Enjoying the videos. Thanks. Only stopped printing in the darkroom a couple of years ago so it’s still very recent to me. I love baryta papers for b&w printing. They “feel” right as well as looking great. On a visit to the Ilford/Harman factory a few years ago they told us that their baryta paper was basically the standard Ilford Multigrade Fibre darkroom paper but with an inkjet receptive layer on top instead of the emulsion. The base paper is quite hard to get hold of and there are a very small number of companies in the world who can make it. Their own brand Harman paper has now been discontinued but I know that they are the people behind several other companies baryta paper.
Nice video. In trying to share with the user your great experience and insights, I would add that the essence of "baryta" is that the baryta finish of paper makes it significantly whiter. And the baryta finish is very smooth - in my old school terms almost "glossy" and underline "almost". Being more white under the same light, this type of paper has a greater dynamic range. If your printer's ink and the software behind that, with your adjustments, can get the blackest black out of each image, then, even with the glossy finish, the whitest white (*) being brighter than in matte paper, you get more dynamic range. Some photographers can go on-and-on about the depiction of unsharp areas in an image (which doesn't help when you must make money off portraits or weddings). Others can go on-and-on about gradation and contrast. Well, "baryta" belongs with the latter. And is totally justified in all cases to take that into account. It does not make for nicer background blur, or more flattering faces but can add to drama with much better contrast, or vividness. If you are about less saturated, watercolour-like (I mean aquarelle, wet-in-wet, not kiddies watercolour), very soft tones and gradations, use matte paper. And potentially take your images into Photoshop to convert them into 32 bits gradation resolution (***). (*) In colour theory there is no "whiter white". White is 100% reflectance of the entire humanly visible spectrum and as such has no colour and no gradation. The opposite applies to black. In this theory there are no "blacks" and no "whites" as the Mudbricks (**) lead you to believe. (**) a mudbrick is also called an adobe. (***) When you are naive in digital photography, you think "14 bits" is what you get from your shots as your camera was set to 14 bits. That's not at all true. Because the sensor, the photosites (the real sensors) therein, is colour-blind, there's a filter grid over the sensor that cuts visible light down to either red, or green, or blue. As each photosite provides one data element in your raw file, these elements have one colour (AKA monochromatic as mono=single, one). On your computer display, this would look like 100% luminance noise and 100% colour noise, if you had an application to render it at that. In order to get RGB pixels, a process is applied called "raw processing" which has to guess the missing colours. That process is mathematically precise and repeatable, but it still is "wild-assed guessing". I'll skip the explanation how this, but remember that all noise you see in the result from raw processing must be blamed on the "wild-assed guessing" in the first place, and only to the camera in the second. DxO Mark blames it on the sensor and that's {male bovine excrement] - why? Because their sister legal entity DxO sell raw processing software and commercially you should not blame it on that technology. So what happens to the bits? If we assume that DxO Mark uses the best possible approach in processing of raw images for their measurements, then you can see from their marks that the "best cameras" have a colour space of 27 bits at a dynamic range of about 15 EV, today. This means that 14 bits acquired from the sensor - the photosites in the sensor are analogue - in your camera have become 27. Are 13 of the 27 guessed? Well, it's worse. Those 27 will be 9+9+9 if evenly divided between R, G, and B, and in fact each of those 9 is the result of wild-assed guessing, entirely. In, say, Lightroom Classic (LrC, that uses Adobe Camera Raw - ACR - for raw processing), those 27 bits are at the level of LrC's internal data representation. When you export to JPEG, it's converted into 8+8+8 with lossy data compression. "We" do not know what happens precisely between LrC and your monitor (e.g. in the video driver layer), or for that matter, the printer driver layer when we print, rather than display. In Photoshop we can convert our images into 16 bits or 32 bits per channel. This gives a much finer gradation. It does not improve dynamic range, but it improves the finesse in the colour scales. If the colour scales become visible, then we call that "banding". Generally they do not become visible but we end up with less precise colour or grey nuances. The extrapolation made in Ps is very smart and even on a very good but still 8+8+8 bit monitor, the difference is noticeable. Subtle, but noticeable, for the critical eye.
I still remember the difference between our air dried gloss prints and the mirror gloss ones from our drum glazer so I luv the Baryta papers - especially the Hahnemuhle cotton rag versions. Thanks for the B&W printing mode tip!
Hello Keith. First and foremost, a wonderful channel and series of videos on everything to do with modern day printing. Quite amazing your wealth of expertise. I have one request. Could you possibly do an information sheet, pamphlet, on packing, types of packaging, and shipping for large paper prints (larger than A3 size). Thank you for all the work and time you much put into this channel. Daniel.
