Hey Justin, Boyd Johnson from Boyd Cycling here. We just found this video and I wanted to comment on a few things. First of all, the wheels you have are from about 2011, so those were produced before higher temperature resins were commercially available. With advanced in carbon, carbon rims have been able to handle more and more heat. In the early 2010 pretty much all wheel companies that had full carbon clinchers experienced failures. We included literature on our website and with every wheel purchase about the limitations of using wheels in very hilly areas and encouraged the use of tubulars (which don't have the outward pressure against the hooks) if riders wanted to use carbon for hilly areas. I understand your frustration about the rebuild and not being about to rebuild with your hub. However, again since that wheel was from 2011 that hub is very old and if anything were to happen once you got the wheel back, then you are right back to needing parts replaced. We recognize that parts wear out over time and we had spare parts for those hub for over 6 years after discontinuing them. If you went through the crash replacement, got a new rim, and then a pawl broke and you had to go through that whole process again it would not be an enjoyable experience. For wheels like this, that have been used for 12 years that is where we want to give the option of getting the brand new set at a discount so you can get the newest rim brake technology with the best temperature rating, along with the advances we have in our hubs over the years. For what it's worth, we are dedicated to keeping rim brake wheels around, even as most other wheel manufacturers drop rim brake all together. We recognize that for a lot of people, they prefer rim brake or they have a rim brake bike that they love. It's been quite a while since we've had a heat related issue on a wheel, and I know for certain that our newest rims with the laser cut texturing have had zero heat issues. This is also when carbon is being used as an everyday option, whereas in the early 2010 carbon was still regulated to "event only" situations. Please, if you ever have any concerns in the future reach out to me. I always want to be as open as possible.
Heyo, First off, thanks much for the reply. I understand that the video would have been easy to just ignore, and conversations like these are never fun to have, so I want to make sure to acknowledge that. Now that we’re a couple months removed from the incident itself, I think my thoughts are best summed up (in conjunction with your reply) in the following ways. I don’t intend this to be a point by point argument; rather, just to let you know where I’m at: 1) Regarding safety: as someone’s who’s been in the sport for 15+ years, I was not aware that carbon clinchers rim-brakes were indeed that risky. I think most cyclists knew they had limitations, but my perception was more ‘Don’t descend the Tourmalet on them” rather than it was “Be careful on any hills.” If it is indeed closer to the second, then I would encourage the industry to be more vocal about the inherent limitations of earlier-gen resins (possibly even with a nice discount code for original owners, which could lead people to upgrade to safer wheels.) 2) I fully acknowledge and understand the challenges of providing a lifetime warranty. I fully believe that Boyd (as a company) intended to keep parts on hand. My feedback as a user is that I went to your website basically out of curiosity for crash replacements, not expecting anything much at all. What I found was a very unequivocal “regardless of age, condition, or where they bought the wheels.” I would summarize my feelings as: I understand it is very difficult to truly offer lifetime, unlimited support. However, if that’s a claim you make, then that likely sways people into buying your wheels over another’s; if it’s a claim that you choose to make, then I believe it is fair for a person to expect to receive it. I see that you have updated your site to include language regarding old hubs, and I support this. I would encourage a reconsideration of the lifetime language if it’s likely to be closer to 5-10 years (which arguably is exactly when people will need to use it.) 3) I appreciate the offer for me to reach out directly. The reason I chose not to is because I had reached out to your customer service, and I do not feel like I should receive any different access by virtue of having a RUclips presence. Again, thank you for the reply. I’ve pinned your comment and you’re always welcome to comment further if you feel I’ve misrepresented something in any way (as that’s never my intention.) I have always heard good things about Boyd (as a company,) your involvement in the cycling community, and your company does good things. I believe you may be connected to Time’s new carbon facility as well? I just bought a Time myself, so if you are, best of luck on that venture.
