Sport is about skill as well not just muscle strength. And skill is something you work hard through training and technique so as long as both parties have the same opportunity then it’s fair game
@@robby12320 yep, Devon and MMT have those bends. Far as I see it, on that 2nd match with Levan, Devon was 1. Fully outstretched 2. Under the table, and 3. His arm was at a side and open angle trying to get as much away from the pin pad as possible. If you’re going to do that, then the opponent should absolutely be allowed to cross center line to press down on your arm. It just becomes something other than arm wrestling at that point.
Id say bad take. Before i was a kings mover, i grew up in the sport in the same province as crazy george. I have heard many people who dont understand the move complain about it to no end..over the last 30 years. the move is absolutely beatable. U are not out of options.. u are out of your favorite options. Let me clearly tell the people who have an issue with the kings move - u need to adapt. U need to find a way thru the move.. there are many ways. Saying there is no way no option just tells me that u have not taken the time to explore all the options. U can say you have fallen into any mives trap.. fall into a great press.. great flop great hook great anything. U r in their game. The argument about straight isnt really true, but to counter we could flip it and say the press cant get unblocked.. armwrestling is an art, a sport, a fight. Any attempt to shink is to move us toward powerlifting, which, in my opinion is not the true flavor of the sport. Lastly to restate. U r losing against a kings move basicly because u have lost flexion of wrist and rise. U have lost the ability to regrip.. work on that. The rules in place now.. i personally would push the other way, but i think the compromise is ok. No need to add more rules to target a single option in armwrestling which is a balance for so many things. Ive got mad respect for u guys.. janis is a technical master.. if u guys ever want to bore your audience and have me educate u 😈🤣 let me know. I wil b your teacher ,)
What else could Devon say other than a "bad take". The number 1 kingsmover. Ironic. You will always be an inspiration Devon but you cannot beat the best guys in the sport without that extented armlock of a move.
Devon in 2008 toyed with prime John 6-0 and that 2008 John flash pinned Denis 😂 devon destroyed lupkes and lupkes destroyed both denis and john 2008 devon would break overrated 2018 prime Denis arm 2008-2012 Devon was so strong he was playing with Andrey pushkar in 2012 who was giving tough fight to denis prime Devon literally eat travis bagent arguably the best left handed puller even in the left very easily in 2011 despite getting cheated heavily and so called Denis prime struggling against Michael todd😂 I have Valid logic but they will just cry and just talk about one practice pull which was 2 sec long and Devon was out of surgery that yr (weakest version) delusional Denis fan 😂🤡
@@cirocabraldutra532 best solution yet. Thinner elbow pad by an inch and another inch on the pin pad. Would be good to see a demo of this by Coach Ray to see if this works.
The problem is with people like Todd, their straight arm is not really straight, what if there someone with their bone lock even narrower than his? That person wouldn't touch the pad with his "straight" arm
2:39 that s how micheal s arm was in the genadi match in most rounds especially the first, yet they didn t call it a pin for genadi, this shows how broken the rules are, people don t realize that unfortunately, even if someone s arm is completely open it still won t touch the pad unless your opponent stands up
Devon's been in the same position too to a point he was forced to dip under the table which Devon abuses "strategically" because first one is only a warning, and then second is a foul -- all while the opponent is completely gassing themselves trying to break someones elbow at such an awkward angle which is almost impossible unless maybe if you're Levan
The thing is Michael is actually good outside of that position. We've seen him use a press and a toproll against really high level guys successfully. It always upsets me when he acts like he is just one giant kings move. He can do whatever he wants I guess and he is known for that but I think he'd even be more successful if he used other strategies.
The Kings Move will always be that love to hate move or hate to love move… That said, I do agree that limiting the rules of this sport to simply the opening of your opponent’s joints and pinning them would be a bit more fair. Because, yes, having to overextend or break someone is not only unsafe but just kind of sad for the sacrifice of the athlete. A rule would have to be cleverly thought up on the actual height one is allowed to drop their shoulder down. Especially when the shoulder sits lower than the wrist. Maybe the WAL should carry leveling sticks to make sure they don’t drop the shoulder angle too low! 😂
@@voiceofarmwrestling Also i dont think Michael todd could hold Genadi, if Genadi took Mikes pronation away. So Mikes style is also having pronation and riser
You can beat a king's move by climbing over their hand. Nobody is going to maintain pronation and cup if they lose their hand and have no connection to table. If they somehow keep their pronation and hand high then they can hold on. Most people deal impatiently with kings moves. It isn't unfair or unbeatable.
Sorry but it is still a cancer on the sport, it's rediculous to have someone supposedly win a match when they have had their arm fully extended by their apponent which is literally the point of arm wrestling, allowing people to be underneath the table with an extended arm goes against what arm wrestling is meant to be and is horrendous for spectators. That and bias/terrible reffing are the two main reasons the sport won't become more mainstream/popular.
@flavadave86 The problem was solved with the decline humerus angle rule. Go ahead and find me any match with someone's arm straight and fully supinated and stopping a pin. You won't be able to.
@utewbd just watch almost any match with Michael todd or some of devons, the natch they were talking about in thus video with michael todd is a good example, fully straight arm.
You can argue semantics about supernation all you want but when someone's shoukders are below the table amd the arm is fully straight oelr even almost it looks rediculous and that's what kills sports in terms of growth.
@@flavadave86 Exactly, the humerus has to be in a decline angle for the shoulder to be under the table if their arm is fully straightened. Which would result in a foul. It isn't an issue.
Make the pin pads adjustable. Just before the match starts, ask the athletes to fully extend their arms while keeping the humerus flat. Then raise the pin pads to touch their hands. 💡💪🏽💪🏽
I believe there was this argument between Devon and Krasimir and the former was asking how you can technically determine where is this arm limit as it could introduce a lot of subjectivity
Im trying to play Devil’s Advocate…but removing a whole technique in arm wrestling seems like a de-evolution to the sport. From my understanding, I think the King’s move is actually beatable. Look how Ongerbaev was able to use technique and baiting to beat Michael Todd. And I feel like we aren’t giving Michael enough credit because I feel like a King’s Move like his does not work without an amazing riser (radial deviation) and without it, the King’s Move wouldn’t work. So the King’s Move is definitely more than just an elbow lock, but also a strong ass riser. So looking at it with this point of view, I don’t think it’s a good idea to remove King’s moves completely since the move is beatable if executed correctly.
@ Oh true my bad. But regardless, the “straight arm” move can still be beaten. I understand that it would be an issue if the #1 in the world relies on this technique, but that’s not the case. We will see more once MMT goes against high ranked super heavyweights, so I’m excited to see him against Ermes and hopefully Levan.
In boxing, other martial arts, one is not allowed to face away from an opponent. Among other reasons, a boxer isn't allowed to punch an opponent in the back of the head . . . so one can't avoid punches by just turning away. And if an opponent "runs" from you or leans against the ropes (Ali's rope-a-dope), one could "technically" take a position in the middle of a boxing ring . . . and the ref will demand that your opponent "engage." Why? Because it's supposed to be a fight. And so is arm-wrestling. I think of the Kings Move as the equivalent of running from a fight, turning away, leaning against the ropes, tiring out an opponent, not engaging. The Kings Move and several other anti-competitive antics in arm-wrestling is a great way to ensure it remains a very minor sport played out in bars and other small venues. If you don't make rules, athletes will continue to exploit such things.
this is so true. good comment man. i've said this for a long time, but yes indeed; the sport can never progress properly without a rule for king's move. I say once the shoulder becomes parallel with the elbow its a foul. instead of waiting for it to be in a negative angle, it should just be a foul when it becomes even.
@@humanbean3 Right! And some room to tailor a new Kings Move rule as long as: 1) it is easy to judge and not subjective; 2) and the result is appealing to an audience of non-arm-wrestler spectators. If you pulled people off the streets, they'd adjudge that the user of a Kings Move had lost the match. And rightfully so . . . if not for some really beaten up, frozen elbow joint hinges.
@bradreid6057 best comment i think I've ever seen regarding this. I've made several over the years, but this is better articulated than mine. BTW Michael todd said no one can pin him in that position now. That should tell everyone all they need to know about it having anything to do with strength. His body is as far to the other side as possible while being on the edge of the pad, his arm may not be below parallel but just like this video indicates, he's at a straight arm at that point. Of course his arm isn't going down. I'd love to see heart rate monitors on them again. I bet Michael's is consistently at least 50 beats lower than any of his opponents because he's not actually exhausting himself.
King's move is more equivalent to being knocked out and held up by the ropes the ref not calling it and your opponent having to do push ups till you slump on the ground or you wake up and knock him out
@@JohnnyJuggernaut17 I bet your comment about heart rate is about right. I think Michael is the embodiment of Archimedes' statement: "Give me a place to stand, and a lever long enough, and I will move the world." For Michael, it'd be a place to rest his elbow (a fulcrum) and the weight of his body as the force on a lever (his arm) held an inch above the pin pad. ***I truly believe the arm-wrestling community GETS why the Kings Move must be outlawed or at least the rules applying to it, greatly modified; they are just taking their time doing so. No offense to Michael, a great arm-wrestler. He's doing what most would do and it is "shaping" the sport.
Sigh... and I thought you guys knew what you were talking about... You talk about there being no more options. WRONG. You can come back up to center. Trade side position, regain your hand, climb, turn opponent palm up, etc. What happened to your guys knowledge? Come on...
