Perfect example of why we need right to repair laws. Tesla has no interest in doing the right thing here; they just want you to buy a new car, like any corporation. What we need is more competition so consumers could buy third party batteries.
In this case they did the "right" for them thing but where it gets difficult is for out of warranty failures, where right to repair because more important.@@theotherphil
@@theotherphil You don't understand, the right to repair laws mean third party can fix the product, not only the maker. Tesla don't want or sell any parts to the others specialised in EV garage that are able to fix it too. Example in this case, I bet it not a cell as the owner think is the trouble but a trouble with something with the BMS or part of it (My jugement based on the rapid degradation and no Error on the voltage). Bms is only a mini electrical control board, cost ??? 20$ maybe for the part. Of course Tesla prefer to sell a new battery pack for 13 000$, way much profit for Tesla and if this fear the owner to buy new car, again better for Tesla probably again. Right now, to replace this 20$ electrical board, specialized EV garage need now to buy used part to be able to fix Tesla since Tesla still don't allow it....
@@sergiomomesso1590 Why would you want to repair when it’s still under warranty? It’s easier and cheaper for Tesla to swap out the whole pack, get you back on the road in the shortest time frame and worry about repair/ recycle later.
@@VijayBhaskar1991there is no guarantee it will last past the warranty. Problem is not batteries they will last 500k or more problem is that whole battery is thousands of small batteries connected with each other and those connections can oxidize due to humidity, batteries can get unbalanced, quality of each individual battery can vary and almost those variables lead to age being the most important factor in lifespan of battery.
This video might be the tipping point for me. I don’t think I can afford to afford a car that’s 1) expensive to begin with, 2) expensive to repair, 3) unreliable, and 4) more difficult and expensive to service than gasoline engines, requiring even more specialized electrical “mechanics.”
This was done under warranty. Besides the replacement my car has been VERY low maintenance. As I said in the video the rest of the car mechanically has been flawless.
@@chargepozitiveI think the problem is that, with most things electric, things are treated as disposable rather than repairable. Had this not occurred under warranty, you'd have been in a world of hurt such that the car isn't worth repairing due to the cost involved. An EV with no battery is worth parts.
I know a parts guy that works at a Honda dealership. He told me that all the replacement packs in cars, even under new car warranty, are rebuilt packs. As the gentleman stated, they salvage good cells from bad batteries and assemble a used pack that has all good cells. Of course, you never know when the rebuilt pack might fail. Could be a year, a month or a week. There is no way to tell. So, make sure you buy the extended warranty and then get rid of the car once the original pack fails.
Name that dealership, they certainly are doing that to rip off customers. There is no way using rebuild part for warranty works, unless it is a really old one out of warranty and the customer is aware of it. My company had an 2001 Honda odyssey, it has a transmission failure under warranty, that model year is known for transmission design issue, it was replaced with brand transmission. That is the only experience that I had for the past 30 year with replacement of major drive train components for Honda or Toyota.
@@haihengh not a rip off. It is the modus operandis for EV battery replacements. The only time an EV will ever have a new battery pack is when it leaves the factory.
Read the warranty before you by. This is the same with ice and lots of equipment. They reserve the right to evaluate replace or repair/rebuild bla bla bla
I've been following your discussion about changing the battery three times under warranty, and now that you're almost out of warranty, it's the main reason I'm holding off on buying a Tesla. The thought of having to replace the battery for $25,000 if it stops working has been a concern. However, I've recently discovered that they don't install entirely new batteries; instead, they rebuild them, which adds another layer of consideration for me.
I don't quite see the point of concern here. On Ice vehicles the engine can brake as well which on vehicles with similar performance cost often more than a new and I mean Factory new Battery pack. Also the warranty is 8 Years which is nice.
Great video thanks for sharing your experience! I have a Model 3 Performance and after 8 months and 6'000 miles (9'000 km as drive in Switzerland) my BMS showed BMS_a029, which is about the same as your note. They also gave me a "new" battery pack after 4 weeks. I use an OBD and with the OBD you can "see" how many DC and AC charged kWh have been put into the "new" / replaced refurbished battery pack. In my case, considering the average kWh/ km or mile I had so far, the OBD data showed that the "new", refurbished battery pack had at LEAST already around 25'000 km , or 15'500 miles on it BEFORE it was installed in my Model 3 P which had at that time only 6'000 miles or around 9'000 km. thus, the refurbished, or "new" battery pack was NOT quite "comparable" in regards to the mileage to my initial battery pack but had about 2.5 as many miles on it!! Now, without installing an OBD (on board diagnostic) tool i would have NEVER found out! What do you think of that?
Honestly you could probably sue Tesla for it. Under warranty, especially during the first year, they have to provide an equivalent or better replacement. Not a worst one. Imagine if an ICE car maker were to replace your motor with a used one, or repair it with used part, nobody would accept that. There is no reason for Tesla to get away with it.
Stupid question, the tesla accepts an OBD tool? Is it a regular OBDII hookup or is it a specific OBD tool? Just got my Model3 P about 9 months ago, I haven’t had a problem yet so I don’t know much about the car except driving it. Any information will be helpful, thanks in advance.
@barn2255 not sure which industry you refer to. Any warranty claim I ever had either repaired my product or replaced any broken part with a new one. Especially in the car industry, never heard of a second-hand part being installed. Even when replacing entire motors under warranty om ICE a new one gets installed.
I've been doing Lyft on my mach-e and already put on 20,000+ miles since starting 6 months ago, now I may get a bit nervous how durable and reliable the mach-e battery pack is. Thanks for sharing your story!
@@chargepozitive I'll have to check out her video next. I'm really interested to know how's your overall experience driving for Lyft with your model y? I'm gonna be making a video on mine pretty soon
@@chargepozitive While there aren't that many videos out there with people having battery issues (at least for Tesla), I think it's clear that when there ARE problems, the combo is always the same: a ton of miles + super charging exclusively. I've had my Tesla Model Y Long Range almost 2 months now. I've super charged only once and that was just to see how it's done. I charged to 80% like always and only needed to add 30 miles or so. The average person, who's putting 15K miles or less on their car every year and is using an L1/L2 charger 90% of the time will end up with a car that gives you 300K miles or more.
This is sad. I have a 2007 Lexus 400h with 200k miles and haven’t had any issues only tires and oil changes. I do upwards of 200 miles a day doing deliveries. It’s an amazing how my 16 year old vehicle is holding up better than a new Tesla.
I just had to spend $9,000 on a new transmission for a Subaru Outback that was six years newer than your car with 130K miles. That's like a battery going out, pretty much.
@@incognitotorpedo42Subaru isn't as reliable as Toyota unfortunately. If you're doing a lot of miles, a Toyota is probably best cost per mile over the ownership.
30,000k for gas,with an mpg of 30 price of 4.50 per gallon without gas spikes. Vehicle 8,000 purchase or more. Struts,springs and rubber are probably due.2k DIY and dealership 3.5k. 70 dollars per service every 8 thousands miles 1,750 dollars. 2.5k for tires on that mileage. 40k + assuming your car has had no issues,no car accidents or small repairs.Next year annual expenses are still coming. In a way you’re paying every year for half of battery 🤷🏻♂️
We have had Teslas in our family for 9 years and never had any battery problems with a Model S, 2 Model Ys, and a Model 3. Best cars we have ever owned and I have owned Mercedes, BMWs, Audis, Ferraris, and Aston Martins. I think there are too many people commenting here who are uninformed or just plain making it up.
Insanely good business. Get a few bad cell modules on a pack, replace them, sell as new pack for $10-20k to those, who aren't on warranty anymore. And if it's under warranty, it really costs almost nothing to replace the bad modules, only shipping back and forth plus a loaner for the customer. I will be buying Tesla stocks right now. 🤣
You have to understand that re-manufacturing a pack is not "swapping a few cells". Rich over at RichRebuilds still has to charge a lot of money when he "repairs" a pack. The labour and the skill level, the safety requirements etc is significant. Quite often, the issue isn't bad cells, it's water ingress and damaged communication boards. The description of the process in this video is incorrect. They don't salvage the cells. They pull any damaged modules and boards and replace them. The process is pull the battery, open the battery without damaging the case permanently, diagnose the fault, replace the damaged parts and re-seal the battery to "as new" condition. It's labour intensive and a minimum two person operation because you're dealing with extremely high DC voltages. Tesla can probably do it cheaper because they will have access to wholesale new parts and battery modules.
So if significant supercharging prematurely erodes Tesla batteries, then Teslas should only be used locally or where daily L2 charging is 80-90% available. This would then require a 2nd ICE vehile for road trips which hurts the push to all EV. Most road trips require 95-100% L3 charging as L2 infrastructure on the road is very limited when available.
Try finding a few bad cells in thousands.... and you need to discharge the battery pack before messing inside it, makes the problem of finding those illusive bad cells even worse. The cells are in series and parallel connection making matters even worse.
Personally, I would like to see the packs to be manufactured to be maintainable. Munro's dissection of some Tesla packs demonstrate that maintainability, by Tesla or a 3rd party is not a goal. Matching cells within a battery leads to the longest pack life practicable. I am not sure the balancers can offset poor cell matching. Good luck with your goal.
Yes, cell balancing just brings the maximum voltage of a single set of parallel cells in a series string to the same value once fully charged. The capacity of the battery is limited entirely by the capacity of the weakest set of parallel cells. If a single cell's fuse dies, the entire pack's capacity from then on will be reduced by the rating of that one cell. I believe Tesla's modules are put in series (something like 46P 24S per pack and 4 packs in series), so if a single cell goes, it'll be just over 2% extra degradation. That makes it odd why sometimes the capacity goes down so drastically, and points to something else than just the battery cells dying. Perhaps there's some connection issue. (Edit: that's with the 2170 cells)
Interesting video, I use to have a model Y performance, had it for three years on lease, at 40K miles replaced 2 sets of tires, normal driving, followed charging to the T, one battery pack replaced under warranty, second one started to degrade at 86% just before 3 years was up, had rear power drive unit replaced under warranty, had to drive a rental car for almost a month because tesla had parts shortages, Every charge was on DC fast charging, very bumpy uncomfortable ride compared to my Audi A6. Glad I am done with EV's. Dodged the massive repair bills. Now I got Camry Hybrid XSE, I could go anywhere, No More RANGE ANXIETY and much comfortable than Model Y or any Tesla
What is there so much talk about “fast charging?” Does anyone really know what fast charging does to batteries? To long for me to explain. But they will tell any lies/not full truth about fast charging to sell EV’s.
@@gerrydave7586 Most EV fanbois are in denial about fast charging's effects on battery life. They are also in denial about extreme cold or hot climate's effects on battery life.
@@gerrydave7586electrician here. Yeah fast charging is obviously terrible for batteries. Which everyone should know, as fast charging is bad for phone battery too.
173K miles on my model 3 standard 2021. can confirm the battery pack experience makes you rethink the viability of the car for business needs. i paid 8.6k out of warranty for the RMN pack. its better to sell prior to battery warranty going. for context my first pack failed at give or take 108k miles.
It seems to me that Tesla (and other makers) should provide a long warranty on reman battery packs, regardless of whether provided as part of warranty service or paid with cash.
I got a brand new model x about 3 weeks ago. At under 500 miles was plugged into a supercharger and battery died. Model x is still in the service center on our 6th day. Supposed to be done and replaced in 2 days, fingers crossed. Everyone I have talked to says I just had bad luck and this isn’t very common. Hoping no more issues since the model x was my dream vehicle. Good info and thanks for the video
I got it back and everything is fine. I got a new battery was installed a week later we will see how long it lasts. I love the model x in every way it is my dream car. I also have a model y and love it. I just wanted to put this message out in the open for people who have possibly went through the same or it might happen to in the future.
Who exactly is lying? Maybe most people just do not experience battery failure? I have not seen Tesla Bjorn lie for example, he has shown some degraded battery cars. I have also seen a guy ripping to shreds Opel Astra because the engine failed and other stuff and xalling them crap while mine is 12 years old and running like champ. One guy gates Toyota because he got a lemon… Lemons do exist, maybe there are more of those with EVs now but probably people whose batteries fail with want to ralk about that more often than those whose batteries do not fail
@@lkrnpk Too bad most blind ev fans even if the car has a problem try to make excuses that it's just a rare occurence when it's not. I have basically two opels one is an old now 28 year old astra F with 300+ thousand kilomters no issues except rust because it is what it is and other one a late 2003 opc, bertone version it sucks balls i owned for 1,5 half years from that half was spent on electric and computer problems and still doesn't run not even start at least i don't lie about it, no defending nothing. But if we see the biger pictures opel astras F and G models 10+ million were made worldwide 95+% worknig and stood the tes tof time. The smae can't be said about electric cars.
Yeah but the technology is in its infancy and many people said when Model S came out that the cars and batteries would be dead in 6-8 years but now they are driving at 12-13 years of age, at least some of them :D. They are so new, the long range generation, that it is hard to know how it will be and new chemistries and batteries come out all the time, it could happen like that, that tomorrow there really is a battery that will live for more than 20 years with maybe some cell replacement, if there is not already@@maszkalman3676
@@lkrnpk I've seen videos with EV owners coming with genuine problems with their Tesla just to be attacked by Tesla/Musk worshipers. Then they have to defend themselves and prove their problems are real. It's crazy how some people buy into an idea and worship it beyond reason.
It's true that such things happen too, it cannot be denied, there are also some who have invested in Tesla stock and for whom therefore Tesla is infallible and they even do not like the idea of other car makers making good EVs@@faster6329
Don’t get a new 5.3. My 22 suburban eats oil and that AFM fouls out plugs. Stupid emissions crap that we don’t even need because c02 doesn’t affect the climate.
Very detail video. Thanks so much. I have 2021 MYLR with 22K miles. It is so far so good. I watched a few video about batteries nightmare. One guy replaced a the battery after the warranty for $9K and got refurbished one. This is one of major reason so many people put on hold buying EV. If I knew this, I would hold buying Tesla. I told my daughter to hold buying Tesla and she agreed after watching this video. Thanks again for the detail video. I may return to ICE car.😂
A well made car can last 20 years with proper maintenance. I have Toyota and GM SUVs and both are reliable (to date). The GM product, a Sat Vue has 246k miles on it. I add a little oil between changes... AC had indications of a leak about 200k miles... so we dont use it. Right side of dashboard back light bulb needs replacing... odometer back light needs replacing... otherwise, works fine with 248K miles on it. Maintenance consists of 5k miles oil changes, 100k miles cooland changes, and trans fluid changes. Otherwise, just fine. Plastic body, so no rust. The Highlander is under extended warranty with regular dealer maintenance... no issues what so ever. This is what I require from an EV, and they appear not to be there yet. I think Neo has the right idea re the batteries, but I am not sure how this will work out in practice, as I do not know the guaranteed specs on the replacement rented batteries or if they are verified or checked regularly by Neo.
My 2010 prius has same issue. Only getting 40 mpg because of battery becoming weaker. Toyota made it to last very long, but it does not last forever like you’d hope. I think this is why Toyota does not want to do EV’s - because they think batteries are expensive, and they don’t want to pay for warranty issue for taxi cabs where the car is severely ran, and it’s a difficult issue ! We need a great big battery breakthrough, so that batteries become dirt cheap, and last LONG. That’s what we need. I like Tesla for taking on this challenge.