Thanks I'm afraid I just don't know much about this - for 20+ years I've just rolled prints up in archival tissue paper and shipped them in tubes. The largest tubes were 8" diameter and five feet long, with a second narrower tube inside and the print/tissue inside a polythene bag [a series of prints shipped to the US] 'Tubes' is my only answer - I don't ship anything framed or matted [local delivery/collection only]
Hello again Keith. Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I'll give the tube method a try. Finally, I have no idea how you find the time for all the amazing work you do. Thanks again. @@KeithCooper
Thank you Keith for another brilliant video. I recently got back into landscape photography after several years and have bought a P700 for making prints of old images and of new work. Your videos and articles have been so helpful and informative and are very much appreciated! You appear to have a video and article for any questions that come to me. I’ve made a few prints so far that have turned out beautifully (to my eye, at least!) and even when they don’t come out quite right the first time, I still find the process of making the print to be a worthwhile and fun learning experience. Thanks for all your help and advice! Andy
Baryta paper may well be the best inkjet paper around. It was a very good paper in the days of the wet darkroom, apart from the fact that these papers soaked up lots of chemicals during developing and (especially) fixing. And you had to flush all of them out which took close to an hour. And then the images needed to dry, the glossy on a hot press. And then the dried image would stick to the gloss-plate. I have no real fond memories of the wet darkroom. It was better than sending rolls to a lab, but the post-processing of exposed material was not very welcome. Then came Ilford with Ilfospeed (if my memory serves me well), PE coated paper that did not suck up chemicals. The washing was only to clear the emulsion layer. This made work a lot more friendly. But wet ink sprayed on Baryta is probably the best way to go back to B/W images, without the hassle of wet silverbased papers. Baryta will just immediately dry after a squirt of inkjet fluid (measured in nano litres). New applications for an old paper. Nice.
Enjoy your videos, Keith. (I note today, that your audio seems much improved.) I'm also enjoying a new P900, using Epson luster paper. Very pleasing, so far.
Thanks Keith for your always informative videos. I love my P900 and have been using Palo Duro Baryta fiber 300 from Red River Paper (USA) for getting awesome black and whites and color images. I use it in print competitions and gallery shows. Tested other paper types but baryta is always my favorite.
I'm using the paper too from Red River Paper that i bought at the factory here in Dallas. I am most impressed by it. They recently had it on sell in the 4x6 and the 8.5 x 11 size. Excellent paper!
Hi Keith, thanks for another great video. I have used Epson Traditional Photo Paper on my P900, but I have noticed significant scratching from the daisy wheels that feed the paper - this is not a problem with Ilford Smooth Pearl, but I did noticed some scratching on Epson Cold Press Natural (although less than with TPP). My previous P600 didn't use daisy wheels and didn't scratch these papers. Epson, in a relatively recent firmware update, provide a special mode where you feed sensitive papers like TPP in "backwards". You lose an inch or so at the top and bottom of the print. I don't find this an entirely acceptable solution as I like to print to nearly full size of the paper (usually A2), but the scratching is reduced.
Ah, good old TPP... I tested this when TPP first came out and decided it just wasn't a paper I'd choose. Too fragile for my liking. There are many far better papers out there now IMHO (many in the Innova range for example). You are right - it shouldn't happen, but it's partly why I always say that with a new printer, you re-evaluate your paper choices. If a paper doesn't work, it doesn't work, move on... Yes, easier said than done - but partly based on having so many printers here to test over the years
Even after all the marketing I still prefer the feel and look of Baryta papers for prints, both colour and B&W. Your points however are very well made.
Canson has a baryta matt paper in their offering (baryta photographique II mat) . It must be printed as a matt paper with the MK cartridge. It is very smooth and nicely white but as expected from a matt paper it doesn't meet the Dmax of their regular glossy equivalent. However it is a good alternative on my old R3000 as I don't have to switch inks between the baryta and the rag papers.
Again, Thx for sharing experience and valuable information. Since. you last reply on my issue of "off centre" print on A3 - I solved the issue. But quiz : Do you find it necessary to "tweek" any brightness / contrast " or even toning in ABW, since most certainly I edit my DNG files (RAW ) thru Lightroom- then additionally retouch / editing in Photoshop, often now use Nik Silver Efex as filter in PS OR after exporting file back to Lightroom (LR ) I make virt copy and run this thru Silver efex. 1 ) Do you recommend exporting from LR/PS with "add sharpening for PRINT" ( low/Std etc) when sending image to EPL. 2) Would it be sound to NOT tweek in ABW -eg. toning ( since this has been "perfected" already in the editing. I tend to send jpg at max quality when going to make a print. Also let EPL setting to "dark" ( since recommended by watching som similar videos from Epson )... Any thoughts, Keith ? ( I find that the quiestion is relevant without being connected to paper types ( I use 50 % Canson Edition etch rag / and also will try Baryta being inspired by you ! ) Thanks again and sincere regards from Norway . PS I visited and attended a workshop in Leicester back in 1999 - but this was in Vascular Surgery for clogged up arteries in the legs with the Master in Leicester Amman Bolia - who then came to Norway and got our Vascular society up n going in the fine art of PTA ( percutaneous transluminal angiplasty ) - Russell J
Thanks First up, I have no place for Lightroom on any computer of mine :-) :-) In general I'll do some adjustments in with the raw file and then edit in photoshop, including conversion to B&W by whatever means seems appropriate for the lens [SFX is but one option] Sharpening is always image and print size dependent - there is no place for 'sharpen for print' settings ;-) If printing with ABW, the default mode is used - BUT I will have tested the paper for linearity/tone issues before using it. See here to start www.northlight-images.co.uk/black-and-white-printing-with-the-p700/ Then look at my B&W printing workflow videos www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/#p7
Is the Epson's Legacy Baryta II Paper comparable to the Epson Traditional that you are using in the video? I can't seem to find the Traditional on Epsons website. Thank you for all your videos.
I'm looking at their website in the U S. Just came out in May of 2023. Can you recommend a paper and specific brand that is now available comparable to what you are using in the video?@@KeithCooper
I like the smell of my Ilford Baryta paper. Smells like developer ( how sad 😊) but it's good stuff. Does remind me of Ilford FB multigrade. I agree that the black and white mode is very good on my 3880. Thanks for a based informative video Keith.