@@seanlennon5986by definition, you’re just wrong. Something being unfair means that one has an advantage over another that they don’t have access to. Both people can straighten their arms if they want to. Also, that is not their point. They’re arguing that it is basically unbeatable because “there are no more options left”. The problem is that their view is flawed and only addresses taking and taking, not giving to gain somewhere else. That’s why I’m disappointed. I thought they were smarter. The reasons people lose to kings movers is that they are not strong enough to withstand their opponents pronation, and that they lack table IQ. People end up in a flop press because they can’t stay in center without losing their hand, so they give up wrist for shoulder position and side position. The problem is, if you’re not strong enough to finish in a flop, your options that are left are to give up the side and shoulder position you gained to try and regain your hand and work from there. This is why the “right” way to beat the kings move is to climb climb and climb. Basically stay in a high hook until you’ve got everything. Issue is, most people lack the hand to compete with pronation at the levels of Michael or Devon, so they resort to flop.
This is a pretty dumb argument. "I have never seen anyone get hurt in this position". 1 min later. "Only way to beat them is to break their arm". People lose in the kings move ALL THE TIME and they don't break their arm. So what happened in all those matches? No Genadi did not do everything he could do to win. Mike still had pronation and rise, that is why Genadi could not pin him. If we want to talk about arm wrestling in the simplest terms it is not to open some ones arm to straight. The simplest way to think about arm wrestling is pin your opponent at the pin pad. You should train and condition your arm to be strong in all positions... it's arm wrestling. If you want to make arm wrestling boring why not just make them sit at a table like in the old days? Ass can't leave the seat. No kings move, no press, no flop press, no top roll because it's not possible. Just sit up straight at a table and go into the hook every match. Want to talk about unfair? Get rid of steroids. That is unfair. It keeps everyone who isn't willing to die out of professional arm wrestling. There are probably many genetically gifted arm wrestlers out there who could be the best the world has ever seen but they never compete because it's completely pointless if you aren't also on steroids because you will never keep up and they aren't willing to cut years off of their life for a game like arm wrestling. #1 thing that makes a match shit it is the refs. Every 2 seconds they stop the match. Wait 5 mins for the set up and 2 seconds in they call something. 5 more mins of set up. literally JUST SAY GO!
This is why people have slowly stopped paying for armwrestling ppv matches, including myself and a few more other family members. Watching dudes straighten their arm is CHEATING.
@abel78750 Except Michael's arm was never 180 degree straight. He armwrestled within the ruleset, so don't be a clown by calling it cheating. Feel free to stop buying the PPV, your "contribution" will not be missed
Thank you , guys!!! I hope more people watch this video !!! And most important- the organisers to do something about this !!! Lest all the elite arm wrestlers vote if they are ok with this move or it should be banned !!!
How about if as well as a pin pad, you have a vertical line that cannot be crossed? Somewhere above the pin pad that stops kingsmovers running away too far. So you can force your opponent past this line to win, as well as the normal pin pad. One of the reasons the kings move is so tough to attack is because the kingsmover with their straight arm is getting so far away from the attacking persons hand. I think this sort of rule could even things out
Raise the pin pad 5cm without changing elbow pad height(or make the elbow pad correspondingly lower), and suddenly most of the king's movers are fucked. If your arm was fully extended then you lacked the power and skill, and it's no longer arm wrestling it's bone-resting. It's silly, and there are simple solutions.
its a hinge system, they can still fully extend their arm and just be at more of an angle and still bone lock it, what we need is tests to see just how far it someone can extend their arm and then pay attention that that does not happen during the match
I personally would like to see more kings move. Very few of the top arm wrestlers can actually do it successfully. If it were automatically unwinnable the top guys would all be kings movers but they aren't. The refs just need to be fast acting if the shoulder dips below parallel then stop the match immediately.
Well said. I’m really disappointed in Janis and ray here - it’s such a wooden analysis and I can’t help but feel they are part of the engin cult with this superficial strawman argument . The straight arm kings move is a desperation move, easily defeated or avoided, but it creates a trap that poor tacticians can fall into. THIS is what makes it fun. A good tactician that is technically rounded doesn’t give a shit about this stuff - they find the workaround and execute - not whine like bums. If I lose to a kings move, I’ve over committed to an inside pressure or my post is not strong enough. Answer is to go away and train harder.
Nope.. Sorry guys you're wrong here. Plenty of people have beat Mike's kingsmove, even with a fully straight arm, and they didn't break his arm. You guys need to move forward. This reminds me when people used to say toproll was cheating. Armwrestling can't just be going into a hook. The sport must evolve.
Not even Jablonski could press Michael to the pad. That being said, Levan gonna straighten Michael's arm to get the pin. Levan gonna break that arm if necessary.
One of the solution is abviously to change the rules. Taking the example of Genadi vs Mike, even though mike's hand didn't touch the pad, Genadi's hand was under mike's pin pad. Such situations must result in a win for the attacker. Another solution can be to develop a pin position above the existing pin pad, specifically for an open arm position. Or just like Janis said, educate the referees to identify a straight arm.
I like that idea. So it's like attacking the opponent pin pad and defending yours. Whether you touch your own pad, or the opponent touches (or goes centre-table underneath equivalent), you lost. The other side I'm thinking though, is if a flop wrist presser drops low and hits that depth, should that be a win?
That's a bad idea because it gives unnecessary advantage to presser. The rule is perfect as it is, there's no need to further nerf Kings Move when it is already nerfed 5 years ago with the negative humerus rule
@@CossyMangowell i think that can be ruled out if the defender is not in an open arm position. So the context here is only during an open arm position.
Exactly! I think a normal person has to see it that way.. thanks Ray&Janis! I can't watch those matches without feel sickness. Its a disgusting and unfair move has to banned from AW.
This is a bad take. You as an armwrestler need to train to beat opponent's specific style, I don't care if it's flop press, kings move, toproll, etc... that's your responsibility. You can open up kings move by breaking their pronators. Everybody was opening up MMT when he was on his losing streak. Do not dare take away the defensive part of the sport. You guys can do better than that
That's my main problem with all of this. I've seen Mike get smoked there many times. Sure, I've seen him have some long battles, where maybe he got some advantageous calls. That's on the refs/rules. But, he's been beaten in that position many times, on bigger pads, with even more outrageous positions, and none of those times required his arm to be broken. I like the shoulder/humerus rule. But don't like the idea of having someone subjectively judging what's a straight arm and what isn't during a match. The kingsmove for all the hate it receives is not some unbeatable maneuver. Take away his pronation and he's toast.
@@Armbender1085 Most as in every in my AW club, the vast majority of national tier pullers I've spoken with, and it appears most of the international / world class competitors.
@@petewest3122 “your” club probably sucks being filled with such small minded pullers. You should consider switching. Also where’s your survey and the stats you have. Ones that aren’t pulled out of your a**
I hope this continues to be a conversation. I will always say the straight arm is to arm wrestling and kick someone in the 🏀 is to MMA. It's effective, but we all agree it's wrong.
The problem with this argument is the kings move is already fouled for shoulder position. Imagine changing the rules because a few guys have truly mastered a position within the rules but then you keep changing the rules because they win. So first is was shoulder, now it’s straight arm, in 5years they will find a way complain about open arm toproll, then 10 years the top roll will be cheating. If an organization keeps giving into to rule changes that clearly go against a few athletes it will never end until those athletes are casted out entirely. Too much bias. You guys know it’s a beatable move. It’s just genadi and Kamil were too weak to beat Michael that day. If they beat him this argument wouldn’t even be a thing right now. How about that stop trying to flop the dude and get there arms and hands stronger and climb over. Ongarbayev didn’t complain. Devon didn’t complain. Revaz didn’t complain. Genadi didn’t complain their first match. But when Michael wins finally in forever everyone starts crying. Absolute joke imo. Still love you ray and Janis but this take is ridiculous. Though I’m just a memer so what do I know 😂.
@davidedb8500 Genadi won against MMT 2 years ago because Michael's riser was weak back then. MMT won this time because Genadi never took MMT's wrist. Basically it's not about bonelock but who can take whose wrist
Mike didn't do it every round against Genadi for one. In fact, he pretty much dominated Genadi all over the table after that first round, and he cracked Genadi's wrist as easily as Genadi cracked his. I think he knew he could gas Genadi, however. Love it or hate it, endurance is a strategy in any combat sport. Heck, Ali used to just lean on some guys for the first few rounds to tire them out so he could take advantage of their exhaustion late. Should he have had points taken away or given full losses because he wasn't willing to trade power with them early? Devon stopped Levan at center table in the first round of their EvW match. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. Levan couldn't do anything with him from there and his own wrist was breaking. Levan then switched to a press, Devon's arm went completely straight and it did NOT end up to Devon's advantage. In fact, Devon, Levan, and Engin all expressed that it cost Devon the remainder of his rounds because Levan pressing over the top of a straightened out arm drained Devon of everything, and the ref called it even when Devon's hand didn't touch the pad. There is no power in that position, it isn't a hard "bone-lock" that is insurmountable, and great pullers like Levan can actually make it to the detriment of an opponent trying to use it. I don't think it breaks the rules or presents an inherent advantage. If an opponent can control center against the straight arm and get over the top of it, it will hurt the straightened arm puller more than help them. Furthermore, people complained about king's movers going under the table, so someone like Mike has adapted by a.) getting stronger everywhere else, and b.) using this above-table method. Yet still people complain. Either learn how to beat it, or get off the table. That aside, I am 100% behind rules clarity. Whether we are talking in sports, games, or anything competitive. We don't all have to like the rule, but have the rules defined clearly. If the powers-that-be decide that a straight arm, as decided by an official, is a round loss, or even a foul that forces a restart, then do it. Leaving it vague in terms of "dangerous position" isn't good enough. Murky verbiage is how politicians and lawyers get away with shenanigans, right? And that isn't what we want here. Define the rules, and the players will adapt.
