would care to have a preference about (ignoring any moral opposition to avoid eating meat of any type).
People seem to just assume that everyone identifies as some gender (even if fluid) and there's no "I don't care" or N/A option. I was born male and the majority of the time I'm identified by others as a man. I'm perfectly fine with that simply because it's the most convenient option for me. Since I don't really have a pronoun preference, going with the one that others use to describe me seems perfectly natural.
The only real useful thing I see of gender is allowing languages to quickly distinguish more than one person without restating names repeatedly. It widens languages from having 1 "slot" (they) to refer to a previously mentioned person to having at least 3 (he/she/they). Apart from that, I don't really see any other use for gender, but that's my perspective as I guess an autigender person.