Back in 2014 I was with a team sponsored by Boyd, literally ALL riders using these wheels experienced similar issues. One of my teammates who was an experienced cat 2 had BOTH wheels disintegrated during a race with aggressive downhills. He somehow did not crash but... Only difference is that at the time Boyd was good replacing the wheels immediately (but most went on to only use them as training wheels)
This sounds horribly similar to my situation with a broken Trek bike. It’s been relegated to the bike trainer because I’d never want to sell it to anyone. Thanks for posting this. I’m looking forward to hearing Boyd’s response but it’s not a great look for them in general. 😬
My mind went to that right away. I totally get relegating it to a trainer machine. It seems like such a waste (and same for me with my remaining front wheel) but when you can't in good conscience pass it on, there's nothing else to do really. I'm looking at a new road bike and I'm *aggressively* prioritizing companies renowned for high quality frames and first party components. My wallet isn't going to be happy, but (as you know much better than I do) that feeling of gear failure isn't one I want again.
When assessing risk management, it is important to not just assess the risk of something happening. It is important to also assess the consequences should something happen. For years while riding a rim brake bike I looked at and researched carbon wheels. While, like you, I viewed the risk as being very low, I saw the consequence of a carbon wheel failure as being potentially very high. Thus, I stayed away from carbon wheels until a bought a disc brake bike a few years back. Sorry you are having the issues with Boyd. That sucks. But brother, you also dodged a bullet in that your carbon wheel failure did not end in a catastrophic bike crash. I'm very happy for that.
Either ride aluminium (alloy) wheels with rim brakes OR carbon with disc brakes. Carbon has NO ability to dissipate heat so the brake track takes the full pressure of the heat and thus the brake track takes the brunt of the heat and eventually will fail. You experienced this at a great place for it to happen. Several riders here experienced catastrophic failures with serious and life threatening injuries.
Great video by Peak Torque exploring the limitations of carbon clincher rim brake wheels from an engineering standpoint: ruclips.net/video/7O95Cd-aogk/видео.html
Sorry to hear about your experience both with the technical short comings and underwhelming customer service. About the rim failure: When carbon heats up due to braking the risc of delamination is high because of the clincher tubes. The tubes push outward in the horizonal direction (wear the tire hook meets the bead). Think about the 6 to 9 bar you might be running. That's a major weak point of clincher carbon rim brake wheels. Pro's didn't suffer from it since they use(d) tubes. For me the carbon rik brake wheels on my IA16 are OK because of the very very flat area I live in. Road bike is on disc brakes. And that was my preliminary requirement to even think of carbon wheels. I'll take the extra maintance hassle for what it is.
Totally. Peak Torque did a great video about it, basically arguing that rim brake carbon clinchers are a fundamentally poor design for exactly what you said, and that he'd only run tubs or discs. I don't want to go tublulars, so that's no option for me, but yeah. Agree; discs on my mtb are a bit of a pain, but so much better.
I got rim and disc, rim is so much better maintenance wise and no ting ting sound after a descent. Disc is great in the wet and won't wear out a brake track.
Hahah, I can hear the tingtingtingting sound. No doubt, rim brakes are great for maintinence. Anything involving liquid on my mtb is instantly less fun (and I'm lucky to have mineral oil, not DOT.)
1.) go disc brakes. It’s literally the future and the future is here now. 2.) tubeless breh. Tubeless. 3.) Boyd is open form Chinese wheels. You get what you pay for. I’m a big fan of Reynolds, HED, Enve, and Hunt. I’ve tried and abused all of them, zero issues with any. Love, Triathlete on 2023 Trek Speed Concept, 2023 Trek Emonda, all new HED wheels, disc brakes, and tubeless tires since 2016. 😎
Is it true that your wheels are over 11 years old. If that is so, can’t imagine why Boyd is at fault. See the test below ruclips.net/video/9T1T96pFVdQ/видео.htmlsi=C_qeaEpAuKh-zum4
@@coffeytnmilk I also have 50 year old wheels that can sustain a 2 minute 5% gradient just fine. Is Boyd at fault? Well, the real point is that it's very clear that carbon rim brake wheels were never optimal, and they themselves stated that these wheels had less ability to handle heat than modern more recent ones. It's up to you to decide if minutes at highway gradient before a dangerous blowout is reasonable or not. Personally, I absolutely don't. If that's a controversial take, so be it. The sound of that blowout and feel of a broken wheel colors my opinion. I won't ever ride carbon rim brake wheels again.