It's not that terribly difficult to replace the battery in a prius. Plus you can replace it with a pack that's both smaller and more energy dense now. But that last part is wishful. You either get more range or cheaper, you don't get both. Even solid state either means EVs with more range but much more expensive or same range but similar priced. The only way to get both is to just have a more efficient vehicle. But considering everyone wants an SUV or crossover today, that seems unlikely. Especially today where people even think sedans, which are still huge, are tiny death traps.
as a Nio owner with a rented & swappable battery (it swaps in ~4 minutes at a battery-swap station, costing just the same as a full fast-charging session), this Model Y scenario shows how swappable batteries make sense in the long-run.
As a gas powered car owner, seeing the nonsense you need to do and how bad teslas are, it just shows that gas powered cars are better and better for the environment. People who own EV's are suckers who have little grip on actual science or common sense as any one who can believe that a gas that plants need to grow, a gas nicknamed the gas of life, the gas that is so low in environmental atmospheric concentration, a gas that makes up only 0.04 percent will cause us all to die if it bumps up to 0.04 percent while using fossil fuels that they have found on a moon of Saturn that is actually renewable. Enjoy. Everyone loves seeing my car when I take it out. I get filmed, pictures taken, people want to sit in it. I get stopped in traffic and people talk to me while we wait at a light. And may gas powered car is about as fast as a Tesla too.
It doesn't matter because all of these batteries have potential to spontaniously combust. That is a WHOLE other set of problems and issues with loads; insurance; safety; more government regulation; weight restrictions on roadways; recertifications of building codes; etc.. The government pushing these 'lawn ornaments' tells me that these 'tree huggers' are not in REALITY!
They wanted to go fullEV by 2030 I say fuc|< that. I would never go EV. EV Battery just suck period. Look at power tool batteries for example. I remember they tried to push a battery lawnmower and that failed immediately and now they’re trying to ban all gas power equipment tools. Give me a break.
@@darksideblues135 oh you are the guy who calls others suck at science? And why do scientists worry about carbon concentration in the athmosphere? Do they all suck at science or are they bought? Well, yes you are a guy from the internet who claims knowing better than anyone else with no ecvidence. Make sense to just trust your BS.
So, you got a refurb pack. Not a bad deal, but I’d want a brand new battery. Glad you’re talking about battery degradation because it can and will happen to every BEV. No one is immune to it. 😊
I'd expect a brand new battery under warranty as well. When the traction battery on my Prius went out around year 9, it was out of warranty in my area ( 10 years in california, 8 elsewhere ), but I called Toyota corporate on the advice of the Prius forums, and they offered to give me a brand new battery pack for half price under a "good faith warranty". I went with that rather than an after market rebuild. At year 16 it is apparently still running well though I sold it to a co-worker last year for his 16 year old son to drive.
So, let’s say my RAV4 engine failed internally while under warranty. On what planet would I be OK with Toyota finding a used engine with “about” the same usage and me, the customer, allowing them to install it in my vehicle that I had purchased new? And in the severely unlikely event that I did allow such nonsense, I would insist that the warranty coverage start over to cover the replaced part, above and beyond the original time and mileage period. Your presence on RUclips telling the world of your experience is your only shot at getting fair and equitable treatment from the manufacturer. God have mercy on the rest.
I would think that if you paid for a battery pack out of pocket they would give you a brand new battery. A replacement warrantee battery doesn't have to be brand new cells since they are footing the bill, they just need to get your car running in the same condition as the pack should be based on degradation estimates.
We should all know what “warranty” can mean on batteries. People need to “educate” themselves about batteries before jumping ship into an EV. I know batteries and will never purchase an EV. Let’s invest in hydrogen power.
But with an ICE car, when you get any part replaced under warranty it is a brand new part. Also in an accident they only replace parts with new not used.
I just had my engine replaced under warranty (class action law suit) and it is a remanufactured engine. Sounds similar to what telsa is doing with their battery warranty.
@@bigfootandbananaman4746if I’m understanding my remanufactured engine correctly it is just cobbled together with various aged/worn parts it is not 100% new. I really don’t know how old the small block is versus the cams but I hope they don’t have 110K hard miles on them for instance. If I get various aged/worn batteries in a replacement pack it would seem like the same idea. They still build the pack to spec and must meet release requirements I assume just like my engine
@@krisevonRemanufactured engines don’t really “wear” all the parts like the packs do. The majority of the wear parts will be new and I’d expect a reman ICE engine to last every bit as long as a new engine. Things like rings, bearings, and seals will not be reused. Generally that’s the stuff that wears out with age.
Common even in the mobile phone industry. Warranty replacements are often refurbished devices. As long as refurbished/remanufactured objects are held to a good enough standard, this is better for environmental and economic reasons. That said, if the refurbished/remanufactured versions aren’t as good as new or within 99%, something needs to be done imo.
@@bigfootandbananaman4746 Not true. A remanned engine does indeed include many old/used parts in them, and you're now relying on a technician at the local service center to rebuild the engine, vs having the manufacture rebuild it. And where is your proof that a remanned battery won't last as long as a new battery? It might not have the capacity of a new battery, but the life span can very easily be just as long as a new battery.
Glad I this video popped up in my feed. Although I’ve been watching more videos on EV’s this one was incredibly informative. And you’re correct charging customers for a new pack when it’s just a remanufactured one is a rip off and they should be sued.
Our pack did the same thing at 29,000 miles. ‘21 Model Y long range. It was replace with a brand new back after they couldn’t get a refurbished one. 330 miles on charge after we got the new pack. Car is now at 69,000 miles with that pack and 309 miles fully charged. We also have a friend that bought a ‘21 Model 3 long range and his pack went out at 54,000 miles. It was replaced with a refurbished pack this summer. Both cars had the BMSA066 warning. I’m starting to think this was an issue with ‘21 3/Y battery packs. Our why was purchased May if ‘21. Still the best car I’ve owned.
I wonder if you would have better luck by trading this car in for an LFP Model Y. The car won't be as fast but the battery might be more durable for your use case.
@@seltzered No, they stopped making 4680 Model Y’s in October & started selling the CATL RWD model. That’s why the RWD Model is losing 50% of its tax credit next year. Not sure if the change was to make room for CyberTruck production in Austin or b/c the 4680’s were disappointing.
@@lh2338 a lot of initial news headlines and people (including myself) were hoping the Model Y rwd made at Giga Texas was using an LFP battery. They are not according to actual deliveries over the past month. Another alternative though might be the newer Ford Mach-E where some trim levels have LFP (and will list it on the Munroney sticker).
As mentioned above they stopped making the RWD trim in Austin. They’re importing the CATL RWD ones now. Just do a quick Google search & you’ll find the story posted in October at multiple outlets
If two battery packs go bad in the same car, it is unlikely to be a coincidence or defective batteries. Something else in the car may be causing the battery packs to fail. Find out what that something is, and your bad luck should turn into good luck.
Tesla doesn’t replace the defective batteries with a new battery pack. They apparently use “refurbished” batteries. It is very possible that their refurbished process is not that thorough or maybe the refurbished pack is from older batteries.
@@billmcfattison3417 Exactly. Dealing with a used battery most likely means more old cells failed since there are over 4000 of them in a Model Y and the BMS is shutting some cell modules down. That's the one flawed part of the EV business model that keeps me away, battery degradation leading to a massive repair expense.
"Something else in the car..." That would be the driver. Every one of these bad battery complaint videos is a ride share driver charging to 100% daily and discharging to a low percentage. You can't charge NMC batteries to 100% every day and expect them to last.
@billmcfattison3417 I agree. Being an avid tesla fan, I would look on their site for used vehicles. Practically overnight I noticed no more 13'-16' year teslas. I think they take the batteries from them.
Hmm, my suggestion would be for a "rolling" warranty to come into effect when a battery pack is replaced. That way, for the $13,000 the owner would get 8 years of coverage, starting at the replacement date rather than the original purchase date of the car. Alternatively, split the difference. Pay $6,500 and get 4 years/25,000 miles added to whatever remaing time & miles are left on the original battery warranty.
It's still terrible, I bought my 1983 datsun for only 600$ and it made it to 290,000 miles on its original components and got 50 mpg meaning 500 miles on its 10 gallon tank. I just don't think the majority of people could afford an ev, just the people who can afford to buy new cars every 8 years anyways.
I had to replace the battery in my car a few times. It cost only about a hundred dollars and I was able to do it myself in a few minutes. But that's the perks of owning a superior product. A gas powered car.
Traditional, Taiwanese say hello by asking "are you hungry? have you eaten yet?", it's just the way of showing care and affinity. When Tesla owners in Taiwan meet, they greet each others by asking "how many times have you replace the batteries?".....to show care and affinity.
Yeah most people are waking up to this whole ev scam and realising it’s bullsht ! EVs will never be a viable replacement for ICE vehicles until the technology is much better which is decades away. What will you ev evangelists do when insurance companies refuse to insure EVs because they are so dangerous with battery fires ? What will you do when the rare earth minerals needed to manufacture EVs are exhausted and become too expensive to mine ? These EVs are so far from being green and environmentally friendly it’s a joke,it’s not going to work until the technology is far better than it currently is. Fossil fueled vehicles are going to be around for many decades,anyone that thinks otherwise is delusional.
I'm from Australia so enjoy a bit of overseas content. I'm also an electrical engineer so understand the technical side of EV's. This is an interesting story in that the maturity of ICE's is in it "componentisation". For example when an ICE drive train (fuel driven motor) fails you can replace that major component with a long block, a short block or just a new head as required. You don't technically ever replace a full motor in an ICE given the spares market is so comprehensive and not costly. BEV's are heading in that direction but as you've experienced with a major component, the replacement battery market is still very much finding it's way. Russian roulette was the term used. As the EV variants from PHEVs to BEVs have more time in service, we'll just have to wait and see what the spares market ends up looking like.
Batteries need to be covered under warranty for 5 years minimum, maybe more. Europe will enforce this and ensure manufacturers have to sell cars with batteries that don't need to be replaced every 100 000 miles. The cost of replacing a battery is just way too high right now, and tesla is reaping huge profits from failing batteries. They said a battery that has a common failure point needs to be replaced at a cost of $16 000, it cost under $20 in party and a hours labour to fix it.
But the EV fans say its simpler which i always find funny especially since they have no clue just how complex it gets or the fact like Tesla the electric engines are specs are like sports cars.
@@andrewbrown6578I don’t know how manufacturers will actually be able to give 5 year warranty (and what’s the mileage limit over those 5 years)? 😉 Governments have been seriously pushing EVs, and they certainly forced car manufacturers to go faster than they could (most of them, not necessarily Tesla). Technology isn’t being used because it has been improved and tested over decades, but because laws are forcing manufacturers to build them. We’ll always have a problem when laws are much quicker than science, and in Europe, you may remember how much governments pushed diesel sales, because they had less CO2 emissions over petrol cars. 😉 Yes, they did, but they also had the poisonous particles emissions problem, and it was nothing new back then. That knowledge already existed for decades, but that didn’t stoped so many European governments from looking at the CO2 emissions only. There’s a limit on what governments can push automakers, and that includes warranty periods on EV batteries. If manufacturers are forced to give unrealistic warranty periods, either the average price of EV’s will have to increase in order to create a financial “buffer” for the warranty, or it could become the start of the end for that manufacturer. 😉 European manufacturers are already having several problems due (also) to what they were _forced_ to do, rushing the technological progress to their customers, even if some of it is only half baked. I’m not a Tesla fan, but I do believe that credit must be given to what they did with electric cars. They weren’t pushed to build them, they pushed themselves and still have an edge on EV technology. And even with that edge, we’re seeing situations like the one reported in this video! Does anyone believe that any European manufacturer is going to solve these battery problems? I don’t, and let me be clear that most of the dozen plus cars that I’ve owned are from European brands. As for Tesla and EVs in general, time will tell how it worked out. 😉 It’s all great when the car is brand new and shining on the showroom (it has always been). The _big_ question is when situations like these start to become common (and they will, there’s no doubt about it). Will you really want to put your hard earned money on any EV that’s out of warranty? I sure don’t, and we’re already seeing an huge depreciation of prices of out (or near) of warranty EVs. If the used market for them doesn’t grow, they will actually have an even greater depreciation. 😉 And depreciation is one of the big costs of owning _any_ vehicle. The only way they can prevail in the long term is for them to be increasingly cheaper, in such a way that they can be seen as mobile phones, computers, TV’s (etc): - Products with a predicted life, which you throw away or recycle after a certain amount of years. We must keep an open mind to the fact that technology is always improving, and batteries are no exception. But we’re still waiting for any significant evolution on EV batteries that would allow to avoid this huge and expensive ownership cost/risk. Until then, every new EV on the market today is a guaranteed uncertainty over in a relatively short period of years.
As a qualified electronics engineer there are simple ways batteries could be replaced or repaired. Model S packs have had just one cell fail reducing a car to 40 mile range. The one cell was cut out allowing the pack to reach 100% again as the one cell is only 3.6 Volts. If the cell banks could be replaced easier that would solve lots of issues. The major issue with the battery cell bank is they are usually under the car in a protective frame to protect the batteries from collisions. Porsche and VW group use pouch cell packs that can not be repaired as it is hard to remove a separate pouch cell (they are in cell banks). Tesla use individual cells that can be cut out but are now building the car around the battery so the interior of the car needs to be removed. Renault and Nissan had the best idea where you leased the battery so f it failed it was replaced. No one does this now, I wonder why ? Porsche also altered the software of the battery management as the 200 kw charging causes damage a lot quicker. Any DC rapid charging will reduce the life of the battery and all battery packs degrade by about 5% after 2 years even if AC charged. This is due to the battery settling and the chemical reactions as the battery is used.
yes and your not the only E.E here, the current design of these EVs are a joke the only thing they will do is increase our dependence on electricity and increase the price in Australia, As for the cell repair sure in principle but in practice with out a TESLA badge or working at TESLA as s so called TECH it would void the warranties now i can understand that to a point, but it defeats the whole point on the environment factor same with the use of a 500HP engine or a EV that pretends to be a normal car. Thus in the current Design and Topology we can't take them seriously also as an E.E guy you should know the way most cells fail is normally short circuit as well as EOL is short circuit aka dendrite happiness funtime. @@RB-lt8kt
Gas cars have problems too, but a lot of times people don’t calculate the cost over time unless it’s major engine/transmission failure where they had to fork out $2000+. My dad’s Toyota Sienna for example had to go into service multiple times for failed idle control valve, coil packs, thermostats, radiator, brakes, timing belts, water pumps, etc. Each time costing around $700-$1200 since they add in diagnostic fees. But he doesn’t seem to remember those things since the cost is spread over a span of 10 years. He seems to still think it’s cheaper to operate a gas car.
maybe ur daddio just having bad luck? My 17 toyota rav 4 and 15 lexus gx 460 both 120k+ miles, no problem and its almost 10 years old, only thing i did is oil change. Can a testla do that? Like whos gonna buy ur car if u have a bad battery
Thanks for the video. I'm about to buy my first Tesla and we have a service center near by. I was an automobile mechanic in a prior career and worked for repair shops and dealers. I have been reaching out to people who I know that own Tesla's and to local mobile Tesla service techs that I know, just to get what they have to say about the experience of owning and maintaining a Tesla. I mentioned being a mechanic in the ICE world only because in that world we connected with other mechanics and sources of information ALL the time to seek out what was normal and not normal. Going lone ranger and trying to figure this stuff out yourself is really tough.