There is just a lot where armwrestling can still be improved, I also personally had the setup shenanigans that especially Devon always pulls, I wish there was a limit to that before you get a foul and I also wish there was a laserline from the top that shows the center of the table that the ref can activate with a footpedal for example, so we all know without a doubt where the center is, saves dumb debates.
Maybe a rule that states that if you're in a fully extended position for 5 seconds, like when a boxer gets knocked down they have a 10 count, it's a loss?
Great video! As a fan i would say to allow kingsmove just because i find it more entertaining than just a match with flashpins 😂. I hope this video will lead to some good debates
That's a nice rule because it reminds me of what Devon wants to do in freedom armwrestling where if you hold someone off the side of the table for a 3 count, then it's a win. Something tells me he wouldn't like that 3 count concept to be applied to the King's Move. lol
It doesnt make sense because kings move is just a open toproll and no armwrestling organization is going to eliminate an open toproll Stop fantasizing about unrealistic rule changes when the ruleset is already near perfect as it is
If you’d like to implement that, one way would be, to measure the angle of the extended arm of each athlete - just like you’d measure the wrist, bicep etc. It could be the referees job, to judge during the matches, if the limit has been reached, while considering the absolute error, although it would be fairly easy, to create a device, that could notify, as soon as the limit of the arm extension would be reached.
Stop crying, why take away options in the sport, if it's going to grow, you can't limit options. That's like taking the curve ball out of baseball...stop trying to limit the sport, and try to create more entertaining options. Seriously. One of the reasons the sport was stagnant is the simple mechanism from a viewing stand point, but now all the complicated mechanics being explained the past few years is making the sport more exciting. So why limit the sport. Arm wrestling is one of the last purists sports, let's not taint it like everything else. No Limit's for a reason.. WWG1WGA
@@seanlennon5986 I guess you didn't understand the analogy of the curve Ball then. Why you try to make it fair, you also possibly make it boring with no creativity..So make a choice
the sport can never progress properly without a rule for king's move. it's not "a complicated move" ffs... people dont do it because they have integrity, not because it's a "hard move" or something.. if people start training it and everyone does it the sport will be a joke. that is exactly what will happen eventually if we want people to start training armwrestling for a career like people do other sports.
From someone who competes perspective, I definitely agree with this, but from a curiosity perspective, I want to see what happens when we put someone like Levan against that move.
Great conversation! The problem is that it cannot be subjective based upon what the referee thinks he sees. Every arm wrestler has a different range of motion so this is difficult. There were times in the Michael versus Genadi match that it looked like Michael’s forearm was actually level with the pin pad, even though his hand was above it.
I think it would be incredibly hard to enforce the rule that it should be a loss when the arm "fully straightened". Perhaps in some matches it's easy to say when the arm is fully straight, but especially when some armwrestlers have f*ked up elbows that don't extend all the way, I think the line becomes very blurred. If we're going to add a new rule, it has to be precise (in the sense that "fully straight" is clearly defined for every armwrestler, especially those with messed up elbows), and it has to be easy to identify. For instance, the humerus at a decline for king's move foul is easy to identify because you can directly judge the angle. But for an arm to be fully straight, that is a different point for every armwrestler, and would be hard to identify in the middle of a match regardless of how precise your definition of a fully straightened arm that encompasses all armwrestlers biomechanical limits is.
I'm pretty new to arm wrestling, and I said this like two years ago. I think in the future, the only thing that will evolve from this is broken arms. The only reason Michael was able to beat Genadi was because of the king's move.
The kings move like any move is beatable, just win hand control and rise over it - Devon clearly has shown how it is beatable. Arm wrestling is about muscle AND structure and it's not fair to ban a very beatable move just because someone else doesn't have it up their arsenal.
I agree, also Ray said "if it s one degree less than straight it s still bs", but where s the limit. We cannot make this stuff up. Also, there are many different people with different structures and different degrees of bone locks, it s part of the game
@@samuaathere’s nothing straight arm about a kings move though. Its a complete embarrassment that these guys don’t understand what a kings move is but speak authoritatively for all of arm wrestling…
Some people's arms are fully extended at like a 160 degree angle. Like devon for example. So u'll have to measure each competitors max extension and judge them by that.
Exactly, the individual physiological differences make this so difficult to enforce. Can't stand what Michael does, but I don't know what the real solution is there.
Aren’t most moves where you’re giving up position in a particular angle done so with the aim of more easily achieving another angle? For example, in the flop-press, you give up wrist flection / cupping to more easily get pronation and shoulder position. (I’m not saying if you kick your wrist back, you’re guaranteed to get pronation and shoulder position). We all know the flop-press is a beatable move. If we look at someone like Jerry, who’s arguably got the best flop in the game, he’ll intentionally give up his wrist. Taking his wrist and fighting his cupping, when he’s not fighting you there, is a mistake because it helps him get into his position. Jerry wants you to top roll him. Levan* took away Jerry’s ability to get to his position by grabbing low on his wrist in the set up and denying Jerry access to his pronation. *of course, levan is leagues stronger than any mortal, so doing this to Jerry is easier said than done. But my point here is that, there was a tactical adjustment made to best combat the move. Can tactical adjustments not be made against a kings move? The kings move gives up shoulder position and elbow flection for pronation and rise. Isn’t fighting for shoulder position and elbow flection is a mistake against a kings move? As for the bone lock issue, yes, a straightened arm cannot go down any more without breaking. Is a similar story not also true for someone in a defensive hook position where their arm is externally rotated well outside their chest? The only way to bring someone more sideways is to break their arm. In the video they said you can still extend the elbow. Would the equivalent for the kings move not be rising over the kings-movers hand? I’m not sold that rules have to be changed at all. I don’t think a straight arm rule would be well received as it could lead to a lot of subjectivity in calls. Adjusting the height of the pin pad to match the fully straightened position of the arm is an interesting thought.
Please address the leveraging off the back of the pad which is so exploitive in the kings move. You're using the table to absorb the opponent's pressure which directly returns to him. It is like making your opponent have to pin a brick wall. This goes beyond having to "break your opponent", this is breaking yourself and the table. Therefore this offense should be a LOSING POSITION penalty. Not to mention, this exploit forbids the opponent to move forwards as it will cause you to elbow foul. It is utterly horrific of an exploit to the game.
I completely agree with you! As soon as the arm becomes straight or it’s anatomically clear that this is the maximum extension, the match should be stopped and a foul should be issued. This way, the sport will become much fairer. 🤝🏻🙌🏻
I agree completely that there should be some kind of straight arm foul/rule that needs to be enforced. And by straight I don't mean 180 degrees but I mean max level of extention that the specific athlete can achieve. Nice that you did a video on the subject because, right now in the sport, there are very few people being vocal about it and that highlight that issue
Oldest rule in armwrestling is not open arm. It is hand to the table! Stop trying to ban or change rule for techniques you are bad at. Learn how to beat it and become a better armwrestle instead. You dont see Devon whining about flopress. He study it and try to find ways to beat it Stop be cry babys and take away rule shoulder under table
Yes. The key is to not go balls to the wall immediately to try to flash-pin. Rather stay at center and gain complete hand control and then go sideways.
@@seanlennon5986 I dont think so. Why do you think its unfair? Sure genadi lost, but Devon won easily over Mike. Its just a mather of understanding techniques
I agree, a straight arm is a defeated arm. Maybe there should be a time limit of how long an arm is allowed to be open and if someone’s arm is open beyond that time it’s considered by the ref as a defeated arm. Too many use this position to tire out their opponent and to me in my mind has always been a cop out. I also think matches wouldn’t be so long, which would be nice. I also think arguing with the ref prior to the word Go being said, should warrant a penalty foul. Follow how John B. maintains a respectful example at the table; great “ table manners “ if you will! Arguing with the ref prior before the match should not be aloud. Allowing this makes so much needless drama to an already long match. Just my 5 cents ( 2cents + inflation is 5 cents)😂lol!
Am sorry guys but it's about winning not suffocating the sport with stifling rules to suit your agenda against a move yous don't like is pretty sad to see imo.
If you can straight your opponent arm you have won. Only the rule says you didn't because you haven't touched the pad. Rules should not prevent a legitimate win.
Totally agree. Straight/opened arm/bone lock should = loss or at least a foul. MMT has mastered the angle and position of having a completely straight (as straight as his gets) arm without going below parallel. There's basically nothing you can do about it besides break his arm (realistically impossible in that position) or try to make it too painful. It's armrestling, the stronger arm/hand should win, not the biggest masochist with the best bone lock. I also feel like MMT gets away with elbow off the back too much with the excuse of "my elbow shape is weird", your elbow doesn't go 20% up your tricep, no matter how weird it is. Refs should put marker on the exact tip of the elbow and not let that go off the pad. The rules need to change or eventually we'll end up in clown matches with both guys just tug of warring with straight arms because it really is the most unfair move once you condition yourself for the pain.