Very helpful video, as always. Thank you so much for that and for your invaluable articles. It's a shame that all the efforts Epson and Canon put in ink "formula" are still unable to produce pure black prints and need other colors. How do you explain that ?
Ah, my expertise is not in ink chemistry I'm afraid ;-) They are better than they were, but remember that the blacks are part of the whole (colour) ink set, so 'perfect' B&W is just part of the objective.
Honest answer - it worked just fine via the top ;-) The only time I deliberately used the front load was to print on board. That said, I believe I do have a P900 video showing the use of papers through the front - it would depend on the paper and the surface coating.
@@KeithCooper That's relief. I never print on board. My favourite go to paper is Epson Hot Pressed Bright 17x22 Matte for BW. After watching the above video I may try baryta paper. Thanks again!
Thank you Keith for this video. In ABW... how does the printer know which black (photo or matt) should be used? I think it's different for different papers.
Hello Keith. I just found your channel while doing research on a printer upgrade from my Epson R3000. Your videos are enjoyable and educational. Now that you have been using the Epson SureColor P700 and P900 printers for over a year, can you tell me if you have any concerns for someone looking to upgrade to one of these? I mostly print for my own enjoyment and light competition within my camera club. I print color and black and white equally and I use a variety of papers from various sources. I consider myself quite knowledgeable and I firmly believe these models will meet my needs, but I have some concerns based on the quality control issues that are evident from several online reviews. Thanks in advance for any reply.
When the first printers arrived, I was very clear that if you found something amiss, it should go right back to Epson - one of my samples was damaged in shipping.. The one I'm testing at the moment (I only borrow them - I'm not allowed to live in a printer warehouse) is a new one and works without issue.
I have had the P900 for three months and have printed a substantial number of print both colour and B/W. I too had read the quality control issues before I bought the printer but I have not had any problem regarding feed of paper and quality of print. I use Epson ink and a number of different paper manufacturers primarily Epson. I used Epson Print Layout and Qimage Ultimate to set the parameters and ICC profiles for my photos. I once had an R3000, replaced by a P600, then by a P900 as I wanted to be able to do A2 prints.
@@KeithCooper Thanks Keith. My first P900 arrived this week and failed during initial ink charge with Error 000044. I am in the process of doing an exchange. Lucky me. Fingers crossed for a better copy next time around.
Thanks for great tutorial Keith! Question: I am printing on Canson baryta photographique II matte paper, and Canson recommends a setting not present in my printers menu, namely "Ultra Premium Presentation Matte". Would you stick to Premium lustre as in your tutorial or go for Baryta in the printer settings (using the correct Canson profile of course)? (Photos are with colour, but with low saturation.)
UPP Matte is the same as the Epson enhanced Matte or Epson Archival matte type settings AFAIK It likely needs matt black ink, so definitely not lustre However it's not a paper I've ever seen, so I couldn't say for sure
@@KeithCooper Sure made a big improvement over the two other settings I tried (baryta and lustre). Thank you very much! Ps: still find the Photorag (cotton) paper from Canson to be more vivid, so perhaps they need to put some work into a better profile for their baryta paper for the Epson SC P900. Thanks again!!
There is a horizontal offset setting I believe - i's that or setting custom margins. I don't have the printer here any more so can't test it. I'd suggest asking on the print forum at dpreview
Good video. You have talked me into learning to print and I will get a P900 printer but limit the choice of paper to four. Two paper for BW and two papers for colour. I'm into landscape, woodland and old infra structure. What type of papers do you recommend as a minimum?
Thanks for the video. I absolutely love my P900 printer but so far have only used the Epson Premium Luster and the Epsom canvas. I wasn’t terribly happy with the look of b&w on Luster paper, but after watching this, I think I’ll give the Baryta paper a whirl. Looks like the Epson Legacy Baryta has been discontinued on the Epson site. Any recommendations here in the states?
Thanks - unfortunately I've no real knowledge of what papers are available outside of the UK. I'm not sure how much Innova paper is available in the US - this one has been one I like for quite a few years www.northlight-images.co.uk/innova-fibaprint-baryta-ifa69-paper-review/
Hahnemuehle Fineart Baryta and Canson Baryta Photographique II should be available in the US and are excellent papers (as I have checked with my P900). Otherwise I can recommend one of the Hahnemuehle or Canson sample packs. Give it a try, you will not be disappointed.
Keith, I have a baryta paper media option on my P900. Is this different and/or better to use rather than the Premium Luster paper media ? Have you tried the baryta media option ?
Depends entirely on the paper. In the example here, my testing for this paper produced slightly better results for profiling with a PremLustre media setting and also for using it for the ABW media setting. The 700 and 900 are identical in this respect. Use the media setting suggested by the paper supplier - if you look at the P700/900 B&W printing article (not video) there are graphs and measurements exploring more aspects of B&W printing. www.northlight-images.co.uk/black-and-white-printing-with-the-p700/
@@KeithCooper yes diabase! That's the southeastern dialect in United States, primarily Florida, it's what happens when the snowbird's lingo mix in with the Florida crackers, but yes I noticed that and I corrected it, keep up the good work...
@@KeithCooper you're wright up says epson TPP ? I figured it out, it's what we call here in the states 'exhibition fiber paper' which I have tried that and it seemed to work pretty good, I've tried the legacy plantine and it seems to do pretty good with color, and I have another question out of many that I have asked you, it just seems you're the most educated in this field, I tried legacy Barytra Epson very tricky with black-and-white completely failed with color, have you tried the new Epson Barytra 2 ? And thanks again Keith.