It looks like you charging often to 100% if you have all these stats. In your situation id consider trading the car to one that has LFP battery pack. Long range battery doesnt "like" to be above 90% or below 10% too often.
@siraff4461 The possibility of increased degradation is not from charging to 90 or 100%, it's the car sitting at those levels all the time. If you charge to 100% and start driving then no problem. But if you charge 100% each day, drive 20 or 30 miles down to 91 or so, then charge up again to 100 each day it's sitting around idle at 90+ a large percentage of the time. So most charge to 80 on a daily basis and then to a 100 before they set out on longer journey. If you're driving 250+ miles each day then sure, charge to 100 each day and that's no problem.
@@siraff4461 Chill out. How often does one need more than 80% range?? 99.9999% of people use their cars for daily commutes of typically less than 30 miles and errands typically of only a few miles. So unless you're going on a trip, there's rarely a need to charge above 80% (and even then with all the chargers, I'd argue you don't even need to charge it above 80% for a trip).
The way the cells are glued into the modules I highly doubt they are pulling out and replacing individual cells. They may put in used modules though even that seems as if it would cause balancing issues.
our associate dentist commutes from LA to Vegas once a week. He drove his new Model 3 for that trip exactly ONE time,..then switched back to his beater Elantra. Funny how he crowed about his zero to sixty in less that 5 seconds, then immediatly switched back to the ICE beater due to the charging time wasted of his new, expensive EV. I guess charging in Barstow in 115 degrees isn't too much fun, especially when you're tired and can't wait to get to your hotel. All the happy talk about "you need to stretch your legs, anyway" was just that: happy talk.
BMW i3, 2014, range was down bellow 70%, after a lot of arguing my BMW dealer replace the pack. I asked, if they replace the damaged cells and they said NO, BMW replace all of them, so basically I got a new battery, which is working perfect after 2 years.
It's the DC fast charging, if he's a Taxi driver, then he's likely going to 100% (which at the top of the pack is just a trickle charge anyway) and then he's immediately using up the power so (same as our phones) it's not like the battery is just SITTING around at full SOC, and keep in mind due to the internal safety buffer it's technically not really at 100%, no, it's only shown that way to the driver.
That wouldn’t cause this problem, if that were true then the whole pack would have degraded more evenly. It’s pretty obvious a cell or two failed (more likely), or he got a coolant leak into the battery (less likely). That would have happened anyway, supercharging or no.
@@HumbleBearcat some new Tesla Y have LFP batteries, thry have been used in China teslas since 2021, and you won’t need to worry about any 10%-80% rule as they do not degrade the same.
Yes and no. Charging from 0-100 makes it so your battery meets its rated cycle life. Avoiding the bottom and top 10-20% will increase it beyond its rated cycle life. Or in other words, dont worry about it.
After just 46,000 miles and 4 1/2 years of ownership, last week Tesla service advised me against driving my car as the HV battery was about to fail. It is now at the service centre awaiting a replacement HV battery. Tesla provided a Loaner car (awful experience due to arguments/charges over existing damage). But my main concern after hearing your experience is the potential poor standard of the replacement refurb battery, the lack of extended warrantee (still be based on my car's age and total mileage) and the potential cost of a future out of warrantee replacement if it fails again. Tesla say that would cost just under GBP £20,000 ($25,000). More than the value of the car which, by the way, is dropping like a stone! I am now questioning the value of EVs. The batteries are clearly unreliable and expensive to replace. When the HV battery fails, the warrantee does NOT cover a NEW replacement battery and the chance of receiving an unreliable replacement battery is increased due to being refurbished from a previously failed battery. The seemingly generous 120k mile warrantee isn't helpful. Now that my head is full of all these concerns, I will not buy another Tesla.Currently, I am concerned my car will become a worthless risk as soon as the warrantee period is up in 2027, just 3 1/2 years from now or less if I increase my annual mileage. I have been very careful with my charging habits since owning my car from new and diligently followed the 80/20 rule charging mostly at home. I hardly use superchargers.
I bought a new Model Y standard range AWD with the 4680 pack in April 23. I drove it regularly and just charged in level 1 or 2 most of the time. With in a month I received the same error code and had to have my pack replaced with less then 3,000 miles on it. After it was replaced about a month later I received the same code and had to have the second battery replaced again. After that I requested that Tesla buy back my car which they did because I felt there was an issue with the software or the car. I decided to downsize after that bought a Bolt EUV which is okay because I’m worried about the 4680 reliability but will probably go back to them at some point once I feel their battery are more reliable. I miss my amenities of the Tesla for sure and the Bolt is okay… but I’ll just wait to get the Model 3 Highlander once it comes to the US.
@@Tschacki_Quacki Because they claimed that EPA range when they sold the car. Simple. It’s common knowledge now that Tesla games the EPA test to achieve higher ranges than they actually can, but that doesn’t change the fact that the EPA mileage is the expected mileage.
@@Tschacki_Quacki Tesla should stop selling their cars to the "average dummy" then. Tesla should only sell to cult members such as yourself. Only "smart" guys like yourself deserve to own that car. Am I right?
I have played around with modules that form a full batter pack . I think 4 modules make up a pack but maybe more for bigger packs. The module cells are glued together and would be very hard to repair at the cell level. My guess is that they are matching modules to make a pack. I would sell the car and buy a new car. A bad pack out of warranty could cost you a large amount of money.
The battery replacement cost for these BEV's are higher than the residual value left in the vehicle. Everyone talks about cost savings running a BEV, but this cost, which will certainly one day have to be dealt with, makes BEV's a COST INCREASE over ICE cars. Then there are the increased insurance, repairs, tyres. Still early days for BEV.
It's becoming increasingly obvious that EV are still at an experimental stage and until the multiple issues have been properly addressed I'm sticking with my super reliable Golf R
Great video Tollak! Here is to hoping that your third pack stays sound. Since you were showing around 315 when you got the new pack maybe it was a fresh one that was referenced as remanufactured by Tesla. I have high hopes that the newer batteries are more resilient than the older ones. Here is to hoping for 200k on the latest pack!!
I wonder if some battery packs and BMS systems have been slightly damaged depending on where and how they've been charged. Like if a specific charging station has unusual large spikes in power possibly causing changes in pulse width modulation that the BMS does not handle well. It might be causing extra degradation each time you charge if some cells are falling out of balance or being overcharged. The charging networks are all owned by different companies and who knows if there are design issues at the charging level or even with the power grid at your home. AC power from the grid can be clean or dirty, higher and lower voltage depending on the area and it's being converted to generate the DC EV charging. I know at my work we had a phase issue with the power in the building and while that is AC power it still took out a couple of computer monitors and a couple power supply's in some servers and workstations. We have a lot of the same model of professional equipment and most of them survived but some did not. Point being the ones that still work likely took some electronic damage or degradation.
Most battery disassembly available online show that most BMS failing do so due to humidity in the pack. Having the BMS in the battery itself is really a bad design choice from Tesla.
Driving an ICE vehicle down to nearly empty is no big deal, but do the same thing in an EV on a regular basis, and you will be replacing packs on a regular. My guess is the rigors of rideshare and using the full range day after day is what's killing it.
Nope. I had an i-MiEV and I daily charged it to 100% and drained to 0-5 miles remaining. My car has one of the best batteries (SoH value) in the community.
You can't drive an EV empty. It shuts off before you could reach any dangerous emptyness. Especially Teslas, that have a hidden reserve of 4.2% after 0% and another dedicated buffer beyond that. There is also almost no reason to drive an EV nearly empty on a regular basis in the first place, since you don't need dedicated gas station stops. You usually gain nothing from driving it empty before you charge. You can plug it in at any time. I never came to a convenient charging spot and thought to myself: "But I'm not empty yet." That's simply not how EV ownership works (for most people).
@user-bb7up7xv8m Well, the fact of the matter is that ALL of the cells that are used in todays EV's experience rapid degradation once the charge dips below around 30%. Some cells are higher quality, and some have better bms, but it's a losing battle. I think people should be given a basic chemistry lesson prior to purchasing an EV. And to your point about there being no reason to drive until the battery is flat- you are correct. Unless said owner uses the vehicle's limited range as a way to produce income. I believe that is the case here.
@@jbrc1322 Can you point to any data that shows that today's EV batteries (which aren't the same at all) experience "rapid degradation" below 30%? If it is such basic chemistry knowledge, I'm sure you can quote some sources.
Dude, you're charging your car to a 100% every day. It tells you not to do that, so you're not following the recommendation. I charge between 20-80% on my Tesla. I also work for a electric aircraft company so I know a lot about the batteries. Don't charge to 100% all the time. It's not good for the pack because batteries charge at a different rate from one another, and when you go to 100%, you overcharge some of the cells. Hope this helps everyone. I have a 2021 model y with 44,000 miles and have lost 5 miles so far.
Thank you so much for commenting, helps balance out the rest of I formation on the internet about some people having great model Y and others having nightmares with them. and it seems that at the end of the day, it is until the cars are used in real life that unknown and untested issues show up.
BTW. If you get your bumper cover replaced there is no rule or practice that says you get a new bumper cover. Body repair often involves used or remanufactured parts that have come from a salvage yard. It is only in the consumers mind that body panels are all new when they get their car repaired. What Tesla are doing with battery packs is standard practice in the automotive world.
@@yourlogicalnightmare1014 Tesla did almost do it. They just never followed through for unknown reasons. Elon just randomly trashed the idea years later. And Tesla isn't the only ones who can come up with unique concepts. They were just first to the game. Much like Apple isn't always the first to new tech on phones.
9 месяцев назад+12
Just FYI: You do NOT necessarily get a "new" bumper (or other parts) in the event of a collision requiring replacement unless your car is brand new. I've been in the collision-repair industry for 5 decades (that's 50 years for the common-core grads) and most insurance companies today will specify either "re-manufactured" (repaired old bumpers), "aftermarket" (Chinese knockoffs that may not fit right), or LKQ (like kind/quality...which is from a junkyard).
A side question for you, am I the only one having terrible luck with LKQ refinished wheels? I ended up having to order 12 and returning 8 of them for major finished defects just to get a good set.
I’m confused here. He stated specifically that when you’re IN warranty they replace your bad pack with a refurbished pack. By him making that specific note, it seems he’s inferring that if you are out of warranty that you would get a new pack as a replacement pack. Then later when he’s specifically talking about being out of warranty he states that you’re paying $13,000 for a refurbished pack. So it seems that he’s saying regardless of whether you’re in or out of warranty, if you need a replacement pack it is always going to be a refurbished pack that Tesla give you, NEVER a completely new pack. Is that correct?
I would like to know about this as well. Also if you are out of warranty and are paying for the replacement pack, can you pick what battery pack it's replaced with. For instance I would probably want an LFP battery pack rather that an pack with NCA/NCM type chemistries... Seems like an LFP pack would also be better suited for 'ride share' as well.
My understanding is a refurbished pack is around 10k and a new one is around $20k.. but that’s IF Tesla will sell you some, and that’s what I’m wondering.
A 2170 cell on whole sale is about 1.50 per cell, multiply that to 4400 which is the amount of cells in model y with 21700 cell pack.. That’s about 6600 bucks just for the cells plus the bms and packaging cost.. Ev’s are for upper class and defiantly not for taxi business.
With non-structural battery packs, you have the option to cut off failed/shorted cells, and operate with reduced capacity. Only time will tell, if the structural pack are worth the hype!. Packs that use panasonics batteries(not the 4680 structural packs) are easily repairable.
I suspect the 4680 battery packs should have less of these "bad" cell issues because of the tabless design. Those tabs on typical battery cells are the weakest link. With all the high energy demands put through those tabs, if one wasn't properly welded to the collector or the cathode and anode, heat will degrade the connection an eventually lead to a failure.
It appears to me as I compare development of technology in user activity; that todays ev development is in a similar state as aviation was in the 1920's
The reason that Tesla remanufactured batteries cost $13k-$20k is because that's what batteries cost. A new one would cost significantly more so it isn't as if Tesla is doing something wrong by charging that much money, especially with the liability and warrantying of rebuilding something like a high voltage battery pack. Every other manufacturer is having trouble with battery replacement costs because they do not have a system in place to supply remanufactured units. The Ford Lightning battery is around $36k, Mustang Mach E at $24k plus core, labor, and shipping, Ioniq 5 at around $50k, Hummer EV is $36k plus labor (pretty cheap considering the capacity). It is also my understanding that Tesla applies a 4yr/ 50k mile warranty to reman. batteries. I would not recommend anyone own an EV out of warranty, failures are low but the manufacturer doesn't trust it and if it fails you're pretty much screwed.
Great information and insights, thanks! Having some experience with turbine aircraft, where engines can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars there are companies who basically lease engines on a per-hour and calendar-year basis, and it often makes sense for revenue operator as major out of pocket costs are avoided, and fixes and variable costs are known. For vehicles out of warranty perhaps a third party could offer remanufactured packs on a "Power-By-The-Mile' basis. Also, could a salvaged pack be an option if your current pack fails out of warranty?
@@chrissmith2114 The way I see it In aviation and potentially with Batteries that can cost more than the vehicle Chris, it's a way mitigate a potentially catastrophic unplanned expense and minimal down time in the event of a failure, that could render an owner making payments on and asset that if unusable severely devalued. Aviation MSP/Power by the Hour' programs are often less expensive than engine ownership as the provider has large pool of resources and can re-manufacture engines for less than a factory reman or new. And if the airframe were to become airworthy the operator can simply send the engines back and scrap the airframe. With Private Jets, an operator can buy an aircraft less engines for about 1/3 or less the cost of an aircraft with engines included. And can run with top quality engines for an hourly charge, and offset additional costs with the lower capitol cost. If Tesla owner start experiencing battery problems as you have encountered, perhaps battery insurance might be worthwhile.
@@jackoneil3933 I have never had or needed engine or fuel tank insurance on any ICE car, so battery insurance will be just another cost of EV ownership
@@chrissmith2114 Indeed. But when you buy a new car you are paying for a warranty (Insurance) for everything on that vehicle. If one needs or chooses to buy a vehicle that has $18,000 component with a finite and risk of unpredictable failure, leasing such a component can be a cost-effective option if your have high utilization and re saving a significant amount on operation costs such as fuel, on that vehicle vs. an alternative ICE vehicle. Low-use private owners of Private Jets tend to own their engines that could be $450,000 each and lease their engines if they are high-use commercial operators. I was trying to draw a parallel to high-use commercial Tesla operators, as as suggestion for a service. For example, If a company provides you a battery on a five year 200,000 mile basis, basis for $20,000 over that term that's $0.10/per mile and $4,000 per year or $333.33 per month, that you can write-off as a direct operating lease cost, and if the battery ever fails you get a fast replacement for not much more than taking out a loan on a replacement battery that might fail at any time. A comparable ICE Vehicle is going to be about $0.15 to $0.24/per mile for fuel vs. $0.10 per mile for battery reserve and $.05 to $0.18 per mile for home vs. Supercharging, so even if you got 5 years out of your owned Tesla battery the leased battery would only add about 20 to 30% to your battery cost. If your owned battery only lasts 60,000 miles you the leased battery cost is about 1/3. It may be a a bit of a foreign concept to grasp, but I've been running it for years on aircraft, and leasing engines is often the cheaper, safer way to operate.