I agree but Michael can still make a mistake going for the pin, losing his hand and the match, as the King's Move is much harder without hand control. They can also fight in the center, not just rely on the bone lock. But still, it makes matches more interesting and entertaining.
I think that the element of having the kings move in our game is an evolvement of the sport which leads to new strengths needed to close matches which makes the sport overall more interesting In matches that an opponent uses kings move you could return to mid position drag back and hit again + you could have more pressing power (exercises like kamil/morozov is using) Of course if you just try to brainlessly power through like genadi did against Michael you gas out and loose I just think that the game now requires more table IQ and different strengths I even hope more styles and elements will appear because it will just make our sport more complicated and interesting with a higher variety P.S. both athlete and a fan of arm wrestling
Yes. The key is to not go balls to the wall immediately to try to flash-pin. Rather stay at center and gain complete hand control and then go sideways.
Michael Todd explained it very well in his recent review video for his Genadi match in round 1. He openly admitted he would have been pinned earlier had he not made Genadi's wrist go lower as well as turning his wrist to give himself an extra half inch distance from the pad. Without those two things happening, it would have been a pin. Despite that, Genadi still managed to pin him at times because he managed to keep his own wrist height in the strap. That's something not mentioned here. The difference in wrist height is a big factor, and Michael Todd's ability to swing the wrist position in his favor *before* or during the king's move position should be discussed too. People want to say MT's arm was straight, but it wasn't until Genadi's surges got him the pin. That inch of difference between is such a small window.
Seems unfair, but people should just learn to beat the pronation and rise! Train your pronation to be stronger than Mike's. Have a strong enough Cup to contain him. No one is talking about how strong Mike's lifts are. Who can outlift Mike? Perhaps Levan or some of the top 3.
I am just a viewer. Some deeper thoughts. Does hand control matter at all in a pin? what is a pin? If you can maintain full hand control should that mean you shouldn't be pinned? the size of your triceps and hand control will play a big part in how far above the pin pad you are. I believe a pin is about arm control though the hand will play a part in getting there. Once you loose full arm control you are pinned regardless of your level of hand control.
Ребят это по факту читерство.и полностью согласен с вами.Это не красит наш спорт.а последователей этой борьбы будет больше когда поймут как это работает.Надо вносить в правила ПРЯМАЯ РУКА= проигрыш!
It seems we already have a solution. The pin pads should be adjustable. Before the match the referee asks to straighten the arm and adjust the pin pad accordingly. Beautiful and simple. ❤
100% agree. You can even see in the face of the kingsmover, he is not making so much effort and the other person (usually stronger) is struggling with all his life, cause its bone to bone
also and perhaps the most important part is they get to use their forearm as the fulcrum on the pad. that's ridiculous. your elbow should be the base. it takes very little strength if your rest on your forearm and in a hammer curl position.
exactly !!!!! perfectly said. It doesnt take much to kings move cause it requires way less effort and isn't taxing. Automatically. if someone has gotten you in the position that requires you to kings move it clearly means they are stronger
@nazmitt4510 Do you guys realize that you're just hating on defensive aspect of armwrestling? You can do the same with defensive hook where you hold high and rest with your shoulder turned in to support the hook (i.e. Larratt, Saigov, etc...) The whole idea is to bleed your opponent out while you exert way less effort.
I mean, if it's so impossible to best then why isnt michael todd the best in the world? How did devon beat him so easy? For that to happen it must be because of a counter
4:54 no disrespect to you ,but he didn't do everything, thing is that genadi needed to get hand control and rise up knuckle and he didn't had that . That move make everyone get smarter and stronger
To a viewer it also seems that in the kings move the elbow isn't really on the pad even. I mean sure the area between arm and forearm sort of is, but the elbow bone isn't and sometimes those don't seem to get called. That doesn't seem to be the case with Mike though.
That straight arm kings move is not arm wrestling. I don’t care what anyone says. Michael Todd claims it’s not a bone lock. He’s lying. However, no one was complaining when Michael was losing all those matches…
I think the better solution would be to focus on shoulder positioning instead of is the arm straight. I think you should not be able to turn your shoulders past square towards your own pin pad which would necessitate a defense where your arm stays flexed. Any thoughts?
@@BenTheBoogiethat’s literally the most basic strategy and basic move in armwrestling. Just pulling to the side in the strap. That’s the least concern in armwrestling there could possibly be lol
This makes absolutely 0 sense. The flop is the riskiest move to pull off. Its compromises your hand and wrist immediately which if you have no idea what you’re doing can lead to a shattered arm within a second. There’s no bone lock there at all.
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT “kings move”. Our take if your arm is straight you Lose the match.
Sport is about skill as well not just muscle strength. And skill is something you work hard through training and technique so as long as both parties have the same opportunity then it’s fair game
This is already a rule (at least in IFA, perhaps WAF is lacking it right now).
Absolutely-outstretched arm should be a loss- you shouldn’t be allowed to play see saw with the angles. I agree with Krasi.
The issue is, some guys still have a bend position, despite having straightened out their arm as much as possible.
@@robby12320 yep, Devon and MMT have those bends. Far as I see it, on that 2nd match with Levan, Devon was 1. Fully outstretched 2. Under the table, and 3. His arm was at a side and open angle trying to get as much away from the pin pad as possible. If you’re going to do that, then the opponent should absolutely be allowed to cross center line to press down on your arm. It just becomes something other than arm wrestling at that point.
Id say bad take.
Before i was a kings mover, i grew up in the sport in the same province as crazy george. I have heard many people who dont understand the move complain about it to no end..over the last 30 years. the move is absolutely beatable. U are not out of options.. u are out of your favorite options. Let me clearly tell the people who have an issue with the kings move - u need to adapt. U need to find a way thru the move.. there are many ways. Saying there is no way no option just tells me that u have not taken the time to explore all the options. U can say you have fallen into any mives trap.. fall into a great press.. great flop great hook great anything. U r in their game. The argument about straight isnt really true, but to counter we could flip it and say the press cant get unblocked.. armwrestling is an art, a sport, a fight. Any attempt to shink is to move us toward powerlifting, which, in my opinion is not the true flavor of the sport.
Lastly to restate. U r losing against a kings move basicly because u have lost flexion of wrist and rise. U have lost the ability to regrip.. work on that.
The rules in place now.. i personally would push the other way, but i think the compromise is ok. No need to add more rules to target a single option in armwrestling which is a balance for so many things.
Ive got mad respect for u guys.. janis is a technical master.. if u guys ever want to bore your audience and have me educate u 😈🤣 let me know. I wil b your teacher ,)
What else could Devon say other than a "bad take". The number 1 kingsmover. Ironic. You will always be an inspiration Devon but you cannot beat the best guys in the sport without that extented armlock of a move.
@@devlarratt king is here👑
@@richsly99 Devon literally has beaten without kings move even flash pin everyone except levan he is #2 for a reason 🤡
Devon in 2008 toyed with prime John 6-0 and that 2008 John flash pinned Denis 😂 devon destroyed lupkes and lupkes destroyed both denis and john 2008 devon would break overrated 2018 prime Denis arm 2008-2012 Devon was so strong he was playing with Andrey pushkar in 2012 who was giving tough fight to denis prime Devon literally eat travis bagent arguably the best left handed puller even in the left very easily in 2011 despite getting cheated heavily and so called Denis prime struggling against Michael todd😂 I have Valid logic but they will just cry and just talk about one practice pull which was 2 sec long and Devon was out of surgery that yr (weakest version) delusional Denis fan 😂🤡
Need more of this discussion, also great break down Devon.
3:56 Michael Toad against Ghana Dicaquinia
😂😂
The easiest solution is to lower the elbow pads or rise the pin pads. So, a straight arm position will always touch the pin pad.
My thought as well
That s the easiest and best solution
@@cirocabraldutra532 best solution yet. Thinner elbow pad by an inch and another inch on the pin pad. Would be good to see a demo of this by Coach Ray to see if this works.
Absolutely!
The problem is with people like Todd, their straight arm is not really straight, what if there someone with their bone lock even narrower than his? That person wouldn't touch the pad with his "straight" arm
2:39 that s how micheal s arm was in the genadi match in most rounds especially the first, yet they didn t call it a pin for genadi, this shows how broken the rules are, people don t realize that unfortunately, even if someone s arm is completely open it still won t touch the pad unless your opponent stands up
Exactly and michael dosent have full range of motion with arm being open he always hanging under the table with his arm as extended as it can be lol
Devon's been in the same position too to a point he was forced to dip under the table which Devon abuses "strategically" because first one is only a warning, and then second is a foul -- all while the opponent is completely gassing themselves trying to break someones elbow at such an awkward angle which is almost impossible unless maybe if you're Levan
The thing is Michael is actually good outside of that position. We've seen him use a press and a toproll against really high level guys successfully. It always upsets me when he acts like he is just one giant kings move. He can do whatever he wants I guess and he is known for that but I think he'd even be more successful if he used other strategies.
you can make them stand up if you're strong enough. Genadi was not strong enough to make michael todd stand up that day. End of story.
genadi needs stronger wrist. Levan beat devon easily and didnt complain at all.