@@JustinDoesTriathlon yeah - I think your post is unfair to Boyd. Carbon wheels are new tech. They have revised the resin since and published test data. 12 years ago, we didn’t have disc brakes either. Frankly - I wouldn’t ride and never have ridden carbon with clinchers. But carbon is an exotic tech - then. Appreciate the response. Thank you. I just got a bad vibe about Boyd and I don’t think it is a fair assessment of them. Cheers
@@coffeytnmilk Well, we all have different perspectives. Having a wheel delaminate under me after 3 minutes of a very gradual decent certainly altered mine. And you're right, things have absolutely inproved in the last decade; Boyd's comment stated that as well. Everyone in the world knew that carbon rim brake wheels weren't great for braking under long fast decents. But 3 minutes at highway grade? Like I said in the video, either one of two things: Either my failure was typical and should have been expected, or it was atypical due to a production error. If it's the first, and that very dangerous situation could happen so quickly? Then that should have been made VERY clear to the world at large. Also heck, the video you posted has one comment of someone critiquing their test methodology too. 7lb of braking force for 20 min means nothing if 12lb of braking will do in in 2 minutes (hypothetically). You could also brake those infinitely at 2lb I bet. Manufacturers need to start showing time at grade. If my wheel even has *potential* to explode on an 8 minute decent, I'm never gonna risk my life on it. The technology has moved on.
Hmmm. I'd side with Boyd on this one... 2011 wheels with thousands of miles and of course we know how carbon reacts with extreme heat. Unfotunately, time to up grade. It is what it is... I think Boyd went above and beyond trying to hook you up with the 20% discount. Good luck on your wheel quest.
Upgrade to disc brakes for sure. Interestingly, I was actually more with them until their reply in the comments. As I see it, there's fundamentally two issues: A wheel problem, and a customer service prob. The CS one is annoying, but whatever, we've all got those and life moves on. In the comment below, they state "In the early 2010 pretty much all wheel companies that had full carbon clinchers experienced failures." Knowing that I was riding around on wheels that they knew were at apparently significant risk of failure? Oof. I've changed brands.
Boyd basically is in a use case of where their warranty and current technology doesn't align and they are doing the shitty thing of trying to wiggle out of it. The correct thing for them to do is offer you full credit for whatever you paid for your current boyd wheels on a new set of wheels as a reasonable compromise. While this solution wouldn't made me happy....I could understand and deal with it as a "time marches on" problem.
Totally. Funny thing is, I basically didn't even 'expect' to get a crash replacement. They're super old wheels, and when I saw that, I was like, "Well this is amazing, alright then!" And then it was a no. I get grumpy when brands do things like that. It's really easy to use that on the front end to move more product, and then it's crappy to try to back out on the back end when the act of honoring it is hard. I can't say I think I "deserve" replacement wheels in that case fully, but if you're gonna offer it, then you should honor it.
Justin, your content is amazing. It’s so relatable and approachable. I ride HED Jets specifically because of this anxiety. I want alloy for the wheel structure and brake track. It might be heavier and slower, but I get peace of mind.
Thanks James! I don't remember if I left it in the vid or edited it out, but yes, the alu track+carbon fairing is probably the right way to do this. Now that I've seen the failure mode, and more importantly, how quickly it can happen, no way. I have a new road bike on order with disc brakes (sorta good timing not directly related to this) and I'm very happy about the discs.
Justin, so after 11 days when you did not get a response, why did you drop the issue? Why didn't you follow up with them? It sounded like you were close to them rebuilding the wheel around your old hub. I think you should have pushed the issue. Additionally, sorry about your crash, and I can somewhat relate to the experience you had. While I never had a catastrophic failure on my pre 2011 Fulcrum carbon rim brake wheels, as an engineer, I could never seem to find any data that would help determine when the useful life of carbon-rim brake wheels is up. It has always been a mystery that haunted me on every ride. Now, with a set of Boyd Prologue 44 disc wheels, I dont worry about that issue anymore, and feel confident in a robust design. Good luck.