@@chrissmith2114 exactly, an expense with EV's that heretofore consumers have been "suckered" (and "suckered themselves" not to put too fine a point on it) into believing doesn't exist... as anybody familiar with Fleet Maintenance will tell you (ref: Jack-O) EVERY vehicle made by Man has a "running cost" to one degree or another. yeah Hertz and now Sixt are seeing more clearly, but the reality is they both should've known better, and pros don't let laymen tell them how to run their business (since these laymen could be Frauds)... ultimately then costs can't be HIDDEN nor can they be ESCAPED, no, we just like playing "shell games" with costs to see if we can make someone else bear the burden.
To be fair, ICE manufacturer's frequently use remanufactured components whenever possible. Like if an engine or transmission fails and they have a remanufactured part option, that is what they use. They are supposed to meet certain specifications so it should be a good reliable part. As you say, it would be useful to know if this is a common failure or not. I don't own an EV but wouldn't mind having one as a second car for daily short trips within its range. I just can't justify it until the prices come down. I am curious about reliability issues, I know everyone thought that because of far less moving parts EV's would be significantly more reliable. As an engineer that works with and repairs MRI systems (also practically no moving parts) I was/am very skeptical of that assertion. That is another big issue with EV's, there are almost no 3rd party options for parts and repairs. I can't help but think that a high reliability fuel efficient ICE car like a Toyota would make a lot more sense for doing LYFT/Uber.
@@andypeterson2126 A blown head gasket on a Prius? That is extremely unusual, I have seen many ICE cars run for well over 300,000 miles with just basic maintenance. Especially high usage service vehicles because most of the wear and tear comes from the cold starts. It is not unusual to see ICE cabs go well over half a million miles on the original engine. This is what we already know about ICE cars, if it's a good design and properly maintained, ICE cars do really well with high usage applications (in general). With EV's we don't have a lot of data yet. For example we know that the batteries are damaged more if you use a lot of fast charging, let them get below 40% or charge them over 80%, charge them when they are hot or to cold. Perhaps that is why this gentlemen is going through so many batteries. It could be in his type of usage he is doing one or all of these things frequently. Also I have heard that some cars (high end models) have much better battery heating and cooling systems. As I understand it the Model Y is a relatively low cost EV for Tesla and does not have the best temperature control system. It could be for this type of usage you need a more heavy duty system to hold up to the stress of this type of usage. Whereas this car is designed more for mainly average light usage. Also those new larger cells that Tesla developed are much better as well so... It is still a relatively new technology and they are clearly still working out several issues. This is why a good ICE car is still a much safer bet. Especially when you have to depend on it for revenue and you are on a budget. Then there is the fact that practically anyone can work on and get parts for an ICE car. These are very important factors when you are relying on it for your livelihood. I am just guessing here but it seems to make sense.
@@ericmichel3857 I don’t know from my research from the Internet. It seems like my EGR valve and I want for my air intake manifold. I’ll probably clogged carbon and it might have been the reason for the overheating which might have warped the motor and or destroyed my head gasket in my Prius
@@ericmichel3857 Interesting have you thought how much you would have spent on fuel at 500,000kms, compared to say being able to charge an EV at off peak rates. The average car in Australia uses 11l/100km (ABS), petrol costs about $2 a litre, therefore at 500k you would have spent $110,000 on fuel, before we consider the maintenance costs of keeping an ICE vehicle on the road that long. In my EV I use 12kwh/100km and can charge at 7c/kwh, therefore the electricity cost for the same kms is $4,200, my car has a 60kwh LFP battery pack, which is likely to have a longer life than Li NMC and be cheaper to replace.
Uhhh no. When a component on an ICE vehicle fails it is replaced with a new OEM component. I have never received remanufactured components for any repairs done on my ICE vehicles.
Had the same thing happen to me at 86k miles. You might get a new pack if they don't have any remanufactured ones in stock. The remanufactured pack that I received read that it had 312 Miles of range on it. It has had better degradation than my original new pack so I'm pretty happy with it. I'm now at about 122k miles, so pretty much out of warranty. If it happens to die again I think I'll just part the car out and get a new one.
My 2014 Model S at >500,000 km now got its 3rd battery this spring. Quite suddenly it would only charge to little over 100 km. Out of pocket around 20,000 USD. Front desk employee wouldn't tell new range or warranty specs of remanufactured pack at pickup. Something else generally not really talked about imho on EV's: when I charge up to x km range, days later I don't have that range anymore. After two weeks not driving, maybe 100 km range you paid for could be gone with the wind, maybe depending on your climate. 😮😢😊 Overall imo: repair quasi monopoly should be illegal, and electro magnetic field safety should be discussed more publicly.
Teslas lose around 1 to 2% of battery charge per day, simply to maintain the electronics, telematics etc 24/7. I am not surprised at the loss of range after a few days if your loss is at the upper end of the scale.
In Denmark (EU) the law says that you have a 2 year warranty, during this period they must not use used parts, after that under their own extra warranty it is legal. If the part is replaced, the warranty starts over on the replaced part.
For EV, I believe Nio concept is the best. They have a program to sell car without batteries which makes car price more affordable. Then customer rent a battery with monthly charge and “battery swapping” services. Like you rent a car and no need to pay repairing fee if car malfunction. You neither have to worry about warranty or mileage you run nor battery degradation due to service life span as you always can swap a new one. Some would argue that but would be cheaper especially the peoples who crazy about long range. However, battery is the main threat to EV car life time and re-sell prices. As car itself can run 20-30 years and other parts are reasonably cheap to replace. In addition, once battery tech improves then you could have chance to use updated tech especially “safety” as old batteries will die IR unqualified to use fir car. For Nio, battery rental will be a regular income stream like Office 365 or Netflix and could hold customer loyalty if they provide service. BTW, US might miss out this option as “national security” will stop Chinese car to sell in US either ban or high import tariffs.
I have a nice big old fashion V-8 luxury car. I appreciate these videos because I never want an EV. I don't want to worry about charging and if I have an accident that I have to scrap out my car. You better get rid of that car before it's out of warranty. I will just keep gassing up my car and driving 400 miles or more. Thanks
The Tesla that was used at a drag race back in the early days of Tesla performed great in the first few races. Then things went south with more races. The Tesla just couldn't hold its speed over time.
@@777jrg They hide it. Of course as a battery starts to run down power changes. Power of a regular car pretty well maintains its power no matter how many time you give it gas. EV’s do not.
The problem I see with remanufacturing packs is that diminished cells working along side "still good" cells in a pack is a bad idea, depending on how soon the the problem is identified and rectified. If your average owner, continues to the drive the EV with some compromised cells and ignores the BMS066 code for a while, then the subusequent reman pack from their ex battery will contain cells that "are still good" but that have been exposed to cells with internal shorts. You may have got a cells in your reman pack that were in a car where the owner didn't id the problem or take notice of it for a while.
I drive a 2023 Honda CRV Hybrid. After owning it for 2 months and driving about 4K miles, I had a total battery failure. Thankfully I was under warranty and Honda ordered and replaced my battery. This took nearly two months, and they did loan mt a car during the time. When I signed off on the service, I saw that the battery cost was $7K. I was shocked! I hope this battery doesn't fail outside of warranty because we could not afford to replace it. This is a small hybrid battery, so I couldn't imagine a full electric car battery price like on a Tesla. 😨
Nice video, I did my research a few years ago about battery cost, that’s one reason why I’m not going to buy any EV, buy conventional cars or hybrid, good luck to you, hoping this will be your last issue 🚍🚘🏎️
It would be very difficult for them to reconfigure packs. I believe the packs in the 3 and Y are essentially one big block of glue. It's more likely for them to swap for packs that didn't meet their 'new pack' standards.
I think it's safe to say you can skip all of the "one weird trick" stuff to get more out of your Tesla battery. If you fully charge, the cells _must_ be balanced or the high cells will die; that's just how Li packs have to be charged and it's accounted for. Tesla's handling of batteries problems and their obvious manufacturing defects (water ingress) are why I have another brand's EV on order right now even though, counting the $7500 Federal incentive... Model 3 is more than a little tempting. ...well, that and, we're pretending they're a smart company but no one there has figured out that a long-roof wagon is utterly superior to a sedan. Telsa, I think you make some of the ugliest cars on the planet, but if there was a model 3 estate... I'd be in crisis right now.
In our market here in the US long roof sedan don't sell well. Model Y is the best selling vehicle in the World, including gasoline cars. So they must be doing something right.
The reason the model Y is selling so well is that companies are buying them because of government mandate. And car lots can't sell these things so they are "buying" them and selling them as second hand. Hertz just dumped their entire fleet of teslas. A few more years and this China backed push for EV's will be over.
I am in the same situation as you. Model 3 2021, I had my battery replaced in June of 2024 with 60k miles. Sep this month I had the same error again!! And just like you I immediately drove it in and now I’m currently waiting for them to repair my Tesla. I have 65k miles on it and still am good up to 120k however it really concerns me if this keeps happening and I will absolutely not pay 13k for another battery
To compare your situation with an ICE car owner, it's like the ICE car had to change engine 3 times in the first 2 years of ownership and still not knowing if his 3rd engine would last him, specially after the warranty goes out. Crazy.
@utbunny This doesn't appear to be a lemon. His problem sounds like. The battery does not like being charged so frequently. The motor of an ICE car is currently less to replace than a Tesla battery. Their are examples of both electric & ICE cars having very high mileage. The point is that battery cost currently about $20,000 or more. If you are not under warranty. You will be paying for it or selling the car with a major lost of profit. Electric car technology currently is not better than ICE cars. And the charging infrastructure definitely isn't. Sorry. Try having a problem with one and see how complex, expensive, and long it will take to fix out of warranty. And trust me; I did plenty of research. I almost bought a Model S Performance. It's still a lot of uncertainty with these cars right now. Tesla's Model S hasn't even been here 15 years.
I think this is an excellent opportunity to bring battery pack replacements under warranty with attorneys experienced in "Lemon Law" issues. It is one thing to have one battery fail. But two or more deserves to have assistance in consumer protections under state law either by a skilled attorney or state Attorney General.
I’ve only heard one person every that actually needed their battery replaced. I did have a buddy this year have to take back two brand new tacomas to Toyota because of unrepairable engine problems in their new v6. Read the thousands of reviews from model y owners who are well over 100k miles with no problems. Guy in Australia drove his model y 500,000 miles on the original battery.
13k for replacement pack accounts for salvage value of ur pack. We can order brand new packs which cost 21k. Replacement packs have 1 year unlimited mile warranty.
Perfect example of why we need right to repair laws. Tesla has no interest in doing the right thing here; they just want you to buy a new car, like any corporation. What we need is more competition so consumers could buy third party batteries.
Tesla replaced the batteries so they did, in fact, do the right thing
In this case they did the "right" for them thing but where it gets difficult is for out of warranty failures, where right to repair because more important.@@theotherphil
@@theotherphil You don't understand, the right to repair laws mean third party can fix the product, not only the maker. Tesla don't want or sell any parts to the others specialised in EV garage that are able to fix it too. Example in this case, I bet it not a cell as the owner think is the trouble but a trouble with something with the BMS or part of it (My jugement based on the rapid degradation and no Error on the voltage). Bms is only a mini electrical control board, cost ??? 20$ maybe for the part. Of course Tesla prefer to sell a new battery pack for 13 000$, way much profit for Tesla and if this fear the owner to buy new car, again better for Tesla probably again. Right now, to replace this 20$ electrical board, specialized EV garage need now to buy used part to be able to fix Tesla since Tesla still don't allow it....
@@sergiomomesso1590 Why would you want to repair when it’s still under warranty? It’s easier and cheaper for Tesla to swap out the whole pack, get you back on the road in the shortest time frame and worry about repair/ recycle later.
Tesla is not the only manufacturer that does this. Ask farmers about repairing tractors.
2016 Tesla Model S, with over 101,000 miles…. So far no issues with the battery. Drove cross country once and many times to Mexico.
I got a 2015 85d with 211k on original pack. battery only has 12% degredation
@@tbarrera1833 Wow this is great. I have a 2024 Model Y RWD, I was hoping it will last 10 years atleast.
@@VijayBhaskar1991there is no guarantee it will last past the warranty. Problem is not batteries they will last 500k or more problem is that whole battery is thousands of small batteries connected with each other and those connections can oxidize due to humidity, batteries can get unbalanced, quality of each individual battery can vary and almost those variables lead to age being the most important factor in lifespan of battery.
This video might be the tipping point for me. I don’t think I can afford to afford a car that’s 1) expensive to begin with, 2) expensive to repair, 3) unreliable, and 4) more difficult and expensive to service than gasoline engines, requiring even more specialized electrical “mechanics.”
This was done under warranty. Besides the replacement my car has been VERY low maintenance. As I said in the video the rest of the car mechanically has been flawless.
or just watch any mark mills video of the past 5 years
@@chargepozitiveI think the problem is that, with most things electric, things are treated as disposable rather than repairable. Had this not occurred under warranty, you'd have been in a world of hurt such that the car isn't worth repairing due to the cost involved. An EV with no battery is worth parts.
@@chargepozitive I have driven my Toyota over 100,000 miles and have had nothing repair not even under warranty
@@chargepozitivehard to believe that our ancestors used to be rugged frontiersmen and farmers. But I'm sure you are living the dream fella
I know a parts guy that works at a Honda dealership. He told me that all the replacement packs in cars, even under new car warranty, are rebuilt packs. As the gentleman stated, they salvage good cells from bad batteries and assemble a used pack that has all good cells. Of course, you never know when the rebuilt pack might fail. Could be a year, a month or a week. There is no way to tell. So, make sure you buy the extended warranty and then get rid of the car once the original pack fails.
Good call!
Name that dealership, they certainly are doing that to rip off customers. There is no way using rebuild part for warranty works, unless it is a really old one out of warranty and the customer is aware of it. My company had an 2001 Honda odyssey, it has a transmission failure under warranty, that model year is known for transmission design issue, it was replaced with brand transmission. That is the only experience that I had for the past 30 year with replacement of major drive train components for Honda or Toyota.
@@haihengh not a rip off. It is the modus operandis for EV battery replacements. The only time an EV will ever have a new battery pack is when it leaves the factory.
"Could be a year, a month or a week." - or a decade.
Read the warranty before you by. This is the same with ice and lots of equipment. They reserve the right to evaluate replace or repair/rebuild bla bla bla
I've been following your discussion about changing the battery three times under warranty, and now that you're almost out of warranty, it's the main reason I'm holding off on buying a Tesla. The thought of having to replace the battery for $25,000 if it stops working has been a concern. However, I've recently discovered that they don't install entirely new batteries; instead, they rebuild them, which adds another layer of consideration for me.
It becomes scrap
@@safeandeffectivelol It doesn't. The faulty module is replaced and the pack is put back into service in a different car.
@@tahustvedtyou have the option of buying a new pack or a reman pack at a lower price. a reman has already failed. better to buy new.
I don't quite see the point of concern here. On Ice vehicles the engine can brake as well which on vehicles with similar performance cost often more than a new and I mean Factory new Battery pack.
Also the warranty is 8 Years which is nice.