Its funny when MMT says he’s trying his ass off but his face is completely unfazed
High quality content. No word salad, no mambo jumbo, straight to the point, expert advice, still very happy this is free to the public. 🏆
we pay enough tax, of course this is free
Before You comment watch the full video. Then give your thoughts on the subject!
Best Workout For Arm Wrestling With Barbell Or Dumbell Or Resistance Band plss😢😢😢
Don't forget to pin Devon Laratt comment as soon as he comments 😁😁😁
Against yotube rules. You need to angrily react then move to the next video.
The Kings Move will always be that love to hate move or hate to love move… That said, I do agree that limiting the rules of this sport to simply the opening of your opponent’s joints and pinning them would be a bit more fair. Because, yes, having to overextend or break someone is not only unsafe but just kind of sad for the sacrifice of the athlete. A rule would have to be cleverly thought up on the actual height one is allowed to drop their shoulder down. Especially when the shoulder sits lower than the wrist. Maybe the WAL should carry leveling sticks to make sure they don’t drop the shoulder angle too low! 😂
@@voiceofarmwrestling Also i dont think Michael todd could hold Genadi, if Genadi took Mikes pronation away. So Mikes style is also having pronation and riser
You can beat a king's move by climbing over their hand. Nobody is going to maintain pronation and cup if they lose their hand and have no connection to table. If they somehow keep their pronation and hand high then they can hold on.
Most people deal impatiently with kings moves. It isn't unfair or unbeatable.
Sorry but it is still a cancer on the sport, it's rediculous to have someone supposedly win a match when they have had their arm fully extended by their apponent which is literally the point of arm wrestling, allowing people to be underneath the table with an extended arm goes against what arm wrestling is meant to be and is horrendous for spectators. That and bias/terrible reffing are the two main reasons the sport won't become more mainstream/popular.
@flavadave86 The problem was solved with the decline humerus angle rule. Go ahead and find me any match with someone's arm straight and fully supinated and stopping a pin. You won't be able to.
@utewbd just watch almost any match with Michael todd or some of devons, the natch they were talking about in thus video with michael todd is a good example, fully straight arm.
You can argue semantics about supernation all you want but when someone's shoukders are below the table amd the arm is fully straight oelr even almost it looks rediculous and that's what kills sports in terms of growth.
@@flavadave86 Exactly, the humerus has to be in a decline angle for the shoulder to be under the table if their arm is fully straightened. Which would result in a foul. It isn't an issue.
Make the pin pads adjustable. Just before the match starts, ask the athletes to fully extend their arms while keeping the humerus flat. Then raise the pin pads to touch their hands. 💡💪🏽💪🏽
Great idea
Melhor ideia
Not bad
bad idea, if you hook for exemple you will be disadvantaged
Good idea but would make table much more costly.
I believe there was this argument between Devon and Krasimir and the former was asking how you can technically determine where is this arm limit as it could introduce a lot of subjectivity
100% agree. If we want the sport to become mainstream it is impossible if we don't have a rule about that. Straightened arm = loss.
If the attacker can keep the defense arm straight for 3-5 seconds then its a pin
That's actually a good idea I think
Yeah Mike is a great guy, but i cant stand that straight arm position, it needs to be changed, totally unfair.
Im trying to play Devil’s Advocate…but removing a whole technique in arm wrestling seems like a de-evolution to the sport. From my understanding, I think the King’s move is actually beatable. Look how Ongerbaev was able to use technique and baiting to beat Michael Todd. And I feel like we aren’t giving Michael enough credit because I feel like a King’s Move like his does not work without an amazing riser (radial deviation) and without it, the King’s Move wouldn’t work. So the King’s Move is definitely more than just an elbow lock, but also a strong ass riser. So looking at it with this point of view, I don’t think it’s a good idea to remove King’s moves completely since the move is beatable if executed correctly.
"WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT “kings move”. Our take if your arm is straight you Lose the match." - ray posted this in the comments
@ Oh true my bad. But regardless, the “straight arm” move can still be beaten. I understand that it would be an issue if the #1 in the world relies on this technique, but that’s not the case. We will see more once MMT goes against high ranked super heavyweights, so I’m excited to see him against Ermes and hopefully Levan.
I absolutely agree
In boxing, other martial arts, one is not allowed to face away from an opponent. Among other reasons, a boxer isn't allowed to punch an opponent in the back of the head . . . so one can't avoid punches by just turning away. And if an opponent "runs" from you or leans against the ropes (Ali's rope-a-dope), one could "technically" take a position in the middle of a boxing ring . . . and the ref will demand that your opponent "engage." Why? Because it's supposed to be a fight. And so is arm-wrestling. I think of the Kings Move as the equivalent of running from a fight, turning away, leaning against the ropes, tiring out an opponent, not engaging. The Kings Move and several other anti-competitive antics in arm-wrestling is a great way to ensure it remains a very minor sport played out in bars and other small venues. If you don't make rules, athletes will continue to exploit such things.
this is so true. good comment man. i've said this for a long time, but yes indeed; the sport can never progress properly without a rule for king's move. I say once the shoulder becomes parallel with the elbow its a foul. instead of waiting for it to be in a negative angle, it should just be a foul when it becomes even.
@@humanbean3 Right! And some room to tailor a new Kings Move rule as long as: 1) it is easy to judge and not subjective; 2) and the result is appealing to an audience of non-arm-wrestler spectators. If you pulled people off the streets, they'd adjudge that the user of a Kings Move had lost the match. And rightfully so . . . if not for some really beaten up, frozen elbow joint hinges.
@bradreid6057 best comment i think I've ever seen regarding this. I've made several over the years, but this is better articulated than mine. BTW Michael todd said no one can pin him in that position now. That should tell everyone all they need to know about it having anything to do with strength. His body is as far to the other side as possible while being on the edge of the pad, his arm may not be below parallel but just like this video indicates, he's at a straight arm at that point. Of course his arm isn't going down. I'd love to see heart rate monitors on them again. I bet Michael's is consistently at least 50 beats lower than any of his opponents because he's not actually exhausting himself.
King's move is more equivalent to being knocked out and held up by the ropes the ref not calling it and your opponent having to do push ups till you slump on the ground or you wake up and knock him out
@@JohnnyJuggernaut17 I bet your comment about heart rate is about right. I think Michael is the embodiment of Archimedes' statement: "Give me a place to stand, and a lever long enough, and I will move the world." For Michael, it'd be a place to rest his elbow (a fulcrum) and the weight of his body as the force on a lever (his arm) held an inch above the pin pad. ***I truly believe the arm-wrestling community GETS why the Kings Move must be outlawed or at least the rules applying to it, greatly modified; they are just taking their time doing so. No offense to Michael, a great arm-wrestler. He's doing what most would do and it is "shaping" the sport.
Sigh... and I thought you guys knew what you were talking about...
You talk about there being no more options. WRONG. You can come back up to center. Trade side position, regain your hand, climb, turn opponent palm up, etc. What happened to your guys knowledge? Come on...
Thats not the point, the point is a straight arm is not a fair position.
@@seanlennon5986by definition, you’re just wrong. Something being unfair means that one has an advantage over another that they don’t have access to. Both people can straighten their arms if they want to.
Also, that is not their point. They’re arguing that it is basically unbeatable because “there are no more options left”. The problem is that their view is flawed and only addresses taking and taking, not giving to gain somewhere else. That’s why I’m disappointed. I thought they were smarter.
The reasons people lose to kings movers is that they are not strong enough to withstand their opponents pronation, and that they lack table IQ. People end up in a flop press because they can’t stay in center without losing their hand, so they give up wrist for shoulder position and side position. The problem is, if you’re not strong enough to finish in a flop, your options that are left are to give up the side and shoulder position you gained to try and regain your hand and work from there.
This is why the “right” way to beat the kings move is to climb climb and climb. Basically stay in a high hook until you’ve got everything. Issue is, most people lack the hand to compete with pronation at the levels of Michael or Devon, so they resort to flop.
This is a pretty dumb argument. "I have never seen anyone get hurt in this position". 1 min later. "Only way to beat them is to break their arm". People lose in the kings move ALL THE TIME and they don't break their arm. So what happened in all those matches?
No Genadi did not do everything he could do to win. Mike still had pronation and rise, that is why Genadi could not pin him.
If we want to talk about arm wrestling in the simplest terms it is not to open some ones arm to straight. The simplest way to think about arm wrestling is pin your opponent at the pin pad.
You should train and condition your arm to be strong in all positions... it's arm wrestling.
If you want to make arm wrestling boring why not just make them sit at a table like in the old days? Ass can't leave the seat. No kings move, no press, no flop press, no top roll because it's not possible. Just sit up straight at a table and go into the hook every match.
Want to talk about unfair? Get rid of steroids. That is unfair. It keeps everyone who isn't willing to die out of professional arm wrestling. There are probably many genetically gifted arm wrestlers out there who could be the best the world has ever seen but they never compete because it's completely pointless if you aren't also on steroids because you will never keep up and they aren't willing to cut years off of their life for a game like arm wrestling.
#1 thing that makes a match shit it is the refs. Every 2 seconds they stop the match. Wait 5 mins for the set up and 2 seconds in they call something. 5 more mins of set up. literally JUST SAY GO!