The limit of my testing is what's listed - the 8550 went back to Epson In general, baryta style papers are the [relatively] weakest performing group on the 8550 I've not seen any new Epson papers - but yes, the names vary in different regions.@@fixitright9709
Hello! I have an HP Envy 5640 and i can't find the HP paper profiles any were. Since i have the printer that i cant do good prints. In the printer driver the only option for the HP paper types is HP PHOTO PAPERS. The problem is that are diferent types of HP photo papers like in other brands. When i print the colors are allways washed out etc. They are flat without contrast. Is there any way that you could help me with this or its better to save money and buy another printer? Thanks.
I don't know this printer at all I'm afraid. It's widely thought that HP dropped out of the 'better' desktop photo printer market several years ago, when they ditched the B9180. It would be nice if there was an HP product or products to match the PRO-300/1000 or Epson P700/900/5000 but I don't see any?.
@@KeithCooper yes the HP printers in these days are really bad. Iam not gonna buy more Hp printers for sure. Also the inks are very expenssive. A think i will buy a Canon one. I cant spend too mutch but i think with 200€ i can buy a mutch better print than this one. Thanks for your feedback. Really apreciate.
I just bought a p700 and stumbled across your channel because I have an issue with it Any idea at all why it’s printing blank, literally no ink. Thats on a print , test print, head check, everything is blank Cartridges loaded, all drivers installed, reinstalled, software installed uninstalled still nothing
Paper jams are a part and parcel of printing. What is not acceptable is for the printer to continue printing when the paper is jammed. This happened to me on the P700. Halfway of printing, the paper jammed. The P700 continued to print on the same horizontal section of the paper. Luckily I spotted the problem and switched off the printer. Unfortunately, this left an excess of ink on the paper. It was troublesome to remove/blot out the excess ink because the printer head and cables were in the way. Further, because the paper jammed mid way, and it was a 5x7 inch paper, I had difficulty trying to grip the paper ends in order to pull it out. The point is, the printer should have stopped printing the moment the paper jammed. Shame on Epson for not coding for that.
Frankly I'd be disappointed if this print resembled a real darkroom wet print. For a start a genuine darkroom print would never be so perfectly flat as a modern inkjet printer and modern papers could produce 😊😋
Thanks as always! It's so great to have the benefit of your immense experience, especially as it pertains to my printer (P900). I've been working my way through a couple of Epson sample packs (Legacy and Signature-Worthy). The former includes a few sheets of baryta, and I love the results (actually, result, as I've only used one sheet so far). I don't have a silver-gelatin print of the same image for comparison, but it "works" very well. Ideally, I'd use the same test image for all of the papers and create a control group (except that of course some are best suited to specific types of images), so I'm just printing my own images to see how they work using the Epson ICC profiles (and ABW for B&W). I've read your advice here: www.northlight-images.co.uk/choosing-the-best-paper-for-your-photo-prints/ and my "core" choices align with yours so far, but I need to experiment. I'm not asking which is "best"--I'm just wondering if I can expect a significant difference between brands (of course, there are different "types" of baryta as well) Brands available in the US, including Hahnemühle, Canson, Moab, and Red River, do have sample packs (and provide ICC profiles), so I may as well try them, but I was wondering what to expect. I also want to experiment with metallic and canvas--as you say, "the tyranny of choice"...
My only concern with test packs is that they encourage a bit of a scattergun approach rather than actually looking at detailed performance in depth. I created the Northlight B&W test image specifically for such testing - other than that I use some of the standard colour test images. Of course, the papers I look at are UK ones - some have 'equivalents' - all my paper reviews are listed on the Northlight site with specs (they pre-date my videos)
Thank you for your series on photo printing. I find it very educational.
Glad you like them!
I have plenty of Baryta Paper & Agree 100% using Luster settings I had experiment w Epson 3800 -3880 and now w the P700 the Results are truly great~~
Yes, get the right paper and they work very well
Enjoying the videos. Thanks. Only stopped printing in the darkroom a couple of years ago so it’s still very recent to me. I love baryta papers for b&w printing. They “feel” right as well as looking great. On a visit to the Ilford/Harman factory a few years ago they told us that their baryta paper was basically the standard Ilford Multigrade Fibre darkroom paper but with an inkjet receptive layer on top instead of the emulsion. The base paper is quite hard to get hold of and there are a very small number of companies in the world who can make it. Their own brand Harman paper has now been discontinued but I know that they are the people behind several other companies baryta paper.
Thanks
I've used Innova papers for several years - their papers appear quite often in boxes with other people's branding on it ;-)
Nice video. In trying to share with the user your great experience and insights, I would add that the essence of "baryta" is that the baryta finish of paper makes it significantly whiter. And the baryta finish is very smooth - in my old school terms almost "glossy" and underline "almost".
Being more white under the same light, this type of paper has a greater dynamic range.
If your printer's ink and the software behind that, with your adjustments, can get the blackest black out of each image, then, even with the glossy finish, the whitest white (*) being brighter than in matte paper, you get more dynamic range.
Some photographers can go on-and-on about the depiction of unsharp areas in an image (which doesn't help when you must make money off portraits or weddings). Others can go on-and-on about gradation and contrast. Well, "baryta" belongs with the latter. And is totally justified in all cases to take that into account. It does not make for nicer background blur, or more flattering faces but can add to drama with much better contrast, or vividness.
If you are about less saturated, watercolour-like (I mean aquarelle, wet-in-wet, not kiddies watercolour), very soft tones and gradations, use matte paper. And potentially take your images into Photoshop to convert them into 32 bits gradation resolution (***).