Great video thanks for sharing your experience! I have a Model 3 Performance and after 8 months and 6'000 miles (9'000 km as drive in Switzerland) my BMS showed BMS_a029, which is about the same as your note. They also gave me a "new" battery pack after 4 weeks. I use an OBD and with the OBD you can "see" how many DC and AC charged kWh have been put into the "new" / replaced refurbished battery pack. In my case, considering the average kWh/ km or mile I had so far, the OBD data showed that the "new", refurbished battery pack had at LEAST already around 25'000 km , or 15'500 miles on it BEFORE it was installed in my Model 3 P which had at that time only 6'000 miles or around 9'000 km. thus, the refurbished, or "new" battery pack was NOT quite "comparable" in regards to the mileage to my initial battery pack but had about 2.5 as many miles on it!! Now, without installing an OBD (on board diagnostic) tool i would have NEVER found out! What do you think of that?
Honestly you could probably sue Tesla for it. Under warranty, especially during the first year, they have to provide an equivalent or better replacement. Not a worst one.
Imagine if an ICE car maker were to replace your motor with a used one, or repair it with used part, nobody would accept that. There is no reason for Tesla to get away with it.
Stupid question, the tesla accepts an OBD tool? Is it a regular OBDII hookup or is it a specific OBD tool? Just got my Model3 P about 9 months ago, I haven’t had a problem yet so I don’t know much about the car except driving it. Any information will be helpful, thanks in advance.
@@fdeguilla specific cable that can hook to a standard obd reader
Any OBD or Tesla specific units?
@barn2255 not sure which industry you refer to.
Any warranty claim I ever had either repaired my product or replaced any broken part with a new one.
Especially in the car industry, never heard of a second-hand part being installed.
Even when replacing entire motors under warranty om ICE a new one gets installed.
I've been doing Lyft on my mach-e and already put on 20,000+ miles since starting 6 months ago, now I may get a bit nervous how durable and reliable the mach-e battery pack is. Thanks for sharing your story!
There are a lot of EV rideshare drivers now. Som have way more miles and their battery is fine. Some were not like the Uber on KimJava video.
@@chargepozitive I'll have to check out her video next. I'm really interested to know how's your overall experience driving for Lyft with your model y? I'm gonna be making a video on mine pretty soon
@@TheRealMerchyBautista same here!
@@chargepozitive
While there aren't that many videos out there with people having battery issues (at least for Tesla), I think it's clear that when there ARE problems, the combo is always the same: a ton of miles + super charging exclusively. I've had my Tesla Model Y Long Range almost 2 months now. I've super charged only once and that was just to see how it's done. I charged to 80% like always and only needed to add 30 miles or so. The average person, who's putting 15K miles or less on their car every year and is using an L1/L2 charger 90% of the time will end up with a car that gives you 300K miles or more.
I had a Mach E before they are known for being very reliable except the HVJB issue and the software glitches. I am sure you can do it
This is sad. I have a 2007 Lexus 400h with 200k miles and haven’t had any issues only tires and oil changes. I do upwards of 200 miles a day doing deliveries. It’s an amazing how my 16 year old vehicle is holding up better than a new Tesla.
I just had to spend $9,000 on a new transmission for a Subaru Outback that was six years newer than your car with 130K miles. That's like a battery going out, pretty much.
@@incognitotorpedo42Subaru isn't as reliable as Toyota unfortunately. If you're doing a lot of miles, a Toyota is probably best cost per mile over the ownership.
@@incognitotorpedo42In Europe, Subaru is considered the worst car manufacturer, even the Italian Fiat is better.
@@SKYLIMIReally? How reliable is VW there? I heard that VWs are considered reliable in Europe. They’re considered unreliable here in the US
30,000k for gas,with an mpg of 30 price of 4.50 per gallon without gas spikes.
Vehicle 8,000 purchase or more.
Struts,springs and rubber are probably due.2k DIY and dealership 3.5k.
70 dollars per service every 8 thousands miles 1,750 dollars.
2.5k for tires on that mileage.
40k + assuming your car has had no issues,no car accidents or small repairs.Next year annual expenses are still coming.
In a way you’re paying every year for half of battery 🤷🏻♂️
We have had Teslas in our family for 9 years and never had any battery problems with a Model S, 2 Model Ys, and a Model 3. Best cars we have ever owned and I have owned Mercedes, BMWs, Audis, Ferraris, and Aston Martins. I think there are too many people commenting here who are uninformed or just plain making it up.
Your review is actually super helpful. Thank you so much for sharing!
Fantastic and fair video.I had no idea they were doing this with the battery packs.
Transmission also
What do you think they’re doing with cell phone used battery trash cans at the Best Buy’s of the world.
Insanely good business. Get a few bad cell modules on a pack, replace them, sell as new pack for $10-20k to those, who aren't on warranty anymore. And if it's under warranty, it really costs almost nothing to replace the bad modules, only shipping back and forth plus a loaner for the customer. I will be buying Tesla stocks right now. 🤣
You have to understand that re-manufacturing a pack is not "swapping a few cells". Rich over at RichRebuilds still has to charge a lot of money when he "repairs" a pack. The labour and the skill level, the safety requirements etc is significant. Quite often, the issue isn't bad cells, it's water ingress and damaged communication boards. The description of the process in this video is incorrect. They don't salvage the cells. They pull any damaged modules and boards and replace them. The process is pull the battery, open the battery without damaging the case permanently, diagnose the fault, replace the damaged parts and re-seal the battery to "as new" condition. It's labour intensive and a minimum two person operation because you're dealing with extremely high DC voltages. Tesla can probably do it cheaper because they will have access to wholesale new parts and battery modules.
So if significant supercharging prematurely erodes Tesla batteries, then Teslas should only be used locally or where daily L2 charging is 80-90% available. This would then require a 2nd ICE vehile for road trips which hurts the push to all EV. Most road trips require 95-100% L3 charging as L2 infrastructure on the road is very limited when available.
The new packs are not serviceable at all. They are filling them full of polyurethane, which makes them impossible to work on.
If you pay for a new battery, you will get a new battery, not a remanufactured one as you are implying.
Try finding a few bad cells in thousands.... and you need to discharge the battery pack before messing inside it, makes the problem of finding those illusive bad cells even worse. The cells are in series and parallel connection making matters even worse.
Personally, I would like to see the packs to be manufactured to be maintainable. Munro's dissection of some Tesla packs demonstrate that maintainability, by Tesla or a 3rd party is not a goal. Matching cells within a battery leads to the longest pack life practicable. I am not sure the balancers can offset poor cell matching. Good luck with your goal.
Yes, cell balancing just brings the maximum voltage of a single set of parallel cells in a series string to the same value once fully charged. The capacity of the battery is limited entirely by the capacity of the weakest set of parallel cells. If a single cell's fuse dies, the entire pack's capacity from then on will be reduced by the rating of that one cell.
I believe Tesla's modules are put in series (something like 46P 24S per pack and 4 packs in series), so if a single cell goes, it'll be just over 2% extra degradation. That makes it odd why sometimes the capacity goes down so drastically, and points to something else than just the battery cells dying. Perhaps there's some connection issue. (Edit: that's with the 2170 cells)
Interesting video, I use to have a model Y performance, had it for three years on lease, at 40K miles replaced 2 sets of tires, normal driving, followed charging to the T, one battery pack replaced under warranty, second one started to degrade at 86% just before 3 years was up, had rear power drive unit replaced under warranty, had to drive a rental car for almost a month because tesla had parts shortages, Every charge was on DC fast charging, very bumpy uncomfortable ride compared to my Audi A6. Glad I am done with EV's. Dodged the massive repair bills. Now I got Camry Hybrid XSE, I could go anywhere, No More RANGE ANXIETY and much comfortable than Model Y or any Tesla
What is there so much talk about “fast charging?” Does anyone really know what fast charging does to batteries? To long for me to explain. But they will tell any lies/not full truth about fast charging to sell EV’s.
@@gerrydave7586 Most EV fanbois are in denial about fast charging's effects on battery life. They are also in denial about extreme cold or hot climate's effects on battery life.
@@gerrydave7586electrician here. Yeah fast charging is obviously terrible for batteries. Which everyone should know, as fast charging is bad for phone battery too.
Range anxiety?😂😂 you sound like you have cats and a lot of them too. Im sure picking out flavored ice cream is a challenge for you. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
173K miles on my model 3 standard 2021. can confirm the battery pack experience makes you rethink the viability of the car for business needs. i paid 8.6k out of warranty for the RMN pack. its better to sell prior to battery warranty going. for context my first pack failed at give or take 108k miles.
This is good to know. You go a subreddit for Tesla and everyone will tell you otherwise.
@@begley09 yeah no im very straightforward lol. i just had to pay 3k for a new a/c last week im over it
It seems to me that Tesla (and other makers) should provide a long warranty on reman battery packs, regardless of whether provided as part of warranty service or paid with cash.
I got a brand new model x about 3 weeks ago. At under 500 miles was plugged into a supercharger and battery died. Model x is still in the service center on our 6th day. Supposed to be done and replaced in 2 days, fingers crossed. Everyone I have talked to says I just had bad luck and this isn’t very common. Hoping no more issues since the model x was my dream vehicle. Good info and thanks for the video
Fuuukkk. Bought a model x a few months ago and it’s only been great. Hope things with out soon
I got it back and everything is fine. I got a new battery was installed a week later we will see how long it lasts. I love the model x in every way it is my dream car. I also have a model y and love it. I just wanted to put this message out in the open for people who have possibly went through the same or it might happen to in the future.
Finally an ev fan who don't lie about problems that might (not necessary with everyone) will happen and buyers should know...
Who exactly is lying? Maybe most people just do not experience battery failure? I have not seen Tesla Bjorn lie for example, he has shown some degraded battery cars. I have also seen a guy ripping to shreds Opel Astra because the engine failed and other stuff and xalling them crap while mine is 12 years old and running like champ. One guy gates Toyota because he got a lemon… Lemons do exist, maybe there are more of those with EVs now but probably people whose batteries fail with want to ralk about that more often than those whose batteries do not fail
@@lkrnpk Too bad most blind ev fans even if the car has a problem try to make excuses that it's just a rare occurence when it's not. I have basically two opels one is an old now 28 year old astra F with 300+ thousand kilomters no issues except rust because it is what it is and other one a late 2003 opc, bertone version it sucks balls i owned for 1,5 half years from that half was spent on electric and computer problems and still doesn't run not even start at least i don't lie about it, no defending nothing. But if we see the biger pictures opel astras F and G models 10+ million were made worldwide 95+% worknig and stood the tes tof time. The smae can't be said about electric cars.
Yeah but the technology is in its infancy and many people said when Model S came out that the cars and batteries would be dead in 6-8 years but now they are driving at 12-13 years of age, at least some of them :D. They are so new, the long range generation, that it is hard to know how it will be and new chemistries and batteries come out all the time, it could happen like that, that tomorrow there really is a battery that will live for more than 20 years with maybe some cell replacement, if there is not already@@maszkalman3676
@@lkrnpk I've seen videos with EV owners coming with genuine problems with their Tesla just to be attacked by Tesla/Musk worshipers. Then they have to defend themselves and prove their problems are real. It's crazy how some people buy into an idea and worship it beyond reason.
It's true that such things happen too, it cannot be denied, there are also some who have invested in Tesla stock and for whom therefore Tesla is infallible and they even do not like the idea of other car makers making good EVs@@faster6329
Perfect example why I still love my old ICE 5.3 Chevy.
MX-5 NC + PRHT, Thank Christ! : )
Don’t get a new 5.3. My 22 suburban eats oil and that AFM fouls out plugs. Stupid emissions crap that we don’t even need because c02 doesn’t affect the climate.
Very detail video. Thanks so much. I have 2021 MYLR with 22K miles. It is so far so good. I watched a few video about batteries nightmare. One guy replaced a the battery after the warranty for $9K and got refurbished one. This is one of major reason so many people put on hold buying EV. If I knew this, I would hold buying Tesla. I told my daughter to hold buying Tesla and she agreed after watching this video. Thanks again for the detail video. I may return to ICE car.😂
A well made car can last 20 years with proper maintenance. I have Toyota and GM SUVs and both are reliable (to date). The GM product, a Sat Vue has 246k miles on it. I add a little oil between changes... AC had indications of a leak about 200k miles... so we dont use it. Right side of dashboard back light bulb needs replacing... odometer back light needs replacing... otherwise, works fine with 248K miles on it. Maintenance consists of 5k miles oil changes, 100k miles cooland changes, and trans fluid changes. Otherwise, just fine. Plastic body, so no rust.
The Highlander is under extended warranty with regular dealer maintenance... no issues what so ever.
This is what I require from an EV, and they appear not to be there yet. I think Neo has the right idea re the batteries, but I am not sure how this will work out in practice, as I do not know the guaranteed specs on the replacement rented batteries or if they are verified or checked regularly by Neo.
My 2010 prius has same issue. Only getting 40 mpg because of battery becoming weaker. Toyota made it to last very long, but it does not last forever like you’d hope. I think this is why Toyota does not want to do EV’s - because they think batteries are expensive, and they don’t want to pay for warranty issue for taxi cabs where the car is severely ran, and it’s a difficult issue ! We need a great big battery breakthrough, so that batteries become dirt cheap, and last LONG. That’s what we need. I like Tesla for taking on this challenge.
Only 40. LOL.. I get 13-15 mpg.
We have a 2010 Highlander with 150,000 miles and the battery shows just about a full charge.
Cheap to replace or repair - at least they are in the UK.
It's not that terribly difficult to replace the battery in a prius. Plus you can replace it with a pack that's both smaller and more energy dense now.
But that last part is wishful. You either get more range or cheaper, you don't get both. Even solid state either means EVs with more range but much more expensive or same range but similar priced. The only way to get both is to just have a more efficient vehicle. But considering everyone wants an SUV or crossover today, that seems unlikely. Especially today where people even think sedans, which are still huge, are tiny death traps.
My 20 year old '04 Prius is still running with its original battery.
as a Nio owner with a rented & swappable battery (it swaps in ~4 minutes at a battery-swap station, costing just the same as a full fast-charging session), this Model Y scenario shows how swappable batteries make sense in the long-run.
As a gas powered car owner, seeing the nonsense you need to do and how bad teslas are, it just shows that gas powered cars are better and better for the environment.
People who own EV's are suckers who have little grip on actual science or common sense as any one who can believe that a gas that plants need to grow, a gas nicknamed the gas of life, the gas that is so low in environmental atmospheric concentration, a gas that makes up only 0.04 percent will cause us all to die if it bumps up to 0.04 percent while using fossil fuels that they have found on a moon of Saturn that is actually renewable.
Enjoy. Everyone loves seeing my car when I take it out. I get filmed, pictures taken, people want to sit in it. I get stopped in traffic and people talk to me while we wait at a light. And may gas powered car is about as fast as a Tesla too.
It doesn't matter because all of these batteries have potential to spontaniously combust. That is a WHOLE other set of problems and issues with loads; insurance; safety; more government regulation; weight restrictions on roadways; recertifications of building codes; etc.. The government pushing these 'lawn ornaments' tells me that these 'tree huggers' are not in REALITY!