Very wisely spoken
This is why people have slowly stopped paying for armwrestling ppv matches, including myself and a few more other family members. Watching dudes straighten their arm is CHEATING.
@abel78750 no, it's beautiful
@abel78750 Except Michael's arm was never 180 degree straight. He armwrestled within the ruleset, so don't be a clown by calling it cheating. Feel free to stop buying the PPV, your "contribution" will not be missed
Just say go?! Its easier to say it as a spectator being in with 30$ payperview. Not so easy when you have 50k at stake as a competitor.
Thank you , guys!!! I hope more people watch this video !!! And most important- the organisers to do something about this !!! Lest all the elite arm wrestlers vote if they are ok with this move or it should be banned !!!
How about if as well as a pin pad, you have a vertical line that cannot be crossed? Somewhere above the pin pad that stops kingsmovers running away too far. So you can force your opponent past this line to win, as well as the normal pin pad. One of the reasons the kings move is so tough to attack is because the kingsmover with their straight arm is getting so far away from the attacking persons hand. I think this sort of rule could even things out
That might change the game too much to the point where it might be easier to push someone through the vertical line than pin them.
Raise the pin pad 5cm without changing elbow pad height(or make the elbow pad correspondingly lower), and suddenly most of the king's movers are fucked. If your arm was fully extended then you lacked the power and skill, and it's no longer arm wrestling it's bone-resting. It's silly, and there are simple solutions.
its a hinge system, they can still fully extend their arm and just be at more of an angle and still bone lock it, what we need is tests to see just how far it someone can extend their arm and then pay attention that that does not happen during the match
I personally would like to see more kings move. Very few of the top arm wrestlers can actually do it successfully. If it were automatically unwinnable the top guys would all be kings movers but they aren't. The refs just need to be fast acting if the shoulder dips below parallel then stop the match immediately.
Well said. I’m really disappointed in Janis and ray here - it’s such a wooden analysis and I can’t help but feel they are part of the engin cult with this superficial strawman argument . The straight arm kings move is a desperation move, easily defeated or avoided, but it creates a trap that poor tacticians can fall into. THIS is what makes it fun. A good tactician that is technically rounded doesn’t give a shit about this stuff - they find the workaround and execute - not whine like bums. If I lose to a kings move, I’ve over committed to an inside pressure or my post is not strong enough. Answer is to go away and train harder.
Is for cheaters and weak armw😂
Nope.. Sorry guys you're wrong here. Plenty of people have beat Mike's kingsmove, even with a fully straight arm, and they didn't break his arm. You guys need to move forward. This reminds me when people used to say toproll was cheating. Armwrestling can't just be going into a hook. The sport must evolve.
Rise the pin pads
Not even Jablonski could press Michael to the pad. That being said, Levan gonna straighten Michael's arm to get the pin. Levan gonna break that arm if necessary.
And some how John and Ermes
did dispute having weaker presses
One of the solution is abviously to change the rules.
Taking the example of Genadi vs Mike, even though mike's hand didn't touch the pad, Genadi's hand was under mike's pin pad. Such situations must result in a win for the attacker.
Another solution can be to develop a pin position above the existing pin pad, specifically for an open arm position.
Or just like Janis said, educate the referees to identify a straight arm.
I like that idea. So it's like attacking the opponent pin pad and defending yours. Whether you touch your own pad, or the opponent touches (or goes centre-table underneath equivalent), you lost. The other side I'm thinking though, is if a flop wrist presser drops low and hits that depth, should that be a win?
That's a bad idea because it gives unnecessary advantage to presser.
The rule is perfect as it is, there's no need to further nerf Kings Move when it is already nerfed 5 years ago with the negative humerus rule
It was a 3-2 match... if it's blatantly impossible to beat and cheating you wouldn't have his matches going 5 rounds...
@@TimothyJ.Lochhead yeah that is something to consider too
@@CossyMangowell i think that can be ruled out if the defender is not in an open arm position.
So the context here is only during an open arm position.
Exactly! I think a normal person has to see it that way.. thanks Ray&Janis!
I can't watch those matches without feel sickness. Its a disgusting and unfair move has to banned from AW.
This is a bad take. You as an armwrestler need to train to beat opponent's specific style, I don't care if it's flop press, kings move, toproll, etc... that's your responsibility. You can open up kings move by breaking their pronators. Everybody was opening up MMT when he was on his losing streak.
Do not dare take away the defensive part of the sport. You guys can do better than that
That's my main problem with all of this. I've seen Mike get smoked there many times. Sure, I've seen him have some long battles, where maybe he got some advantageous calls. That's on the refs/rules.
But, he's been beaten in that position many times, on bigger pads, with even more outrageous positions, and none of those times required his arm to be broken. I like the shoulder/humerus rule. But don't like the idea of having someone subjectively judging what's a straight arm and what isn't during a match. The kingsmove for all the hate it receives is not some unbeatable maneuver. Take away his pronation and he's toast.
Well done guys, I agree 100% as most do. Thanks for making this video.
Bro what did you just say😂? Come again @@Armbender1085
@@Armbender1085 Most as in every in my AW club, the vast majority of national tier pullers I've spoken with, and it appears most of the international / world class competitors.
@@petewest3122 “your” club probably sucks being filled with such small minded pullers. You should consider switching. Also where’s your survey and the stats you have. Ones that aren’t pulled out of your a**
I hope this continues to be a conversation. I will always say the straight arm is to arm wrestling and kick someone in the 🏀 is to MMA. It's effective, but we all agree it's wrong.
The equivalent in mma is more like holding onto the cage to prevent a takedown.
Devon and Michael cheat when competing, and now Devon son is also cheating.
they already said in the video that it's not cheating because they fight within the rule, you don't even listen to the video before commenting...
@ You know they need to cheat to keep competing, but is cheating
@@Jobfox645 i mean you clearly have a reading / listening disorder and i'm not qualified to help with, please seek a professional.
If you dont like the move, your just not good enough of an armwrestler.
Great video guys!
The purpose of AW is pinning your opponent. Whatever prevents that from happening is completely irrelevant and is an excuse.
The problem with this argument is the kings move is already fouled for shoulder position. Imagine changing the rules because a few guys have truly mastered a position within the rules but then you keep changing the rules because they win. So first is was shoulder, now it’s straight arm, in 5years they will find a way complain about open arm toproll, then 10 years the top roll will be cheating. If an organization keeps giving into to rule changes that clearly go against a few athletes it will never end until those athletes are casted out entirely. Too much bias. You guys know it’s a beatable move. It’s just genadi and Kamil were too weak to beat Michael that day. If they beat him this argument wouldn’t even be a thing right now. How about that stop trying to flop the dude and get there arms and hands stronger and climb over. Ongarbayev didn’t complain. Devon didn’t complain. Revaz didn’t complain. Genadi didn’t complain their first match. But when Michael wins finally in forever everyone starts crying. Absolute joke imo. Still love you ray and Janis but this take is ridiculous. Though I’m just a memer so what do I know 😂.
Rules must change. Arms extended to the maximum and still unpinnable because of the bone is unfair
MMT did not deserve that win agaisnt genadi at all
@@ktos25what about Devon?
@@BullyMaguire357 Devon's win against Dave Chaffee in WAL should definitely not be considered a win, but then Devon more recently dominated Dave.
@davidedb8500 Genadi won against MMT 2 years ago because Michael's riser was weak back then. MMT won this time because Genadi never took MMT's wrist. Basically it's not about bonelock but who can take whose wrist
@@CossyMango mmt won because of the bonelock
Mike didn't do it every round against Genadi for one. In fact, he pretty much dominated Genadi all over the table after that first round, and he cracked Genadi's wrist as easily as Genadi cracked his. I think he knew he could gas Genadi, however. Love it or hate it, endurance is a strategy in any combat sport. Heck, Ali used to just lean on some guys for the first few rounds to tire them out so he could take advantage of their exhaustion late. Should he have had points taken away or given full losses because he wasn't willing to trade power with them early?
Devon stopped Levan at center table in the first round of their EvW match. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. Levan couldn't do anything with him from there and his own wrist was breaking. Levan then switched to a press, Devon's arm went completely straight and it did NOT end up to Devon's advantage. In fact, Devon, Levan, and Engin all expressed that it cost Devon the remainder of his rounds because Levan pressing over the top of a straightened out arm drained Devon of everything, and the ref called it even when Devon's hand didn't touch the pad. There is no power in that position, it isn't a hard "bone-lock" that is insurmountable, and great pullers like Levan can actually make it to the detriment of an opponent trying to use it.
I don't think it breaks the rules or presents an inherent advantage. If an opponent can control center against the straight arm and get over the top of it, it will hurt the straightened arm puller more than help them. Furthermore, people complained about king's movers going under the table, so someone like Mike has adapted by a.) getting stronger everywhere else, and b.) using this above-table method. Yet still people complain. Either learn how to beat it, or get off the table.
That aside, I am 100% behind rules clarity. Whether we are talking in sports, games, or anything competitive. We don't all have to like the rule, but have the rules defined clearly. If the powers-that-be decide that a straight arm, as decided by an official, is a round loss, or even a foul that forces a restart, then do it. Leaving it vague in terms of "dangerous position" isn't good enough. Murky verbiage is how politicians and lawyers get away with shenanigans, right? And that isn't what we want here. Define the rules, and the players will adapt.