Thanks for the video. I’m assuming Boyd has pretty much switched over to all disc production and that’s causing the problem honoring the replacement warranty. Not right though! I hear everything you said and I’m sure if it happened to me I’d have a different opinion. Currently I just can’t justify the expense of switching over to disc. Especially with several bikes and wheels
Same. I actually really don't want to buy a disc tri bike either. I'm juuuuuuust convincing myself to get a new road bike after ~12 years, and I ride my road bike a TON. I really rarely ride my tri bike. I won't be getting a new one this year for sure. :(
Justin, you were just looking to upgrade to the best and newest without feeling guilty about it, I do that sometimes, all men are guilty of that! I say go ahead and do it, life is short, so enjoy it while you can!
I don’t blame you for feeling frustrated. I hope this is an isolated incident with Boyd and they’re not selling a wheel of this quality to everyone. The best thing I ever did was switch to disc brakes. My confidence in descending increased 10 fold.
That sucks! I ride on HED Jet Black 9 front and a HED Jet Black RCD on the back. I purchased these primarily for the textured brake tracks ( I had ridden on HED 3cs with carbon and did not like the braking performance in the rain.
I’m glad i went with a set of wheels for my tri bike that are the aluminum with a carbon fairing, at least the new bikes will also have some great integration for tool storage, and hydration.
Yep! I'm not gonna put more money into that setup, but that's exactly the best of both worlds option I would reccomend to people. I just can't get behind carbon clincher rim brakes anymore.
I have 4 sets of wheels that I built myself all using BOYD rims. 3 sets are aluminum Altamont rims and one is Carbon 36mm. Never had issues which is why I've stayed with BOYD. But then too all my wheels are disc brake. I've built many wheels over the many years, I think BOYD rims are stronger than lots of other brands like Velocity, WTB, or DT Swiss. Your issue with the rims comes down to a common issue using carbon rim brake rims which is why the industry has moved away from that. I wouldn't be too mad at BOYD because this problem was a learning curve the whole industry learned. Even if BOYD did rebuild the wheel for free I wouldn't use it. Actually I think they are protecting you by refusing to rebuild you the same wheel.
(Sorry, I was replying to Boyd's comment here and think I temporarily posted that reply to your comment. If you were confused, my bad.) I think you're spot on re: carbon clincher, rim brake, old resin. Actually, Boyd himself pretty much confirmed that in his comment. Had they rebuilt it, they would have used my hub and it would have been on a newer rim (which apparently has more advanced resin and/or carbon that's better capable of handling temps.) Suspect you're right though, overall, just a good move not to be on them. I have no proof of this, but I fully believe that Boyd wheels are not any more risky than any other brand (heck, they're probably better than a lot.) But yes, I've just decided that, for me, the fundamental design of carbon clincher rim brakes isn't one I'm taking a chance on anymore.
@@JustinDoesTriathlon Let me make one more point, never trust an engineer in the bicycle industry. The whole industry is out of control and a lot of these companies are just rebranding Chinese made junk. Most of the people that call themselves engineers are not or they wouldn't put products like this out there that someone could ultimately loose their life using. Way too much faith has been put into carbon components because they can make it lighter or look cooler. I don't trust the majority of the uses for carbon because I've had thousands of dollars of that light weight stuff break. Having things like this happen are things that we cyclists shouldn't even have to worry about, but we do because it's a real possibility. Take a look at my bike, and yes I know you will say the wheels are carbon, but they are discs and pretty deep hoops which make them a bit stronger. I don't run them all the time because I have other aluminum wheelsets I use too. ruclips.net/video/6GvH7Li3sow/видео.htmlsi=s5I9q34zYB8Qkq0K
I’ve blown out tubes on hot days and on long descents, but my Chinese carbon rims survived unscathed. So definitely not all carbon rims are made the same.
Hey Justin, Boyd Johnson from Boyd Cycling here. We just found this video and I wanted to comment on a few things.
First of all, the wheels you have are from about 2011, so those were produced before higher temperature resins were commercially available. With advanced in carbon, carbon rims have been able to handle more and more heat. In the early 2010 pretty much all wheel companies that had full carbon clinchers experienced failures. We included literature on our website and with every wheel purchase about the limitations of using wheels in very hilly areas and encouraged the use of tubulars (which don't have the outward pressure against the hooks) if riders wanted to use carbon for hilly areas.