They wanted to go fullEV by 2030 I say fuc|< that. I would never go EV. EV Battery just suck period. Look at power tool batteries for example. I remember they tried to push a battery lawnmower and that failed immediately and now they’re trying to ban all gas power equipment tools. Give me a break.
@@darksideblues135 oh you are the guy who calls others suck at science? And why do scientists worry about carbon concentration in the athmosphere? Do they all suck at science or are they bought?
Well, yes you are a guy from the internet who claims knowing better than anyone else with no ecvidence. Make sense to just trust your BS.
Swap able batteries is the best solution for EV’s.
I'm grateful to be a late-adopter.
Saving the planet one, two, three batteries at a time...
So, you got a refurb pack. Not a bad deal, but I’d want a brand new battery. Glad you’re talking about battery degradation because it can and will happen to every BEV. No one is immune to it. 😊
I'd expect a brand new battery under warranty as well. When the traction battery on my Prius went out around year 9, it was out of warranty in my area ( 10 years in california, 8 elsewhere ), but I called Toyota corporate on the advice of the Prius forums, and they offered to give me a brand new battery pack for half price under a "good faith warranty". I went with that rather than an after market rebuild. At year 16 it is apparently still running well though I sold it to a co-worker last year for his 16 year old son to drive.
So, let’s say my RAV4 engine failed internally while under warranty. On what planet would I be OK with Toyota finding a used engine with “about” the same usage and me, the customer, allowing them to install it in my vehicle that I had purchased new? And in the severely unlikely event that I did allow such nonsense, I would insist that the warranty coverage start over to cover the replaced part, above and beyond the original time and mileage period. Your presence on RUclips telling the world of your experience is your only shot at getting fair and equitable treatment from the manufacturer. God have mercy on the rest.
Remanufactured engines are used all the time. @@montyboy5436
I would think that if you paid for a battery pack out of pocket they would give you a brand new battery. A replacement warrantee battery doesn't have to be brand new cells since they are footing the bill, they just need to get your car running in the same condition as the pack should be based on degradation estimates.
We should all know what “warranty” can mean on batteries. People need to “educate” themselves about batteries before jumping ship into an EV. I know batteries and will never purchase an EV. Let’s invest in hydrogen power.
It is not true. I saw another video, someone paid $9K to replace model 3 battery and he gets a refurbished one.
But with an ICE car, when you get any part replaced under warranty it is a brand new part. Also in an accident they only replace parts with new not used.
I just had my engine replaced under warranty (class action law suit) and it is a remanufactured engine. Sounds similar to what telsa is doing with their battery warranty.
it's fairly common practice for autoshops and manufacturers to use warrantied remanufactured/rebuilt parts.
@@bigfootandbananaman4746if I’m understanding my remanufactured engine correctly it is just cobbled together with various aged/worn parts it is not 100% new. I really don’t know how old the small block is versus the cams but I hope they don’t have 110K hard miles on them for instance.
If I get various aged/worn batteries in a replacement pack it would seem like the same idea. They still build the pack to spec and must meet release requirements I assume just like my engine
@@krisevonRemanufactured engines don’t really “wear” all the parts like the packs do. The majority of the wear parts will be new and I’d expect a reman ICE engine to last every bit as long as a new engine. Things like rings, bearings, and seals will not be reused. Generally that’s the stuff that wears out with age.
Common even in the mobile phone industry. Warranty replacements are often refurbished devices. As long as refurbished/remanufactured objects are held to a good enough standard, this is better for environmental and economic reasons.
That said, if the refurbished/remanufactured versions aren’t as good as new or within 99%, something needs to be done imo.
@@bigfootandbananaman4746 Not true. A remanned engine does indeed include many old/used parts in them, and you're now relying on a technician at the local service center to rebuild the engine, vs having the manufacture rebuild it. And where is your proof that a remanned battery won't last as long as a new battery? It might not have the capacity of a new battery, but the life span can very easily be just as long as a new battery.
Glad I this video popped up in my feed. Although I’ve been watching more videos on EV’s this one was incredibly informative.
And you’re correct charging customers for a new pack when it’s just a remanufactured one is a rip off and they should be sued.
Our pack did the same thing at 29,000 miles. ‘21 Model Y long range. It was replace with a brand new back after they couldn’t get a refurbished one. 330 miles on charge after we got the new pack. Car is now at 69,000 miles with that pack and 309 miles fully charged. We also have a friend that bought a ‘21 Model 3 long range and his pack went out at 54,000 miles. It was replaced with a refurbished pack this summer. Both cars had the BMSA066 warning. I’m starting to think this was an issue with ‘21 3/Y battery packs. Our why was purchased May if ‘21. Still the best car I’ve owned.
Don't park it too close to anything.🌋
@@leoncardinal2035 Nonsense.
I wonder if you would have better luck by trading this car in for an LFP Model Y. The car won't be as fast but the battery might be more durable for your use case.
Trade it for an ICE car.
They don't sell an LFP Model Y in the USA. The cheaper RWD one is supposedly still NMC 4680s.
@@seltzered No, they stopped making 4680 Model Y’s in October & started selling the CATL RWD model. That’s why the RWD Model is losing 50% of its tax credit next year. Not sure if the change was to make room for CyberTruck production in Austin or b/c the 4680’s were disappointing.
@@lh2338 a lot of initial news headlines and people (including myself) were hoping the Model Y rwd made at Giga Texas was using an LFP battery. They are not according to actual deliveries over the past month.
Another alternative though might be the newer Ford Mach-E where some trim levels have LFP (and will list it on the Munroney sticker).
As mentioned above they stopped making the RWD trim in Austin. They’re importing the CATL RWD ones now. Just do a quick Google search & you’ll find the story posted in October at multiple outlets
If two battery packs go bad in the same car, it is unlikely to be a coincidence or defective batteries. Something else in the car may be causing the battery packs to fail. Find out what that something is, and your bad luck should turn into good luck.
Tesla doesn’t replace the defective batteries with a new battery pack. They apparently use “refurbished” batteries. It is very possible that their refurbished process is not that thorough or maybe the refurbished pack is from older batteries.
@@billmcfattison3417 Exactly. Dealing with a used battery most likely means more old cells failed since there are over 4000 of them in a Model Y and the BMS is shutting some cell modules down. That's the one flawed part of the EV business model that keeps me away, battery degradation leading to a massive repair expense.
"Something else in the car..." That would be the driver. Every one of these bad battery complaint videos is a ride share driver charging to 100% daily and discharging to a low percentage. You can't charge NMC batteries to 100% every day and expect them to last.
@billmcfattison3417 I agree. Being an avid tesla fan, I would look on their site for used vehicles. Practically overnight I noticed no more 13'-16' year teslas. I think they take the batteries from them.
Not identical, but I’ve had 3 new iPhones. Because they replace with refurbished. I’ve never had any issues with iPhones until they were refurbished.
Hmm, my suggestion would be for a "rolling" warranty to come into effect when a battery pack is replaced.
That way, for the $13,000 the owner would get 8 years of coverage, starting at the replacement date rather than the original purchase date of the car.
Alternatively, split the difference. Pay $6,500 and get 4 years/25,000 miles added to whatever remaing time & miles are left on the original battery warranty.
Yea the remanufactured warranty sucks.
Why would they do that? Since they install a used pack, it probably won't survive another 8 years.
It's still terrible, I bought my 1983 datsun for only 600$ and it made it to 290,000 miles on its original components and got 50 mpg meaning 500 miles on its 10 gallon tank.
I just don't think the majority of people could afford an ev, just the people who can afford to buy new cars every 8 years anyways.
I had to replace the battery in my car a few times. It cost only about a hundred dollars and I was able to do it myself in a few minutes.
But that's the perks of owning a superior product. A gas powered car.
👍
If you find a clean burning fuel to run it on all power to ya!
Traditional, Taiwanese say hello by asking "are you hungry? have you eaten yet?", it's just the way of showing care and affinity.
When Tesla owners in Taiwan meet, they greet each others by asking "how many times have you replace the batteries?".....to show care and affinity.
Really good personal experience video. Videos like yours are important for people to understand the whole EV experience.
Yeah most people are waking up to this whole ev scam and realising it’s bullsht ! EVs will never be a viable replacement for ICE vehicles until the technology is much better which is decades away. What will you ev evangelists do when insurance companies refuse to insure EVs because they are so dangerous with battery fires ? What will you do when the rare earth minerals needed to manufacture EVs are exhausted and become too expensive to mine ? These EVs are so far from being green and environmentally friendly it’s a joke,it’s not going to work until the technology is far better than it currently is. Fossil fueled vehicles are going to be around for many decades,anyone that thinks otherwise is delusional.
The experience should be a hard lesson of I told you so. Don't waste your money on an EV.
@@extremedrivr some people are just clueless about common sense and logic.
@@Healthliving1967 Yes they are.
They should have a pro-rated warranty based on distance and years.
This exactly!
They do 10 years or 120000miles
Out of warranty pack only has 4 year or 40k mile warranty which is a joke for 15k plus cost
Just another way we get bent over by a company
@@DeyofamilyThat's a better warranty than you're going to get from any legacy manufacturer on the gas engine they're going to replace for you.
I'm from Australia so enjoy a bit of overseas content. I'm also an electrical engineer so understand the technical side of EV's. This is an interesting story in that the maturity of ICE's is in it "componentisation". For example when an ICE drive train (fuel driven motor) fails you can replace that major component with a long block, a short block or just a new head as required. You don't technically ever replace a full motor in an ICE given the spares market is so comprehensive and not costly. BEV's are heading in that direction but as you've experienced with a major component, the replacement battery market is still very much finding it's way. Russian roulette was the term used. As the EV variants from PHEVs to BEVs have more time in service, we'll just have to wait and see what the spares market ends up looking like.
Batteries need to be covered under warranty for 5 years minimum, maybe more. Europe will enforce this and ensure manufacturers have to sell cars with batteries that don't need to be replaced every 100 000 miles. The cost of replacing a battery is just way too high right now, and tesla is reaping huge profits from failing batteries. They said a battery that has a common failure point needs to be replaced at a cost of $16 000, it cost under $20 in party and a hours labour to fix it.
But the EV fans say its simpler which i always find funny especially since they have no clue just how complex it gets or the fact like Tesla the electric engines are specs are like sports cars.
@@andrewbrown6578I don’t know how manufacturers will actually be able to give 5 year warranty (and what’s the mileage limit over those 5 years)? 😉
Governments have been seriously pushing EVs, and they certainly forced car manufacturers to go faster than they could (most of them, not necessarily Tesla).
Technology isn’t being used because it has been improved and tested over decades, but because laws are forcing manufacturers to build them.
We’ll always have a problem when laws are much quicker than science, and in Europe, you may remember how much governments pushed diesel sales, because they had less CO2 emissions over petrol cars. 😉
Yes, they did, but they also had the poisonous particles emissions problem, and it was nothing new back then.
That knowledge already existed for decades, but that didn’t stoped so many European governments from looking at the CO2 emissions only.
There’s a limit on what governments can push automakers, and that includes warranty periods on EV batteries.
If manufacturers are forced to give unrealistic warranty periods, either the average price of EV’s will have to increase in order to create a financial “buffer” for the warranty, or it could become the start of the end for that manufacturer. 😉
European manufacturers are already having several problems due (also) to what they were _forced_ to do, rushing the technological progress to their customers, even if some of it is only half baked.
I’m not a Tesla fan, but I do believe that credit must be given to what they did with electric cars.
They weren’t pushed to build them, they pushed themselves and still have an edge on EV technology.
And even with that edge, we’re seeing situations like the one reported in this video!
Does anyone believe that any European manufacturer is going to solve these battery problems?
I don’t, and let me be clear that most of the dozen plus cars that I’ve owned are from European brands.
As for Tesla and EVs in general, time will tell how it worked out. 😉
It’s all great when the car is brand new and shining on the showroom (it has always been).
The _big_ question is when situations like these start to become common (and they will, there’s no doubt about it).
Will you really want to put your hard earned money on any EV that’s out of warranty?
I sure don’t, and we’re already seeing an huge depreciation of prices of out (or near) of warranty EVs.
If the used market for them doesn’t grow, they will actually have an even greater depreciation. 😉
And depreciation is one of the big costs of owning _any_ vehicle.
The only way they can prevail in the long term is for them to be increasingly cheaper, in such a way that they can be seen as mobile phones, computers, TV’s (etc):
- Products with a predicted life, which you throw away or recycle after a certain amount of years.
We must keep an open mind to the fact that technology is always improving, and batteries are no exception.
But we’re still waiting for any significant evolution on EV batteries that would allow to avoid this huge and expensive ownership cost/risk.
Until then, every new EV on the market today is a guaranteed uncertainty over in a relatively short period of years.
As a qualified electronics engineer there are simple ways batteries could be replaced or repaired. Model S packs have had just one cell fail reducing a car to 40 mile range. The one cell was cut out allowing the pack to reach 100% again as the one cell is only 3.6 Volts. If the cell banks could be replaced easier that would solve lots of issues. The major issue with the battery cell bank is they are usually under the car in a protective frame to protect the batteries from collisions. Porsche and VW group use pouch cell packs that can not be repaired as it is hard to remove a separate pouch cell (they are in cell banks). Tesla use individual cells that can be cut out but are now building the car around the battery so the interior of the car needs to be removed. Renault and Nissan had the best idea where you leased the battery so f it failed it was replaced. No one does this now, I wonder why ? Porsche also altered the software of the battery management as the 200 kw charging causes damage a lot quicker. Any DC rapid charging will reduce the life of the battery and all battery packs degrade by about 5% after 2 years even if AC charged. This is due to the battery settling and the chemical reactions as the battery is used.
yes and your not the only E.E here, the current design of these EVs are a joke the only thing they will do is increase our dependence on electricity and increase the price in Australia, As for the cell repair sure in principle but in practice with out a TESLA badge or working at TESLA as s so called TECH it would void the warranties now i can understand that to a point, but it defeats the whole point on the environment factor same with the use of a 500HP engine or a EV that pretends to be a normal car.
Thus in the current Design and Topology we can't take them seriously also as an E.E guy you should know the way most cells fail is normally short circuit as well as EOL is short circuit aka dendrite happiness funtime. @@RB-lt8kt
Gas cars have problems too, but a lot of times people don’t calculate the cost over time unless it’s major engine/transmission failure where they had to fork out $2000+. My dad’s Toyota Sienna for example had to go into service multiple times for failed idle control valve, coil packs, thermostats, radiator, brakes, timing belts, water pumps, etc. Each time costing around $700-$1200 since they add in diagnostic fees. But he doesn’t seem to remember those things since the cost is spread over a span of 10 years. He seems to still think it’s cheaper to operate a gas car.
The only sane comment here. Thanks
maybe ur daddio just having bad luck? My 17 toyota rav 4 and 15 lexus gx 460 both 120k+ miles, no problem and its almost 10 years old, only thing i did is oil change. Can a testla do that? Like whos gonna buy ur car if u have a bad battery
Thanks for the video. I'm about to buy my first Tesla and we have a service center near by. I was an automobile mechanic in a prior career and worked for repair shops and dealers. I have been reaching out to people who I know that own Tesla's and to local mobile Tesla service techs that I know, just to get what they have to say about the experience of owning and maintaining a Tesla. I mentioned being a mechanic in the ICE world only because in that world we connected with other mechanics and sources of information ALL the time to seek out what was normal and not normal. Going lone ranger and trying to figure this stuff out yourself is really tough.