Devon did shit to Levan in the first round. Easy 12-0
Stop blowing Devon dic so hard
There is just a lot where armwrestling can still be improved, I also personally had the setup shenanigans that especially Devon always pulls, I wish there was a limit to that before you get a foul and I also wish there was a laserline from the top that shows the center of the table that the ref can activate with a footpedal for example, so we all know without a doubt where the center is, saves dumb debates.
Devon fanboys are the worst. He gets away with everything
Sounds like it should be treated like a submission, in MMA if your opponent has no options left the ref calls the fight.
Maybe a rule that states that if you're in a fully extended position for 5 seconds, like when a boxer gets knocked down they have a 10 count, it's a loss?
Bro... I literally just commented this and kept checking comments to find the SAME IDEA!
@@andysouthardmusic simply no, allows too much subjectivity in refereeing. Stop trying to fantasize about impractical new rules
@@CossyMango LOL
More like takedown in wrestling...after all its arm wrestling...you have got a point.
Great video! As a fan i would say to allow kingsmove just because i find it more entertaining than just a match with flashpins 😂. I hope this video will lead to some good debates
just have a new rule where if you get somebody in the Kings move they have a 5 second count to get out of that position or it counts as a pin
maybe not for the kings move in general but for the stretched arm position
Or a point or two. Like a near fall in American folkstyle wrestling
Agreed
That's a nice rule because it reminds me of what Devon wants to do in freedom armwrestling where if you hold someone off the side of the table for a 3 count, then it's a win. Something tells me he wouldn't like that 3 count concept to be applied to the King's Move. lol
It doesnt make sense because kings move is just a open toproll and no armwrestling organization is going to eliminate an open toproll
Stop fantasizing about unrealistic rule changes when the ruleset is already near perfect as it is
LOVE michael todd! but i agree, limit the kings move...
Totally agree, and I think it would be good for the sport of armwrestling to add this rule to the rulebook.
If you’d like to implement that, one way would be, to measure the angle of the extended arm of each athlete - just like you’d measure the wrist, bicep etc. It could be the referees job, to judge during the matches, if the limit has been reached, while considering the absolute error, although it would be fairly easy, to create a device, that could notify, as soon as the limit of the arm extension would be reached.
I agree with this video 100%
Stop crying, why take away options in the sport, if it's going to grow, you can't limit options. That's like taking the curve ball out of baseball...stop trying to limit the sport, and try to create more entertaining options. Seriously. One of the reasons the sport was stagnant is the simple mechanism from a viewing stand point, but now all the complicated mechanics being explained the past few years is making the sport more exciting. So why limit the sport. Arm wrestling is one of the last purists sports, let's not taint it like everything else. No Limit's for a reason.. WWG1WGA
Sport needs to be fair, or people will not watch it. So this needs a rule change, the logic can't be denied.
@@seanlennon5986 I guess you didn't understand the analogy of the curve Ball then. Why you try to make it fair, you also possibly make it boring with no creativity..So make a choice
@seanlennon5986 if you want it fair, either everyone be juiced up or no juice that's the question, that question is more important than kings move.
the sport can never progress properly without a rule for king's move. it's not "a complicated move" ffs... people dont do it because they have integrity, not because it's a "hard move" or something.. if people start training it and everyone does it the sport will be a joke. that is exactly what will happen eventually if we want people to start training armwrestling for a career like people do other sports.
this video made me hate michael toad so much more
100% agree. MMT makes armwrestling ugly and questionable. Under the table is truly pathetic.
ita terrible, devo fanboys are the most unbearable clowns to exist. in their eyes devon can do no wrong. Kingsmove should always be banned
From someone who competes perspective, I definitely agree with this, but from a curiosity perspective, I want to see what happens when we put someone like Levan against that move.
@@A_Mystery_Man I genuinely believe levan will break that arm since he now has a press too 😂
@@ktos25 I think he'll hoist Michael from up under the table with his press before it breaks tbh lol
@@A_Mystery_Man but Yh ur right. Curious to see levan against a kingsmover like MMT
Great conversation! The problem is that it cannot be subjective based upon what the referee thinks he sees. Every arm wrestler has a different range of motion so this is difficult. There were times in the Michael versus Genadi match that it looked like Michael’s forearm was actually level with the pin pad, even though his hand was above it.
Straight arm is absolutely unfair, devon crack morozov's wrist in a straight arm position thats not fair
king move has to be out of
I know five different ways to beat a king's move.
Gotta love the Ottawa High Hookers! You guys are great.
I think it would be incredibly hard to enforce the rule that it should be a loss when the arm "fully straightened". Perhaps in some matches it's easy to say when the arm is fully straight, but especially when some armwrestlers have f*ked up elbows that don't extend all the way, I think the line becomes very blurred. If we're going to add a new rule, it has to be precise (in the sense that "fully straight" is clearly defined for every armwrestler, especially those with messed up elbows), and it has to be easy to identify. For instance, the humerus at a decline for king's move foul is easy to identify because you can directly judge the angle. But for an arm to be fully straight, that is a different point for every armwrestler, and would be hard to identify in the middle of a match regardless of how precise your definition of a fully straightened arm that encompasses all armwrestlers biomechanical limits is.
I'm pretty new to arm wrestling, and I said this like two years ago. I think in the future, the only thing that will evolve from this is broken arms. The only reason Michael was able to beat Genadi was because of the king's move.
the power move of posting this the day Michael and Ermes are on EvW's podcast is pure gold
The kings move like any move is beatable, just win hand control and rise over it - Devon clearly has shown how it is beatable. Arm wrestling is about muscle AND structure and it's not fair to ban a very beatable move just because someone else doesn't have it up their arsenal.
I agree, also Ray said "if it s one degree less than straight it s still bs", but where s the limit. We cannot make this stuff up. Also, there are many different people with different structures and different degrees of bone locks, it s part of the game
@@samuaathere’s nothing straight arm about a kings move though. Its a complete embarrassment that these guys don’t understand what a kings move is but speak authoritatively for all of arm wrestling…
its not technical bs hand-wrestle its ARMwrestling!
nah its unfair, as the logic of the video clearly illustrates.
Simple answer if you're tricep touches to the pad this is Will be faul
Some people's arms are fully extended at like a 160 degree angle. Like devon for example. So u'll have to measure each competitors max extension and judge them by that.
Exactly, the individual physiological differences make this so difficult to enforce. Can't stand what Michael does, but I don't know what the real solution is there.
@@megyskermike idk why people are seeking for a "real solution" when the current ruleset is already near perfect as it is
Kings move is here to stay. Stop crying
Absolutely embarrassing to watch, Genadi and Michael match , how did the refs not call Michael his arm couldn't go any further
@@gk4578 ref did not call it because michael never broke the rule. His humerus angle never went negative
Aren’t most moves where you’re giving up position in a particular angle done so with the aim of more easily achieving another angle? For example, in the flop-press, you give up wrist flection / cupping to more easily get pronation and shoulder position. (I’m not saying if you kick your wrist back, you’re guaranteed to get pronation and shoulder position). We all know the flop-press is a beatable move.
If we look at someone like Jerry, who’s arguably got the best flop in the game, he’ll intentionally give up his wrist. Taking his wrist and fighting his cupping, when he’s not fighting you there, is a mistake because it helps him get into his position. Jerry wants you to top roll him.
Levan* took away Jerry’s ability to get to his position by grabbing low on his wrist in the set up and denying Jerry access to his pronation. *of course, levan is leagues stronger than any mortal, so doing this to Jerry is easier said than done. But my point here is that, there was a tactical adjustment made to best combat the move.
Can tactical adjustments not be made against a kings move? The kings move gives up shoulder position and elbow flection for pronation and rise. Isn’t fighting for shoulder position and elbow flection is a mistake against a kings move?
As for the bone lock issue, yes, a straightened arm cannot go down any more without breaking.
Is a similar story not also true for someone in a defensive hook position where their arm is externally rotated well outside their chest? The only way to bring someone more sideways is to break their arm. In the video they said you can still extend the elbow. Would the equivalent for the kings move not be rising over the kings-movers hand?
I’m not sold that rules have to be changed at all.
I don’t think a straight arm rule would be well received as it could lead to a lot of subjectivity in calls.
Adjusting the height of the pin pad to match the fully straightened position of the arm is an interesting thought.
Please address the leveraging off the back of the pad which is so exploitive in the kings move. You're using the table to absorb the opponent's pressure which directly returns to him. It is like making your opponent have to pin a brick wall. This goes beyond having to "break your opponent", this is breaking yourself and the table. Therefore this offense should be a LOSING POSITION penalty.
Not to mention, this exploit forbids the opponent to move forwards as it will cause you to elbow foul. It is utterly horrific of an exploit to the game.
I completely agree with you! As soon as the arm becomes straight or it’s anatomically clear that this is the maximum extension, the match should be stopped and a foul should be issued. This way, the sport will become much fairer. 🤝🏻🙌🏻
Agreed strait arm should count as loosing position even without pinning.
Agreed, loose the round on straight arm, or raise the pin pad so when the arm is straight and the shoulder is not below the table, the pin is possible
Why the need to translate ? You are perfectly easy to understand.
So deaf people can also follow the content.
maybe some people are watching without sound on?
RUclips also has CC so it is kind of unnecessary.