I understand your frustration about the rebuild and not being about to rebuild with your hub. However, again since that wheel was from 2011 that hub is very old and if anything were to happen once you got the wheel back, then you are right back to needing parts replaced. We recognize that parts wear out over time and we had spare parts for those hub for over 6 years after discontinuing them. If you went through the crash replacement, got a new rim, and then a pawl broke and you had to go through that whole process again it would not be an enjoyable experience.
For wheels like this, that have been used for 12 years that is where we want to give the option of getting the brand new set at a discount so you can get the newest rim brake technology with the best temperature rating, along with the advances we have in our hubs over the years.
For what it's worth, we are dedicated to keeping rim brake wheels around, even as most other wheel manufacturers drop rim brake all together. We recognize that for a lot of people, they prefer rim brake or they have a rim brake bike that they love. It's been quite a while since we've had a heat related issue on a wheel, and I know for certain that our newest rims with the laser cut texturing have had zero heat issues. This is also when carbon is being used as an everyday option, whereas in the early 2010 carbon was still regulated to "event only" situations.
Please, if you ever have any concerns in the future reach out to me. I always want to be as open as possible.
Heyo,
First off, thanks much for the reply. I understand that the video would have been easy to just ignore, and conversations like these are never fun to have, so I want to make sure to acknowledge that.
Now that we’re a couple months removed from the incident itself, I think my thoughts are best summed up (in conjunction with your reply) in the following ways. I don’t intend this to be a point by point argument; rather, just to let you know where I’m at:
1) Regarding safety: as someone’s who’s been in the sport for 15+ years, I was not aware that carbon clinchers rim-brakes were indeed that risky. I think most cyclists knew they had limitations, but my perception was more ‘Don’t descend the Tourmalet on them” rather than it was “Be careful on any hills.” If it is indeed closer to the second, then I would encourage the industry to be more vocal about the inherent limitations of earlier-gen resins (possibly even with a nice discount code for original owners, which could lead people to upgrade to safer wheels.)
2) I fully acknowledge and understand the challenges of providing a lifetime warranty. I fully believe that Boyd (as a company) intended to keep parts on hand. My feedback as a user is that I went to your website basically out of curiosity for crash replacements, not expecting anything much at all. What I found was a very unequivocal “regardless of age, condition, or where they bought the wheels.” I would summarize my feelings as: I understand it is very difficult to truly offer lifetime, unlimited support. However, if that’s a claim you make, then that likely sways people into buying your wheels over another’s; if it’s a claim that you choose to make, then I believe it is fair for a person to expect to receive it. I see that you have updated your site to include language regarding old hubs, and I support this. I would encourage a reconsideration of the lifetime language if it’s likely to be closer to 5-10 years (which arguably is exactly when people will need to use it.)
3) I appreciate the offer for me to reach out directly. The reason I chose not to is because I had reached out to your customer service, and I do not feel like I should receive any different access by virtue of having a RUclips presence.
Again, thank you for the reply. I’ve pinned your comment and you’re always welcome to comment further if you feel I’ve misrepresented something in any way (as that’s never my intention.) I have always heard good things about Boyd (as a company,) your involvement in the cycling community, and your company does good things. I believe you may be connected to Time’s new carbon facility as well? I just bought a Time myself, so if you are, best of luck on that venture.
"In the early 2010 pretty much all wheel companies that had full carbon clinchers experienced failures." Should not that be enough for a recall?
To share a good experience with Boyd’s- I’ve ridden mine for over 10,000 miles and 7 years without issue.
Back in 2014 I was with a team sponsored by Boyd, literally ALL riders using these wheels experienced similar issues. One of my teammates who was an experienced cat 2 had BOTH wheels disintegrated during a race with aggressive downhills. He somehow did not crash but... Only difference is that at the time Boyd was good replacing the wheels immediately (but most went on to only use them as training wheels)
Hot damn, having 2 go at once must have been terrifying. That's wild. :/
This sounds horribly similar to my situation with a broken Trek bike. It’s been relegated to the bike trainer because I’d never want to sell it to anyone. Thanks for posting this. I’m looking forward to hearing Boyd’s response but it’s not a great look for them in general. 😬
My mind went to that right away. I totally get relegating it to a trainer machine. It seems like such a waste (and same for me with my remaining front wheel) but when you can't in good conscience pass it on, there's nothing else to do really. I'm looking at a new road bike and I'm *aggressively* prioritizing companies renowned for high quality frames and first party components. My wallet isn't going to be happy, but (as you know much better than I do) that feeling of gear failure isn't one I want again.