So who is telling the truth?
It looks like you charging often to 100% if you have all these stats. In your situation id consider trading the car to one that has LFP battery pack. Long range battery doesnt "like" to be above 90% or below 10% too often.
Agreed. 80% is recommended and it says on the screen.
So its only long range rarely or it will break in short order? Great.
@siraff4461 The possibility of increased degradation is not from charging to 90 or 100%, it's the car sitting at those levels all the time. If you charge to 100% and start driving then no problem. But if you charge 100% each day, drive 20 or 30 miles down to 91 or so, then charge up again to 100 each day it's sitting around idle at 90+ a large percentage of the time. So most charge to 80 on a daily basis and then to a 100 before they set out on longer journey. If you're driving 250+ miles each day then sure, charge to 100 each day and that's no problem.
@@siraff4461 Chill out. How often does one need more than 80% range?? 99.9999% of people use their cars for daily commutes of typically less than 30 miles and errands typically of only a few miles. So unless you're going on a trip, there's rarely a need to charge above 80% (and even then with all the chargers, I'd argue you don't even need to charge it above 80% for a trip).
@@kenbob1071 You just made a great argument for plug-in hybrids.
The way the cells are glued into the modules I highly doubt they are pulling out and replacing individual cells. They may put in used modules though even that seems as if it would cause balancing issues.
our associate dentist commutes from LA to Vegas once a week. He drove his new Model 3 for that trip exactly ONE time,..then switched back to his beater Elantra. Funny how he crowed about his zero to sixty in less that 5 seconds, then immediatly switched back to the ICE beater due to the charging time wasted of his new, expensive EV. I guess charging in Barstow in 115 degrees isn't too much fun, especially when you're tired and can't wait to get to your hotel. All the happy talk about "you need to stretch your legs, anyway" was just that: happy talk.
BMW i3, 2014, range was down bellow 70%, after a lot of arguing my BMW dealer replace the pack. I asked, if they replace the damaged cells and they said NO, BMW replace all of them, so basically I got a new battery, which is working perfect after 2 years.
Aren't you supposed to charge to only 80%? I understand if you charge to 100% every day it will reduce pack life?
For longevity, you are suppose to charge up to 80% and charge at 20%; otherwise you will kill your battery fast. Also supercharging is super bad, too.
It's the DC fast charging, if he's a Taxi driver, then he's likely going to 100% (which at the top of the pack is just a trickle charge anyway) and then he's immediately using up the power so (same as our phones) it's not like the battery is just SITTING around at full SOC, and keep in mind due to the internal safety buffer it's technically not really at 100%, no, it's only shown that way to the driver.
That wouldn’t cause this problem, if that were true then the whole pack would have degraded more evenly. It’s pretty obvious a cell or two failed (more likely), or he got a coolant leak into the battery (less likely). That would have happened anyway, supercharging or no.
@@HumbleBearcat some new Tesla Y have LFP batteries, thry have been used in China teslas since 2021, and you won’t need to worry about any 10%-80% rule as they do not degrade the same.
Yes and no. Charging from 0-100 makes it so your battery meets its rated cycle life. Avoiding the bottom and top 10-20% will increase it beyond its rated cycle life.
Or in other words, dont worry about it.
I was so excited to get myself a tesla but I’ve been educating myself before making a decision and honestly this is a big big deal breaker for me.
After just 46,000 miles and 4 1/2 years of ownership, last week Tesla service advised me against driving my car as the HV battery was about to fail. It is now at the service centre awaiting a replacement HV battery. Tesla provided a Loaner car (awful experience due to arguments/charges over existing damage). But my main concern after hearing your experience is the potential poor standard of the replacement refurb battery, the lack of extended warrantee (still be based on my car's age and total mileage) and the potential cost of a future out of warrantee replacement if it fails again. Tesla say that would cost just under GBP £20,000 ($25,000). More than the value of the car which, by the way, is dropping like a stone!
I am now questioning the value of EVs. The batteries are clearly unreliable and expensive to replace. When the HV battery fails, the warrantee does NOT cover a NEW replacement battery and the chance of receiving an unreliable replacement battery is increased due to being refurbished from a previously failed battery. The seemingly generous 120k mile warrantee isn't helpful.
Now that my head is full of all these concerns, I will not buy another Tesla.Currently, I am concerned my car will become a worthless risk as soon as the warrantee period is up in 2027, just 3 1/2 years from now or less if I increase my annual mileage.
I have been very careful with my charging habits since owning my car from new and diligently followed the 80/20 rule charging mostly at home. I hardly use superchargers.
I bought a new Model Y standard range AWD with the 4680 pack in April 23. I drove it regularly and just charged in level 1 or 2 most of the time. With in a month I received the same error code and had to have my pack replaced with less then 3,000 miles on it. After it was replaced about a month later I received the same code and had to have the second battery replaced again. After that I requested that Tesla buy back my car which they did because I felt there was an issue with the software or the car. I decided to downsize after that bought a Bolt EUV which is okay because I’m worried about the 4680 reliability but will probably go back to them at some point once I feel their battery are more reliable. I miss my amenities of the Tesla for sure and the Bolt is okay… but I’ll just wait to get the Model 3 Highlander once it comes to the US.
You know you’re in good hands when the company creates a special team to divert and cancel appointments about shorter than expected range.
Because it's EPA range, not "expected" range.
Why would they waste time explaining that to the average dummy?
@@Tschacki_Quacki Because they claimed that EPA range when they sold the car. Simple. It’s common knowledge now that Tesla games the EPA test to achieve higher ranges than they actually can, but that doesn’t change the fact that the EPA mileage is the expected mileage.
@@Tschacki_Quacki Tesla should stop selling their cars to the "average dummy" then. Tesla should only sell to cult members such as yourself. Only "smart" guys like yourself deserve to own that car. Am I right?
I have played around with modules that form a full batter pack . I think 4 modules make up a pack but maybe more for bigger packs. The module cells are glued together and would be very hard to repair at the cell level. My guess is that they are matching modules to make a pack.
I would sell the car and buy a new car. A bad pack out of warranty could cost you a large amount of money.
problem is EV's are worthless second hand especially high mileage, lucky to get back 25% of what he paid for it
@@michaeledwards8079 under 20k$ seems to be the price of an out of warranty tesla.
The battery replacement cost for these BEV's are higher than the residual value left in the vehicle. Everyone talks about cost savings running a BEV, but this cost, which will certainly one day have to be dealt with, makes BEV's a COST INCREASE over ICE cars. Then there are the increased insurance, repairs, tyres. Still early days for BEV.
It's becoming increasingly obvious that EV are still at an experimental stage and until the multiple issues have been properly addressed I'm sticking with my super reliable Golf R
Great video Tollak! Here is to hoping that your third pack stays sound. Since you were showing around 315 when you got the new pack maybe it was a fresh one that was referenced as remanufactured by Tesla. I have high hopes that the newer batteries are more resilient than the older ones. Here is to hoping for 200k on the latest pack!!
Best chance of getting 120K miles from a new pack is to only use slow charge.
Yeah doesn't sound like a great experience.
I wonder if some battery packs and BMS systems have been slightly damaged depending on where and how they've been charged. Like if a specific charging station has unusual large spikes in power possibly causing changes in pulse width modulation that the BMS does not handle well. It might be causing extra degradation each time you charge if some cells are falling out of balance or being overcharged. The charging networks are all owned by different companies and who knows if there are design issues at the charging level or even with the power grid at your home. AC power from the grid can be clean or dirty, higher and lower voltage depending on the area and it's being converted to generate the DC EV charging. I know at my work we had a phase issue with the power in the building and while that is AC power it still took out a couple of computer monitors and a couple power supply's in some servers and workstations. We have a lot of the same model of professional equipment and most of them survived but some did not. Point being the ones that still work likely took some electronic damage or degradation.
Most battery disassembly available online show that most BMS failing do so due to humidity in the pack.
Having the BMS in the battery itself is really a bad design choice from Tesla.
Driving an ICE vehicle down to nearly empty is no big deal, but do the same thing in an EV on a regular basis, and you will be replacing packs on a regular. My guess is the rigors of rideshare and using the full range day after day is what's killing it.
Not true. I frequently use the full range of my EV in one day and have never had any issues. Appears to be a Tesla issue in this instance.
Nope. I had an i-MiEV and I daily charged it to 100% and drained to 0-5 miles remaining. My car has one of the best batteries (SoH value) in the community.
You can't drive an EV empty. It shuts off before you could reach any dangerous emptyness.
Especially Teslas, that have a hidden reserve of 4.2% after 0% and another dedicated buffer beyond that.
There is also almost no reason to drive an EV nearly empty on a regular basis in the first place, since you don't need dedicated gas station stops. You usually gain nothing from driving it empty before you charge. You can plug it in at any time.
I never came to a convenient charging spot and thought to myself: "But I'm not empty yet."
That's simply not how EV ownership works (for most people).
@user-bb7up7xv8m Well, the fact of the matter is that ALL of the cells that are used in todays EV's experience rapid degradation once the charge dips below around 30%. Some cells are higher quality, and some have better bms, but it's a losing battle. I think people should be given a basic chemistry lesson prior to purchasing an EV. And to your point about there being no reason to drive until the battery is flat- you are correct. Unless said owner uses the vehicle's limited range as a way to produce income. I believe that is the case here.
@@jbrc1322
Can you point to any data that shows that today's EV batteries (which aren't the same at all) experience "rapid degradation" below 30%?
If it is such basic chemistry knowledge, I'm sure you can quote some sources.
Dude, you're charging your car to a 100% every day. It tells you not to do that, so you're not following the recommendation. I charge between 20-80% on my Tesla. I also work for a electric aircraft company so I know a lot about the batteries. Don't charge to 100% all the time. It's not good for the pack because batteries charge at a different rate from one another, and when you go to 100%, you overcharge some of the cells. Hope this helps everyone. I have a 2021 model y with 44,000 miles and have lost 5 miles so far.
Thank you so much for commenting, helps balance out the rest of I formation on the internet about some people having great model Y and others having nightmares with them. and it seems that at the end of the day, it is until the cars are used in real life that unknown and untested issues show up.
BTW. If you get your bumper cover replaced there is no rule or practice that says you get a new bumper cover. Body repair often involves used or remanufactured parts that have come from a salvage yard. It is only in the consumers mind that body panels are all new when they get their car repaired. What Tesla are doing with battery packs is standard practice in the automotive world.
The reason why NIO is definitely the way forward with swappable batteries 😂
If that were true, Tezz would already be doing it. They lead, others follow.
@@yourlogicalnightmare1014 Tesla did almost do it. They just never followed through for unknown reasons. Elon just randomly trashed the idea years later.
And Tesla isn't the only ones who can come up with unique concepts. They were just first to the game. Much like Apple isn't always the first to new tech on phones.
Just FYI: You do NOT necessarily get a "new" bumper (or other parts) in the event of a collision requiring replacement unless your car is brand new. I've been in the collision-repair industry for 5 decades (that's 50 years for the common-core grads) and most insurance companies today will specify either "re-manufactured" (repaired old bumpers), "aftermarket" (Chinese knockoffs that may not fit right), or LKQ (like kind/quality...which is from a junkyard).
Anything to avoid replacing that cheap plastic part eh 😂
In my country the customer decides what parts are used for repairs.
@@briankearn6991 What country izzat?
Can you put 5 decades on a line with a bunch of hash marks and dash lines, so my sons can figure it out how old you are from themselves?
A side question for you, am I the only one having terrible luck with LKQ refinished wheels? I ended up having to order 12 and returning 8 of them for major finished defects just to get a good set.
I’m confused here. He stated specifically that when you’re IN warranty they replace your bad pack with a refurbished pack. By him making that specific note, it seems he’s inferring that if you are out of warranty that you would get a new pack as a replacement pack. Then later when he’s specifically talking about being out of warranty he states that you’re paying $13,000 for a refurbished pack. So it seems that he’s saying regardless of whether you’re in or out of warranty, if you need a replacement pack it is always going to be a refurbished pack that Tesla give you, NEVER a completely new pack. Is that correct?
I would like to know about this as well. Also if you are out of warranty and are paying for the replacement pack, can you pick what battery pack it's replaced with. For instance I would probably want an LFP battery pack rather that an pack with NCA/NCM type chemistries... Seems like an LFP pack would also be better suited for 'ride share' as well.
My understanding is a refurbished pack is around 10k and a new one is around $20k.. but that’s IF Tesla will sell you some, and that’s what I’m wondering.
Thinking the 13k was for completely new pack installed. Partially used cells for warranty only ?? Would hope so.
@@williamboyle8918 , Nope, he was complaining the the cost was $13,000 for a refurbished pack. Go back and listen again.
@@anthonyscott5134 what's a freaking new one cost ? Lol
A 2170 cell on whole sale is about 1.50 per cell, multiply that to 4400 which is the amount of cells in model y with 21700 cell pack..
That’s about 6600 bucks just for the cells plus the bms and packaging cost..
Ev’s are for upper class and
defiantly not for taxi business.
With non-structural battery packs, you have the option to cut off failed/shorted cells, and operate with reduced capacity. Only time will tell, if the structural pack are worth the hype!. Packs that use panasonics batteries(not the 4680 structural packs) are easily repairable.
I would take the hit on the trade-in NOW vs keeping it and taking the hit on a used pack and STILL HAVE NO WARRANTY. Just saying…
Yuppers!
Same. His Model Y could be a massive money pit after warranty. Terrible for the suckers that buy it used. I'd be staying away from high mileage EVs.
That’s what they want you to do
I suspect the 4680 battery packs should have less of these "bad" cell issues because of the tabless design. Those tabs on typical battery cells are the weakest link. With all the high energy demands put through those tabs, if one wasn't properly welded to the collector or the cathode and anode, heat will degrade the connection an eventually lead to a failure.
Theres still a connector...
@@wizzyno1566 yes, but the contact area is spread more. so theres less chance of something going wrong during assembly or during operation.
It appears to me as I compare development of technology in user activity; that todays ev development is in a similar state as aviation was in the 1920's
The reason that Tesla remanufactured batteries cost $13k-$20k is because that's what batteries cost. A new one would cost significantly more so it isn't as if Tesla is doing something wrong by charging that much money, especially with the liability and warrantying of rebuilding something like a high voltage battery pack. Every other manufacturer is having trouble with battery replacement costs because they do not have a system in place to supply remanufactured units. The Ford Lightning battery is around $36k, Mustang Mach E at $24k plus core, labor, and shipping, Ioniq 5 at around $50k, Hummer EV is $36k plus labor (pretty cheap considering the capacity). It is also my understanding that Tesla applies a 4yr/ 50k mile warranty to reman. batteries. I would not recommend anyone own an EV out of warranty, failures are low but the manufacturer doesn't trust it and if it fails you're pretty much screwed.
The cost of replacement is exactly why I won't be buying one.
Great information and insights, thanks! Having some experience with turbine aircraft, where engines can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars there are companies who basically lease engines on a per-hour and calendar-year basis, and it often makes sense for revenue operator as major out of pocket costs are avoided, and fixes and variable costs are known.
For vehicles out of warranty perhaps a third party could offer remanufactured packs on a "Power-By-The-Mile' basis. Also, could a salvaged pack be an option if your current pack fails out of warranty?