(*) In colour theory there is no "whiter white". White is 100% reflectance of the entire humanly visible spectrum and as such has no colour and no gradation. The opposite applies to black. In this theory there are no "blacks" and no "whites" as the Mudbricks (**) lead you to believe.
(**) a mudbrick is also called an adobe.
(***) When you are naive in digital photography, you think "14 bits" is what you get from your shots as your camera was set to 14 bits. That's not at all true. Because the sensor, the photosites (the real sensors) therein, is colour-blind, there's a filter grid over the sensor that cuts visible light down to either red, or green, or blue. As each photosite provides one data element in your raw file, these elements have one colour (AKA monochromatic as mono=single, one). On your computer display, this would look like 100% luminance noise and 100% colour noise, if you had an application to render it at that. In order to get RGB pixels, a process is applied called "raw processing" which has to guess the missing colours. That process is mathematically precise and repeatable, but it still is "wild-assed guessing". I'll skip the explanation how this, but remember that all noise you see in the result from raw processing must be blamed on the "wild-assed guessing" in the first place, and only to the camera in the second. DxO Mark blames it on the sensor and that's {male bovine excrement] - why? Because their sister legal entity DxO sell raw processing software and commercially you should not blame it on that technology.
So what happens to the bits? If we assume that DxO Mark uses the best possible approach in processing of raw images for their measurements, then you can see from their marks that the "best cameras" have a colour space of 27 bits at a dynamic range of about 15 EV, today. This means that 14 bits acquired from the sensor - the photosites in the sensor are analogue - in your camera have become 27. Are 13 of the 27 guessed? Well, it's worse. Those 27 will be 9+9+9 if evenly divided between R, G, and B, and in fact each of those 9 is the result of wild-assed guessing, entirely. In, say, Lightroom Classic (LrC, that uses Adobe Camera Raw - ACR - for raw processing), those 27 bits are at the level of LrC's internal data representation. When you export to JPEG, it's converted into 8+8+8 with lossy data compression. "We" do not know what happens precisely between LrC and your monitor (e.g. in the video driver layer), or for that matter, the printer driver layer when we print, rather than display.
In Photoshop we can convert our images into 16 bits or 32 bits per channel. This gives a much finer gradation. It does not improve dynamic range, but it improves the finesse in the colour scales. If the colour scales become visible, then we call that "banding". Generally they do not become visible but we end up with less precise colour or grey nuances. The extrapolation made in Ps is very smart and even on a very good but still 8+8+8 bit monitor, the difference is noticeable. Subtle, but noticeable, for the critical eye.
Thanks for the notes
Yes. But the main you wanted to make: Baryta gives more contrast. Which is not always wished for or even counterproductive. Thus, choose consciously.
I still remember the difference between our air dried gloss prints and the mirror gloss ones from our drum glazer so I luv the Baryta papers - especially the Hahnemuhle cotton rag versions. Thanks for the B&W printing mode tip!
Thanks - glad it was of interest
Hello Keith. First and foremost, a wonderful channel and series of videos on everything to do with modern day printing. Quite amazing your wealth of expertise. I have one request. Could you possibly do an information sheet, pamphlet, on packing, types of packaging, and shipping for large paper prints (larger than A3 size). Thank you for all the work and time you much put into this channel. Daniel.
Thanks
I'm afraid I just don't know much about this - for 20+ years I've just rolled prints up in archival tissue paper and shipped them in tubes. The largest tubes were 8" diameter and five feet long, with a second narrower tube inside and the print/tissue inside a polythene bag [a series of prints shipped to the US]
'Tubes' is my only answer - I don't ship anything framed or matted [local delivery/collection only]
Hello again Keith. Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I'll give the tube method a try. Finally, I have no idea how you find the time for all the amazing work you do. Thanks again. @@KeithCooper
Thank you Keith for another brilliant video. I recently got back into landscape photography after several years and have bought a P700 for making prints of old images and of new work. Your videos and articles have been so helpful and informative and are very much appreciated! You appear to have a video and article for any questions that come to me. I’ve made a few prints so far that have turned out beautifully (to my eye, at least!) and even when they don’t come out quite right the first time, I still find the process of making the print to be a worthwhile and fun learning experience.
Thanks for all your help and advice!
Andy
Thanks - I've a couple more P700 ones for next weekend (pano B&W and using the front feed with art papers)
@@KeithCooper Good to hear, I’ll keep an eye out for them! :-)
Baryta paper may well be the best inkjet paper around. It was a very good paper in the days of the wet darkroom, apart from the fact that these papers soaked up lots of chemicals during developing and (especially) fixing. And you had to flush all of them out which took close to an hour.
And then the images needed to dry, the glossy on a hot press. And then the dried image would stick to the gloss-plate. I have no real fond memories of the wet darkroom. It was better than sending rolls to a lab, but the post-processing of exposed material was not very welcome.
Then came Ilford with Ilfospeed (if my memory serves me well), PE coated paper that did not suck up chemicals. The washing was only to clear the emulsion layer. This made work a lot more friendly.
But wet ink sprayed on Baryta is probably the best way to go back to B/W images, without the hassle of wet silverbased papers. Baryta will just immediately dry after a squirt of inkjet fluid (measured in nano litres). New applications for an old paper. Nice.
Yes, I sometimes think the chemicals have faded many people's memories of the hassle the process was sometimes...