When assessing risk management, it is important to not just assess the risk of something happening. It is important to also assess the consequences should something happen. For years while riding a rim brake bike I looked at and researched carbon wheels. While, like you, I viewed the risk as being very low, I saw the consequence of a carbon wheel failure as being potentially very high. Thus, I stayed away from carbon wheels until a bought a disc brake bike a few years back. Sorry you are having the issues with Boyd. That sucks. But brother, you also dodged a bullet in that your carbon wheel failure did not end in a catastrophic bike crash. I'm very happy for that.
Exactly how I feel now, and very true. Thanks, I'm happy too. Only in retrospect did I realize, "boy that was sketch"
Either ride aluminium (alloy) wheels with rim brakes OR carbon with disc brakes. Carbon has NO ability to dissipate heat so the brake track takes the full pressure of the heat and thus the brake track takes the brunt of the heat and eventually will fail. You experienced this at a great place for it to happen. Several riders here experienced catastrophic failures with serious and life threatening injuries.
Indeed. That was not fun and I'm very happy it wasn't worse.
Great video by Peak Torque exploring the limitations of carbon clincher rim brake wheels from an engineering standpoint: ruclips.net/video/7O95Cd-aogk/видео.html
Sorry to hear about your experience both with the technical short comings and underwhelming customer service.
About the rim failure: When carbon heats up due to braking the risc of delamination is high because of the clincher tubes. The tubes push outward in the horizonal direction (wear the tire hook meets the bead). Think about the 6 to 9 bar you might be running. That's a major weak point of clincher carbon rim brake wheels. Pro's didn't suffer from it since they use(d) tubes.
For me the carbon rik brake wheels on my IA16 are OK because of the very very flat area I live in. Road bike is on disc brakes. And that was my preliminary requirement to even think of carbon wheels. I'll take the extra maintance hassle for what it is.
Totally. Peak Torque did a great video about it, basically arguing that rim brake carbon clinchers are a fundamentally poor design for exactly what you said, and that he'd only run tubs or discs. I don't want to go tublulars, so that's no option for me, but yeah. Agree; discs on my mtb are a bit of a pain, but so much better.
I got rim and disc, rim is so much better maintenance wise and no ting ting sound after a descent. Disc is great in the wet and won't wear out a brake track.
Hahah, I can hear the tingtingtingting sound. No doubt, rim brakes are great for maintinence. Anything involving liquid on my mtb is instantly less fun (and I'm lucky to have mineral oil, not DOT.)
1.) go disc brakes. It’s literally the future and the future is here now. 2.) tubeless breh. Tubeless. 3.) Boyd is open form Chinese wheels. You get what you pay for. I’m a big fan of Reynolds, HED, Enve, and Hunt. I’ve tried and abused all of them, zero issues with any.
Love,
Triathlete on 2023 Trek Speed Concept, 2023 Trek Emonda, all new HED wheels, disc brakes, and tubeless tires since 2016. 😎
Very true. My new road bike is disc/tubeless (with a non-drilled rim requiring no tape.) It's just... so much better.
Carbon clinchers are a risk I will never take again either.
Is it true that your wheels are over 11 years old. If that is so, can’t imagine why Boyd is at fault. See the test below ruclips.net/video/9T1T96pFVdQ/видео.htmlsi=C_qeaEpAuKh-zum4
@@coffeytnmilk I also have 50 year old wheels that can sustain a 2 minute 5% gradient just fine. Is Boyd at fault? Well, the real point is that it's very clear that carbon rim brake wheels were never optimal, and they themselves stated that these wheels had less ability to handle heat than modern more recent ones. It's up to you to decide if minutes at highway gradient before a dangerous blowout is reasonable or not. Personally, I absolutely don't. If that's a controversial take, so be it. The sound of that blowout and feel of a broken wheel colors my opinion. I won't ever ride carbon rim brake wheels again.