For deaf
English is good enough all I'm saying
you dont want kings move, you dont want flop press. just say you only want hook arm wrestling.
I'm down with you 100%
Kings move is an unfair move and they should give a foul on it.
Stay strong and love arm wrestling guys❤
I think a new rule could keep the king's move, you can do it without having a straight arm, it's really about the straight arm thing.
Ya all the move should be illegal
I agree completely that there should be some kind of straight arm foul/rule that needs to be enforced. And by straight I don't mean 180 degrees but I mean max level of extention that the specific athlete can achieve. Nice that you did a video on the subject because, right now in the sport, there are very few people being vocal about it and that highlight that issue
Oldest rule in armwrestling is not open arm.
It is hand to the table!
Stop trying to ban or change rule for techniques you are bad at. Learn how to beat it and become a better armwrestle instead.
You dont see Devon whining about flopress. He study it and try to find ways to beat it
Stop be cry babys and take away rule shoulder under table
Yes. The key is to not go balls to the wall immediately to try to flash-pin. Rather stay at center and gain complete hand control and then go sideways.
Its clearly unfair
@@seanlennon5986
I dont think so.
Why do you think its unfair?
Sure genadi lost, but Devon won easily over Mike. Its just a mather of understanding techniques
I agree, a straight arm is a defeated arm. Maybe there should be a time limit of how long an arm is allowed to be open and if someone’s arm is open beyond that time it’s considered by the ref as a defeated arm. Too many use this position to tire out their opponent and to me in my mind has always been a cop out. I also think matches wouldn’t be so long, which would be nice. I also think arguing with the ref prior to the word Go being said, should warrant a penalty foul.
Follow how John B. maintains a respectful example at the table; great “ table manners “ if you will! Arguing with the ref prior before the match should not be aloud. Allowing this makes so much needless drama to an already long match. Just my 5 cents ( 2cents + inflation is 5 cents)😂lol!
Best video adressing cheating in armwrestling.
You obviously never watched the video 😂
They never claimed that it's cheating. Rewatch it again 🤡
Am sorry guys but it's about winning not suffocating the sport with stifling rules to suit your agenda against a move yous don't like is pretty sad to see imo.
If you can straight your opponent arm you have won. Only the rule says you didn't because you haven't touched the pad. Rules should not prevent a legitimate win.
Totally agree. Straight/opened arm/bone lock should = loss or at least a foul. MMT has mastered the angle and position of having a completely straight (as straight as his gets) arm without going below parallel. There's basically nothing you can do about it besides break his arm (realistically impossible in that position) or try to make it too painful. It's armrestling, the stronger arm/hand should win, not the biggest masochist with the best bone lock.
I also feel like MMT gets away with elbow off the back too much with the excuse of "my elbow shape is weird", your elbow doesn't go 20% up your tricep, no matter how weird it is. Refs should put marker on the exact tip of the elbow and not let that go off the pad. The rules need to change or eventually we'll end up in clown matches with both guys just tug of warring with straight arms because it really is the most unfair move once you condition yourself for the pain.
I agree but Michael can still make a mistake going for the pin, losing his hand and the match, as the King's Move is much harder without hand control. They can also fight in the center, not just rely on the bone lock. But still, it makes matches more interesting and entertaining.
I think that the element of having the kings move in our game is an evolvement of the sport which leads to new strengths needed to close matches which makes the sport overall more interesting
In matches that an opponent uses kings move you could return to mid position drag back and hit again + you could have more pressing power (exercises like kamil/morozov is using)
Of course if you just try to brainlessly power through like genadi did against Michael you gas out and loose
I just think that the game now requires more table IQ and different strengths
I even hope more styles and elements will appear because it will just make our sport more complicated and interesting with a higher variety
P.S. both athlete and a fan of arm wrestling
I agree 100%. It’s called Armwrestling. Beat the Arm plain and simple. Stop chasing him over to that side of the table.
Yes. The key is to not go balls to the wall immediately to try to flash-pin. Rather stay at center and gain complete hand control and then go sideways.
Michael Todd explained it very well in his recent review video for his Genadi match in round 1. He openly admitted he would have been pinned earlier had he not made Genadi's wrist go lower as well as turning his wrist to give himself an extra half inch distance from the pad. Without those two things happening, it would have been a pin.
Despite that, Genadi still managed to pin him at times because he managed to keep his own wrist height in the strap. That's something not mentioned here. The difference in wrist height is a big factor, and Michael Todd's ability to swing the wrist position in his favor *before* or during the king's move position should be discussed too.
People want to say MT's arm was straight, but it wasn't until Genadi's surges got him the pin. That inch of difference between is such a small window.
8:40 I agree it seems unfair to the offensive puller.
Seems unfair, but people should just learn to beat the pronation and rise! Train your pronation to be stronger than Mike's. Have a strong enough Cup to contain him. No one is talking about how strong Mike's lifts are. Who can outlift Mike? Perhaps Levan or some of the top 3.
Great discussion. This needs to be worked out. We all recognize a problem here. This is not about attacking Mike.
I am just a viewer. Some deeper thoughts. Does hand control matter at all in a pin? what is a pin? If you can maintain full hand control should that mean you shouldn't be pinned? the size of your triceps and hand control will play a big part in how far above the pin pad you are. I believe a pin is about arm control though the hand will play a part in getting there. Once you loose full arm control you are pinned regardless of your level of hand control.
Ban Kingsmove and just see how many matches Devon and Mike win without it. This is cheating.
Devon would get mad at engin,and Mike would be backing him up😂
Michael Todd is nothing without his cheatmove, he will never be the champ.
Ребят это по факту читерство.и полностью согласен с вами.Это не красит наш спорт.а последователей этой борьбы будет больше когда поймут как это работает.Надо вносить в правила ПРЯМАЯ РУКА= проигрыш!
True. Discuss that in a Meeting with the Referees and Eventmanagers
Finally!!
You are absolutely right ✅️
12:00 Shouldn't we ban Flop-Press because it is a Bone Lock??😂
Not rly, your using alot of muscle to keep that press in place. Have u ever even flop pressed in a match?
@ My point is that it shouldn't be banned just like King's Move. It requires bicep strength, pronation, cupping but people right it off as bone lock.
It seems we already have a solution. The pin pads should be adjustable. Before the match the referee asks to straighten the arm and adjust the pin pad accordingly. Beautiful and simple. ❤
Should add a new rule if arm is straight it's a pin. Kings move is stupid and it's cheating I don't care what anyone says.
Also, if you are able to straighten the opponent's arm - you've just beaten them, regardless if you won the match or not 😉
100% agree. You can even see in the face of the kingsmover, he is not making so much effort and the other person (usually stronger) is struggling with all his life, cause its bone to bone
also and perhaps the most important part is they get to use their forearm as the fulcrum on the pad. that's ridiculous. your elbow should be the base. it takes very little strength if your rest on your forearm and in a hammer curl position.
exactly !!!!! perfectly said. It doesnt take much to kings move cause it requires way less effort and isn't taxing. Automatically. if someone has gotten you in the position that requires you to kings move it clearly means they are stronger
Was Devon not struggling against Levan in the first round when he was under the table and Levan in a flop?
@ struggling is a push lol. Go watch the watch and look at who was red lining and who was relaxed and bare faced. 😂
@nazmitt4510 Do you guys realize that you're just hating on defensive aspect of armwrestling? You can do the same with defensive hook where you hold high and rest with your shoulder turned in to support the hook (i.e. Larratt, Saigov, etc...) The whole idea is to bleed your opponent out while you exert way less effort.
I mean, if it's so impossible to best then why isnt michael todd the best in the world? How did devon beat him so easy? For that to happen it must be because of a counter
If your arm is stretched out completely, you lose. Devon fans CRYING right now! HAHAHAHA
What exactly is a straight arm?
Let's define it.
4:54 no disrespect to you ,but he didn't do everything, thing is that genadi needed to get hand control and rise up knuckle and he didn't had that .
That move make everyone get smarter and stronger
Janis is just stupid to beat a kings move 🤷
To a viewer it also seems that in the kings move the elbow isn't really on the pad even. I mean sure the area between arm and forearm sort of is, but the elbow bone isn't and sometimes those don't seem to get called. That doesn't seem to be the case with Mike though.
That straight arm kings move is not arm wrestling. I don’t care what anyone says. Michael Todd claims it’s not a bone lock. He’s lying. However, no one was complaining when Michael was losing all those matches…
I think the better solution would be to focus on shoulder positioning instead of is the arm straight. I think you should not be able to turn your shoulders past square towards your own pin pad which would necessitate a defense where your arm stays flexed. Any thoughts?
By that logic you have to ban the flop - both extreme inside and extreme outside rely massively on hard structure
totally different move but ok, you do you
No more Todd-Roll either. Side Pressure as they stated at the start of the video also locks with bones and ligaments
@@BenTheBoogiethat’s literally the most basic strategy and basic move in armwrestling. Just pulling to the side in the strap. That’s the least concern in armwrestling there could possibly be lol
This makes absolutely 0 sense. The flop is the riskiest move to pull off. Its compromises your hand and wrist immediately which if you have no idea what you’re doing can lead to a shattered arm within a second. There’s no bone lock there at all.
so you didnt even watch the video where they addressed this, but made a comment anyway, where is the logic in that?