Enjoy your videos, Keith. (I note today, that your audio seems much improved.) I'm also enjoying a new P900, using Epson luster paper. Very pleasing, so far.
Thanks - I'm now using the wireless microphone I got recently - I just have to remember not to hit it when I'm waving prints around... ;-)
Now, only an accent-adjustment function in yt is still amiss ;)
Thanks Keith for your always informative videos. I love my P900 and have been using Palo Duro Baryta fiber 300 from Red River Paper (USA) for getting awesome black and whites and color images. I use it in print competitions and gallery shows. Tested other paper types but baryta is always my favorite.
Thanks - glad it's of interest. Not papers I've ever seen, but they do have a good reputation.
I'm using the paper too from Red River Paper that i bought at the factory here in Dallas. I am most impressed by it. They recently had it on sell in the 4x6 and the 8.5 x 11 size. Excellent paper!
Hi Keith, thanks for another great video. I have used Epson Traditional Photo Paper on my P900, but I have noticed significant scratching from the daisy wheels that feed the paper - this is not a problem with Ilford Smooth Pearl, but I did noticed some scratching on Epson Cold Press Natural (although less than with TPP). My previous P600 didn't use daisy wheels and didn't scratch these papers. Epson, in a relatively recent firmware update, provide a special mode where you feed sensitive papers like TPP in "backwards". You lose an inch or so at the top and bottom of the print. I don't find this an entirely acceptable solution as I like to print to nearly full size of the paper (usually A2), but the scratching is reduced.
Ah, good old TPP...
I tested this when TPP first came out and decided it just wasn't a paper I'd choose. Too fragile for my liking.
There are many far better papers out there now IMHO (many in the Innova range for example).
You are right - it shouldn't happen, but it's partly why I always say that with a new printer, you re-evaluate your paper choices.
If a paper doesn't work, it doesn't work, move on...
Yes, easier said than done - but partly based on having so many printers here to test over the years
Even after all the marketing I still prefer the feel and look of Baryta papers for prints, both colour and B&W. Your points however are very well made.
Yes - it's what they look like that counts! ;-)
Canson has a baryta matt paper in their offering (baryta photographique II mat) . It must be printed as a matt paper with the MK cartridge. It is very smooth and nicely white but as expected from a matt paper it doesn't meet the Dmax of their regular glossy equivalent. However it is a good alternative on my old R3000 as I don't have to switch inks between the baryta and the rag papers.
That's a good suggestion - not having to switch blacks is a definite plus for the P700/900
Again, Thx for sharing experience and valuable information. Since. you last reply on my issue of "off centre" print on A3 - I solved the issue. But quiz : Do you find it necessary to "tweek" any brightness / contrast " or even toning in ABW, since most certainly I edit my DNG files (RAW ) thru Lightroom- then additionally retouch / editing in Photoshop, often now use Nik Silver Efex as filter in PS OR after exporting file back to Lightroom (LR ) I make virt copy and run this thru Silver efex. 1 ) Do you recommend exporting from LR/PS with "add sharpening for PRINT" ( low/Std etc) when sending image to EPL. 2) Would it be sound to NOT tweek in ABW -eg. toning ( since this has been "perfected" already in the editing. I tend to send jpg at max quality when going to make a print. Also let EPL setting to "dark" ( since recommended by watching som similar videos from Epson )... Any thoughts, Keith ? ( I find that the quiestion is relevant without being connected to paper types ( I use 50 % Canson Edition etch rag / and also will try Baryta being inspired by you ! ) Thanks again and sincere regards from Norway . PS I visited and attended a workshop in Leicester back in 1999 - but this was in Vascular Surgery for clogged up arteries in the legs with the Master in Leicester Amman Bolia - who then came to Norway and got our Vascular society up n going in the fine art of PTA ( percutaneous transluminal angiplasty ) -
Russell J
Thanks
First up, I have no place for Lightroom on any computer of mine :-) :-)
In general I'll do some adjustments in with the raw file and then edit in photoshop, including conversion to B&W by whatever means seems appropriate for the lens [SFX is but one option]
Sharpening is always image and print size dependent - there is no place for 'sharpen for print' settings ;-)
If printing with ABW, the default mode is used - BUT I will have tested the paper for linearity/tone issues before using it.
See here to start www.northlight-images.co.uk/black-and-white-printing-with-the-p700/
Then look at my B&W printing workflow videos
www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/#p7
Is the Epson's Legacy Baryta II Paper comparable to the Epson Traditional that you are using in the video? I can't seem to find the Traditional on Epsons website. Thank you for all your videos.
Where is that paper sold? I don't know it I'm afraid
TPP was exhibition fibre in the US IIRC?
I'm looking at their website in the U S. Just came out in May of 2023. Can you recommend a paper and specific brand that is now available comparable to what you are using in the video?@@KeithCooper
If you are in the US, the only company I've worked with is Red River
For an actual paper brand - Innova will have something very close...
Thanks Keith.@@KeithCooper
I like the smell of my Ilford Baryta paper. Smells like developer ( how sad 😊) but it's good stuff. Does remind me of Ilford FB multigrade. I agree that the black and white mode is very good on my 3880. Thanks for a based informative video Keith.
Ah, I draw the line at smells in my testing ;-) :-)
Very helpful video, as always. Thank you so much for that and for your invaluable articles.
It's a shame that all the efforts Epson and Canon put in ink "formula" are still unable to produce pure black prints and need other colors. How do you explain that ?
Ah, my expertise is not in ink chemistry I'm afraid ;-)
They are better than they were, but remember that the blacks are part of the whole (colour) ink set, so 'perfect' B&W is just part of the objective.