@@JustinDoesTriathlon yeah - I think your post is unfair to Boyd. Carbon wheels are new tech. They have revised the resin since and published test data. 12 years ago, we didn’t have disc brakes either.
Frankly - I wouldn’t ride and never have ridden carbon with clinchers. But carbon is an exotic tech - then.
Appreciate the response. Thank you. I just got a bad vibe about Boyd and I don’t think it is a fair assessment of them.
Cheers
@@coffeytnmilk Well, we all have different perspectives. Having a wheel delaminate under me after 3 minutes of a very gradual decent certainly altered mine. And you're right, things have absolutely inproved in the last decade; Boyd's comment stated that as well. Everyone in the world knew that carbon rim brake wheels weren't great for braking under long fast decents. But 3 minutes at highway grade? Like I said in the video, either one of two things: Either my failure was typical and should have been expected, or it was atypical due to a production error. If it's the first, and that very dangerous situation could happen so quickly? Then that should have been made VERY clear to the world at large. Also heck, the video you posted has one comment of someone critiquing their test methodology too. 7lb of braking force for 20 min means nothing if 12lb of braking will do in in 2 minutes (hypothetically). You could also brake those infinitely at 2lb I bet. Manufacturers need to start showing time at grade. If my wheel even has *potential* to explode on an 8 minute decent, I'm never gonna risk my life on it. The technology has moved on.
Hmmm. I'd side with Boyd on this one... 2011 wheels with thousands of miles and of course we know how carbon reacts with extreme heat. Unfotunately, time to up grade. It is what it is... I think Boyd went above and beyond trying to hook you up with the 20% discount. Good luck on your wheel quest.
Upgrade to disc brakes for sure. Interestingly, I was actually more with them until their reply in the comments. As I see it, there's fundamentally two issues: A wheel problem, and a customer service prob. The CS one is annoying, but whatever, we've all got those and life moves on. In the comment below, they state "In the early 2010 pretty much all wheel companies that had full carbon clinchers experienced failures." Knowing that I was riding around on wheels that they knew were at apparently significant risk of failure? Oof. I've changed brands.
Boyd basically is in a use case of where their warranty and current technology doesn't align and they are doing the shitty thing of trying to wiggle out of it. The correct thing for them to do is offer you full credit for whatever you paid for your current boyd wheels on a new set of wheels as a reasonable compromise. While this solution wouldn't made me happy....I could understand and deal with it as a "time marches on" problem.
Totally. Funny thing is, I basically didn't even 'expect' to get a crash replacement. They're super old wheels, and when I saw that, I was like, "Well this is amazing, alright then!" And then it was a no. I get grumpy when brands do things like that. It's really easy to use that on the front end to move more product, and then it's crappy to try to back out on the back end when the act of honoring it is hard. I can't say I think I "deserve" replacement wheels in that case fully, but if you're gonna offer it, then you should honor it.
Justin, your content is amazing. It’s so relatable and approachable.
I ride HED Jets specifically because of this anxiety. I want alloy for the wheel structure and brake track. It might be heavier and slower, but I get peace of mind.
Thanks James! I don't remember if I left it in the vid or edited it out, but yes, the alu track+carbon fairing is probably the right way to do this. Now that I've seen the failure mode, and more importantly, how quickly it can happen, no way. I have a new road bike on order with disc brakes (sorta good timing not directly related to this) and I'm very happy about the discs.
Justin, so after 11 days when you did not get a response, why did you drop the issue? Why didn't you follow up with them? It sounded like you were close to them rebuilding the wheel around your old hub. I think you should have pushed the issue. Additionally, sorry about your crash, and I can somewhat relate to the experience you had. While I never had a catastrophic failure on my pre 2011 Fulcrum carbon rim brake wheels, as an engineer, I could never seem to find any data that would help determine when the useful life of carbon-rim brake wheels is up. It has always been a mystery that haunted me on every ride. Now, with a set of Boyd Prologue 44 disc wheels, I dont worry about that issue anymore, and feel confident in a robust design. Good luck.
Thanks for the video. I’m assuming Boyd has pretty much switched over to all disc production and that’s causing the problem honoring the replacement warranty. Not right though!