Adding another cost to EV ownership
@@chrissmith2114 The way I see it In aviation and potentially with Batteries that can cost more than the vehicle Chris, it's a way mitigate a potentially catastrophic unplanned expense and minimal down time in the event of a failure, that could render an owner making payments on and asset that if unusable severely devalued.
Aviation MSP/Power by the Hour' programs are often less expensive than engine ownership as the provider has large pool of resources and can re-manufacture engines for less than a factory reman or new. And if the airframe were to become airworthy the operator can simply send the engines back and scrap the airframe.
With Private Jets, an operator can buy an aircraft less engines for about 1/3 or less the cost of an aircraft with engines included. And can run with top quality engines for an hourly charge, and offset additional costs with the lower capitol cost.
If Tesla owner start experiencing battery problems as you have encountered, perhaps battery insurance might be worthwhile.
@@jackoneil3933 I have never had or needed engine or fuel tank insurance on any ICE car, so battery insurance will be just another cost of EV ownership
@@chrissmith2114 Indeed. But when you buy a new car you are paying for a warranty (Insurance) for everything on that vehicle.
If one needs or chooses to buy a vehicle that has $18,000 component with a finite and risk of unpredictable failure, leasing such a component can be a cost-effective option if your have high utilization and re saving a significant amount on operation costs such as fuel, on that vehicle vs. an alternative ICE vehicle.
Low-use private owners of Private Jets tend to own their engines that could be $450,000 each and lease their engines if they are high-use commercial operators.
I was trying to draw a parallel to high-use commercial Tesla operators, as as suggestion for a service. For example, If a company provides you a battery on a five year 200,000 mile basis, basis for $20,000 over that term that's $0.10/per mile and $4,000 per year or $333.33 per month, that you can write-off as a direct operating lease cost, and if the battery ever fails you get a fast replacement for not much more than taking out a loan on a replacement battery that might fail at any time.
A comparable ICE Vehicle is going to be about $0.15 to $0.24/per mile for fuel vs. $0.10 per mile for battery reserve and $.05 to $0.18 per mile for home vs. Supercharging, so even if you got 5 years out of your owned Tesla battery the leased battery would only add about 20 to 30% to your battery cost. If your owned battery only lasts 60,000 miles you the leased battery cost is about 1/3.
It may be a a bit of a foreign concept to grasp, but I've been running it for years on aircraft, and leasing engines is often the cheaper, safer way to operate.
@@chrissmith2114 exactly, an expense with EV's that heretofore consumers have been "suckered" (and "suckered themselves" not to put too fine a point on it) into believing doesn't exist...
as anybody familiar with Fleet Maintenance will tell you (ref: Jack-O) EVERY vehicle made by Man has a "running cost" to one degree or another. yeah Hertz and now Sixt are seeing more clearly, but the reality is they both should've known better, and pros don't let laymen tell them how to run their business (since these laymen could be Frauds)...
ultimately then costs can't be HIDDEN nor can they be ESCAPED, no, we just like playing "shell games" with costs to see if we can make someone else bear the burden.
To be fair, ICE manufacturer's frequently use remanufactured components whenever possible. Like if an engine or transmission fails and they have a remanufactured part option, that is what they use. They are supposed to meet certain specifications so it should be a good reliable part. As you say, it would be useful to know if this is a common failure or not.
I don't own an EV but wouldn't mind having one as a second car for daily short trips within its range. I just can't justify it until the prices come down. I am curious about reliability issues, I know everyone thought that because of far less moving parts EV's would be significantly more reliable. As an engineer that works with and repairs MRI systems (also practically no moving parts) I was/am very skeptical of that assertion.
That is another big issue with EV's, there are almost no 3rd party options for parts and repairs. I can't help but think that a high reliability fuel efficient ICE car like a Toyota would make a lot more sense for doing LYFT/Uber.
I use a Prius for Uber, I have a blown head gasket. ICE sucks too.
@@andypeterson2126 A blown head gasket on a Prius? That is extremely unusual, I have seen many ICE cars run for well over 300,000 miles with just basic maintenance. Especially high usage service vehicles because most of the wear and tear comes from the cold starts. It is not unusual to see ICE cabs go well over half a million miles on the original engine.
This is what we already know about ICE cars, if it's a good design and properly maintained, ICE cars do really well with high usage applications (in general). With EV's we don't have a lot of data yet. For example we know that the batteries are damaged more if you use a lot of fast charging, let them get below 40% or charge them over 80%, charge them when they are hot or to cold. Perhaps that is why this gentlemen is going through so many batteries. It could be in his type of usage he is doing one or all of these things frequently. Also I have heard that some cars (high end models) have much better battery heating and cooling systems. As I understand it the Model Y is a relatively low cost EV for Tesla and does not have the best temperature control system. It could be for this type of usage you need a more heavy duty system to hold up to the stress of this type of usage. Whereas this car is designed more for mainly average light usage. Also those new larger cells that Tesla developed are much better as well so...
It is still a relatively new technology and they are clearly still working out several issues. This is why a good ICE car is still a much safer bet. Especially when you have to depend on it for revenue and you are on a budget. Then there is the fact that practically anyone can work on and get parts for an ICE car. These are very important factors when you are relying on it for your livelihood.
I am just guessing here but it seems to make sense.
@@ericmichel3857 I don’t know from my research from the Internet. It seems like my EGR valve and I want for my air intake manifold. I’ll probably clogged carbon and it might have been the reason for the overheating which might have warped the motor and or destroyed my head gasket in my Prius
@@ericmichel3857 Interesting have you thought how much you would have spent on fuel at 500,000kms, compared to say being able to charge an EV at off peak rates. The average car in Australia uses 11l/100km (ABS), petrol costs about $2 a litre, therefore at 500k you would have spent $110,000 on fuel, before we consider the maintenance costs of keeping an ICE vehicle on the road that long. In my EV I use 12kwh/100km and can charge at 7c/kwh, therefore the electricity cost for the same kms is $4,200, my car has a 60kwh LFP battery pack, which is likely to have a longer life than Li NMC and be cheaper to replace.
Uhhh no. When a component on an ICE vehicle fails it is replaced with a new OEM component. I have never received remanufactured components for any repairs done on my ICE vehicles.
Thanks for sharing. Reman battery packs often fail again, since they've also failed once before.
only very wealthy people can deal with this risk without worrying
How were you charging the car? Supercharging?
I think this whole story is hilarious 😂
Thank You for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤
Had the same thing happen to me at 86k miles. You might get a new pack if they don't have any remanufactured ones in stock. The remanufactured pack that I received read that it had 312 Miles of range on it. It has had better degradation than my original new pack so I'm pretty happy with it. I'm now at about 122k miles, so pretty much out of warranty. If it happens to die again I think I'll just part the car out and get a new one.
Kinda destroys the Co2 benefits though replacing batteries at such such duration
Maybe. I'm guessing greater than 90% of the package is salvageable.
@@stuartburns8657They are refurbished
My 2014 Model S at >500,000 km now got its 3rd battery this spring. Quite suddenly it would only charge to little over 100 km. Out of pocket around 20,000 USD. Front desk employee wouldn't tell new range or warranty specs of remanufactured pack at pickup. Something else generally not really talked about imho on EV's: when I charge up to x km range, days later I don't have that range anymore. After two weeks not driving, maybe 100 km range you paid for could be gone with the wind, maybe depending on your climate. 😮😢😊 Overall imo: repair quasi monopoly should be illegal, and electro magnetic field safety should be discussed more publicly.
contact electrified garage or rich rebuilds.
You could have bought a used 2014 Tesla S for 20K....at 100k miles
Teslas lose around 1 to 2% of battery charge per day, simply to maintain the electronics, telematics etc 24/7. I am not surprised at the loss of range after a few days if your loss is at the upper end of the scale.
@@dvsls thank you
@@badhombre4184 in the USA right?
On the 4th battery fail, scrap it ???
In Denmark (EU) the law says that you have a 2 year warranty, during this period they must not use used parts, after that under their own extra warranty it is legal. If the part is replaced, the warranty starts over on the replaced part.
This is why i dont own a EV, specially if you are a rideshare driver.
For EV, I believe Nio concept is the best. They have a program to sell car without batteries which makes car price more affordable. Then customer rent a battery with monthly charge and “battery swapping” services. Like you rent a car and no need to pay repairing fee if car malfunction. You neither have to worry about warranty or mileage you run nor battery degradation due to service life span as you always can swap a new one.
Some would argue that but would be cheaper especially the peoples who crazy about long range. However, battery is the main threat to EV car life time and re-sell prices. As car itself can run 20-30 years and other parts are reasonably cheap to replace. In addition, once battery tech improves then you could have chance to use updated tech especially “safety” as old batteries will die IR unqualified to use fir car.
For Nio, battery rental will be a regular income stream like Office 365 or Netflix and could hold customer loyalty if they provide service.
BTW, US might miss out this option as “national security” will stop Chinese car to sell in US either ban or high import tariffs.
I have a nice big old fashion V-8 luxury car. I appreciate these videos because I never want an EV. I don't want to worry about charging and if I have an accident that I have to scrap out my car. You better get rid of that car before it's out of warranty. I will just keep gassing up my car and driving 400 miles or more. Thanks
The Tesla that was used at a drag race back in the early days of Tesla performed great in the first few races. Then things went south with more races. The Tesla just couldn't hold its speed over time.
Should not be surprised at all. Fast discharge and charge should be something to be educated about. But, few people know full truth about batteries.
Why can I not find any information online about this? Oh cause it's bs
@@777jrg They hide it. Of course as a battery starts to run down power changes. Power of a regular car pretty well maintains its power no matter how many time you give it gas. EV’s do not.
Should be common knowledge for anyone knowing and having used batteries.
@@gerrydave7586 so millions of people with the car hide it. Ok 🤣
The problem I see with remanufacturing packs is that diminished cells working along side "still good" cells in a pack is a bad idea, depending on how soon the the problem is identified and rectified. If your average owner, continues to the drive the EV with some compromised cells and ignores the BMS066 code for a while, then the subusequent reman pack from their ex battery will contain cells that "are still good" but that have been exposed to cells with internal shorts. You may have got a cells in your reman pack that were in a car where the owner didn't id the problem or take notice of it for a while.
Yeah even on toy grade car it says "don't use different manufacturer and/or differently usd batteries and they do that on 60k+ cars
👍👏Nice to see someone with battery knowledge and sense.
I drive a 2023 Honda CRV Hybrid. After owning it for 2 months and driving about 4K miles, I had a total battery failure. Thankfully I was under warranty and Honda ordered and replaced my battery. This took nearly two months, and they did loan mt a car during the time. When I signed off on the service, I saw that the battery cost was $7K. I was shocked! I hope this battery doesn't fail outside of warranty because we could not afford to replace it. This is a small hybrid battery, so I couldn't imagine a full electric car battery price like on a Tesla. 😨
We should be able to replace our own batteries 🔋. It's a simple connector, that being said sounds like you DON'T charge at home 😢
Makes me wonder if something is wrong with your car/charger vs the pack.
Or maybe it is just high wear and tear of use/charging?
Nice video, I did my research a few years ago about battery cost, that’s one reason why I’m not going to buy any EV, buy conventional cars or hybrid, good luck to you, hoping this will be your last issue 🚍🚘🏎️
when its out of warranty ,,, you now own a boat anchor
Let's be realistic, he already does!
It would be very difficult for them to reconfigure packs. I believe the packs in the 3 and Y are essentially one big block of glue. It's more likely for them to swap for packs that didn't meet their 'new pack' standards.
The problem Tesla has is they don't even do that, according to another comment.
I think it's safe to say you can skip all of the "one weird trick" stuff to get more out of your Tesla battery. If you fully charge, the cells _must_ be balanced or the high cells will die; that's just how Li packs have to be charged and it's accounted for.
Tesla's handling of batteries problems and their obvious manufacturing defects (water ingress) are why I have another brand's EV on order right now even though, counting the $7500 Federal incentive... Model 3 is more than a little tempting. ...well, that and, we're pretending they're a smart company but no one there has figured out that a long-roof wagon is utterly superior to a sedan.
Telsa, I think you make some of the ugliest cars on the planet, but if there was a model 3 estate... I'd be in crisis right now.
In our market here in the US long roof sedan don't sell well.
Model Y is the best selling vehicle in the World, including gasoline cars.
So they must be doing something right.
The reason the model Y is selling so well is that companies are buying them because of government mandate. And car lots can't sell these things so they are "buying" them and selling them as second hand. Hertz just dumped their entire fleet of teslas.
A few more years and this China backed push for EV's will be over.
I am in the same situation as you. Model 3 2021, I had my battery replaced in June of 2024 with 60k miles. Sep this month I had the same error again!! And just like you I immediately drove it in and now I’m currently waiting for them to repair my Tesla.
I have 65k miles on it and still am good up to 120k however it really concerns me if this keeps happening and I will absolutely not pay 13k for another battery
Please share more of this. The government is profiting on every sale of EV car here in the USA. We need to keep Hybrid and other gas vehicles around.
Hope you get to drive this to 200k with no problems!
Hope so too. Definitely trying to do what I can to keep it good.
We all know that's not going to happen...
An honest EV owner.. so rare and refreshing. Thank you. What about resale value?
To compare your situation with an ICE car owner, it's like the ICE car had to change engine 3 times in the first 2 years of ownership and still not knowing if his 3rd engine would last him, specially after the warranty goes out. Crazy.
So eventually; the car becomes a throw away car. Unless you pay $20,000. This is straight crazy.
What's even crazier people don't care they want their little battery operated toy car it's a freaking cult of tesla.
You can get a lemon ICE car too. It's a mix of luck and maintenance. There are Teslas with 300,000+ miles on them.
@utbunny This doesn't appear to be a lemon. His problem sounds like. The battery does not like being charged so frequently. The motor of an ICE car is currently less to replace than a Tesla battery. Their are examples of both electric & ICE cars having very high mileage. The point is that battery cost currently about $20,000 or more. If you are not under warranty. You will be paying for it or selling the car with a major lost of profit. Electric car technology currently is not better than ICE cars. And the charging infrastructure definitely isn't. Sorry. Try having a problem with one and see how complex, expensive, and long it will take to fix out of warranty. And trust me; I did plenty of research. I almost bought a Model S Performance. It's still a lot of uncertainty with these cars right now. Tesla's Model S hasn't even been here 15 years.
😂same with ICE like
you will pay the $20 grand and LIKE IT...!!! (stuttering/halting Elon voice)
I think this is an excellent opportunity to bring battery pack replacements under warranty with attorneys experienced in "Lemon Law" issues. It is one thing to have one battery fail. But two or more deserves to have assistance in consumer protections under state law either by a skilled attorney or state Attorney General.
That’s a very good point. Consumers are being cheated when they charge the price of a new battery when they are only given a portion of a dead pack.
I’ve only heard one person every that actually needed their battery replaced. I did have a buddy this year have to take back two brand new tacomas to Toyota because of unrepairable engine problems in their new v6. Read the thousands of reviews from model y owners who are well over 100k miles with no problems. Guy in Australia drove his model y 500,000 miles on the original battery.
13k for replacement pack accounts for salvage value of ur pack. We can order brand new packs which cost 21k. Replacement packs have 1 year unlimited mile warranty.
Note to self: do not buy an EV anytime soon.