Another fantastic and educational video.
Thanks - glad they are of interest.
I love Baryta papers, esp for black and white, but also for any images that need the degree of contrast they provide. My favorite is Innova IFA-69
Yes - I've used that one for years
www.northlight-images.co.uk/innova-fibaprint-baryta-ifa69-paper-review/
@@KeithCooper it has every I want, surface texture being one of the most important things to me. And it takes spray exceptionally well
Very useful, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Hi Keith, why didn't you use the front-loading feed for printing on the thicker Baryta paper using the P700/P900 for this demonstration?
Honest answer - it worked just fine via the top ;-)
The only time I deliberately used the front load was to print on board.
That said, I believe I do have a P900 video showing the use of papers through the front - it would depend on the paper and the surface coating.
@@KeithCooper That's relief. I never print on board. My favourite go to paper is Epson Hot Pressed Bright 17x22 Matte for BW. After watching the above video I may try baryta paper. Thanks again!
Just what I needed!
Thanks!
Thank you Keith for this video.
In ABW... how does the printer know which black (photo or matt) should be used? I think it's different for different papers.
Thanks!
Yes - it's automatically set by the media type you select.
Thank you for another B&W, P900 video. Is this the paper you would recommend for B&W where showing details is paramount?
It's a type I personally use, not this actual one, but I prefer it generally to lustre 'RC' style papers or glossy.
Hello Keith. I just found your channel while doing research on a printer upgrade from my Epson R3000. Your videos are enjoyable and educational. Now that you have been using the Epson SureColor P700 and P900 printers for over a year, can you tell me if you have any concerns for someone looking to upgrade to one of these? I mostly print for my own enjoyment and light competition within my camera club. I print color and black and white equally and I use a variety of papers from various sources. I consider myself quite knowledgeable and I firmly believe these models will meet my needs, but I have some concerns based on the quality control issues that are evident from several online reviews. Thanks in advance for any reply.
When the first printers arrived, I was very clear that if you found something amiss, it should go right back to Epson - one of my samples was damaged in shipping..
The one I'm testing at the moment (I only borrow them - I'm not allowed to live in a printer warehouse) is a new one and works without issue.
I have had the P900 for three months and have printed a substantial number of print both colour and B/W. I too had read the quality control issues before I bought the printer but I have not had any problem regarding feed of paper and quality of print. I use Epson ink and a number of different paper manufacturers primarily Epson. I used Epson Print Layout and Qimage Ultimate to set the parameters and ICC profiles for my photos. I once had an R3000, replaced by a P600, then by a P900 as I wanted to be able to do A2 prints.
@@KeithCooper Thanks Keith. My first P900 arrived this week and failed during initial ink charge with Error 000044. I am in the process of doing an exchange. Lucky me. Fingers crossed for a better copy next time around.
Thanks for great tutorial Keith! Question: I am printing on Canson baryta photographique II matte paper, and Canson recommends a setting not present in my printers menu, namely "Ultra Premium Presentation Matte". Would you stick to Premium lustre as in your tutorial or go for Baryta in the printer settings (using the correct Canson profile of course)? (Photos are with colour, but with low saturation.)
UPP Matte is the same as the Epson enhanced Matte or Epson Archival matte type settings AFAIK
It likely needs matt black ink, so definitely not lustre
However it's not a paper I've ever seen, so I couldn't say for sure
@@KeithCooper Sure made a big improvement over the two other settings I tried (baryta and lustre). Thank you very much! Ps: still find the Photorag (cotton) paper from Canson to be more vivid, so perhaps they need to put some work into a better profile for their baryta paper for the Epson SC P900. Thanks again!!
Great work as always. Thanks.
Thanks
hee nice video! I have a question.. My p700 is not printing in center. What do I need to do?
There is a horizontal offset setting I believe - i's that or setting custom margins.
I don't have the printer here any more so can't test it.
I'd suggest asking on the print forum at dpreview
Good video. You have talked me into learning to print and I will get a P900 printer but limit the choice of paper to four. Two paper for BW and two papers for colour. I'm into landscape, woodland and old infra structure. What type of papers do you recommend as a minimum?
A lustre, a baryta and two art papers (smooth and textured)
Covers all the options for me...
@@KeithCooper Thank you thats good information
Thanks for the video. I absolutely love my P900 printer but so far have only used the Epson Premium Luster and the Epsom canvas. I wasn’t terribly happy with the look of b&w on Luster paper, but after watching this, I think I’ll give the Baryta paper a whirl. Looks like the Epson Legacy Baryta has been discontinued on the Epson site. Any recommendations here in the states?
Thanks - unfortunately I've no real knowledge of what papers are available outside of the UK.
I'm not sure how much Innova paper is available in the US - this one has been one I like for quite a few years
www.northlight-images.co.uk/innova-fibaprint-baryta-ifa69-paper-review/
Hahnemuehle Fineart Baryta and Canson Baryta Photographique II should be available in the US and are excellent papers (as I have checked with my P900). Otherwise I can recommend one of the Hahnemuehle or Canson sample packs. Give it a try, you will not be disappointed.
I agree about the Hahnemuehle and Canson... very good quality. Red River makes a baryta style also and their quality continues to improve.
Yep the Palo Duro Baryta fiber 300 from Red River Paper. Recently it was on sell at their site. Excellent paper. See discussion above.
Keith, I have a baryta paper media option on my P900. Is this different and/or better to use rather than the Premium Luster paper media ? Have you tried the baryta media option ?