I hear everything you said and I’m sure if it happened to me I’d have a different opinion. Currently I just can’t justify the expense of switching over to disc. Especially with several bikes and wheels
Same. I actually really don't want to buy a disc tri bike either. I'm juuuuuuust convincing myself to get a new road bike after ~12 years, and I ride my road bike a TON. I really rarely ride my tri bike. I won't be getting a new one this year for sure. :(
Justin, you were just looking to upgrade to the best and newest without feeling guilty about it, I do that sometimes, all men are guilty of that! I say go ahead and do it, life is short, so enjoy it while you can!
Ha, I'm not really an "upgrade for the sake of it" person. Selling the included Zipps was the first thing I did after buying my Time 😅
What about zip 404? Are they safe?
*in my opinion,* I would not / will not ride any carbon, rim brake wheels from any manufacturer.
I don’t blame you for feeling frustrated. I hope this is an isolated incident with Boyd and they’re not selling a wheel of this quality to everyone. The best thing I ever did was switch to disc brakes. My confidence in descending increased 10 fold.
I think I was extra disappointed because, to their credit, I've always heard fantastic things about Boyd and their involvement in the community.
That sucks! I ride on HED Jet Black 9 front and a HED Jet Black RCD on the back. I purchased these primarily for the textured brake tracks ( I had ridden on HED 3cs with carbon and did not like the braking performance in the rain.
Yeah, a solid zero on the zero to fun range! 😅 I've never ridden HEDs but I certainly know that carbon-in-the-rain feeling. Not great.
I’m glad i went with a set of wheels for my tri bike that are the aluminum with a carbon fairing, at least the new bikes will also have some great integration for tool storage, and hydration.
Yep! I'm not gonna put more money into that setup, but that's exactly the best of both worlds option I would reccomend to people. I just can't get behind carbon clincher rim brakes anymore.
I have 4 sets of wheels that I built myself all using BOYD rims. 3 sets are aluminum Altamont rims and one is Carbon 36mm. Never had issues which is why I've stayed with BOYD. But then too all my wheels are disc brake. I've built many wheels over the many years, I think BOYD rims are stronger than lots of other brands like Velocity, WTB, or DT Swiss. Your issue with the rims comes down to a common issue using carbon rim brake rims which is why the industry has moved away from that. I wouldn't be too mad at BOYD because this problem was a learning curve the whole industry learned. Even if BOYD did rebuild the wheel for free I wouldn't use it. Actually I think they are protecting you by refusing to rebuild you the same wheel.
(Sorry, I was replying to Boyd's comment here and think I temporarily posted that reply to your comment. If you were confused, my bad.) I think you're spot on re: carbon clincher, rim brake, old resin. Actually, Boyd himself pretty much confirmed that in his comment. Had they rebuilt it, they would have used my hub and it would have been on a newer rim (which apparently has more advanced resin and/or carbon that's better capable of handling temps.) Suspect you're right though, overall, just a good move not to be on them. I have no proof of this, but I fully believe that Boyd wheels are not any more risky than any other brand (heck, they're probably better than a lot.) But yes, I've just decided that, for me, the fundamental design of carbon clincher rim brakes isn't one I'm taking a chance on anymore.
@@JustinDoesTriathlon Let me make one more point, never trust an engineer in the bicycle industry. The whole industry is out of control and a lot of these companies are just rebranding Chinese made junk. Most of the people that call themselves engineers are not or they wouldn't put products like this out there that someone could ultimately loose their life using. Way too much faith has been put into carbon components because they can make it lighter or look cooler. I don't trust the majority of the uses for carbon because I've had thousands of dollars of that light weight stuff break. Having things like this happen are things that we cyclists shouldn't even have to worry about, but we do because it's a real possibility. Take a look at my bike, and yes I know you will say the wheels are carbon, but they are discs and pretty deep hoops which make them a bit stronger. I don't run them all the time because I have other aluminum wheelsets I use too. ruclips.net/video/6GvH7Li3sow/видео.htmlsi=s5I9q34zYB8Qkq0K
I’ve blown out tubes on hot days and on long descents, but my Chinese carbon rims survived unscathed. So definitely not all carbon rims are made the same.
I have some Light Bicycle wheels with DT hubs about to ship! For my new road bike tho
Hopefully disc brakes this time?
Absolutely!