Depends entirely on the paper. In the example here, my testing for this paper produced slightly better results for profiling with a PremLustre media setting and also for using it for the ABW media setting. The 700 and 900 are identical in this respect.
Use the media setting suggested by the paper supplier - if you look at the P700/900 B&W printing article (not video) there are graphs and measurements exploring more aspects of B&W printing.
www.northlight-images.co.uk/black-and-white-printing-with-the-p700/
Nice to known maybe it look as with diafilm black and white.
I don't have any of that to test...
Hello Keith, have you ever tried printing this paper on a dye base printer?, I have the et8550,
Diabase?
See the main 8550 review, for details about the papers I tested
www.northlight-images.co.uk/epson-et-8550-printer-review/
@@KeithCooper yes diabase! That's the southeastern dialect in United States, primarily Florida, it's what happens when the snowbird's lingo mix in with the Florida
crackers, but yes I noticed that and I corrected it, keep up the good work...
@@KeithCooper you're wright up says epson TPP ? I figured it out, it's what we call here in the states 'exhibition fiber paper' which I have tried that and it seemed to work pretty good, I've tried the legacy plantine and it seems to do pretty good with color, and I have another question out of many that I have asked you, it just seems you're the most educated in this field, I tried legacy Barytra Epson very tricky with black-and-white completely failed with color, have you tried the new Epson Barytra 2 ? And thanks again Keith.
The limit of my testing is what's listed - the 8550 went back to Epson
In general, baryta style papers are the [relatively] weakest performing group on the 8550
I've not seen any new Epson papers - but yes, the names vary in different regions.@@fixitright9709
Hello! I have an HP Envy 5640 and i can't find the HP paper profiles any were. Since i have the printer that i cant do good prints. In the printer driver the only option for the HP paper types is HP PHOTO PAPERS. The problem is that are diferent types of HP photo papers like in other brands. When i print the colors are allways washed out etc. They are flat without contrast. Is there any way that you could help me with this or its better to save money and buy another printer? Thanks.
I don't know this printer at all I'm afraid.
It's widely thought that HP dropped out of the 'better' desktop photo printer market several years ago, when they ditched the B9180.
It would be nice if there was an HP product or products to match the PRO-300/1000 or Epson P700/900/5000 but I don't see any?.
@@KeithCooper yes the HP printers in these days are really bad. Iam not gonna buy more Hp printers for sure. Also the inks are very expenssive. A think i will buy a Canon one. I cant spend too mutch but i think with 200€ i can buy a mutch better print than this one. Thanks for your feedback. Really apreciate.
I just bought a p700 and stumbled across your channel because I have an issue with it
Any idea at all why it’s printing blank, literally no ink. Thats on a print , test print, head check, everything is blank
Cartridges loaded, all drivers installed, reinstalled, software installed uninstalled still nothing
With a new printer, that's almost certainly a fault - contact Epson or the supplier
Paper jams are a part and parcel of printing. What is not acceptable is for the printer to continue printing when the paper is jammed.
This happened to me on the P700. Halfway of printing, the paper jammed. The P700 continued to print on the same horizontal section of the paper. Luckily I spotted the problem and switched off the printer.
Unfortunately, this left an excess of ink on the paper. It was troublesome to remove/blot out the excess ink because the printer head and cables were in the way.
Further, because the paper jammed mid way, and it was a 5x7 inch paper, I had difficulty trying to grip the paper ends in order to pull it out.
The point is, the printer should have stopped printing the moment the paper jammed. Shame on Epson for not coding for that.
Annoying, but I always keep an eye on printing small media with larger printers - I've not had many problems but smaller paper does it.
@KeithCooper Does what, make problems? 😳 I am actally planning to get a 900 or even 5300 for printing mainly 13/18, 20/24 or A4... 🫣
Frankly I'd be disappointed if this print resembled a real darkroom wet print. For a start a genuine darkroom print would never be so perfectly flat as a modern inkjet printer and modern papers could produce 😊😋
I do remember using a huge drum glazing machine that made some impressively flat prints - well, they were for a while...
Thanks as always! It's so great to have the benefit of your immense experience, especially as it pertains to my printer (P900). I've been working my way through a couple of Epson sample packs (Legacy and Signature-Worthy). The former includes a few sheets of baryta, and I love the results (actually, result, as I've only used one sheet so far). I don't have a silver-gelatin print of the same image for comparison, but it "works" very well. Ideally, I'd use the same test image for all of the papers and create a control group (except that of course some are best suited to specific types of images), so I'm just printing my own images to see how they work using the Epson ICC profiles (and ABW for B&W). I've read your advice here: www.northlight-images.co.uk/choosing-the-best-paper-for-your-photo-prints/ and my "core" choices align with yours so far, but I need to experiment. I'm not asking which is "best"--I'm just wondering if I can expect a significant difference between brands (of course, there are different "types" of baryta as well) Brands available in the US, including Hahnemühle, Canson, Moab, and Red River, do have sample packs (and provide ICC profiles), so I may as well try them, but I was wondering what to expect. I also want to experiment with metallic and canvas--as you say, "the tyranny of choice"...
My only concern with test packs is that they encourage a bit of a scattergun approach rather than actually looking at detailed performance in depth.
I created the Northlight B&W test image specifically for such testing - other than that I use some of the standard colour test images.
Of course, the papers I look at are UK ones - some have 'equivalents' - all my paper reviews are listed on the Northlight site with specs (they pre-date my videos)